Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

2010-03-05 Thread luigi scarso
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 3:10 AM, Michael Saunders odrad...@gmail.com wrote:
 You mean like the beginner's manual

 http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/ms-cb-en.pdf

 and the user manual

 http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/cont-eni.pdf

 ...

 amongst 46 others by Pragma


 No, not like those.  I mean like a real manual.  I read the book
 about Hasselt---a few examples without explanations.
 I've looked at most of the fifty or so documents over which
 this virtual manual is supposed to be spread.  They are about
 as informative.  Most of these documents seem to be 5--12
 years old.  The wiki is even more patchy.  The idea that a
 computer manual is something that exists implicitly in the
 discussions of a mailing list is a new idea to me.
cont-en  metafun are real manuals for mkii.
And yes, mkii is almost 10years old , and  maybe some options of
some macros are changed
What do you mean as real manual ?


 You can't be serious about mk.pdf being a manual.  Even it
 admits, This document is not so much a users manual as a
 history of the development.  Little after that point is intelligible.
mkiv is still in development.
If one knows mkii,
then  mk.pdf and luatexref-x.pdf are important to help in
understanding mkiv, but it's not enough .
One must also knowns   lua, fontforge  , opentype,
unicode utf-8 TeX internal, xml ...
Actually mkiv is not for end user but it will be for sure in the
future , ~2012 estimated.


 Compared with the clear, abundant documentation of the
 LaTeX world, Context seems like a secret that a small club is
 trying to keep.  It's not even clear from the manuals that
 development is ongoing, much less that there is some advantage
 in using it.
One important point of mkiv are opentype fonts.
It's really hard in LaTeX to manage opentype fonts (remember the Adobe
produce only opentype fonts), and it's also hard in mkii --- but better.
mkiv actually already manage opentype fonts in a decent way, if one
compares with mkii.

Another point is Lua (a traditional programming language)  as a tool
for macro writer,
and I can assure that it' more fun/productive to use Lua than TeX in
some situations (eg parsing)
even if  TeX side of ConTeXt is  still indispensable (and will remain).



Context is not and doesn't seem a secret club:
normal programming is hard, programming with TeX is harder than
normal programming ,
typographic programming is a kind  of magic -- no books other than TexBook.
But in the end one must sit down and write his own code, and the
codebase is the best source for learning.
ConTeXt is a format for typographic programming --- maybe not user
friendly for and end user;
LaTeX is a format for end user --- not so good for general typographic
programming .


-- 
luigi
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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

2010-03-05 Thread R. Bastian
On Thu, 4 Mar 2010 20:10:43 -0600
Michael Saunders odrad...@gmail.com scribit:

  You mean like the beginner's manual
 
  http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/ms-cb-en.pdf
 
  and the user manual
 
  http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/cont-eni.pdf
 
 ...
 
  amongst 46 others by Pragma
 
 
 No, not like those.  I mean like a real manual.  I read the book
 about Hasselt---a few examples without explanations.
 I've looked at most of the fifty or so documents over which
 this virtual manual is supposed to be spread.  They are about
 as informative.  Most of these documents seem to be 5--12
 years old.  The wiki is even more patchy.  The idea that a
 computer manual is something that exists implicitly in the
 discussions of a mailing list is a new idea to me.
 
 You can't be serious about mk.pdf being a manual.  Even it
 admits, This document is not so much a users manual as a
 history of the development.  Little after that point is intelligible.
 
 Compared with the clear, abundant documentation of the
 LaTeX world, ...

LoL

I have a good meter of books about Latex. But Latex is 'congenitally'
unable to do what I want to obtain. 

Within 6 months, with the Seroul book  the Context Manual  the help of
this list, I made more and better than in 10 years of Latex.

With Latex you must accept to do what Latex wants to be done. With
Context (and even with the older Tex), you are free (not free in an
denglish sense ('gratuit', 'kostenfrei'), but 'libre' or 'frei').



 Context seems like a secret that a small club is
 trying to keep.  It's not even clear from the manuals that
 development is ongoing, much less that there is some advantage
 in using it.
 
 So, will there ever be a manual to MK IV?  In how many years?
 

I think that the usersd need that the '[...,...,...]' should be replaced or 
referenced by
lists of parameters and we need a wiki-glossary of the params.

So we need a wiki to which users can access. I tried to access t the
contextgarden, but my access was forbidden. 

So it is true that Context is much more better than the way its access
is managed.



-- 
René Bastian
www.pythoneon.org
www.musiques-rb.org
http://www.soundsurvey.org.uk/


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Re: [NTG-context] What do you miss in ConTeXt?

