Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state
Indeed, nuclear war is a permanent feature affecting the entire planet: it's called testing (when it's the military; visualised here, commencing somewhat calmly, but then picks up pace): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLCF7vPanrY ) and chemo therapy (when it's pharma). On 14/08/17 11:19, Keith Sanborn wrote: > Rupture or rapture: limited nuclear war is an oxymoron, no matter who > believes it to be meaningful. > >> On Aug 14, 2017, at 7:29 AM, Morlock Elloi wrote: >> >> Urban populations ... no one will waste nukes on peasants. Peasants and the >> ruling class will survive. and >> >> Do a search on "luxury shelters" or "doomsday bunkers" - from $1MM to $40MM >> a pop. It doesn't matter if they will work or not - what matters is that the >> buyers believe they will, and these buyers are the ones making the nuking >> decisions. >> >> Between the Silicon Valley psychopaths working on personal immortality, 5 >> megacorps amassing trillions in cash and not spending it, and the top 0.001% >> becoming preppers, it's obvious that there is a general belief among the >> ruling class that these tumultuous times will end in some kind of rupture, >> and they are getting ready. No one likes the times we live in. I don't have >> any doubts that those of them loosely identifying as "Americans" will opt >> for the nuclear gamble if faced with losing the imperial status. They are >> certainly ready to play the nuclear gamble for far less - like losing the >> elections. >> >>> On 8/13/17, 19:44, Thomas Keenan wrote: >>> "A limited nuclear war" ... limited to whom? >> >> # distributed via : no commercial use without permission >> #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, >> # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets >> # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l >> # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org >> # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: > > # distributed via : no commercial use without permission > #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: > # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state
Rupture or rapture: limited nuclear war is an oxymoron, no matter who believes it to be meaningful. > On Aug 14, 2017, at 7:29 AM, Morlock Elloi wrote: > > Urban populations ... no one will waste nukes on peasants. Peasants and the > ruling class will survive. > > Do a search on "luxury shelters" or "doomsday bunkers" - from $1MM to $40MM a > pop. It doesn't matter if they will work or not - what matters is that the > buyers believe they will, and these buyers are the ones making the nuking > decisions. > > Between the Silicon Valley psychopaths working on personal immortality, 5 > megacorps amassing trillions in cash and not spending it, and the top 0.001% > becoming preppers, it's obvious that there is a general belief among the > ruling class that these tumultuous times will end in some kind of rupture, > and they are getting ready. No one likes the times we live in. I don't have > any doubts that those of them loosely identifying as "Americans" will opt for > the nuclear gamble if faced with losing the imperial status. They are > certainly ready to play the nuclear gamble for far less - like losing the > elections. > >> On 8/13/17, 19:44, Thomas Keenan wrote: >> "A limited nuclear war" ... limited to whom? > > # distributed via : no commercial use without permission > #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state
Urban populations ... no one will waste nukes on peasants. Peasants and the ruling class will survive. Do a search on "luxury shelters" or "doomsday bunkers" - from $1MM to $40MM a pop. It doesn't matter if they will work or not - what matters is that the buyers believe they will, and these buyers are the ones making the nuking decisions. Between the Silicon Valley psychopaths working on personal immortality, 5 megacorps amassing trillions in cash and not spending it, and the top 0.001% becoming preppers, it's obvious that there is a general belief among the ruling class that these tumultuous times will end in some kind of rupture, and they are getting ready. No one likes the times we live in. I don't have any doubts that those of them loosely identifying as "Americans" will opt for the nuclear gamble if faced with losing the imperial status. They are certainly ready to play the nuclear gamble for far less - like losing the elections. On 8/13/17, 19:44, Thomas Keenan wrote: "A limited nuclear war" ... limited to whom? # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state
"A limited nuclear war" ... limited to whom? On Aug 13, 2017 5:21 PM, "Morlock Elloi" wrote: The most likely way is a limited nuclear war where most of nuclear weapons facilities are taken out and global population halved, but that's rather unappealing. # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state
The imperial power transition was never smooth (so far), usually it takes few centuries of dark ages. Even if everything these days is accelerated 10X, we're still looking at several decades of deep s*it. The interesting speculation would be: what is the best way for the American Empire to fall? The most likely way is a limited nuclear war where most of nuclear weapons facilities are taken out and global population halved, but that's rather unappealing. Can it fall so that Twitter, Google and Facebook survive? On 8/13/17, 14:05, John Hopkins wrote: There will be many laws broken in the future by the next Imperial masters ... and peace, in the face of asymptotically increasing resource competition will exist as only a dream for another world ... # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state
On 10/Aug/17 06:32, heath bunting wrote: i support any nation state that attempts to dis-engage from use empire eg hungary, as the empire is the greatest law breaker and threat to global peace But, really, Heath, does the altogether expected and ongoing collapse of the Amurikan Empire signal the demise of the concept or actuality of "Empire"? Smaller and less materially extensive nation-states only decrease the scale that hegemonic and conflictive events occur within (if, indeed it does that, they have a habit of causing wider conflagrations). There is an increasing Void surrounding the collapse, and, guess what, something is filling it: China. And they have the population base to extend politico-cultural hegemonies at a granular human-to-human level globally in a way that is less obsessed with appearances (US) and more with actual changes on the ground that more directly benefit the 'Middle Kingdom'. They have unlimited funding for the military: (see, for example, the choreography of https://t.co/NgMTeTnSup, as a signal of merely 12K of 2 million troops, on a remote base: the US could hardly mount such a display, despite the 'size/strength' of their military)... The ideology pedalled (and 'enforced'!) by the US is/was not nearly as compelling as Confucian State Capitalism! There will be many laws broken in the future by the next Imperial masters ... and peace, in the face of asymptotically increasing resource competition will exist as only a dream for another world ... Where Europe sits in all this whether fragmented or whole will depend on the actual ebbs and flows of power between all players at all scales. JH -- ++ Dr. John Hopkins, BSc, MFA, PhD hanging on to the Laramide Orogeny twitter: @neoscenes http://tech-no-mad.net/blog/ ++ # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state
when falling, the safest place to be is on the ground as soon as possible a non resistant state of mind will limit the amount of broken bones, but there will be some injuries the eu is already broken in reality ie not a union anymore eg greece, so there is no chance to remain brexit was a diversion organised and run by the tories to take the anti-war/ nato/ empire narrative way from corbyn and replace it with a meaningless distraction - it didn't matter which side won the real story is the collapse of the usa empire and its desperate attempts (nuclear war) to hold on to power i support any nation state that attempts to dis-engage from use empire eg hungary, as the empire is the greatest law breaker and threat to global peace On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, David Garcia wrote: > So Patrice… shouldn't the anti-democratic neo-liberal structures of the > EU, that actually forbid radical socialist restructuring and are able > to enforce these strictures by means of what Varoufakis called “fiscal > waterboarding” give us some pause for thought? <...> # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state
David, I think you are entirely right, but I think these are two separate issues: Brexitmadegon in the UK and the total dysfunctioning of EUrope. Brexit indeed offered an opportunity for hard re-thinking in Bruksel, and it has indeed been missed, we're back at business as usual which means pushing the bucket further down the road. So EU's going to the wall too, just a bit later than UK (or earlier, who knows). We're going to the dogs, that's for sure - so maybe time to prepare for this at our own scale, on both sides of the channel. Here's a nice perspective, even though it's sustainability is questionable in Mad Max times ... https://zadforever.blog/ Cheers, p+7D! On 2017-08-10 10:55, David Garcia wrote: So Patrice… shouldn't the anti-democratic neo-liberal structures of the EU, that actually forbid radical socialist restructuring and are able to enforce these strictures by means of what Varoufakis called “fiscal waterboarding” give us some pause for thought? This leftist scepticism on the constraints that belonging to the EU club puts on the possibility for implementing radical socialist (or even social democratic) agendas might help to explain Corbyn’s lack luster campaign to Remain (however he tries to spin it). To Corbyn supporters on the list I would argue that the reason (despite all the protestations) we know it was lack-luster is because it is now clear what a great national campaigner he is when his heart is in it. This puts many Corbyn supporters who are also committed Europeans in a bind. We saw Franco Barardi’s anger expressed in his withdrawl from Diem in response to the pitiful response of the EU to the terrible migration crisis. But retreating behind socialist versions of nationalist silos or premature internationalist dreams, are no answer to either the human emergency of mass migration or the EU’s institutions structural democratic deficit. The UK’s imminent social, generational and economic pain that is already accompanying Brexit.. will give other members of the club fair warning of what is at stake when we teare the house down with only a rickety tent made of abstract nouns (sovereinty and control) to move into. Probably the warning that our local plight will send will be good rest of Europe. But for us living in the UK..not so much. My fear is that the lesson the EU will learn will be to run back to Mutti and Macron’s status quo. Seriously that is the wrong lesson.. On 10 Aug 2017, at 08:50, Patrice Riemens wrote: That's a point of view. But unfortunately Hungary doesn't provide as much comic relief as the Disunited Kingdom, it's totally deflated PM, it's rightwingers going at each other's throats, and the whole country generally slowly descending in the social and economic meltdown that the unavoidable 'Hard Brexit' promises to deliver. Never ming the howls of laughter in the Brussels Commission corridors at the perspective of lengthily torturing that political entity that made them suffer for so long. De Gaulle was right about the UK 'elite', and he must enjoy the spectacle from his heavenly abode ... On 2017-08-09 12:06, heath bunting wrote: nothing compared to uk On Wed, 2 Aug 2017, János Sugár wrote: Is Hungary the EU's first rogue state? http://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/08/hungary-eus-first-rogue-state-viktor-orban-and-long-march-freedom __ SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe Info, archive and help: http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state
