Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
Hi Jordan, Thanks a lot for sharing that process with me. I appreciate it. I've made my proposal at http://wiki.openstack.org/Governance/Proposed/QuestionAndAnswerSoftware Everett On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 8:17 PM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: The replacement of Launchpad Questions hasn't been fully discussed. If people want OSQnA to replace that functionality it needs to be proposed for the next PPB meeting ( http://wiki.openstack.org/Governance/Proposed/ ) and discussed on list (Although to me it seems fairly evident that it is desired). AFAIK that is the course of action needed to get that either implemented as a replacement or as an add-on. Whatever the questions software is the forums will maintain a sticky pointing to it (or both etc.). (I just learned how all that workd properly ;) -Original Message- From: Everett Toews everett.to...@cybera.ca Sent: Saturday, May 7, 2011 10:06pm To: Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org Cc: Chad Keck c...@chadkeck.com, Stephen Spector stephen.spec...@openstack.org, openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Okay...so I at least have to ask. Where exactly does that leave the evaluation and potential use of QnA software? Will there be a qa.openstack.org? The meeting logs for the PPB ( http://wiki.openstack.org/Governance/PPB/PPBMeetingLogs) haven't been posted yet so it isn't clear. I would be willing to host a OSQA site for evaluation purposes. One thing to keep in mind for after the evaluation process. The users for the OpenStack.org wiki and any forum/QnA software should be synced so people don't need 3 username/passwords when trying to get help. I confess it's tempting to just let this drop but there are enough people on the ML who want this warrant pursuing it. Everett On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: Forums (forums.openstack.org) have just been approved by the PPB. Delegation on working with the community to get consensus on selecting a software for them is to Chad Keck, Myself and Stephen Spector. I should note that based on what I read it appears Forums AND Questions seem to be the answer to the forums debate with a sticky on the forums pointing to whatever the QA software is to funnel specific questions to a questions facility but also to allow general discussion on the forums. Right now, I personally am only focusing on the forums/discussion portion since that was the only portion specifically voted on that I am aware of. If you have a suggestion for forum software please provide it and I will get demos of every one recommended up and we can put the software to a vote for the official forums. -Original Message- From: Chad Keck c...@chadkeck.com Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2011 3:59pm To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum I was about to say ;) My unofficial forums aren't THAT ugly! -- Chad On May 5, 2011, at 2:15 PM, Anne Gentle wrote: Oh and I use ugly in quotation marks to indicate that's completely subjective. No judgment from me! I only believe data. :) I didn't want to use inflammatory word choices here, sorry. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Anne Gentle a...@openstack.org wrote: We're still so small it's very reasonable for all members of the community to want to have some say here. Plus there's a lotta overlap in these two groups, dev and SA. :) - we're highly interested in defending OpenStack as a brand and as such, don't see value in ugly unofficial forums - we want to participate but only if it's a tool we like and feel we've given input into - we don't want to further dilute the resources we have with yet another login-based website - we somehow tied it into the Launchpad/Github debate as Launchpad Answers is one solution to the types of problems that a forum solves I think a clearer restatement of the end-goals of forums would be helpful. Here are some ideas. Please offer your input as well. 1. Efficiency and reduce confusion: Offer one place to ask and answer questions. 2. Efficiency and reduce confusion: Decrease user-question-type traffic on #openstack IRC. 3. Reciprocity: Offer a place to help others expecting help in return. 4. Reputation: Offer a method for proving your knowledge of OpenStack. 5. Efficiency and reduce confusion: Eliminate the scattering of places where you can ask and answer questions now: docs.openstack.org comments, Launchpad Answers, and IRC. Adding a forum without eliminating at least one other of these options does not seem efficient without proving the gains you expect to see. We have to keep monitoring all sites including Twitter for questions, yet Twitter in itself does not provide a tool for a community support site. Since docs provide support and also an opportunity for QA I'm pretty
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
All: Note that the proposed OpenStack Stack Exchange site was rejected as being too close to the existing Server Fault site: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/31788/openstack Lorin -- Lorin Hochstein, Computer Scientist USC Information Sciences Institute 703.812.3710 http://www.east.isi.edu/~lorin On May 8, 2011, at 1:40 PM, Everett Toews wrote: Hi Jordan, Thanks a lot for sharing that process with me. I appreciate it. I've made my proposal at http://wiki.openstack.org/Governance/Proposed/QuestionAndAnswerSoftware Everett On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 8:17 PM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: The replacement of Launchpad Questions hasn't been fully discussed. If people want OSQnA to replace that functionality it needs to be proposed for the next PPB meeting ( http://wiki.openstack.org/Governance/Proposed/ ) and discussed on list (Although to me it seems fairly evident that it is desired). AFAIK that is the course of action needed to get that either implemented as a replacement or as an add-on. Whatever the questions software is the forums will maintain a sticky pointing to it (or both etc.). (I just learned how all that workd properly ;) -Original Message- From: Everett Toews everett.to...@cybera.ca Sent: Saturday, May 7, 2011 10:06pm To: Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org Cc: Chad Keck c...@chadkeck.com, Stephen Spector stephen.spec...@openstack.org, openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Okay...so I at least have to ask. Where exactly does that leave the evaluation and potential use of QnA software? Will there be a qa.openstack.org? The meeting logs for the PPB ( http://wiki.openstack.org/Governance/PPB/PPBMeetingLogs) haven't been posted yet so it isn't clear. I would be willing to host a OSQA site for evaluation purposes. One thing to keep in mind for after the evaluation process. The users for the OpenStack.org wiki and any forum/QnA software should be synced so people don't need 3 username/passwords when trying to get help. I confess it's tempting to just let this drop but there are enough people on the ML who want this warrant pursuing it. Everett On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: Forums (forums.openstack.org) have just been approved by the PPB. Delegation on working with the community to get consensus on selecting a software for them is to Chad Keck, Myself and Stephen Spector. I should note that based on what I read it appears Forums AND Questions seem to be the answer to the forums debate with a sticky on the forums pointing to whatever the QA software is to funnel specific questions to a questions facility but also to allow general discussion on the forums. Right now, I personally am only focusing on the forums/discussion portion since that was the only portion specifically voted on that I am aware of. If you have a suggestion for forum software please provide it and I will get demos of every one recommended up and we can put the software to a vote for the official forums. -Original Message- From: Chad Keck c...@chadkeck.com Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2011 3:59pm To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum I was about to say ;) My unofficial forums aren't THAT ugly! -- Chad On May 5, 2011, at 2:15 PM, Anne Gentle wrote: Oh and I use ugly in quotation marks to indicate that's completely subjective. No judgment from me! I only believe data. :) I didn't want to use inflammatory word choices here, sorry. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Anne Gentle a...@openstack.org wrote: We're still so small it's very reasonable for all members of the community to want to have some say here. Plus there's a lotta overlap in these two groups, dev and SA. :) - we're highly interested in defending OpenStack as a brand and as such, don't see value in ugly unofficial forums - we want to participate but only if it's a tool we like and feel we've given input into - we don't want to further dilute the resources we have with yet another login-based website - we somehow tied it into the Launchpad/Github debate as Launchpad Answers is one solution to the types of problems that a forum solves I think a clearer restatement of the end-goals of forums would be helpful. Here are some ideas. Please offer your input as well. 1. Efficiency and reduce confusion: Offer one place to ask and answer questions. 2. Efficiency and reduce confusion: Decrease user-question-type traffic on #openstack IRC. 3. Reciprocity: Offer a place to help others expecting help in return. 4. Reputation: Offer a method for proving your knowledge of OpenStack. 5. Efficiency and reduce confusion: Eliminate the scattering of places where you can ask and answer questions now: docs.openstack.org comments, Launchpad Answers, and IRC
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
Okay...so I at least have to ask. Where exactly does that leave the evaluation and potential use of QnA software? Will there be a qa.openstack.org? The meeting logs for the PPB ( http://wiki.openstack.org/Governance/PPB/PPBMeetingLogs) haven't been posted yet so it isn't clear. I would be willing to host a OSQA site for evaluation purposes. One thing to keep in mind for after the evaluation process. The users for the OpenStack.org wiki and any forum/QnA software should be synced so people don't need 3 username/passwords when trying to get help. I confess it's tempting to just let this drop but there are enough people on the ML who want this warrant pursuing it. Everett On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: Forums (forums.openstack.org) have just been approved by the PPB. Delegation on working with the community to get consensus on selecting a software for them is to Chad Keck, Myself and Stephen Spector. I should note that based on what I read it appears Forums AND Questions seem to be the answer to the forums debate with a sticky on the forums pointing to whatever the QA software is to funnel specific questions to a questions facility but also to allow general discussion on the forums. Right now, I personally am only focusing on the forums/discussion portion since that was the only portion specifically voted on that I am aware of. If you have a suggestion for forum software please provide it and I will get demos of every one recommended up and we can put the software to a vote for the official forums. -Original Message- From: Chad Keck c...@chadkeck.com Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2011 3:59pm To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum I was about to say ;) My unofficial forums aren't THAT ugly! -- Chad On May 5, 2011, at 2:15 PM, Anne Gentle wrote: Oh and I use ugly in quotation marks to indicate that's completely subjective. No judgment from me! I only believe data. :) I didn't want to use inflammatory word choices here, sorry. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Anne Gentle a...@openstack.org wrote: We're still so small it's very reasonable for all members of the community to want to have some say here. Plus there's a lotta overlap in these two groups, dev and SA. :) - we're highly interested in defending OpenStack as a brand and as such, don't see value in ugly unofficial forums - we want to participate but only if it's a tool we like and feel we've given input into - we don't want to further dilute the resources we have with yet another login-based website - we somehow tied it into the Launchpad/Github debate as Launchpad Answers is one solution to the types of problems that a forum solves I think a clearer restatement of the end-goals of forums would be helpful. Here are some ideas. Please offer your input as well. 1. Efficiency and reduce confusion: Offer one place to ask and answer questions. 2. Efficiency and reduce confusion: Decrease user-question-type traffic on #openstack IRC. 3. Reciprocity: Offer a place to help others expecting help in return. 4. Reputation: Offer a method for proving your knowledge of OpenStack. 5. Efficiency and reduce confusion: Eliminate the scattering of places where you can ask and answer questions now: docs.openstack.org comments, Launchpad Answers, and IRC. Adding a forum without eliminating at least one other of these options does not seem efficient without proving the gains you expect to see. We have to keep monitoring all sites including Twitter for questions, yet Twitter in itself does not provide a tool for a community support site. Since docs provide support and also an opportunity for QA I'm pretty vested in the solution as well. I'd prefer we find a way to integrate with a site that could become a community support site, not just a forum. I think that distinction is at the heart of this discussion. Does that help? Anne On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:06 PM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: I don't see why developers are weighing in so heavily on something specifically for the user community? Many of you have specifically said you wouldn't visit a forum so why do you care so much about what software it uses, or if it even exists? -Original Message- From: Chad Keck c...@chadkeck.com Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2011 12:55pm To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum What does it matter what the forum looks like? If you are implying that forums are largely unpopular today because of StackOverflow you would be wrong. Of course StackOverflow is popular, for some, and it works great for a specific type of community. Maybe someone should clearly articulate what problem we are trying to solve here. If it's direct QA then a StackOverflow style site is probably better, if its a place for conversation, exchange of ideas
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
The replacement of Launchpad Questions hasn't been fully discussed. If people want OSQnA to replace that functionality it needs to be proposed for the next PPB meeting ( http://wiki.openstack.org/Governance/Proposed/ ) and discussed on list (Although to me it seems fairly evident that it is desired). AFAIK that is the course of action needed to get that either implemented as a replacement or as an add-on. Whatever the questions software is the forums will maintain a sticky pointing to it (or both etc.). (I just learned how all that workd properly ;) -Original Message- From: Everett Toews everett.to...@cybera.ca Sent: Saturday, May 7, 2011 10:06pm To: Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org Cc: Chad Keck c...@chadkeck.com, Stephen Spector stephen.spec...@openstack.org, openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Okay...so I at least have to ask. Where exactly does that leave the evaluation and potential use of QnA software? Will there be a qa.openstack.org? The meeting logs for the PPB ( http://wiki.openstack.org/Governance/PPB/PPBMeetingLogs) haven't been posted yet so it isn't clear. I would be willing to host a OSQA site for evaluation purposes. One thing to keep in mind for after the evaluation process. The users for the OpenStack.org wiki and any forum/QnA software should be synced so people don't need 3 username/passwords when trying to get help. I confess it's tempting to just let this drop but there are enough people on the ML who want this warrant pursuing it. Everett On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: Forums (forums.openstack.org) have just been approved by the PPB. Delegation on working with the community to get consensus on selecting a software for them is to Chad Keck, Myself and Stephen Spector. I should note that based on what I read it appears Forums AND Questions seem to be the answer to the forums debate with a sticky on the forums pointing to whatever the QA software is to funnel specific questions to a questions facility but also to allow general discussion on the forums. Right now, I personally am only focusing on the forums/discussion portion since that was the only portion specifically voted on that I am aware of. If you have a suggestion for forum software please provide it and I will get demos of every one recommended up and we can put the software to a vote for the official forums. -Original Message- From: Chad Keck c...@chadkeck.com Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2011 3:59pm To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum I was about to say ;) My unofficial forums aren't THAT ugly! -- Chad On May 5, 2011, at 2:15 PM, Anne Gentle wrote: Oh and I use ugly in quotation marks to indicate that's completely subjective. No judgment from me! I only believe data. :) I didn't want to use inflammatory word choices here, sorry. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Anne Gentle a...@openstack.org wrote: We're still so small it's very reasonable for all members of the community to want to have some say here. Plus there's a lotta overlap in these two groups, dev and SA. :) - we're highly interested in defending OpenStack as a brand and as such, don't see value in ugly unofficial forums - we want to participate but only if it's a tool we like and feel we've given input into - we don't want to further dilute the resources we have with yet another login-based website - we somehow tied it into the Launchpad/Github debate as Launchpad Answers is one solution to the types of problems that a forum solves I think a clearer restatement of the end-goals of forums would be helpful. Here are some ideas. Please offer your input as well. 1. Efficiency and reduce confusion: Offer one place to ask and answer questions. 2. Efficiency and reduce confusion: Decrease user-question-type traffic on #openstack IRC. 3. Reciprocity: Offer a place to help others expecting help in return. 4. Reputation: Offer a method for proving your knowledge of OpenStack. 5. Efficiency and reduce confusion: Eliminate the scattering of places where you can ask and answer questions now: docs.openstack.org comments, Launchpad Answers, and IRC. Adding a forum without eliminating at least one other of these options does not seem efficient without proving the gains you expect to see. We have to keep monitoring all sites including Twitter for questions, yet Twitter in itself does not provide a tool for a community support site. Since docs provide support and also an opportunity for QA I'm pretty vested in the solution as well. I'd prefer we find a way to integrate with a site that could become a community support site, not just a forum. I think that distinction is at the heart of this discussion. Does that help? Anne On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:06 PM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: I don't see why developers are weighing
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
Thanks Jeff. It looks like it supports the basic functionality of a typical forum based application and includes a very nice modern jQuerry based UI. The user reputation system is configurable and is based on both posts and karma. One of more interesting features is the ability to import RSS feeds into the forums. We could potentially use that feature to give more exposure to the wiki pages (by adding RSS to moinmoin) and possibly to the mailing lists via a mailing list to rss feed. Depending on how we decide to use it a xenforo based site could allow us to create a central location for OpenStack content creation notification as well as for discussions and general Q and A. I put up a simple OpenStack oriented forum demo at: http://demo.xenforo.com/?d=5910ae747bda1172 Feel free to login as admin and poke around (admin/admin). That said, vBulletin is more mature and hence feature rich and their new publishing suite has some very nice features. Once we get past the software selection process taxonomy is the next topic we should discuss. Kevin ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
On May 4, 2011, at 10:44 PM, Chad Keck wrote: How about this... www.stackertalk.com Since I'm not a developer I'd like to contribute in some form or another :) There is a lot more refinement that needs to go into the site but I'm happy to run this forum. If anyone would like to help moderate/administer please let me know. -1 This looks like every other run-of-the-mill forum circa 1999. The reason StackOverflow is so popular is largely a reaction to fora like this. -- Ed Leafe Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message (including any attached or embedded documents) is intended for the exclusive and confidential use of the individual or entity to which this message is addressed, and unless otherwise expressly indicated, is confidential and privileged information of Rackspace. Any dissemination, distribution or copying of the enclosed material is prohibited. If you receive this transmission in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail at ab...@rackspace.com, and delete the original message. Your cooperation is appreciated. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:51 PM, Ed Leafe ed.le...@rackspace.com wrote: On May 5, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote: I don't see why developers are weighing in so heavily on something specifically for the user community? Many of you have specifically said you wouldn't visit a forum so why do you care so much about what software it uses, or if it even exists? I can't speak for others, but I'm not 1-dimensional. The feedback I got at the Summit from individuals and groups trying to deploy multiple server environment (dozens of servers) is lacking with more information and help is requested. I don't think there are a lot of individual developers, without access to large company resources, that are going to stand up/maintain environments of this size and do operational testing. There is a growing number of people/organizations that want this type of information whether it is delivered in a forum, stackexchange, irc or email list. I don't think the medium is as important as just getting it to them in a clear,concise and searchable manner. While I may be a nova developer, and a dev on a few other projects, I'm a user on a much greater number of projects, and have a good idea of what has worked and not worked for me as a user. I've also gotten feedback from my users on projects I run, and together this experience has formed my opinions. There is a big difference between helping a developer get an single server environment up for developing and a company that is deploying dozens of servers for an on going production environment. As for why I might care, just because some have said they wouldn't visit doesn't mean that no developer will visit. My guess is that a great many will want to, and that number will depend on the form such a forum might take. I also care what the user experience is for a newcomer to the OpenStack community; like other developers, I have a lot of my own work invested in the project, and want it to succeed. I think everyone in this list and especially on this thread cares a great deal about the OpenStack project, the community and the users. It's not necessary to say it. -- Ed Leafe Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message (including any attached or embedded documents) is intended for the exclusive and confidential use of the individual or entity to which this message is addressed, and unless otherwise expressly indicated, is confidential and privileged information of Rackspace. Any dissemination, distribution or copying of the enclosed material is prohibited. If you receive this transmission in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail at ab...@rackspace.com, and delete the original message. Your cooperation is appreciated. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
Forums (forums.openstack.org) have just been approved by the PPB. Delegation on working with the community to get consensus on selecting a software for them is to Chad Keck, Myself and Stephen Spector. I should note that based on what I read it appears Forums AND Questions seem to be the answer to the forums debate with a sticky on the forums pointing to whatever the QA software is to funnel specific questions to a questions facility but also to allow general discussion on the forums. Right now, I personally am only focusing on the forums/discussion portion since that was the only portion specifically voted on that I am aware of. If you have a suggestion for forum software please provide it and I will get demos of every one recommended up and we can put the software to a vote for the official forums. -Original Message- From: Chad Keck c...@chadkeck.com Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2011 3:59pm To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum I was about to say ;) My unofficial forums aren't THAT ugly! -- Chad On May 5, 2011, at 2:15 PM, Anne Gentle wrote: Oh and I use ugly in quotation marks to indicate that's completely subjective. No judgment from me! I only believe data. :) I didn't want to use inflammatory word choices here, sorry. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Anne Gentle a...@openstack.org wrote: We're still so small it's very reasonable for all members of the community to want to have some say here. Plus there's a lotta overlap in these two groups, dev and SA. :) - we're highly interested in defending OpenStack as a brand and as such, don't see value in ugly unofficial forums - we want to participate but only if it's a tool we like and feel we've given input into - we don't want to further dilute the resources we have with yet another login-based website - we somehow tied it into the Launchpad/Github debate as Launchpad Answers is one solution to the types of problems that a forum solves I think a clearer restatement of the end-goals of forums would be helpful. Here are some ideas. Please offer your input as well. 1. Efficiency and reduce confusion: Offer one place to ask and answer questions. 2. Efficiency and reduce confusion: Decrease user-question-type traffic on #openstack IRC. 3. Reciprocity: Offer a place to help others expecting help in return. 4. Reputation: Offer a method for proving your knowledge of OpenStack. 5. Efficiency and reduce confusion: Eliminate the scattering of places where you can ask and answer questions now: docs.openstack.org comments, Launchpad Answers, and IRC. Adding a forum without eliminating at least one other of these options does not seem efficient without proving the gains you expect to see. We have to keep monitoring all sites including Twitter for questions, yet Twitter in itself does not provide a tool for a community support site. Since docs provide support and also an opportunity for QA I'm pretty vested in the solution as well. I'd prefer we find a way to integrate with a site that could become a community support site, not just a forum. I think that distinction is at the heart of this discussion. Does that help? Anne On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:06 PM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: I don't see why developers are weighing in so heavily on something specifically for the user community? Many of you have specifically said you wouldn't visit a forum so why do you care so much about what software it uses, or if it even exists? -Original Message- From: Chad Keck c...@chadkeck.com Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2011 12:55pm To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum What does it matter what the forum looks like? If you are implying that forums are largely unpopular today because of StackOverflow you would be wrong. Of course StackOverflow is popular, for some, and it works great for a specific type of community. Maybe someone should clearly articulate what problem we are trying to solve here. If it's direct QA then a StackOverflow style site is probably better, if its a place for conversation, exchange of ideas or asking indirect questions I think traditional forums are better, IMHO. -- Chad On May 5, 2011, at 11:21 AM, Ed Leafe wrote: On May 4, 2011, at 10:44 PM, Chad Keck wrote: How about this... www.stackertalk.com Since I'm not a developer I'd like to contribute in some form or another :) There is a lot more refinement that needs to go into the site but I'm happy to run this forum. If anyone would like to help moderate/administer please let me know. -1 This looks like every other run-of-the-mill forum circa 1999. The reason StackOverflow is so popular is largely a reaction to fora like this. -- Ed Leafe Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message (including any attached or embedded
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
The best, which is relative, and one of the most widely used forum apps is vbulletin http://www.vbulletin.com/. It's commercial, but inexpensive ($195.00 US). Their new CMS product ($295 US) also looks interesting. In addition to all of the standard vbulletin forum functionality we could provide community members with blog space for articles. It allows for tagging, cross posting from forums to docs and blogs, etc. I don't have any experience with the app but it could be an interesting Open Stack social experiment. Kevin On Thu, 5 May 2011, Jordan Rinke wrote: Forums (forums.openstack.org) have just been approved by the PPB. Delegation on working with the community to get consensus on selecting a software for them is to Chad Keck, Myself and Stephen Spector. I should note that based on what I read it appears Forums AND Questions seem to be the answer to the forums debate with a sticky on the forums pointing to whatever the QA software is to funnel specific questions to a questions facility but also to allow general discussion on the forums. Right now, I personally am only focusing on the forums/discussion portion since that was the only portion specifically voted on that I am aware of. If you have a suggestion for forum software please provide it and I will get demos of every one recommended up and we can put the software to a vote for the official forums. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
vBulletin has a lot of add-ons and is a tried and true, albeit somewhat crufty solution. I've sysadmined a 2 million page view/month vB 3 install for more than a decade now. It's sturdy, but is showing it's age. One new alternative to vBulletin is xenForo: http://xenforo.com/ It's developed by ex-vBulletin folks who started with a clean slate and generally takes a more modern approach. There'a also Invision Power Board, the other 500 lb gorilla of the self-hosted forum landscape. http://www.invisionpower.com/products/board/ On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 7:42 PM, bro...@aristacloud.com wrote: The best, which is relative, and one of the most widely used forum apps is vbulletin http://www.vbulletin.com/. It's commercial, but inexpensive ($195.00 US). Their new CMS product ($295 US) also looks interesting. In addition to all of the standard vbulletin forum functionality we could provide community members with blog space for articles. It allows for tagging, cross posting from forums to docs and blogs, etc. I don't have any experience with the app but it could be an interesting Open Stack social experiment. Kevin On Thu, 5 May 2011, Jordan Rinke wrote: Forums (forums.openstack.org) have just been approved by the PPB. Delegation on working with the community to get consensus on selecting a software for them is to Chad Keck, Myself and Stephen Spector. I should note that based on what I read it appears Forums AND Questions seem to be the answer to the forums debate with a sticky on the forums pointing to whatever the QA software is to funnel specific questions to a questions facility but also to allow general discussion on the forums. Right now, I personally am only focusing on the forums/discussion portion since that was the only portion specifically voted on that I am aware of. If you have a suggestion for forum software please provide it and I will get demos of every one recommended up and we can put the software to a vote for the official forums. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Jeff Kramer jeffkra...@gmail.com http://www.jeffkramer.org/ ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
OK, I am going to re-reply to the same message, top post, leave all the relevant (and irrelevant) info below, reiterate my opinion, and expand. phpBB is a poor choice of forum software, IMO. As was mentioned by others, it has a terrible security record, but that is not entirely my point, relative to the conversation I replied to. I think most web forum software packages, in whatever language and state of security maintenance suffer from an overall design problem. *Typical* forums are a horrible conversation format, IMO, however people seem to love them for some reason (see the current first post - what's important seems to be my avatar, skype#...). Every, and I mean *every* single busy forum site that I have encountered, has some FAQ posted somewhere and exceedingly repetitive replies to posts about Search the Forums before posting blah, blah.. There are a very few exceptions to this common web forum format failure. The fact that they need human intervention to sticky commonly asked posts and keep new users directed to read and search and post intelligently.. at that point, why not just use wikis more - people can ask questions and get answers on a wiki. One exception to the typical web forum, StackExchange (and all related), is an interesting suggestion. It does happen to be one of the forum-ish sites that I think solves some of the common format issues of typical web forums. Unlike most other forum posts, which are arrived at by keyword searches, I can imagine people actually checking the site for new interesting posts and following along the hot conversations, etc., which do not require human intervention to bubble to the top. The minimalization of avatar pictures, lack of silly user taglines, and other *content* distractions put the focus where it belongs. There - hopefully a more wordy reply gets people back on track and thinking about what they might want to look for in a web-based conversation area. -- Michael (please, don't reply-all, I read the mailing list..) On 05/03/2011 02:49 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote: Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums! http://forums.openstack.org Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about the forum etc. -Original Message- From: Everett Toews everett.to...@cybera.ca Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:22pm To: Anne Gentle a...@openstack.org Cc: Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org, openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Regarding your StackExchange questions Anne. For an Open Source StackExchange-like site OSQA (http://www.osqa.net/) could be used. For StackExchange itself it's free as in beer ( http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq). How much does Stack Exchange cost? Creating a Stack Exchange site is free. Using a Stack Exchange site is free. The Creative Commons licenseguarantees that questions and answers are free to access, free to use and re-use (with attribution), and free to share… forever. Everett On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Anne Gentle a...@openstack.org wrote: Hey all, thanks for asking for my input. :) A few months ago, I said it's too early. This month, I do sense a need for community support, based on questions I see on the docs site and the types of questions in Launchpad Answers. I think we're getting to a real user community and it would be good timing to start a forum, so I say yes, with the request that we have strong guides. Jordan and Ron can be our one-percenter guys, the ones who are helpful and responsive. We'll need other one-percenters. Vish has done a _great_ job responding to Launchpad Answers. It's getting to be really helpful. But it's not quite a forum. And it's not about the tool, it's about being responsive, right? I don't want to weigh in too heavily on a tools discussion, because it's more about the community and people than a tool. The responses here seem to indicate that sys admins would lean towards forums. I personally like the Stack Exchange style sites for building a reputation which motivates participation if done well. However, OpenStack is not a big enough draw for them to be a Top Network Site like Ubuntu. And the tool is certainly not open source. I don't honestly know pricing or licensing or availability of a standalone Stack Exchange site. Does anyone have details there? That info might help with the tools discussion. My main point is that I'd like to ensure responsiveness, so we don't have empty restaurant syndrome in a forum-like support site. The people who will be most responsive to users and adopters should probably weigh in on the tools discussion. Devs won't need to monitor the admin community support site once we get a core group of admins running OpenStack and helping others. So that's my current thinking. Anne On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
A few people have mentioned the stack exchange style idea. I think this is a fantastic idea; StackOverflow, etc. has been extremely useful to me. Since it is free to host a subdomain on StackExchange if there is enough support, we might as well get the ball rolling in addition. This could replace or be in addition to a forum. Note that this is not any kind of official decision to use Stack Exchange, but if we want to leave ourselves the opportunity to use it we need to get it started soon because it will likely take a couple of weeks. I went ahead and proposed it here: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/31788/openstack if this seems like a good idea to you, follow it and create and vote on example questions. It would start as a community site. If there is enough support on the site we can decide (with the ppb) whether we want it to be an official channel. Vish___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
On May 4, 2011, at 11:26 AM, Everett Toews wrote: Below is a list of people from this thread who are in favor (or at least interested in trying) the StackExchange style. Add me to that list. -- Ed Leafe Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message (including any attached or embedded documents) is intended for the exclusive and confidential use of the individual or entity to which this message is addressed, and unless otherwise expressly indicated, is confidential and privileged information of Rackspace. Any dissemination, distribution or copying of the enclosed material is prohibited. If you receive this transmission in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail at ab...@rackspace.com, and delete the original message. Your cooperation is appreciated. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
Add me as well --J On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Ed Leafe ed.le...@rackspace.com wrote: On May 4, 2011, at 11:26 AM, Everett Toews wrote: Below is a list of people from this thread who are in favor (or at least interested in trying) the StackExchange style. Add me to that list. -- Ed Leafe Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message (including any attached or embedded documents) is intended for the exclusive and confidential use of the individual or entity to which this message is addressed, and unless otherwise expressly indicated, is confidential and privileged information of Rackspace. Any dissemination, distribution or copying of the enclosed material is prohibited. If you receive this transmission in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail at ab...@rackspace.com, and delete the original message. Your cooperation is appreciated. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
How about this... www.stackertalk.com Since I'm not a developer I'd like to contribute in some form or another :) There is a lot more refinement that needs to go into the site but I'm happy to run this forum. If anyone would like to help moderate/administer please let me know. I like the StackOverflow model for very specific questions as someone mentioned earlier, but MANY prefer the flow and conversation style of forums, especially when coming to learn more about something they haven't arrived at specific questions for. Direct dev involvement isn't absolutely necessary but would certainly be welcome from time to time. You can always subscribe to the feed and watch for topics that peak your interest, etc. Thoughts/concerns/feedback? I had a license I didn't mind using for XenForo which is a nice forum implementation and they should have the ability to mark specific threads as answered/not resolved in the near future. There is the ability to rate individual contributors and answers as well. -- Chad On May 4, 2011, at 12:39 PM, Robert Middleswarth wrote: I guess I am the target audience for this question. I am a system admin although I do some programming my primary job it to keep things running and to build out new hardware. I started looking at using open stack a month or so ago as VMware isn't open source and I am looking to move off that platform. I can tell you the process of even testing openstack is extremely hard why? Because there is a lot of disjointed information with a lot of blue prints in the wiki but no easy way to tell what is and isn't yet ready. There is limited install instructions unless you want to install on your laptop and if you get into trouble doing the setup the only real option I have it IRC. Example: I had a question about openstack compute I asked a question in the mail list and was told this wasn't to correct place I should use answers with a link to answers were I spent an hours on lanchpad even tiring to figure out were to even ask my question. I gave up and ask my question in IRC. It took 2 or 3 times asking the question before someone replied. Most people would have ditched this project long ago but I see great potential out of this project. In the end I moved this project to not viable at this time waiting for it to mature in to a usable project. Will adding a forum be a magic bullet no. Will it add a place that is easy to use and find information for non developers bring this project closer to being usable by people like me likely. Could it turn out to be a waste of resources that no one ever uses possibly. Thanks Robert On 05/04/2011 12:21 PM, Jay Pipes wrote: Me too. I can't stand Launchpad's Answers system and I don't particularly care for forums in general. The StackOverflow style is an easy-to-use alternative. As soon as I can turn LP Answers for Glance off and move to a StackExchange-like system, the better, IMHO. -jay On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 11:55 AM, Jay Payne lett...@gmail.com wrote: Add me as well --J On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Ed Leafe ed.le...@rackspace.com wrote: On May 4, 2011, at 11:26 AM, Everett Toews wrote: Below is a list of people from this thread who are in favor (or at least interested in trying) the StackExchange style. Add me to that list. -- Ed Leafe Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message (including any attached or embedded documents) is intended for the exclusive and confidential use of the individual or entity to which this message is addressed, and unless otherwise expressly indicated, is confidential and privileged information of Rackspace. Any dissemination, distribution or copying of the enclosed material is prohibited. If you receive this transmission in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail at ab...@rackspace.com, and delete the original message. Your cooperation is appreciated. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
On 05/03/2011 10:29 AM, Jordan Rinke wrote: To make this a bit more democratic I have created a survey. Simply vote for your answer and whichever has the most votes wins. (If we had a forum already, the poll/vote could have happened there) http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Z9VPLSJ (It is not a unique link, you could probably spoof multiple votes but let's just try to be civil) Where's the option Yes, but only if I have access to it through my mail client as well? :) Thomas ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
2011/5/3 Ron Pedde ron.pe...@rackspace.com: On 5/2/11 6:10 PM, Soren Hansen so...@linux2go.dk wrote: I just know from experience that try as I might, I'm not likely to maintain any sort of motivation to participate in forums for any useful amount of time. And I think that would be the objective of the forums. It doesn't make sense for core-devs to answer questions like What's the difference between VLAN and Flat managers, when there are others that are willing to contribute to the OpenStack community by answering these questions but aren't active devs. It may be a cultural thing, so it may work out completely differently for OpenStack, but I think the number of Ubuntu core developers who frequent the Ubuntu forums can be counted on one hand. Probably even with fingers to spare. And this I see as proof of the utility of forums, because without any apparent input from the developers themselves, the Ubuntu forums are a great place to find solutions to problems. As an Ubuntu user, I've used the forums many times to find answers to questions, and all (apparently) without having to bother the developers at all. Win win. Excellent points! -- Soren Hansen | http://linux2go.dk/ Ubuntu Developer | http://www.ubuntu.com/ OpenStack Developer | http://www.openstack.org/ ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
2011/5/3 Everett Toews everett.to...@cybera.ca: What I think the essential features for any user support forum are: 1. ability to up vote so the best answers bubble to the top. 2. for the original poster to be able pick the answer they used. In addition to forums, Ubuntu also has a StackExchange.com site. This gives you at least these two features, but I'm not sure we're yet at a size that warrants such a site, but it's something to keep in mind for the future. -- Soren Hansen | http://linux2go.dk/ Ubuntu Developer | http://www.ubuntu.com/ OpenStack Developer | http://www.openstack.org/ ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
Can anyone name a large successful project that either doesn't have an official forum, or that multiple unofficial forums haven't sprung up around? Also, I looked and phpbb has a mod that allows marking topics as solved, selecting a post as the answer and also giving posts solve ratings so I think that is a good combination of both worlds (and we could tweak expand on the concept if needed) -Original Message- From: openstack-bounces+jordan=openstack@lists.launchpad.net [mailto:openstack-bounces+jordan=openstack@lists.launchpad.net] On Behalf Of Thierry Carrez Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:24 AM To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Jordan Rinke wrote: I had a number of discussions with various people at the summit about creating a forum for openstack (forum.openstack.org) and everyone seemed to think it was a good idea especially for user support and discussions for people who are not likely to use a mailing list. So I have 2 questions... A forum is almost always the wrong solution when we talk about a developer/technical subject. In my experience it always ended up fragmenting the community between developers (who don't read the forums) and users (who don't read the rest). It creates frustration as people ask questions that are not answered. It creates confusion as non-skilled people give bad answers, and answers from old threads end up outdated and wrong. The solution for your problem is not a forum. It's a stackexchange-type site. Then questions can be edited, de-duplicated and the good answer wins, with a karma-based meritocracy that ensures self-administration. So my suggestion is: Set up a stackexchange-type site, drop LP Answers. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) Release Manager, OpenStack ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
+1 for the idea of a StackExchange-type site. I tend to find them to be better resources than old-school forums, but without the barriers to just dropping by with a question that Ron mentioned for mailing lists. (It's hard to get users to search mailing list archives before reposting a question, especially when the search functionality isn't stellar.) I think the StackExchange approach is a good balance. Still doesn't fit into a core dev's workflow quite as well, but the point is to get users and power users answering questions for each other. Todd On May 3, 2011, at 4:24 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: Jordan Rinke wrote: I had a number of discussions with various people at the summit about creating a forum for openstack (forum.openstack.org) and everyone seemed to think it was a good idea especially for user support and discussions for people who are not likely to use a mailing list. So I have 2 questions... A forum is almost always the wrong solution when we talk about a developer/technical subject. In my experience it always ended up fragmenting the community between developers (who don't read the forums) and users (who don't read the rest). It creates frustration as people ask questions that are not answered. It creates confusion as non-skilled people give bad answers, and answers from old threads end up outdated and wrong. The solution for your problem is not a forum. It's a stackexchange-type site. Then questions can be edited, de-duplicated and the good answer wins, with a karma-based meritocracy that ensures self-administration. So my suggestion is: Set up a stackexchange-type site, drop LP Answers. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) Release Manager, OpenStack ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
Linux Kernel: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chromeie=UTF-8q=linux+kernel+forum 5 million results Apache: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chromeie=UTF-8q=apache+forum 23 million results I am sure at least one or two of those are active forums. LinuxQuestions.org is a good example, it is a forum that is based around questions and topics are marked as solved when they are and it ranges from newbie questions to fairly advanced stuff. I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a question as well. 77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses) -Original Message- From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 8:59 AM To: Jordan Rinke Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Jordan Rinke wrote: Can anyone name a large successful project that either doesn't have an official forum, or that multiple unofficial forums haven't sprung up around? The Linux Kernel ? Apache HTTPD ? Most projects that have forums are end-user-oriented, not sysadmin-oriented. Also, I looked and phpbb has a mod that allows marking topics as solved, selecting a post as the answer and also giving posts solve ratings so I think that is a good combination of both worlds (and we could tweak expand on the concept if needed) That doesn't solve the duplication of questions which usually plague forums. In the end, it all depends on what you're after. If you want a place for random people to randomly discuss OpenStack, then a forum system is definitely the good answer. If you want an area where to ask questions and find answers, then a stackexchange-type site is what you need. Using one to do the other is a recipe for pain. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) Release Manager, OpenStack ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
a few comments about a forum: + While I agree with Thierry that most end user apps have forums, some SA/Dev oriented software also have forums. + I think there is a need for a place where people can ask simple questions they would not feel comfortable asking on the ML. - Forums are very labor intensive, we need to ensure that we actually have people to do the work - the successful forums tend to be in communities that number in the hundreds of thousands or millions. -+ Devs tend not to participate, but that is ok. They don't have to, if you have a robust user community, which I am not sure we do, yet. + it's ok to try and fail. If there are people like Jordan that want to do the work and start up a forum, I say let them. We just need to watch it and be prepared to shut it down if it is not succeeding. !!!Please do not try to combine the forums with the mailing list. It is ok to have different communication channels for different groups. +1 to a stack exchange type of forum. On 05/03/2011 08:59 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: Jordan Rinke wrote: Can anyone name a large successful project that either doesn't have an official forum, or that multiple unofficial forums haven't sprung up around? The Linux Kernel ? Apache HTTPD ? Most projects that have forums are end-user-oriented, not sysadmin-oriented. Also, I looked and phpbb has a mod that allows marking topics as solved, selecting a post as the answer and also giving posts solve ratings so I think that is a good combination of both worlds (and we could tweak expand on the concept if needed) That doesn't solve the duplication of questions which usually plague forums. In the end, it all depends on what you're after. If you want a place for random people to randomly discuss OpenStack, then a forum system is definitely the good answer. If you want an area where to ask questions and find answers, then a stackexchange-type site is what you need. Using one to do the other is a recipe for pain. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
Jordan Rinke wrote: I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a question as well. If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums in the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it relies on a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or outdated) technical answers and user frustration. They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable and continuously-updated source of information. I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore forums (since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange site (since they are an easy way to contribute reference information). 77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses) I would wait on Anne's answer before taking any hasty decision based on a binary poll. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) Release Manager, OpenStack ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering devs at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an excellent point). We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on the survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth). -Original Message- From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM To: Jordan Rinke Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Jordan Rinke wrote: I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a question as well. If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums in the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it relies on a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or outdated) technical answers and user frustration. They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable and continuously-updated source of information. I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore forums (since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange site (since they are an easy way to contribute reference information). 77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses) I would wait on Anne's answer before taking any hasty decision based on a binary poll. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) Release Manager, OpenStack ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
I believe that should be http://askubuntu.com/ Everett On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 8:36 AM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering devs at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an excellent point). We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on the survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth). -Original Message- From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM To: Jordan Rinke Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Jordan Rinke wrote: I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a question as well. If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums in the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it relies on a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or outdated) technical answers and user frustration. They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable and continuously-updated source of information. I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore forums (since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange site (since they are an easy way to contribute reference information). 77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses) I would wait on Anne's answer before taking any hasty decision based on a binary poll. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) Release Manager, OpenStack ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
On 05/03/2011 09:36 AM, Jordan Rinke wrote: Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering devs at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an excellent point). I think there is much useful information on the Ubuntu forums, but it is laced with incorrect information too. Most technical people can easily discern which is which and I think our users will be more technical than the average Ubuntu user. I think over all it is good to have a non-dev forum. it is worth mentioning that our dev community and culture differs from Ubuntu. Ubuntu devs completely ignore Launchpad answers, while our Answers section is well used and responded to. Perhaps we shouldn't make assumptions based on Ubuntu. We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on the survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth). -Original Message- From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM To: Jordan Rinke Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Jordan Rinke wrote: I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a question as well. If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums in the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it relies on a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or outdated) technical answers and user frustration. They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable and continuously-updated source of information. I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore forums (since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange site (since they are an easy way to contribute reference information). 77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses) I would wait on Anne's answer before taking any hasty decision based on a binary poll. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) Release Manager, OpenStack ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
Hey all, thanks for asking for my input. :) A few months ago, I said it's too early. This month, I do sense a need for community support, based on questions I see on the docs site and the types of questions in Launchpad Answers. I think we're getting to a real user community and it would be good timing to start a forum, so I say yes, with the request that we have strong guides. Jordan and Ron can be our one-percenter guys, the ones who are helpful and responsive. We'll need other one-percenters. Vish has done a _great_ job responding to Launchpad Answers. It's getting to be really helpful. But it's not quite a forum. And it's not about the tool, it's about being responsive, right? I don't want to weigh in too heavily on a tools discussion, because it's more about the community and people than a tool. The responses here seem to indicate that sys admins would lean towards forums. I personally like the Stack Exchange style sites for building a reputation which motivates participation if done well. However, OpenStack is not a big enough draw for them to be a Top Network Site like Ubuntu. And the tool is certainly not open source. I don't honestly know pricing or licensing or availability of a standalone Stack Exchange site. Does anyone have details there? That info might help with the tools discussion. My main point is that I'd like to ensure responsiveness, so we don't have empty restaurant syndrome in a forum-like support site. The people who will be most responsive to users and adopters should probably weigh in on the tools discussion. Devs won't need to monitor the admin community support site once we get a core group of admins running OpenStack and helping others. So that's my current thinking. Anne On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering devs at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an excellent point). We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on the survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth). -Original Message- From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM To: Jordan Rinke Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Jordan Rinke wrote: I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a question as well. If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums in the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it relies on a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or outdated) technical answers and user frustration. They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable and continuously-updated source of information. I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore forums (since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange site (since they are an easy way to contribute reference information). 77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses) I would wait on Anne's answer before taking any hasty decision based on a binary poll. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) Release Manager, OpenStack ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
Anne: Somebody (several people?) have mentioned OSQA as a free Stack Exchange clone. We're running it internally at ISI, it works fairly well. It's a django app. Shapado is another (Ruby-based) Stack Exchange clone. Lorin -- Lorin Hochstein, Computer Scientist USC Information Sciences Institute 703.812.3710 http://www.east.isi.edu/~lorin On May 3, 2011, at 12:48 PM, Anne Gentle wrote: Hey all, thanks for asking for my input. :) A few months ago, I said it's too early. This month, I do sense a need for community support, based on questions I see on the docs site and the types of questions in Launchpad Answers. I think we're getting to a real user community and it would be good timing to start a forum, so I say yes, with the request that we have strong guides. Jordan and Ron can be our one-percenter guys, the ones who are helpful and responsive. We'll need other one-percenters. Vish has done a _great_ job responding to Launchpad Answers. It's getting to be really helpful. But it's not quite a forum. And it's not about the tool, it's about being responsive, right? I don't want to weigh in too heavily on a tools discussion, because it's more about the community and people than a tool. The responses here seem to indicate that sys admins would lean towards forums. I personally like the Stack Exchange style sites for building a reputation which motivates participation if done well. However, OpenStack is not a big enough draw for them to be a Top Network Site like Ubuntu. And the tool is certainly not open source. I don't honestly know pricing or licensing or availability of a standalone Stack Exchange site. Does anyone have details there? That info might help with the tools discussion. My main point is that I'd like to ensure responsiveness, so we don't have empty restaurant syndrome in a forum-like support site. The people who will be most responsive to users and adopters should probably weigh in on the tools discussion. Devs won't need to monitor the admin community support site once we get a core group of admins running OpenStack and helping others. So that's my current thinking. Anne On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering devs at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an excellent point). We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on the survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth). -Original Message- From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM To: Jordan Rinke Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Jordan Rinke wrote: I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a question as well. If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums in the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it relies on a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or outdated) technical answers and user frustration. They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable and continuously-updated source of information. I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore forums (since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange site (since they are an easy way to contribute reference information). 77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses) I would wait on Anne's answer before taking any hasty decision based on a binary poll. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) Release Manager, OpenStack ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
Regarding your StackExchange questions Anne. For an Open Source StackExchange-like site OSQA (http://www.osqa.net/) could be used. For StackExchange itself it's free as in beer ( http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq). How much does Stack Exchange cost? Creating a Stack Exchange site is free. Using a Stack Exchange site is free. The Creative Commons licenseguarantees that questions and answers are free to access, free to use and re-use (with attribution), and free to share… forever. Everett On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Anne Gentle a...@openstack.org wrote: Hey all, thanks for asking for my input. :) A few months ago, I said it's too early. This month, I do sense a need for community support, based on questions I see on the docs site and the types of questions in Launchpad Answers. I think we're getting to a real user community and it would be good timing to start a forum, so I say yes, with the request that we have strong guides. Jordan and Ron can be our one-percenter guys, the ones who are helpful and responsive. We'll need other one-percenters. Vish has done a _great_ job responding to Launchpad Answers. It's getting to be really helpful. But it's not quite a forum. And it's not about the tool, it's about being responsive, right? I don't want to weigh in too heavily on a tools discussion, because it's more about the community and people than a tool. The responses here seem to indicate that sys admins would lean towards forums. I personally like the Stack Exchange style sites for building a reputation which motivates participation if done well. However, OpenStack is not a big enough draw for them to be a Top Network Site like Ubuntu. And the tool is certainly not open source. I don't honestly know pricing or licensing or availability of a standalone Stack Exchange site. Does anyone have details there? That info might help with the tools discussion. My main point is that I'd like to ensure responsiveness, so we don't have empty restaurant syndrome in a forum-like support site. The people who will be most responsive to users and adopters should probably weigh in on the tools discussion. Devs won't need to monitor the admin community support site once we get a core group of admins running OpenStack and helping others. So that's my current thinking. Anne On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering devs at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an excellent point). We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on the survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth). -Original Message- From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM To: Jordan Rinke Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Jordan Rinke wrote: I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a question as well. If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums in the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it relies on a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or outdated) technical answers and user frustration. They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable and continuously-updated source of information. I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore forums (since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange site (since they are an easy way to contribute reference information). 77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses) I would wait on Anne's answer before taking any hasty decision based on a binary poll. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) Release Manager, OpenStack ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 11:24, Thierry Carrez thie...@openstack.org wrote: A forum is almost always the wrong solution when we talk about a developer/technical subject. In my experience it always ended up fragmenting the community between developers (who don't read the forums) and users (who don't read the rest). Agreed. I don't know of any technical forums that are really worth visiting. The solution for your problem is not a forum. It's a stackexchange-type site. Then questions can be edited, de-duplicated and the good answer wins, with a karma-based meritocracy that ensures self-administration. As weird as this may be, karma-based systems seem to be rather effective as gathering karma becomes a goal in and as of itself. As long as that improves the overall experience, there is nothing wrong with this, though. So my suggestion is: Set up a stackexchange-type site, drop LP Answers. Alternatively, stackexchange itself could be used. Personally, I don't care either way about the implementation; the underlying concept are what counts. Richard ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums! http://forums.openstack.org Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about the forum etc. -Original Message- From: Everett Toews everett.to...@cybera.ca Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:22pm To: Anne Gentle a...@openstack.org Cc: Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org, openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Regarding your StackExchange questions Anne. For an Open Source StackExchange-like site OSQA (http://www.osqa.net/) could be used. For StackExchange itself it's free as in beer ( http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq). How much does Stack Exchange cost? Creating a Stack Exchange site is free. Using a Stack Exchange site is free. The Creative Commons licenseguarantees that questions and answers are free to access, free to use and re-use (with attribution), and free to share… forever. Everett On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Anne Gentle a...@openstack.org wrote: Hey all, thanks for asking for my input. :) A few months ago, I said it's too early. This month, I do sense a need for community support, based on questions I see on the docs site and the types of questions in Launchpad Answers. I think we're getting to a real user community and it would be good timing to start a forum, so I say yes, with the request that we have strong guides. Jordan and Ron can be our one-percenter guys, the ones who are helpful and responsive. We'll need other one-percenters. Vish has done a _great_ job responding to Launchpad Answers. It's getting to be really helpful. But it's not quite a forum. And it's not about the tool, it's about being responsive, right? I don't want to weigh in too heavily on a tools discussion, because it's more about the community and people than a tool. The responses here seem to indicate that sys admins would lean towards forums. I personally like the Stack Exchange style sites for building a reputation which motivates participation if done well. However, OpenStack is not a big enough draw for them to be a Top Network Site like Ubuntu. And the tool is certainly not open source. I don't honestly know pricing or licensing or availability of a standalone Stack Exchange site. Does anyone have details there? That info might help with the tools discussion. My main point is that I'd like to ensure responsiveness, so we don't have empty restaurant syndrome in a forum-like support site. The people who will be most responsive to users and adopters should probably weigh in on the tools discussion. Devs won't need to monitor the admin community support site once we get a core group of admins running OpenStack and helping others. So that's my current thinking. Anne On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering devs at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an excellent point). We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on the survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth). -Original Message- From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM To: Jordan Rinke Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Jordan Rinke wrote: I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a question as well. If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums in the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it relies on a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or outdated) technical answers and user frustration. They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable and continuously-updated source of information. I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore forums (since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange site (since they are an easy way to contribute reference information). 77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses) I would wait on Anne's answer before taking any hasty decision based on a binary poll. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) Release Manager, OpenStack ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
On 05/03/2011 02:49 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote: Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums! http://forums.openstack.org Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about the forum etc. phpBB is a poor choice of forum software, IMO. -- Michael ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
This is awesome!!! Now we can spend 3 weeks debating about forum software. I like vbulletin. On 5/3/11 3:32 PM, Michael Shuler mshu...@gmail.com wrote: On 05/03/2011 02:49 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote: Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums! http://forums.openstack.org Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about the forum etc. phpBB is a poor choice of forum software, IMO. -- Michael ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
Are these really the official openstack forums? I didn't get the impression that this was settled. Didn't we bypass some processes here? On 5/3/11 2:49 PM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums! http://forums.openstack.org Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about the forum etc. -Original Message- From: Everett Toews everett.to...@cybera.ca Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:22pm To: Anne Gentle a...@openstack.org Cc: Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org, openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Regarding your StackExchange questions Anne. For an Open Source StackExchange-like site OSQA (http://www.osqa.net/) could be used. For StackExchange itself it's free as in beer ( http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq). How much does Stack Exchange cost? Creating a Stack Exchange site is free. Using a Stack Exchange site is free. The Creative Commons licenseguarantees that questions and answers are free to access, free to use and re-use (with attribution), and free to shareŠ forever. Everett On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Anne Gentle a...@openstack.org wrote: Hey all, thanks for asking for my input. :) A few months ago, I said it's too early. This month, I do sense a need for community support, based on questions I see on the docs site and the types of questions in Launchpad Answers. I think we're getting to a real user community and it would be good timing to start a forum, so I say yes, with the request that we have strong guides. Jordan and Ron can be our one-percenter guys, the ones who are helpful and responsive. We'll need other one-percenters. Vish has done a _great_ job responding to Launchpad Answers. It's getting to be really helpful. But it's not quite a forum. And it's not about the tool, it's about being responsive, right? I don't want to weigh in too heavily on a tools discussion, because it's more about the community and people than a tool. The responses here seem to indicate that sys admins would lean towards forums. I personally like the Stack Exchange style sites for building a reputation which motivates participation if done well. However, OpenStack is not a big enough draw for them to be a Top Network Site like Ubuntu. And the tool is certainly not open source. I don't honestly know pricing or licensing or availability of a standalone Stack Exchange site. Does anyone have details there? That info might help with the tools discussion. My main point is that I'd like to ensure responsiveness, so we don't have empty restaurant syndrome in a forum-like support site. The people who will be most responsive to users and adopters should probably weigh in on the tools discussion. Devs won't need to monitor the admin community support site once we get a core group of admins running OpenStack and helping others. So that's my current thinking. Anne On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering devs at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an excellent point). We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on the survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth). -Original Message- From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM To: Jordan Rinke Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Jordan Rinke wrote: I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a question as well. If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums in the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it relies on a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or outdated) technical answers and user frustration. They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable and continuously-updated source of information. I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore forums (since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange site (since they are an easy way to contribute reference information). 77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses) I would wait on Anne's answer before taking any hasty decision based on a binary poll. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
Do I have this right? We were just debating this topic this morning and I just see a blog post by Stephen Spector announcing forums? Incroyable! Bernard Golden bernard.gol...@gmail.com On May 3, 2011, at 2:42 PM, Daniel Salinas wrote: This is awesome!!! Now we can spend 3 weeks debating about forum software. I like vbulletin. On 5/3/11 3:32 PM, Michael Shuler mshu...@gmail.com wrote: On 05/03/2011 02:49 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote: Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums! http://forums.openstack.org Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about the forum etc. phpBB is a poor choice of forum software, IMO. -- Michael ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
I just brought that up in the release meeting. It is on the agenda for the PPB to discuss on Thursday. Vish On May 3, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Paul Voccio wrote: Are these really the official openstack forums? I didn't get the impression that this was settled. Didn't we bypass some processes here? On 5/3/11 2:49 PM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums! http://forums.openstack.org Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about the forum etc. -Original Message- From: Everett Toews everett.to...@cybera.ca Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:22pm To: Anne Gentle a...@openstack.org Cc: Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org, openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Regarding your StackExchange questions Anne. For an Open Source StackExchange-like site OSQA (http://www.osqa.net/) could be used. For StackExchange itself it's free as in beer ( http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq). How much does Stack Exchange cost? Creating a Stack Exchange site is free. Using a Stack Exchange site is free. The Creative Commons licenseguarantees that questions and answers are free to access, free to use and re-use (with attribution), and free to shareŠ forever. Everett On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Anne Gentle a...@openstack.org wrote: Hey all, thanks for asking for my input. :) A few months ago, I said it's too early. This month, I do sense a need for community support, based on questions I see on the docs site and the types of questions in Launchpad Answers. I think we're getting to a real user community and it would be good timing to start a forum, so I say yes, with the request that we have strong guides. Jordan and Ron can be our one-percenter guys, the ones who are helpful and responsive. We'll need other one-percenters. Vish has done a _great_ job responding to Launchpad Answers. It's getting to be really helpful. But it's not quite a forum. And it's not about the tool, it's about being responsive, right? I don't want to weigh in too heavily on a tools discussion, because it's more about the community and people than a tool. The responses here seem to indicate that sys admins would lean towards forums. I personally like the Stack Exchange style sites for building a reputation which motivates participation if done well. However, OpenStack is not a big enough draw for them to be a Top Network Site like Ubuntu. And the tool is certainly not open source. I don't honestly know pricing or licensing or availability of a standalone Stack Exchange site. Does anyone have details there? That info might help with the tools discussion. My main point is that I'd like to ensure responsiveness, so we don't have empty restaurant syndrome in a forum-like support site. The people who will be most responsive to users and adopters should probably weigh in on the tools discussion. Devs won't need to monitor the admin community support site once we get a core group of admins running OpenStack and helping others. So that's my current thinking. Anne On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering devs at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an excellent point). We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on the survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth). -Original Message- From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM To: Jordan Rinke Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Jordan Rinke wrote: I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a question as well. If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums in the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it relies on a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or outdated) technical answers and user frustration. They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable and continuously-updated source of information. I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore forums (since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange site (since
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
Yeah... I misunderstood the process and where we were / some direction I received and I implemented the forums before it was fully decided. Once I did that Stephen put out the announcement at my request believing that everything was set and ready to go. I totally take the blame for executing something that wasn't actually ready to go from a community consensus stand point and I apologize. -Original Message- From: Vishvananda Ishaya vishvana...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 6:17pm To: Paul Voccio paul.voc...@rackspace.com Cc: Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org, Everett Toews everett.to...@cybera.ca, openstack@lists.launchpad.net openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum I just brought that up in the release meeting. It is on the agenda for the PPB to discuss on Thursday. Vish On May 3, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Paul Voccio wrote: Are these really the official openstack forums? I didn't get the impression that this was settled. Didn't we bypass some processes here? On 5/3/11 2:49 PM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums! http://forums.openstack.org Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about the forum etc. -Original Message- From: Everett Toews everett.to...@cybera.ca Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:22pm To: Anne Gentle a...@openstack.org Cc: Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org, openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Regarding your StackExchange questions Anne. For an Open Source StackExchange-like site OSQA (http://www.osqa.net/) could be used. For StackExchange itself it's free as in beer ( http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq). How much does Stack Exchange cost? Creating a Stack Exchange site is free. Using a Stack Exchange site is free. The Creative Commons licenseguarantees that questions and answers are free to access, free to use and re-use (with attribution), and free to shareŠ forever. Everett On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Anne Gentle a...@openstack.org wrote: Hey all, thanks for asking for my input. :) A few months ago, I said it's too early. This month, I do sense a need for community support, based on questions I see on the docs site and the types of questions in Launchpad Answers. I think we're getting to a real user community and it would be good timing to start a forum, so I say yes, with the request that we have strong guides. Jordan and Ron can be our one-percenter guys, the ones who are helpful and responsive. We'll need other one-percenters. Vish has done a _great_ job responding to Launchpad Answers. It's getting to be really helpful. But it's not quite a forum. And it's not about the tool, it's about being responsive, right? I don't want to weigh in too heavily on a tools discussion, because it's more about the community and people than a tool. The responses here seem to indicate that sys admins would lean towards forums. I personally like the Stack Exchange style sites for building a reputation which motivates participation if done well. However, OpenStack is not a big enough draw for them to be a Top Network Site like Ubuntu. And the tool is certainly not open source. I don't honestly know pricing or licensing or availability of a standalone Stack Exchange site. Does anyone have details there? That info might help with the tools discussion. My main point is that I'd like to ensure responsiveness, so we don't have empty restaurant syndrome in a forum-like support site. The people who will be most responsive to users and adopters should probably weigh in on the tools discussion. Devs won't need to monitor the admin community support site once we get a core group of admins running OpenStack and helping others. So that's my current thinking. Anne On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering devs at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an excellent point). We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on the survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth). -Original Message- From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM To: Jordan Rinke Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Jordan Rinke wrote: I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a question as well
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
On 05/04/2011 05:42 AM, Daniel Salinas wrote: This is awesome!!! Now we can spend 3 weeks debating about forum software. I like vbulletin. On 5/3/11 3:32 PM, Michael Shuler mshu...@gmail.com wrote: On 05/03/2011 02:49 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote: Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums! http://forums.openstack.org Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about the forum etc. phpBB is a poor choice of forum software, IMO. -- Michael Yet, phpBB has a very bad security record, and I had countless issues with it. Spammers / hackers have the bad habit to google for a specific version of phpBB and use that as a result for targets. Also, phpBB isn't threaded. I think threading isn't an option: it's needed, IMHO. Just my 2 cents, Thomas ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
And I think that is exactly the things one should bring to the table when discussing the pros/cons of a piece of software. I don't have a preference myself. I don't really know of any webapp beyond security problems. What is more important to me is who will maintain it and how quickly that app's authors respond to exploits. Do we have a hard list of people committed to the project? I have signed up as a moderator. On 5/3/11 9:51 PM, Thomas Goirand tho...@goirand.fr wrote: On 05/04/2011 05:42 AM, Daniel Salinas wrote: This is awesome!!! Now we can spend 3 weeks debating about forum software. I like vbulletin. On 5/3/11 3:32 PM, Michael Shuler mshu...@gmail.com wrote: On 05/03/2011 02:49 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote: Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums! http://forums.openstack.org Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about the forum etc. phpBB is a poor choice of forum software, IMO. -- Michael Yet, phpBB has a very bad security record, and I had countless issues with it. Spammers / hackers have the bad habit to google for a specific version of phpBB and use that as a result for targets. Also, phpBB isn't threaded. I think threading isn't an option: it's needed, IMHO. Just my 2 cents, Thomas ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
- Original message - Is there another free OSS option out there for a forum? All the others I know of require money for commercial use etc. About 2 dozen of very valuable projects yes. PunBB, SMF and Fudforum pops to my mind, smf being the most famous, Fudforum being the most feature full (IMHO). All of then are in GPL or similar, having better security record, and responsive upstream authors. Fudforum has a threaded mode. PhpBB is what Openstack should never become: bloatware because of too many not organized contribs. Thomas (from my phone) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
I wish the list archives had a better search function. On 5/2/11 3:12 PM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: I had a number of discussions with various people at the summit about creating a forum for openstack (forum.openstack.org) and everyone seemed to think it was a good idea especially for user support and discussions for people who are not likely to use a mailing list. So I have 2 questions... 1. Is anyone against creating a forum? 2. Does anyone have a specific forum software they suggest we use? Once I have it all configured, we will need to determine the categories and get moderators etc for each category. Stephen Spector will be the keeper of the kingdom in that regard so if you would like to help out just let him know. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message (including any attached or embedded documents) is intended for the exclusive and confidential use of the individual or entity to which this message is addressed, and unless otherwise expressly indicated, is confidential and privileged information of Rackspace. Any dissemination, distribution or copying of the enclosed material is prohibited. If you receive this transmission in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail at ab...@rackspace.com, and delete the original message. Your cooperation is appreciated. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
1) I think this is a great idea... 2) I would highly recommend XenForo as a platform for the forum (www.xenforo.com). Check it out if you haven't seen it before. As someone who moderates a handful of forums and participates on maybe 100+ it is the best I've seen/used. -- Chad On May 2, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote: I had a number of discussions with various people at the summit about creating a forum for openstack (forum.openstack.org) and everyone seemed to think it was a good idea especially for user support and discussions for people who are not likely to use a mailing list. So I have 2 questions... 1. Is anyone against creating a forum? 2. Does anyone have a specific forum software they suggest we use? Once I have it all configured, we will need to determine the categories and get moderators etc for each category. Stephen Spector will be the keeper of the kingdom in that regard so if you would like to help out just let him know. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
I'm all for creating a forum. The Launchpad answers thing is okay but could be better and it's very siloed to the individual project. I found a stackexchange-like open source implementation called OSQA: The Open Source QA System http://www.osqa.net/. It's written in python. Could be a good fit. Everett On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 2:12 PM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: I had a number of discussions with various people at the summit about creating a forum for openstack (forum.openstack.org) and everyone seemed to think it was a good idea especially for user support and discussions for people who are not likely to use a mailing list. So I have 2 questions... 1. Is anyone against creating a forum? 2. Does anyone have a specific forum software they suggest we use? Once I have it all configured, we will need to determine the categories and get moderators etc for each category. Stephen Spector will be the keeper of the kingdom in that regard so if you would like to help out just let him know. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
like! B On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Everett Toews everett.to...@cybera.cawrote: I'm all for creating a forum. The Launchpad answers thing is okay but could be better and it's very siloed to the individual project. I found a stackexchange-like open source implementation called OSQA: The Open Source QA System http://www.osqa.net/. It's written in python. Could be a good fit. Everett On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 2:12 PM, Jordan Rinke jor...@openstack.org wrote: I had a number of discussions with various people at the summit about creating a forum for openstack (forum.openstack.org) and everyone seemed to think it was a good idea especially for user support and discussions for people who are not likely to use a mailing list. So I have 2 questions... 1. Is anyone against creating a forum? 2. Does anyone have a specific forum software they suggest we use? Once I have it all configured, we will need to determine the categories and get moderators etc for each category. Stephen Spector will be the keeper of the kingdom in that regard so if you would like to help out just let him know. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Barton Satchwill Senior Developer Cybera Inc. www.cybera.ca Cybera is a not-for-profit organization that works to spur and support innovation, for the economic benefit of Alberta, through the use of cyberinfrastructure. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
On 5/2/11 4:03 PM, Matt Dietz matt.di...@rackspace.com wrote: I think a forum as a means of communication is great. However, I'm not sure I feel it's the right fit here. My main concern in this regard is that there would be a separation of important discussions. I think the class of questions on a forum would be wildly different than the questions on a dev mailing list. Forums would be a great place to ask questions like How do I set up my bridge interface to persist on reboot? Questions like these aren't the right questions for the openstack mailing list, and end-users don't want to bother devs with this sort of thing, so they walk away from the project before getting it set up. Properly moderated, the forums could push dev questions to the mailing list, while removing distraction from devs and building a community of users. I would also be concerned about a feeling of false consensus on hot-button topics that see activity on one channel but not the other. Finally, we'd be introducing yet another fire hose for project communications, and frankly I personally wouldn't feel compelled to check both, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I don't see forums as a channel for project communication or consensus building. I see it more as a way for users-to-user discussion on topics like how I implemented X on top of openstack, or How can I integrate system X with my openstack cluster. Things that don't get discussed on the dev list. Another way to have these sorts of discussions would be an openstack-users list, but I think lists present much more friction to tire-kickers or intrigued admins. Forums have a much lower barrier to entry, and consequently (IMHO) they are better tools for building communities. Controlling forum spam is an amazing pain, but that's another issue. :) Just my opinion, but I think end-user/sysadmin focused forums are a great idea. -- Ron ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
Fair points. I can see it being used for user support. Another way to have these sorts of discussions would be an openstack-users list, but I think lists present much more friction to tire-kickers or intrigued admins. Forums have a much lower barrier to entry, and consequently (IMHO) they are better tools for building communities. Controlling forum spam is an amazing pain, but that's another issue. :) Can you explain this a little? I don't necessarily object, but I frankly don't see the difference, either. On 5/2/11 5:01 PM, Ron Pedde ron.pe...@rackspace.com wrote: On 5/2/11 4:03 PM, Matt Dietz matt.di...@rackspace.com wrote: I think a forum as a means of communication is great. However, I'm not sure I feel it's the right fit here. My main concern in this regard is that there would be a separation of important discussions. I think the class of questions on a forum would be wildly different than the questions on a dev mailing list. Forums would be a great place to ask questions like How do I set up my bridge interface to persist on reboot? Questions like these aren't the right questions for the openstack mailing list, and end-users don't want to bother devs with this sort of thing, so they walk away from the project before getting it set up. Properly moderated, the forums could push dev questions to the mailing list, while removing distraction from devs and building a community of users. I would also be concerned about a feeling of false consensus on hot-button topics that see activity on one channel but not the other. Finally, we'd be introducing yet another fire hose for project communications, and frankly I personally wouldn't feel compelled to check both, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I don't see forums as a channel for project communication or consensus building. I see it more as a way for users-to-user discussion on topics like how I implemented X on top of openstack, or How can I integrate system X with my openstack cluster. Things that don't get discussed on the dev list. Another way to have these sorts of discussions would be an openstack-users list, but I think lists present much more friction to tire-kickers or intrigued admins. Forums have a much lower barrier to entry, and consequently (IMHO) they are better tools for building communities. Controlling forum spam is an amazing pain, but that's another issue. :) Just my opinion, but I think end-user/sysadmin focused forums are a great idea. -- Ron Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message (including any attached or embedded documents) is intended for the exclusive and confidential use of the individual or entity to which this message is addressed, and unless otherwise expressly indicated, is confidential and privileged information of Rackspace. Any dissemination, distribution or copying of the enclosed material is prohibited. If you receive this transmission in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail at ab...@rackspace.com, and delete the original message. Your cooperation is appreciated. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
If we create a forum for these types of questions, I suggest we turn off Questions in Launchpad and direct people to the forum instead. It is already hard for some people to get a response there and it will only get worse if we have to answer questions in two places. Vish On May 2, 2011, at 3:01 PM, Ron Pedde wrote: On 5/2/11 4:03 PM, Matt Dietz matt.di...@rackspace.com wrote: I think a forum as a means of communication is great. However, I'm not sure I feel it's the right fit here. My main concern in this regard is that there would be a separation of important discussions. I think the class of questions on a forum would be wildly different than the questions on a dev mailing list. Forums would be a great place to ask questions like How do I set up my bridge interface to persist on reboot? Questions like these aren't the right questions for the openstack mailing list, and end-users don't want to bother devs with this sort of thing, so they walk away from the project before getting it set up. Properly moderated, the forums could push dev questions to the mailing list, while removing distraction from devs and building a community of users. I would also be concerned about a feeling of false consensus on hot-button topics that see activity on one channel but not the other. Finally, we'd be introducing yet another fire hose for project communications, and frankly I personally wouldn't feel compelled to check both, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I don't see forums as a channel for project communication or consensus building. I see it more as a way for users-to-user discussion on topics like how I implemented X on top of openstack, or How can I integrate system X with my openstack cluster. Things that don't get discussed on the dev list. Another way to have these sorts of discussions would be an openstack-users list, but I think lists present much more friction to tire-kickers or intrigued admins. Forums have a much lower barrier to entry, and consequently (IMHO) they are better tools for building communities. Controlling forum spam is an amazing pain, but that's another issue. :) Just my opinion, but I think end-user/sysadmin focused forums are a great idea. -- Ron ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
On 5/2/11 5:10 PM, Matt Dietz matt.di...@rackspace.com wrote: Fair points. I can see it being used for user support. Another way to have these sorts of discussions would be an openstack-users list, but I think lists present much more friction to tire-kickers or intrigued admins. Forums have a much lower barrier to entry, and consequently (IMHO) they are better tools for building communities. Controlling forum spam is an amazing pain, but that's another issue. :) Can you explain this a little? I don't necessarily object, but I frankly don't see the difference, either. Hmmm... it's possible that statement is more a reflection of my own preferences and experience. My experience is that I will peruse mailing list archives, but I will rarely *post* to mailing lists. Something about the formality of it or the pain of subscribing and unsubscribing (or something!) makes me much more reluctant to join a mailing list than to post a question in a forum. If I do join a mailing list, it's because I'm actively using a product or project -- I've already made the commitment to be a long-term member of the community. I won't use the list just to ask a simple question about installation or configuration. Forums just seem to me to be much more immediate. Conversely, I'm also much more likely to answer a question on a forum than on a mailing list. I also find that forums generally have better search capabilities than most list archivers, and I have better luck digging an answer out of a forum than a list archive. It's possible I'm the only one that feels this way, though, so feel free to disregard this data point. :) -- Ron On 5/2/11 5:01 PM, Ron Pedde ron.pe...@rackspace.com wrote: On 5/2/11 4:03 PM, Matt Dietz matt.di...@rackspace.com wrote: I think a forum as a means of communication is great. However, I'm not sure I feel it's the right fit here. My main concern in this regard is that there would be a separation of important discussions. I think the class of questions on a forum would be wildly different than the questions on a dev mailing list. Forums would be a great place to ask questions like How do I set up my bridge interface to persist on reboot? Questions like these aren't the right questions for the openstack mailing list, and end-users don't want to bother devs with this sort of thing, so they walk away from the project before getting it set up. Properly moderated, the forums could push dev questions to the mailing list, while removing distraction from devs and building a community of users. I would also be concerned about a feeling of false consensus on hot-button topics that see activity on one channel but not the other. Finally, we'd be introducing yet another fire hose for project communications, and frankly I personally wouldn't feel compelled to check both, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I don't see forums as a channel for project communication or consensus building. I see it more as a way for users-to-user discussion on topics like how I implemented X on top of openstack, or How can I integrate system X with my openstack cluster. Things that don't get discussed on the dev list. Another way to have these sorts of discussions would be an openstack-users list, but I think lists present much more friction to tire-kickers or intrigued admins. Forums have a much lower barrier to entry, and consequently (IMHO) they are better tools for building communities. Controlling forum spam is an amazing pain, but that's another issue. :) Just my opinion, but I think end-user/sysadmin focused forums are a great idea. -- Ron Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message (including any attached or embedded documents) is intended for the exclusive and confidential use of the individual or entity to which this message is addressed, and unless otherwise expressly indicated, is confidential and privileged information of Rackspace. Any dissemination, distribution or copying of the enclosed material is prohibited. If you receive this transmission in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail at ab...@rackspace.com, and delete the original message. Your cooperation is appreciated. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
I agree with this posting. One thing to keep in mind is that OpenStack will have many more users (in other words, people who are not developing the software, but rather are implementing it or even using someone's implementation as a basis for end user applications) interested in OpenStack in the future and forums are excellent for end user sharing and searching. For many of them, forums are a more modern way to do this type of research and sharing, while mailing lists are a bit intimidating. I believe that even if the developer list remains on email, there will eventually be forums for non-developers. Think Matt was saying the same thing as well. Bernard Golden bernard.gol...@gmail.com On May 2, 2011, at 3:41 PM, Ron Pedde wrote: On 5/2/11 5:10 PM, Matt Dietz matt.di...@rackspace.com wrote: Fair points. I can see it being used for user support. Another way to have these sorts of discussions would be an openstack-users list, but I think lists present much more friction to tire-kickers or intrigued admins. Forums have a much lower barrier to entry, and consequently (IMHO) they are better tools for building communities. Controlling forum spam is an amazing pain, but that's another issue. :) Can you explain this a little? I don't necessarily object, but I frankly don't see the difference, either. Hmmm... it's possible that statement is more a reflection of my own preferences and experience. My experience is that I will peruse mailing list archives, but I will rarely *post* to mailing lists. Something about the formality of it or the pain of subscribing and unsubscribing (or something!) makes me much more reluctant to join a mailing list than to post a question in a forum. If I do join a mailing list, it's because I'm actively using a product or project -- I've already made the commitment to be a long-term member of the community. I won't use the list just to ask a simple question about installation or configuration. Forums just seem to me to be much more immediate. Conversely, I'm also much more likely to answer a question on a forum than on a mailing list. I also find that forums generally have better search capabilities than most list archivers, and I have better luck digging an answer out of a forum than a list archive. It's possible I'm the only one that feels this way, though, so feel free to disregard this data point. :) -- Ron On 5/2/11 5:01 PM, Ron Pedde ron.pe...@rackspace.com wrote: On 5/2/11 4:03 PM, Matt Dietz matt.di...@rackspace.com wrote: I think a forum as a means of communication is great. However, I'm not sure I feel it's the right fit here. My main concern in this regard is that there would be a separation of important discussions. I think the class of questions on a forum would be wildly different than the questions on a dev mailing list. Forums would be a great place to ask questions like How do I set up my bridge interface to persist on reboot? Questions like these aren't the right questions for the openstack mailing list, and end-users don't want to bother devs with this sort of thing, so they walk away from the project before getting it set up. Properly moderated, the forums could push dev questions to the mailing list, while removing distraction from devs and building a community of users. I would also be concerned about a feeling of false consensus on hot-button topics that see activity on one channel but not the other. Finally, we'd be introducing yet another fire hose for project communications, and frankly I personally wouldn't feel compelled to check both, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I don't see forums as a channel for project communication or consensus building. I see it more as a way for users-to-user discussion on topics like how I implemented X on top of openstack, or How can I integrate system X with my openstack cluster. Things that don't get discussed on the dev list. Another way to have these sorts of discussions would be an openstack-users list, but I think lists present much more friction to tire-kickers or intrigued admins. Forums have a much lower barrier to entry, and consequently (IMHO) they are better tools for building communities. Controlling forum spam is an amazing pain, but that's another issue. :) Just my opinion, but I think end-user/sysadmin focused forums are a great idea. -- Ron Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message (including any attached or embedded documents) is intended for the exclusive and confidential use of the individual or entity to which this message is addressed, and unless otherwise expressly indicated, is confidential and privileged information of Rackspace. Any dissemination, distribution or copying of the enclosed material is prohibited. If you receive this transmission in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail at ab...@rackspace.com, and delete the original
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
It's certainly a matter of personal preference, but I absolutely hate forums. I hate that I cannot interact with them using clients that I choose. No, the fact that I can choose between different web browsers doesn't count. E-mail and usenet, for instance, are excellent means for communication. I hate that I have to poll forums to see if anything new is happening. E-mail notifications from forums frustrate me even more, because I can't just reply to the e-mail to respond to the thread. Give me a forum that has an NNTP interface, and we can talk. :) I totally understand that I'm reasonably alone in this (the endless amount of forums with even more endless amounts of users all over the Internet clearly demonstrates that I'm at least a minority), so don't let me hold you guys back if you all love forums. I just know from experience that try as I might, I'm not likely to maintain any sort of motivation to participate in forums for any useful amount of time. It may be a cultural thing, so it may work out completely differently for OpenStack, but I think the number of Ubuntu core developers who frequent the Ubuntu forums can be counted on one hand. Probably even with fingers to spare. -- Soren Hansen | http://linux2go.dk/ Ubuntu Developer | http://www.ubuntu.com/ OpenStack Developer | http://www.openstack.org/ ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
What I think the essential features for any user support forum are: 1. ability to up vote so the best answers bubble to the top. 2. for the original poster to be able pick the answer they used. 3. the chance to edit answers so they don't become stale. 4. they system searches the forum when you go to ask a new question to reduce the number of duplicates. People want answers out of these kinds of forums, not having to sift through post after post trying to find the correct path through to an answer (if one even exists). I took a look at the XenForo forums and I didn't see these features. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Everett On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Chad Keck c...@chadkeck.com wrote: 1) I think this is a great idea... 2) I would highly recommend XenForo as a platform for the forum ( www.xenforo.com). Check it out if you haven't seen it before. As someone who moderates a handful of forums and participates on maybe 100+ it is the best I've seen/used. -- Chad On May 2, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote: I had a number of discussions with various people at the summit about creating a forum for openstack (forum.openstack.org) and everyone seemed to think it was a good idea especially for user support and discussions for people who are not likely to use a mailing list. So I have 2 questions... 1. Is anyone against creating a forum? 2. Does anyone have a specific forum software they suggest we use? Once I have it all configured, we will need to determine the categories and get moderators etc for each category. Stephen Spector will be the keeper of the kingdom in that regard so if you would like to help out just let him know. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
On Mon, 2 May 2011 22:41:32 + Ron Pedde ron.pe...@rackspace.com wrote: My experience is that I will peruse mailing list archives, but I will rarely *post* to mailing lists. Something about the formality of it or the pain of subscribing and unsubscribing (or something!) makes me much more reluctant to join a mailing list than to post a question in a forum. Agreed, but why can't we simply use a mailing list that anyone (non subscribers) can post? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
On 5/2/11 6:10 PM, Soren Hansen so...@linux2go.dk wrote: I just know from experience that try as I might, I'm not likely to maintain any sort of motivation to participate in forums for any useful amount of time. And I think that would be the objective of the forums. It doesn't make sense for core-devs to answer questions like What's the difference between VLAN and Flat managers, when there are others that are willing to contribute to the OpenStack community by answering these questions but aren't active devs. It may be a cultural thing, so it may work out completely differently for OpenStack, but I think the number of Ubuntu core developers who frequent the Ubuntu forums can be counted on one hand. Probably even with fingers to spare. And this I see as proof of the utility of forums, because without any apparent input from the developers themselves, the Ubuntu forums are a great place to find solutions to problems. As an Ubuntu user, I've used the forums many times to find answers to questions, and all (apparently) without having to bother the developers at all. Win win. -- Ron Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message (including any attached or embedded documents) is intended for the exclusive and confidential use of the individual or entity to which this message is addressed, and unless otherwise expressly indicated, is confidential and privileged information of Rackspace. Any dissemination, distribution or copying of the enclosed material is prohibited. If you receive this transmission in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail at ab...@rackspace.com, and delete the original message. Your cooperation is appreciated. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
I second Soren's position - anything which is not streaming into my workflow and does not allow a two clicks response (Reply/Send) is doomed to stay out of focus and turn into ignored noise rather than a productivity tool. Dimitar Boyn Collaboration Software Group SaaS Cloud Platform Architect dib...@cisco.com Phone: +1(408)566-4265 Mobile: +1(650)996-9008 Cisco Systems, Inc. 3979 Freedom Circle Santa Clara, CA 95054 United States www.cisco.com -Original Message- From: openstack-bounces+diboyn=cisco@lists.launchpad.net [mailto:openstack-bounces+diboyn=cisco@lists.launchpad.net] On Behalf Of Soren Hansen Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 4:10 PM To: Jordan Rinke Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum It's certainly a matter of personal preference, but I absolutely hate forums. I hate that I cannot interact with them using clients that I choose. No, the fact that I can choose between different web browsers doesn't count. E-mail and usenet, for instance, are excellent means for communication. I hate that I have to poll forums to see if anything new is happening. E-mail notifications from forums frustrate me even more, because I can't just reply to the e-mail to respond to the thread. Give me a forum that has an NNTP interface, and we can talk. :) I totally understand that I'm reasonably alone in this (the endless amount of forums with even more endless amounts of users all over the Internet clearly demonstrates that I'm at least a minority), so don't let me hold you guys back if you all love forums. I just know from experience that try as I might, I'm not likely to maintain any sort of motivation to participate in forums for any useful amount of time. It may be a cultural thing, so it may work out completely differently for OpenStack, but I think the number of Ubuntu core developers who frequent the Ubuntu forums can be counted on one hand. Probably even with fingers to spare. -- Soren Hansen | http://linux2go.dk/ Ubuntu Developer | http://www.ubuntu.com/ OpenStack Developer | http://www.openstack.org/ ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
On 05/03/2011 04:12 AM, Jordan Rinke wrote: I had a number of discussions with various people at the summit about creating a forum for openstack (forum.openstack.org) and everyone seemed to think it was a good idea especially for user support and discussions for people who are not likely to use a mailing list. So I have 2 questions... 1. Is anyone against creating a forum? 2. Does anyone have a specific forum software they suggest we use? There are tools which allow forums and lists to be seen as one, and users would just use the medium they like the most. I don't know if this would be possible on a list @launchpad though. Just my 2 cents, Thomas ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
On 05/03/2011 07:10 AM, Soren Hansen wrote: I totally understand that I'm reasonably alone in this (the endless amount of forums with even more endless amounts of users all over the Internet clearly demonstrates that I'm at least a minority), so don't let me hold you guys back if you all love forums. I just know from experience that try as I might, I'm not likely to maintain any sort of motivation to participate in forums for any useful amount of time. You are not alone, which is why I know there are projects so you can use forums AND mailing lists. Posts to the forums are going to the list and vice-versa. Too bad that I can't remember any project names, but I know it's possible, at least. I 100% agree with what you wrote about having dozens of forums to watch. It's very annoying, and lists are a lot more convenient to monitor. Thomas ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
I don't know if a forum is the right answer but I would like to have a better way to organize information about deployments, operational best practices and any issues running OpenStack code in production environments. Maybe the answer is creating a few more mailing lists and irc channels. Having one email list and one irc channel for governing, design, dev, deployments and ops for 3 projects plus the 10 or so new project proposals seems like information overload to me. Just some thoughts --J On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 7:59 PM, Thomas Goirand tho...@goirand.fr wrote: On 05/03/2011 04:12 AM, Jordan Rinke wrote: I had a number of discussions with various people at the summit about creating a forum for openstack (forum.openstack.org) and everyone seemed to think it was a good idea especially for user support and discussions for people who are not likely to use a mailing list. So I have 2 questions... 1. Is anyone against creating a forum? 2. Does anyone have a specific forum software they suggest we use? There are tools which allow forums and lists to be seen as one, and users would just use the medium they like the most. I don't know if this would be possible on a list @launchpad though. Just my 2 cents, Thomas ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
