Re: 100% want IPv6 - Was: New Linksys CPE, IPv6 ?
On 31/03/10 23:18 -0400, Patrick Giagnocavo wrote: Dan White wrote: From a content perspective, you may be right. Those with a quickly dwindling supply of v4 addresses will most likely use what they have left for business customers, and for content. However, there will be a time when a significant number of customers will not be able to access your content. ^^ Uncertainty . What percentage of sales are you willing to eat? ^^ Fear . Are you willing to gamble your business on your expectations? Business models will develop that will take advantage of global addressing to end devices. The Next Big (Nth) Thing will. Do you feel that you have a perfect Crystal Ball, or do you want to start hedging your bets now? ^^ Doubt. http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ And on that note, I enclose the following, which was rejected by the RFC Editor, but seems relevant to this discussion, so here's the draft. ... JG -- Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I won't contact you again. - Direct Marketing Ass'n position on e-mail spam(CNN) With 24 million small businesses in the US alone, that's way too many apples. Network Working Group Joe Greco Request for Comments: []sol.net Network Services Category: Experimental April 1, 2010 Expires March 2011 IPv4 Future Allocation Is Limited Unless Registries Expand Status of this Memo Distribution of this memo is unlimited. By submitting this Internet-Draft, each author represents that any applicable patent or other IPR claims of which he or she is aware have been or will be disclosed, and any of which he or she becomes aware will be disclosed, in accordance with Section 6 of BCP 79. Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups. Note that other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet-Drafts. Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as work in progress. The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/1id-abstracts.html The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html. Abstract The momentum of the currently deployed IPv4 network has resulted in a slower transition to IPv6 than expected, and IPv4 address reserves may soon be exhausted. This memo defines an additional class of IPv4 space which may be deployed as an interim solution. Greco, Joe Expires March 2011 FORMFEED[Page 1] Internet Draft IPv4 Class F Space April 1, 2010 Table of Contents 1. Introduction 2 2. Classful Addressing .2 2.1. Expansion via Classful Addressing ..3 2.2. Impact on existing infrastructure ..3 2.3. Negative aspects to extending IPv4 lifetime 4 2.4. Positive aspects to extending IPv4 lifetime 4 2.5. Adjusted estimated IPv4 depletion date .4 2.6. Impact on IPv6 adoption 4 3. Security Considerations .5 4. IANA Considerations .5 5. References ..5 5.1. Informative References .5 5.2. Acknowledgements ...5 1. Introduction The current Internet addressing scheme has been reasonably successful at providing an Internet capable of providing network services to users. However, because of massive growth and the increasing number of networks being connected to the Internet, an ongoing shortage of network numbers has brought us close to the point where assignable IPv4 prefixes are exhausted. To combat this, the Internet is currently undergoing a major transition to IPv6. Despite the looming exhaustion of IPv4 space [IPv4_Report], IPv6 adoption rates have been slower than expected. Policy suggestions to extend the availability of IPv4 have ranged from reclamation of unused legacy IPv4 delegations [ICANN_feb08] to the use of carrier-grade NAT to place most customers of service providers on RFC1918 space [Nishitani]. We propose a different solution to the problem. RFC 1365 [RFC1365] and RFC 1375 [RFC1375] suggest some
Re: 100% want IPv6 - Was: New Linksys CPE, IPv6 ?
I don't have any reference to support the idea that 100% of regular users want IPv6, I don't think they know or care to know what IPv6 is or what's the difference with IPv4 which most probably they don't know either besides few configuration screens of the devices they use. What for sure they eally want is high speed, reliable and omnipresent connectivity. I regularly ask about IPv6 when I find new information about a Home CPE class router because I'm engaged in some activities related to connecting things (which I don't intend to mean that people are also things), particularly in residential applications. Think about a combination of wired/wireless sensors and devices, energy management, security, home automation stuff. On the wireless front we are making some progress (probably too slow) on the IETF with 6LoWPAN, many other applications are gradually switching to ethernet or at least using lite TCP/IP. Then my interest is to have better knowledge about what on that class of equipment is on the pipeline, to deal with questions such as, do the particular application I mentioned above needs to be developed totally with native IPv6 ?, or IPv4 ?, or combination of both ?, do we require translation/tunneling/etc ?, or can defer that function to another device that will take care to send and get the packets from/to the net ? That sort of thing. Just to play with, I purchased a soekris net5501 board (very nice board for that price) and planning to start playing with it using FreeBSD. I took a look at the RouterBoard but the firmware license is too restrictive and there is no much hacking (well there is always a way to hack) you can do, but they are dirty cheap. Cheers Jorge
Re: 100% want IPv6 - Was: New Linksys CPE, IPv6 ?