So Patrice… shouldn't the anti-democratic neo-liberal structures of the EU, that actually forbid radical socialist restructuring and are able to enforce these strictures by means of what Varoufakis called “fiscal waterboarding” give us some pause for thought? This leftist scepticism on the constraints that belonging to the EU club puts on the possibility for implementing radical socialist (or even social democratic) agendas might help to explain Corbyn’s lack luster campaign to Remain (however he tries to spin it). To Corbyn supporters on the list I would argue that the reason (despite all the protestations) we know it was lack-luster is because it is now clear what a great national campaigner he is when his heart is in it. This puts many Corbyn supporters who are also committed Europeans in a bind. We saw Franco Barardi’s anger expressed in his withdrawl from Diem in response to the pitiful response of the EU to the terrible migration crisis. But retreating behind socialist versions of nationalist silos or premature internationalist dreams, are no answer to either the human emergency of mass migration or the EU’s institutions structural democratic deficit. The UK’s imminent social, generational and economic pain that is already accompanying Brexit.. will give other members of the club fair warning of what is at stake when we teare the house down with only a rickety tent made of abstract nouns (sovereinty and control) to move into. Probably the warning that our local plight will send will be good rest of Europe. But for us living in the UK..not so much. My fear is that the lesson the EU will learn will be to run back to Mutti and Macron’s status quo. Seriously that is the wrong lesson.. On 10 Aug 2017, at 08:50, Patrice Riemens wrote: > That's a point of view. But unfortunately Hungary doesn't provide as much > comic relief as the Disunited Kingdom, it's totally deflated PM, it's > rightwingers going at each other's throats, and the whole country generally > slowly descending in the social and economic meltdown that the unavoidable > 'Hard Brexit' promises to deliver. Never ming the howls of laughter in the > Brussels Commission corridors at the perspective of lengthily torturing that > political entity that made them suffer for so long. De Gaulle was right about > the UK 'elite', and he must enjoy the spectacle from his heavenly abode ... > > > On 2017-08-09 12:06, heath bunting wrote: >> nothing compared to uk >> On Wed, 2 Aug 2017, János Sugár wrote: >>> Is Hungary the EU's first rogue state? >>> http://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/08/hungary-eus-first-rogue-state-viktor-orban-and-long-march-freedom >>> __ >>> SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe >>> Info, archive and help: >>> http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre >> # distributed via : no commercial use without permission >> #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, >> # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets >> # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l >> # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org >> # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: > # distributed via : no commercial use without permission > #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state
That's a point of view. But unfortunately Hungary doesn't provide as much comic relief as the Disunited Kingdom, it's totally deflated PM, it's rightwingers going at each other's throats, and the whole country generally slowly descending in the social and economic meltdown that the unavoidable 'Hard Brexit' promises to deliver. Never ming the howls of laughter in the Brussels Commission corridors at the perspective of lengthily torturing that political entity that made them suffer for so long. De Gaulle was right about the UK 'elite', and he must enjoy the spectacle from his heavenly abode ... On 2017-08-09 12:06, heath bunting wrote: nothing compared to uk On Wed, 2 Aug 2017, János Sugár wrote: Is Hungary the EU's first rogue state? http://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/08/hungary-eus-first-rogue-state-viktor-orban-and-long-march-freedom __ SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe Info, archive and help: http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: [spectre] the EU's first rogue state
nothing compared to uk On Wed, 2 Aug 2017, János Sugár wrote: >Is Hungary the EU's first rogue state? > >http://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/08/hungary-eus-first-rogue-state-viktor-orban-and-long-march-freedom >__ >SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe >Info, archive and help: >http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
the EU's first rogue state
Is Hungary the EU's first rogue state? http://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/08/hungary-eus-first-rogue-state-viktor-orban-and-long-march-freedom # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: