Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[vic]

Why not this is as good as spam!
- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Stearne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "vic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Dana Spiegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 


Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband


On 1/13/06, vic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I am tired of this conservative bashing. I am leaving this list!!
g b all



Don't cut and run.



- Original Message -
From: "Dana Spiegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: 
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband


> Jim,
>
> This is my last response to you, because you seem to be doing what
> many right-wing politicians are quite good at: changing the subject.
>
> This shouldn't be a discussion about whether the municipal networks
> are going to work or not. I dare-say that common sense tells us that
> some number will be successful, and some number will not. How you
> evaluate their outcomes relies almost entirely on your point of view.
>
> The real, fundamental problem is that America has slow, expensive,
> and only partially available broadband when compared to just about
> every other industrialized nation. This is especially embarrassing
> considering that we invented the damn technology, and nurtured it for
> its first two decades.
>
> This is a _fact_. No amount of hewing and hawing, or dancing around
> the subject will change this.
>
> Another fact: our sorry state of broadband has occurred over the past
> 5 years. A period of time when Conservative Republicans have been
> running this country and calling (almost) all of the shots.
>
> So, there arise really two questions (which you seem to be entirely
> unable to answer and which is why, I suspect, you'd rather change the
> subject):
>
> 1) Why is the state of broadband in America so awful?
> and
> 2) What are you going to do about it?
>
> This is less a question for you directly, but rather a question for
> those in charge of this Country.
>
> And the answer _isn't_ more competition in the future and a more open
> marketplace with fewer regulations. THAT is an end result of good
> policy-making. I want to know what we're doing that's failing, and
> what we should be doing instead. If we put in place good policy, more
> competition in a healthy marketplace will happen by itself.
>
> And I'm not pro-muniwireless or anti-muniwireless, or left-wing or
> right-wing, or even Republican or Democrat. I'm an independent.
>
> Dana Spiegel
> Executive Director
> NYCwireless
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.NYCwireless.net
> +1 917 402 0422
>
> Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info
>
>
> On Jan 12, 2006, at 8:24 PM, Jim Henry wrote:
>
>> Dana,
>>I've read the article you reference, and, like the one I
>> provided a link
>> to, it is interesting.  They make some good points. However, like
>> the PFF
>> paper, it's an advocacy document. I found no mention of municipalities
>> failing, or at least not doing as well, as commercial enterprises in
>> delivering critical services. There are certainly examples, such as
>> Philadelphia's PGW or NYC's water utility (nowhere near as bad as
>> PGW I'm
>> sure, but failing to meter water is still pretty bad). No mention of a
>> possible negative outcome from a municipal offering.
>>I am not too familiar with freepress.net but from checking their
>> web
>> site, even though they claim to be non-partisan  the stories they
>> offer seem
>> to be coming from a leftist point of view.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
>>> Of Dana Spiegel
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:06 AM
>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
>>> Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim,
>>>
>>> Perhaps you should do a bit more research.
>>>
>>> The PFF is well known to rely on half-truths and misrepresentations
>>> of fact to support their anti-municipal agenda.
>>>
>>> Free Press has released a white paper that provides the whole story,
>>> and if you look at government broadband initiatives, they are
>>> overwhelmingly cost saving and beneficial to local communities.
>>>
>>> http://www.freepress.net/docs/mb_white_paper.pdf
>>>
>>> Also, PFF's supporters include (and are primarily) every incumbent
>>> telecom and cable company: http://www.pff.org/about/supporters.html
>>>
>>> While this isn't a problem in and of itself, it should make you
>>> wonder where their views and motivations are coming from.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dana Spiegel
>>> Executive Director
>>> NYCwireless
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> www.NYCwireless.net
>>> +1 917 402 0422
>>>
>>> Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 9, 2006, at 10:04 PM, Jim Henry wrote:
>>>
 Here's an interesting study on government going into the telecom
 

Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[alex]

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006, Frank Coluccio wrote:

> On the matter of some networks working and some not, where is the board
> going with this line of discussion? Does anyone here seriously think
> that either the left or the right has a lock against this phenomenon
> from occurring? Sure, first rounds of anything have their fair share of
> flops. Look at IPTV, as initially announced by the RBOCs, for example.
Note which administrations supported meaningful competition and which ones
are completely beholden to the monopolies. Telecom Act of 96 remained more
or less intact until the Bush-appointed FCC took hold. After that, it was
all downhill.

> Also consider, AT&T (nee SBC + AT&T) is in worse shape than Verizon.
> They are using FTTNode/Curb, i.e., AT&T is not installing fiber all the
> way to the home, but only part way, and using twisted copper pairs for
> the remainder of the distance to the home. What this means is that AT&T
> doesn't even have a third optical wavelength to use for an analog video
> fix, like Verizon does, so they're sucking wind for the moment, and not
> delivering "any" video services, at all.
The jury is still *way* out what is the right way. ADSL2 is enough
capacity to give you video. FTTH of course is the ultimate, but it is
about twice as expensive per home passed. Personally, I would love nothing
more than VZ going bankrupt because of FTTH, but it is unlikely. VZ has
far more money than sense.

-alex

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Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[Frank Coluccio]

On the matter of some networks working and some not, where is the board going
with this line of discussion? Does anyone here seriously think that either the
left or the right has a lock against this phenomenon from occurring? Sure, first
rounds of anything have their fair share of flops. Look at IPTV, as initially
announced by the RBOCs, for example.

In order to remain on course, Verizon has had to launch its first video program
services through the use of cable TV industry's  "analog" RF (radio frequency)
technologies. What this means is that Verion is now sending video to residences
over a third optical signal (wavelength) in its fiber to the home network, which
they call FiOS, instead of using an all-digital, all-IP format as originally
planned. Why? Because the combination IP TV software from Microsoft and the 
other
network elements used in FiOS are not yet working satisfactorily together,
rendering unfit for prime time, yet. 

Also consider, AT&T (nee SBC + AT&T) is in worse shape than Verizon. They are
using FTTNode/Curb, i.e., AT&T is not installing fiber all the way to the home,
but only part way, and using twisted copper pairs for the remainder of the
distance to the home. What this means is that AT&T doesn't even have a third
optical wavelength to use for an analog video fix, like Verizon does, so they're
sucking wind for the moment, and not delivering "any" video services, at all. 

Neither of these examples, however, is indicative that in a year's time both
won't be up and flying. They surely will. This is how progress is made, one step
at a time, no matter what the presumed persuasion might be. 

Frank 
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Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[Michael Stearne]

On 1/13/06, vic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am tired of this conservative bashing. I am leaving this list!!
> g b all
>

Don't cut and run.

>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Dana Spiegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 12:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband
>
>
> > Jim,
> >
> > This is my last response to you, because you seem to be doing what
> > many right-wing politicians are quite good at: changing the subject.
> >
> > This shouldn't be a discussion about whether the municipal networks
> > are going to work or not. I dare-say that common sense tells us that
> > some number will be successful, and some number will not. How you
> > evaluate their outcomes relies almost entirely on your point of view.
> >
> > The real, fundamental problem is that America has slow, expensive,
> > and only partially available broadband when compared to just about
> > every other industrialized nation. This is especially embarrassing
> > considering that we invented the damn technology, and nurtured it for
> > its first two decades.
> >
> > This is a _fact_. No amount of hewing and hawing, or dancing around
> > the subject will change this.
> >
> > Another fact: our sorry state of broadband has occurred over the past
> > 5 years. A period of time when Conservative Republicans have been
> > running this country and calling (almost) all of the shots.
> >
> > So, there arise really two questions (which you seem to be entirely
> > unable to answer and which is why, I suspect, you'd rather change the
> > subject):
> >
> > 1) Why is the state of broadband in America so awful?
> > and
> > 2) What are you going to do about it?
> >
> > This is less a question for you directly, but rather a question for
> > those in charge of this Country.
> >
> > And the answer _isn't_ more competition in the future and a more open
> > marketplace with fewer regulations. THAT is an end result of good
> > policy-making. I want to know what we're doing that's failing, and
> > what we should be doing instead. If we put in place good policy, more
> > competition in a healthy marketplace will happen by itself.
> >
> > And I'm not pro-muniwireless or anti-muniwireless, or left-wing or
> > right-wing, or even Republican or Democrat. I'm an independent.
> >
> > Dana Spiegel
> > Executive Director
> > NYCwireless
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > www.NYCwireless.net
> > +1 917 402 0422
> >
> > Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info
> >
> >
> > On Jan 12, 2006, at 8:24 PM, Jim Henry wrote:
> >
> >> Dana,
> >>I've read the article you reference, and, like the one I
> >> provided a link
> >> to, it is interesting.  They make some good points. However, like
> >> the PFF
> >> paper, it's an advocacy document. I found no mention of municipalities
> >> failing, or at least not doing as well, as commercial enterprises in
> >> delivering critical services. There are certainly examples, such as
> >> Philadelphia's PGW or NYC's water utility (nowhere near as bad as
> >> PGW I'm
> >> sure, but failing to meter water is still pretty bad). No mention of a
> >> possible negative outcome from a municipal offering.
> >>I am not too familiar with freepress.net but from checking their
> >> web
> >> site, even though they claim to be non-partisan  the stories they
> >> offer seem
> >> to be coming from a leftist point of view.
> >>
> >> Jim
> >>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
> >>> Of Dana Spiegel
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:06 AM
> >>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
> >>> Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Jim,
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps you should do a bit more research.
> >>>
> >>> The PFF is well known to rely on half-truths and misrepresentations
> >>> of fact to support their anti-municipal agenda.
> >>>
> >>> Free Press has released a white paper that provides the whole story,
> >>> and if you look at government broadband initiatives, they are
> >>> overwhelmingly cost saving and beneficial to local communities.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.freepress.net/docs/mb_white_paper.pdf
> >>>
> >>> Also, PFF's supporters include (and are primarily) every incumbent
> >>> telecom and cable company: http://www.pff.org/about/supporters.html
> >>>
> >>> While this isn't a problem in and of itself, it should make you
> >>> wonder where their views and motivations are coming from.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Dana Spiegel
> >>> Executive Director
> >>> NYCwireless
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> www.NYCwireless.net
> >>> +1 917 402 0422
> >>>
> >>> Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Jan 9, 2006, at 10:04 PM, Jim Henry wrote:
> >>>
>  Here's an interesting study on government going into the telecom
>  business.
> 
>  http://www.pff.org/issues-pubs/

Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[vic]

I am tired of this conservative bashing. I am leaving this list!!
g b all


- Original Message - 
From: "Dana Spiegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: 
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband



Jim,

This is my last response to you, because you seem to be doing what  
many right-wing politicians are quite good at: changing the subject.


This shouldn't be a discussion about whether the municipal networks  
are going to work or not. I dare-say that common sense tells us that  
some number will be successful, and some number will not. How you  
evaluate their outcomes relies almost entirely on your point of view.


The real, fundamental problem is that America has slow, expensive,  
and only partially available broadband when compared to just about  
every other industrialized nation. This is especially embarrassing  
considering that we invented the damn technology, and nurtured it for  
its first two decades.


This is a _fact_. No amount of hewing and hawing, or dancing around  
the subject will change this.


Another fact: our sorry state of broadband has occurred over the past  
5 years. A period of time when Conservative Republicans have been  
running this country and calling (almost) all of the shots.


So, there arise really two questions (which you seem to be entirely  
unable to answer and which is why, I suspect, you'd rather change the  
subject):


1) Why is the state of broadband in America so awful?
and
2) What are you going to do about it?

This is less a question for you directly, but rather a question for  
those in charge of this Country.


And the answer _isn't_ more competition in the future and a more open  
marketplace with fewer regulations. THAT is an end result of good  
policy-making. I want to know what we're doing that's failing, and  
what we should be doing instead. If we put in place good policy, more  
competition in a healthy marketplace will happen by itself.


And I'm not pro-muniwireless or anti-muniwireless, or left-wing or  
right-wing, or even Republican or Democrat. I'm an independent.


Dana Spiegel
Executive Director
NYCwireless
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.NYCwireless.net
+1 917 402 0422

Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info


On Jan 12, 2006, at 8:24 PM, Jim Henry wrote:


Dana,
   I've read the article you reference, and, like the one I  
provided a link
to, it is interesting.  They make some good points. However, like  
the PFF

paper, it's an advocacy document. I found no mention of municipalities
failing, or at least not doing as well, as commercial enterprises in
delivering critical services. There are certainly examples, such as
Philadelphia's PGW or NYC's water utility (nowhere near as bad as  
PGW I'm

sure, but failing to meter water is still pretty bad). No mention of a
possible negative outcome from a municipal offering.
   I am not too familiar with freepress.net but from checking their  
web
site, even though they claim to be non-partisan  the stories they  
offer seem

to be coming from a leftist point of view.

Jim


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dana Spiegel
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:06 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband


Jim,

Perhaps you should do a bit more research.

The PFF is well known to rely on half-truths and misrepresentations
of fact to support their anti-municipal agenda.

Free Press has released a white paper that provides the whole story,
and if you look at government broadband initiatives, they are
overwhelmingly cost saving and beneficial to local communities.

http://www.freepress.net/docs/mb_white_paper.pdf

Also, PFF's supporters include (and are primarily) every incumbent
telecom and cable company: http://www.pff.org/about/supporters.html

While this isn't a problem in and of itself, it should make you
wonder where their views and motivations are coming from.


Dana Spiegel
Executive Director
NYCwireless
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.NYCwireless.net
+1 917 402 0422

Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info


On Jan 9, 2006, at 10:04 PM, Jim Henry wrote:


Here's an interesting study on government going into the telecom
business.

http://www.pff.org/issues-pubs/pops/pop11.3govtownership.pdf

Jim

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nycwireless/
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RE: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[Jim Henry]

Dustin,
It would be helpful if you would try to read and comprehend my posts
before responding.  I never said that Freepress is terrible. I said that
they claimed non-partisan status but that most of the articles on their
website seemed to be promoting a leftist agenda.  The definition of good
public policy really depends on your definition of what is good. I am for
what works, year after year, efficiently, and what generates sufficient
revenue to support and maintain itself.

Jim

> -Original Message-
> From: Dustin Goodwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:32 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: 'Dana Spiegel'; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
> Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband
> 
> 
> Jim,
> Freepress must be terrible because they are not a mouthpiece 
> for huge telecom corporations. Your right they can't be 
> trusted. Personally I would describe Freepress as politically 
> progressive. I am not sure it matters as they mostly seemed 
> interested in good public policy. Socialism, leftists... is 
> everything political? Or do some people just care about 
> running a better country?
> 
> - Dustin -
> 
> Jim Henry wrote:
> 
> >Dana,
> >   I've read the article you reference, and, like the one I 
> provided a 
> >link to, it is interesting.  They make some good points. 
> However, like 
> >the PFF paper, it's an advocacy document. I found no mention of 
> >municipalities failing, or at least not doing as well, as commercial 
> >enterprises in delivering critical services. There are certainly 
> >examples, such as Philadelphia's PGW or NYC's water utility (nowhere 
> >near as bad as PGW I'm sure, but failing to meter water is 
> still pretty 
> >bad). No mention of a possible negative outcome from a 
> municipal offering.
> >   I am not too familiar with freepress.net but from 
> checking their web 
> >site, even though they claim to be non-partisan  the stories 
> they offer 
> >seem to be coming from a leftist point of view.
> >
> >Jim
> >
> >  
> >
> >>-Original Message-
> >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
> >>Of Dana Spiegel
> >>Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:06 AM
> >>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
> >>Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband
> >>
> >>
> >>Jim,
> >>
> >>Perhaps you should do a bit more research.
> >>
> >>The PFF is well known to rely on half-truths and misrepresentations
> >>of fact to support their anti-municipal agenda.
> >>
> >>Free Press has released a white paper that provides the whole story,
> >>and if you look at government broadband initiatives, they are  
> >>overwhelmingly cost saving and beneficial to local communities.
> >>
> >>http://www.freepress.net/docs/mb_white_paper.pdf
> >>
> >>Also, PFF's supporters include (and are primarily) every incumbent
> >>telecom and cable company: http://www.pff.org/about/supporters.html
> >>
> >>While this isn't a problem in and of itself, it should make you
> >>wonder where their views and motivations are coming from.
> >>
> >>
> >>Dana Spiegel
> >>Executive Director
> >>NYCwireless
> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>www.NYCwireless.net
> >>+1 917 402 0422
> >>
> >>Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info
> >>
> >>
> >>On Jan 9, 2006, at 10:04 PM, Jim Henry wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Here's an interesting study on government going into the telecom 
> >>>business.
> >>>
> >>>http://www.pff.org/issues-pubs/pops/pop11.3govtownership.pdf
> >>>
> >>>Jim
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/
> >>>Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/
> >>>nycwireless/
> >>>Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
> >>>  
> >>>
> >>--
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> >>Un/Subscribe:
> >>http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/
> >>Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >>Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release 
> >>Date: 1/5/2006
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >--
> >NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/
> >Un/Subscribe: 
> >http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/
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> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/228 - Release 
> Date: 1/12/2006
> 
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Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[Dana Spiegel]

Jim,

This is my last response to you, because you seem to be doing what  
many right-wing politicians are quite good at: changing the subject.


This shouldn't be a discussion about whether the municipal networks  
are going to work or not. I dare-say that common sense tells us that  
some number will be successful, and some number will not. How you  
evaluate their outcomes relies almost entirely on your point of view.


The real, fundamental problem is that America has slow, expensive,  
and only partially available broadband when compared to just about  
every other industrialized nation. This is especially embarrassing  
considering that we invented the damn technology, and nurtured it for  
its first two decades.


This is a _fact_. No amount of hewing and hawing, or dancing around  
the subject will change this.


Another fact: our sorry state of broadband has occurred over the past  
5 years. A period of time when Conservative Republicans have been  
running this country and calling (almost) all of the shots.


So, there arise really two questions (which you seem to be entirely  
unable to answer and which is why, I suspect, you'd rather change the  
subject):


1) Why is the state of broadband in America so awful?
and
2) What are you going to do about it?

This is less a question for you directly, but rather a question for  
those in charge of this Country.


And the answer _isn't_ more competition in the future and a more open  
marketplace with fewer regulations. THAT is an end result of good  
policy-making. I want to know what we're doing that's failing, and  
what we should be doing instead. If we put in place good policy, more  
competition in a healthy marketplace will happen by itself.


And I'm not pro-muniwireless or anti-muniwireless, or left-wing or  
right-wing, or even Republican or Democrat. I'm an independent.


Dana Spiegel
Executive Director
NYCwireless
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.NYCwireless.net
+1 917 402 0422

Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info


On Jan 12, 2006, at 8:24 PM, Jim Henry wrote:


Dana,
   I've read the article you reference, and, like the one I  
provided a link
to, it is interesting.  They make some good points. However, like  
the PFF

paper, it's an advocacy document. I found no mention of municipalities
failing, or at least not doing as well, as commercial enterprises in
delivering critical services. There are certainly examples, such as
Philadelphia's PGW or NYC's water utility (nowhere near as bad as  
PGW I'm

sure, but failing to meter water is still pretty bad). No mention of a
possible negative outcome from a municipal offering.
   I am not too familiar with freepress.net but from checking their  
web
site, even though they claim to be non-partisan  the stories they  
offer seem

to be coming from a leftist point of view.

Jim


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dana Spiegel
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:06 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband


Jim,

Perhaps you should do a bit more research.

The PFF is well known to rely on half-truths and misrepresentations
of fact to support their anti-municipal agenda.

Free Press has released a white paper that provides the whole story,
and if you look at government broadband initiatives, they are
overwhelmingly cost saving and beneficial to local communities.

http://www.freepress.net/docs/mb_white_paper.pdf

Also, PFF's supporters include (and are primarily) every incumbent
telecom and cable company: http://www.pff.org/about/supporters.html

While this isn't a problem in and of itself, it should make you
wonder where their views and motivations are coming from.


Dana Spiegel
Executive Director
NYCwireless
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.NYCwireless.net
+1 917 402 0422

Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info


On Jan 9, 2006, at 10:04 PM, Jim Henry wrote:


Here's an interesting study on government going into the telecom
business.

http://www.pff.org/issues-pubs/pops/pop11.3govtownership.pdf

Jim

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RE: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[Jim Henry]

Dustin,
   I'm all for a free market, are you?  Are you OK with a muni network
proposal competing on a level playing field with a proposal from a
commercial enterprise? I'm not for making everything political. I'm open for
a better way to describe our difference of opinion. Are you?
   

Jim

> -Original Message-
> From: Dustin Goodwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:29 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
> Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband
> 
> 
> Jim,
> Maybe making everything political is just a way to distract 
> people from 
> the real  issue.  The lack of properly functioning free market in 
> broadband has led to crappy over-priced services for American 
> consumers 
> and businesses. The lack of public policy that encourages 
> competition in 
> broadband hurts American in the long run.
> 
> - Dustin -
> 
> Jim Henry wrote:
> 
> >Dustin,
> >"Now that Jim Henry has shown his true colors nothing he 
> says can 
> >be taken seriously."
> >
> >Now was that nice?  What ARE my true colors?  Did you miss 
> my message 
> >criticizing Verizon?
> >
> >As to PFF, better check them out. Go to www.pff.org. Click on the 
> >"About PFF" link. (Hint: If you do that, it will tell you 
> what they say 
> >they are
> >about!)
> >They seem to be pretty upfront about their mission, what 
> they promote and
> >where they are coming from.  I happen to agree with a lot of 
> that. They ALSO
> >tell you who they are and who their supporters are.
> >
> >Is public policy advocacy only OK with you when it is 
> promoting leftist 
> >policy?
> >
> >Jim
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >>-Original Message-
> >>From: Dustin Goodwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:51 PM
> >>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
> >>Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband
> >>
> >>
> >>This report is authored by the Progress & Freedom people that
> >>have been 
> >>widely outed as "Astroturf" outfit. Astroturf is new use of 
> >>the term to 
> >>describe fake consumer groups and think tanks that are just 
> >>funded with 
> >>money from Verizon and the like. These firms are nothing but 
> >>a new form 
> >>of lobbying by the incumbents meant to look like real 
> >>research. If you 
> >>like to get a list of firms that produced industry funded 
> papers and 
> >>research. Check out this article in which Progress & Freedom is 
> >>specifically outed. Now that Jim Henry has shown his true 
> >>colors nothing 
> >>he says can be taken seriously. He is a mouthpiece for the 
> >>telecom lobby 
> >>and supporter of telecom monopolies. I thought the quick turn to 
> >>shouting about socialism made him suspect in the first place.
> >>
> >>*Bell SkunkWorks* *101*
> >>
> >>*/What is Astroturf? Skunk Works?/*
> >>*/ ---/*/The 
> >>secret workings to deceive the public./
> >>
> >>http://www.newnetworks.com/skunkworks101.html
> >>
> >>
> >>http://muniwireless.com/municipal/504
> >>
> >>"Sascha Meinrath posted
> >> 
> >>a list of members of the boards of directors of two other 
> "astroturf 
> >>organizations", groups that claim to be looking out for the best 
> >>interests of the average consumer - but a quick look at their 
> >>boards of 
> >>directors tells you everything you need to know about them:
> >>
> >>Progress & Freedom Foundation
> >>
> >>*George A. (Jay) Keyworth II - Hewlett Packard Company and General
> >>Atomics * Raymond L. Gifford - President PFF * Jeffrey 
> Eisenach - PFF 
> >>and CapAnalysis * Mark Grady - George Mason Law School * 
> >>Larry Harlow - 
> >>Timmons & Company, Inc. * Peter Harter - ZG VEntures LLC"
> >>
> >>- Dustin -
> >>
> >>Jim Henry wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Here's an interesting study on government going into the telecom
> >>>business.
> >>>
> >>>http://www.pff.org/issues-pubs/pops/pop11.3govtownership.pdf
> >>>
> >>>Jim
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/
> >>>Un/Subscribe:
> >>>http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/
> >>>Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>>  
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >>Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release 
> >>Date: 1/5/2006
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/228 - Release 
> Date: 1/12/2006
> 
> 

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RE: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[Jim Henry]

MANY of us care about running a better country. Why are those from the left
so intolerant of opinions they disagreee with?

Jim

> -Original Message-
> From: Dustin Goodwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 10:57 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: 'Dana Spiegel'; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
> Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband
> 
> 
> Jim,
> Freepress must be terrible because they are not a mouthpiece for huge 
> telecom corporations. Your right they can't be trusted. Personally I 
> would describe Freepress as politically progressive. I am not sure it 
> matters as they mostly seemed interested in good public policy. 
> Socialism, leftists... is everything political? Or do some 
> people just 
> care about running a better country?
> 
> - Dustin -
> 
> Jim Henry wrote:
> 
> >Dana,
> >   I've read the article you reference, and, like the one I 
> provided a 
> >link to, it is interesting.  They make some good points. 
> However, like 
> >the PFF paper, it's an advocacy document. I found no mention of 
> >municipalities failing, or at least not doing as well, as commercial 
> >enterprises in delivering critical services. There are certainly 
> >examples, such as Philadelphia's PGW or NYC's water utility (nowhere 
> >near as bad as PGW I'm sure, but failing to meter water is 
> still pretty 
> >bad). No mention of a possible negative outcome from a 
> municipal offering.
> >   I am not too familiar with freepress.net but from 
> checking their web 
> >site, even though they claim to be non-partisan  the stories 
> they offer 
> >seem to be coming from a leftist point of view.
> >
> >Jim
> >
> >  
> >
> >>-Original Message-
> >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
> >>Of Dana Spiegel
> >>Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:06 AM
> >>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
> >>Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband
> >>
> >>
> >>Jim,
> >>
> >>Perhaps you should do a bit more research.
> >>
> >>The PFF is well known to rely on half-truths and misrepresentations
> >>of fact to support their anti-municipal agenda.
> >>
> >>Free Press has released a white paper that provides the whole story,
> >>and if you look at government broadband initiatives, they are  
> >>overwhelmingly cost saving and beneficial to local communities.
> >>
> >>http://www.freepress.net/docs/mb_white_paper.pdf
> >>
> >>Also, PFF's supporters include (and are primarily) every incumbent
> >>telecom and cable company: http://www.pff.org/about/supporters.html
> >>
> >>While this isn't a problem in and of itself, it should make you
> >>wonder where their views and motivations are coming from.
> >>
> >>
> >>Dana Spiegel
> >>Executive Director
> >>NYCwireless
> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>www.NYCwireless.net
> >>+1 917 402 0422
> >>
> >>Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info
> >>
> >>
> >>On Jan 9, 2006, at 10:04 PM, Jim Henry wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Here's an interesting study on government going into the telecom 
> >>>business.
> >>>
> >>>http://www.pff.org/issues-pubs/pops/pop11.3govtownership.pdf
> >>>
> >>>Jim
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/
> >>>Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/
> >>>nycwireless/
> >>>Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
> >>>  
> >>>
> >>--
> >>NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/
> >>Un/Subscribe:
> >>http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/
> >>Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >>Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release 
> >>Date: 1/5/2006
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >--
> >NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/
> >Un/Subscribe: 
> >http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/
> >Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/228 - Release 
> Date: 1/12/2006
> 
> 

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RE: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[Jim Henry]

For gosh sakes, look at their (PFF.org)web site!  They LIST their sponsors.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
> Of Rob Kelley
> Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 10:41 PM
> To: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
> Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband
> 
> 
> Sourcewatch.org (formerly Disinfopedia.org) gives a better 
> background on PFF:
> * Lists as supporters BellSouth, EchoStar Communications 
> Corporation, Sprint, Philip Morris, and RJ Reynolds
> * Was the thinktank behind Newt Gingrich's project to 
> redesign the FDA (the leader of Gingrich's PAC is on the board)
> * Wrote several articles critical of open-source software 
> while listing Microsoft as a supporter
> 
> [http://sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Progress_and_Freedom_F
oundation
]

But why is this point important for a tech board?  

Articles from the Progress & Freedom Foundation are an example of
disinformation.  Disinformation works on a rational level (offering up
strawman arguments and dubious analyses) in order to build noise into a
discussion.  The discussion's signal-to-noise ratio becomes so bad very
little meaningful information makes it through. 

Check the latest NYCw front page article for how even the FCC has gotten
confused about the fact of natural monopoly (water, electricity,
cabling):

[http://nycwireless.net/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=56 ]

Cheers, 

Rob

P.S. Want to become savvier about where your media comes from?  Check
SourceWatch.org.


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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RE: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[Jim Henry]

Billy Bob,
   Don't get your panties in a bunch. Just responding to a post directed at
me. 

> -Original Message-
> From: Billy Bob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:55 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Dustin Goodwin'
> Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
> Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband
> 
> 
> Give it up.!
> 
> Go back to technology
> 
>  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
> Of Jim Henry
> Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 7:38 PM
> To: 'Dustin Goodwin'
> Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
> Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband
> 
> Dustin,
> "Now that Jim Henry has shown his true colors nothing he 
> says can be taken seriously."
> 
> Now was that nice?  What ARE my true colors?  Did you miss my 
> message criticizing Verizon?
> 
> As to PFF, better check them out. Go to www.pff.org. Click on 
> the "About PFF" link. (Hint: If you do that, it will tell you 
> what they say they are
> about!)
> They seem to be pretty upfront about their mission, what they 
> promote and where they are coming from.  I happen to agree 
> with a lot of that. They ALSO tell you who they are and who 
> their supporters are.
> 
> Is public policy advocacy only OK with you when it is 
> promoting leftist policy?
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Dustin Goodwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:51 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
> > Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband
> > 
> > 
> > This report is authored by the Progress & Freedom people that have
> > been widely outed as "Astroturf" outfit. Astroturf is new 
> use of the 
> > term to describe fake consumer groups and think tanks that are just 
> > funded with money from Verizon and the like. These firms 
> are nothing 
> > but a new form of lobbying by the incumbents meant to look 
> like real 
> > research. If you like to get a list of firms that produced industry 
> > funded papers and research. Check out this article in which 
> Progress & 
> > Freedom is specifically outed. Now that Jim Henry has shown 
> his true 
> > colors nothing he says can be taken seriously. He is a 
> mouthpiece for 
> > the telecom lobby and supporter of telecom monopolies. I 
> thought the 
> > quick turn to shouting about socialism made him suspect in 
> the first 
> > place.
> > 
> > *Bell SkunkWorks* *101*
> > 
> > */What is Astroturf? Skunk Works?/* 
> > */ ---/*/The 
> > secret workings to deceive the public./
> > 
> > http://www.newnetworks.com/skunkworks101.html
> > 
> > 
> > http://muniwireless.com/municipal/504
> > 
> > "Sascha Meinrath posted 
> > 
> > a list of members of the boards of directors of two other "astroturf
> > organizations", groups that claim to be looking out for the best 
> > interests of the average consumer - but a quick look at 
> their boards 
> > of directors tells you everything you need to know about them:
> > 
> > Progress & Freedom Foundation
> > 
> > *George A. (Jay) Keyworth II - Hewlett Packard Company and General
> > Atomics * Raymond L. Gifford - President PFF * Jeffrey 
> Eisenach - PFF 
> > and CapAnalysis * Mark Grady - George Mason Law School * 
> Larry Harlow 
> > - Timmons & Company, Inc. * Peter Harter - ZG VEntures LLC"
> > 
> > - Dustin -
> > 
> > Jim Henry wrote:
> > 
> > >Here's an interesting study on government going into the telecom
> > >business.
> > >
> > >http://www.pff.org/issues-pubs/pops/pop11.3govtownership.pdf
> > >
> > >Jim
> > >
> > >--
> > >NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/
> > >Un/Subscribe:
> > >http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/
> > >Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
> > >  
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release
> > Date: 1/5/2006
> > 
> > 
> 
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Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[Dustin Goodwin]

Jim,
Freepress must be terrible because they are not a mouthpiece for huge
telecom corporations. Your right they can't be trusted. Personally I
would describe Freepress as politically progressive. I am not sure it
matters as they mostly seemed interested in good public policy.
Socialism, leftists... is everything political? Or do some people just
care about running a better country?

- Dustin -

Jim Henry wrote:


Dana,
  I've read the article you reference, and, like the one I provided a link
to, it is interesting.  They make some good points. However, like the PFF
paper, it's an advocacy document. I found no mention of municipalities
failing, or at least not doing as well, as commercial enterprises in
delivering critical services. There are certainly examples, such as
Philadelphia's PGW or NYC's water utility (nowhere near as bad as PGW I'm
sure, but failing to meter water is still pretty bad). No mention of a
possible negative outcome from a municipal offering.
  I am not too familiar with freepress.net but from checking their web
site, even though they claim to be non-partisan  the stories they offer seem
to be coming from a leftist point of view.

Jim

 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
Of Dana Spiegel

Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:06 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband


Jim,

Perhaps you should do a bit more research.

The PFF is well known to rely on half-truths and misrepresentations  
of fact to support their anti-municipal agenda.


Free Press has released a white paper that provides the whole story,  
and if you look at government broadband initiatives, they are  
overwhelmingly cost saving and beneficial to local communities.


http://www.freepress.net/docs/mb_white_paper.pdf

Also, PFF's supporters include (and are primarily) every incumbent  
telecom and cable company: http://www.pff.org/about/supporters.html


While this isn't a problem in and of itself, it should make you  
wonder where their views and motivations are coming from.



Dana Spiegel
Executive Director
NYCwireless
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.NYCwireless.net
+1 917 402 0422

Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info


On Jan 9, 2006, at 10:04 PM, Jim Henry wrote:

   


Here's an interesting study on government going into the telecom
business.

http://www.pff.org/issues-pubs/pops/pop11.3govtownership.pdf

Jim

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Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[Dustin Goodwin]

Jim,
Maybe making everything political is just a way to distract people from 
the real  issue.  The lack of properly functioning free market in 
broadband has led to crappy over-priced services for American consumers 
and businesses. The lack of public policy that encourages competition in 
broadband hurts American in the long run.


- Dustin -

Jim Henry wrote:


Dustin,
   "Now that Jim Henry has shown his true colors nothing he says can be
taken seriously."

Now was that nice?  What ARE my true colors?  Did you miss my message
criticizing Verizon?

As to PFF, better check them out. Go to www.pff.org. Click on the "About
PFF" link. (Hint: If you do that, it will tell you what they say they are
about!)
They seem to be pretty upfront about their mission, what they promote and
where they are coming from.  I happen to agree with a lot of that. They ALSO
tell you who they are and who their supporters are.

Is public policy advocacy only OK with you when it is promoting leftist
policy?

Jim


 


-Original Message-
From: Dustin Goodwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:51 PM

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband


This report is authored by the Progress & Freedom people that 
have been 
widely outed as "Astroturf" outfit. Astroturf is new use of 
the term to 
describe fake consumer groups and think tanks that are just 
funded with 
money from Verizon and the like. These firms are nothing but 
a new form 
of lobbying by the incumbents meant to look like real 
research. If you 
like to get a list of firms that produced industry funded papers and 
research. Check out this article in which Progress & Freedom is 
specifically outed. Now that Jim Henry has shown his true 
colors nothing 
he says can be taken seriously. He is a mouthpiece for the 
telecom lobby 
and supporter of telecom monopolies. I thought the quick turn to 
shouting about socialism made him suspect in the first place.


*Bell SkunkWorks* *101*

*/What is Astroturf? Skunk Works?/* 
*/ ---/*/The 
secret workings to deceive the public./


http://www.newnetworks.com/skunkworks101.html


http://muniwireless.com/municipal/504

"Sascha Meinrath posted 
 
a list of members of the boards of directors of two other "astroturf 
organizations", groups that claim to be looking out for the best 
interests of the average consumer - but a quick look at their 
boards of 
directors tells you everything you need to know about them:


Progress & Freedom Foundation

*George A. (Jay) Keyworth II - Hewlett Packard Company and General 
Atomics * Raymond L. Gifford - President PFF * Jeffrey Eisenach - PFF 
and CapAnalysis * Mark Grady - George Mason Law School * 
Larry Harlow - 
Timmons & Company, Inc. * Peter Harter - ZG VEntures LLC"


- Dustin -

Jim Henry wrote:

   

Here's an interesting study on government going into the telecom 
business.


http://www.pff.org/issues-pubs/pops/pop11.3govtownership.pdf

Jim

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RE: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[Rob Kelley]

Sourcewatch.org (formerly Disinfopedia.org) gives a better background
on PFF:
* Lists as supporters BellSouth, EchoStar Communications Corporation,
Sprint, Philip Morris, and RJ Reynolds
* Was the thinktank behind Newt Gingrich's project to redesign the FDA
(the leader of Gingrich's PAC is on the board)
* Wrote several articles critical of open-source software while listing
Microsoft as a supporter

[http://sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Progress_and_Freedom_Foundation
]

But why is this point important for a tech board?  

Articles from the Progress & Freedom Foundation are an example of
disinformation.  Disinformation works on a rational level (offering up
strawman arguments and dubious analyses) in order to build noise into a
discussion.  The discussion's signal-to-noise ratio becomes so bad very
little meaningful information makes it through. 

Check the latest NYCw front page article for how even the FCC has
gotten confused about the fact of natural monopoly (water, electricity,
cabling):

[http://nycwireless.net/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=56 ]

Cheers, 

Rob

P.S. Want to become savvier about where your media comes from?  Check
SourceWatch.org.


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RE: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[Billy Bob]

Give it up.!

Go back to technology

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Henry
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 7:38 PM
To: 'Dustin Goodwin'
Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

Dustin,
"Now that Jim Henry has shown his true colors nothing he says can be
taken seriously."

Now was that nice?  What ARE my true colors?  Did you miss my message
criticizing Verizon?

As to PFF, better check them out. Go to www.pff.org. Click on the "About
PFF" link. (Hint: If you do that, it will tell you what they say they are
about!)
They seem to be pretty upfront about their mission, what they promote and
where they are coming from.  I happen to agree with a lot of that. They ALSO
tell you who they are and who their supporters are.

Is public policy advocacy only OK with you when it is promoting leftist
policy?

Jim


> -Original Message-
> From: Dustin Goodwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:51 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
> Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband
> 
> 
> This report is authored by the Progress & Freedom people that have 
> been widely outed as "Astroturf" outfit. Astroturf is new use of the 
> term to describe fake consumer groups and think tanks that are just 
> funded with money from Verizon and the like. These firms are nothing 
> but a new form of lobbying by the incumbents meant to look like real 
> research. If you like to get a list of firms that produced industry 
> funded papers and research. Check out this article in which Progress & 
> Freedom is specifically outed. Now that Jim Henry has shown his true 
> colors nothing he says can be taken seriously. He is a mouthpiece for 
> the telecom lobby and supporter of telecom monopolies. I thought the 
> quick turn to shouting about socialism made him suspect in the first 
> place.
> 
> *Bell SkunkWorks* *101*
> 
> */What is Astroturf? Skunk Works?/*
> */ ---/*/The 
> secret workings to deceive the public./
> 
> http://www.newnetworks.com/skunkworks101.html
> 
> 
> http://muniwireless.com/municipal/504
> 
> "Sascha Meinrath posted
> 
> a list of members of the boards of directors of two other "astroturf 
> organizations", groups that claim to be looking out for the best 
> interests of the average consumer - but a quick look at their boards 
> of directors tells you everything you need to know about them:
> 
> Progress & Freedom Foundation
> 
> *George A. (Jay) Keyworth II - Hewlett Packard Company and General 
> Atomics * Raymond L. Gifford - President PFF * Jeffrey Eisenach - PFF 
> and CapAnalysis * Mark Grady - George Mason Law School * Larry Harlow 
> - Timmons & Company, Inc. * Peter Harter - ZG VEntures LLC"
> 
> - Dustin -
> 
> Jim Henry wrote:
> 
> >Here's an interesting study on government going into the telecom 
> >business.
> >
> >http://www.pff.org/issues-pubs/pops/pop11.3govtownership.pdf
> >
> >Jim
> >
> >--
> >NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/
> >Un/Subscribe: 
> >http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/
> >Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release
> Date: 1/5/2006
> 
> 

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RE: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[Jim Henry]

Dustin,
"Now that Jim Henry has shown his true colors nothing he says can be
taken seriously."

Now was that nice?  What ARE my true colors?  Did you miss my message
criticizing Verizon?

As to PFF, better check them out. Go to www.pff.org. Click on the "About
PFF" link. (Hint: If you do that, it will tell you what they say they are
about!)
They seem to be pretty upfront about their mission, what they promote and
where they are coming from.  I happen to agree with a lot of that. They ALSO
tell you who they are and who their supporters are.

Is public policy advocacy only OK with you when it is promoting leftist
policy?

Jim


> -Original Message-
> From: Dustin Goodwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:51 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
> Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband
> 
> 
> This report is authored by the Progress & Freedom people that 
> have been 
> widely outed as "Astroturf" outfit. Astroturf is new use of 
> the term to 
> describe fake consumer groups and think tanks that are just 
> funded with 
> money from Verizon and the like. These firms are nothing but 
> a new form 
> of lobbying by the incumbents meant to look like real 
> research. If you 
> like to get a list of firms that produced industry funded papers and 
> research. Check out this article in which Progress & Freedom is 
> specifically outed. Now that Jim Henry has shown his true 
> colors nothing 
> he says can be taken seriously. He is a mouthpiece for the 
> telecom lobby 
> and supporter of telecom monopolies. I thought the quick turn to 
> shouting about socialism made him suspect in the first place.
> 
> *Bell SkunkWorks* *101*
> 
> */What is Astroturf? Skunk Works?/* 
> */ ---/*/The 
> secret workings to deceive the public./
> 
> http://www.newnetworks.com/skunkworks101.html
> 
> 
> http://muniwireless.com/municipal/504
> 
> "Sascha Meinrath posted 
>  
> a list of members of the boards of directors of two other "astroturf 
> organizations", groups that claim to be looking out for the best 
> interests of the average consumer - but a quick look at their 
> boards of 
> directors tells you everything you need to know about them:
> 
> Progress & Freedom Foundation
> 
> *George A. (Jay) Keyworth II - Hewlett Packard Company and General 
> Atomics * Raymond L. Gifford - President PFF * Jeffrey Eisenach - PFF 
> and CapAnalysis * Mark Grady - George Mason Law School * 
> Larry Harlow - 
> Timmons & Company, Inc. * Peter Harter - ZG VEntures LLC"
> 
> - Dustin -
> 
> Jim Henry wrote:
> 
> >Here's an interesting study on government going into the telecom 
> >business.
> >
> >http://www.pff.org/issues-pubs/pops/pop11.3govtownership.pdf
> >
> >Jim
> >
> >--
> >NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/
> >Un/Subscribe: 
> >http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/
> >Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release 
> Date: 1/5/2006
> 
> 

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RE: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[Jim Henry]

Dana,
   I've read the article you reference, and, like the one I provided a link
to, it is interesting.  They make some good points. However, like the PFF
paper, it's an advocacy document. I found no mention of municipalities
failing, or at least not doing as well, as commercial enterprises in
delivering critical services. There are certainly examples, such as
Philadelphia's PGW or NYC's water utility (nowhere near as bad as PGW I'm
sure, but failing to meter water is still pretty bad). No mention of a
possible negative outcome from a municipal offering.
   I am not too familiar with freepress.net but from checking their web
site, even though they claim to be non-partisan  the stories they offer seem
to be coming from a leftist point of view.

Jim

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
> Of Dana Spiegel
> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:06 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
> Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband
> 
> 
> Jim,
> 
> Perhaps you should do a bit more research.
> 
> The PFF is well known to rely on half-truths and misrepresentations  
> of fact to support their anti-municipal agenda.
> 
> Free Press has released a white paper that provides the whole story,  
> and if you look at government broadband initiatives, they are  
> overwhelmingly cost saving and beneficial to local communities.
> 
> http://www.freepress.net/docs/mb_white_paper.pdf
> 
> Also, PFF's supporters include (and are primarily) every incumbent  
> telecom and cable company: http://www.pff.org/about/supporters.html
> 
> While this isn't a problem in and of itself, it should make you  
> wonder where their views and motivations are coming from.
> 
> 
> Dana Spiegel
> Executive Director
> NYCwireless
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.NYCwireless.net
> +1 917 402 0422
> 
> Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info
> 
> 
> On Jan 9, 2006, at 10:04 PM, Jim Henry wrote:
> 
> > Here's an interesting study on government going into the telecom
> > business.
> >
> > http://www.pff.org/issues-pubs/pops/pop11.3govtownership.pdf
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > --
> > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/
> > Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/
> > nycwireless/
> > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
> 
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> http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release 
> Date: 1/5/2006
> 
> 

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RE: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband

[Rob Kelley]

Jim:

NYCwireless acts as New York City consumers' advocate in the municipal
wireless debates.  In that role, it has a responsibility to point out
astroturf and FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) articles when it sees
them.

Outfits like PFF and Heartland Institute get their funding from
corporations who are against any municipal wireless plan that the
corporation cannot control.

Rob

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FUD


--- Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dana,
>Perhjaps you should not jump to conclusions. I received thatr
> article
> from CNET News that mornign. It looked interesting. I sent and email
> that
> said "here is an interesting article." I still believe it is
> interesting.
> Jim
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
> > Of Dana Spiegel
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:06 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net
> > Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Governement run telecom and broadband
> > 
> > 
> > Jim,
> > 
> > Perhaps you should do a bit more research.
> > 
> > The PFF is well known to rely on half-truths and misrepresentations
>  
> > of fact to support their anti-municipal agenda.
> > 
> > Free Press has released a white paper that provides the whole
> story,  
> > and if you look at government broadband initiatives, they are  
> > overwhelmingly cost saving and beneficial to local communities.
> > 
> > http://www.freepress.net/docs/mb_white_paper.pdf
> > 
> > Also, PFF's supporters include (and are primarily) every incumbent 
> 
> > telecom and cable company: http://www.pff.org/about/supporters.html
> > 
> > While this isn't a problem in and of itself, it should make you  
> > wonder where their views and motivations are coming from.
> > 
> > 
> > Dana Spiegel
> > Executive Director
> > NYCwireless
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > www.NYCwireless.net
> > +1 917 402 0422
> > 
> > Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info
> > 
> > 
> > On Jan 9, 2006, at 10:04 PM, Jim Henry wrote:
> > 
> > > Here's an interesting study on government going into the telecom
> > > business.
> > >
> > > http://www.pff.org/issues-pubs/pops/pop11.3govtownership.pdf
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> > > --
> > > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/
> > > Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/
> > > nycwireless/
> > > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
> > 
> > --
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> > Un/Subscribe: 
> > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/
> > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release 
> > Date: 1/5/2006
> > 
> > 
> 
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