On 3/31/2010 22:12, Dan White wrote: On 31/03/10 22:14 -0300, jim deleskie wrote: I'm a real life user, I know the difference and I could careless about v6. most anything I want I is on v4 and will still be there long after ( when ever it is) we run out of v4 addresses. If I'm on a From a content perspective, you may be right. Those with a quickly dwindling supply of v4 addresses will most likely use what they have left for business customers, and for content. However, there will be a time when a significant number of customers will not be able to access your content. content provider and I'm putting something new online I want everyone to see, they will find away for all of us with v4 and credit cards to see it, and not be so worried about developing countries or the sub 5% of people in developed countries for now. I'm sure @ some point v6 There is an indication here of the fault that is present in way too much of the world. We have here another example of [engineers|elites|experts|people-with-soap-boxes] think something is a good idea THEREFORE Everybody wants it. My rant here needs refurbishment to account for wireless connections, but I've gotten a lot of mileage out of it. Most people of the world want something to eat. Omitting all of the intermediate steps, the few that have all of their other needs taken care of want smart wall paper. Most care not a whit how the wallpaper does it, they just want when the plug a lamp into it to get light. A toaster, warmed bread. A computer, to be able to exchange email, read the news, watch pornography, or play games. -- Democracy: Three wolves and a sheep voting on the dinner menu. Requiescas in pace o email Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Eppure si rinfresca ICBM Targeting Information: http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml
Re: 100% want IPv6 - Was: New Linksys CPE, IPv6 ?
On 4/1/2010 09:13, Larry Sheldon wrote: Most care not a whit how the wallpaper does it, they just want when the plug a lamp into it to get light. A toaster, warmed bread. A computer, to be able to exchange email, read the news, watch pornography, or play games. Kindasorta related: http://www.4-blockworld.com/2010/03/computers-just-keep-getting-cheaper-and-better.html -- Democracy: Three wolves and a sheep voting on the dinner menu. Requiescas in pace o email Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Eppure si rinfresca ICBM Targeting Information: http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml
Re: 100% want IPv6 - Was: New Linksys CPE, IPv6 ?
On Wed, 31 Mar 2010, Joel Jaeggli wrote: On 03/31/2010 08:52 PM, Patrick Giagnocavo wrote: We have just (anecdotally, empirically) established earlier in this thread, that anything smaller than a mid-sized business, can't even *GET* IPv6 easily (at least in the USA); much less care about it. fwiw, that last time I was at a company that needed a prefix, we wrote up an addressing plan, applied, received an assignment, payed our money and were done. if a pool of public addresses are a resource you need to But were you able to get transit that let you use the address space? I'm sure it's getting better, but as recently as 2 years ago it was near impossible to get for most areas (and most providers, and most colo facilities). -- david raistrickhttp://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html dr...@icantclick.org http://www.expita.com/nomime.html
Re: 100% want IPv6 - Was: New Linksys CPE, IPv6 ?
On Mar 31, 2010, at 8:52 PM, Patrick Giagnocavo wrote: Dan White wrote: Are you willing to gamble your business on your expectations? Business models will develop that will take advantage of global addressing to end devices. The Next Big (Nth) Thing will. Do you feel that you have a perfect Crystal Ball, or do you want to start hedging your bets now? ^^ Doubt. http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ We have just (anecdotally, empirically) established earlier in this thread, that anything smaller than a mid-sized business, can't even *GET* IPv6 easily (at least in the USA); much less care about it. Huh??? I missed that somewhere. The previous paragraph is: Falsehood Uncertainty Doubt Contrary evidence: whois -h whois.arin.net 2620:0:930::/48 -- ARIN Direct Assignment Multihomed Household Qualified under stricter policy than is now in effect. http://www.tunnelbroker.net (yes, I work there, but, you don't have to work there to get a /48 for free). Talking about a crystal ball, in my view, is just a lot of hand-waving that means I don't have a real-world example to point to. http://www.delong.com Real world web site multi-homed, dual-stacked, and running just fine. Talking about the Next Big Thing means that somehow, the NBT will be present without any residential or small business broadband users partaking in it. Sounds like a pretty small piece of the pie for the NBT... Again, conclusions not in evidence. It's easy for anyone who wants it to get IPv6 and IPv6 connectivity. Sure, native IPv6 is a little harder to get, but, overall, I'm doing OK with tunnels of various forms and native will be coming along shortly in many many more places. Owen
Re: 100% want IPv6 - Was: New Linksys CPE, IPv6 ?
