Re: Viable Third Option?

[Eric Dugas via NANOG]

I'm referring to AS6461. They're offering IP transit from AS6461 here since
2017 (the takeover of AS15290's facilities in Montreal/rest of Canada).

Eric

On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 8:32 PM Eric Kuhnke  wrote:

> In the context of Montreal, to clarify, when you say Zayo are you
> referring to Zayo Canada (former AT Canada/MTS-Allstream), or AS6461, the
> original Abovenet AS which is Zayo USA's IP transit network?
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 11:17 AM Eric Dugas via NANOG 
> wrote:
>
>> The details you mentioned about Cogent and HE are still right.
>>
>> I'm managing an eyeball network and have Cogent in our blend but I also
>> have three other Tier1s and VERY extensive peering (public and private). We
>> have (from the cheapest to most expensive) Cogent, Telia, Zayo and Tata. I
>> have to mention that we're based in Montreal so less choices compared to
>> your market. The only two other Tier1s available in Montrea is GTT and
>> Lumen/CL/Level3.
>>
>> Cogent: difficult relations, good service overall
>> Telia: excellent relations, good service overall
>> Tata: good relations, good service overall
>> Zayo: difficult relations, good service overall
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> On Feb 17 2021, at 1:49 pm, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>>
>> This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that
>> content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance,
>> I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with
>> any other eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network,
>> getting into the eyeball networks is their objective.
>>
>> My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because
>> people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear
>> VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to
>> get thrown out.
>>
>> Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively
>> unimportant details.
>>
>> There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.
>>
>> Cogent
>>
>>- Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE
>>- Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google
>>- Aggressive sales tactics
>>
>> Hurricane
>>
>>- Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal
>>- Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes
>>
>>
>> I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that
>> operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.
>>
>> What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?
>>
>> Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but
>> when I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the
>> cost of Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're
>> worth it...  and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm
>> quoted transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really
>> have a good argument for it.
>>
>> As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and
>> almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about
>> if there are issues (video streaming).
>>
>> I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>>
>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>>
>> The Brothers WISP 
>>
>>

Re: Viable Third Option?

[Eric Kuhnke]

In the context of Montreal, to clarify, when you say Zayo are you referring
to Zayo Canada (former AT Canada/MTS-Allstream), or AS6461, the original
Abovenet AS which is Zayo USA's IP transit network?


On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 11:17 AM Eric Dugas via NANOG 
wrote:

> The details you mentioned about Cogent and HE are still right.
>
> I'm managing an eyeball network and have Cogent in our blend but I also
> have three other Tier1s and VERY extensive peering (public and private). We
> have (from the cheapest to most expensive) Cogent, Telia, Zayo and Tata. I
> have to mention that we're based in Montreal so less choices compared to
> your market. The only two other Tier1s available in Montrea is GTT and
> Lumen/CL/Level3.
>
> Cogent: difficult relations, good service overall
> Telia: excellent relations, good service overall
> Tata: good relations, good service overall
> Zayo: difficult relations, good service overall
>
> Eric
>
> On Feb 17 2021, at 1:49 pm, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
> This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that
> content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance,
> I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with
> any other eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network,
> getting into the eyeball networks is their objective.
>
> My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because
> people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear
> VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to
> get thrown out.
>
> Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively
> unimportant details.
>
> There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.
>
> Cogent
>
>- Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE
>- Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google
>- Aggressive sales tactics
>
> Hurricane
>
>- Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal
>- Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes
>
>
> I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that
> operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.
>
> What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?
>
> Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when
> I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of
> Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth
> it...  and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted
> transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a
> good argument for it.
>
> As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and
> almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about
> if there are issues (video streaming).
>
> I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>
> The Brothers WISP 
>
>

Re: Viable Third Option?

[David Hubbard]

Yep, unlike 3356 who could care less if you have an outage, NTT never fails to 
have a ticket opened and email to all the contact points within minutes of a 
BGP session going down, asking if we need any assistance.  I’ve been really 
happy with their noc on debugging issues, and just proactive contact in 
general.  The peering seems good, as does the pricing.

