Re: [Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-09-30 Thread Ralph Versteegen
On 9/10/07, Simon Bradley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 9/9/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Sun, Sep 09, 2007 at 06:06:30PM +1200, Ralph Versteegen wrote:
   On 9/7/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
Ack! How the heck did I forget hspeak? No wonder I had room for
madplay+oggenc :(
   
   Good news! We forgot UPX!
  
   After running game and custom through UPX on brute force strength
   (eclipsed only by the ULTRA-BRUTE setting in terms of CPU wastage) I
   managed add madplay, oggenc, plotdictionary.html and whatsnew.txt into
   the floppy package with just 37kb of floppy space to spare. Yes, it
   takes several minutes to compress each of game and custom, but we're
   only doing it once.
   Why did you leave whatsnew.txt out anyway? Forgot again?
  
   The commands: (should we add upx.exe to /support?)
   upx --brute game.exe
   upx --brute custom.exe
 
  Interesting. I had totally abandoned UPX, because when I last tried it
  (years ago) compressing with UPX compressed EXEs always resulted in ZIP
  compression what was worse than if I had never used UPX... but I didn't
  know about --brute, and I guess UPX's compression algorithms could have
  improved since then.

I had a 2002 version of UPX. Updating, I found they greatly simplified
the commandline options (--brute is new), and it seems compression is
also a lot better. But UPX does much better than zipping. (.zip is a
pretty bad format anyway) See below

 
   (If we were really desperate to squeeze out extra kB, we could
   decompress oggenc, madplay and hspeak and recompress them at brute
   force strength (which tries 36 compression settings), and do
   SDL_mixer.dll too (compressed dll's can't be shared between programs
   using the same dll, but this shouldn't be too big a problem for our
   custom build)
 
  Actually, that is probably a good thing. Since we are not installing our
  dll's system-wide, it is better that they can't be shared with other
  apps.
 
   We could run nightly builds of game and custom through UPX at --best
   setting too: this shaves about 100kb off the zips, and only takes a
   couple seconds.
 
  The nightyly builds run on a Qemu instance on a MacOS X box, and they
  are slooow, so it would be a heck of a lot more than a few extra
  seconds-- but it could still be worth it.
 

 What's a floppy disk?

 Seriously, this machine is now about 9 years old, and I can probably
 count the number of times I've used a floppy on two hands (in fact,
 the only occasion I can remember was when   I needed some files off my
 Atari ST, which was a 720k floppy anyway).

 I use USB drives for carrying things around these days, and my
 smallest capacity is 16Mb.

I don't have a USB drive, I burn CDs for large stuff (since it is
generally things that I would like a backup of anyway), use networks,
and occasionally floppies when windows dies or I boot into pure DOS or
I want to use an old 486 I have lying around.


 I really don't see the point in spending a lot of time on this.

Well, if anyone uses it they'd might like those utilities. If it's
scrapped, I think we could still do with ohrrpgce_play, since a lot of
OHR games come without (or with old builds of) Game, and the full
distribution is quite large.

 I'm sure UPX compression can be beaten by non-executable compression,
 such as the free open-source 7zip. Is this distribution supposed to be
 executable from the floppy or just unpackable from the floppy?

OK, I tried out 7zip:
Using game.exe at various UPX compression, and trying zip -9, 7zip
(ultra, deflate), winrar (best compression) to produce .zips, and also
a .7z:

game.exe:  662,528 bytes
  zip: 258,250
  7zip: 248,607
  winrar: 257,933

  game.7z: 182,914

game.exe through UPX --best: 208,384
  zip: 204,933

game.exe through UPX --brute: 189,952
  zip: 187,324
  winrar: 187,165
  7zip: 186,751

  game.7z: 189,264

So UPX --brute shaves 70kb off the zip.

7zip did better .zip compression than anything else, but it was still
way off UPX. I should note that UPX tries LZMA, the default algorithm
for .7z files., while zips morely use the notsogood deflate algorithm.

TMC
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Re: [Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-09-09 Thread Ralph Versteegen
On 9/7/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 03:39:41AM +1200, Ralph Versteegen wrote:
  On 9/6/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 09:10:02AM +0930, David Gowers wrote:
On 9/6/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 08:15:48AM -0700, James Paige wrote:
  On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 07:57:27PM +1200, Ralph Versteegen wrote:
   James! James! You forgot plotdictionary.html! I really hope you 
   don't
   try to justify using the wiki instead. It's just not convenient! 
   The
   html file has related commands documentated sequentially, normally
   assuming that you don't need cross links to find relevant commands
   documented one paragraph down the page.
 
  I see the value in having the all-in-one file, but I don't see the
  advantage of actually including the file. How about if I ad a URL
  shortcut that points to
  http://hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/docs/plotdict.xml

 ... actually, I just realized why I still need to include
 plotdictionary.html ... because a lot of people will be installing 
 right
 over a previous installation, and if their old plotdict.html doesn't 
 get
 overwritten with a new one, they will be wondering why they cant find
 the docs for the new commands (or they won't even know the new 
 commands
 exist at all)
   
Then why don't you just make plotdict.html contain a single link to
http://hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/docs/plotdict.xml, plus some blurb
about new location?
  
   generating plotdictionary.html from plotdict.xml is pretty easy, and
   keeping plotdictionary.html is a courtesy to those who are masochistic
   enough to keep using hssed :)
  
   ---
   James Paige
 
  On my computer it takes about 15 seconds to render plotdict.xml, but I
  still prefer it to the wiki.
  The html version will compress down to only a few kB. I don't see any
  good reason to leave it out even if people didn't have old copies
  lying around. The full package and installers are meant to include
  everything you need to make a game, and plotscripting documentation is
  definitely part of that.

 The slowness of plotdict.xml is a good point. it takes about 12 seconds
 on my very-fast work computer.

  (Also, I still use Hssed, but I don't normally use its help function)

 Funny, that was the only feature of HssEd that I missed when I started
 doing my plotscripting in SciTE

  Actually, what exactly is the aim of the minimalist .zip?

 A not insignifigant contingent of OHR users genuinely wants to put the
 zip on a floppy to take it home. Remember that the OHR is a low-system
 requirement program, that makes it attractive to people who still use
 floppies for things.

 Of course, feedback on the floppy release of ubersetzung will detemine
 whether or not we keep doing it in Voxhumana.

  It doesn't
  include the necessities for scripting, and the only way to get them is
  by getting the full distribution, OR a nightly and an HSpeak nightly
  at the point Ubersetzung was released. A nightly HSpeak after the
  release may not be compatible. It's sort of more of a ohrrpgce_play
  with Custom thrown in for examining games.

 Ack! How the heck did I forget hspeak? No wonder I had room for
 madplay+oggenc :(

Good news! We forgot UPX!

After running game and custom through UPX on brute force strength
(eclipsed only by the ULTRA-BRUTE setting in terms of CPU wastage) I
managed add madplay, oggenc, plotdictionary.html and whatsnew.txt into
the floppy package with just 37kb of floppy space to spare. Yes, it
takes several minutes to compress each of game and custom, but we're
only doing it once.
Why did you leave whatsnew.txt out anyway? Forgot again?

The commands: (should we add upx.exe to /support?)
upx --brute game.exe
upx --brute custom.exe

(If we were really desperate to squeeze out extra kB, we could
decompress oggenc, madplay and hspeak and recompress them at brute
force strength (which tries 36 compression settings), and do
SDL_mixer.dll too (compressed dll's can't be shared between programs
using the same dll, but this shouldn't be too big a problem for our
custom build)

We could run nightly builds of game and custom through UPX at --best
setting too: this shaves about 100kb off the zips, and only takes a
couple seconds.

TMC
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Re: [Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-09-06 Thread Ralph Versteegen
On 9/6/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 09:10:02AM +0930, David Gowers wrote:
  On 9/6/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 08:15:48AM -0700, James Paige wrote:
On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 07:57:27PM +1200, Ralph Versteegen wrote:
 James! James! You forgot plotdictionary.html! I really hope you don't
 try to justify using the wiki instead. It's just not convenient! The
 html file has related commands documentated sequentially, normally
 assuming that you don't need cross links to find relevant commands
 documented one paragraph down the page.
   
I see the value in having the all-in-one file, but I don't see the
advantage of actually including the file. How about if I ad a URL
shortcut that points to
http://hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/docs/plotdict.xml
  
   ... actually, I just realized why I still need to include
   plotdictionary.html ... because a lot of people will be installing right
   over a previous installation, and if their old plotdict.html doesn't get
   overwritten with a new one, they will be wondering why they cant find
   the docs for the new commands (or they won't even know the new commands
   exist at all)
 
  Then why don't you just make plotdict.html contain a single link to
  http://hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/docs/plotdict.xml, plus some blurb
  about new location?

 generating plotdictionary.html from plotdict.xml is pretty easy, and
 keeping plotdictionary.html is a courtesy to those who are masochistic
 enough to keep using hssed :)

 ---
 James Paige

On my computer it takes about 15 seconds to render plotdict.xml, but I
still prefer it to the wiki.
The html version will compress down to only a few kB. I don't see any
good reason to leave it out even if people didn't have old copies
lying around. The full package and installers are meant to include
everything you need to make a game, and plotscripting documentation is
definitely part of that.

(Also, I still use Hssed, but I don't normally use its help function)

Actually, what exactly is the aim of the minimalist .zip? It doesn't
include the necessities for scripting, and the only way to get them is
by getting the full distribution, OR a nightly and an HSpeak nightly
at the point Ubersetzung was released. A nightly HSpeak after the
release may not be compatible. It's sort of more of a ohrrpgce_play
with Custom thrown in for examining games.

TMC
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Re: [Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-09-06 Thread James Paige
On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 03:39:41AM +1200, Ralph Versteegen wrote:
 On 9/6/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 09:10:02AM +0930, David Gowers wrote:
   On 9/6/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 08:15:48AM -0700, James Paige wrote:
 On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 07:57:27PM +1200, Ralph Versteegen wrote:
  James! James! You forgot plotdictionary.html! I really hope you 
  don't
  try to justify using the wiki instead. It's just not convenient! The
  html file has related commands documentated sequentially, normally
  assuming that you don't need cross links to find relevant commands
  documented one paragraph down the page.

 I see the value in having the all-in-one file, but I don't see the
 advantage of actually including the file. How about if I ad a URL
 shortcut that points to
 http://hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/docs/plotdict.xml
   
... actually, I just realized why I still need to include
plotdictionary.html ... because a lot of people will be installing right
over a previous installation, and if their old plotdict.html doesn't get
overwritten with a new one, they will be wondering why they cant find
the docs for the new commands (or they won't even know the new commands
exist at all)
  
   Then why don't you just make plotdict.html contain a single link to
   http://hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/docs/plotdict.xml, plus some blurb
   about new location?
 
  generating plotdictionary.html from plotdict.xml is pretty easy, and
  keeping plotdictionary.html is a courtesy to those who are masochistic
  enough to keep using hssed :)
 
  ---
  James Paige
 
 On my computer it takes about 15 seconds to render plotdict.xml, but I
 still prefer it to the wiki.
 The html version will compress down to only a few kB. I don't see any
 good reason to leave it out even if people didn't have old copies
 lying around. The full package and installers are meant to include
 everything you need to make a game, and plotscripting documentation is
 definitely part of that.

The slowness of plotdict.xml is a good point. it takes about 12 seconds 
on my very-fast work computer.

 (Also, I still use Hssed, but I don't normally use its help function)

Funny, that was the only feature of HssEd that I missed when I started 
doing my plotscripting in SciTE

 Actually, what exactly is the aim of the minimalist .zip?

A not insignifigant contingent of OHR users genuinely wants to put the 
zip on a floppy to take it home. Remember that the OHR is a low-system 
requirement program, that makes it attractive to people who still use 
floppies for things.

Of course, feedback on the floppy release of ubersetzung will detemine 
whether or not we keep doing it in Voxhumana.

 It doesn't
 include the necessities for scripting, and the only way to get them is
 by getting the full distribution, OR a nightly and an HSpeak nightly
 at the point Ubersetzung was released. A nightly HSpeak after the
 release may not be compatible. It's sort of more of a ohrrpgce_play
 with Custom thrown in for examining games.

Ack! How the heck did I forget hspeak? No wonder I had room for 
madplay+oggenc :(

---
James Paige
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Re: [Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-09-06 Thread Kizul Emeraldfire
On 9/5/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 09:10:02AM +0930, David Gowers wrote:
  On 9/6/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 08:15:48AM -0700, James Paige wrote:
On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 07:57:27PM +1200, Ralph Versteegen wrote:
 James! James! You forgot plotdictionary.html! I really hope you
 don't
 try to justify using the wiki instead. It's just not convenient!
 The
 html file has related commands documentated sequentially, normally
 assuming that you don't need cross links to find relevant commands
 documented one paragraph down the page.
   
I see the value in having the all-in-one file, but I don't see the
advantage of actually including the file. How about if I ad a URL
shortcut that points to
http://hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/docs/plotdict.xml
  
   ... actually, I just realized why I still need to include
   plotdictionary.html ... because a lot of people will be installing
 right
   over a previous installation, and if their old plotdict.html doesn't
 get
   overwritten with a new one, they will be wondering why they cant find
   the docs for the new commands (or they won't even know the new
 commands
   exist at all)
 
  Then why don't you just make plotdict.html contain a single link to
  http://hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/docs/plotdict.xml, plus some blurb
  about new location?

 generating plotdictionary.html from plotdict.xml is pretty easy, and
 keeping plotdictionary.html is a courtesy to those who are masochistic
 enough to keep using hssed :)


You mean there're actually better alternatives now? o.O I've just been using
HSSEd! XD I, for one, love the help feature on it. :)
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Re: [Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-09-06 Thread Adam Perry
On 9/6/07, Kizul Emeraldfire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 You mean there're actually better alternatives now? o.O I've just been using
 HSSEd! XD I, for one, love the help feature on it. :)

I've always used notepad, myself... What's this help feature I keep
hearing about? (Sounds useful, actually :) )
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Re: [Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-09-06 Thread James Paige
On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 12:21:24PM -0500, Kizul Emeraldfire wrote:
On 9/5/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  generating plotdictionary.html from plotdict.xml is pretty easy, and
  keeping plotdictionary.html is a courtesy to those who are masochistic
  enough to keep using hssed :)
 
You mean there're actually better alternatives now? o.O I've just been
using HSSEd! XD I, for one, love the help feature on it. :)

Nah, I just use a generic source code editor (SciTE)

I think the best way to implement an HssEd replacement might be to write 
a plug-in for some existing source code editor.

---
James Paige
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Re: [Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-09-06 Thread S'orlok Reaves

Ah! I use SciTE for Ruby. Fantastic program!
Hmm... James might know this one best: Are there any
editors that support plugins of the kind that link
words with the documentation.

So, e.g., if you open a script in this editor and
hover over suspend player, then it will show a small
caption describing the help for that specific segment.

Also, are there any which enable auto-complete if you
hit some keystroke? (Ctrl + Space)

These would be two features I'd really like in a
general-purpose text-editor plugin for the OHR. What
do other people think about them?

--Seth



--- James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 12:21:24PM -0500, Kizul
 Emeraldfire wrote:
 On 9/5/07, James Paige
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   generating plotdictionary.html from
 plotdict.xml is pretty easy, and
   keeping plotdictionary.html is a courtesy to
 those who are masochistic
   enough to keep using hssed :)
  
 You mean there're actually better alternatives
 now? o.O I've just been
 using HSSEd! XD I, for one, love the help
 feature on it. :)
 
 Nah, I just use a generic source code editor (SciTE)
 
 I think the best way to implement an HssEd
 replacement might be to write 
 a plug-in for some existing source code editor.
 
 ---
 James Paige
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Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. 
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. 
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Re: [Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-09-05 Thread Ralph Versteegen
On 9/5/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 06:33:50PM +1200, Ralph Versteegen wrote:
  James! You forgot to include the sample RPGs in the release candidate
  ful .zip and windows installer!

 That was intentional. We need to upload those to the wiki, and
 direct-link them from the relevant tutorials.

Well... ok :(

  Also, I think the minimal .zip should include ohrrpgce.new. It
  compresses to nothing, and is require both for upgrading and new
  games!

 Ouch! Thanks for noticing that one. I'll fix it for RC4

  Incidentally, when Game upgrades an RPG, does it require ohrrpgce.new
  for really old games?

 When upgrading games older than May 8 2000, the upgrade sub uses
 ohrrpgce.new to get the default vehicles. If it can't find the .new
 file, it will just leave out the default vehicles.

Oh wait, it won't be required anyway.


 ---
 James Paige

James! James! You forgot plotdictionary.html! I really hope you don't
try to justify using the wiki instead. It's just not convenient! The
html file has related commands documentated sequentially, normally
assuming that you don't need cross links to find relevant commands
documented one paragraph down the page.

TMC
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Re: [Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-09-05 Thread James Paige
On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 07:57:27PM +1200, Ralph Versteegen wrote:
 James! James! You forgot plotdictionary.html! I really hope you don't
 try to justify using the wiki instead. It's just not convenient! The
 html file has related commands documentated sequentially, normally
 assuming that you don't need cross links to find relevant commands
 documented one paragraph down the page.

I see the value in having the all-in-one file, but I don't see the 
advantage of actually including the file. How about if I ad a URL 
shortcut that points to 
http://hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/docs/plotdict.xml

---
James Paige
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Re: [Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-09-05 Thread James Paige
On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 08:15:48AM -0700, James Paige wrote:
 On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 07:57:27PM +1200, Ralph Versteegen wrote:
  James! James! You forgot plotdictionary.html! I really hope you don't
  try to justify using the wiki instead. It's just not convenient! The
  html file has related commands documentated sequentially, normally
  assuming that you don't need cross links to find relevant commands
  documented one paragraph down the page.
 
 I see the value in having the all-in-one file, but I don't see the 
 advantage of actually including the file. How about if I ad a URL 
 shortcut that points to 
 http://hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/docs/plotdict.xml

... actually, I just realized why I still need to include 
plotdictionary.html ... because a lot of people will be installing right 
over a previous installation, and if their old plotdict.html doesn't get 
overwritten with a new one, they will be wondering why they cant find 
the docs for the new commands (or they won't even know the new commands 
exist at all)

---
James Paige
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Re: [Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-09-05 Thread David Gowers
On 9/6/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 08:15:48AM -0700, James Paige wrote:
  On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 07:57:27PM +1200, Ralph Versteegen wrote:
   James! James! You forgot plotdictionary.html! I really hope you don't
   try to justify using the wiki instead. It's just not convenient! The
   html file has related commands documentated sequentially, normally
   assuming that you don't need cross links to find relevant commands
   documented one paragraph down the page.
 
  I see the value in having the all-in-one file, but I don't see the
  advantage of actually including the file. How about if I ad a URL
  shortcut that points to
  http://hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/docs/plotdict.xml

 ... actually, I just realized why I still need to include
 plotdictionary.html ... because a lot of people will be installing right
 over a previous installation, and if their old plotdict.html doesn't get
 overwritten with a new one, they will be wondering why they cant find
 the docs for the new commands (or they won't even know the new commands
 exist at all)

Then why don't you just make plotdict.html contain a single link to
http://hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/docs/plotdict.xml, plus some blurb
about new location?
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Re: [Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-09-05 Thread James Paige
On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 09:10:02AM +0930, David Gowers wrote:
 On 9/6/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 08:15:48AM -0700, James Paige wrote:
   On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 07:57:27PM +1200, Ralph Versteegen wrote:
James! James! You forgot plotdictionary.html! I really hope you don't
try to justify using the wiki instead. It's just not convenient! The
html file has related commands documentated sequentially, normally
assuming that you don't need cross links to find relevant commands
documented one paragraph down the page.
  
   I see the value in having the all-in-one file, but I don't see the
   advantage of actually including the file. How about if I ad a URL
   shortcut that points to
   http://hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/docs/plotdict.xml
 
  ... actually, I just realized why I still need to include
  plotdictionary.html ... because a lot of people will be installing right
  over a previous installation, and if their old plotdict.html doesn't get
  overwritten with a new one, they will be wondering why they cant find
  the docs for the new commands (or they won't even know the new commands
  exist at all)
 
 Then why don't you just make plotdict.html contain a single link to
 http://hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/docs/plotdict.xml, plus some blurb
 about new location?

generating plotdictionary.html from plotdict.xml is pretty easy, and 
keeping plotdictionary.html is a courtesy to those who are masochistic 
enough to keep using hssed :)

---
James Paige
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[Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-08-24 Thread James Paige
Howdy, all! Uberetzung is getting close enough that it is time to start 
thinking about packaging.

Previously, stable releases for windows were made of thee files

  ohrrpgce-win-installer.exe
  ohrrpgce.zip (AKA custom.zip)
  ohrrpgce_play.zip

the contents of the installer and the zip were about the same. 
ohrrpgce_play.zip was the minimal version with just game.exe and some 
text files.

Here is what I envision for Ubersetzung and future releases:

  ohrrpgce-win-installer.exe

This would be the biggest file. It would include game and custom and all 
support files, as well as the import subdirectory with some sample 
songs and sfx and fonts, and a copy of Vikings of Midgard (hopefully, 
if Fenrir is ready)

I would expect this file to be fairly big. Probably bigger than 5 mb, 
but less than 10 mb.

Then we would have:

  ohrrpgce.zip

The minimalist distribution. It would just have game and custom and the 
stuff you need to run them. included Readme files would direct you where 
to download the sample music and sounds, and where do download Vikings 
of Midgard (and other games). I am not sure whether madplay+oggenc 
should be separate or included.

This would probably be close to the same size it was for the 
Hasta-la-qb+ release, since the loss of game-qb and customqb will 
approximately make up for the new dll files.

Then:

  ohrrpgce_play.zip

Should probably go away. (or redirect to ohrrpgce.zip)

Beyond those, I can see pros and cons to having other packaging. Are 
people going to want a minimalist windows installer? Are people going to 
want a full zip file including Vikings and all the import media? Does 
the benefit of extra choices outweigh the confusion of which one do I 
donwload? for new users?

---
James Paige
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Re: [Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-08-24 Thread Adam Perry
On 8/24/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Howdy, all! Uberetzung is getting close enough that it is time to start
 thinking about packaging.

 Previously, stable releases for windows were made of thee files

Since there is more than one, the correct grammar is ye files. (No
one respects Old English anymore.)

   ohrrpgce-win-installer.exe
   ohrrpgce.zip (AKA custom.zip)
   ohrrpgce_play.zip

 the contents of the installer and the zip were about the same.
 ohrrpgce_play.zip was the minimal version with just game.exe and some
 text files.

 Here is what I envision for Ubersetzung and future releases:

   ohrrpgce-win-installer.exe

Am I the only one who prefers zips to installers?

 This would be the biggest file. It would include game and custom and all
 support files, as well as the import subdirectory with some sample
 songs and sfx and fonts, and a copy of Vikings of Midgard (hopefully,
 if Fenrir is ready)

Are you going to stop packaging BAMs in import? You should.

 I would expect this file to be fairly big. Probably bigger than 5 mb,
 but less than 10 mb.

 Then we would have:

   ohrrpgce.zip

 The minimalist distribution. It would just have game and custom and the
 stuff you need to run them. included Readme files would direct you where
 to download the sample music and sounds, and where do download Vikings
 of Midgard (and other games). I am not sure whether madplay+oggenc
 should be separate or included.

This pleases me.

 This would probably be close to the same size it was for the
 Hasta-la-qb+ release, since the loss of game-qb and customqb will
 approximately make up for the new dll files.

 Then:

   ohrrpgce_play.zip

 Should probably go away. (or redirect to ohrrpgce.zip)

 Beyond those, I can see pros and cons to having other packaging. Are
 people going to want a minimalist windows installer?

Doubtful. Minimalists don't want an installer.

 Are people going to
 want a full zip file including Vikings and all the import media? Does
 the benefit of extra choices outweigh the confusion of which one do I
 donwload? for new users?

Good point -- maybe the full file, installer and imports and all, can
be called OHRRPGCE Game Development Kit or something along those
lines to disambiguate. I still want my no-installer zip.
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Re: [Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-08-24 Thread James Paige
On Fri, Aug 24, 2007 at 12:27:18PM -0700, Adam Perry wrote:
 On 8/24/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Previously, stable releases for windows were made of thee files
 
 Since there is more than one, the correct grammar is ye files. (No
 one respects Old English anymore.)

Forsooth! With a certainty, thou must knowest that mine hands did slip 
upon this devil's board of prodden letters and whilst it was my most 
fervent desire to utter the longcrafting of the numeral 3, being; 
three, I failed and instead spake another word.

 Am I the only one who prefers zips to installers?

No.

  This would be the biggest file. It would include game and custom and all
  support files, as well as the import subdirectory with some sample
  songs and sfx and fonts, and a copy of Vikings of Midgard (hopefully,
  if Fenrir is ready)
 
 Are you going to stop packaging BAMs in import? You should.

I might keep one for old time's sake, but mainly, no. Their time has 
come.

Plus, I want to move the import data out of subversion and onto the 
wiki, and making BAMs uploadble there is too much of a pain.

---
James
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Re: [Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-08-24 Thread Kizul Emeraldfire
On 8/24/07, Adam Perry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 8/24/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Howdy, all! Uberetzung is getting close enough that it is time to start
  thinking about packaging.
 
  Previously, stable releases for windows were made of thee files

 Since there is more than one, the correct grammar is ye files. (No
 one respects Old English anymore.)

ohrrpgce-win-installer.exe
ohrrpgce.zip (AKA custom.zip)
ohrrpgce_play.zip
 
  the contents of the installer and the zip were about the same.
  ohrrpgce_play.zip was the minimal version with just game.exe and some
  text files.
 
  Here is what I envision for Ubersetzung and future releases:
 
ohrrpgce-win-installer.exe

 Am I the only one who prefers zips to installers?


Nope, I do as well. .

 This would be the biggest file. It would include game and custom and all
  support files, as well as the import subdirectory with some sample
  songs and sfx and fonts, and a copy of Vikings of Midgard (hopefully,
  if Fenrir is ready)

 Are you going to stop packaging BAMs in import? You should.

  I would expect this file to be fairly big. Probably bigger than 5 mb,
  but less than 10 mb.
 
  Then we would have:
 
ohrrpgce.zip
 
  The minimalist distribution. It would just have game and custom and the
  stuff you need to run them. included Readme files would direct you where
  to download the sample music and sounds, and where do download Vikings
  of Midgard (and other games). I am not sure whether madplay+oggenc
  should be separate or included.

 This pleases me.

  This would probably be close to the same size it was for the
  Hasta-la-qb+ release, since the loss of game-qb and customqb will
  approximately make up for the new dll files.
 
  Then:
 
ohrrpgce_play.zip
 
  Should probably go away. (or redirect to ohrrpgce.zip)
 
  Beyond those, I can see pros and cons to having other packaging. Are
  people going to want a minimalist windows installer?

 Doubtful. Minimalists don't want an installer.

  Are people going to
  want a full zip file including Vikings and all the import media? Does
  the benefit of extra choices outweigh the confusion of which one do I
  donwload? for new users?

 Good point -- maybe the full file, installer and imports and all, can
 be called OHRRPGCE Game Development Kit or something along those
 lines to disambiguate. I still want my no-installer zip.


Same here. I just like being able to extract everything to whatever
directory, et VOILĂ€! It's ready to be used. Unlike with installer things
where I have to go delete registry entries because I'm not gonna be
uninstalling the program, and extraneous shortcuts off of the Start Menu's
Programs section because I never use the bloody menu. XD
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Re: [Ohrrpgce] ubersetzung packaging ideas

2007-08-24 Thread Keith Gable
On 8/24/07, James Paige [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I am not sure whether madplay+oggenc
 should be separate or included.

Include madplay+oggenc always with every distribution. Most Windows
users will have absolutely no idea what's going on when you say you
need madplay and oggenc. They'll hate googling for it. Even if it is
the minimal install, it's still a support library. You'd include
ohrrpgce.???, right? :P

Based on your idea, I think there should be:

ohrrpgce-full-installer.exe (the .exe implies Windows)
ohrrpgce-full-win.zip
ohrrpgce-minimal.zip

For Linux, there's a dozen ways to do it. On Gentoo, OHRRPGCE is
seperate packages for game/custom (ohrrpgce-player-wip,
ohrrpgce-custom-wip). I don't know how you package it on
Debian/Ubuntu.

Speaking of which, I still have bunches more work to do on the packaging...

-- 
Keith Gable
Lead Programmer / Project Leader
The Ignition Project http://www.ignition-project.com/

[Ask me how you can get a free Gmail account - Now with Google Chat!]
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