Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Hi Dusan, Fabien wrote that all revenue for OpenERP is from 30% of partners , but what is more important is that IMHO 99 % of revenue comes from just few countries. Like most companies, we follow the pareto principle in our revenues. But, as an opposite to most services companies, the long tail is quite important for OpenERP. Our revenues are largely spread over a large number of countries. For EMEA, our top 5 countries does only 60% of our revenues. Since the beginning of OpenERP, we follow a global strategy; every country / every partner is important for us to build a global product and service offer. -- We try to cover a maximum of countries in everything we do (CTP in 26 countries, Partners in 110 countries, Event Tour for Q1 2014 in 30 countries, Certification center in 190 countries, ...). I put 4 people full time on the OpenERP project for last 2 years . We done 90% of translation ,contributed official localization(l10_si), developed about +50 modules (https://launchpad.net/openerpsl) which about 50% are for localisation and implemented first projects ( with huge effort (localisation problems) and the price that didn’t cover our expenses). It's clearly highly valuable for OpenERP. It's great to see such contributions and people trusting in the project. Building such a global product and service offer is a huge effort for everyone. We definitely need partners to develop new countries or improve existing ones. And now we are 'bad' partner , because we don't sell SAS or Enterprise. There is nothing to sell here for OpenERP or any Partner without good and well maintained and supported localisation. Sorry if I was not clear in my preceding email. We do have very good partners (mostly silver and gold ones) but we never think about bad partners. Every partner is important for us. We always support every partner, we always act globally, OpenERP has two hats: 1/ building a great open source product 2/ building a great business For 1/, everything related to the product or the community (bugs, translations, launchpad collaboration, ...), we don't even do the difference between community, partners or what ever. Every one is equal in their contributions. Our developers don't care about the status of someone when they merge branches. For 2/, we rate partners according their performance in developing business (ready, silver, gold). Mostly because customer want this (big projects search for highly experienced partners) and because it allows us to adapt the investment we do per partner. But, for us, a ready partner is NOT a bad partner. A ready partner is a future silver or gold ones. So, we do what we can to help them grow. In our point of view, being a great contributor and being a great partner is two very different things. You can be a great contributor but not a partner. (you develop modules, but don't develop the business) Or, you can be a great partner without being a contributor (you develop a great service offer but don't contribute a lot) Of course, the best is when you are both. (because contribution means short-term improvements and business means long-term sustainability) We even have two different teams to interact with community or partners: - Our RD team work with contributors (and they don't care about who is partner or not) - Our sales/account managers/services team work with partners, and they don't care about who is a contributor or not. I won't go in details with problems we are dealing with entering new market (i mostly agree with what Raphaël Valyi and António Sequeira wrote in this thread ) , but I strongly believe that OpenERP need some local partner in every country (localization , bug fixes for localization , local support ) and I don't think they can do that by themselves for all countries. I fully agree too. (and we don't want to do this by ourself, it's not the strategy of OpenERP). We hope OpenERP s.a. will realize that they need much more flexible partnership and pricing model if they want to enter to majority of countries where OpenERP has just a lot of downloads and maybe some optimistic ready partners. I think our partnership is super flexible: open to everyone, not expensive, no constraints at all (no revenue, communication or others constraints, ...), adapts to partners growth and needs (ready, silver, gold) I think our pricing is super accessible. Here is a comparison per month and per user: - OpenERP: 35€ (includes migrations) - Openbravo: 39€ (no migration included, no unlimited bug fixes) - Netsuite: $100/user - Compiere: $65 - $115 - XTuple : $90 - $215 - Sage :$90 - $200 - Ms. AX: $180 Not only, we have the best product, but it's also the cheapest! About the flexibility of the price (adapt to every country), it's different as we only have 4 prices for 4 different regions. But most of the publishers have this, otherwise it's too complex and not manageable. For the pricing, it's super complex to
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Hi, I'm CEO of Mentis d.o.o , which is OpenERP partner for two years now. We are the only partner in Slovenia and according to Fabien definition , we are one of those 'bad' partners. Fabien wrote that all revenue for OpenERP is from 30% of partners , but what is more important is that IMHO 99 % of revenue comes from just few countries. Here is number of partners in Europe countries: France51 Belgium43 Spain18 Germany16 Switzerland12 Italy10 Romania 6 Portugal 5 Austria 4 Finland 4 Croatia 3 Luxemburg 3 Norway 3 Poland 3 Greece 2 Hungary 2 Ireland 2 Albania 1 Bosnia-H. 1 Cyprus 1 Denmark 1 Estonia 1 Iceland 1 Lithuania 1 Monaco 1 Russian Fed. 1 Slovenia 1 Sweden 1 Turkey 1 All others (21) countries 0 ! I believe that almost all 'good' partners are coming from first few countries. Entering in new market (country) with such a complex product , as every serious ERP is, is a big project. Translation , localisation , marketing , some first implementation for references ; it takes a lot of work and time. And only if somebody is prepare to do that in a new country , market is ready for partners or OpenERP to sell Enterprise contracts or SAS. I put 4 people full time on the OpenERP project for last 2 years . We done 90% of translation ,contributed official localization(l10_si), developed about +50 modules (https://launchpad.net/openerpsl) which about 50% are for localisation and implemented first projects ( with huge effort (localisation problems) and the price that didn’t cover our expenses). And now we are 'bad' partner , because we don't sell SAS or Enterprise. There is nothing to sell here for OpenERP or any Partner without good and well maintained and supported localisation. I won't go in details with problems we are dealing with entering new market (i mostly agree with what Raphaël Valyi and António Sequeira wrote in this thread ) , but I strongly believe that OpenERP need some local partner in every country (localization , bug fixes for localization , local support ) and I don't think they can do that by themselves for all countries. As a Partner we didn’t get lot off help from OpenERP in our efforts (our account manager at OpenERP even starts sending Leeds from Slovenia to Austrian partner which is real joke!) , but we we would like to stay OpenERP partner , because we believe than OpenERP is a great platform and product with bright future and we respect what OpenERP s.a. is giving to the community. We hope OpenERP s.a. will realize that they need much more flexible partnership and pricing model if they want to enter to majority of countries where OpenERP has just a lot of downloads and maybe some optimistic ready partners. I hope we will persisted and succeeded in make OpenERP a successful product in Slovenian market and than we or some body else can sell contracts or SAS. Until than: Best regards from 'bad guys ' ! Dusan Laznik Mentis d.o.o ) On 02/25/2014 07:43 PM, Fabien Pinckaers wrote: OpenERP Enterprise Eric and All, Thanks for providing such a feedback. I read all mails and I will try to answer everyone's question here. *Why is OpenERP Enterprise Key for OpenERP?* As an introduction, OpenERP Enterprise is key for OpenERP as it finances all our RD and marketing investment. The OpenERP Enterprise service offer is what allowed to release v6, v6.1, v7, v8, and future ones. Building an exceptionnal product requires to invest a lot in RD, which is very different than building new features on top of customer projects. If we would not have invested in RD, OpenERP would still be like this: http://www.cyclaero.com/OpenERP/OpenERP5-screenshot.png In others words, OpenERP would be dead as it could not compete with existing players. And most partners would have left OpenERP too as OpenERP services companies were not profitable on versions 6 or earlier. OpenERP Enterprise is key for customers too. In the past, with SAP or others, customers used to buy one version of a product and stay with it for 7 years. They never upgrade and, after 7 years, they are so deprecated that they usually completly migrate to another software. I want to build a service where customer evolve with the software, where they can benefit from new features frequently and where partners grow by selling to existing users, not only to new ones. I want to build long term relationship with our users where migrations are not a technical pain, but where an upgrade to a future version is a way for customers to benefit from lots of new features. For new community members, you can learn our business model in this 3 years old post: http://v6.openerp.com/node/465 *Why is it super hard to have
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Hello Marcello, On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 11:56 AM, Marcelo Bello marcelo.be...@gmail.comwrote: Raphael, I sent that email to add a perspective of one end-user, I think this kind of discussion is improved if some end-users can jump in and tell how they see the situation. Sure. Now end users better work with specialized integrators to get anything working and this is mostly the public not afraid to be here. I certainly do not have the whole picture, I have never touched a single line of code in OERP and I do not know all the news. I spoke what is my perception and you know, marketers like to say that perception is reality. I am not pretending I am a big client or that I have potential to become one. Just really described the picture I formed in my mind (wrong or not) about OERP and its ecosystem, maybe that can be enlightening to someone. And I did think that by initially giving the contract to an OpenERP partner (active at the time) I was indeed contributing back to the community, I think you can relate to why someone would reason in that way, can't you? Raphael, you always assume people do not hire Akretion in Brazil because they want the cheapest service available. You say a lot about how companies in Brazil do not have criteria, decision makers do not value expertise, etc... Have you ever stopped to think that maybe they actually can make sound decisions but it is very difficult to hire someone that writes (and maybe behaves?) like you do? I know you may be offended by this I just hope you will be able to hear it and accept it as a feedback, because the way you express yourself on this forum, on the forum of the Brazilian localization (and even on that long discussion about the contact model screw-up) really makes a poor image of you, at least to my eyes. I am sure you have all the hard skills, but the soft skills are just as important when you want to make a sale and to manage a project. (I know you are good and you have a lot to contribute with your opinions, you could just choose a softer language and show more respect to other people) I have to say is that you believed you had the choice. And the time has shown you that it wasn't the case. Prostitution of the market isn't just about the price. Here companies have that obligation to quickly respond their email to send them a quote (it's lot of work on our side), put a cravat and please them with kind words to please the guys with the money kind enough to talk to them. That would be perfectly reasonable if more integrators would offer the service vs the demand for it. That would be the case if making OpenERP was as easy as the marketing is telling you. But you know what demand is 10x higher than the valid offer at the bare minimum. If we made positive marketing like OpenERP SA does, it would be 100x the off or evener more with nearly no change in the offer, at least not in the same proportion today, that mean it would be an irresponsible attitude because they would be 100x more stories like your, that has the potential to even burn the product image totally. We already made a tremendous investment on our side to make this market exist. People have to accept our conditions without making us loose time with commercial ceremonies at the moment because we have more much more valuable things to do that spend time convincing them to to pay the value it costs. In fact we have to filter the projects that will work and focus on them. That is not you the customer choosing, that is us choosing the customer. And if they don't spot the situation by themselves, chances are they aren't good enough for the project to even succeed. And failures is what we don't need. You believed you could do different you were wrong and I cannot do anything about it. For the record, the proposal I got from Proge back in February 2013 was about 50% higher than what Akretion wanted to charge, so I actually chose the more expensive option. Your behavior on the mailing lists was a big factor in deciding in favor of Proge, a decision I regret for sure. So you lost because of your market analysis based on superficial criteria. Meanwhile do you believe we have lost anything? We didn't because we took the next guy on the list and for us be it Marcello or another guy it was the same ad we were working at full capacity on projects that would be success. So who is wrong? Bad market analysis my friend. These guys could afford have a nice image, because everything penny they don't invest on the RD, they put it on the marketing. Have them been any successful with that policy? Nope because RD was in fact much more important pas the superficial image they could keep for a few months. The second time I went shopping, Akretion did not even reply to my email. There we are. So in fact, may be one day you will understand that: we and a few folks here DO HAVE A STRATEGY. that means that the local optimum may be isn't what we are
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Since this is being discussed in the community list I feel encouraged to participate as an end-user. Some context about me: In February 2013 I entered into a contract with an OpenERP partner in Brazil called Proge to implement OpenERP for my company. Long story short, Proge took most of the money and never delivered a working system, we are now going to court to try to get our money back. Very very disturbing. I insisted on OpenERP and now have hired a different company (non-partner) to setup OpenERP for me (Akretion was too busy to help us). I have OpenERP in production for about 4 weeks now. I have chosen not to get an enterprise contract for now. What I have learned about the OpenERP ecosystem: 1. Anyone can buy the Partner status, a lot of those partners have no real capability to deliver a good job, so it is in no way a quality seal; 2. OpenERP SA is very slow to fix / merge bugs, there are thousands of open bugs in the queue; (Isn't part of the Enterprise Contract the promise that bugs will be fixed quickly? With such a huge list of open bugs how can I believe in that claim?) 3. With so many bugs yet to be fixed, one is better of relying on the OCB or RS-OCB repositories rather than the official one; 4. The Enterprise Contract is good for migration work from version to version BUT it won't cover the localization code (which in Brazil is huge); 5. OpenERP takes a huge amount of effort to setup and actually make work, the documentation is very high-level to be useful, it does require quite a bit of customization so in the end the company I hired is the one I depend on and the ones I must trust (not OpenERP SA); 6. The most important functionality (for me at least) landing on OpenERP are now developed by partners and not OpenERP SA: new Magento connector and the new WMS. OpenERP SA is engaged in the development of some features that in my view are disconnected from the reality and they should really become more pragmatic; I do think OpenERP SA should be getting some cash out of me, the ERP is nice and I believe a good job must be compensated. This is my recommendation on how to improve the situation for OpenERP SA, from the point of view of an end-user: 1. Make public the information about how many active Enterprise Contracts each partner has. This will make your partners want to sell those contracts to look good in their markets. People like me that need a new ERP system really need this type of information to make sound purchase decisions. Look what happened to me when I chose a bad OpenERP partner. Hence, the silver/gold/platinum etc... should depend ONLY on that number (anyone could still become a partner by paying, but to be silver/gold/whatever one would need to have experience and a nice number of active contracts); 2. Start closing those bugs PLEASE! What confidence do I have in OpenERP SA if you let so many bugs stay open for so long despite all partners complaining about it so much (to the point a OCB repository now exists); 3. Take better care of your reputation: - The contact / partner_id thing was a screw up, why fight so hard with your partners, apparently with no technical merit? (and why not say sorry, when sorry is due?) - Why aren't you including the partners in these decisions when they are so important to you? - Why are you okay with so many open bugs? Don't you understand that each bug I find on my setup of OpenERP, my confidence in the system is significantly diminished? And don't you understand that the #1 attribute of an ERP is reliability? - Why do you let the OCB repository be ahead of the official one? Shouldn't you be the reference as far a OpenERP code repository goes? - Why are you developing a CMS system instead of fixing those bugs? Don't you understand that you look fool trying to sell features like that, at least at this stage? Are you really going to recommend your clients to expose their ERP to the web so they can use the CMS? Will that be a responsible recommendation given the security implications and the huge attack surface an ERP system has (and the nice data a hacker can get as a compensation)? 4. Start making OpenERP feel like a mature piece of software: - Take unit tests seriously; - Take bug fixing seriously; - Do stable releases only when the code is stable; - Only change your APIs when absolutely necessary (so that modules can become mature pieces of software); - Don't let broken things stay broken (e.g. App/Module store, when a module can interfere with each other because of on_change mess other issues); 5. Stop making the Enterprise Contract about migrations. It gives you the wrong incentives. As a client I do not want to have big migrations every 12-18 months. I want to do it every 36-48 months if at all. 6. Take full control of your software and its important pieces (selected modules and the localizations). The official repository should be the reference, not the OCB one. You should know what happens with each localization, how
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
2014-02-28 13:20 GMT-06:00 Yury Tello yte...@cubicerp.com: Hi Fabien, sorry for late reply, i was out of my office on last days, but i hope this reply helps to you and OpenERP SA to make better business relations with partners, customers and community. First, we (Cubic ERP S.A.C.) only sell hours, we don't sell software because it is free, then we sell hours of consulting (funcional, technical and training) to our customers. Good and bad, the software is OpenSource and NOT free as free beer even if you can got it with a download. Then to start this business we first invest on education, like a MBA Out of topic, everybody make this kind of study for themselves, it works not only for OpenERP and it is a comment out of topic. and others, to us consultants. Then we invest paying to OpenERP SA the partnership and training (about USD$6000) and to initiate the CTP contract prepay about USD$6500 more, finally, we pay 2 years more of partnership and bought one OEE. About the revenues for sell OEE i get 10%, and for sell courses i get about 50% minus the traveling expenses. I not include on this the hours sold because to deliver this service i not need the OpenERP SA support, I don't understand the traveling expenses it is a cost that you can not tranfer to your customer either? and the investment to make or hire a consultant is outside of scope of OpenERP SA, noted please, we don't consume the 2 support hours offered on the partnership contract because we save this for a critical situations. In this point I I think different from you. If the software doesn't exists, AND the marketing doesn't exist, AND the Position of product doesn't exist AND The evolution of the product is not done AND The source code is not available blah blah blah... you will sale hours over what¿?. What I am trying to say: Why YOU can decide take off this numbers from your analysis and OpenERP have not the right to do the same with you? With this way of thinking is how you push a Succesfull OpenSource company to Close the code... honestly this kind of business structure is not good for the healthy of the market. I know we can argument about price, and value added and so on... but never ever close our minds to the fact that one guy in a farm in belgium Open the Code of a product, finance it and put freely available for you, it means you can NOT take it off from the equation... In other words. It is a fact, You are one of the most expensives consultant in latinoamerica in one of the shipper countries in the zone, and you are telling me it is not Thanks to the Position that has been given to you by OpenERP in the zone? WoW really IMHO the worst business analysis I saw ever. Here is where comes the closed source world and eat us, because for them it is simple is mandatory no matter if it is fair or not. If I sell 1 hour of consultancy over OpenERP in any place around the world, I debt to OpenERP at least a Thanks don't you think? Let give my own numbers in terms of percentage, to show you how do I think it should be done. I sold 90% of my services over OpenSource. 10% over closed source tools. From the 90% of opensource, i will talk here. I sell 80% over OpenERP services, consultancy, hours, enterprises, and so on. 20% of servers and architecture. From this 80% today due to the big impact of prices, more or less 30% goes to openerp, 40% percent goes to me and our colleges salaries, 30% Administrative and RD, events and community. If you compare with any other business it is almost the same, even higher in some cases. In the 10% of servers, let's say I called Canonical to be partner (to give some money back), and they said the where not interested on Latin american partners (they have the model proposed of closed partnership cartel which in my humble opinion is wrong too), then I just buy little services from them, the same with enterprise db, only people like IBM can be partner (which I think is bullshit). Sorry for my hard words to you men, but honestly you kind of business analysis is making A LOT of damage in the market, sorry again, because: - You are NOT GROWING UP. - Your customers soon or later will be unhappy either. - Your are not ensuring long term quality model. - You are living for today prying for tomorrow. - And all this is BAD marketing not good ones. And IT is NOT a healthy business relation with end users. Regards. About OEE earnings this is not good because in 3 years we only sold a OEE of 5 users. About the courses: - 1st year we sold all prepaid trainings (good) - 2nd year we sold training over the target of CTP Contract (very good) - 3th year OpenERP SA started sold the online trainings, then we sold few training and not achieve the target (very bad) Let me answer something that may be nobody can say. - 1st year your objective was not achieved, it was a try and you got an opportunity. - 2nd year you sold trainig When you think
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 1:43 AM, Raphael Valyi rva...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Marcello, [...] 7. Find incentives for partners to share more with each other. There we are! This is a bit the god father Nhomar was talking about in a previous mail. I can already hear the sound track in my mind, not sure that will end all right ;-) Sorry, I couldn't resist to add some off topic. Just had a quick gtalk with Nhomar after this. And god father Nhomar (anybody doubt he belongs to one of these latin cartels?) was in fact suggesting I would use an other great movie reference of the genre the next time OpenERP screw the data model of the base module again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_z4IuxAqpEfeature=youtu.bet=24s Take care! -- Raphaël Valyi Founder and consultant http://twitter.com/rvalyi http://twitter.com/#!/rvalyi +55 21 2516 2954 www.akretion.com ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Hello, i have some questions about the contract itself. I think some essential informations are unclear. A simplified but still transparent contract document would be a good move in the right direction, but still essential things are missing in the contract document, or confusing. - Where to enter real start / end date of contract ? - What is the intention of the field date on Contract registration ? - Is date field intended to be the same as effective date ? - What to do, if customer wants to start / renew the OE contract on 01.06.2014 if in my case the date of signature is 03.03.2014 (=today)? - Is it legal to enter in date field something different than the date of signature (f.e. some date in the future) ? - Which of both dates is relevant field for the time frame (90 days) to terminate contract ? - What is the expiry date as mentioned in term of the contract paragraphe ? - Who finally have to sign the contract (partner, customer, OpenERP SA) ? - not enough space, help text which makes it unclear which signatures we have to collect in this signature box. - Where to get the date of termination (or start / end date ) ? Questions about 2. pricing: - Where to enter the amount of users covered in this contract ? - Where to find the Annex A (actually not existing in contract document) ? - What is the difference between annual price and total price (may you provide example) ? - Why are the price fields included in contract ? - Is the following assumption correct: annual price = price for 10 users, total price = price for packs of 10 users ? Ex. annual price: 4200 €, total price = 4.200 €. - Why is the price included in contract (first time in this Contract V2) - - Isn't it part of our quotation towards the customers (partner - customer) and our partner contract agreement (openerp - partner) - Why we need any price information in this contract ? Some other hints / questions: - wouldn't it be good to have localised contract versions (german). - in our case this should lower the entry barrier for new customers. - exhibit a is not existing, but it is related in contracts text (to correct). This review should help to improve the contract by some essential informations or to explain better by providing some examples. Best regards Thorsten Vocks openBIG.org Dipl. Kaufmann (FH) Porscheweg 4-6 49661 Cloppenburg Phone: +49 4471 8409000 Fax: +49 4471 84090009 Mail: thorsten.vo...@openbig.org Web: http://www.openbig.org 2014-03-01 17:23 GMT+01:00 Raphael Valyi rva...@gmail.com: On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:23 PM, Yury Tello yte...@cubicerp.com wrote: Hi Jeff, Usually in LATAM there are between 2 and 3 trainees in the official trainings, and these 30% cover International traveling. Best Regards Hello Yury, we had kind of the same issues with the CTP training in Brazil (relatively low attendance rates and travel expenses on both sides). So, just like Vauxoo we took the decision to also do the training online to avoid physical costs and be able to delay a training to an other date more easily. Now, it's different in our case at Akretion because there isn't an official online training overlapping ours. At some point this is normal that online trainings don't try to compete one with another. Now, what is probably not correct is having let you make the investments you described with a different training agenda in mind without associating you to the plan. Also, now with the mandatory certification to become a partner (probably better than partnering with anybody once the certification is properly calibrated), trainees would complain if the CTP training wouldn't prepare them efficiently to the certification. As some 30% of the attendees used to be partners, we stopped including 12 hours of localization and we now do the full training only with the official content as requested by OpenERP SA. Now again, I'm not sure that certification schedule was all as smart as it was initially pimped out again. Because until last year we used to train around 80 people a year. But since the certification nobody seems interested in a 5 days training not including the localization (and no we wouldn't lie to the trainees about the program)... You would say: add an other training with the localization. Indeed, we will do that, but again this is an investment on our side and we will probably wait for v8 to make it real because we cannot afford investing for a low return of course. But mostly, given the cheap catchy 360° marketing for dummies I was talking about in my other mail, a bad collateral effect is that while people would invest may be a month of training to work with SAP or other generic ERP's, they would generally not invest say even 8 days of training to work with OpenERP. While honestly, be it 10 days of official training or 6 months full time alone, this is a
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
100% on target Regards Antonio Sequeira div Mensagem original /divdivDe : Daniel Reis dgr...@sapo.pt /divdivData:01/03/2014 22:49 (GMT+00:00) /divdivPara: openerp-community@lists.launchpa openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net /divdivAssunto: Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value... /divdiv /divLet me start saying that I'm a huge OpenERP fan. I though twice before participating, but I feel some obligation in sharing my findings on this issue. OpenERP is doing a great work on the product, and all product serious users should giving their share for this. But, unfortunately, right now I can't advise anyone I know to buy Enterprise contract. I honestly hope that this could change soon. I can explain why, and I'll also add some comparisons with Microsoft's NAV strategy (in fact, OpenERP is a closer competitor to NAV than it is to AX or SAP). 1) The OEE SaaS option is unusable: It does not support localizations, it doesn't allow for serious customizations. So, it doesn't let me comply with my local legal requirements. 2) OEE service does not support localizations. This is a real show stopper. I don't mind localizations to be built by third-parties (as they are), but I expect the product vendor to validate these and give some level of support or guarantee. Every other ERP vendor I know does that. Localization features are mission critical, and OEE is void of value in that space. It doesn't even cover version migrations. If I have to pay a partner for this support, I'd might be better off getting all product support from him. Microsoft NAV and AX themselves often have localizations provided and maintained by partners. But Microsoft certifies these localizations, and includes them in the produc's maintenance fee. And Microsoft doesn't do direct sales: it's always sold through an integrator. How the maintenance fee gets divided between core and localizations evolution is abstracted for the final customer. 3) OEE is expensive At least for the business case I studied, so I have numbers to back up this claim. From the 6th year on, OEE total cost gets more expensive than buying Microsoft NAV licenses. And Microsoft supports localization, which OpenERP doesn't. On a SaaS cloud hosted, the assessment conclusions could be different, but as per #1, that is not an option. And note that NAV targets the middle market. For the SME market the pricing issue gets even trickier. I mean to be constructive, so I do have some suggestions for improvement: a) Have a community modules certification programme Let partners build localizations, but have them reviewed and certified. This will make it viabale for OpenERP SA to also provide version migrations as part of OEE. Also should provide some guarantee on basic maintenance (bugfixing) in case the authors go out of business. This will boost it's value for Customers. I know that Microsoft does this and uses a third-party entity to do the certification process, and it's similar to what App Stores do. b) Price differentiation by geographic region. It doesn't make sense to have the same prices for South America and North America. It also doesn't make sense to have the same prices for Portugal and for Germany. I can tell you what Microsoft is doing: they also have a fixed list price (at least for Europe). But they use different discount policies to adapt to each market's needs: I have seen quotes starting with 30% discount on list price, but in stronger economies such as Germany you're lucky if you can close the deal with a 5% or 10% discount. c) Accomodate different customers types in the pricing policy The new business apps user category is different from the standard ERP users. They have very different perceptions of the product's value, but can grow in modules used and eventually become full ERP users. These users expect a more App-oriented pricing model, at least until they reach a usage level that makes them prefer the ERP pricing. I believe that business apps and quickstart over SaaS concepts are powerful and can be strategic for OpenERP's growth. But OpenERP is missing a few things for that to take off: certified modules and localizations usable on SaaS; support for dev / productions environments on SaaS, with tooling for packaging changes and deploying between them; improve the GUI customization tools (view editors are partly broken; some field changes are impossible). The more I think on it, the more I believe that module certification can have a multiplier effect on several revenue stream for OpenERP. I hope this gets to be helpful in some way. Best to all /DR___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Hi Jeff, Usually in LATAM there are between 2 and 3 trainees in the official trainings, and these 30% cover International traveling. Best Regards 2014-03-01 2:49 GMT-05:00 jeff.wang j...@osbzr.com: Tello, Interesting numbers, thank you for sharing. But, 30% traveling expenses , why it cost so much ? -- Jeff Wang | j...@osbzr.com | 18016291663 |02158980787 @OpenERP_Jeff As simple as possible, As complex asneeded http://www.osbzr.com Maintainer of Open ERP china community http://www.openerp-china.org -- Original -- *From: * Yury Tello;yte...@cubicerp.com; *Date: * Sat, Mar 1, 2014 03:20 AM *To: * Fabien Pinckaersf...@openerp.com; openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net; *Subject: * Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value... Hi Fabien, sorry for late reply, i was out of my office onlast days, but i hope this reply helps to you and OpenERP SA tomake better business relations with partners, customers andcommunity. First, we (Cubic ERP S.A.C.) only sell hours, we don'tsell software because it is free, then we sell hours of consulting(funcional, technical and training) to our customers. Then to start this business we first invest on education, likea MBA and others, to us consultants. Then we invest paying toOpenERP SA the partnership and training (about USD$6000) and toinitiate the CTP contract prepay about USD$6500 more, finally, wepay 2 years more of partnership and bought one OEE. About the revenues for sell OEE i get 10%, and for sellcourses i get about 50% minus the traveling expenses. I not includeon this the hours sold because to deliver this service i not needthe OpenERP SA support, and the investment to make or hire aconsultant is outside of scope of OpenERP SA, noted please, wedon't consume the 2 support hours offered on the partnershipcontract because we save this for a critical situations. About OEE earnings this is not good because in 3 years we onlysold a OEE of 5 users. About the courses: - 1st year we sold all prepaid trainings (good) - 2nd year we sold training over the target of CTP Contract(very good) - 3th year OpenERP SA started sold the online trainings, thenwe sold few training and not achieve the target (very bad) Summary: - I invest on partnership an courses: about USD$12000 paid toOpenERP SA - I got 10% for sold OEE (OpenERP SA earn 90%) - I got about 20% for sold trainings (OpenERP SA earn only50%, 30% traveling expenses) Make your maths... Best Regards 2014-02-24 4:43 GMT-05:00 Fabien Pinckaersf...@openerp.com: Dear Erick, from my point of view, OpenERP SAneed change the way of make business, to let to their partners earn money too. Thisis very difficult because the head of OpenERP SA prove to beautocratic. An example of this show on http://v6.openerp.com/node/1311 slide 9 , that says: about the OEE partner prices, Any extra user,adobe the purchased contract, will be charged full price without discount, Theonly possibility to upgrade your contract is at renewaldate. Hello Yuri, I would be very interested to know: - How much total revenue do you do on OpenERP ? - How much revenue do you do for OpenERP SA ? If you don't want to disclose your numbers, may be just a ratiobetween your revenue for OpenERP SA / Total Revenue youdo on OpenERP. This would help me to understand if the revenue sharing is fair ornot. Thanks, Then the first step is change of mind from one-to-win toall-to-win. Best Regards 2014-02-22 0:08 GMT-05:00 Eric Caudal eric.cau...@elico-corp.com mailto:eric.cau...@elico-corp.com: Hi OpenERP Partners, There has been some questioning about the OpenERPEnterprise Contract after some of Fabien's email and there is areal debate/questioning about the value that this contract bringsto the final customer. Current value is difficult to sell and lies basically (atleast in my current sales experience) on the migration and somehow onthe bug fixing. Other advantages are more difficult to handle: - Private license has been a reason for me but I think this isvery specific to some customers. - There are those 2 hours support but this is few and not proportional to the number of users ... - The other reasons (automatic update and security alerts)seems to me accessories and not decision-makers So now the question would be what would bring additional valueto the contract that would really interest the end customer? I am thinking about the following advantages that could beadded to the current package (for same price): - one certification voucher - one access to a dashboard to check one or several OpenERPinstance health (with statistics and alert if down) - specific Android application, only available if a validcontract is up (could be business oriented or support oriented) What about you
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:23 PM, Yury Tello yte...@cubicerp.com wrote: Hi Jeff, Usually in LATAM there are between 2 and 3 trainees in the official trainings, and these 30% cover International traveling. Best Regards Hello Yury, we had kind of the same issues with the CTP training in Brazil (relatively low attendance rates and travel expenses on both sides). So, just like Vauxoo we took the decision to also do the training online to avoid physical costs and be able to delay a training to an other date more easily. Now, it's different in our case at Akretion because there isn't an official online training overlapping ours. At some point this is normal that online trainings don't try to compete one with another. Now, what is probably not correct is having let you make the investments you described with a different training agenda in mind without associating you to the plan. Also, now with the mandatory certification to become a partner (probably better than partnering with anybody once the certification is properly calibrated), trainees would complain if the CTP training wouldn't prepare them efficiently to the certification. As some 30% of the attendees used to be partners, we stopped including 12 hours of localization and we now do the full training only with the official content as requested by OpenERP SA. Now again, I'm not sure that certification schedule was all as smart as it was initially pimped out again. Because until last year we used to train around 80 people a year. But since the certification nobody seems interested in a 5 days training not including the localization (and no we wouldn't lie to the trainees about the program)... You would say: add an other training with the localization. Indeed, we will do that, but again this is an investment on our side and we will probably wait for v8 to make it real because we cannot afford investing for a low return of course. But mostly, given the cheap catchy 360° marketing for dummies I was talking about in my other mail, a bad collateral effect is that while people would invest may be a month of training to work with SAP or other generic ERP's, they would generally not invest say even 8 days of training to work with OpenERP. While honestly, be it 10 days of official training or 6 months full time alone, this is a bit required if you claim to do anything professional at all with OpenERP. From what I have discussed with the other CTP's they have a bit the same issue. IMHO a much better agenda would have been to have the training in country X prepare exclusively to the certification only once the certification would have been valued by the market in country X (in one year at best, probably even later in last OpenERP frontiers such as Brazil) Otherwise people just don't see the value and would still prefer to quickly learn how to use OpenERP for their use case in their country. Unless the real goal of the certification was different may be. And let's face it, like with any other ERP, the only way to have OpenERP with real success stories all around the world is indeed certainly to have quality extensive training and have expert local partners delivering it and the pioneers who were agile enough to make their way in the hard early days of OpenERP are probably more suited than anybody else for that. A month of official available program wouldn't be even be too few for people ready to invest in training instead of spending time. But that requires a consistent marketing that value ERP expertise so that the big players start investing into OpenERP, unlike the cheap catchy marketing that is being made lately. So I commented on that mail because I think what is happening with the CTP program is a good illustration of the limits of the cheap catchy 360° marketing we were just talking about in the other thread after Fabien asked our feedback. Regards and good luck for you Yury. -- Raphaël Valyi Founder and consultant http://twitter.com/rvalyi http://twitter.com/#!/rvalyi +55 21 2516 2954 www.akretion.com ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Hello Daniel, Good thought. +1 On 2 Mar 2014 04:19, Daniel Reis dgr...@sapo.pt wrote: Let me start saying that I'm a huge OpenERP fan. I though twice before participating, but I feel some obligation in sharing my findings on this issue. OpenERP is doing a great work on the product, and all product serious users should giving their share for this. But, unfortunately, right now I can't advise anyone I know to buy Enterprise contract. I honestly hope that this could change soon. I can explain why, and I'll also add some comparisons with Microsoft's NAV strategy (in fact, OpenERP is a closer competitor to NAV than it is to AX or SAP). *1) The OEE SaaS option is unusable:* It does not support localizations, it doesn't allow for serious customizations. So, it doesn't let me comply with my local legal requirements. *2) OEE service does not support localizations.* This is a real show stopper. I don't mind localizations to be built by third-parties (as they are), but I expect the product vendor to validate these and give some level of support or guarantee. Every other ERP vendor I know does that. Localization features are mission critical, and OEE is void of value in that space. It doesn't even cover version migrations. If I have to pay a partner for this support, I'd might be better off getting all product support from him. Microsoft NAV and AX themselves often have localizations provided and maintained by partners. But Microsoft certifies these localizations, and includes them in the produc's maintenance fee. And Microsoft doesn't do direct sales: it's always sold through an integrator. How the maintenance fee gets divided between core and localizations evolution is abstracted for the final customer. *3) OEE is expensive* At least for the business case I studied, so I have numbers to back up this claim. From the 6th year on, OEE total cost gets more expensive than buying Microsoft NAV licenses. And Microsoft supports localization, which OpenERP doesn't. On a SaaS cloud hosted, the assessment conclusions could be different, but as per #1, that is not an option. And note that NAV targets the middle market. For the SME market the pricing issue gets even trickier. I mean to be constructive, so I do have some suggestions for improvement: *a) Have a community modules certification programme* Let partners build localizations, but have them reviewed and certified. This will make it viabale for OpenERP SA to also provide version migrations as part of OEE. Also should provide some guarantee on basic maintenance (bugfixing) in case the authors go out of business. This will boost it's value for Customers. I know that Microsoft does this and uses a third-party entity to do the certification process, and it's similar to what App Stores do. *b) Price differentiation by geographic region.* It doesn't make sense to have the same prices for South America and North America. It also doesn't make sense to have the same prices for Portugal and for Germany. I can tell you what Microsoft is doing: they also have a fixed list price (at least for Europe). But they use different discount policies to adapt to each market's needs: I have seen quotes starting with 30% discount on list price, but in stronger economies such as Germany you're lucky if you can close the deal with a 5% or 10% discount. *c) Accomodate different customers types in the pricing policy* The new business apps user category is different from the standard ERP users. They have very different perceptions of the product's value, but can grow in modules used and eventually become full ERP users. These users expect a more App-oriented pricing model, at least until they reach a usage level that makes them prefer the ERP pricing. I believe that business apps and quickstart over SaaS concepts are powerful and can be strategic for OpenERP's growth. But OpenERP is missing a few things for that to take off: certified modules and localizations usable on SaaS; support for dev / productions environments on SaaS, with tooling for packaging changes and deploying between them; improve the GUI customization tools (view editors are partly broken; some field changes are impossible). The more I think on it, the more I believe that module certification can have a multiplier effect on several revenue stream for OpenERP. I hope this gets to be helpful in some way. Best to all /DR ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help :
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Hi Fabien, sorry for late reply, i was out of my office on last days, but i hope this reply helps to you and OpenERP SA to make better business relations with partners, customers and community. First, we (Cubic ERP S.A.C.) only sell hours, we don't sell software because it is free, then we sell hours of consulting (funcional, technical and training) to our customers. Then to start this business we first invest on education, like a MBA and others, to us consultants. Then we invest paying to OpenERP SA the partnership and training (about USD$6000) and to initiate the CTP contract prepay about USD$6500 more, finally, we pay 2 years more of partnership and bought one OEE. About the revenues for sell OEE i get 10%, and for sell courses i get about 50% minus the traveling expenses. I not include on this the hours sold because to deliver this service i not need the OpenERP SA support, and the investment to make or hire a consultant is outside of scope of OpenERP SA, noted please, we don't consume the 2 support hours offered on the partnership contract because we save this for a critical situations. About OEE earnings this is not good because in 3 years we only sold a OEE of 5 users. About the courses: - 1st year we sold all prepaid trainings (good) - 2nd year we sold training over the target of CTP Contract (very good) - 3th year OpenERP SA started sold the online trainings, then we sold few training and not achieve the target (very bad) Summary: - I invest on partnership an courses: about USD$12000 paid to OpenERP SA - I got 10% for sold OEE (OpenERP SA earn 90%) - I got about 20% for sold trainings (OpenERP SA earn only 50%, 30% traveling expenses) Make your maths... Best Regards 2014-02-24 4:43 GMT-05:00 Fabien Pinckaers f...@openerp.com: Dear Erick, from my point of view, OpenERP SA need change the way of make business, to let to their partners earn money too. This is very difficult because the head of OpenERP SA prove to be autocratic. An example of this show on http://v6.openerp.com/node/1311 slide 9 , that says: about the OEE partner prices, Any extra user, adobe the purchased contract, will be charged full price without discount, The only possibility to upgrade your contract is at renewal date. Hello Yuri, I would be very interested to know: - How much total revenue do you do on OpenERP ? - How much revenue do you do for OpenERP SA ? If you don't want to disclose your numbers, may be just a ratio between your revenue for OpenERP SA / Total Revenue you do on OpenERP. This would help me to understand if the revenue sharing is fair or not. Thanks, Then the first step is change of mind from one-to-win to all-to-win. Best Regards 2014-02-22 0:08 GMT-05:00 Eric Caudal eric.cau...@elico-corp.com mailto:eric.cau...@elico-corp.com: Hi OpenERP Partners, There has been some questioning about the OpenERP Enterprise Contract after some of Fabien's email and there is a real debate/questioning about the value that this contract brings to the final customer. Current value is difficult to sell and lies basically (at least in my current sales experience) on the migration and somehow on the bug fixing. Other advantages are more difficult to handle: - Private license has been a reason for me but I think this is very specific to some customers. - There are those 2 hours support but this is few and not proportional to the number of users ... - The other reasons (automatic update and security alerts) seems to me accessories and not decision-makers So now the question would be what would bring additional value to the contract that would really interest the end customer? I am thinking about the following advantages that could be added to the current package (for same price): - one certification voucher - one access to a dashboard to check one or several OpenERP instance health (with statistics and alert if down) - specific Android application, only available if a valid contract is up (could be business oriented or support oriented) What about you? -- Eric Caudal /CEO/ -- *Elico Corporation, Shanghai branch /OpenERP Premium Certified Training Partner/ * Cell: + 86 186 2136 1670 Office: + 86 21 6211 8017/27/37 Skype: elico.corp eric.cau...@elico-corp.com mailto:eric.cau...@elico-corp.com http://www.elico-corp.com Elico Corp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net mailto:openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Yury Tello Canchapoma TeraData SAC http://www.teradata.com.pe
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Hi Fabien, nice the new OEE. Next some comments: - About the One2many Services, may be generate conflicts with the current services offered by some partners like to bug fixing, trainings, and consulting services. - The open core strategy is good to close part of the source code and get more revenues - skip the partner and sell directly you do it today ;) - stop partnership with partners that don't generate revenues, it is a autocratic style. I suggest to change the partner term by reseller, to be clear about the partner function. Best Regards -- Yury Tello Canchapoma TeraData SAC http://www.teradata.com.pe Telecomunicaciones, Software Seguridad Telef.:(+51 1) 536 anexo 20 Av. Arenales 395 Of. 507 - Lima 1 - Peru ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
I suggest to change the partner term by reseller, to be clear about the partner function. As you know, there are many services provided by partners. Another idea is to 'tag' partners: Reseller, Design, Development, Implementation, Integrator, Hosting, Training, Support, Migration, etc Ray. *From:* Openerp-community [mailto:openerp-community-bounces+rcarnes= ursainfosystems@lists.launchpad.net] *On Behalf Of *Yury Tello *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2014 3:55 PM *To:* Fabien Pinckaers *Cc:* openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net *Subject:* Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value... Hi Fabien, nice the new OEE. Next some comments: - About the One2many Services, may be generate conflicts with the current services offered by some partners like to bug fixing, trainings, and consulting services. - The open core strategy is good to close part of the source code and get more revenues - skip the partner and sell directly you do it today ;) - stop partnership with partners that don't generate revenues, it is a autocratic style. I suggest to change the partner term by reseller, to be clear about the partner function. Best Regards -- Yury Tello Canchapoma TeraData SAC http://www.teradata.com.pe Telecomunicaciones, Software Seguridad Telef.:(+51 1) 536 anexo 20 Av. Arenales 395 Of. 507 - Lima 1 - Peru ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Title: Eric CAUDAL Difficulty is how you tag and based on which criteria. It would mean some kind of certification and we are far from that. Eric Caudal CEO -- Elico Corporation, Shanghai branch OpenERP Premium Certified Training Partner Cell: + 86 186 2136 1670 Office: + 86 21 6211 8017/27/37 Skype: elico.corp eric.cau...@elico-corp.com http://www.elico-corp.com On 03/01/2014 08:06 AM, Ray Carnes - Implementation Strategy wrote: I suggest to change the partner term by reseller, to be clear about the partner function. As you know, there are many services provided by partners. Another idea is to tag partners: Reseller, Design, Development, Implementation, Integrator, Hosting, Training, Support, Migration, etc Ray. From: Openerp-community [mailto:openerp-community-bounces+rcarnes=ursainfosystems@lists.launchpad.net] On Behalf Of Yury Tello Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 3:55 PM To: Fabien Pinckaers Cc: openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value... Hi Fabien, nice the new OEE. Next some comments: - About the One2many Services, may be generate conflicts with the current services offered by some partners like to bug fixing, trainings, and consulting services. - The open core strategy is good to close part of the source code and get more revenues - "skip the partner and sell directly" you do it today ;) - "stop partnership with partners that don't generate revenues", it is a autocratic style. I suggest to change the partner term by reseller, to be clear about the partner function. Best Regards -- Yury Tello Canchapoma TeraData SAC http://www.teradata.com.pe Telecomunicaciones, Software Seguridad Telef.:(+51 1) 536 anexo 20 Av. Arenales 395 Of. 507 - Lima 1 - Peru ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Hi Ray, i suggest only RESELLER because in the other services Design, Development, Implementation, Integrator, Hosting, Training, Support, Migration, etc you are in conflict with OpenERP's One2many services and quotations submitted by OpenERP SA directly to end customers. Regards 2014-02-28 19:06 GMT-05:00 Ray Carnes - Implementation Strategy rcar...@ursainfosystems.com: I suggest to change the partner term by reseller, to be clear about the partner function. As you know, there are many services provided by partners. Another idea is to 'tag' partners: Reseller, Design, Development, Implementation, Integrator, Hosting, Training, Support, Migration, etc Ray. *From:* Openerp-community [mailto:openerp-community-bounces+rcarnes= ursainfosystems@lists.launchpad.net] *On Behalf Of *Yury Tello *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2014 3:55 PM *To:* Fabien Pinckaers *Cc:* openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net *Subject:* Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value... Hi Fabien, nice the new OEE. Next some comments: - About the One2many Services, may be generate conflicts with the current services offered by some partners like to bug fixing, trainings, and consulting services. - The open core strategy is good to close part of the source code and get more revenues - skip the partner and sell directly you do it today ;) - stop partnership with partners that don't generate revenues, it is a autocratic style. I suggest to change the partner term by reseller, to be clear about the partner function. Best Regards -- Yury Tello Canchapoma TeraData SAC http://www.teradata.com.pe Telecomunicaciones, Software Seguridad Telef.:(+51 1) 536 anexo 20 Av. Arenales 395 Of. 507 - Lima 1 - Peru -- Yury Tello Canchapoma TeraData SAC http://www.teradata.com.pe Telecomunicaciones, Software Seguridad Telef.:(+51 1) 536 anexo 20 Av. Arenales 395 Of. 507 - Lima 1 - Peru ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Tello, Interesting numbers, thank you for sharing. But, 30% traveling expenses , why it cost so much ? -- Jeff Wang | j...@osbzr.com | 18016291663 |02158980787 @OpenERP_Jeff As simple as possible, As complex asneeded Maintainer of Open ERP china community http://www.openerp-china.org -- Original -- From: Yury Tello;yte...@cubicerp.com; Date: Sat, Mar 1, 2014 03:20 AM To: Fabien Pinckaersf...@openerp.com; openerp-community@lists.launchpad.netopenerp-community@lists.launchpad.net; Subject: Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value... Hi Fabien, sorry for late reply, i was out of my office onlast days, but i hope this reply helps to you and OpenERP SA tomake better business relations with partners, customers andcommunity. First, we (Cubic ERP S.A.C.) only sell hours, we don'tsell software because it is free, then we sell hours of consulting(funcional, technical and training) to our customers. Then to start this business we first invest on education, likea MBA and others, to us consultants. Then we invest paying toOpenERP SA the partnership and training (about USD$6000) and toinitiate the CTP contract prepay about USD$6500 more, finally, wepay 2 years more of partnership and bought one OEE. About the revenues for sell OEE i get 10%, and for sellcourses i get about 50% minus the traveling expenses. I not includeon this the hours sold because to deliver this service i not needthe OpenERP SA support, and the investment to make or hire aconsultant is outside of scope of OpenERP SA, noted please, wedon't consume the 2 support hours offered on the partnershipcontract because we save this for a critical situations. About OEE earnings this is not good because in 3 years we onlysold a OEE of 5 users. About the courses: - 1st year we sold all prepaid trainings (good) - 2nd year we sold training over the target of CTP Contract(very good) - 3th year OpenERP SA started sold the online trainings, thenwe sold few training and not achieve the target (very bad) Summary: - I invest on partnership an courses: about USD$12000 paid toOpenERP SA - I got 10% for sold OEE (OpenERP SA earn 90%) - I got about 20% for sold trainings (OpenERP SA earn only50%, 30% traveling expenses) Make your maths... Best Regards 2014-02-24 4:43 GMT-05:00 Fabien Pinckaersf...@openerp.com: Dear Erick, from my point of view, OpenERP SAneed change the way of make business, to let to their partners earn money too. Thisis very difficult because the head of OpenERP SA prove to beautocratic. An example of this show on http://v6.openerp.com/node/1311 slide 9 , that says: about the OEE partner prices, Any extra user,adobe the purchased contract, will be charged full price without discount, Theonly possibility to upgrade your contract is at renewaldate. Hello Yuri, I would be very interested to know: - How much total revenue do you do on OpenERP ? - How much revenue do you do for OpenERP SA ? If you don't want to disclose your numbers, may be just a ratiobetween your revenue for OpenERP SA / Total Revenue youdo on OpenERP. This would help me to understand if the revenue sharing is fair ornot. Thanks, Then the first step is change of mind from one-to-win toall-to-win. Best Regards 2014-02-22 0:08 GMT-05:00 Eric Caudal eric.cau...@elico-corp.com mailto:eric.cau...@elico-corp.com: Hi OpenERP Partners, There has been some questioning about the OpenERPEnterprise Contract after some of Fabien's email and there is areal debate/questioning about the value that this contract bringsto the final customer. Current value is difficult to sell and lies basically (atleast in my current sales experience) on the migration and somehow onthe bug fixing. Other advantages are more difficult to handle: - Private license has been a reason for me but I think this isvery specific to some customers. - There are those 2 hours support but this is few and not proportional to the number of users ... - The other reasons (automatic update and security alerts)seems to me accessories and not decision-makers So now the question would be what would bring additional valueto the contract that would really interest the end customer? I am thinking about the following advantages that could beadded to the current package (for same price): - one certification voucher - one access to a dashboard to check one or several OpenERPinstance health (with statistics and alert if down) - specific Android application, only available if a validcontract is up (could be business oriented or support oriented) What about you? -- Eric Caudal /CEO/ -- *Elico Corporation, Shanghai branch /OpenERP Premium Certified Training Partner/ * Cell: + 86 186 2136 1670 Office: + 86 21 6211 8017/27/37 Skype: elico.corp eric.cau...@elico-corp.commailto:eric.cau...@elico-corp.com http://www.elico-corp.com Elico Corp
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
I know your are joking, but OenERP SA is not joking toward this when they anounced OPENERP QUICKSTART slide on the opendays -- Jeff Wang | j...@osbzr.com | 18016291663 |02158980787 @OpenERP_Jeff As simple as possible, As complex asneeded Maintainer of Open ERP china community http://www.openerp-china.org -- Original -- From: Yury Tello;yte...@cubicerp.com; Date: Sat, Mar 1, 2014 03:08 PM To: Ray Carnes - Implementation Strategyrcar...@ursainfosystems.com; Cc: openerp-community@lists.launchpad.netopenerp-community@lists.launchpad.net; Fabien Pinckaersf...@openerp.com; Subject: Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value... Hi Ray, i suggest only RESELLER because in theother services Design, Development, Implementation,Integrator, Hosting, Training, Support, Migration, etc youare in conflict with OpenERP's One2many services and quotationssubmitted by OpenERP SA directly to end customers. Regards 2014-02-28 19:06 GMT-05:00 Ray Carnes -Implementation Strategy rcar...@ursainfosystems.com: I suggest to change the partner term by reseller,to be clear about the partner function. As you know, there are many services provided bypartners. Another idea is to ??tag?? partners: Reseller, Design, Development, Implementation, Integrator, Hosting,Training, Support, Migration, etc Ray. From:Openerp-community[mailto:openerp-community-bounces+rcarnes=ursainfosystems@lists.launchpad.net] On BehalfOf Yury Tello Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 3:55 PM To: Fabien Pinckaers Cc: openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprisecontract value... Hi Fabien, nice the new OEE. Next somecomments: - About the One2many Services, may be generateconflicts with the current services offered by some partners liketo bug fixing, trainings, and consulting services. - The open core strategy is good to close partof the source code and get more revenues - skip the partner and selldirectly you do it today ;) - stop partnership with partners thatdon't generate revenues, it is a autocratic style. I suggest to change the partner term byreseller, to be clear about the partner function. Best Regards -- Yury Tello Canchapoma TeraData SAC http://www.teradata.com.pe Telecomunicaciones, Software Seguridad Telef.:(+51 1) 536 anexo 20 Av. Arenales 395 Of. 507 - Lima 1 - Peru -- Yury Tello Canchapoma TeraData SAC http://www.teradata.com.pe Telecomunicaciones, Software Seguridad Telef.:(+51 1) 536 anexo 20 Av. Arenales 395 Of. 507 - Lima 1 - Peru___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
I'm not a partner and here are the blocking point that did make sell partner contract experienced on ongoing partner contract : - the never merged patches while we upgrade the servers every month, we found that some reported bugs have been reported 4 months ago. We spent time(investigated, reporting the bug and applying the patch) and charge the customer for this time while it should has been avoid if the patch was merged on the code. - the never ending story about explaining a bug and the way to reproduce it(event if sometime it's just obvious) to support - the never merged patches provided for bug we met and fixed - the selling users warranty per pack : sellling a new contract of 10 users. Let's say you get the half of the price, selling 3 more users you just get nothing on these three new contract - the impossibility the get a pack of 100 or 200 users and distribute it on different databases while paying for all the users. if we don't complain about the included services in an Entreprise contract there is a big issue with the quality and the unflexibility. So for us, this is a blocking issue and for now a no go for suscribing as Partner and selling entreprise contract... But we see a wiling to change and maybe to improve this from OpenERP... So we still waiting and seeing it the shadow... 2014-02-25 21:04 GMT+01:00 Ray Carnes - Implementation Strategy rcar...@ursainfosystems.com: At Ursa, we have not agreed to help a single customer who HAS NOT also agreed to purchase the warranty. We question the long term success of those customers who don't see this as a requirement. We just don't see how we can make them successful if we don't have a warranty to fall back on - we can't even upgrade them - so that isn't much help to them. Also, why 'take' from the ecosystem without 'giving' something back. All of our customers understand that EVERYONE needs to make money. (USA market - I understand in other markets the price is seen as having different value) Ray. *From:* Openerp-community [mailto:openerp-community-bounces+rcarnes= ursainfosystems@lists.launchpad.net] *On Behalf Of *Nhomar Hernández *Sent:* Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:52 AM *To:* Fabien Pinckaers *Cc:* OpenERP Community *Subject:* Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value... 2014-02-25 12:43 GMT-06:00 Fabien Pinckaers f...@openerp.com: Things that could work but I would like to avoid: - don't release bugfixes publicly (only for customers) - don't release new developments (an open core strategy), e.g. we invest to clean accounting and we charge for these modules in v8. - skip the partner and sell directly (at least for bad partners) - stop partnership with partners that don't generate revenues but costs us money This points are the correct point to discuss, because a lot of people don't understand that push in the wrong direction (stoping or even don't include OpenERP services in them contracts) is push to these Must Avoid points, every single analysis with the Normal Commercial Points of view brings to these conclusions, and in the OpenERP World it can bring more problems than solutions, even to the best ones. I prefer help to understand the people the value of the offer before encourage people to avoid some costs that the customer MUST pay. I remark the must because a lot of people want to avoid this costs for one reason or another and at the end of the day it is more dangerous than beneficial, and the customer WILL pay it in one way or another at the end of the day, Why not be more transparent with them?. In our side numbers are not as good as you point yet but I must accept i made some mistakes too in the past!, it should help a lot some strategy documentation to everybody to follow a better explained roadmap. One of things you should try to do is Coach partners in the usage efficiently of the Enterprise (and all services), it can bring a real good value to your offer, and avoid misunderstood in the middle, even old partners that are in ready stage yet, is so probable is because they don't understand the model and/or the added value and how efficiently use it. Another thing is the God Father approach which means, may be these 30% of partners can find a clear and transparent way to help the other 30% of partners to make money (it is just an Idea). Even the bigger ones will have big issues sometimes, because the perception must be pointed to build Long term relations with end-users THROUGH a Long term relation with partners, this message must to be clear and absolutely obvious for everybody to avoid misunderstood in the middle. I will make more comments around other points by point to don't mix arguments. +1 Fabien kudos for your email -- Saludos Cordiales Nhomar G. Hernandez M. +58-414-4110269 Skype: nhomar00 Web-Blog: http://geronimo.com.ve Servicios IT: http
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
OpenERP Enterprise Eric and All, Thanks for providing such a feedback. I read all mails and I will try to answer everyone's question here. *Why is OpenERP Enterprise Key for OpenERP?* As an introduction, OpenERP Enterprise is key for OpenERP as it finances all our RD and marketing investment. The OpenERP Enterprise service offer is what allowed to release v6, v6.1, v7, v8, and future ones. Building an exceptionnal product requires to invest a lot in RD, which is very different than building new features on top of customer projects. If we would not have invested in RD, OpenERP would still be like this: http://www.cyclaero.com/OpenERP/OpenERP5-screenshot.png In others words, OpenERP would be dead as it could not compete with existing players. And most partners would have left OpenERP too as OpenERP services companies were not profitable on versions 6 or earlier. OpenERP Enterprise is key for customers too. In the past, with SAP or others, customers used to buy one version of a product and stay with it for 7 years. They never upgrade and, after 7 years, they are so deprecated that they usually completly migrate to another software. I want to build a service where customer evolve with the software, where they can benefit from new features frequently and where partners grow by selling to existing users, not only to new ones. I want to build long term relationship with our users where migrations are not a technical pain, but where an upgrade to a future version is a way for customers to benefit from lots of new features. For new community members, you can learn our business model in this 3 years old post: http://v6.openerp.com/node/465 *Why is it super hard to have such a business model?* We invest more than 45% of our charges in the product and it's super important to keep such a high ratio for the future of OpenERP. (mostly in RD, but with a bit of marketing too) To sustain publisher activities, as our cost of sales is ~30%, it means we need a service with 75% gross margin to be break-even. Such a business model is SUPER HARD. It's not possible to sustain a RD department with services like consulting, support, development, training, etc. as these services do not allow 75% gross margin. As we don't want to sell licences (proprietary models easily allow 70% gross margin), the only solution we found without crossing the non open source line is what I would call One 2 Many services. Things we do once but provides a value for several customers. This allow us to leverage the size effect. Maintenance is the best example of One2many services: - bugs are fixed once for everyone - upgrade costs a lot for the firsts 100 customers but then it's less than 4 hours of work per customer. The service is also SUPER HARD to deliver at a low price (unlimited maintenance tickets, upgrades at no extra costs). No other publisher in the world has such an offer. In all others ERPs, upgrades costs 10x the price we charge with OpenERP. The good news is that we succeeded this super hard challenge as we are break-even (but it costed us a few millions eur to deploy the model) *What's the current status?* OpenERP Enterprise is a great success: 1000+ customers, 50% of our current revenues, 84% gross margin, only 13.07% annual churn [1], 84% growth YoY, ~600 db upgraded in 2013. Having only 13% churn is incredibly good. It means that a customer who choosed OpenERP Enterprise stays on average 7.7 years with us. The reasons why customers stop subscribing to OpenERP Enterprise: - 5.25% Don't Use OpenERP: project failure due to partner/customer - 3.41% No value perceived - 0.71% Unstatisfied by service - 3.63% Financial issue (no more money, includes customer/partner bankruptcy) - The rest renew their OpenERP Enterprise subscription after one year But we also had some failures, mostly in getting new customers. Once a customer purchased the service, they mostly stay with it. (87%, which is more than ok) For getting new customers, I would say our main failure is the value perceived BY THE PARTNER. We still have a lot of partners (I would say 30% but I have no exact number) that don't sell OpenERP Enterprise for different reasons. This is not a critic of the partners as I know it's not easy to understand the value and how to benefit from it. I had the same problems with our own sales 2 years ago, they always tried to apply big discount. Now we solved this for our sales. Over the past years, we didn't try to fix this and we focused only the good partners. (70% of our revenues are done by only 30% of our partners) Our way to solve the problem was to redirect all our efforts on good partners (leads, time spent, public visibility, ...). But I think we can now improve and openly discuss so that we try to fit everyone's need. *What are the values of OpenERP Enterprise?* OpenERP Enterprise's values are: 1/ upgrade to future versions 2/ unlimited bugfix guarantee 3/ ability to merge bugs in stable branch
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
2014-02-25 12:43 GMT-06:00 Fabien Pinckaers f...@openerp.com: Things that could work but I would like to avoid: - don't release bugfixes publicly (only for customers) - don't release new developments (an open core strategy), e.g. we invest to clean accounting and we charge for these modules in v8. - skip the partner and sell directly (at least for bad partners) - stop partnership with partners that don't generate revenues but costs us money This points are the correct point to discuss, because a lot of people don't understand that push in the wrong direction (stoping or even don't include OpenERP services in them contracts) is push to these Must Avoid points, every single analysis with the Normal Commercial Points of view brings to these conclusions, and in the OpenERP World it can bring more problems than solutions, even to the best ones. I prefer help to understand the people the value of the offer before encourage people to avoid some costs that the customer MUST pay. I remark the must because a lot of people want to avoid this costs for one reason or another and at the end of the day it is more dangerous than beneficial, and the customer WILL pay it in one way or another at the end of the day, Why not be more transparent with them?. In our side numbers are not as good as you point yet but I must accept i made some mistakes too in the past!, it should help a lot some strategy documentation to everybody to follow a better explained roadmap. One of things you should try to do is Coach partners in the usage efficiently of the Enterprise (and all services), it can bring a real good value to your offer, and avoid misunderstood in the middle, even old partners that are in ready stage yet, is so probable is because they don't understand the model and/or the added value and how efficiently use it. Another thing is the God Father approach which means, may be these 30% of partners can find a clear and transparent way to help the other 30% of partners to make money (it is just an Idea). Even the bigger ones will have big issues sometimes, because the perception must be pointed to build Long term relations with end-users THROUGH a Long term relation with partners, this message must to be clear and absolutely obvious for everybody to avoid misunderstood in the middle. I will make more comments around other points by point to don't mix arguments. +1 Fabien kudos for your email -- Saludos Cordiales Nhomar G. Hernandez M. +58-414-4110269 Skype: nhomar00 Web-Blog: http://geronimo.com.ve Servicios IT: http://vauxoo.com Linux-Counter: 467724 Correos: nho...@openerp.com.ve nho...@vauxoo.com twitter @nhomar ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
After reading Fabien's answer, I can only say, I trust OpenERP SA, if a OpenSource company knows its numbers as OpenERP does, It means total succes. On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 1:51 PM, Nhomar Hernández nho...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-02-25 12:43 GMT-06:00 Fabien Pinckaers f...@openerp.com: Things that could work but I would like to avoid: - don't release bugfixes publicly (only for customers) - don't release new developments (an open core strategy), e.g. we invest to clean accounting and we charge for these modules in v8. - skip the partner and sell directly (at least for bad partners) - stop partnership with partners that don't generate revenues but costs us money This points are the correct point to discuss, because a lot of people don't understand that push in the wrong direction (stoping or even don't include OpenERP services in them contracts) is push to these Must Avoid points, every single analysis with the Normal Commercial Points of view brings to these conclusions, and in the OpenERP World it can bring more problems than solutions, even to the best ones. I prefer help to understand the people the value of the offer before encourage people to avoid some costs that the customer MUST pay. I remark the must because a lot of people want to avoid this costs for one reason or another and at the end of the day it is more dangerous than beneficial, and the customer WILL pay it in one way or another at the end of the day, Why not be more transparent with them?. In our side numbers are not as good as you point yet but I must accept i made some mistakes too in the past!, it should help a lot some strategy documentation to everybody to follow a better explained roadmap. One of things you should try to do is Coach partners in the usage efficiently of the Enterprise (and all services), it can bring a real good value to your offer, and avoid misunderstood in the middle, even old partners that are in ready stage yet, is so probable is because they don't understand the model and/or the added value and how efficiently use it. Another thing is the God Father approach which means, may be these 30% of partners can find a clear and transparent way to help the other 30% of partners to make money (it is just an Idea). Even the bigger ones will have big issues sometimes, because the perception must be pointed to build Long term relations with end-users THROUGH a Long term relation with partners, this message must to be clear and absolutely obvious for everybody to avoid misunderstood in the middle. I will make more comments around other points by point to don't mix arguments. +1 Fabien kudos for your email -- Saludos Cordiales Nhomar G. Hernandez M. +58-414-4110269 Skype: nhomar00 Web-Blog: http://geronimo.com.ve Servicios IT: http://vauxoo.com Linux-Counter: 467724 Correos: nho...@openerp.com.ve nho...@vauxoo.com twitter @nhomar ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Ing. Oscar Alcalá Rivera *312-107-1704* · oszc...@gmail.com ozc...@gmail.com Vauxoo SA Tlf: *312322* *Open Source Enthusiast* *LinuxCounter:**566085* [image: twitter] http://twitter.com/oscarolar [image: linkedIn]http://www.linkedin.com/pub/oscar-alcal%C3%A1/3b/a79/922 [image: Google+] http://plus.google.com/107659954580035981067/posts [image: eco] No me imprimas si no es necesario. Protejamos el medio ambiente ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
At Ursa, we have not agreed to help a single customer who HAS NOT also agreed to purchase the warranty. We question the long term success of those customers who don't see this as a requirement. We just don't see how we can make them successful if we don't have a warranty to fall back on - we can't even upgrade them - so that isn't much help to them. Also, why 'take' from the ecosystem without 'giving' something back. All of our customers understand that EVERYONE needs to make money. (USA market - I understand in other markets the price is seen as having different value) Ray. *From:* Openerp-community [mailto:openerp-community-bounces+rcarnes= ursainfosystems@lists.launchpad.net] *On Behalf Of *Nhomar Hernández *Sent:* Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:52 AM *To:* Fabien Pinckaers *Cc:* OpenERP Community *Subject:* Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value... 2014-02-25 12:43 GMT-06:00 Fabien Pinckaers f...@openerp.com: Things that could work but I would like to avoid: - don't release bugfixes publicly (only for customers) - don't release new developments (an open core strategy), e.g. we invest to clean accounting and we charge for these modules in v8. - skip the partner and sell directly (at least for bad partners) - stop partnership with partners that don't generate revenues but costs us money This points are the correct point to discuss, because a lot of people don't understand that push in the wrong direction (stoping or even don't include OpenERP services in them contracts) is push to these Must Avoid points, every single analysis with the Normal Commercial Points of view brings to these conclusions, and in the OpenERP World it can bring more problems than solutions, even to the best ones. I prefer help to understand the people the value of the offer before encourage people to avoid some costs that the customer MUST pay. I remark the must because a lot of people want to avoid this costs for one reason or another and at the end of the day it is more dangerous than beneficial, and the customer WILL pay it in one way or another at the end of the day, Why not be more transparent with them?. In our side numbers are not as good as you point yet but I must accept i made some mistakes too in the past!, it should help a lot some strategy documentation to everybody to follow a better explained roadmap. One of things you should try to do is Coach partners in the usage efficiently of the Enterprise (and all services), it can bring a real good value to your offer, and avoid misunderstood in the middle, even old partners that are in ready stage yet, is so probable is because they don't understand the model and/or the added value and how efficiently use it. Another thing is the God Father approach which means, may be these 30% of partners can find a clear and transparent way to help the other 30% of partners to make money (it is just an Idea). Even the bigger ones will have big issues sometimes, because the perception must be pointed to build Long term relations with end-users THROUGH a Long term relation with partners, this message must to be clear and absolutely obvious for everybody to avoid misunderstood in the middle. I will make more comments around other points by point to don't mix arguments. +1 Fabien kudos for your email -- Saludos Cordiales Nhomar G. Hernandez M. +58-414-4110269 Skype: nhomar00 Web-Blog: http://geronimo.com.ve Servicios IT: http://vauxoo.com Linux-Counter: 467724 Correos: nho...