Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[James Morris]

On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 14:29:44 +
isabel brison  wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Just wondering why you choose not to call yourself an artist. Because
> the random stuff you post looks suspiciously like art to me...
> 
> Isabel


It just popped out naturally. Followed by mixed feelings about "not
being an artist" followed by a period of indecisiveness before falling
back to "I can't be bothered to think about it" (a favourite) and left
it in before clicking send.

It could just be a career thing: I don't want to be an artist. Or maybe
I'm just not that interested in art anymore. Perhaps I've grown out
of the reasons why I used to "want to be an artist" after holding on to
them for too long. Reasons born from teenage obsessions but now I'm
passing my mid 30's I'm unsure I want to continue to develop..

But like I said, the computer programming has become the focus and I'm
rarely interested in coding from an artistic/critical (or even glitch)
perspective. I'm wanting to make good predictable software. When it
glitches/bugs/etc I'm only intersted in it as far as taking a
screen(shot|cast) not much for analysis more for the asthetics and I'm
amused by it.

James.








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Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[Peter ciccariello]

I like that - "The *Creative Formerly Known as Artist*"


- Peter




On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:56 PM, mez breeze  wrote:

> these days i prefer 2 brand myself a "Creative" which is likewise a
> co-opted filthy_lucre_sheenesque label, but still 1 i prefer 2 "artist"
> #IsntThatSad].
>
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 2:18 AM, Simon Biggs wrote:
>
>> I can understand why some people don't want to call themselves artists,
>> even when they are. Mike Kelly, a very successful artist, was quoted as
>> saying that if he'd known art was going to become as corporatised as it has
>> he would never have chosen to be an artist (this quote has been viral on
>> Twitter since his recent death). I wonder what he would have chosen to be -
>> or would he have made up something new? This is what we need...
>>
>> People consider what I do as art and assume I'm an artist. However, like
>> Kelly and James, I became disillusioned with art and the art world a long
>> time ago - not because I've been given a hard time (quite the contrary) but
>> because I am disgusted at what seems to motivate many artists and the
>> people who engage (and run) art professionally. It's become a laundry for
>> dodgy money. Many artists, curators and cultural commentators are happy to
>> join the circus. It is sad.
>>
>> Due to this I now think of what I do as the "practice once known as art".
>> A programme I run, which is nominally in an art college (although for
>> administrative reasons it is located in an architecture department)
>> intentionally does not have the word art in its title (MSc by Research in
>> Interdisciplinary Creative Practices). This allows us to work in ways that
>> a course in our art department, with the expectation of producing artists
>> to work in the art world, would struggle to consider, bound by a
>> pre-determined framework of creative practice and engagement that is "art"
>> as we now know it. Again, it's sad (hope my colleagues in art aren't
>> reading this) to see students being primed as potential cannon-fodder for
>> the art world.
>>
>> best
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>> On 7 Feb 2012, at 14:29, isabel brison wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Just wondering why you choose not to call yourself an artist. Because the
>> random stuff you post looks suspiciously like art to me...
>>
>> Isabel
>>
>>
>> On 6 February 2012 15:04, James Morris  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my website
>>> being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
>>> with spam.
>>>
>>> From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
>>> based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or ws.surbl.org and
>>> it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
>>> which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
>>> blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.
>>>
>>> I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if maybe
>>> something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been argumentative
>>> at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
>>> actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
>>> made up for it.
>>>
>>> The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
>>> degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and due to
>>> that I find little time for anything else.
>>>
>>> With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
>>> impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
>>> I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to develop.
>>>
>>> Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to be art
>>> to post here? I tend to focus on the "creativity" in the title to help
>>> me justify my posts here. I have a memory (real or imagined) of when I
>>> first subscribed of asked Marc if it was ok and he said 'for now'.
>>>
>>> The thing is I don't want to unsubscribe just because I'm not an artist
>>> any more, but the impulses to post *random*stuff* are likely to be
>>> around for a while... Unless people speak up to disuade me and give
>>> good reasons for why and etc
>>>
>>> James.
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://isabelbrison.blogspot.com/
>>  ___
>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
>>
>>
>> Simon Biggs
>> si...@littlepig.org.uk http://www.littlepig.org.uk/ @SimonBiggsUK skype:
>> simonbiggsuk
>>
>> s.bi...@ed.ac.uk Edinburgh College of Art, University of Edinburgh
>> http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ http://www.elmcip.net/ http://
>> www.movingtargets.co.uk/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> NetBeh

Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[dave miller]

tremendous ruth - no apologies for being artists - you give me courage
On Feb 9, 2012 11:51 AM, "ruth catlow"  wrote:

>  first... come off it James!
> surprised by your doubts.
> You are one perfect NBer : )
>
> then...
> Dear Simon et al
>
> on admitting to being an artist
> i hear you but take another approach.
>
> when it comes up
> i brace myself
> take a deep breath
> and call myself an artist.
>
> as a way of being FOR art
> FOR a tradition of willful (rather than submissive) practices - that I am
> not ready to give up on.
> being the most artist that I can be
> which is to be free and connected and alert and part of a conscious
> shaping force of the whole ecology of ideas, beings and things.
>
> re-claiming art now
> and using my elbows the best I can to make some space for future art
> freedoms
>
> i see the encroaching marketization of everything and I refuse to run
> and risk loosing touch with the values and process that have shaped me,
> enriched my world
>
> art continues to generate more ways to be and see myself together with
> others
> i want to keep collaborating with others to create and artify the world.
>
> corporations are running out of land and mineral and energy resources to
> exploit and now it is moving into us, inside us, mining our insides,
> "creativity"  (as an alternative to art) does not provide a safe haven from
> corporatisation.
>
> so i am for art that is critical, indigestible, eloquent, indescribable,
> shapeshifting, cross-realmish, inter-connected, awkward, lumpy,
> unmanageable, critical- and networks give us a great way to do this
> together.
>
> cheers
> Ruth
>
>
> On 07/02/2012 15:18, Simon Biggs wrote:
>
> I can understand why some people don't want to call themselves artists,
> even when they are. Mike Kelly, a very successful artist, was quoted as
> saying that if he'd known art was going to become as corporatised as it has
> he would never have chosen to be an artist (this quote has been viral on
> Twitter since his recent death). I wonder what he would have chosen to be -
> or would he have made up something new? This is what we need...
>
>  People consider what I do as art and assume I'm an artist. However, like
> Kelly and James, I became disillusioned with art and the art world a long
> time ago - not because I've been given a hard time (quite the contrary) but
> because I am disgusted at what seems to motivate many artists and the
> people who engage (and run) art professionally. It's become a laundry for
> dodgy money. Many artists, curators and cultural commentators are happy to
> join the circus. It is sad.
>
>  Due to this I now think of what I do as the "practice once known as
> art". A programme I run, which is nominally in an art college (although for
> administrative reasons it is located in an architecture department)
> intentionally does not have the word art in its title (MSc by Research in
> Interdisciplinary Creative Practices). This allows us to work in ways that
> a course in our art department, with the expectation of producing artists
> to work in the art world, would struggle to consider, bound by a
> pre-determined framework of creative practice and engagement that is "art"
> as we now know it. Again, it's sad (hope my colleagues in art aren't
> reading this) to see students being primed as potential cannon-fodder for
> the art world.
>
>  best
>
>  Simon
>
>
>  On 7 Feb 2012, at 14:29, isabel brison wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Just wondering why you choose not to call yourself an artist. Because the
> random stuff you post looks suspiciously like art to me...
>
> Isabel
>
>
> On 6 February 2012 15:04, James Morris  wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my website
>> being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
>> with spam.
>>
>> From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
>> based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or ws.surbl.org and
>> it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
>> which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
>> blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.
>>
>> I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if maybe
>> something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been argumentative
>> at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
>> actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
>> made up for it.
>>
>> The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
>> degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and due to
>> that I find little time for anything else.
>>
>> With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
>> impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
>> I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to develop.
>>
>> Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to be

Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[Michael Szpakowski]

hear hear!
m.




 From: ruth catlow 
To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity 
 
Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists
 

first... come off it James!
surprised by your doubts. 
You are one perfect NBer : )

then...
Dear Simon et al

on admitting to being an artist
i hear you but take another approach.

when it comes up 
i brace myself 
take a deep breath 
and call myself an artist.

as a way of being FOR art
FOR a tradition of willful (rather than submissive) practices -
  that I am not ready to give up on.
being the most artist that I can be
which is to be free and connected and alert and part of a
  conscious shaping force of the whole ecology of ideas, beings and
  things.

re-claiming art now
and using my elbows the best I can to make some space for future
  art freedoms

i see the encroaching marketization of everything and I refuse to
  run
and risk loosing touch with the values and process that have
  shaped me, enriched my world 

art continues to generate more ways to be and see myself together
  with others
i want to keep collaborating with others to create and artify the
  world.

corporations are running out of land and mineral and energy
  resources to exploit and now it is moving into us, inside us,
  mining our insides,  "creativity"  (as an alternative to art) does
  not provide a safe haven from corporatisation.

so i am for art that is critical, indigestible, eloquent,
  indescribable, shapeshifting, cross-realmish, inter-connected,
  awkward, lumpy, unmanageable, critical- and networks give us a
  great way to do this together.

cheers
Ruth


On 07/02/2012 15:18, Simon Biggs wrote: 
I can understand why some people don't want to call themselves artists, even 
when they are. Mike Kelly, a very successful artist, was quoted as saying that 
if he'd known art was going to become as corporatised as it has he would never 
have chosen to be an artist (this quote has been viral on Twitter since his 
recent death). I wonder what he would have chosen to be - or would he have made 
up something new? This is what we need... 
>
>
>People consider what I do as art and assume I'm an artist. However, like Kelly 
>and James, I became disillusioned with art and the art world a long time ago - 
>not because I've been given a hard time (quite the contrary) but because I am 
>disgusted at what seems to motivate many artists and the people who engage 
>(and run) art professionally. It's become a laundry for dodgy money. Many 
>artists, curators and cultural commentators are happy to join the circus. It 
>is sad.
>
>
>Due to this I now think of what I do as the "practice once known as art". A 
>programme I run, which is nominally in an art college (although for 
>administrative reasons it is located in an architecture department) 
>intentionally does not have the word art in its title (MSc by Research in 
>Interdisciplinary Creative Practices). This allows us to work in ways that a 
>course in our art department, with the expectation of producing artists to 
>work in the art world, would struggle to consider, bound by a pre-determined 
>framework of creative practice and engagement that is "art" as we now know it. 
>Again, it's sad (hope my colleagues in art aren't reading this) to see 
>students being primed as potential cannon-fodder for the art world.
>
>
>best
>
>
>Simon
>
>
>
>
>On 7 Feb 2012, at 14:29, isabel brison wrote:
>
>Hello,
>>
>>Just wondering why you choose not to call yourself an
  artist. Because the random stuff you post looks
  suspiciously like art to me...
>>
>>Isabel 
>>
>>
>>
>>On 6 February 2012 15:04, James Morris  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>I recently noticed that facebook warns people about
  links to my website
>>>being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
>>>with spam.
>>>
>>>From what I can tell, some email clients allow
  filtering of messages
>>>based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or ws.surbl.org and
>>>it is within these lists where my domain is listed in.
  Spam filters
>>>which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a
  reference to a
>>>blacklisted domain is found then the message is
  regarded as spam.
>>>
>>>I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to
  wonder if maybe
>>>something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've
  been argumentative
>>&g

Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[ruth catlow]

first... come off it James!
surprised by your doubts.
You are one perfect NBer : )

then...
Dear Simon et al

on admitting to being an artist
i hear you but take another approach.

when it comes up
i brace myself
take a deep breath
and call myself an artist.

as a way of being FOR art
FOR a tradition of willful (rather than submissive) practices - that I 
am not ready to give up on.

being the most artist that I can be
which is to be free and connected and alert and part of a conscious 
shaping force of the whole ecology of ideas, beings and things.


re-claiming art now
and using my elbows the best I can to make some space for future art 
freedoms


i see the encroaching marketization of everything and I refuse to run
and risk loosing touch with the values and process that have shaped me, 
enriched my world


art continues to generate more ways to be and see myself together with 
others

i want to keep collaborating with others to create and artify the world.

corporations are running out of land and mineral and energy resources to 
exploit and now it is moving into us, inside us, mining our insides,  
"creativity"  (as an alternative to art) does not provide a safe haven 
from corporatisation.


so i am for art that is critical, indigestible, eloquent, indescribable, 
shapeshifting, cross-realmish, inter-connected, awkward, lumpy, 
unmanageable, critical- and networks give us a great way to do this 
together.


cheers
Ruth


On 07/02/2012 15:18, Simon Biggs wrote:
I can understand why some people don't want to call themselves 
artists, even when they are. Mike Kelly, a very successful artist, was 
quoted as saying that if he'd known art was going to become as 
corporatised as it has he would never have chosen to be an artist 
(this quote has been viral on Twitter since his recent death). I 
wonder what he would have chosen to be - or would he have made up 
something new? This is what we need...


People consider what I do as art and assume I'm an artist. However, 
like Kelly and James, I became disillusioned with art and the art 
world a long time ago - not because I've been given a hard time (quite 
the contrary) but because I am disgusted at what seems to motivate 
many artists and the people who engage (and run) art professionally. 
It's become a laundry for dodgy money. Many artists, curators and 
cultural commentators are happy to join the circus. It is sad.


Due to this I now think of what I do as the "practice once known as 
art". A programme I run, which is nominally in an art college 
(although for administrative reasons it is located in an architecture 
department) intentionally does not have the word art in its title (MSc 
by Research in Interdisciplinary Creative Practices). This allows us 
to work in ways that a course in our art department, with the 
expectation of producing artists to work in the art world, would 
struggle to consider, bound by a pre-determined framework of creative 
practice and engagement that is "art" as we now know it. Again, it's 
sad (hope my colleagues in art aren't reading this) to see students 
being primed as potential cannon-fodder for the art world.


best

Simon


On 7 Feb 2012, at 14:29, isabel brison wrote:


Hello,

Just wondering why you choose not to call yourself an artist. Because 
the random stuff you post looks suspiciously like art to me...


Isabel


On 6 February 2012 15:04, James Morris > wrote:



Hi,

I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my
website
being malicious and surbl.org  blacklists my
domain name as associated
with spam.

From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org
 or ws.surbl.org  and
it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.

I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if
maybe
something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been
argumentative
at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
made up for it.

The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and
due to
that I find little time for anything else.

With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to
develop.

Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to
be art
to post here? I tend to focus on the "creativity" in the title to
help
me justify my pos

Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[bob catchpole]

James,

Calling yourself an 'artist' doesn't make you one. There are many such artists 
in the world. Ironically there are those without that self-description who 
don't realise that they are.

Bob




>
> From: James Morris 
>To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity 
> 
>Sent: Monday, 6 February 2012, 16:04
>Subject: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists
> 
>
>Hi,
>
>I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my website
>being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
>with spam.
>
>From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
>based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or ws.surbl.org and
>it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
>which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
>blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.
>
>I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if maybe
>something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been argumentative
>at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
>actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
>made up for it.
>
>The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
>degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and due to
>that I find little time for anything else. 
>
>With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
>impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
>I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to develop.
>
>Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to be art
>to post here? I tend to focus on the "creativity" in the title to help
>me justify my posts here. I have a memory (real or imagined) of when I
>first subscribed of asked Marc if it was ok and he said 'for now'.
>
>The thing is I don't want to unsubscribe just because I'm not an artist
>any more, but the impulses to post *random*stuff* are likely to be
>around for a while... Unless people speak up to disuade me and give
>good reasons for why and etc
>
>James.
>
>
>___
>NetBehaviour mailing list
>NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
>http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
>
>___
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Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[Alan Sondheim]

Simon, I appreciate what you're writing, but I do feel it's idealistic and 
nostalgic. Art is whatever it is, has already had problematic relations to 
money, control, and the corporate. I'm old enough to remember the 'classic 
days' of Soho NY and it wasn't any different.

You get what you want from the artworld, from artists, from art discourse. 
(I just got trashed on nettime for art discourse, as far as I'm concerned, 
as opposed to the discourse of 'tactical media.' So it goes.)

Most of the art I've ever seen has been mediocre, just like the most of 
anything. But for example the recent Matthew Barney show in Chelsea took 
my breath away - as did Nan Goldin's.

I get tired of art trashing. In NY now there are more and more alternative 
spaces again and fantastic work done at some of them. The Gowanus Canal 
area is a case in point. There's a lot of cross-over work. There's a lot 
of arte povera as there always has been.

People have been complaining about art's relation to money, about the good 
old days, about the corporate, about the corruption, about the gallery 
system (for what it's worth, Mary Boone was a student of mine and I've 
been on the boards of non-profits etc. for a long time, on and off), about 
the competition, about rapacious artists; back around 1972 or so, someone 
epoxied the doors of the Soho galleries shut as a protest against what 
you're talking about.

I still learn from painters for that matter. I learn from everyone.

And I feel that if someone doesn't like contemporary art, there's no 
reason really to look at it; talking about the good old days and the death 
of a certain kind of idealism seems a rewriting of history to me, at least 
as it's been in the US.

The great thing about 'art' as far as I'm concerned is that it's always up 
for grabs - in the french expression, always already up for grabs. I'm 
sure there were arguments about who got what wall at Lascaux. You can even 
sense the competition there!

We should celebrate art, as far as I'm concerned. Maybe I'm weak, but I do 
see wonder everywhere - your work, James's work, a LOT of the work on this 
list, on the Net.

On Nettime I see puckered assholes, guarding a rhetorical territory that 
once had something to do with culture. Gone are the days of Cramer's (and 
my) 'Unstable Digest' which found all sorts of amazing things across the 
web - we had free license to put it up.

If anything, issues of censorship, canon- and genre- defining are the real 
problems, but that will pass. We'll all pass and people will still be 
saying that art's not what it used to be!

- Alan

==
eyebeam: http://eyebeam.org/blogs/alansondheim/
email archive http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/
web http://www.alansondheim.org / cell 347-383-8552
music: http://www.espdisk.com/alansondheim/
current text http://www.alansondheim.org/rh.txt
==
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Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[james]

Money valuidates it.

Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange

-Original Message-
From: isabel brison 
Sender: netbehaviour-boun...@netbehaviour.org
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 21:29:42 
To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed 
creativity
Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity

Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

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Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[isabel brison]

Sadly, it all seems to be about money: if you're getting paid to do
something you end up having to play by the rules of who pays, art market or
state funding... if no-one's paying, you can do whatever you like, and call
it whatever you like.

On 7 February 2012 20:56, mez breeze  wrote:

> these days i prefer 2 brand myself a "Creative" which is likewise a
> co-opted filthy_lucre_sheenesque label, but still 1 i prefer 2 "artist"
> #IsntThatSad].
>
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 2:18 AM, Simon Biggs wrote:
>
>> I can understand why some people don't want to call themselves artists,
>> even when they are. Mike Kelly, a very successful artist, was quoted as
>> saying that if he'd known art was going to become as corporatised as it has
>> he would never have chosen to be an artist (this quote has been viral on
>> Twitter since his recent death). I wonder what he would have chosen to be -
>> or would he have made up something new? This is what we need...
>>
>> People consider what I do as art and assume I'm an artist. However, like
>> Kelly and James, I became disillusioned with art and the art world a long
>> time ago - not because I've been given a hard time (quite the contrary) but
>> because I am disgusted at what seems to motivate many artists and the
>> people who engage (and run) art professionally. It's become a laundry for
>> dodgy money. Many artists, curators and cultural commentators are happy to
>> join the circus. It is sad.
>>
>> Due to this I now think of what I do as the "practice once known as art".
>> A programme I run, which is nominally in an art college (although for
>> administrative reasons it is located in an architecture department)
>> intentionally does not have the word art in its title (MSc by Research in
>> Interdisciplinary Creative Practices). This allows us to work in ways that
>> a course in our art department, with the expectation of producing artists
>> to work in the art world, would struggle to consider, bound by a
>> pre-determined framework of creative practice and engagement that is "art"
>> as we now know it. Again, it's sad (hope my colleagues in art aren't
>> reading this) to see students being primed as potential cannon-fodder for
>> the art world.
>>
>> best
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>> On 7 Feb 2012, at 14:29, isabel brison wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Just wondering why you choose not to call yourself an artist. Because the
>> random stuff you post looks suspiciously like art to me...
>>
>> Isabel
>>
>>
>> On 6 February 2012 15:04, James Morris  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my website
>>> being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
>>> with spam.
>>>
>>> From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
>>> based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or ws.surbl.org and
>>> it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
>>> which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
>>> blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.
>>>
>>> I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if maybe
>>> something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been argumentative
>>> at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
>>> actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
>>> made up for it.
>>>
>>> The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
>>> degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and due to
>>> that I find little time for anything else.
>>>
>>> With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
>>> impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
>>> I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to develop.
>>>
>>> Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to be art
>>> to post here? I tend to focus on the "creativity" in the title to help
>>> me justify my posts here. I have a memory (real or imagined) of when I
>>> first subscribed of asked Marc if it was ok and he said 'for now'.
>>>
>>> The thing is I don't want to unsubscribe just because I'm not an artist
>>> any more, but the impulses to post *random*stuff* are likely to be
>>> around for a while... Unless people speak up to disuade me and give
>>> good reasons for why and etc
>>>
>>> James.
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://isabelbrison.blogspot.com/
>>  ___
>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
>>
>>
>> Simon Biggs
>> si...@littlepig.org.uk http://www.littlepig.org.uk/ @SimonBiggsUK skype:
>> simonbiggsuk
>>
>> s.bi...@ed.ac.uk Edinburgh College of Art, University of Edinburgh

Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[mez breeze]

these days i prefer 2 brand myself a "Creative" which is likewise a
co-opted filthy_lucre_sheenesque label, but still 1 i prefer 2 "artist"
#IsntThatSad].

On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 2:18 AM, Simon Biggs  wrote:

> I can understand why some people don't want to call themselves artists,
> even when they are. Mike Kelly, a very successful artist, was quoted as
> saying that if he'd known art was going to become as corporatised as it has
> he would never have chosen to be an artist (this quote has been viral on
> Twitter since his recent death). I wonder what he would have chosen to be -
> or would he have made up something new? This is what we need...
>
> People consider what I do as art and assume I'm an artist. However, like
> Kelly and James, I became disillusioned with art and the art world a long
> time ago - not because I've been given a hard time (quite the contrary) but
> because I am disgusted at what seems to motivate many artists and the
> people who engage (and run) art professionally. It's become a laundry for
> dodgy money. Many artists, curators and cultural commentators are happy to
> join the circus. It is sad.
>
> Due to this I now think of what I do as the "practice once known as art".
> A programme I run, which is nominally in an art college (although for
> administrative reasons it is located in an architecture department)
> intentionally does not have the word art in its title (MSc by Research in
> Interdisciplinary Creative Practices). This allows us to work in ways that
> a course in our art department, with the expectation of producing artists
> to work in the art world, would struggle to consider, bound by a
> pre-determined framework of creative practice and engagement that is "art"
> as we now know it. Again, it's sad (hope my colleagues in art aren't
> reading this) to see students being primed as potential cannon-fodder for
> the art world.
>
> best
>
> Simon
>
>
> On 7 Feb 2012, at 14:29, isabel brison wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Just wondering why you choose not to call yourself an artist. Because the
> random stuff you post looks suspiciously like art to me...
>
> Isabel
>
>
> On 6 February 2012 15:04, James Morris  wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my website
>> being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
>> with spam.
>>
>> From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
>> based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or ws.surbl.org and
>> it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
>> which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
>> blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.
>>
>> I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if maybe
>> something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been argumentative
>> at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
>> actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
>> made up for it.
>>
>> The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
>> degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and due to
>> that I find little time for anything else.
>>
>> With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
>> impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
>> I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to develop.
>>
>> Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to be art
>> to post here? I tend to focus on the "creativity" in the title to help
>> me justify my posts here. I have a memory (real or imagined) of when I
>> first subscribed of asked Marc if it was ok and he said 'for now'.
>>
>> The thing is I don't want to unsubscribe just because I'm not an artist
>> any more, but the impulses to post *random*stuff* are likely to be
>> around for a while... Unless people speak up to disuade me and give
>> good reasons for why and etc
>>
>> James.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://isabelbrison.blogspot.com/
>  ___
> NetBehaviour mailing list
> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
>
>
> Simon Biggs
> si...@littlepig.org.uk http://www.littlepig.org.uk/ @SimonBiggsUK skype:
> simonbiggsuk
>
> s.bi...@ed.ac.uk Edinburgh College of Art, University of Edinburgh
> http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ http://www.elmcip.net/ http://
> www.movingtargets.co.uk/
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> NetBehaviour mailing list
> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>



-- 
Reality Engineer>
Synthetic Environment Strategist>
Game[r + ] Theorist.
::http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/human-readab

Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[Ann Light]

I'm seeing something else that's detrimental for the independent-minded
artist in the last couple of years. Alternative patterns of engagement (and
not just art pop-stars) have thrived in the smaller arts
organisation/centre, where there has been a socially engaged agenda -
whether digital art, or other kinds. But I'm seeing that eroded through the
latest cuts and not only because core funding has gone, but because the
community groups and public sector orgs that - however instrumentally -
benefited from the 'art' can no longer afford to employ its practitioners.
With 'austerity', the more benign forms of support are withering, throwing
people harder into the 'fame or die' binary choice. 

 

What is perhaps heartening is that other forms of making - less critical in
their content, but not necessarily in their structure of engagement - are
appearing through the DIY movements. My solace as someone interested in
maintaining alternative spaces, radical thought and creative practice, is
that young people are not all turning to commercial models of exchange. The
commercial art market is highly visible and rapacious, but, in other
pockets, energies are going somewhere where no commercial models exist at
all.

 

Ann (Not an artist. Someone who hangs around with artists?)

 

From: netbehaviour-boun...@netbehaviour.org
[mailto:netbehaviour-boun...@netbehaviour.org] On Behalf Of Simon Biggs
Sent: 07 February 2012 16:47
To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

 

Art has always had a difficult relationship with power. Its potential for
corruption is nothing new (whether in religion or ideologies of various
kinds - including capitalism). However, it is has become much harder to
avoid the crap. There was a time (in the 70's and 80's) when artist run
centres and experimental creative practices could be undertaken beneath the
radar of the art world mainstream (and out of sight of most of society).
What has happened since then is the mainstreaming of this activity,
especially in the UK where such artists have become household names and
celebrities appearing on TV talk shows and such-like. The present generation
of younger artists have taken this as a model for how the contemporary
artist should engage the public and now aspire to being more like pop
musicians. This is a pervasive pornification of art, as with the rest of our
society, and its inescapability is that is especially depressing.

 

best

 

Simon

 

 

On 7 Feb 2012, at 16:08, isabel brison wrote:





I agree with your portrait of the artworld, but hasn't it always been a bit
dodgy, ever since the days when art was almost exclusively religious
propaganda? 
Not sure if the best way to deal with this is to drop the term "art"
completely, or to just carry on doing it and perhaps ignore the artworld.
After all, it's just an oversized commercial circuit. 



On 7 February 2012 15:18, Simon Biggs  wrote:

I can understand why some people don't want to call themselves artists, even
when they are. Mike Kelly, a very successful artist, was quoted as saying
that if he'd known art was going to become as corporatised as it has he
would never have chosen to be an artist (this quote has been viral on
Twitter since his recent death). I wonder what he would have chosen to be -
or would he have made up something new? This is what we need...

 

People consider what I do as art and assume I'm an artist. However, like
Kelly and James, I became disillusioned with art and the art world a long
time ago - not because I've been given a hard time (quite the contrary) but
because I am disgusted at what seems to motivate many artists and the people
who engage (and run) art professionally. It's become a laundry for dodgy
money. Many artists, curators and cultural commentators are happy to join
the circus. It is sad.

 

Due to this I now think of what I do as the "practice once known as art". A
programme I run, which is nominally in an art college (although for
administrative reasons it is located in an architecture department)
intentionally does not have the word art in its title (MSc by Research in
Interdisciplinary Creative Practices). This allows us to work in ways that a
course in our art department, with the expectation of producing artists to
work in the art world, would struggle to consider, bound by a pre-determined
framework of creative practice and engagement that is "art" as we now know
it. Again, it's sad (hope my colleagues in art aren't reading this) to see
students being primed as potential cannon-fodder for the art world.

 

best

 

Simon

 

 

On 7 Feb 2012, at 14:29, isabel brison wrote:





Hello,

Just wondering why you choose not to call yourself an artist. Because the
random stuff you post looks suspiciously like art to me...

Isabel 



On 6 February 2012 15:04,

Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[james]

Will reply as soon as I've fixed reinstalled linux. Will teach me to ignore 
warnings before updating my system. Cheers, james

Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange
___
NetBehaviour mailing list
NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour

Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[Simon Biggs]

Art has always had a difficult relationship with power. Its potential for 
corruption is nothing new (whether in religion or ideologies of various kinds - 
including capitalism). However, it is has become much harder to avoid the crap. 
There was a time (in the 70's and 80's) when artist run centres and 
experimental creative practices could be undertaken beneath the radar of the 
art world mainstream (and out of sight of most of society). What has happened 
since then is the mainstreaming of this activity, especially in the UK where 
such artists have become household names and celebrities appearing on TV talk 
shows and such-like. The present generation of younger artists have taken this 
as a model for how the contemporary artist should engage the public and now 
aspire to being more like pop musicians. This is a pervasive pornification of 
art, as with the rest of our society, and its inescapability is that is 
especially depressing.

best

Simon


On 7 Feb 2012, at 16:08, isabel brison wrote:

> I agree with your portrait of the artworld, but hasn't it always been a bit 
> dodgy, ever since the days when art was almost exclusively religious 
> propaganda? 
> Not sure if the best way to deal with this is to drop the term "art" 
> completely, or to just carry on doing it and perhaps ignore the artworld. 
> After all, it's just an oversized commercial circuit. 
> 
> 
> On 7 February 2012 15:18, Simon Biggs  wrote:
> I can understand why some people don't want to call themselves artists, even 
> when they are. Mike Kelly, a very successful artist, was quoted as saying 
> that if he'd known art was going to become as corporatised as it has he would 
> never have chosen to be an artist (this quote has been viral on Twitter since 
> his recent death). I wonder what he would have chosen to be - or would he 
> have made up something new? This is what we need...
> 
> People consider what I do as art and assume I'm an artist. However, like 
> Kelly and James, I became disillusioned with art and the art world a long 
> time ago - not because I've been given a hard time (quite the contrary) but 
> because I am disgusted at what seems to motivate many artists and the people 
> who engage (and run) art professionally. It's become a laundry for dodgy 
> money. Many artists, curators and cultural commentators are happy to join the 
> circus. It is sad.
> 
> Due to this I now think of what I do as the "practice once known as art". A 
> programme I run, which is nominally in an art college (although for 
> administrative reasons it is located in an architecture department) 
> intentionally does not have the word art in its title (MSc by Research in 
> Interdisciplinary Creative Practices). This allows us to work in ways that a 
> course in our art department, with the expectation of producing artists to 
> work in the art world, would struggle to consider, bound by a pre-determined 
> framework of creative practice and engagement that is "art" as we now know 
> it. Again, it's sad (hope my colleagues in art aren't reading this) to see 
> students being primed as potential cannon-fodder for the art world.
> 
> best
> 
> Simon
> 
> 
> On 7 Feb 2012, at 14:29, isabel brison wrote:
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Just wondering why you choose not to call yourself an artist. Because the 
>> random stuff you post looks suspiciously like art to me...
>> 
>> Isabel 
>> 
>> 
>> On 6 February 2012 15:04, James Morris  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my website
>> being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
>> with spam.
>> 
>> From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
>> based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or ws.surbl.org and
>> it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
>> which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
>> blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.
>> 
>> I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if maybe
>> something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been argumentative
>> at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
>> actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
>> made up for it.
>> 
>> The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
>> degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and due to
>> that I find little time for anything else.
>> 
>> With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
>> impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
>> I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to develop.
>> 
>> Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to be art
>> to post here? I tend to focus on the "creativity" in the title to help
>> me justify my posts here. I have a memory (real or imagined) of when I
>> first subscribed of asked Marc if it was ok 

Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[Simon Mclennan]

It would seem,
that's the separation between Art and life - which is commonly  
understood to be so.

By many people.
Often I thought I might be doing art - then I realised that it was  
more like obsessive practice of mark making (chalking the streets  
with symbols derived from beetles for example).

Creativity takes many forms.
Outsider 'Art' is done for many reasons - not normally to do with  
exhibitions, marketing and money - this stuff is very often more  
interesting than gallery art - or intellectual art.

However it takes all kindsa creativity to make the world swing.

Simon

On 7 Feb 2012, at 15:18, Simon Biggs wrote:

I can understand why some people don't want to call themselves  
artists, even when they are. Mike Kelly, a very successful artist,  
was quoted as saying that if he'd known art was going to become as  
corporatised as it has he would never have chosen to be an artist  
(this quote has been viral on Twitter since his recent death). I  
wonder what he would have chosen to be - or would he have made up  
something new? This is what we need...


People consider what I do as art and assume I'm an artist. However,  
like Kelly and James, I became disillusioned with art and the art  
world a long time ago - not because I've been given a hard time  
(quite the contrary) but because I am disgusted at what seems to  
motivate many artists and the people who engage (and run) art  
professionally. It's become a laundry for dodgy money. Many  
artists, curators and cultural commentators are happy to join the  
circus. It is sad.


Due to this I now think of what I do as the "practice once known as  
art". A programme I run, which is nominally in an art college  
(although for administrative reasons it is located in an  
architecture department) intentionally does not have the word art  
in its title (MSc by Research in Interdisciplinary Creative  
Practices). This allows us to work in ways that a course in our art  
department, with the expectation of producing artists to work in  
the art world, would struggle to consider, bound by a pre- 
determined framework of creative practice and engagement that is  
"art" as we now know it. Again, it's sad (hope my colleagues in art  
aren't reading this) to see students being primed as potential  
cannon-fodder for the art world.


best

Simon


On 7 Feb 2012, at 14:29, isabel brison wrote:


Hello,

Just wondering why you choose not to call yourself an artist.  
Because the random stuff you post looks suspiciously like art to  
me...


Isabel


On 6 February 2012 15:04, James Morris  wrote:

Hi,

I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my  
website

being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
with spam.

From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or  
ws.surbl.org and

it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.

I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if  
maybe
something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been  
argumentative

at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
made up for it.

The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and  
due to

that I find little time for anything else.

With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to  
develop.


Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to be  
art
to post here? I tend to focus on the "creativity" in the title to  
help
me justify my posts here. I have a memory (real or imagined) of  
when I

first subscribed of asked Marc if it was ok and he said 'for now'.

The thing is I don't want to unsubscribe just because I'm not an  
artist

any more, but the impulses to post *random*stuff* are likely to be
around for a while... Unless people speak up to disuade me and give
good reasons for why and etc

James.


___
NetBehaviour mailing list
NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour



--
http://isabelbrison.blogspot.com/
___
NetBehaviour mailing list
NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour



Simon Biggs
si...@littlepig.org.uk http://www.littlepig.org.uk/ @SimonBiggsUK  
skype: simonbiggsuk


s.bi...@ed.ac.uk Edinburgh College of Art, University of Edinburgh
http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ http://www.elmcip.net/ http:// 
www.movingtargets.co.uk/

Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[isabel brison]

I agree with your portrait of the artworld, but hasn't it always been a bit
dodgy, ever since the days when art was almost exclusively religious
propaganda?
Not sure if the best way to deal with this is to drop the term "art"
completely, or to just carry on doing it and perhaps ignore the artworld.
After all, it's just an oversized commercial circuit.


On 7 February 2012 15:18, Simon Biggs  wrote:

> I can understand why some people don't want to call themselves artists,
> even when they are. Mike Kelly, a very successful artist, was quoted as
> saying that if he'd known art was going to become as corporatised as it has
> he would never have chosen to be an artist (this quote has been viral on
> Twitter since his recent death). I wonder what he would have chosen to be -
> or would he have made up something new? This is what we need...
>
> People consider what I do as art and assume I'm an artist. However, like
> Kelly and James, I became disillusioned with art and the art world a long
> time ago - not because I've been given a hard time (quite the contrary) but
> because I am disgusted at what seems to motivate many artists and the
> people who engage (and run) art professionally. It's become a laundry for
> dodgy money. Many artists, curators and cultural commentators are happy to
> join the circus. It is sad.
>
> Due to this I now think of what I do as the "practice once known as art".
> A programme I run, which is nominally in an art college (although for
> administrative reasons it is located in an architecture department)
> intentionally does not have the word art in its title (MSc by Research in
> Interdisciplinary Creative Practices). This allows us to work in ways that
> a course in our art department, with the expectation of producing artists
> to work in the art world, would struggle to consider, bound by a
> pre-determined framework of creative practice and engagement that is "art"
> as we now know it. Again, it's sad (hope my colleagues in art aren't
> reading this) to see students being primed as potential cannon-fodder for
> the art world.
>
> best
>
> Simon
>
>
> On 7 Feb 2012, at 14:29, isabel brison wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Just wondering why you choose not to call yourself an artist. Because the
> random stuff you post looks suspiciously like art to me...
>
> Isabel
>
>
> On 6 February 2012 15:04, James Morris  wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my website
>> being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
>> with spam.
>>
>> From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
>> based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or ws.surbl.org and
>> it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
>> which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
>> blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.
>>
>> I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if maybe
>> something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been argumentative
>> at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
>> actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
>> made up for it.
>>
>> The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
>> degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and due to
>> that I find little time for anything else.
>>
>> With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
>> impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
>> I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to develop.
>>
>> Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to be art
>> to post here? I tend to focus on the "creativity" in the title to help
>> me justify my posts here. I have a memory (real or imagined) of when I
>> first subscribed of asked Marc if it was ok and he said 'for now'.
>>
>> The thing is I don't want to unsubscribe just because I'm not an artist
>> any more, but the impulses to post *random*stuff* are likely to be
>> around for a while... Unless people speak up to disuade me and give
>> good reasons for why and etc
>>
>> James.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://isabelbrison.blogspot.com/
>  ___
> NetBehaviour mailing list
> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
>
>
> Simon Biggs
> si...@littlepig.org.uk http://www.littlepig.org.uk/ @SimonBiggsUK skype:
> simonbiggsuk
>
> s.bi...@ed.ac.uk Edinburgh College of Art, University of Edinburgh
> http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ http://www.elmcip.net/ http://
> www.movingtargets.co.uk/
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> NetBehaviour mailing list
> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org

Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[Simon Biggs]

I can understand why some people don't want to call themselves artists, even 
when they are. Mike Kelly, a very successful artist, was quoted as saying that 
if he'd known art was going to become as corporatised as it has he would never 
have chosen to be an artist (this quote has been viral on Twitter since his 
recent death). I wonder what he would have chosen to be - or would he have made 
up something new? This is what we need...

People consider what I do as art and assume I'm an artist. However, like Kelly 
and James, I became disillusioned with art and the art world a long time ago - 
not because I've been given a hard time (quite the contrary) but because I am 
disgusted at what seems to motivate many artists and the people who engage (and 
run) art professionally. It's become a laundry for dodgy money. Many artists, 
curators and cultural commentators are happy to join the circus. It is sad.

Due to this I now think of what I do as the "practice once known as art". A 
programme I run, which is nominally in an art college (although for 
administrative reasons it is located in an architecture department) 
intentionally does not have the word art in its title (MSc by Research in 
Interdisciplinary Creative Practices). This allows us to work in ways that a 
course in our art department, with the expectation of producing artists to work 
in the art world, would struggle to consider, bound by a pre-determined 
framework of creative practice and engagement that is "art" as we now know it. 
Again, it's sad (hope my colleagues in art aren't reading this) to see students 
being primed as potential cannon-fodder for the art world.

best

Simon


On 7 Feb 2012, at 14:29, isabel brison wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Just wondering why you choose not to call yourself an artist. Because the 
> random stuff you post looks suspiciously like art to me...
> 
> Isabel 
> 
> 
> On 6 February 2012 15:04, James Morris  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my website
> being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
> with spam.
> 
> From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
> based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or ws.surbl.org and
> it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
> which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
> blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.
> 
> I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if maybe
> something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been argumentative
> at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
> actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
> made up for it.
> 
> The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
> degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and due to
> that I find little time for anything else.
> 
> With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
> impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
> I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to develop.
> 
> Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to be art
> to post here? I tend to focus on the "creativity" in the title to help
> me justify my posts here. I have a memory (real or imagined) of when I
> first subscribed of asked Marc if it was ok and he said 'for now'.
> 
> The thing is I don't want to unsubscribe just because I'm not an artist
> any more, but the impulses to post *random*stuff* are likely to be
> around for a while... Unless people speak up to disuade me and give
> good reasons for why and etc
> 
> James.
> 
> 
> ___
> NetBehaviour mailing list
> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://isabelbrison.blogspot.com/
> ___
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Simon Biggs
si...@littlepig.org.uk http://www.littlepig.org.uk/ @SimonBiggsUK skype: 
simonbiggsuk

s.bi...@ed.ac.uk Edinburgh College of Art, University of Edinburgh
http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ http://www.elmcip.net/ 
http://www.movingtargets.co.uk/




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Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[isabel brison]

Hello,

Just wondering why you choose not to call yourself an artist. Because the
random stuff you post looks suspiciously like art to me...

Isabel


On 6 February 2012 15:04, James Morris  wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my website
> being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
> with spam.
>
> From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
> based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or ws.surbl.org and
> it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
> which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
> blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.
>
> I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if maybe
> something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been argumentative
> at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
> actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
> made up for it.
>
> The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
> degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and due to
> that I find little time for anything else.
>
> With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
> impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
> I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to develop.
>
> Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to be art
> to post here? I tend to focus on the "creativity" in the title to help
> me justify my posts here. I have a memory (real or imagined) of when I
> first subscribed of asked Marc if it was ok and he said 'for now'.
>
> The thing is I don't want to unsubscribe just because I'm not an artist
> any more, but the impulses to post *random*stuff* are likely to be
> around for a while... Unless people speak up to disuade me and give
> good reasons for why and etc
>
> James.
>
>
> ___
> NetBehaviour mailing list
> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>



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Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[Rob Myers]

On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 08:24:32 +, Mark Hancock wrote:
>
> technology/programming never really bothers me. In 'our' neck of the
> art woods, it's the equivalent of having a chat about finding the
> right shade of blue pigment and what a shame that local art stockist
> doesn't allow you to use his materials on other canvas other than 
> ones
> you buy from him (I'm looking at you, ghost of Steve Jobs!)

I do like that comparison.

But now I'm worried about companies manufacturing materially 
incompatible paints to protect their "right" to sell you only the 
colours they think you should be able to use.

Hmmm. Excuse me for a moment, I have a patent to file...

- Rob.

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Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[mez breeze]

james stays. #ThatIsAll.

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Mark Hancock wrote:

> I think it's perfectly fine what you're doing James. I'm not an artist or
> academic either but I enjoy the Netbehaviour neighbourhood and most things
> posted here. The occasional link or discussion to technology/programming
> never really bothers me. In 'our' neck of the art woods, it's the
> equivalent of having a chat about finding the right shade of blue pigment
> and what a shame that local art stockist doesn't allow you to use his
> materials on other canvas other than ones you buy from him (I'm looking at
> you, ghost of Steve Jobs!)
>
> Cheers
>
> M
>
> Mark R Hancock
>
> On 7 Feb 2012, at 07:48, dave miller  wrote:
>
> james you are a central figure for netbehaviour and very much needed
> On Feb 6, 2012 11:14 PM, "manik"  wrote:
>
>> ...YOU ARE ONE OF BEST PHOTOGRAPHER WE'VE SEEN ON NET LAST YEARS...IT'S
>> ORIGINAL AND ROUGH WORK...MANIK...FEBRUARY...2012...
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "James Morris" 
>> To: "NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity"
>> 
>> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 4:04 PM
>> Subject: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my website
>> being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
>> with spam.
>>
>> >From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
>> based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or ws.surbl.org and
>> it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
>> which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
>> blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.
>>
>> I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if maybe
>> something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been argumentative
>> at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
>> actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
>> made up for it.
>>
>> The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
>> degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and due to
>> that I find little time for anything else.
>>
>> With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
>> impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
>> I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to develop.
>>
>> Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to be art
>> to post here? I tend to focus on the "creativity" in the title to help
>> me justify my posts here. I have a memory (real or imagined) of when I
>> first subscribed of asked Marc if it was ok and he said 'for now'.
>>
>> The thing is I don't want to unsubscribe just because I'm not an artist
>> any more, but the impulses to post *random*stuff* are likely to be
>> around for a while... Unless people speak up to disuade me and give
>> good reasons for why and etc
>>
>> James.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
>> ___
>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
> ___
> NetBehaviour mailing list
> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
>
> ___
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> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>



-- 
Reality Engineer>
Synthetic Environment Strategist>
Game[r + ] Theorist.
::http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/human-readable-messages/17341088 ::
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Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[Michael Szpakowski]

You're a key figure here James, part of what makes the netbehaviour landscape 
what it is and such a pleasure...
I always read what you write.

It would be a poorer, paler place without you ( and without your 
forthrightness!)
michael




 From: Mark Hancock 
To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity 
 
Cc: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity 
 
Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2012 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists
 

I think it's perfectly fine what you're doing James. I'm not an artist or 
academic either but I enjoy the Netbehaviour neighbourhood and most things 
posted here. The occasional link or discussion to technology/programming never 
really bothers me. In 'our' neck of the art woods, it's the equivalent of 
having a chat about finding the right shade of blue pigment and what a shame 
that local art stockist doesn't allow you to use his materials on other canvas 
other than ones you buy from him (I'm looking at you, ghost of Steve Jobs!) 

Cheers

M

Mark R Hancock

On 7 Feb 2012, at 07:48, dave miller  wrote:


james you are a central figure for netbehaviour and very much needed
>On Feb 6, 2012 11:14 PM, "manik"  wrote:
>
>...YOU ARE ONE OF BEST PHOTOGRAPHER WE'VE SEEN ON NET LAST YEARS...IT'S
>>ORIGINAL AND ROUGH WORK...MANIK...FEBRUARY...2012...
>>- Original Message -
>>From: "James Morris" 
>>To: "NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity"
>>
>>Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 4:04 PM
>>Subject: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists
>>
>>
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my website
>>being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
>>with spam.
>>
>>>From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
>>based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or ws.surbl.org and
>>it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
>>which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
>>blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.
>>
>>I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if maybe
>>something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been argumentative
>>at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
>>actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
>>made up for it.
>>
>>The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
>>degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and due to
>>that I find little time for anything else.
>>
>>With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
>>impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
>>I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to develop.
>>
>>Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to be art
>>to post here? I tend to focus on the "creativity" in the title to help
>>me justify my posts here. I have a memory (real or imagined) of when I
>>first subscribed of asked Marc if it was ok and he said 'for now'.
>>
>>The thing is I don't want to unsubscribe just because I'm not an artist
>>any more, but the impulses to post *random*stuff* are likely to be
>>around for a while... Unless people speak up to disuade me and give
>>good reasons for why and etc
>>
>>James.
>>
>>
>>___
>>NetBehaviour mailing list
>>NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
>>http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
>>___
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>>http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
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Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[Mark Hancock]

I think it's perfectly fine what you're doing James. I'm not an artist or 
academic either but I enjoy the Netbehaviour neighbourhood and most things 
posted here. The occasional link or discussion to technology/programming never 
really bothers me. In 'our' neck of the art woods, it's the equivalent of 
having a chat about finding the right shade of blue pigment and what a shame 
that local art stockist doesn't allow you to use his materials on other canvas 
other than ones you buy from him (I'm looking at you, ghost of Steve Jobs!) 

Cheers

M

Mark R Hancock

On 7 Feb 2012, at 07:48, dave miller  wrote:

> james you are a central figure for netbehaviour and very much needed
> 
> On Feb 6, 2012 11:14 PM, "manik"  wrote:
> ...YOU ARE ONE OF BEST PHOTOGRAPHER WE'VE SEEN ON NET LAST YEARS...IT'S
> ORIGINAL AND ROUGH WORK...MANIK...FEBRUARY...2012...
> - Original Message -
> From: "James Morris" 
> To: "NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity"
> 
> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 4:04 PM
> Subject: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my website
> being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
> with spam.
> 
> >From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
> based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or ws.surbl.org and
> it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
> which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
> blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.
> 
> I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if maybe
> something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been argumentative
> at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
> actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
> made up for it.
> 
> The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
> degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and due to
> that I find little time for anything else.
> 
> With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
> impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
> I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to develop.
> 
> Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to be art
> to post here? I tend to focus on the "creativity" in the title to help
> me justify my posts here. I have a memory (real or imagined) of when I
> first subscribed of asked Marc if it was ok and he said 'for now'.
> 
> The thing is I don't want to unsubscribe just because I'm not an artist
> any more, but the impulses to post *random*stuff* are likely to be
> around for a while... Unless people speak up to disuade me and give
> good reasons for why and etc
> 
> James.
> 
> 
> ___
> NetBehaviour mailing list
> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
> 
> ___
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Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[dave miller]

james you are a central figure for netbehaviour and very much needed
On Feb 6, 2012 11:14 PM, "manik"  wrote:

> ...YOU ARE ONE OF BEST PHOTOGRAPHER WE'VE SEEN ON NET LAST YEARS...IT'S
> ORIGINAL AND ROUGH WORK...MANIK...FEBRUARY...2012...
> - Original Message -
> From: "James Morris" 
> To: "NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity"
> 
> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 4:04 PM
> Subject: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my website
> being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
> with spam.
>
> >From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
> based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or ws.surbl.org and
> it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
> which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
> blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.
>
> I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if maybe
> something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been argumentative
> at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
> actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
> made up for it.
>
> The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
> degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and due to
> that I find little time for anything else.
>
> With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
> impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
> I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to develop.
>
> Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to be art
> to post here? I tend to focus on the "creativity" in the title to help
> me justify my posts here. I have a memory (real or imagined) of when I
> first subscribed of asked Marc if it was ok and he said 'for now'.
>
> The thing is I don't want to unsubscribe just because I'm not an artist
> any more, but the impulses to post *random*stuff* are likely to be
> around for a while... Unless people speak up to disuade me and give
> good reasons for why and etc
>
> James.
>
>
> ___
> NetBehaviour mailing list
> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
> ___
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> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
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Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[manik]

...YOU ARE ONE OF BEST PHOTOGRAPHER WE'VE SEEN ON NET LAST YEARS...IT'S 
ORIGINAL AND ROUGH WORK...MANIK...FEBRUARY...2012...
- Original Message - 
From: "James Morris" 
To: "NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity" 

Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 4:04 PM
Subject: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists



Hi,

I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my website
being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
with spam.

>From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or ws.surbl.org and
it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.

I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if maybe
something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been argumentative
at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
made up for it.

The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and due to
that I find little time for anything else.

With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to develop.

Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to be art
to post here? I tend to focus on the "creativity" in the title to help
me justify my posts here. I have a memory (real or imagined) of when I
first subscribed of asked Marc if it was ok and he said 'for now'.

The thing is I don't want to unsubscribe just because I'm not an artist
any more, but the impulses to post *random*stuff* are likely to be
around for a while... Unless people speak up to disuade me and give
good reasons for why and etc

James.


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Re: [NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[Alan Sondheim]

Damn, James, your work is great. These kinds of things happen; as you know 
I've been banned from YouTube and no amount of argumentation changed that 
at all. It comes with the territory. I can't imagine you not posting on 
Netbehaviour!

- Alan


On Mon, 6 Feb 2012, James Morris wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my website
> being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
> with spam.
>
> From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
> based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or ws.surbl.org and
> it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
> which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
> blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.
>
> I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if maybe
> something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been argumentative
> at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
> actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
> made up for it.
>
> The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
> degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and due to
> that I find little time for anything else.
>
> With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
> impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
> I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to develop.
>
> Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to be art
> to post here? I tend to focus on the "creativity" in the title to help
> me justify my posts here. I have a memory (real or imagined) of when I
> first subscribed of asked Marc if it was ok and he said 'for now'.
>
> The thing is I don't want to unsubscribe just because I'm not an artist
> any more, but the impulses to post *random*stuff* are likely to be
> around for a while... Unless people speak up to disuade me and give
> good reasons for why and etc
>
> James.
>
>
> ___
> NetBehaviour mailing list
> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org
> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
>

==
eyebeam: http://eyebeam.org/blogs/alansondheim/
email archive http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/
web http://www.alansondheim.org / cell 347-383-8552
music: http://www.espdisk.com/alansondheim/
current text http://www.alansondheim.org/rh.txt
==
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[NetBehaviour] worries about blacklists

[James Morris]

Hi,

I recently noticed that facebook warns people about links to my website
being malicious and surbl.org blacklists my domain name as associated
with spam.

>From what I can tell, some email clients allow filtering of messages
based upon these blacklists such as multi.surbl.org or ws.surbl.org and
it is within these lists where my domain is listed in. Spam filters
which use these lists scan the message _body_ and if a reference to a
blacklisted domain is found then the message is regarded as spam.

I'm rather disappointed about this and it's lead me to wonder if maybe
something I've posted here is to blame. I know I've been argumentative
at times and been reactionary to things I dislike but I hope that the
actual work I've posted (not so much recent work) over the years has
made up for it.

The artist career thing for me never took off and academically the
degree was as far as I got. Programming has become my focus and due to
that I find little time for anything else. 

With that in mind I'm left making posts on the occasional inspired
impulse. Hence the mobile-shot audio-clips and photographs from while
I'm at (factory)work. Or screenshots of software I'm trying to develop.

Seems like I'm producing less and less art. But does it have to be art
to post here? I tend to focus on the "creativity" in the title to help
me justify my posts here. I have a memory (real or imagined) of when I
first subscribed of asked Marc if it was ok and he said 'for now'.

The thing is I don't want to unsubscribe just because I'm not an artist
any more, but the impulses to post *random*stuff* are likely to be
around for a while... Unless people speak up to disuade me and give
good reasons for why and etc

James.


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