Cogent honestly hasn’t been bad, but the v6 thing, to Google of all places, 
just makes their CEO look like a sh*t head; he needs to check his ego and just 
pay for the peering since Google doesn’t appear to be the one who will blink 
first.  I mean how can you seriously sell a circuit to anyone in a data center 
and have a caveat that massive, that no other provider has.



From: Dovid Bender 
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 4:50 PM
To: David Hubbard 
Cc: "nanog@nanog.org" 
Subject: Re: Viable Third Option?

Second for NTT. We have found that their pricing wasn’t to far off from HE. I 
can count on one hand in 10 years how many times we had issues and needed to 
contact them.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 14:06 David Hubbard 
mailto:dhubb...@dino.hostasaurus.com>> wrote:
I’ve been pretty happy with NTT but their POPs can be limited; I’ve had to pick 
up waves to them, which sometimes still comes out ahead.  I’m slowly dropping 
Cogent due to the v6 issues.  I haven’t been able to try HE because they and a 
frequent colo provider I use (Switch) don’t seem to get along.

From: NANOG 
mailto:dino.hostasaurus@nanog.org>>
 on behalf of Mike Hammett mailto:na...@ics-il.net>>
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 11:52 AM
To: NANOG list mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: Viable Third Option?

This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content 
networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have 
little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other 
eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into the 
eyeball networks is their objective.

My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because people 
won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear VERY often. 
I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get thrown out.

Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively 
unimportant details.

There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.

Cogent

  *   Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE
  *   Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google
  *   Aggressive sales tactics
Hurricane

  *   Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal
  *   Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes

I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that 
operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.

What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?

Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I 
talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of 
Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth it...  
and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted transit 
that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a good 
argument for it.

As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost 
all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there are 
issues (video streaming).

I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>
Error! Filename not specified.<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>Error! Filename 
not 
specified.<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>Error! 
Filename not 
specified.<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>Error!
 Filename not specified.<https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
Error! Filename not specified.<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>Error! 
Filename not 
specified.<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>Error! 
Filename not specified.<https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
Error! Filename not specified.<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>Error! 
Filename not 
specified.<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

Re: Viable Third Option?

[Joe Hamby]

I second the motion for NTT.

I would never connect to GTT again.if you want to know 
why.contact offlist.



joe

On 2/17/2021 1:58 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:

Second vote for NTT.

Also, second vote for GTT.

--
TTFN,
patrick


On Feb 17, 2021, at 14:07, David Hubbard 
 wrote:




I’ve been pretty happy with NTT but their POPs can be limited; I’ve 
had to pick up waves to them, which sometimes still comes out ahead.  
I’m slowly dropping Cogent due to the v6 issues.  I haven’t been able 
to try HE because they and a frequent colo provider I use (Switch) 
don’t seem to get along.


*From: *NANOG  
on behalf of Mike Hammett 

*Date: *Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 11:52 AM
*To: *NANOG list 
*Subject: *Viable Third Option?

This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that 
content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For 
instance, I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to 
exchange traffic with any other eyeball network (aside from P2P 
games). For a content network, getting into the eyeball networks is 
their objective.


My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control 
because people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a 
question that I hear VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or 
outdated information to get thrown out.


Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively 
unimportant details.


There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.

Cogent

  * Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE
  * Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google
  * Aggressive sales tactics

Hurricane

  * Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal
  * Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes

I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network 
that operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer 
locations.


What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?

Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but 
when I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x 
the cost of Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for 
why you're worth it...  and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" 
Many times I'm quoted transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE 
and they don't really have a good argument for it.


As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic 
and almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or 
complain about if there are issues (video streaming).


I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
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removed by sender. 
<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>Image 
removed by sender. 
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>Image 
removed by sender. <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>

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--
"However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."

"A Nation that forgets its past has no future."

 -Winston Churchill

Re: Viable Third Option?

[Dovid Bender]

Second for NTT. We have found that their pricing wasn’t to far off from HE.
I can count on one hand in 10 years how many times we had issues and needed
to contact them.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 14:06 David Hubbard 
wrote:

> I’ve been pretty happy with NTT but their POPs can be limited; I’ve had to
> pick up waves to them, which sometimes still comes out ahead.  I’m slowly
> dropping Cogent due to the v6 issues.  I haven’t been able to try HE
> because they and a frequent colo provider I use (Switch) don’t seem to get
> along.
>
>
>
> *From: *NANOG  on
> behalf of Mike Hammett 
> *Date: *Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 11:52 AM
> *To: *NANOG list 
> *Subject: *Viable Third Option?
>
>
>
> This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that
> content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance,
> I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with
> any other eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network,
> getting into the eyeball networks is their objective.
>
>
>
> My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because
> people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear
> VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to
> get thrown out.
>
>
>
> Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively
> unimportant details.
>
>
>
> There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.
>
>
>
> Cogent
>
>- Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE
>- Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google
>- Aggressive sales tactics
>
> Hurricane
>
>- Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal
>- Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes
>
>
>
> I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that
> operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.
>
>
>
> What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?
>
>
>
> Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when
> I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of
> Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth
> it...  and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted
> transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a
> good argument for it.
>
>
>
> As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and
> almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about
> if there are issues (video streaming).
>
>
>
> I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> [image: Image removed by sender.] <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[image:
> Image removed by sender.]
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[image:
> Image removed by sender.]
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[image:
> Image removed by sender.] <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> [image: Image removed by sender.] <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[image:
> Image removed by sender.]
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[image: Image
> removed by sender.] <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> [image: Image removed by sender.]
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[image: Image removed by
> sender.] <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>

Re: Viable Third Option?

[Patrick W. Gilmore]

Second vote for NTT.

Also, second vote for GTT.

-- 
TTFN,
patrick


> On Feb 17, 2021, at 14:07, David Hubbard  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> I’ve been pretty happy with NTT but their POPs can be limited; I’ve had to 
> pick up waves to them, which sometimes still comes out ahead.  I’m slowly 
> dropping Cogent due to the v6 issues.  I haven’t been able to try HE because 
> they and a frequent colo provider I use (Switch) don’t seem to get along.
>  
> From: NANOG  on behalf 
> of Mike Hammett 
> Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 11:52 AM
> To: NANOG list 
> Subject: Viable Third Option?
>  
> This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content 
> networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have 
> little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other 
> eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into 
> the eyeball networks is their objective.
>  
> My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because 
> people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear 
> VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get 
> thrown out.
>  
> Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively 
> unimportant details.
>  
> There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.
>  
> Cogent
> Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE
> Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google
> Aggressive sales tactics
> Hurricane
> Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal
> Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes
>  
> I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that 
> operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.
>  
> What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?
>  
> Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I 
> talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of 
> Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth 
> it...  and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted 
> transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a 
> good argument for it.
>  
> As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost 
> all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there 
> are issues (video streaming).
>  
> I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.
>  
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> 
> The Brothers WISP

Re: Viable Third Option?

[Rod Beck]

I have seen pricing as low as ten US cents on a full 100 GigE port. In other 
words, $10K. Tier 1 provider for what it's worth. I think there are Tier 2 
providers that can compete with Cogent and Hurricane on price.


From: NANOG  on behalf 
of Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 7:49 PM
To: NANOG list 
Subject: Viable Third Option?

This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content 
networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have 
little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other 
eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into the 
eyeball networks is their objective.

My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because people 
won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear VERY often. 
I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get thrown out.

Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively 
unimportant details.

There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.

Cogent

  *   Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE
  *   Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google
  *   Aggressive sales tactics

Hurricane

  *   Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal
  *   Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes

I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that 
operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.

What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?

Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I 
talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of 
Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth it...  
and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted transit 
that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a good 
argument for it.

As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost 
all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there are 
issues (video streaming).

I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

Re: Viable Third Option?

[Ca By]

On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 10:52 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that
> content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance,
> I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with
> any other eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network,
> getting into the eyeball networks is their objective.
>
> My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because
> people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear
> VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to
> get thrown out.
>
> Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively
> unimportant details.
>
> There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.
>
> Cogent
>
>- Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE
>- Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google
>- Aggressive sales tactics
>
> Hurricane
>
>- Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal
>
>
This is only a downside for an ipv6 network that is single home behind
cogent... which is ... already absurdly negligent.

I say avoid both, but lower downsides with HE


>-
>- Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes
>
>
> I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that
> operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.
>
> What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?
>
> Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when
> I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of
> Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth
> it...  and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted
> transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a
> good argument for it.
>
> As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and
> almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about
> if there are issues (video streaming).
>
> I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
> 
>

Re: Viable Third Option?