@openerp.com.ve nho...@vauxoo.com twitter @nhomar ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Dear Erick, from my point of view, OpenERP SA need change the way of make business, to let to their partners earn money too. This is very difficult because the head of OpenERP SA prove to be autocratic. An example of this show on http://v6.openerp.com/node/1311 slide 9 , that says: about the OEE partner prices, Any extra user, adobe the purchased contract, will be charged full price without discount, The only possibility to upgrade your contract is at renewal date. Hello Yuri, I would be very interested to know: - How much total revenue do you do on OpenERP ? - How much revenue do you do for OpenERP SA ? If you don't want to disclose your numbers, may be just a ratio between your revenue for OpenERP SA / Total Revenue you do on OpenERP. This would help me to understand if the revenue sharing is fair or not. Thanks, Then the first step is change of mind from one-to-win to all-to-win. Best Regards 2014-02-22 0:08 GMT-05:00 Eric Caudal eric.cau...@elico-corp.com mailto:eric.cau...@elico-corp.com: Hi OpenERP Partners, There has been some questioning about the OpenERP Enterprise Contract after some of Fabien's email and there is a real debate/questioning about the value that this contract brings to the final customer. Current value is difficult to sell and lies basically (at least in my current sales experience) on the migration and somehow on the bug fixing. Other advantages are more difficult to handle: - Private license has been a reason for me but I think this is very specific to some customers. - There are those 2 hours support but this is few and not proportional to the number of users ... - The other reasons (automatic update and security alerts) seems to me accessories and not decision-makers So now the question would be what would bring additional value to the contract that would really interest the end customer? I am thinking about the following advantages that could be added to the current package (for same price): - one certification voucher - one access to a dashboard to check one or several OpenERP instance health (with statistics and alert if down) - specific Android application, only available if a valid contract is up (could be business oriented or support oriented) What about you? -- Eric Caudal /CEO/ -- *Elico Corporation, Shanghai branch /OpenERP Premium Certified Training Partner/ * Cell: + 86 186 2136 1670 Office: + 86 21 6211 8017/27/37 Skype: elico.corp eric.cau...@elico-corp.com mailto:eric.cau...@elico-corp.com http://www.elico-corp.com Elico Corp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net mailto:openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Yury Tello Canchapoma TeraData SAC http://www.teradata.com.pe Telecomunicaciones, Software Seguridad Telef.:(+51 1) 536 anexo 20 Av. Arenales 395 Of. 507 - Lima 1 - Peru ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Fabien Pinckaers CEO OpenERP Chaussée de Namur 40 B-1367 Grand-Rosière Belgium Phone: +32.81.81.37.00 Fax: +32.81.73.35.01 Web: http://openerp.com ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Hello, The question is not the ratio between our earnings and OpenERP earnings. The question is the ratio, for the customer, between the cost and the value received. If the customer don't see enough value, there is just no earnings to share. For the customer, the perceived value is the migration. Our experience shows that, for the customer that migrated in 2013, it was hard to convince them to stay on board with the warranty. The price should adjust to the customer perceived value. A customer willing to migrate might be ready to pay 50% more. A customer that has already migrated, will be please to pay 50% less, and keep the warranty going. Cordiales salutations Eberhard J-A Directeur Certified OpenERP Functional Specialist Open Net Sàrl www.open-net.ch 59, Rue de l'industrie 1030 Bussigny T: +41 (21) 701 42 45 Autoroute A1, Sortie Crissier / Bussigny Bus TL 17, arrêt Croix-de-Plan - Mail original - De: Fabien Pinckaers f...@openerp.com À: openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Envoyé: Lundi 24 Février 2014 10:43:35 Objet: Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value... Dear Erick, from my point of view, OpenERP SA need change the way of make business, to let to their partners earn money too. This is very difficult because the head of OpenERP SA prove to be autocratic. An example of this show on http://v6.openerp.com/node/1311 slide 9 , that says: about the OEE partner prices, Any extra user, adobe the purchased contract, will be charged full price without discount, The only possibility to upgrade your contract is at renewal date. Hello Yuri, I would be very interested to know: - How much total revenue do you do on OpenERP ? - How much revenue do you do for OpenERP SA ? If you don't want to disclose your numbers, may be just a ratio between your revenue for OpenERP SA / Total Revenue you do on OpenERP. This would help me to understand if the revenue sharing is fair or not. Thanks, Then the first step is change of mind from one-to-win to all-to-win. Best Regards 2014-02-22 0:08 GMT-05:00 Eric Caudal eric.cau...@elico-corp.com mailto:eric.cau...@elico-corp.com: Hi OpenERP Partners, There has been some questioning about the OpenERP Enterprise Contract after some of Fabien's email and there is a real debate/questioning about the value that this contract brings to the final customer. Current value is difficult to sell and lies basically (at least in my current sales experience) on the migration and somehow on the bug fixing. Other advantages are more difficult to handle: - Private license has been a reason for me but I think this is very specific to some customers. - There are those 2 hours support but this is few and not proportional to the number of users ... - The other reasons (automatic update and security alerts) seems to me accessories and not decision-makers So now the question would be what would bring additional value to the contract that would really interest the end customer? I am thinking about the following advantages that could be added to the current package (for same price): - one certification voucher - one access to a dashboard to check one or several OpenERP instance health (with statistics and alert if down) - specific Android application, only available if a valid contract is up (could be business oriented or support oriented) What about you? -- Eric Caudal /CEO/ -- *Elico Corporation, Shanghai branch /OpenERP Premium Certified Training Partner/ * Cell: + 86 186 2136 1670 Office: + 86 21 6211 8017/27/37 Skype: elico.corp eric.cau...@elico-corp.com mailto:eric.cau...@elico-corp.com http://www.elico-corp.com Elico Corp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net mailto:openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Yury Tello Canchapoma TeraData SAC http://www.teradata.com.pe Telecomunicaciones, Software Seguridad Telef.:(+51 1) 536 anexo 20 Av. Arenales 395 Of. 507 - Lima 1 - Peru ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Fabien Pinckaers CEO OpenERP Chaussée de Namur 40 B-1367 Grand-Rosière Belgium Phone: +32.81.81.37.00 Fax: +32.81.73.35.01 Web
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
I'm agree with Eberhard, cost of migration it's the most expensive part of total cost. And our customers don't like it. Then like new features of OpenERP but they don't want to pay for migration too much. So they just still use old versions and I guess it's not good for OpenERP S.A. too. my 2 cents. 2014-02-24 17:14 GMT+07:00 J-A Eberhard / Open Net Sàrl j...@open-net.ch: Hello, The question is not the ratio between our earnings and OpenERP earnings. The question is the ratio, for the customer, between the cost and the value received. If the customer don't see enough value, there is just no earnings to share. For the customer, the perceived value is the migration. Our experience shows that, for the customer that migrated in 2013, it was hard to convince them to stay on board with the warranty. The price should adjust to the customer perceived value. A customer willing to migrate might be ready to pay 50% more. A customer that has already migrated, will be please to pay 50% less, and keep the warranty going. Cordiales salutations Eberhard J-A Directeur Certified OpenERP Functional Specialist Open Net Sàrl www.open-net.ch 59, Rue de l'industrie 1030 Bussigny T: +41 (21) 701 42 45 Autoroute A1, Sortie Crissier / Bussigny Bus TL 17, arrêt Croix-de-Plan - Mail original - De: Fabien Pinckaers f...@openerp.com À: openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Envoyé: Lundi 24 Février 2014 10:43:35 Objet: Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value... Dear Erick, from my point of view, OpenERP SA need change the way of make business, to let to their partners earn money too. This is very difficult because the head of OpenERP SA prove to be autocratic. An example of this show on http://v6.openerp.com/node/1311 slide 9 , that says: about the OEE partner prices, Any extra user, adobe the purchased contract, will be charged full price without discount, The only possibility to upgrade your contract is at renewal date. Hello Yuri, I would be very interested to know: - How much total revenue do you do on OpenERP ? - How much revenue do you do for OpenERP SA ? If you don't want to disclose your numbers, may be just a ratio between your revenue for OpenERP SA / Total Revenue you do on OpenERP. This would help me to understand if the revenue sharing is fair or not. Thanks, Then the first step is change of mind from one-to-win to all-to-win. Best Regards 2014-02-22 0:08 GMT-05:00 Eric Caudal eric.cau...@elico-corp.com mailto:eric.cau...@elico-corp.com: Hi OpenERP Partners, There has been some questioning about the OpenERP Enterprise Contract after some of Fabien's email and there is a real debate/questioning about the value that this contract brings to the final customer. Current value is difficult to sell and lies basically (at least in my current sales experience) on the migration and somehow on the bug fixing. Other advantages are more difficult to handle: - Private license has been a reason for me but I think this is very specific to some customers. - There are those 2 hours support but this is few and not proportional to the number of users ... - The other reasons (automatic update and security alerts) seems to me accessories and not decision-makers So now the question would be what would bring additional value to the contract that would really interest the end customer? I am thinking about the following advantages that could be added to the current package (for same price): - one certification voucher - one access to a dashboard to check one or several OpenERP instance health (with statistics and alert if down) - specific Android application, only available if a valid contract is up (could be business oriented or support oriented) What about you? -- Eric Caudal /CEO/ -- *Elico Corporation, Shanghai branch /OpenERP Premium Certified Training Partner/ * Cell: + 86 186 2136 1670 Office: + 86 21 6211 8017/27/37 Skype: elico.corp eric.cau...@elico-corp.com mailto:eric.cau...@elico-corp.com http://www.elico-corp.com Elico Corp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net mailto:openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Yury Tello Canchapoma TeraData SAC http://www.teradata.com.pe Telecomunicaciones, Software Seguridad Telef.:(+51 1) 536
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
i also agree that the pricing model should change and not the one price fits it all. i'm not an openerp partner but an enduser. For me the only value its migration too but i dont agree to pay for an 1 year enterprise contract for all user with all the things i actually dont need except migration. A problem for me is really that the cost is based on the number of users too. My company is located in china and the productivity of the staff here you cant compare with europe. You need to have roughly a double or tripple headcount in china compared to europe to get the same amount of work done which gives me an headache when i have to think about migrating to a new version of openerp. Also i'm Hosting openerp localy on my own server but why i should pay the same as someone who use openerp as SAAS hosted on openerp SA servers? regards Moritz Berrenberg On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 6:20 PM, Denis Karataev dskarat...@gmail.comwrote: I'm agree with Eberhard, cost of migration it's the most expensive part of total cost. And our customers don't like it. Then like new features of OpenERP but they don't want to pay for migration too much. So they just still use old versions and I guess it's not good for OpenERP S.A. too. my 2 cents. 2014-02-24 17:14 GMT+07:00 J-A Eberhard / Open Net Sàrl j...@open-net.ch: Hello, The question is not the ratio between our earnings and OpenERP earnings. The question is the ratio, for the customer, between the cost and the value received. If the customer don't see enough value, there is just no earnings to share. For the customer, the perceived value is the migration. Our experience shows that, for the customer that migrated in 2013, it was hard to convince them to stay on board with the warranty. The price should adjust to the customer perceived value. A customer willing to migrate might be ready to pay 50% more. A customer that has already migrated, will be please to pay 50% less, and keep the warranty going. Cordiales salutations Eberhard J-A Directeur Certified OpenERP Functional Specialist Open Net Sàrl www.open-net.ch 59, Rue de l'industrie 1030 Bussigny T: +41 (21) 701 42 45 Autoroute A1, Sortie Crissier / Bussigny Bus TL 17, arrêt Croix-de-Plan - Mail original - De: Fabien Pinckaers f...@openerp.com À: openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Envoyé: Lundi 24 Février 2014 10:43:35 Objet: Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value... Dear Erick, from my point of view, OpenERP SA need change the way of make business, to let to their partners earn money too. This is very difficult because the head of OpenERP SA prove to be autocratic. An example of this show on http://v6.openerp.com/node/1311 slide 9 , that says: about the OEE partner prices, Any extra user, adobe the purchased contract, will be charged full price without discount, The only possibility to upgrade your contract is at renewal date. Hello Yuri, I would be very interested to know: - How much total revenue do you do on OpenERP ? - How much revenue do you do for OpenERP SA ? If you don't want to disclose your numbers, may be just a ratio between your revenue for OpenERP SA / Total Revenue you do on OpenERP. This would help me to understand if the revenue sharing is fair or not. Thanks, Then the first step is change of mind from one-to-win to all-to-win. Best Regards 2014-02-22 0:08 GMT-05:00 Eric Caudal eric.cau...@elico-corp.com mailto:eric.cau...@elico-corp.com: Hi OpenERP Partners, There has been some questioning about the OpenERP Enterprise Contract after some of Fabien's email and there is a real debate/questioning about the value that this contract brings to the final customer. Current value is difficult to sell and lies basically (at least in my current sales experience) on the migration and somehow on the bug fixing. Other advantages are more difficult to handle: - Private license has been a reason for me but I think this is very specific to some customers. - There are those 2 hours support but this is few and not proportional to the number of users ... - The other reasons (automatic update and security alerts) seems to me accessories and not decision-makers So now the question would be what would bring additional value to the contract that would really interest the end customer? I am thinking about the following advantages that could be added to the current package (for same price): - one certification voucher - one access to a dashboard to check one or several OpenERP instance health (with statistics and alert if down) - specific Android application, only available if a valid contract is up (could
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Hello J-A Le 24/02/2014 11:14, J-A Eberhard / Open Net Sàrl a écrit : The price should adjust to the customer perceived value. A customer willing to migrate might be ready to pay 50% more. A customer that has already migrated, will be please to pay 50% less, and keep the warranty going. When OPW was set, expected migration pace was 6-12 months, it is now 18-24 months. New releases saves maintenance costs of old versions. So I think the customer who doesn't want to migrate and keeps old versions should pay more than the one who just uses the last version. my 2cts -- Dominique Chabord - SISalp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
On 2014-02-24 14:50, Dominique Chabord wrote: * For big companies it is out of question to migrate every 6,12,18 month The old system we have developed was enhanced in functionality, but no migration was necessary for +25 YEARS!!! We just changed the hardware, the underlying database versions etc. but this was not visible to the user. Hence no cost for re-education, no problems of changed behaviour, no uncertainty * The problem is not so much the migration of OpenERP modules, but the modules created by partners for their clients. As a partner you can not guarantee the client, that a module which was developed for him for v6 will work in v7 without minor or major redesign. Many client will not accept this situation. Unfortunately the changes are not well documented (at least to my knowledge) and must be reverse engineered, which is costly. - Just to name a few .. the list is almost endless o change of partner / address model o lost functionality of base contact o merge of project - analytic account o loss of wiki in v8 (the blog does not replace it fully) o redesign of various forms often require redesign of inherited forms. * These cost on the partner side are not covered by the OPW and the 800EUR/ 1000loc. The table below gives estimated 37.000EUR migration cost at OpenERP rates for c2c-rd-addons, difficult to convince small customers to pay this every year (each release) or so. Many of these modules (1000 community modules!!! for full featured OpenERP) enhance basic modules - provide missing functionality, which is sometimes provided completely or partial (that is a major problem) in the next release. On top nobody knows if migrated modules will work as expected, without thorough tests by partner and client, costs which are obviously not included in the 800EUR/1000loc but real. A partner never will take the responsibility and install (complex) modules migrated by a third party without testing them. Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC)= 47,231 To sum up: I am not against development and OpenERP does a good job here. It's just very costly for partners to follow and hence reduces the profitability. just my 2-3¢ Ferdinand Hello J-A Le 24/02/2014 11:14, J-A Eberhard / Open Net Sàrl a écrit : The price should adjust to the customer perceived value. A customer willing to migrate might be ready to pay 50% more. A customer that has already migrated, will be please to pay 50% less, and keep the warranty going. When OPW was set, expected migration pace was 6-12 months, it is now 18-24 months. New releases saves maintenance costs of old versions. So I think the customer who doesn't want to migrate and keeps old versions should pay more than the one who just uses the last version. my 2cts -- Ferdinand ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Dear Erick, from my point of view, OpenERP SA need change the way of make business, to let to their partners earn money too. This is very difficult because the head of OpenERP SA prove to be autocratic. An example of this show on http://v6.openerp.com/node/1311 slide 9 , that says: about the OEE partner prices, Any extra user, adobe the purchased contract, will be charged full price without discount, The only possibility to upgrade your contract is at renewal date. Then the first step is change of mind from one-to-win to all-to-win. Best Regards 2014-02-22 0:08 GMT-05:00 Eric Caudal eric.cau...@elico-corp.com: Hi OpenERP Partners, There has been some questioning about the OpenERP Enterprise Contract after some of Fabien's email and there is a real debate/questioning about the value that this contract brings to the final customer. Current value is difficult to sell and lies basically (at least in my current sales experience) on the migration and somehow on the bug fixing. Other advantages are more difficult to handle: - Private license has been a reason for me but I think this is very specific to some customers. - There are those 2 hours support but this is few and not proportional to the number of users ... - The other reasons (automatic update and security alerts) seems to me accessories and not decision-makers So now the question would be what would bring additional value to the contract that would really interest the end customer? I am thinking about the following advantages that could be added to the current package (for same price): - one certification voucher - one access to a dashboard to check one or several OpenERP instance health (with statistics and alert if down) - specific Android application, only available if a valid contract is up (could be business oriented or support oriented) What about you? -- Eric Caudal*CEO* --*Elico Corporation, Shanghai branch OpenERP Premium Certified Training Partner * Cell: + 86 186 2136 1670 Office: + 86 21 6211 8017/27/37 Skype: elico.corperic.caudal@elico-corp.comhttp://www.elico-corp.com [image: Elico Corp] ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Yury Tello Canchapoma TeraData SAC http://www.teradata.com.pe Telecomunicaciones, Software Seguridad Telef.:(+51 1) 536 anexo 20 Av. Arenales 395 Of. 507 - Lima 1 - Peru inline: image/jpeg___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Hi Eric, I was talking Thursday to my account manager just about this. Not with the purpose of complaining about it, but because we are worried. I know this has been a delicate subject in the relationship of OpenERP with its partners (at least some of them). And I really appreciate your approach. Let's try to work together to solve this. From my point of view, it is a problem of rigidity of the service. I don't think that adding extra features to the Enterprise contract will work. The service should be available in independent items. For example, we should be able to have a migration contract alone, without bug fixing. Or viceversa. Also, there are projects that are not the usual implementation. For example, we are getting ready to start a SaaS offer for out-of-the-box customers. We reached to OpenERP to find a good solution so they could help us support the platform. Our thinking was that OpenERP has experience with this with its own SaaS service. But the answer was to charge the usual user fee and get a normal Enterprise contract for each database. From a business point of view this is not viable. It doubles (at least) our cost. And we are not asking to answer to all customers directly for bug reports, we are asking to answer to us, we would be in charge of getting the fixes online and doing the triage to report only valid bugs. This would drastically lower the work for OpenERP. But we couldn't reach any understanding in the negotiation. So we are going live without the participation of OpenERP. The above example is just to illustrate what I mean by rigidity of the Enterprise offer. We are aware it is not because OpenERP's team is not willing to sell services, it is because a corporate policy that they only can offer the Enterprise offer as it is. I would like to make OpenERP earn money on each project we do. We are 100% clear that it is the best way to go. But it has to be profitable for us. After all this is a business, we are here to make profits. If we had a larger service offer from OpenERP, or if OpenERP would be open to find custom solutions with us, we could be more creative to integrate its services in our own. For now, the one-size-fits-all offer is stopping us. It works for mid-size (or bigger) projects, with enough budget, and where the customer is willing to outsource the support and not getting its IT team to do it. Other cases are hard to sell and/or not profitable. The other services we can buy are hour based services we don't need. This is what our team does. I rather pay my team to do this, because I make profit with the same price (or lower in the case of an analyst), and because it is the reason to have such a team. We really hope we, OpenERP and the partners, can get somewhere with this. There are a lot of things we can do to improve the situation and transform it into a win-win relationship. I am 100% open to discuss this further, as it is something very important. PS: I don't know if this is the proper channel to discuss this. Can someone at OpenERP tell us which one is? (And get involved please :-) ). Regards, -- PS: escribí este email desde mi teléfono, por favor disculpe la brevedad y cualquier error de escritura. Carlos Vásquez CTO · Director de Ingeniería carlos.vasq...@clearcorp.co.cr CR: +(506) 4000 CORP (4000 2677) US: +1 (786) 472-4267 Cel: +(506) 8351 4484 skype: crvasquez twitter: cvclearcorp 300 m. Este de la Escuela Calle de Platanares 11402 San Jerónimo, Moravia San José, Costa Rica http://www.clearcorp.co.cr ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Openerp-community] About OpenERP Enterprise contract value...
Title: Eric CAUDAL Hi OpenERP Partners, There has been some questioning about the OpenERP Enterprise Contract after some of Fabien's email and there is a real debate/questioning about the value that this contract brings to the final customer. Current value is difficult to sell and lies basically (at least in my current sales experience) on the migration and somehow on the bug fixing. Other advantages are more difficult to handle: - Private license has been a reason for me but I think this is very specific to some customers. - There are those 2 hours support but this is few and not proportional to the number of users ... - The other reasons (automatic update and security alerts) seems to me accessories and not decision-makers So now the question would be what would bring additional value to the contract that would really interest the end customer? I am thinking about the following advantages that could be added to the current package (for same price): - one certification voucher - one access to a dashboard to check one or several OpenERP instance health (with statistics and alert if down) - specific Android application, only available if a valid contract is up (could be business oriented or support oriented) What about you? -- Eric Caudal CEO -- Elico Corporation, Shanghai branch OpenERP Premium Certified Training Partner Cell: + 86 186 2136 1670 Office: + 86 21 6211 8017/27/37 Skype: elico.corp eric.cau...@elico-corp.com http://www.elico-corp.com ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community Post to : openerp-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