On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 23:18:54 EDT, Patrick Giagnocavo said: However, there will be a time when a significant number of customers will not be able to access your content. ^^ Uncertainty . What percentage of sales are you willing to eat? ^^ Fear . Are you willing to gamble your business on your expectations? Business models will develop that will take advantage of global addressing to end devices. The Next Big (Nth) Thing will. Do you feel that you have a perfect Crystal Ball, or do you want to start hedging your bets now? ^^ Doubt. So tell me Patrick - if you're not doing anything about it while it's still FUD, that leaves 2 questions: 1) How long will it take for you to design, test, and deploy once it's no longer FUD? 2) Will your business survive the ensuing pain waiting for deploy to complete? pgpCU6vWLXcAj.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: 100% want IPv6 - Was: New Linksys CPE, IPv6 ?
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:00 AM, Joe Greco jgr...@ns.sol.net wrote: And on that note, I enclose the following, which was rejected by the RFC Editor, but seems relevant to this discussion, so here's the draft. Well of course it was rejected - using 257/8 sets the Evil Bit - you need to make that block Reserved. It may still have some applications as an augmentation to 127/8, so 257.0.0.1 is the address of your Evil Twin.
Re: 100% want IPv6 - Was: New Linksys CPE, IPv6 ?
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 07:58:22 -0500 To: Dan White dwh...@olp.net cc: NANOG nanog@nanog.org From: Jorge Amodio jmamo...@gmail.com Subject: Re: 100% want IPv6 - Was: New Linksys CPE, IPv6 ? Just to play with, I purchased a soekris net5501 board (very nice board for that price) and planning to start playing with it using FreeBSD. I took a look at the RouterBoard but the firmware license is too restrictive and there is no much hacking (well there is always a way to hack) you can do, but they are dirty cheap. Cheers Jorge You can cross-compile openwrt for RouterBoard (check which models, though), and that would mean no license fee for the software. Maybe that voids some warranty, but if warrantys for sub-US$100 equipment are really worth anything, what would anybody offer me for several dozen mostly Linksys with some D-Link, Netgear and at least one each of Dynix and Belkin SOHO routers? Also, the Mikrotik RouterOS license is bundled with the hardware purchase, too, so it might be years before you'd need to spend another US$45 to update that to a new version, if you want to run RouterOS instead of something else. Dale
Note change in IANA registry URLs (was: Re: 100% want IPv6 - Was: New Linksys CPE, IPv6 ?)
On Mar 31, 2010, at 8:22 PM, Dan White wrote: […] http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ I think it's worth pointing out again that the URLs for IANA registries have changed and the old URLs, like the one above, will be going away from next week. Anyone automatically parsing the registries should make sure they adjust their scripts before then. Full details can be found in the announcement: http://www.ietf.org/ibin/c5i?mid=6rid=49gid=0k1=933k2=50520tid=1270181265 and the URL for all registries can always be found from: http://www.iana.org/protocols/ Regards, Leo
Re: 100% want IPv6 - Was: New Linksys CPE, IPv6 ?
On Apr 1, 2010, at 8:13 AM, david raistrick wrote: On Wed, 31 Mar 2010, Joel Jaeggli wrote: On 03/31/2010 08:52 PM, Patrick Giagnocavo wrote: We have just (anecdotally, empirically) established earlier in this thread, that anything smaller than a mid-sized business, can't even *GET* IPv6 easily (at least in the USA); much less care about it. fwiw, that last time I was at a company that needed a prefix, we wrote up an addressing plan, applied, received an assignment, payed our money and were done. if a pool of public addresses are a resource you need to But were you able to get transit that let you use the address space? I'm sure it's getting better, but as recently as 2 years ago it was near impossible to get for most areas (and most providers, and most colo facilities). Worst case, it's easy with a free tunnel now, and, in most cases, better solutions are readily available. Owen
Re: 100% want IPv6 - Was: New Linksys CPE, IPv6 ?
Dan White wrote: On 31/03/10 22:14 -0300, jim deleskie wrote: I'm a real life user, I know the difference and I could careless about v6. most anything I want I is on v4 and will still be there long after ( when ever it is) we run out of v4 addresses. If I'm on a From a content perspective, you may be right. Those with a quickly dwindling supply of v4 addresses will most likely use what they have left for business customers, and for content. However, there will be a time when a significant number of customers will not be able to access your content. ^^ Uncertainty . What percentage of sales are you willing to eat? ^^ Fear . will see the business need, but while I'm expect to have to deploy it for marketing reasons, I hope its someone else's problem but its a must have for real business. Are you willing to gamble your business on your expectations? Business models will develop that will take advantage of global addressing to end devices. The Next Big (Nth) Thing will. Do you feel that you have a perfect Crystal Ball, or do you want to start hedging your bets now? ^^ Doubt. --Patrick
Re: 100% want IPv6 - Was: New Linksys CPE, IPv6 ?
On 31/03/10 23:18 -0400, Patrick Giagnocavo wrote: Dan White wrote: From a content perspective, you may be right. Those with a quickly dwindling supply of v4 addresses will most likely use what they have left for business customers, and for content. However, there will be a time when a significant number of customers will not be able to access your content. ^^ Uncertainty . What percentage of sales are you willing to eat? ^^ Fear . Are you willing to gamble your business on your expectations? Business models will develop that will take advantage of global addressing to end devices. The Next Big (Nth) Thing will. Do you feel that you have a perfect Crystal Ball, or do you want to start hedging your bets now? ^^ Doubt. http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ -- Dan White
Re: 100% want IPv6 - Was: New Linksys CPE, IPv6 ?
Dan White wrote: Are you willing to gamble your business on your expectations? Business models will develop that will take advantage of global addressing to end devices. The Next Big (Nth) Thing will. Do you feel that you have a perfect Crystal Ball, or do you want to start hedging your bets now? ^^ Doubt. http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ We have just (anecdotally, empirically) established earlier in this thread, that anything smaller than a mid-sized business, can't even *GET* IPv6 easily (at least in the USA); much less care about it. Talking about a crystal ball, in my view, is just a lot of hand-waving that means I don't have a real-world example to point to. Talking about the Next Big Thing means that somehow, the NBT will be present without any residential or small business broadband users partaking in it. Sounds like a pretty small piece of the pie for the NBT... For the record, I have no dog in this fight; I just think that the rhetoric / fanboi-ism / advocacy level is just a little too high - emotion rather than reason is taking over in the course of debate, which for me at least, is unwelcome. Cordially Patrick
Re: 100% want IPv6 - Was: New Linksys CPE, IPv6 ?
On 31/03/10 23:52 -0400, Patrick Giagnocavo wrote: We have just (anecdotally, empirically) established earlier in this thread, that anything smaller than a mid-sized business, can't even *GET* IPv6 easily (at least in the USA); much less care about it. Talking about a crystal ball, in my view, is just a lot of hand-waving that means I don't have a real-world example to point to. Talking about the Next Big Thing means that somehow, the NBT will be present without any residential or small business broadband users partaking in it. Sounds like a pretty small piece of the pie for the NBT... For the record, I have no dog in this fight; I just think that the rhetoric / fanboi-ism / advocacy level is just a little too high - emotion rather than reason is taking over in the course of debate, which for me at least, is unwelcome. As a (small) service provider with very stiff competition from much larger providers where I work, we have to have a perfect Crystal Ball, or hedge our bets. Customer needs are constantly changing, and are a constantly moving target. Historically we have a good understanding of what they want. We were the first broadband provider in our footprint for several years, but we have lost customers to competition as well. Technology is most notable when it is disruptive, and is probably most devastating to a company like our's when it is. We will only survive if we are prepared, and that's the same advice I would offer anyone who has a penny to lose in this game. -- Dan White
Re: 100% want IPv6 - Was: New Linksys CPE, IPv6 ?
On 03/31/2010 08:52 PM, Patrick Giagnocavo wrote: We have just (anecdotally, empirically) established earlier in this thread, that anything smaller than a mid-sized business, can't even *GET* IPv6 easily (at least in the USA); much less care about it. fwiw, that last time I was at a company that needed a prefix, we wrote up an addressing plan, applied, received an assignment, payed our money and were done. if a pool of public addresses are a resource you need to run your business you can secure it, and it's simpler and dealing with for example health insurance. Talking about a crystal ball, in my view, is just a lot of hand-waving that means I don't have a real-world example to point to. Talking about the Next Big Thing means that somehow, the NBT will be present without any residential or small business broadband users partaking in it. Sounds like a pretty small piece of the pie for the NBT... For the record, I have no dog in this fight; I just think that the rhetoric / fanboi-ism / advocacy level is just a little too high - emotion rather than reason is taking over in the course of debate, which for me at least, is unwelcome. Cordially Patrick
