[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Don’t forget the articles from the context journal: 
https://articles.contextgarden.net/

(2022 is still missing)

Esp. Taco’s about MetaPost are very interesting and maybe that’s some 
low level stuff you’re missing.


You don’t need to look at Hans’ contributions – everything that’s still 
valid is in the distribution.


Hraban
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[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/15/2024 8:25 PM, Tommaso Gordini wrote:
Thanks everyone for the suggestions on the manuals. I knew the resource 
reported by Alain and, of course, that of Joaquín, whose translation 
into Italian I have completed, but not yet refined.


However, I didn't know the file reported by Mikael, which I found to be 
an excellent tutorial to get started with.


The documentation on ConTeXt is copious, and we know it: just look at 
the manuals on Contextgarden. But it is decidedly fragmented, and this 
disorientates the user.


I believe, therefore, that what the community misses is a 
tutorial/reference manual/complete guide that comes /directly/ from the 
ConTeXt team (Hans, Wolfgang, etc). And, above all, that it is up to 
date: on Contextgarden many ‘valid’ manuals date back to many years ago, 
and the obsolescence of the software guides could make people say 
something like «well, stuff from years ago, I don't trust it».


A manual in a single file that has, in short, the seal of officiality: 
the various resources in circulation are just as many excellent efforts 
by individuals, who however have put their own approach to ConTeXt into 
their work. Perhaps there is a more correct approach than others, more 
essential, which is worth knowing.


I am speaking to you as a LaTeX user, and therefore I may have written a 
lot of nonsense in my message.
I conclude by saying that, in the end, the ConTeXt team may not be 
interested in all this, and therefore our discussions are pure academic. :)
As with latex it's not dev who have to write documentation, manuals, 
books ... so any addition is okay. There are only 24 hours in my day 
(maybe a few more in wolfgangs),


Hans


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[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[Tommaso Gordini]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions on the manuals. I knew the resource
reported by Alain and, of course, that of Joaquín, whose translation into
Italian I have completed, but not yet refined.

However, I didn't know the file reported by Mikael, which I found to be an
excellent tutorial to get started with.

The documentation on ConTeXt is copious, and we know it: just look at the
manuals on Contextgarden. But it is decidedly fragmented, and this
disorientates the user.

I believe, therefore, that what the community misses is a
tutorial/reference manual/complete guide that comes *directly* from the
ConTeXt team (Hans, Wolfgang, etc). And, above all, that it is up to date:
on Contextgarden many ‘valid’ manuals date back to many years ago, and the
obsolescence of the software guides could make people say something like
«well, stuff from years ago, I don't trust it».

A manual in a single file that has, in short, the seal of officiality: the
various resources in circulation are just as many excellent efforts by
individuals, who however have put their own approach to ConTeXt into their
work. Perhaps there is a more correct approach than others, more essential,
which is worth knowing.

I am speaking to you as a LaTeX user, and therefore I may have written a
lot of nonsense in my message.
I conclude by saying that, in the end, the ConTeXt team may not be
interested in all this, and therefore our discussions are pure academic. :)

Ciao
Tommaso

Il giorno gio 15 feb 2024 alle ore 12:13 Aditya Mahajan 
ha scritto:

> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024, Mikael Sundqvist wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > This small example from BachoTeX 2023 could perhaps be useful for
> > someone: https://github.com/mpsmath/stepbystep
>
> For tutorials, I had played around with using a git repo as a tutorial:
>
> https://github.com/adityam/context-slides-example/commits
>
> The following page is generated automatically from the git commit log:
> https://adityam.github.io/context-blog/post/presentation-40-commits-redux/
>
> Aditya
>
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[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Thu, 15 Feb 2024, Mikael Sundqvist wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> This small example from BachoTeX 2023 could perhaps be useful for
> someone: https://github.com/mpsmath/stepbystep

For tutorials, I had played around with using a git repo as a tutorial:

https://github.com/adityam/context-slides-example/commits

The following page is generated automatically from the git commit log:
https://adityam.github.io/context-blog/post/presentation-40-commits-redux/

Aditya
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[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[Tommaso Gordini]

Thank you, Mikael,

excellent tutorial, for me.

Ciao
Tommaso

Il giorno gio 15 feb 2024 alle ore 09:29 Mikael Sundqvist 
ha scritto:

> Hi,
>
> This small example from BachoTeX 2023 could perhaps be useful for
> someone: https://github.com/mpsmath/stepbystep
>
> /Mikael
>
> On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 8:31 AM Jan Ulrich Hasecke via ntg-context
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Am 14.02.24 um 19:45 schrieb Sir Coleman via ntg-context:
> >
> > I wanted to create more of a reference, a complete reference, and one
> that's of course not meant to be read from cover to cover.
> >
> >
> > I think that setup-en.pdf is a good starting point for a complete
> reference as it contains the commands and their options. With added
> explanations and examples it would be a great reference to beginners.
> >
> > juh
> >
> >
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> (mirror)
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> >
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[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[Mikael Sundqvist]

Hi,

This small example from BachoTeX 2023 could perhaps be useful for
someone: https://github.com/mpsmath/stepbystep

/Mikael

On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 8:31 AM Jan Ulrich Hasecke via ntg-context
 wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Am 14.02.24 um 19:45 schrieb Sir Coleman via ntg-context:
>
> I wanted to create more of a reference, a complete reference, and one that's 
> of course not meant to be read from cover to cover.
>
>
> I think that setup-en.pdf is a good starting point for a complete reference 
> as it contains the commands and their options. With added explanations and 
> examples it would be a great reference to beginners.
>
> juh
>
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[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[Jan Ulrich Hasecke via ntg-context]

Hi,

Am 14.02.24 um 19:45 schrieb Sir Coleman via ntg-context:

I wanted to create more of a reference, a complete reference, and one that's of 
course not meant to be read from cover to cover.



I think that setup-en.pdf is a good starting point for a complete 
reference as it contains the commands and their options. With added 
explanations and examples it would be a great reference to beginners.


juh
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[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/14/2024 8:37 PM, Joaquín Ataz López wrote:
I join the thanks to the other members of the list. I think that good 
documentation is essential in any project, and, in particular, a 
low-level explanation of ConTeXt that is understandable without being an 
accomplished TeX programmer seems to me a great idea.


As for TeX documentation, I don't know what the members of the list who 
know more than I do will think, but I think The TeXBook is a great book, 
very didactic. I also like (although at a different level) TeX By Topic,

indeed these are must-haves

Hans

-
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  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[Joaquín Ataz López]

I join the thanks to the other members of the list. I think that good 
documentation is essential in any project, and, in particular, a 
low-level explanation of ConTeXt that is understandable without being an 
accomplished TeX programmer seems to me a great idea.


As for TeX documentation, I don't know what the members of the list who 
know more than I do will think, but I think The TeXBook is a great book, 
very didactic. I also like (although at a different level) TeX By Topic,



El 12/2/24 a las 8:49, SirColeman via ntg-context escribió:
Greetings all. I have a passion for typesetting. I found that 
currently the best typesetting systems are those that are based on 
TeX. Of them, there are LaTeX, and ConTeXt.
LaTeX is very well documented and popular; ConTeXt, on the other hand, 
is apparently very powerful and capable, but is not as well documented.


There are things that are spectacularly well documented, others that 
only show hints, and leave it up to the user to figure things out on 
their own, and others still that won't even compile on a more recent 
version of ConTeXt (apparently the proper way to access a counter's 
value in ConTeXt is to use \getnumber or \convertednumber, and not 
\getcounter. That's just an example).


I thus thought, as an exercise in typesetting, in writing, and also to 
help the ConTeXt documentation, to write a new book, a large book, 
that teaches the details of how ConTeXt on a lower level works, 
allowing one to understand how to utilize low level typesetting 
features for anything more sophisticated than a simple book or 
article. By lower level, I mean how things like heads, items, 
references, alignment, tables, etc., work. Also, I would like a book 
that teaches things like how to program it using lua, how to 
understand and utilize the underlying engine itself (the low level 
LuaMetaTeX), how to even use DocBook with ConTeXt, etc.


(I do realize that there already are manuals for lua in ConTeXt and on 
LuaMetaTeX, etc., and manuals on various different parts of ConTeXt, 
and I'll certainly be learning from them whenever their particular 
topic comes, but I reserve the opportunity to rewrite parts of these 
manuals for this book, as is necessary for the book's purpose, perhaps 
referencing these manuals for further details.)


In particular, I want to go a step beyond the book "A not so short 
introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV", and teach the particularly advanced 
features, where there is sparse information. Particularly, it's meant 
to serve as one complete reference, instead of having to hunt for 
different manuals, which explain things differently, and with the 
consequence that it's hard to find a particular piece of information 
because its scattered around so many different places.


This book should serve as the one and only final documentation that 
you would need. It would contain everything in a highly cohesive 
format, in one place, and make particular pieces of information 
particularly easy to find. I realize that this is a very ambitious 
undertaking, but I find that a unified source of information is better 
than information with varying levels of quality scattered across more 
places than one can hold in his head.


I just have one question: What is all the necessary material to 
understand and utilize the low level TeX programming language itself? 
That is, what do I need to read to learn to be able to read the 
ConTeXt source code itself (which is written in TeX---and lua, but I 
can help myself in that regard)? Is the "Low Level TeX" set of manuals 
all that I'll need, or will I need other sources of information too? 
And also, is it worth learning Plain TeX, and reading The TeXbook, or 
is not necessary?


And, I'm grateful to have an alternative to LaTeX. It's certainly 
promising, but I would like to help make it appealing, by making it 
easy to learn and master it, and provide a single source of 
information. I'm grateful for having ConTeXt.


P.S. If I have bugs to file, should I file them on this mailing list, 
or on the dev-cont...@ntg.nl mailing list?


And, to all beginner ConTeXt users: What would you like to see covered 
in this book?


Thanks.

--
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[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[Sir Coleman via ntg-context]

First of all, I'm grateful for your offer, and hope that you find it valuable 
indeed.

However, I must say that this isn't what I had in mind. I wanted to create more 
of a reference, a complete reference, and one that's of course not meant to be 
read from cover to cover. What you're suggesting sounds more like a tutorial to 
me.

Don't get me wrong: we need both a reference and a tutorial. If necessary, I'll 
create a quick tutorial that demonstrates how to quickly use ConTeXt, and gives 
hints on where to look further in my book, or whatever else you and others see 
needs to be written.

This is a bit interesting, though. Should I start with a tutorial, or the 
reference? I personally lean more towards the reference, but of course if the 
community thinks that the tutorial first would be more valuable, then that'll 
get the higher priority.

What I had in mind was a single reference that taught you all you needed to 
become as experienced with ConTeXt as Hans Hagen et al, and all the information 
you'll need to essentially be able to achieve whatever you want. I found (and 
hope the ConTeXt developers take no offense) that the documentation for how to 
become an advanced user was nonexistent, and for some specific cases more 
scattered around. Thus, the book was born.

In other words, it's a book that teaches you how to become an advanced ConTeXt 
user, certainly far beyond "A not so short introduction to ConTeXt". Would the 
ConTeXt community more prefer such a book, or a more quick introductory book 
for ConTeXt? Because I don't think these two would serve well as one, but 
rather the former backing up the latter, i.e., two different books.

Thanks.
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[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[Jim]

Hi,

a book like this would be very valuable.  I hope your project is
successful.  And, as soon as you have something on gitlab, I will be happy
to read it and give feedback.

In terms of organization... one of the things I don't like about "A Not So
Short Guide..." is that it starts with information about how you structure
large projects.  I think this is a serious mistake, it is like explaining
to someone how to pass a car in an F1 race when they don't know where the
gas pedal in their car is.  I got bogged down on that and wasted time
reading (and forgetting) it, because I don't yet have any projects that
big.

Anyway, good luck with the project.

Jim

On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 22:22 (-), Sir Coleman via ntg-context wrote:

> I'm glad to know there's a demand for this book.

> Hopefully soon I'll upload a draft of it to GitLab, so if there's anything 
> that you learned that you would like to contribute to this book, you would be 
> able to do so. I personally would be very happy if someone would give me 
> examples of things a user would like to do, because my own use cases can only 
> go that far.

> I'll make sure to make finding information in this book as direct as 
> possible. If you find that some information in this book isn't clear or easy 
> to learn from (or locate in the first place), then I'll expect a complaint 
> about it.

> I'll post here a link to the GitLab repository when part of the book has been 
> written and ready for feedback. Should take some time, but not too long.
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[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[Shiv Shankar Dayal]

Please write one. More documentation is needed.

On Wed, Feb 14, 2024 at 3:55 AM Sir Coleman via ntg-context <
ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

> I'm glad to know there's a demand for this book.
>
> Hopefully soon I'll upload a draft of it to GitLab, so if there's anything
> that you learned that you would like to contribute to this book, you would
> be able to do so. I personally would be very happy if someone would give me
> examples of things a user would like to do, because my own use cases can
> only go that far.
>
> I'll make sure to make finding information in this book as direct as
> possible. If you find that some information in this book isn't clear or
> easy to learn from (or locate in the first place), then I'll expect a
> complaint about it.
>
> I'll post here a link to the GitLab repository when part of the book has
> been written and ready for feedback. Should take some time, but not too
> long.
>
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-- 
Respect,
Shiv Shankar Dayal
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[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[Sir Coleman via ntg-context]

I'm glad to know there's a demand for this book.

Hopefully soon I'll upload a draft of it to GitLab, so if there's anything that 
you learned that you would like to contribute to this book, you would be able 
to do so. I personally would be very happy if someone would give me examples of 
things a user would like to do, because my own use cases can only go that far.

I'll make sure to make finding information in this book as direct as possible. 
If you find that some information in this book isn't clear or easy to learn 
from (or locate in the first place), then I'll expect a complaint about it.

I'll post here a link to the GitLab repository when part of the book has been 
written and ready for feedback. Should take some time, but not too long.
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[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[Peter Hopcroft via ntg-context]

Thank you Sir Coleman. I’m a Context beginner and I’d love a good book 
introducing me to Context. I’ve wasted many hours trying to figure out how to 
do things that turned out to be simple.

The answer is often/sometimes buried in the documentation, and what would 
really help me is a book that is more of an index to the existing documentation 
that is not out of date, with perhaps some simple examples. One case that comes 
to mind is to pass a couple of numbers to Lua, have it do a calculation and use 
the result in Context.

Regards,
Peter

> On 14/02/2024, at 9:03 AM, Sir Coleman via ntg-context  
> wrote:
> 
> Acknowledged.
> 
> However, this does reinforce my point, that the documentation needs to be 
> updated. The examples on the wiki still use \getcounter, and naturally they 
> all fail to compile. Hence, my ambition to create a book to serve as the 
> documentation, which I find is a better medium for communication rather than 
> wikis.
> 
> Now, as to my question, to understand the low level TeX programming language, 
> will the manuals "Low Level TeX" be enough?
> 
> Thanks.
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[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[Sir Coleman via ntg-context]

Acknowledged.

However, this does reinforce my point, that the documentation needs to be 
updated. The examples on the wiki still use \getcounter, and naturally they all 
fail to compile. Hence, my ambition to create a book to serve as the 
documentation, which I find is a better medium for communication rather than 
wikis.

Now, as to my question, to understand the low level TeX programming language, 
will the manuals "Low Level TeX" be enough?

Thanks.
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[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[Wolfgang Schuster]

SirColeman via ntg-context schrieb am 13.02.2024 um 20:44:
>> This is wrong, the counter commands are official and the number 
variants are kept for backwards compatibility with old styles.


I do recall reading on the ConTeXt wiki that \definenumber is 
maintained for backwards compatibility reasons. However, why then does 
ConTeXt fail to compile with \getcounter, if that's how it's supposed 
to work? I was confused, don't get me wrong, but what I wrote was my 
own conclusion on the matter.


Clearly, we have a bug that needs to be reported. I wish my email 
hadn't included such misinformation. But now, this is a bug that needs 
to be resolved.


I'm running ConTeXt version 2024.01.24, and the given attachment fails 
to compile, even with MkIV.


I don't want to pester those subscribed to this mailing list with bug 
reports, so I thought it would be more sensible to post such reports 
on the context developers mailing list. I ask for confirmation that I 
can post there instead of here.


There is no command named \getcounter, only \convertedcounter exists. 
The two older commands \getnumber and \convertednumber are aliases for 
the new \convertedcounter command.


You can report bugs on this list (no need to use the more or less dead 
dev list) but in this case there is no bug, just different names.


Wolfgang

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[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[SirColeman via ntg-context]

>> This is wrong, the counter commands are official and the number variants are 
>> kept for backwards compatibility with old styles.

I do recall reading on the ConTeXt wiki that \definenumber is maintained for 
backwards compatibility reasons. However, why then does ConTeXt fail to compile 
with \getcounter, if that's how it's supposed to work? I was confused, don't 
get me wrong, but what I wrote was my own conclusion on the matter.

Clearly, we have a bug that needs to be reported. I wish my email hadn't 
included such misinformation. But now, this is a bug that needs to be resolved.

I'm running ConTeXt  version 2024.01.24, and the given attachment fails to 
compile, even with MkIV.

I don't want to pester those subscribed to this mailing list with bug reports, 
so I thought it would be more sensible to post such reports on the context 
developers mailing list. I ask for confirmation that I can post there instead 
of here.

Thanks.


example.lmtx
Description: Binary data
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[NTG-context] Re: An announcement of my new book.

[Wolfgang Schuster]

SirColeman via ntg-context schrieb am 12.02.2024 um 08:49:
Greetings all. I have a passion for typesetting. I found that 
currently the best typesetting systems are those that are based on 
TeX. Of them, there are LaTeX, and ConTeXt.
LaTeX is very well documented and popular; ConTeXt, on the other hand, 
is apparently very powerful and capable, but is not as well documented.


There are things that are spectacularly well documented, others that 
only show hints, and leave it up to the user to figure things out on 
their own, and others still that won't even compile on a more recent 
version of ConTeXt (apparently the proper way to access a counter's 
value in ConTeXt is to use \getnumber or \convertednumber, and not 
\getcounter. That's just an example).


This is wrong, the counter commands are official and the number variants 
are kept for backwards compatibility with old styles.


Wolfgang

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