2010-03-05 Thread Vedran Miletić
2010/2/8 Wolfgang Schuster schuster.wolfg...@googlemail.com:
 Hi all,

 ConTeXt has many features but sometimes there is something missing, what
 feature or package do you miss which is already available in another TeX
 system or unavailable in any TeX system?

 Wolfgang

One very small thing that works fine in MKIV but not in MKII: when I
put PDF title that has characters with caron, in MKII they turn into
ASCII counterparts when compiling. E.g. Računalne mreže becomes
Racunalne mreze. pdfLaTeX has no problems with that (with proper
packages, at least).

Vedran Miletić
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[NTG-context] Concerning the Wiki

2010-03-05 Thread Philipp Gesang
On 2010-03-04 20:10:43, Michael Saunders wrote:
  You mean like the beginner's manual
 
  http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/ms-cb-en.pdf
 ...
  amongst 46 others by Pragma
 
  Most of these documents seem to be 5--12
 years old.  The wiki is even more patchy. -- 

Suggestion: Add mkii, mkiv and both tags to the wiki that somehow
(maybe using colored bars spanning the tagged text to the left …)
identify the version that a paragraph's text pertains to.

Right now it's pain reading through obsolete info about mkii for minutes
only to find a paragraph at the end of the page that says “And in MKIV
things work completely otherwise … please refer to ‘feature-mkiv.pdf’.”
(Yes, I exaggerated that one a bit.)

Finally, when those tags exist, untagged content should default to
none and have a Wikipedia-style begging label on top of the tagless
part, saying “This article needs help.  If you know about the
differences between MKII and MKIV please flag the existing statements.”


Philipp


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Re: [NTG-context] Occasional words sticking out from flush-right

2010-03-05 Thread luigi scarso
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:44 PM, James Fisher jameshfis...@gmail.com wrote:

 I think you're thinking of 'forking' as something dangerous (yeah, the word
 sounds painful), as something that will fragment the community, as something
 that destroys the concept of 'authority'.  It's really not.  Where you get
 forking you get merging at roughly the same rate.
Just an example.
I have made a sort of fork of luatex 0.46 with luatex lunatic ---
see last eurotex meeting.
This is what I have learned
1) it's doable by every one with some skills in programming
2) it's nothing new from typographical point of view
3) we -- as TeX community -- don't need it.

So it's really true that one can modify/fork luatex for his needs ---
and I will do it again, I have other binding on my list.
It's also true that in this way luatex+mkiv can become your  powerful
and private tool for your particular workflow,
or that in this manner some modifications can enter in main luatex, if
Taco thinks that they are ok
For example actually I see more and more problems in dynamic loading,
so I think that my modifications are not ok for luatex --- but Taco
has the last word , and it's not a problem for me.

But, still, we -- as TeX community -- don't need it .

Actually we must support Taco and Hans in their job of development
luatex and mkiv
with testing and meaningful request;
development team is up and running from about 5years
and they made a really good job until now and  I see no reason for changes .
(I'm not on dev. team btw. , so it's my opinion)

This is why I don't see documentation  as a high priority --- of
course I'm always waiting the next pdf from Hans.






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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

2010-03-05 Thread richard . stephens

 No, not like those. I mean like a real
manual. I read the book
 about Hasselt---a few examples without explanations.

I am absolutely gobsmacked (astounded, astonished)
at some of the comments on this and other threads!
ConTeXt - an Excursion and ConTeXt
the Manual together are wonderful. I still consult them at least
once a week
after 4 year's use. If you actually tried the examples
in the former, rather than just reading them, you
would be an expert user within 2 days!

It would be nice to think that the community could
construct documentation, but good, coherent documentation
is much harder to produce than good code! It works
for collections of small articles (WikiPedia etc), but
I've never seen a good book written by a community.

While it would be nice to have an updated ConTeXt
the Manual, in my humble opinion the biggest hole
in the documentation is a reference for each command.
Texshow-web should fill this gap and this is
where the community CAN contribute, and where the
mechanism already exists. And because it's made up of
small articles it could work. When I learn about a
command I try to fill in a few words in
texshow-web. If everyone added a few words each time
they learn a new command, we would soon have 
a fantastic reference source.

Richard

P.S. One request for improvement to texshow-web: the
source-file for each command is included
in cont-en.xml, could this be displayed on the command
web-page? It would make it easier to
find the source if you need to.





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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

2010-03-05 Thread richard . stephens

There's another feature that would be REALLY useful
in texshow-web: the ability to show the output from code, in the same way
that the Wiki shows the output from code between context and /context.

Is this a possibility?

Richard

P.S. There is an error in cont-en.xml for the command
lohi: the keyword is shown as low when it should
be left.






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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

2010-03-05 Thread Patrick Gundlach
 While it would be nice to have an updated ConTeXt the Manual, in my humble 
 opinion the biggest hole 
 in the documentation is a reference for each command. Texshow-web should fill 
 this gap and this is 
 where the community CAN contribute, and where the mechanism already exists. 
 And because it's made up of 
 small articles it could work. When I learn about a command I try to fill in a 
 few words in 
 texshow-web. If everyone added a few words each time they learn a new 
 command, we would soon have 
 a fantastic reference source. 
 
 Richard 
 
 P.S. One request for improvement to texshow-web: the source-file for each 
 command is included 
 in cont-en.xml, could this be displayed on the command web-page? It would 
 make it easier to 
 find the source if you need to.

I have promised to Taco that I will transfer the contents of texshow-web to the 
wiki this month. Then we can do everything the wiki can do now.

Patrick

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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

2010-03-05 Thread Thomas A. Schmitz


On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:01 AM, richard.steph...@converteam.com wrote:



 No, not like those.  I mean like a real manual.  I read the book
 about Hasselt---a few examples without explanations.

I am absolutely gobsmacked (astounded, astonished) at some of the  
comments on this and other threads!
ConTeXt - an Excursion and ConTeXt the Manual together are  
wonderful. I still consult them at least once a week
after 4 year's use. If you actually tried the examples in the  
former, rather than just reading them, you

would be an expert user within 2 days!


Hear hear! I couldn't agree more and am happy that a voice of reason  
appears in this somewhat meandering thread!




It would be nice to think that the community could construct  
documentation, but good, coherent documentation
is much harder to produce than good code! It works for collections  
of small articles (WikiPedia etc), but

I've never seen a good book written by a community.


also +1 Wasn't there this wonderful saying that a camel is a horse  
designed by committee?


Thomas
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Re: [NTG-context] [OT] Lua sponsors

2010-03-05 Thread Andreas Schneider
Vyatcheslav Yatskovsky wrote:

 Wow. I first decided that Adobe became the sponsor of LuaTeX. )
 
 Vyatcheslav
 

Beware that Lua  LuaTeX ;-)

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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

2010-03-05 Thread Marcin Borkowski
Dnia Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 08:10:43PM -0600, Michael Saunders napisa#322;(a):
  You mean like the beginner's manual
 
  http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/ms-cb-en.pdf
 
  and the user manual
 
  http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/cont-eni.pdf
 
 ...
 
  amongst 46 others by Pragma
 
 
 No, not like those.  I mean like a real manual.  I read the book
 about Hasselt---a few examples without explanations.
 I've looked at most of the fifty or so documents over which
 this virtual manual is supposed to be spread.  They are about
 as informative.  Most of these documents seem to be 5--12
 years old.  The wiki is even more patchy.  The idea that a
 computer manual is something that exists implicitly in the
 discussions of a mailing list is a new idea to me.
 
 You can't be serious about mk.pdf being a manual.  Even it
 admits, This document is not so much a users manual as a
 history of the development.  Little after that point is intelligible.
 
 Compared with the clear, abundant documentation of the
 LaTeX world, Context seems like a secret that a small club is
 trying to keep.  It's not even clear from the manuals that
 development is ongoing, much less that there is some advantage
 in using it.
 
 So, will there ever be a manual to MK IV?  In how many years?

Hi,

this is a strong (but fair, I believe) criticism.  I guess that we all
know that the main problem with ConTeXt is documentation; my feelings
are similar, and although I started using ConTeXt using the user
manual and asking on the list - and that helped a lot - having a good
user manual would be great.

I have to disagree, though, with the clear, abundant documentation of
the LaTeX world.  This is far from true: the docs for LaTeX are spread
over numerous package documentations, not-so-well written books and
terribly written beginners' books (the LaTeX book on wikibooks is
awful, for example).  So the situation is pretty much similar to
ConTeXt.  The difference is that the LaTeX core is rather primitive
(compared to ConTeXt), and even a bad manual can do - and the mainstream
packages are usually well documented.  In case of ConTeXt, most
functionality one needs is in the core, which is documented as badly as
LaTeX's.

Regards

-- 
Marcin Borkowski (http://mbork.pl)

This program is written in Perl.  While stronger people find reading
Perl code character-building, it should not be shown to people in their
formative years.  The author will not accept any responsibility for any
moral grief caused.

(The McKornik Jr. Public License)
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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

2010-03-05 Thread Jörg Hagmann
I agree, too.  I have praised the Excursion before -- an excellent 
one-author work -- and if you also consult the Manual you can do a 
lot.  For special questions, there is always Wolfgang ...


On 3/5/10 1:50 PM, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:


On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:01 AM, richard.steph...@converteam.com wrote:



 No, not like those.  I mean like a real manual.  I read the book
 about Hasselt---a few examples without explanations.

I am absolutely gobsmacked (astounded, astonished) at some of the 
comments on this and other threads!
ConTeXt - an Excursion and ConTeXt the Manual together are 
wonderful. I still consult them at least once a week
after 4 year's use. If you actually tried the examples in the former, 
rather than just reading them, you

would be an expert user within 2 days!


Hear hear! I couldn't agree more and am happy that a voice of reason 
appears in this somewhat meandering thread!




It would be nice to think that the community could construct 
documentation, but good, coherent documentation
is much harder to produce than good code! It works for collections of 
small articles (WikiPedia etc), but

I've never seen a good book written by a community.


also +1 Wasn't there this wonderful saying that a camel is a horse 
designed by committee?


Thomas
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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

2010-03-05 Thread Willi Egger


On 5 Mar 2010, at 13:50, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:



On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:01 AM, richard.steph...@converteam.com wrote:



 No, not like those.  I mean like a real manual.  I read the book
 about Hasselt---a few examples without explanations.

I am absolutely gobsmacked (astounded, astonished) at some of the  
comments on this and other threads!
ConTeXt - an Excursion and ConTeXt the Manual together are  
wonderful. I still consult them at least once a week
after 4 year's use. If you actually tried the examples in the  
former, rather than just reading them, you

would be an expert user within 2 days!


Hear hear! I couldn't agree more and am happy that a voice of  
reason appears in this somewhat meandering thread!

Indeed! I would sign this myself!




It would be nice to think that the community could construct  
documentation, but good, coherent documentation
is much harder to produce than good code! It works for collections  
of small articles (WikiPedia etc), but

I've never seen a good book written by a community.


also +1 Wasn't there this wonderful saying that a camel is a horse  
designed by committee?

+1

Willi


Thomas
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[NTG-context] Math font sizes

2010-03-05 Thread Mehdi Omidali

Hi,
I use tikz with MKIV and need to switch to \scriptsize in math font. 
\scriptsize doesn't work. What is its equivalent in MKIV?

Thanks
MO
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Re: [NTG-context] Math font sizes

2010-03-05 Thread Wolfgang Schuster

Am 05.03.10 19:40, schrieb Mehdi Omidali:

Hi,
I use tikz with MKIV and need to switch to \scriptsize in math font. 
\scriptsize doesn't work. What is its equivalent in MKIV?

\starttext

$a$ $\tx a$ $\txx a$

$a$ $\scriptstyle a$ $\scriptscriptstyle a$

\stoptext

Wolfgang

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Re: [NTG-context] Math font sizes

2010-03-05 Thread Aditya Mahajan

On Fri, 5 Mar 2010, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:


Am 05.03.10 19:40, schrieb Mehdi Omidali:

Hi,
I use tikz with MKIV and need to switch to \scriptsize in math font. 
\scriptsize doesn't work. What is its equivalent in MKIV?

\starttext

$a$ $\tx a$ $\txx a$

$a$ $\scriptstyle a$ $\scriptscriptstyle a$

\stoptext


Also see the documentation in font-ini

%D This leaves us two more commands: \type{\tx} and
%D \type{\txx}. These activate a smaller and even more smaller
%D font than the current one and adapt themselves to the
%D current alternative, so when \type{\bf} is active,
%D \type{\tx} gives a smaller boldface, which in turn can be
%D called directly by \type{\bfx}.
%D
%D These two smaller alternatives are specified by the bodyfont
%D environment and therefore not necessarily have similar sizes
%D as \type{\scriptsize} and \type{\scriptscriptsize}. The main
%D reason for this incompatibility (which can easily be undone)
%D lays in the fact that we often want a bit bigger characters
%D than in math mode. In \CONTEXT\ for instance the \type{\tx}
%D and \type{\txx} commands are used for surrogate
%D \cap{smallcaps} which support both nesting and alternatives,
%D like in {\bf\cap{a \cap{small} world}}, which was typeset by
%D
%D \starttyping
%D \bf\cap{a \cap{small} world}
%D \stoptyping
%D
%D And compare $\rm \scriptstyle THIS$ with the slightly larger
%D \cap{THIS}: \ruledhbox{$\rm \scriptstyle scriptstyle: THIS$}
%D or \ruledhbox{\cap{x style: THIS}} makes a big difference.

Aditya
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Re: [NTG-context] Math font sizes

2010-03-05 Thread Wolfgang Schuster

Am 05.03.10 20:05, schrieb Aditya Mahajan:

Also see the documentation in font-ini

%D These two smaller alternatives are specified by the bodyfont
%D environment and therefore not necessarily have similar sizes
%D as \type{\scriptsize} and \type{\scriptscriptsize}.

But ConTeXt has no \scriptsize and \scriptscriptsize commands as
you can think from the sentence above.

Wolfgang

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Re: [NTG-context] Math font sizes

2010-03-05 Thread Mehdi Omidali

Thanks,
Apparently tikz is not able to handle these font styles as you can see 
in the following file. But it is not a big problem as one can use \tx 
for example whenever I need it.

MO

\usemodule[tikz]

\usetikzlibrary{arrows,matrix}

\starttext

\starttikzpicture[description/.style={fill=white,inner sep=2pt}]

\matrix (m) [matrix of math nodes, row sep=3em,

column sep=2.5em, text height=1.5ex, text depth=0.25ex]

{

AA\\

AA\\

};

\path[-,font=\txx]

(m-1-1) edge node[auto] {$A$} (m-1-2);

\path[-]

(m-2-1) edge node[auto] {$\tx A$} (m-2-2);

\stoptikzpicture

\stoptext


On 3/5/2010 10:30 PM, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

Am 05.03.10 19:40, schrieb Mehdi Omidali:

Hi,
I use tikz with MKIV and need to switch to \scriptsize in math font. 
\scriptsize doesn't work. What is its equivalent in MKIV?

\starttext

$a$ $\tx a$ $\txx a$

$a$ $\scriptstyle a$ $\scriptscriptstyle a$

\stoptext

Wolfgang


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[NTG-context] Table of contents disappears when \setuparranging is used

2010-03-05 Thread berend
Hi People,

I have a very weird problem. As soon as I star tot use \setuparranging
the table of contents and other registers disappear. How to fix that?

An example file:

--
\setuppapersize
  [A5][A4]

\setuparranging
  [2SIDE,rotated]

\starttext

\subject{Table of contents}

\placecontent[1]

\chapter{Hello}

World.

\stoptext
--


There will be no text under table of contents. Comment out
\setuparranging and then the table of contents appears.


When \setuparranging is enabled, this appears in the log file:

system  : part,chapter,section,subsection,subsubsection,subsubsubsectio
n,subsubsubsubsection not found/processed

-- 
All the best,

Berend de Boer
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Re: [NTG-context] Table of contents disappears when \setuparranging is used

2010-03-05 Thread Thomas A. Schmitz

On Mar 5, 2010, at 10:33 PM, ber...@pobox.com wrote:

 Hi People,
 
 I have a very weird problem. As soon as I star tot use \setuparranging
 the table of contents and other registers disappear. How to fix that?

Hi Berend,

run context or texexec with the switch --arrange.

HTH

Thomas
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Re: [NTG-context] Table of contents disappears when \setuparranging is used

2010-03-05 Thread Mari Voipio
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 11:50 PM, Thomas A. Schmitz
thomas.schm...@uni-bonn.de wrote:
 run context or texexec with the switch --arrange.

If you have a SciTe-ConTeXt system, do Process and arrange in the
Tools many instead of just Process, to get your indices and other
tables back.


...been there, done that
(http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Imposition#Caveat:_common_troubles)


Mari
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[NTG-context] Embedding fonts

2010-03-05 Thread Tom
Printers that I deal with want the PDFs to have the fonts embedded. The PDFs
that Texlive produces don't appear to have their fonts embedded and I can't
find what option I must set or routine that must be run to embed the fonts.

Tom Benjey
717-258-9733 voice
717-243-0074 fax
Twitter: @TomBenjey






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Re: [NTG-context] Embedding fonts

2010-03-05 Thread Mojca Miklavec
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 05:33, Tom wrote:
 Printers that I deal with want the PDFs to have the fonts embedded. The PDFs
 that Texlive produces don't appear to have their fonts embedded and I can't
 find what option I must set or routine that must be run to embed the fonts.

They are embded by default. How does your document look like?

Mojca
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