Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
I would say OmniOS fits better. 2014-12-26 13:10 GMT+01:00 Dmitry Kozhinov d...@desktopfay.com: I believe you've just described Tribblix Thank you, maybe I need to look closer at Tribblix, indeed. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
26 декабря 2014 г. 13:24:45 CET, Dmitry Kozhinov d...@desktopfay.com пишет: For example i'm not using GUI but i have some difficulties with administering from command lines (very hard to configure vlan, network interfaces and so on). Look, even experienced UNIX admin has difficulties with command line (not to offend anyone). Force me to edit config files with vi instead of gedit, and I will go looking for a different job. I believe that new generation of system administrators cannot afford spending half of their lives learning that command line magic spells. This is why OI is popular, and Illumian is not. This is why Linux is popular (it would not if had no GUI at all). And this is why Oracle Solaris has GUI. I understand that there are headless servers and datacenters, but this is different topic. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss Use midnight commander editor then ;) Text mode (x11 terminal interaction supported, but not required) and reasonably intuitive interface ;) As for X11 on the server, remember that in terms of resources it eats precious ram (well maybe not so precious in modern machines), and in terms of security it is an additional attack surface. It makes sense to start it, if needed, on a need-to-use basis and then turn off. For me X, especially with vnc, is primarily a way to run many terminals on one display and not lose terminal sessions and whatever diagnostic loops might be running there when i am breaking the network settings, or working remotely and with long-running tasks which i don't want to lose when ssh or vpn breaks, or when my laptop goes to sleep as i ride home while the server keeps doing some work, etc. Though this year i became more of a full-time desktop hipster user (programming and browsing with a gui ide at work), so yes it is useful quite a bit ;) -- Typos courtesy of K-9 Mail on my Samsung Android ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
On 12/26/2014 12:31, Nikola M. wrote: Also I don't count as package available for OI if it is not made and available for /dev . That made me wondering : how newer packages without incorporations restraints are expected to behave well on older unupdated rolling-release installations.. Using newer packages on older non-updated rolling-release model distribution, without prior testing, could lead to breakages in compatibility and application behaviour. Package requirements specify the versions which are required to install and use this package. (and releasing changes in distribution must be done with testing of distribution as a whole and is a base of _supportable_ product) That leads to other questions : Why keep pushing OI Hipster as rolling release, not planning to have stable release? Because there's noone interested in *making* stable OI release. And also why planning to break binary compatibility (and thus even get lower application count without applications made for Solaris 10) and not having workaround for it in current distro? If I understand it correctly we were the only illumos distribution which delivered Studio-compiled C++ libraries. Now we deliver only G++-compiled C++ libraries. Anyone interested in binary compatibility with Solaris 10 are advised to use Solaris 10 branded zones. Nonetheless, breakage concerns only C++ applications. Why not updating /dev instead ,and maintaining package dependencies via upgrading incorporations? Hipster started by updating from /dev. Why then not continuing /dev and why disabling (e.g. not caring/enabling) updating from /dev ? I guess those are philosophical differences between having stable distribution and rolling release forever. 1) IMHO, /dev is outdated and has a terrible build process. I think that if someone cares about /dev good starting point would be porting some applications (e.g. openjdk, updated PostgreSQL, Percona Server, nginx, what else...) from oi-userland to oi-build. But I don't care about /dev. 2) We have no power to create stable distribution, either based on /dev or /hipster. Period. If someone is interested in making /stable from /hipster, I'll help. But I'm not going to start doing it myself, as it's impossible for one man. -- Best regards, Alexander Pyhalov, system administrator of Southern Federal University IT department ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
noone interested in *making* stable OI release. - admits OI developer. Oracle rubs his hands with a satisfied grin. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
On 12/26/14 12:05 PM, Dmitry Kozhinov wrote: noone interested in *making* stable OI release. - admits OI developer. Oracle rubs his hands with a satisfied grin. It's not relevant because one can not compare open source and free software with proprietary one. Those are just 2 different worlds that live side by side. Surely in big picture open source is always winning. Not to mention you can also help to projects you want. And with closed source user can only cry, pay and cry more. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
We have no power to create stable distribution, either based on /dev or /hipster. Period. I hate to give an advice without contributing into development, but here it is. IMHO the all-in-one product is too complicated. The best approach would be starting over from scratch (bare Illumos) and create a minimalistic distribution with basic GUI and basic GUI server admin tools (network management, package management, services start/stop, firewall management, etc.). Of course this is not a proposed roadmap for OI, this is an idea for a new project. Absolutely obvious idea, nothing new. There is the Illumian distribution, which follows this approach. But it lacks GUI - the key component - and this is why it did not gain popularity (hope Garrett D'Amore reads this). Add basic GUI and GUI server admin tools - and I don't need OI anymore. Happy holidays to everyone! Dmitry. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
- admits OI developer. Oracle rubs his hands with a satisfied grin. I still remember that a couple of years ago I tried to install Oracle Solaris on an old laptop and the installer reported that the system had 60 or more CPUs... The truth is that only when Solaris became OpenSolaris only then there was a wide adoption and new things came into the play. A.S. -- Apostolos Syropoulos Xanthi, Greece ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
It's not relevant because one can not compare open source and free software with proprietary one. Those are just 2 different worlds that live side by side. Surely in big picture open source is always winning. Not to mention you can also help to projects you want. And with closed source user can only cry, pay and cry more. I am already crying with *open source* distribution, as all I need is a *stable* OI release. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
On 27/12/14 00:40, Dmitry Kozhinov wrote: I hate to give an advice without contributing into development, but here it is. That remains the number one problem and there is a glut of too many folks without the know-how continually telling other people what to do. Alasdair Lumsden's post of October remains pertinent: (http://openindiana.org/pipermail/oi-dev/2014-October/003419.html) IMHO the all-in-one product is too complicated. The best approach would be starting over from scratch (bare Illumos) and create a minimalistic distribution with basic GUI and basic GUI server admin tools (network management, package management, services start/stop, firewall management, etc.)... Add basic GUI and GUI server admin tools - and I don't need OI anymore. I believe you've just described Tribblix: http://www.tribblix.org/about.html -- Dave Koelmeyer http://blog.davekoelmeyer.co.nz ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
Hmmm...redhat compared. rhel is proprietary - fedora open source. you can watch movie default to open to see how they solved problem of comparing poprietary and open source software. 26.12.2014 20:30, Nikola M. пишет: On 12/26/14 12:05 PM, Dmitry Kozhinov wrote: noone interested in *making* stable OI release. - admits OI developer. Oracle rubs his hands with a satisfied grin. It's not relevant because one can not compare open source and free software with proprietary one. Those are just 2 different worlds that live side by side. Surely in big picture open source is always winning. Not to mention you can also help to projects you want. And with closed source user can only cry, pay and cry more. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
GUI for server? I think better way is make easier administrating from command line. Most of system administrator wont use GUI. For example i'm not using GUI but i have some difficulties with administering from command lines (very hard to configure vlan, network interfaces and so on). 26.12.2014 20:40, Dmitry Kozhinov пишет: We have no power to create stable distribution, either based on /dev or /hipster. Period. I hate to give an advice without contributing into development, but here it is. IMHO the all-in-one product is too complicated. The best approach would be starting over from scratch (bare Illumos) and create a minimalistic distribution with basic GUI and basic GUI server admin tools (network management, package management, services start/stop, firewall management, etc.). Of course this is not a proposed roadmap for OI, this is an idea for a new project. Absolutely obvious idea, nothing new. There is the Illumian distribution, which follows this approach. But it lacks GUI - the key component - and this is why it did not gain popularity (hope Garrett D'Amore reads this). Add basic GUI and GUI server admin tools - and I don't need OI anymore. Happy holidays to everyone! Dmitry. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
I believe you've just described Tribblix Thank you, maybe I need to look closer at Tribblix, indeed. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
For example i'm not using GUI but i have some difficulties with administering from command lines (very hard to configure vlan, network interfaces and so on). Look, even experienced UNIX admin has difficulties with command line (not to offend anyone). Force me to edit config files with vi instead of gedit, and I will go looking for a different job. I believe that new generation of system administrators cannot afford spending half of their lives learning that command line magic spells. This is why OI is popular, and Illumian is not. This is why Linux is popular (it would not if had no GUI at all). And this is why Oracle Solaris has GUI. I understand that there are headless servers and datacenters, but this is different topic. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
Oh! I didnt thought that headless servers is a different topic. The server is a server and there is no need to use gui for server because gui uses more resources than server have to. But if this topic about desktop workstations then i mistaked. Sorry. 26.12.2014 21:24, Dmitry Kozhinov пишет: For example i'm not using GUI but i have some difficulties with administering from command lines (very hard to configure vlan, network interfaces and so on). Look, even experienced UNIX admin has difficulties with command line (not to offend anyone). Force me to edit config files with vi instead of gedit, and I will go looking for a different job. I believe that new generation of system administrators cannot afford spending half of their lives learning that command line magic spells. This is why OI is popular, and Illumian is not. This is why Linux is popular (it would not if had no GUI at all). And this is why Oracle Solaris has GUI. I understand that there are headless servers and datacenters, but this is different topic. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
Let me again cite Alexander Pyhalov, one of the leading OI developers currently (as far I know), and please think what should we do instead of starting discussions like [open source vs closed source], [GUI vs no GUI], and [can non-contributing forum member say anything vs cannot]: noone interested in *making* stable OI release. We have no power to create stable distribution, either based on /dev or /hipster. Period. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
gui uses more resources than server have to Server admin should use less human resources, not a machine. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
Короче судя по имени ты рубишь в русском языке. Вообщем зачем ресурсы сервера растрачивать на графический интерфейс если можно обойтись без него (на что unix-like системы и рассчитаны изначально)? Надо просто упростить управление с терминала. Я впервые юзаю openindiana и хотя у довольно уверенный админ centos и freebsd (archlinux и ubuntu в качестве десктопа) но у меня возникают трудности с администрированием с консоли в частности с настройкой vlan и сетевых интерфейсов. Остальное думаю переживу. А так конечно удивлен стабильностью его работы. Висит у меня на нем svn на zfs. Проблема только с ntfs-3g. 26.12.2014 21:24, Dmitry Kozhinov пишет: For example i'm not using GUI but i have some difficulties with administering from command lines (very hard to configure vlan, network interfaces and so on). Look, even experienced UNIX admin has difficulties with command line (not to offend anyone). Force me to edit config files with vi instead of gedit, and I will go looking for a different job. I believe that new generation of system administrators cannot afford spending half of their lives learning that command line magic spells. This is why OI is popular, and Illumian is not. This is why Linux is popular (it would not if had no GUI at all). And this is why Oracle Solaris has GUI. I understand that there are headless servers and datacenters, but this is different topic. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
And i think admin have to balance between human resources and machine resources. If IT have not economic effective than why they need company? Im trying to say that if operating system will be more usable (effectivly from command line) than more IT specialist will use this operationg system. And question is not about how many administrators will be use it. The question is how many peple will use it and when project will die?. Open source not for system administrators only. 26.12.2014 21:40, Dmitry Kozhinov пишет: gui uses more resources than server have to Server admin should use less human resources, not a machine. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
Just to interject my own feelings... If it weren't for OI then I would have left OpenSolaris a long time ago. I applaud the work done and understand the ongoing pain that moving towards a goal with so few people takes. In a SOHO environment, one machine does a lot of work, including building and testing GUI applications. We don't develop products for [Open]Solaris anymore but you can't believe how powerful testing on different architectures helps find hidden flaws. Our server side runs on Linux, but our clients (both GUI and command line) run on Windows, Linux, and Mac OS/X. We run regressions on various flavors of these plus OpenIndiana. It's amazing how many bad things Linux suppresses that surfaces under OpenIndiana. As we move from Sun libraries to Gnu libraries this may be less important, but I still see a value in doing this for our products. We currently use hipster and it's instability has never been a big problem for us as we upgrade and test. If we see something important has gone awry, we report it and roll back. Are there things that we feel are lacking? Absolutely but we work around them. When things break of are deprecated we install replacements. For us, not supporting DHCPv6 PD is a drawback since this is the method our ISP uses to give us a block of IPV6 addresses. I built the ISC dhcp server but I couldn't figure how to integrate it into illumos so it functioned correctly, so I resorted to a 4-to-6 tunnel using Hurricane Electric. The good side was that I was able to put the ISC dhcp client into poi-userland before the sun dhcp meltdown. I contribute the little I can but find my sore spots don't jive with most of the illumos community, however OpenIndiana is fairly close. I don't need an overblown window management system and I long for the days when the whole X11 infrastructure (including WM) only took about 12Megs overhead to run on the Sparc IPC (xfwm). Tribblix is an alternative, but I haven't bought into Peter's vision yet as it is still a moving target. I consider it as stable as hipster so there is no impetus to jump ship. I just jumped in to make it known that there are some people that really appreciate the work going into hipster. Gary On 12/26/2014 07:47 AM, Евгений Парфенов wrote: And i think admin have to balance between human resources and machine resources. If IT have not economic effective than why they need company? Im trying to say that if operating system will be more usable (effectivly from command line) than more IT specialist will use this operationg system. And question is not about how many administrators will be use it. The question is how many peple will use it and when project will die?. Open source not for system administrators only. 26.12.2014 21:40, Dmitry Kozhinov пишет: gui uses more resources than server have to Server admin should use less human resources, not a machine. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
I dont mean that linux steeper than linux I just want to say that oi is more difficult in the assimilation and its not cool 26.12.2014 22:28, Gary Gendel пишет: Just to interject my own feelings... If it weren't for OI then I would have left OpenSolaris a long time ago. I applaud the work done and understand the ongoing pain that moving towards a goal with so few people takes. In a SOHO environment, one machine does a lot of work, including building and testing GUI applications. We don't develop products for [Open]Solaris anymore but you can't believe how powerful testing on different architectures helps find hidden flaws. Our server side runs on Linux, but our clients (both GUI and command line) run on Windows, Linux, and Mac OS/X. We run regressions on various flavors of these plus OpenIndiana. It's amazing how many bad things Linux suppresses that surfaces under OpenIndiana. As we move from Sun libraries to Gnu libraries this may be less important, but I still see a value in doing this for our products. We currently use hipster and it's instability has never been a big problem for us as we upgrade and test. If we see something important has gone awry, we report it and roll back. Are there things that we feel are lacking? Absolutely but we work around them. When things break of are deprecated we install replacements. For us, not supporting DHCPv6 PD is a drawback since this is the method our ISP uses to give us a block of IPV6 addresses. I built the ISC dhcp server but I couldn't figure how to integrate it into illumos so it functioned correctly, so I resorted to a 4-to-6 tunnel using Hurricane Electric. The good side was that I was able to put the ISC dhcp client into poi-userland before the sun dhcp meltdown. I contribute the little I can but find my sore spots don't jive with most of the illumos community, however OpenIndiana is fairly close. I don't need an overblown window management system and I long for the days when the whole X11 infrastructure (including WM) only took about 12Megs overhead to run on the Sparc IPC (xfwm). Tribblix is an alternative, but I haven't bought into Peter's vision yet as it is still a moving target. I consider it as stable as hipster so there is no impetus to jump ship. I just jumped in to make it known that there are some people that really appreciate the work going into hipster. Gary On 12/26/2014 07:47 AM, Евгений Парфенов wrote: And i think admin have to balance between human resources and machine resources. If IT have not economic effective than why they need company? Im trying to say that if operating system will be more usable (effectivly from command line) than more IT specialist will use this operationg system. And question is not about how many administrators will be use it. The question is how many peple will use it and when project will die?. Open source not for system administrators only. 26.12.2014 21:40, Dmitry Kozhinov пишет: gui uses more resources than server have to Server admin should use less human resources, not a machine. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
On 12/26/14 02:28 PM, Gary Gendel wrote: Are there things that we feel are lacking? Absolutely but we work around them. When things break of are deprecated we install replacements. For us, not supporting DHCPv6 PD is a drawback since this is the method our ISP uses to give us a block of IPV6 addresses. I built the ISC dhcp server but I couldn't figure how to integrate it into illumos so it functioned correctly, so I resorted to a 4-to-6 tunnel using Hurricane Electric. The good side was that I was able to put the ISC dhcp client into poi-userland before the sun dhcp meltdown. I hope you continue to report bugs like this , feature requests etc. Because after all, it is what people in the field are telling they need - is moving things further. If all things that are needed to be done are listed , then fixes could be prioritized. And not making something that people using it did not want, but exactly what users need. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Chm viewer, xchm and Hipster
On 12/26/14 01:03 PM, Евгений Парфенов wrote: GUI for server? I think better way is make easier administrating from command line. Most of system administrator wont use GUI. For example i'm not using GUI but i have some difficulties with administering from command lines (very hard to configure vlan, network interfaces and so on). As mentioned, GUI on server is very important and it is mainly for smaller deployments or smaller companies where OI could be big. After all one can simply disable gdm service and not make fuss if not needing GUI. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