[Eric Dugas via NANOG]

The details you mentioned about Cogent and HE are still right.

I'm managing an eyeball network and have Cogent in our blend but I also have 
three other Tier1s and VERY extensive peering (public and private). We have 
(from the cheapest to most expensive) Cogent, Telia, Zayo and Tata. I have to 
mention that we're based in Montreal so less choices compared to your market. 
The only two other Tier1s available in Montrea is GTT and Lumen/CL/Level3.
Cogent: difficult relations, good service overall
Telia: excellent relations, good service overall
Tata: good relations, good service overall
Zayo: difficult relations, good service overall

Eric
On Feb 17 2021, at 1:49 pm, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content 
> networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have 
> little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other 
> eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into 
> the eyeball networks is their objective.
>
> My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because 
> people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear 
> VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get 
> thrown out.
>
> Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively 
> unimportant details.
>
> There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.
>
> Cogent
> Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE
>
> Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google
>
> Aggressive sales tactics
>
>
> Hurricane
> Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal
>
> Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes
>
>
>
> I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that 
> operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.
>
> What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?
>
> Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I 
> talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of 
> Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth 
> it... and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted 
> transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a 
> good argument for it.
>
> As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost 
> all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there 
> are issues (video streaming).
>
> I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions (http://www.ics-il.com/)
>
>
>
>
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange (http://www.midwest-ix.com/)
>
>
>
>
> The Brothers WISP (http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/)
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Viable Third Option?

[David Hubbard]

I’ve been pretty happy with NTT but their POPs can be limited; I’ve had to pick 
up waves to them, which sometimes still comes out ahead.  I’m slowly dropping 
Cogent due to the v6 issues.  I haven’t been able to try HE because they and a 
frequent colo provider I use (Switch) don’t seem to get along.

From: NANOG  on behalf 
of Mike Hammett 
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 11:52 AM
To: NANOG list 
Subject: Viable Third Option?

This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content 
networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have 
little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other 
eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into the 
eyeball networks is their objective.

My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because people 
won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear VERY often. 
I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get thrown out.

Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively 
unimportant details.

There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.

Cogent

  *   Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE
  *   Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google
  *   Aggressive sales tactics
Hurricane

  *   Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal
  *   Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes

I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that 
operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.

What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?

Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I 
talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of 
Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth it...  
and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted transit 
that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a good 
argument for it.

As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost 
all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there are 
issues (video streaming).

I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>
[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[Image removed by 
sender.]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[Image 
removed by 
sender.]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[Image
 removed by sender.]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[Image removed by 
sender.]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[Image 
removed by sender.]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
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removed by sender.]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

Re: Viable Third Option?

[Mehmet Akcin]

GTT seems ok. TATA as well. Telia has some issues as far as I see.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 10:49 Mike Hammett  wrote:

> This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that
> content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance,
> I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with
> any other eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network,
> getting into the eyeball networks is their objective.
>
> My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because
> people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear
> VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to
> get thrown out.
>
> Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively
> unimportant details.
>
> There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.
>
> Cogent
>
>- Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE
>- Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google
>- Aggressive sales tactics
>
> Hurricane
>
>- Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal
>- Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes
>
>
> I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that
> operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.
>
> What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?
>
> Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when
> I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of
> Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth
> it...  and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted
> transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a
> good argument for it.
>
> As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and
> almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about
> if there are issues (video streaming).
>
> I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
> 
>
-- 
Mehmet
+1-424-298-1903

Viable Third Option?

[Mike Hammett]

This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content 
networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have 
little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other 
eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into the 
eyeball networks is their objective. 

My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because people 
won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear VERY often. 
I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get thrown out. 


Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively 
unimportant details. 


There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE. 


Cogent 


* Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE 
* Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google 
* Aggressive sales tactics 


Hurricane 


* Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal 
* Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes 



I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that 
operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations. 


What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost? 


Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I 
talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of 
Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth it... 
and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted transit 
that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a good 
argument for it. 


As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost 
all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there are 
issues (video streaming). 


I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP