Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Hello,
I think Andreas suggestion could be useful; for example if I use just
the Mastodon app to log-in then the user experience is different then if
I log in using Pinafore from my browser. In Pinafore you can switch from
the Nettime instance to other instances, i.e. @writingexchange or
@newsie.social
hope this helps
best
allan
On 12/15/22 18:18, nettime-l-requ...@mail.kein.org wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse (Andreas Broeckmann)
2. Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse (Geoffrey Goodell)
3. Moving Nettime (Michael Benson)
4. Re: Moving Nettime (Molly Hankwitz)
--
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 12:27:17 +0100
From: Andreas Broeckmann
To: Geoffrey Goodell , "nettime-l@mail.kein.org"
Subject: Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Message-ID: <7eb8384a-a84c-456f-8e25-c1ac45d51...@mikro.in-berlin.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Folks,
Maybe, more productively, and as Allan has suggested, people can write
small reports here about how (exactly) they are using the new Mastodon
instance, and what their experiences are. I'd find that useful, and
maybe it's a good time to learn and play together.
Regards,
-a
PS: Geoff, excuse my bluntness, but I think that the tone of your
posting is completely inappropriate. Even for people who don't know the
moderators personally, it must be clear that their commitment to the
list and the project of Nettime is and has been substantial, and to put
that in question in the form that you do here is in itself, for me, a
mark of self-disqualification.
Just two things: I suggest that you strike through the word "we" in your
posting and reconsider again who this acting subject might actually be;
there is certainly no "we" here that can "identify", "create", or
"decide". The composition of this 'connective' is much more feeble than
you seem to think. And you are suggesting to send away the people who
have been holding its foundations together, even though you admit to not
knowing what that involves, technically, mentally, socially,
communication-wise. (Maybe apply for an internship?)
Secondly, it may look like it for you, but Nettime is not and probably
never will be an institution. It was much closer to that status 20 years
ago. Its rules of operation are therefore different.
-a
Am 15.12.22 um 10:53 schrieb Geoffrey Goodell:
Dear Allan and all,
The wishful thinking on the part of the list maintainers was:
(a) that they would be forgiven for growing weary of running the service; AND
(b) that they would also continue to enjoy the self-gratification from
volunteering to provide infrastructure support to the community.
The inconvenient reality is that they cannot have both (a) and (b).
So, I suggest that we identify new list maintainers; after all, we all knew
that time for a successor would eventually come. If this is just a matter of
configuring and running mailman3 on one of my mail servers, then I am happy to
do it myself, although I suspect that there are others here who are more
appropriate for the task.
Suggest that we create a committee of volunteers to receive the knowledge of
how to run the list (e.g.: the list of email addresses and their settings, the
mailman configuration files, the historical archive, and so on) and decide who
should do what. Whether or not this makes some people uncomfortable, Nettime
has become a de facto institution and requires an institutional approach.
Best wishes --
Geoff
On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 at 10:07:16AM +0100, Allan Siegel wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> I think Mastodon has certain things going for it but the experience
is very
> different from the Nettime LIST...
>
> The group who orchestrated the change in environments should have
prepared
> users for the change and described a framework on how this change could
> work. To suddenly basically dissolve one community and imagine it
will just
> reappear someplace else involves some wishful thinking.
>
> best
>
> allan
>
--
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 11:53:25 +0000
From: Geoffrey Goodell
To: Andreas Broeckmann
Cc: "nettime-l@mail.kein.org"
Subject: Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dear
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Dear Andreas, I respectfully disagree with your characterisation of my remarks. For the avoidance of doubt, I believe that the list maintainers do wish to support the community, which is precisely why I believe that they will share the information needed to preserve continuity of the list with their successors. Best wishes -- Geoff On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 at 12:27:17PM +0100, Andreas Broeckmann wrote: > Folks, > > Maybe, more productively, and as Allan has suggested, people can write small > reports here about how (exactly) they are using the new Mastodon instance, > and what their experiences are. I'd find that useful, and maybe it's a good > time to learn and play together. > > Regards, > -a > > > PS: Geoff, excuse my bluntness, but I think that the tone of your posting is > completely inappropriate. Even for people who don't know the moderators > personally, it must be clear that their commitment to the list and the > project of Nettime is and has been substantial, and to put that in question > in the form that you do here is in itself, for me, a mark of > self-disqualification. > > Just two things: I suggest that you strike through the word "we" in your > posting and reconsider again who this acting subject might actually be; > there is certainly no "we" here that can "identify", "create", or "decide". > The composition of this 'connective' is much more feeble than you seem to > think. And you are suggesting to send away the people who have been holding > its foundations together, even though you admit to not knowing what that > involves, technically, mentally, socially, communication-wise. (Maybe apply > for an internship?) > > Secondly, it may look like it for you, but Nettime is not and probably never > will be an institution. It was much closer to that status 20 years ago. Its > rules of operation are therefore different. > > -a > > > Am 15.12.22 um 10:53 schrieb Geoffrey Goodell: > > Dear Allan and all, > > > > The wishful thinking on the part of the list maintainers was: > > > > (a) that they would be forgiven for growing weary of running the service; > > AND > > > > (b) that they would also continue to enjoy the self-gratification from > > volunteering to provide infrastructure support to the community. > > > > The inconvenient reality is that they cannot have both (a) and (b). > > > > So, I suggest that we identify new list maintainers; after all, we all knew > > that time for a successor would eventually come. If this is just a matter > > of > > configuring and running mailman3 on one of my mail servers, then I am happy > > to > > do it myself, although I suspect that there are others here who are more > > appropriate for the task. > > > > Suggest that we create a committee of volunteers to receive the knowledge of > > how to run the list (e.g.: the list of email addresses and their settings, > > the > > mailman configuration files, the historical archive, and so on) and decide > > who > > should do what. Whether or not this makes some people uncomfortable, > > Nettime > > has become a de facto institution and requires an institutional approach. > > > > Best wishes -- > > > > Geoff > > > On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 at 10:07:16AM +0100, Allan Siegel wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > I think Mastodon has certain things going for it but the experience is > very > > different from the Nettime LIST... > > > > The group who orchestrated the change in environments should have prepared > > users for the change and described a framework on how this change could > > work. To suddenly basically dissolve one community and imagine it will > just > > reappear someplace else involves some wishful thinking. > > > > best > > > > allan > > # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Folks, Maybe, more productively, and as Allan has suggested, people can write small reports here about how (exactly) they are using the new Mastodon instance, and what their experiences are. I'd find that useful, and maybe it's a good time to learn and play together. Regards, -a PS: Geoff, excuse my bluntness, but I think that the tone of your posting is completely inappropriate. Even for people who don't know the moderators personally, it must be clear that their commitment to the list and the project of Nettime is and has been substantial, and to put that in question in the form that you do here is in itself, for me, a mark of self-disqualification. Just two things: I suggest that you strike through the word "we" in your posting and reconsider again who this acting subject might actually be; there is certainly no "we" here that can "identify", "create", or "decide". The composition of this 'connective' is much more feeble than you seem to think. And you are suggesting to send away the people who have been holding its foundations together, even though you admit to not knowing what that involves, technically, mentally, socially, communication-wise. (Maybe apply for an internship?) Secondly, it may look like it for you, but Nettime is not and probably never will be an institution. It was much closer to that status 20 years ago. Its rules of operation are therefore different. -a Am 15.12.22 um 10:53 schrieb Geoffrey Goodell: Dear Allan and all, The wishful thinking on the part of the list maintainers was: (a) that they would be forgiven for growing weary of running the service; AND (b) that they would also continue to enjoy the self-gratification from volunteering to provide infrastructure support to the community. The inconvenient reality is that they cannot have both (a) and (b). So, I suggest that we identify new list maintainers; after all, we all knew that time for a successor would eventually come. If this is just a matter of configuring and running mailman3 on one of my mail servers, then I am happy to do it myself, although I suspect that there are others here who are more appropriate for the task. Suggest that we create a committee of volunteers to receive the knowledge of how to run the list (e.g.: the list of email addresses and their settings, the mailman configuration files, the historical archive, and so on) and decide who should do what. Whether or not this makes some people uncomfortable, Nettime has become a de facto institution and requires an institutional approach. Best wishes -- Geoff On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 at 10:07:16AM +0100, Allan Siegel wrote: > Dear All, > > I think Mastodon has certain things going for it but the experience is very > different from the Nettime LIST... > > The group who orchestrated the change in environments should have prepared > users for the change and described a framework on how this change could > work. To suddenly basically dissolve one community and imagine it will just > reappear someplace else involves some wishful thinking. > > best > > allan > # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Dear Allan and all, The wishful thinking on the part of the list maintainers was: (a) that they would be forgiven for growing weary of running the service; AND (b) that they would also continue to enjoy the self-gratification from volunteering to provide infrastructure support to the community. The inconvenient reality is that they cannot have both (a) and (b). So, I suggest that we identify new list maintainers; after all, we all knew that time for a successor would eventually come. If this is just a matter of configuring and running mailman3 on one of my mail servers, then I am happy to do it myself, although I suspect that there are others here who are more appropriate for the task. Suggest that we create a committee of volunteers to receive the knowledge of how to run the list (e.g.: the list of email addresses and their settings, the mailman configuration files, the historical archive, and so on) and decide who should do what. Whether or not this makes some people uncomfortable, Nettime has become a de facto institution and requires an institutional approach. Best wishes -- Geoff On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 at 10:07:16AM +0100, Allan Siegel wrote: > Dear All, > > I think Mastodon has certain things going for it but the experience is very > different from the Nettime LIST... > > The group who orchestrated the change in environments should have prepared > users for the change and described a framework on how this change could > work. To suddenly basically dissolve one community and imagine it will just > reappear someplace else involves some wishful thinking. > > best > > allan > > > On 12/14/22 17:18, Miklos Peternak wrote: > > dear all, > > > > from someone who rarely post to the list, but follows it almost since > > the beginnig -?? as andreas was accurate, i only join him now: > > > > On 2022. 12. 06. 21:20, Andreas Broeckmann wrote: > > > , i know that for me personally the move of nettime away from e-mail > > > would mean that i would, after 25+ years, probably lose the > > > connection. like others here, e-mail is the medium i like for this > > > kind of communication, and i don't see myself scrolling through > > > > > (...) > > & > > > > > > i know that simplicity and longevity are not values in themselves, > > > > i do think, these are values - but agree, there are more values on earth, > > > > by than, to all, > > > > & my very bests, > > > > miklos > > > > > # distributed via : no commercial use without permission > > > #?? ?? is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > > #?? collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > > #?? more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > > > #?? archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org > > > #?? @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: > > > # distributed via : no commercial use without permission > #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Dear All, I think Mastodon has certain things going for it but the experience is very different from the Nettime LIST... The group who orchestrated the change in environments should have prepared users for the change and described a framework on how this change could work. To suddenly basically dissolve one community and imagine it will just reappear someplace else involves some wishful thinking. best allan On 12/14/22 17:18, Miklos Peternak wrote: dear all, from someone who rarely post to the list, but follows it almost since the beginnig - as andreas was accurate, i only join him now: On 2022. 12. 06. 21:20, Andreas Broeckmann wrote: , i know that for me personally the move of nettime away from e-mail would mean that i would, after 25+ years, probably lose the connection. like others here, e-mail is the medium i like for this kind of communication, and i don't see myself scrolling through (...) & i know that simplicity and longevity are not values in themselves, i do think, these are values - but agree, there are more values on earth, by than, to all, & my very bests, miklos # distributed via : no commercial use without permission # is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
dear all, from someone who rarely post to the list, but follows it almost since the beginnig - as andreas was accurate, i only join him now: On 2022. 12. 06. 21:20, Andreas Broeckmann wrote: , i know that for me personally the move of nettime away from e-mail would mean that i would, after 25+ years, probably lose the connection. like others here, e-mail is the medium i like for this kind of communication, and i don't see myself scrolling through (...) & i know that simplicity and longevity are not values in themselves, i do think, these are values - but agree, there are more values on earth, by than, to all, & my very bests, miklos # distributed via : no commercial use without permission # is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: -- Miklos Peternak, Director C3 Center for Culture & Communication Foundation Hungary, 1146 Budapest, Hermina út 22. Phone: +361 4887070 Fax: +361 214 6872 http://www.c3.hu/ # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Hello all, I think it is worth stating, again, that the folks who have initiated this move stated the following: "Nettime was founded at a time when, as quaint as it sounds, email was exciting. That's long since gone for those who experienced it, let alone for those who didn't. Discussion-oriented mailing lists like this are, in a word, over, technically*and* culturally. It's time to think more attentively about whether or how nettime can evolve beyond email and its peculiar 'list culture.'" It is a pretty concise critique and statement of their intentions; this is not simply change for the sake of change but rather an attempt to expand the discursive arena for the subjects/ideas that that are discussed on Nettime. I understand why people like this mailing list because it is a forum rather safely inhabited by friends and lurkers; this is fine for those that don't want to struggle with an developing form of discourse - the fedidiverse to me is kind a room where someone decides to open the windows and and let in some light and circulate the air. The move reflects the recognition of the fact that the dominant corporate, neoliberalized, forms of social media are under greater scrutiny these days (the Musk/Twitter scandal is just one more visible example); I think as a readily available source of non-MSM news Twitter served a valuable function and the current evolution of Mastodon and its numerous 'instances' is an arena not seeking to duplicate Twitter but rather define new forms of defining and practicing social media. To meld Nettime into this universe is not a simple task nor are there ready made formulas but I think it is reflects the endeavor to evolve the '_mailing list_ social media framework' on to an evolving public sphere which has both drawbacks and exciting possibilities. It brings Nettimers to a more diverse intriguing audience which I think is rather critical these days. best allan On 12/6/22 21:20, Andreas Broeckmann wrote: folks, i'll just chip in my 2 cents worth: i hear the different arguments, i see the problems of the nettime project as it is (just look at the apparent demographics of those responding to this thread!), and i would probably abstain from a vote on the issue just because i'm in more than two minds about it. nevertheless, i know that for me personally the move of nettime away from e-mail would mean that i would, after 25+ years, probably lose the connection. like others here, e-mail is the medium i like for this kind of communication, and i don't see myself scrolling through nettime postings on a social media channel. (i'm just presuming that i'd be confronted with "infinite scroll", which is perhaps the most depressing design feature of this still new 21st century. [i fear there's worse to come.]) a slightly more original point i can perhaps make is about technical (and archival) sustainability; check these out: https://nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-9510/msg0.html https://nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-9511/threads.html i know that simplicity and longevity are not values in themselves, but for people like some of us here, who have seen so many platformed promises come and go, it seems (to me) truly weird to believe that some 'instance' of X will be able to deliver better results (or some necessary change), without increasing the number of problems elsewhere, and without delivering this project down one more slippery slope of digital oblivion. (When those messages quoted above were posted and first archived, CompuServe and AOL were still competing internet superpowers...) i guess my attitude is conservative. so what? i don't think that getting older, and growing older together, intra- and inter-generationally, is a problem in itself. - instead, i'd love to hear from the folks who are eager to get onto that other channel, or platform, and who want to sing an 'ode to Mastodon', one that can match the odes to E-Mail that have been sung here over the past days. i'd be glad to be encouraged and told that the grass is really (!) greener over there. -a On 2022-11-30 at 13:30 -05, quoth Ted Byfield mailto:tedbyfi...@gmail.com>>: > It's plainly true that we're hopping on the fediverse bandwagon, > so questioning the wisdom of that kind of precipitous action is, > without question, wise. (It's also true, though less visible, > that it's only the most recent move we've weighed.) But that > implies another question: is 'doing nothing' — or at least > following the same path wise? In the short term, sure, but in > the longer term no, I think. Doing that would all but guarantee > the list's historical weaknesses would only become more > ingrained, and with that the list would become more and more > insular. # distributed via : no commercial use without permission # is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
folks, i'll just chip in my 2 cents worth: i hear the different arguments, i see the problems of the nettime project as it is (just look at the apparent demographics of those responding to this thread!), and i would probably abstain from a vote on the issue just because i'm in more than two minds about it. nevertheless, i know that for me personally the move of nettime away from e-mail would mean that i would, after 25+ years, probably lose the connection. like others here, e-mail is the medium i like for this kind of communication, and i don't see myself scrolling through nettime postings on a social media channel. (i'm just presuming that i'd be confronted with "infinite scroll", which is perhaps the most depressing design feature of this still new 21st century. [i fear there's worse to come.]) a slightly more original point i can perhaps make is about technical (and archival) sustainability; check these out: https://nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-9510/msg0.html https://nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-9511/threads.html i know that simplicity and longevity are not values in themselves, but for people like some of us here, who have seen so many platformed promises come and go, it seems (to me) truly weird to believe that some 'instance' of X will be able to deliver better results (or some necessary change), without increasing the number of problems elsewhere, and without delivering this project down one more slippery slope of digital oblivion. (When those messages quoted above were posted and first archived, CompuServe and AOL were still competing internet superpowers...) i guess my attitude is conservative. so what? i don't think that getting older, and growing older together, intra- and inter-generationally, is a problem in itself. - instead, i'd love to hear from the folks who are eager to get onto that other channel, or platform, and who want to sing an 'ode to Mastodon', one that can match the odes to E-Mail that have been sung here over the past days. i'd be glad to be encouraged and told that the grass is really (!) greener over there. -a On 2022-11-30 at 13:30 -05, quoth Ted Byfield mailto:tedbyfi...@gmail.com>>: > It's plainly true that we're hopping on the fediverse bandwagon, > so questioning the wisdom of that kind of precipitous action is, > without question, wise. (It's also true, though less visible, > that it's only the most recent move we've weighed.) But that > implies another question: is 'doing nothing' — or at least > following the same path wise? In the short term, sure, but in > the longer term no, I think. Doing that would all but guarantee > the list's historical weaknesses would only become more > ingrained, and with that the list would become more and more > insular. # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
I must say I totally agree with the reflections of Paul and others on the value of a mailing list. Paul, you'd be interested to know that nettime was originally a "text-filtering list" [ie, long texts] devoted to the "immanent critique of the networks." The latter has sometimes been carried out extremely well (a standout in memory, years ago, was the collectively generated critique of bitcoin for adopting the neoliberal / Hayekian theory of money). Maybe you can do that on Mastodon. It's always worth trying. So I like the idea of maintaining the list while trying something new. I gather that the mods have been tired of floating this thing for so long - I guess after some 25 years at it for Ted and Felix, the thrill of maintaining an extraordinary forum wears off. We should figure out a way to relieve them of this task. Being mindful that the list has lasted so long because of judicious, but increasingly light, moderation. Best to all, Brian On Tue, Dec 6, 2022, 02:03 paul wrote: > Hello all, > > This is my first time responding on nettime-l, after lurking for a > while (not that long, comparatively - i only discovered this > amazing list about a year or two ago). I always look forward to > reading the well-considered messages, and often humbling levels of > knowledge of literature, history, etc. that are shared here. > > Others have already made all the points i can think of, more > eloquently so, but i think there's value in adding one's voice, if > nothing else. I would be sad to see my favourite mailing list > scuppered. Decent, active mailing lists seem very few and far > between indeed, while email is basically my favourite medium for > online exchange (i admit my bias - i won't repeat the arguments > others have made in favour of email). > > To try and address some of the many valid questions i've seen: > > Ted, you mention nettime stagnating. I ask this in a naive way, > as a newcomer to the list (so forgive me if i should know), but > what is the aim of nettime, exactly? It seems plausible to me > that it might be achieving its aim (for argument's sake, "be a > forum for critical media discussion") quite well even while > stagnating as a medium. I ask because i'm quite suspicious of > arguments that boil down to change being needed for its own sake. > This reminds me of the ethos of contemporary tech companies that > seem to change (often for the worse) user interfaces, products, > entire product lines, etc. while optimising for their bottom line, > rather than the user's utility. > > I want to be explicit that i am definitely not accusing you or the > other mods of somehow doing something for your own benefit, and i > certainly don't feel entitled to this amazing service which is > likely volunteer run at considerable personal cost - i, much like > many others i'm sure, deeply appreciate this forum. I just want > to emphasise that as i see it, being a bastion of stability and > backwards-compatibility (and consume-as-you-wish) can be quite a > radical act in the contemporary online ecosphere. (just random > thoughts: can nettime be radical both initially, before such > online communities were popular, and now, when they often take > place on Web 2.0-type walled garden platforms, but for different > reasons, while doing the same thing?) > > Also, to Jon Lebkowsky's point, i often hear arguments similar in > shape to "my email inbox is a mess, i can't keep up, let's use > ". As someone who curates their email inflow quite > carefully, i respectfully want to ask whether switching to some > other platform would really help with that issue? I have no > difficulty imagining being in e.g. a number of Discord servers and > not keeping up with the influx of messages and profusion of > threads, either. > > I have rambled enough. I, too, would be happy to volunteer > financial support or perhaps my efforts if that's useful, for > maintaining the Mailman infrastructure. I think nettime-l is a > rare treasure on the modern internet, and while of course others > might find value in having their discussions on, say, Mastodon, > would it make sense for those who want to, join some other > instance, and not require the nettime moderators to divide their > efforts running two sets of infrastructure? There are many > Mastodon instances, but very few nettime-l's. > > All the best, and my sincere and unreserved thanks to those who > initiated, and now maintain nettime. Even if you decided to turn > nettime-l off tomorrow, i would still have learned and had my > intellectual life enriched. > > p. > > On 2022-11-30 at 13:30 -05, quoth Ted Byfield > : > > Geoff — > > > > Thanks for this. I agree with the outlines of what you say, and > > with most of the detail too. Felix and Doma have their own > > perspectives, so this is just me. > > > > I'm not sure what you mean about a recurring argument, but > > that's not to suggest you're mistaken. As a mod, I probably see > > nettime through a more technical
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
I like nettime for its long-form discourse (long enough and short enough to
read online).
There is also a longitudinal sense that is absent elsewhere. I share
concerns that this might collapse into the aforementioned sphere of
extinction and should perhaps be preserved/conserved in a living sense
rather than only in an archival framing.
What is missing is the dialogic aspect that used to occur in mailing lists
that social media platforms *can* foster but at the expense of deeper
reflection.
I wonder if the point made about boredom or perhaps just exhausted energy
with the same pattern repeating itself ad infinitum lies at the root of
this and if there is or may be a new generation of mods (post-mods) who
might be willing to step in and of course with every change comes another
spectrum.
The repetitive patterns do seem to work against any generative discourse
now taking place -- so yes, an alternative to the present sounds welcome,
but not to throw away the baby, fossilised though it may seem at times or
stagnant until shaken and stirred.
B
On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 at 11:25, Joseph Rabie wrote:
> Beyond the comparison between email and social media lies that between
> computer and telephone. While some forms of social media were created for
> computer web browsing before the arrival of (so-called) smart phones, today
> the latter constitute the favoured medium of delivery for social media.
> Maybe this explains the generational gap between those who entered digital
> culture via computers, and those who entered via both.
>
> One does have the impression that the telephone functions more directly as
> an appendice for the ego than the computer, and perhaps this explains why
> social media tends (but without generalising) towards a greater level of
> posturing and consequent potential for toxicity.
>
> The 2000 character limit proposed for Mastodon implies that it is more
> orientated towards telephone than computer. Maybe such a limit is good
> because it canvasses for brevity, which is a virtue, but it also forces
> simplification or schematisation of complex discourse, for lack of
> sufficient words, which is damaging.
>
> ("Traditional" discussion forum interfaces like the Well were great.)
>
> Joe.
>
>
>
> Le 30 nov. 2022 à 23:50, Jon Lebkowsky a écrit :
>
> There's a discontinuity in social media posts, and quite a bit of
> attention-shifting, so Mastodon might not be the best solution - though
> migration away from email does make sense. I find that I don't follow email
> lists well - that might just be me, but I get so many thousands of pieces
> of email at this point, much of it escapes my attention.
>
> I always thought nettime would better fit a platform like the WELL's
> linear asynchronous conferencing system, and a Discord server could be like
> that. Mastodon, maybe not, especially to the extent that it's integrated
> with the larger Fediverse and fed toots from many sources. That's a good
> substitute for Twitter, I think, but not necessarily a best platform for
> coherent conversation and focused attention.
>
> I've been AWOL from regular nettime participation for years, partly
> because it's one of many email lists that fall into my various inboxes. I
> do hope the list will continue as a list until a substitute technology
> proves to work.
>
> ~ Jon L.
>
>
> # distributed via : no commercial use without permission
> #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
> # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
> # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
> # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
> # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
--
Bronaċ
# distributed via : no commercial use without permission
#is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
# more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
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# @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Beyond the comparison between email and social media lies that between computer
and telephone. While some forms of social media were created for computer web
browsing before the arrival of (so-called) smart phones, today the latter
constitute the favoured medium of delivery for social media. Maybe this
explains the generational gap between those who entered digital culture via
computers, and those who entered via both.
One does have the impression that the telephone functions more directly as an
appendice for the ego than the computer, and perhaps this explains why social
media tends (but without generalising) towards a greater level of posturing and
consequent potential for toxicity.
The 2000 character limit proposed for Mastodon implies that it is more
orientated towards telephone than computer. Maybe such a limit is good because
it canvasses for brevity, which is a virtue, but it also forces simplification
or schematisation of complex discourse, for lack of sufficient words, which is
damaging.
("Traditional" discussion forum interfaces like the Well were great.)
Joe.
> Le 30 nov. 2022 à 23:50, Jon Lebkowsky a écrit :
>
> There's a discontinuity in social media posts, and quite a bit of
> attention-shifting, so Mastodon might not be the best solution - though
> migration away from email does make sense. I find that I don't follow email
> lists well - that might just be me, but I get so many thousands of pieces of
> email at this point, much of it escapes my attention.
>
> I always thought nettime would better fit a platform like the WELL's linear
> asynchronous conferencing system, and a Discord server could be like that.
> Mastodon, maybe not, especially to the extent that it's integrated with the
> larger Fediverse and fed toots from many sources. That's a good substitute
> for Twitter, I think, but not necessarily a best platform for coherent
> conversation and focused attention.
>
> I've been AWOL from regular nettime participation for years, partly because
> it's one of many email lists that fall into my various inboxes. I do hope the
> list will continue as a list until a substitute technology proves to work.
>
> ~ Jon L.
>
# distributed via : no commercial use without permission
#is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
# more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
# @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Hello, As the Mod Squad said: "This is a chance to move beyond nettime's shrinking in-group, so feel free to invite others. Our goal is to keep tldr to a size where the local timeline remains a useful tool for an actual, not rhetorical, community; how big that is remains to be seen." Communities are evolving political entities shaped and defined by a diversity of inhabitants with a diversity of ideas and forms of expression; how this new iteration defines itself seems to depend on the aspirations and input of the members of a reconfigured NETTIME community and if it shrinks or expands... best allan # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Seriously d.garcia! What a moderators ploy, and all the putti are coming out, shedding angelic little wings of delight about how much we enjoy the lust…im only 25, and rarely post on nettime but do like reading a few cranky masterworks now and again. i got bigger fish to fry…low tech/high concept that is all it is about!!! all that will ever cut through the stickey goo of the last six months to a year…go nettime parlay on… xxxmolly > On Nov 30, 2022, at 7:21 AM, d.gar...@new-tactical-research.co.uk wrote: > > Nothing brings the gently glowing embers of > nettime to life quite like the prospect > of its immanent demise, when the mods launch > one of their cunningly infrequent "shake-em-up" > interventions. > > Whatever the outcome of this latest experiment > the kick-up-the-arse alone makes it worthwhile. > > Thank You Mod-Fathers > > David Garcia > > >> On 2022-11-30 07:31, bernd kasparek wrote: >> Dear nettimers, >> I joined this list some months ago, have never posted but always read >> with great interest and consequential enlightenment. >> I of course fully agree with the argument about technical fixes to >> social problems, but still feel that this is something that should be >> explored more empirically in the context of the usage of this list. >> On the technical points: Yes, mail has become more difficult lately, >> but it is not impossible to run your own server. Furthermore, it is >> possible to run a mailman instance that is in full compliance with >> SPIF, DMARC and DKIM, with the only caveat being the rewriting of the >> from: header (the "... via mailinglistname" you might see on other >> mailing lists). >> But I really wanted to make a different point: I thoroughly enjoy >> nettime as a mailing list, I enjoy the long form mails exceeding 2k >> characters, I enjoy the built-in offline availability my MUA offers >> me, the discoverability, the searchability, the threadedness, etc. I >> am not convinced (but I am open to persuasion) that Mastodon et al. >> offer all that. Fundamentally, I do believe moving to social >> media-esque formats will alter the way we discuss and read each other >> and believe these consequences should be discussed a bit more in-depth >> before making such a move. >> I fully understand that infrastructure maintenance is tedious, boring >> and too often un-gratifying. But maintaining a mastodon instance will >> also be that, once the initial setup is done. The plight of the >> sysadmin is independent from the particular kind of tech she >> maintains. If I can help out there, I'm happy to join the effort. >> best wishes >> Bernd > # distributed via : no commercial use without permission > #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
There's a discontinuity in social media posts, and quite a bit of attention-shifting, so Mastodon might not be the best solution - though migration away from email does make sense. I find that I don't follow email lists well - that might just be me, but I get so many thousands of pieces of email at this point, much of it escapes my attention. I always thought nettime would better fit a platform like the WELL's linear asynchronous conferencing system, and a Discord server could be like that. Mastodon, maybe not, especially to the extent that it's integrated with the larger Fediverse and fed toots from many sources. That's a good substitute for Twitter, I think, but not necessarily a best platform for coherent conversation and focused attention. I've been AWOL from regular nettime participation for years, partly because it's one of many email lists that fall into my various inboxes. I do hope the list will continue as a list until a substitute technology proves to work. ~ Jon L. On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 3:16 PM Petter Ericson wrote: > Hi list, > > Point of order: The fediverse runs on the ActivityPub protocol, which is > specified and standardized in a W3C Recoomendation, which, while not > ideal, and > not covering the server-to-client end of things, still is a good effort, > and at > least as thorough and well-defined as the initial e-mail RFCs. > Standardisation > and avoiding platform lock-in is very important to a lot of people on the > fediverse. > > That being said, having hung around on the fediverse since the _previous_ > standard (OStatus), I agree fully that nettime would in no real way benefit > from moving away from being a mailing list. The mediums are quite > different, > and as you note, there would be a certain amount of friction in moving, > which would necessarily mean people dropping out of the community. Not > ideal. > > Also, I am not sure that you'll necessarily find a hugely different > clientele > on the fediverse compared to people who'd sign up for a mailing list. I'm > in > both categories, obviously, and I would say that the fediverse userbase > skews > elder millennial in general - folks who grew up on the early/pre-platform > internet. I also agree on all the points about solving fundamentally social > problems with technological means. > > Further, my experience from the fediverse is that people are going to post > all > sorts of things to their account, generally, which means that the local > timeline is going to either quickly become relatively unfocused from the > nettime topics, or you're going to have to moderate users comparatively > heavily. You will also miss out on the focused conversations and common > repository of knowledge that can be found in the mailing list archive. > > Alltogether, as a new subscriber to the list and a longtime fediverse > resident, > I'm not a fan. > > All the best, > > /P > -- > Petter Ericson (pett...@accum.se) > @pett...@mastodon.acc.umu.se > > On 30 november, 2022 - Geoffrey Goodell wrote: > > > Dear Doma, Felix, and Ted > > > > I am confused by your recurring argument that the problem with Nettime is > > fundamentally technical in nature, or indeed that there is a problem with > > Nettime at all. Speaking personally, Nettime works well for me. I read > > interesting commentary from people I respect, with the reassurance that > I can > > always add my voice to the symphony. > > > > The fact that I do not post more often is mainly testament to the fact > that I > > am busy with other responsibilities. I am sure that this is true of > others > > here as well. This problem will not suddenly disappear with a shift to a > > different choice of underpinning technology. In fact, it will be > exacerbated, > > because although I run my own e-mail server, the tools for engaging with > the > > so-called 'fediverse' are not part of my workflow. And so, a shift in > > technology will inexorably induce a 'shake out' in which people are > forced to > > either adopt new workflows or face exclusion. I would have thought that > the > > moral foundation of Internet ethics would be incompatible with the use > of force > > in this way. > > > > As far as I know, the argument that 'fediverse' technology, such as that > used > > by Hometown and Mastodon, is superior to e-mail is weak at best and has > never > > been articulated to this group. As far as I know, such technology is in > the > > hands of a handful of software developers and has not been subject to > the same > > rigorous standardisation process of the sort that led to the > establishment of > > e-mail. I suspect that most people on this list did not use e-mail > before > > 1977, by which point RFC 724 was already published [1]. Of course, this > > standard has evolved over the years, in a direction that has benefited > the > > world and is now used by billions of people. As far as I know, there > has not > > yet been a comparable community-based effort to standardise the >
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Hello! Just to raise my hand for "mailing list": I prefer emails and mailing lists since I really like the features of email clients. A large white space for writing is just great, and it is good to write without a limited number of characters. As a side remark: If emails are really that outdated, I would actually prefer XMPP. All the best! Christian Swertz # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Hi list, Point of order: The fediverse runs on the ActivityPub protocol, which is specified and standardized in a W3C Recoomendation, which, while not ideal, and not covering the server-to-client end of things, still is a good effort, and at least as thorough and well-defined as the initial e-mail RFCs. Standardisation and avoiding platform lock-in is very important to a lot of people on the fediverse. That being said, having hung around on the fediverse since the _previous_ standard (OStatus), I agree fully that nettime would in no real way benefit from moving away from being a mailing list. The mediums are quite different, and as you note, there would be a certain amount of friction in moving, which would necessarily mean people dropping out of the community. Not ideal. Also, I am not sure that you'll necessarily find a hugely different clientele on the fediverse compared to people who'd sign up for a mailing list. I'm in both categories, obviously, and I would say that the fediverse userbase skews elder millennial in general - folks who grew up on the early/pre-platform internet. I also agree on all the points about solving fundamentally social problems with technological means. Further, my experience from the fediverse is that people are going to post all sorts of things to their account, generally, which means that the local timeline is going to either quickly become relatively unfocused from the nettime topics, or you're going to have to moderate users comparatively heavily. You will also miss out on the focused conversations and common repository of knowledge that can be found in the mailing list archive. Alltogether, as a new subscriber to the list and a longtime fediverse resident, I'm not a fan. All the best, /P -- Petter Ericson (pett...@accum.se) @pett...@mastodon.acc.umu.se On 30 november, 2022 - Geoffrey Goodell wrote: > Dear Doma, Felix, and Ted > > I am confused by your recurring argument that the problem with Nettime is > fundamentally technical in nature, or indeed that there is a problem with > Nettime at all. Speaking personally, Nettime works well for me. I read > interesting commentary from people I respect, with the reassurance that I can > always add my voice to the symphony. > > The fact that I do not post more often is mainly testament to the fact that I > am busy with other responsibilities. I am sure that this is true of others > here as well. This problem will not suddenly disappear with a shift to a > different choice of underpinning technology. In fact, it will be exacerbated, > because although I run my own e-mail server, the tools for engaging with the > so-called 'fediverse' are not part of my workflow. And so, a shift in > technology will inexorably induce a 'shake out' in which people are forced to > either adopt new workflows or face exclusion. I would have thought that the > moral foundation of Internet ethics would be incompatible with the use of > force > in this way. > > As far as I know, the argument that 'fediverse' technology, such as that used > by Hometown and Mastodon, is superior to e-mail is weak at best and has never > been articulated to this group. As far as I know, such technology is in the > hands of a handful of software developers and has not been subject to the same > rigorous standardisation process of the sort that led to the establishment of > e-mail. I suspect that most people on this list did not use e-mail before > 1977, by which point RFC 724 was already published [1]. Of course, this > standard has evolved over the years, in a direction that has benefited the > world and is now used by billions of people. As far as I know, there has not > yet been a comparable community-based effort to standardise the implementation > of 'fediverse' protocols. Here, we have precisely the sort of platform-based > tyranny by fiat that the Internet pioneers laboured to bury forever. > > Finally, I find the argument that new technology can solve a fundamentally > social problem to be absurd and somewhat hypocritical based on the topic of > discussion on this list. While I am not convinced that the so-called > 'fediverse' is a solution looking for a problem, I am also not convinced that > it will make things better for us. > > Perhaps some of the maintainers of the current infrastructure are bored of the > job to which they volunteered, years ago. In that case, they should step > aside > and leave the task of maintaining this list to others. Surely there are > democratic and less-than-democratic ways to achieve this; let's try something. > Perhaps a call for volunteers might be a start. > > But what I can say with certainty is that if you pack up and go somewhere > else, > not everyone will follow you, and even fewer people will follow if you neglect > to provide a solid argument for why. Whether you like it or not, Nettime is > more than a toy project of yours; it provides a valuable service that works. > > Let's stick
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Dear all, I am grateful for the debate over many years on nettime-l. I also enjoy everything that goes with email as a medium. But I quit all social handles back in 2010 when Geert called to join him on Quit Facebook Day, and I think I won't return to any platform, even if it is run as a community effort. I will continue to read your posts there and elsewhere in my webbrowser, but I am sorry to say that I won't subscribe to any new platform because I just don't like it. I prefer to read mail and news and feeds on my desktop client, as I always did. BTW, we have had a quite similar discussion for many years on Wikipedia about how to win new editors with new technical gadgets vs. retaining old editors who mostly prefer to keep their vintage environment. Most longtime users still prefer the old plain text editor without any extensions over the new WYSIWYG editor, and they also prefer desktop computers over mobile devices. If you want to satisfy both groups you will have to provide both editing environments. The two groups will never really meet in one place in technical terms. If you would close down the vintage features you would lose those who really run Wikipedia as a core community. If you would not develop new features Wikipedia would be much less attractive to new and younger users. Very similar to the dilemma nettime-l seems to face. Best regards, Jürgen. # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
As I’m curious as to how well and how long and how populated the fediverse might end up being in terms of a step beyond corporate social media , I will definitely try the experiment. But I do wonder how all the servers and needed programming can be supported without the horrors connected with advertising that have rendered the corporate versions so destructive. Best, Michael via iPhone, so please ecuse misteaks. > On Nov 30, 2022, at 11:31 AM, Ted Byfield wrote: > > Geoff — > > Thanks for this. I agree with the outlines of what you say, and with most of > the detail too. Felix and Doma have their own perspectives, so this is just > me. > > I'm not sure what you mean about a recurring argument, but that's not to > suggest you're mistaken. As a mod, I probably see nettime through a more > technical lens than most subscribers would, and that's no doubt shaped how > I've talked about the list and its project. That said, I agree the problems > aren't technical in nature, and neither would any 'solutions' be — if > anyone's inclined to believe in 'solutions' (FWIW, I'm not). > > One example, which Felix touched on: the quasi-generational aspect of email, > both relative (when someone ~adopted it) and absolute (how old/young you > are). As we noted in the announcement, it's morphed from a pleasure into > something more like a utility — in part *because* of its standardization, > reliability, etc. Like a lot of nettimers, I've spent decades teaching, and > have a fairly broad experience of students' attitudes to email have become > more negative. Saying it's 'dead' was hyperbole, i.e, an exaggeration with a > seed of truth. Chalk that up to the context: an invitation may say 'happy > holidays' or whatever, but it's not intended as a diktat (though I always > hear a bit of that ideological force too). > > To say that every discussion-oriented mailing list I'm on is graying would be > a serious understatement. They might be fascinating, lively, provocative, > solid, or whatever, but the retirement-home vibe is strong indeed. But in our > case that's just one piece of a puzzle whose picture is very diffuse — with > ~gender / identity issues, regional concentrations, received norms about > relevance and style, etc, etc. I think many would agree the list is great > *and* has problems — or, if you like, could be greater in new ways. > > It's plainly true that we're hopping on the fediverse bandwagon, so > questioning the wisdom of that kind of precipitous action is, without > question, wise. (It's also true, though less visible, that it's only the most > recent move we've weighed.) But that implies another question: is 'doing > nothing' — or at least following the same path wise? In the short term, sure, > but in the longer term no, I think. Doing that would all but guarantee the > list's historical weaknesses would only become more ingrained, and with that > the list would become more and more insular. > > If we had announced we autocratically decided to shut down the list, your > criticism would be spot-on, but we didn't — or at least not quite. We did say > that maintaining both 'infrastructures' seems like it'd be too much for us, > but whatever decisions will be made in that regard can and should be > collective. That's an invitation. We don't know to what exactly, or to whom, > or when, or how, or anything else. > > For me at least, that uncertainty was/is pretty much the essence of this > ~move. It's a risk, but I think nettime's ~stagnation — not just as a list > but as a larger project — is largely due to the fact that we haven't found > ways to take new risks. > > Cheers, > Ted > >> On 29 Nov 2022, at 22:19, Geoffrey Goodell wrote: >> >> I am confused by your recurring argument that the >> problem with Nettime is fundamentally technical in >> nature, or indeed that there is a problem with Nettime >> at all. Speaking personally, Nettime works well for >> me. I read interesting commentary from people I >> respect, with the reassurance that I can always add my >> voice to the symphony. >> >> The fact that I do not post more often is mainly >> testament to the fact that I am busy with other >> responsibilities. I am sure that this is true of >> others here as well. This problem will not suddenly >> disappear with a shift to a different choice of >> underpinning technology. In fact, it will be >> exacerbated, because although I run my own e-mail >> server, the tools for engaging with the so-called >> 'fediverse' are not part of my workflow. And so, a >> shift in technology will inexorably induce a 'shake >> out' in which people are forced to either adopt new >> workflows or face exclusion. I would have thought that >> the moral foundation of Internet ethics would be >> incompatible with the use of force in this way. >> >> As far as I know, the argument that 'fediverse' >> technology, such as that used by Hometown and Mastodon, >> is superior to
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Geoff — Thanks for this. I agree with the outlines of what you say, and with most of the detail too. Felix and Doma have their own perspectives, so this is just me. I'm not sure what you mean about a recurring argument, but that's not to suggest you're mistaken. As a mod, I probably see nettime through a more technical lens than most subscribers would, and that's no doubt shaped how I've talked about the list and its project. That said, I agree the problems aren't technical in nature, and neither would any 'solutions' be — if anyone's inclined to believe in 'solutions' (FWIW, I'm not). One example, which Felix touched on: the quasi-generational aspect of email, both relative (when someone ~adopted it) and absolute (how old/young you are). As we noted in the announcement, it's morphed from a pleasure into something more like a utility — in part *because* of its standardization, reliability, etc. Like a lot of nettimers, I've spent decades teaching, and have a fairly broad experience of students' attitudes to email have become more negative. Saying it's 'dead' was hyperbole, i.e, an exaggeration with a seed of truth. Chalk that up to the context: an invitation may say 'happy holidays' or whatever, but it's not intended as a diktat (though I always hear a bit of that ideological force too). To say that every discussion-oriented mailing list I'm on is graying would be a serious understatement. They might be fascinating, lively, provocative, solid, or whatever, but the retirement-home vibe is strong indeed. But in our case that's just one piece of a puzzle whose picture is very diffuse — with ~gender / identity issues, regional concentrations, received norms about relevance and style, etc, etc. I think many would agree the list is great *and* has problems — or, if you like, could be greater in new ways. It's plainly true that we're hopping on the fediverse bandwagon, so questioning the wisdom of that kind of precipitous action is, without question, wise. (It's also true, though less visible, that it's only the most recent move we've weighed.) But that implies another question: is 'doing nothing' — or at least following the same path wise? In the short term, sure, but in the longer term no, I think. Doing that would all but guarantee the list's historical weaknesses would only become more ingrained, and with that the list would become more and more insular. If we had announced we autocratically decided to shut down the list, your criticism would be spot-on, but we didn't — or at least not quite. We did say that maintaining both 'infrastructures' seems like it'd be too much for us, but whatever decisions will be made in that regard can and should be collective. That's an invitation. We don't know to what exactly, or to whom, or when, or how, or anything else. For me at least, that uncertainty was/is pretty much the essence of this ~move. It's a risk, but I think nettime's ~stagnation — not just as a list but as a larger project — is largely due to the fact that we haven't found ways to take new risks. Cheers, Ted On 29 Nov 2022, at 22:19, Geoffrey Goodell wrote: > I am confused by your recurring argument that the > problem with Nettime is fundamentally technical in > nature, or indeed that there is a problem with Nettime > at all. Speaking personally, Nettime works well for > me. I read interesting commentary from people I > respect, with the reassurance that I can always add my > voice to the symphony. > > The fact that I do not post more often is mainly > testament to the fact that I am busy with other > responsibilities. I am sure that this is true of > others here as well. This problem will not suddenly > disappear with a shift to a different choice of > underpinning technology. In fact, it will be > exacerbated, because although I run my own e-mail > server, the tools for engaging with the so-called > 'fediverse' are not part of my workflow. And so, a > shift in technology will inexorably induce a 'shake > out' in which people are forced to either adopt new > workflows or face exclusion. I would have thought that > the moral foundation of Internet ethics would be > incompatible with the use of force in this way. > > As far as I know, the argument that 'fediverse' > technology, such as that used by Hometown and Mastodon, > is superior to e-mail is weak at best and has never > been articulated to this group. As far as I know, such > technology is in the hands of a handful of software > developers and has not been subject to the same > rigorous standardisation process of the sort that led > to the establishment of e-mail. I suspect that most > people on this list did not use e-mail before 1977, by > which point RFC 724 was already published [1]. Of > course, this standard has evolved over the years, in a > direction that has benefited the world and is now used > by billions of people. As far as I know, there has not > yet been a comparable
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Out of the woodwork we come. My handle is @fl...@social.coop (https://social.coop/@flgnk) which is a cooperatively run instance. I'm not involved in the organization side, but as a coop member I think it is safe to say 'we' raise money for the running of the instance using OpenCollective ( https://opencollective.com/socialcoop ), things are organized and decisions are made through Loomio ( https://www.loomio.com/socialcoop/ ). There is a little more detail on how these pieces fit together here - https://wiki.social.coop/How-to-make-the-fediverse-your-own.html The coop emerged out of group that came together out of a campaign to buy twitter and turn it into a coop. I asked around earlier in the week and found that @nemo...@mamot.fr has been keeping track of collectively organized instances - https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fediparty/wiki/Collectively-owned-instances I've enjoyed the change to Mastodon, I've been finding the pirates, hackers and free culture (an old term) folks that I've missed on twitter. To be honest, it's been refreshing, as there still seems to be some energy about these 'old ideas' that I have not encountered in some time. Maybe it was always there, I just wasn't looking in the right places. There really is a wave of people joining. It makes it a lot easier to switch when you can find people you know there. This is a very useful tool to find your twitter people on Mastodon - https://fedifinder.glitch.me/ I think it's an interesting experiment to have a Nettime instance on Mastodon, and perhaps it could be something more. But keep the list going too. I've been on so many lists that died, it really does take a long time to build up a convivial dynamic among list participants and it would be a shame for that to be lost. Kind Regards Kevin On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 at 16:19, wrote: > > Nothing brings the gently glowing embers of > nettime to life quite like the prospect > of its immanent demise, when the mods launch > one of their cunningly infrequent "shake-em-up" > interventions. > > Whatever the outcome of this latest experiment > the kick-up-the-arse alone makes it worthwhile. > > Thank You Mod-Fathers > > David Garcia > > > On 2022-11-30 07:31, bernd kasparek wrote: > > Dear nettimers, > > > > I joined this list some months ago, have never posted but always read > > with great interest and consequential enlightenment. > > > > I of course fully agree with the argument about technical fixes to > > social problems, but still feel that this is something that should be > > explored more empirically in the context of the usage of this list. > > > > On the technical points: Yes, mail has become more difficult lately, > > but it is not impossible to run your own server. Furthermore, it is > > possible to run a mailman instance that is in full compliance with > > SPIF, DMARC and DKIM, with the only caveat being the rewriting of the > > from: header (the "... via mailinglistname" you might see on other > > mailing lists). > > > > But I really wanted to make a different point: I thoroughly enjoy > > nettime as a mailing list, I enjoy the long form mails exceeding 2k > > characters, I enjoy the built-in offline availability my MUA offers > > me, the discoverability, the searchability, the threadedness, etc. I > > am not convinced (but I am open to persuasion) that Mastodon et al. > > offer all that. Fundamentally, I do believe moving to social > > media-esque formats will alter the way we discuss and read each other > > and believe these consequences should be discussed a bit more in-depth > > before making such a move. > > > > I fully understand that infrastructure maintenance is tedious, boring > > and too often un-gratifying. But maintaining a mastodon instance will > > also be that, once the initial setup is done. The plight of the > > sysadmin is independent from the particular kind of tech she > > maintains. If I can help out there, I'm happy to join the effort. > > > > best wishes > > > > Bernd > > > > > > > # distributed via : no commercial use without permission > #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Nothing brings the gently glowing embers of nettime to life quite like the prospect of its immanent demise, when the mods launch one of their cunningly infrequent "shake-em-up" interventions. Whatever the outcome of this latest experiment the kick-up-the-arse alone makes it worthwhile. Thank You Mod-Fathers David Garcia On 2022-11-30 07:31, bernd kasparek wrote: Dear nettimers, I joined this list some months ago, have never posted but always read with great interest and consequential enlightenment. I of course fully agree with the argument about technical fixes to social problems, but still feel that this is something that should be explored more empirically in the context of the usage of this list. On the technical points: Yes, mail has become more difficult lately, but it is not impossible to run your own server. Furthermore, it is possible to run a mailman instance that is in full compliance with SPIF, DMARC and DKIM, with the only caveat being the rewriting of the from: header (the "... via mailinglistname" you might see on other mailing lists). But I really wanted to make a different point: I thoroughly enjoy nettime as a mailing list, I enjoy the long form mails exceeding 2k characters, I enjoy the built-in offline availability my MUA offers me, the discoverability, the searchability, the threadedness, etc. I am not convinced (but I am open to persuasion) that Mastodon et al. offer all that. Fundamentally, I do believe moving to social media-esque formats will alter the way we discuss and read each other and believe these consequences should be discussed a bit more in-depth before making such a move. I fully understand that infrastructure maintenance is tedious, boring and too often un-gratifying. But maintaining a mastodon instance will also be that, once the initial setup is done. The plight of the sysadmin is independent from the particular kind of tech she maintains. If I can help out there, I'm happy to join the effort. best wishes Bernd # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
On 2022-11-30 01:34, nettime's mod squad wrote: Dear nettimers, Oh wtf why not https://tldr.nettime.org/web/@dk -- Dmytri Kleiner # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Hi Goeffrey, from a technical point of view, the problem with mailing lists is twofold. First, maintaining a mail server has become progressively more work over the years. Second, what a mailman mailing list does is, essentially, rewriting the header, ie making this mail appears as it came from "fe...@openflows.com" when it was actually sent from nettim...@kmx.kein.org. On the level of social communication, this makes sense, but technically, this is what a lots of spammers do as well and many large email providers block such mail. In addition, 'spoofing' headers makes it more likely to land on anti-spam blacklists which one of the reasons for the first point. Socially, the problem is that email as a social (rather then administrational) medium is a bit of a historical artifact. I don't mean only that it's a generational thing, but for many people communication habits have shifted over the last decade or two. Personally, the emails that sit the longest in my inbox, and generate the most personal guilt, are the social ones which take time to answer, which I often don't have. And my impression is that I'm not alone here. I totally agree that it's naive to assume technical solutions to social problems, but sometime some of the social problems are created by the specifics of the technical environment and changing these specifics can help to address them. And, yes, you are right, I'm a bit bored with maintaining the infrastructure as is, so I would rather change it. all the best. Felix On 30.11.22 04:19, Geoffrey Goodell wrote: Dear Doma, Felix, and Ted I am confused by your recurring argument that the problem with Nettime is fundamentally technical in nature, or indeed that there is a problem with Nettime at all. Speaking personally, Nettime works well for me. I read interesting commentary from people I respect, with the reassurance that I can always add my voice to the symphony. The fact that I do not post more often is mainly testament to the fact that I am busy with other responsibilities. I am sure that this is true of others here as well. This problem will not suddenly disappear with a shift to a different choice of underpinning technology. In fact, it will be exacerbated, because although I run my own e-mail server, the tools for engaging with the so-called 'fediverse' are not part of my workflow. And so, a shift in technology will inexorably induce a 'shake out' in which people are forced to either adopt new workflows or face exclusion. I would have thought that the moral foundation of Internet ethics would be incompatible with the use of force in this way. As far as I know, the argument that 'fediverse' technology, such as that used by Hometown and Mastodon, is superior to e-mail is weak at best and has never been articulated to this group. As far as I know, such technology is in the hands of a handful of software developers and has not been subject to the same rigorous standardisation process of the sort that led to the establishment of e-mail. I suspect that most people on this list did not use e-mail before 1977, by which point RFC 724 was already published [1]. Of course, this standard has evolved over the years, in a direction that has benefited the world and is now used by billions of people. As far as I know, there has not yet been a comparable community-based effort to standardise the implementation of 'fediverse' protocols. Here, we have precisely the sort of platform-based tyranny by fiat that the Internet pioneers laboured to bury forever. Finally, I find the argument that new technology can solve a fundamentally social problem to be absurd and somewhat hypocritical based on the topic of discussion on this list. While I am not convinced that the so-called 'fediverse' is a solution looking for a problem, I am also not convinced that it will make things better for us. Perhaps some of the maintainers of the current infrastructure are bored of the job to which they volunteered, years ago. In that case, they should step aside and leave the task of maintaining this list to others. Surely there are democratic and less-than-democratic ways to achieve this; let's try something. Perhaps a call for volunteers might be a start. But what I can say with certainty is that if you pack up and go somewhere else, not everyone will follow you, and even fewer people will follow if you neglect to provide a solid argument for why. Whether you like it or not, Nettime is more than a toy project of yours; it provides a valuable service that works. Let's stick together. Best wishes -- Geoff [1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc724 On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 11:34:35PM -0100, nettime's mod squad wrote: Dear nettimers, Nettime was founded at a time when, as quaint as it sounds, email was exciting. That's long since gone for those who experienced it, let alone for those who didn't. Discussion-oriented mailing lists like this are, in a word, over, technically
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Hello, This is a good move with exciting possibilities. The fediverse is in an expansive mood right now with a massive influx of people; an intensely evolving social space with strong anti-corporate sensibilities. A forest with trees, paths to be explored - a refreshing landscape with a different communication toolbox (or maybe something from the past now reconfigured?). best allan On 11/30/22 01:34, nettime's mod squad wrote: Dear nettimers, Nettime was founded at a time when, as quaint as it sounds, email was exciting. That's long since gone for those who experienced it, let alone for those who didn't. Discussion-oriented mailing lists like this are, in a word, over, technically *and* culturally. It's time to think more attentively about whether or how nettime can evolve beyond email and its peculiar 'list culture.' And it's not just email. The edifices that have displaced and replaced lists are on the rocks too. Twitter is widely thought to be going over a cliff as Facebook, already graying, sinks under the weight of its "Metaverse." As more and more people cast around for alternatives, net.critique has become a bit of a thing again. We say: let's ditch the mailing list and start moving to the fediverse. Toward this end, we've set up an instance < https://tldr.nettime.org > with the following bare-bones "about": tldr.nettime is an instance for artists, researchers, and activists interested in exploring the intersections of technology, culture, and politics. It has grown out of nettime-l, one of the longest-running mailing lists on the net — in particular, on the 'cultural politics of the internet'. tldr.nettime is based on Hometown, a fork of Mastodon. It's compatible with the wider fediverse, but it also offers two tweaks we hope will help make it unusually fruitful: * The character count per message is higher — 2000 chars at the moment. * You can choose whether your post is public or visible only on tldr's local timeline and only to tldr's members. Aside from that, everything is raw by design: it's for those who make the move to define what this instance will be and how we can make it useful. This is a chance to move beyond nettime's shrinking in-group, so feel free to invite others. Our goal is to keep tldr to a size where the local timeline remains a useful tool for an actual, not rhetorical, community; how big that is remains to be seen. In the longer run, we won't maintain two infrastructures, one for email, one for the fediverse. At some point we'll close one — ideally, which one will be a collective decision. So, we hope this is the beginning of change in every sense, hopefully including some of the imbalances that have plagued the mailing list for many years. There's no clear path or process ahead, so this is a free-form, open invitation to get involved. As they say: be the change you want to see on nettime. See you on the other side Doma, Felix & Ted # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Dear Doma, Felix, and Ted I am confused by your recurring argument that the problem with Nettime is fundamentally technical in nature, or indeed that there is a problem with Nettime at all. Speaking personally, Nettime works well for me. I read interesting commentary from people I respect, with the reassurance that I can always add my voice to the symphony. The fact that I do not post more often is mainly testament to the fact that I am busy with other responsibilities. I am sure that this is true of others here as well. This problem will not suddenly disappear with a shift to a different choice of underpinning technology. In fact, it will be exacerbated, because although I run my own e-mail server, the tools for engaging with the so-called 'fediverse' are not part of my workflow. And so, a shift in technology will inexorably induce a 'shake out' in which people are forced to either adopt new workflows or face exclusion. I would have thought that the moral foundation of Internet ethics would be incompatible with the use of force in this way. As far as I know, the argument that 'fediverse' technology, such as that used by Hometown and Mastodon, is superior to e-mail is weak at best and has never been articulated to this group. As far as I know, such technology is in the hands of a handful of software developers and has not been subject to the same rigorous standardisation process of the sort that led to the establishment of e-mail. I suspect that most people on this list did not use e-mail before 1977, by which point RFC 724 was already published [1]. Of course, this standard has evolved over the years, in a direction that has benefited the world and is now used by billions of people. As far as I know, there has not yet been a comparable community-based effort to standardise the implementation of 'fediverse' protocols. Here, we have precisely the sort of platform-based tyranny by fiat that the Internet pioneers laboured to bury forever. Finally, I find the argument that new technology can solve a fundamentally social problem to be absurd and somewhat hypocritical based on the topic of discussion on this list. While I am not convinced that the so-called 'fediverse' is a solution looking for a problem, I am also not convinced that it will make things better for us. Perhaps some of the maintainers of the current infrastructure are bored of the job to which they volunteered, years ago. In that case, they should step aside and leave the task of maintaining this list to others. Surely there are democratic and less-than-democratic ways to achieve this; let's try something. Perhaps a call for volunteers might be a start. But what I can say with certainty is that if you pack up and go somewhere else, not everyone will follow you, and even fewer people will follow if you neglect to provide a solid argument for why. Whether you like it or not, Nettime is more than a toy project of yours; it provides a valuable service that works. Let's stick together. Best wishes -- Geoff [1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc724 On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 11:34:35PM -0100, nettime's mod squad wrote: > Dear nettimers, > > Nettime was founded at a time when, as quaint as it sounds, email was > exciting. > That's long since gone for those who experienced it, let alone for those who > didn't. Discussion-oriented mailing lists like this are, in a word, over, > technically *and* culturally. It's time to think more attentively about > whether > or how nettime can evolve beyond email and its peculiar 'list culture.' > > And it's not just email. The edifices that have displaced and replaced lists > are on the rocks too. Twitter is widely thought to be going over a cliff as > Facebook, already graying, sinks under the weight of its "Metaverse." As more > and more people cast around for alternatives, net.critique has become a bit of > a thing again. > > We say: let's ditch the mailing list and start moving to the fediverse. Toward > this end, we've set up an instance < https://tldr.nettime.org > with the > following bare-bones "about": > > tldr.nettime is an instance for artists, researchers, and activists interested > in exploring the intersections of technology, culture, and politics. > > It has grown out of nettime-l, one of the longest-running mailing lists on the > net ??? in particular, on the 'cultural politics of the internet'. > > tldr.nettime is based on Hometown, a fork of Mastodon. It's compatible with > the > wider fediverse, but it also offers two tweaks we hope will help make it > unusually fruitful: > >* The character count per message is higher ??? 2000 chars at the moment. > >* You can choose whether your post is public or visible only on tldr's > local > timeline and only to tldr's members. > > Aside from that, everything is raw by design: it's for those who make the move > to define what this instance will be and how we can make it useful. > > This is a chance to move beyond
Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Dear nettimers, Nettime was founded at a time when, as quaint as it sounds, email was exciting. That's long since gone for those who experienced it, let alone for those who didn't. Discussion-oriented mailing lists like this are, in a word, over, technically *and* culturally. It's time to think more attentively about whether or how nettime can evolve beyond email and its peculiar 'list culture.' And it's not just email. The edifices that have displaced and replaced lists are on the rocks too. Twitter is widely thought to be going over a cliff as Facebook, already graying, sinks under the weight of its "Metaverse." As more and more people cast around for alternatives, net.critique has become a bit of a thing again. We say: let's ditch the mailing list and start moving to the fediverse. Toward this end, we've set up an instance < https://tldr.nettime.org > with the following bare-bones "about": tldr.nettime is an instance for artists, researchers, and activists interested in exploring the intersections of technology, culture, and politics. It has grown out of nettime-l, one of the longest-running mailing lists on the net â in particular, on the 'cultural politics of the internet'. tldr.nettime is based on Hometown, a fork of Mastodon. It's compatible with the wider fediverse, but it also offers two tweaks we hope will help make it unusually fruitful: * The character count per message is higher â 2000 chars at the moment. * You can choose whether your post is public or visible only on tldr's local timeline and only to tldr's members. Aside from that, everything is raw by design: it's for those who make the move to define what this instance will be and how we can make it useful. This is a chance to move beyond nettime's shrinking in-group, so feel free to invite others. Our goal is to keep tldr to a size where the local timeline remains a useful tool for an actual, not rhetorical, community; how big that is remains to be seen. In the longer run, we won't maintain two infrastructures, one for email, one for the fediverse. At some point we'll close one â ideally, which one will be a collective decision. So, we hope this is the beginning of change in every sense, hopefully including some of the imbalances that have plagued the mailing list for many years. There's no clear path or process ahead, so this is a free-form, open invitation to get involved. As they say: be the change you want to see on nettime. See you on the other side Doma, Felix & Ted # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
