Re: [openstack-dev] [docs][ptls][install] Install guide vs. tutorial

[Petr Kovar]

On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 09:59:34 -0500
Jay S Bryant  wrote:

> 
> 
> On 9/29/2017 3:27 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote:
> > Excerpts from Petr Kovar's message of 2017-09-29 21:09:02 +0200:
> >> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 18:53:04 -0500
> >> Jay S Bryant  wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On 9/25/2017 3:47 AM, Alexandra Settle wrote:
> 
>    > I completely agree consistency is more important, than bike 
>  shedding over the
>    > name :)
>    > To be honest, it would be easier to change everything to ‘guide’ 
>  – seeing as
>    > all our URLs are ‘install-guide’.
>    > But that’s the lazy in me speaking.
>    >
>    > Industry wise – there does seem to be more of a trend towards 
>  ‘guide’ rather
>    > than ‘tutorial’. Although, that is at a cursory glance.
>    >
>    > I am happy to investigate further, if this matter is of some 
>  contention to
>    > people?
>    
>    This is the first time I'm hearing about "Install Tutorial". I'm 
>  also lazy, +1
>    with sticking to install guide.
>    
>  Just to clarify: https://docs.openstack.org/install-guide/ The link is 
>  “install-guide” but the actual title on the page is “OpenStack 
>  Installation Tutorial”.
> 
>  Apologies if I haven’t been clear enough in this thread! Context always 
>  helps :P
> 
> >>> Oy!  The URL says guide but the page says tutorial?  That is even more
> >>> confusing.  I think it would be good to make it consistent and just with
> >>> guide then.  All for your laziness when it leads to consistency.  :-)
> >> Yes, this inconsistency in document naming is totally something we need
> >> to change, hopefully based on the outcome of this discussion.
> >>
> >> At the PTG, I was leaning towards "tutorial" because previously, the docs
> >> team chose that term to distinguish an installation HOWTO (describing
> >> installing a PoC environment from packages) from a more general guide on
> >> installation (possibly documenting different methods that different
> >> audiences can use).
> >>
> >> But I could go with both.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> pk
> >>
> > Everyone seems rather flexible on this, so I think we just need someone
> > to pick a name.
> >
> > Using "tutorial" will involve renaming the directory containing all of
> > the content and updating the way that is published in openstack-manuals.
> >
> > Using "guide" will involve changing the contents of the documents
> > inside a few files in openstack-manuals to match where it is already
> > published, and we can do that with sed.
> >
> > My vote is to do the simple thing, and change the file contents:
> > https://review.openstack.org/508608
> >
> > Doug
> >
> +2
> 
> I think keeping it simple, if no one has strong objections, is the best 
> way to go.

Doug's patch has been approved and merged so we no longer use the word
"tutorial" in openstack-manuals. If project teams could go ahead and check
that their install docs use the correct terminology (installation guide, not
tutorial), that'd be much appreciated.

Thank you,
pk 

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Re: [openstack-dev] [docs][ptls][install] Install guide vs. tutorial

[Jay S Bryant]

On 9/29/2017 3:27 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote:

Excerpts from Petr Kovar's message of 2017-09-29 21:09:02 +0200:

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 18:53:04 -0500
Jay S Bryant  wrote:



On 9/25/2017 3:47 AM, Alexandra Settle wrote:
   
  > I completely agree consistency is more important, than bike shedding over the

  > name :)
  > To be honest, it would be easier to change everything to ‘guide’ – 
seeing as
  > all our URLs are ‘install-guide’.
  > But that’s the lazy in me speaking.
  >
  > Industry wise – there does seem to be more of a trend towards ‘guide’ 
rather
  > than ‘tutorial’. Although, that is at a cursory glance.
  >
  > I am happy to investigate further, if this matter is of some contention 
to
  > people?
  
  This is the first time I'm hearing about "Install Tutorial". I'm also lazy, +1

  with sticking to install guide.
  
Just to clarify: https://docs.openstack.org/install-guide/ The link is “install-guide” but the actual title on the page is “OpenStack Installation Tutorial”.


Apologies if I haven’t been clear enough in this thread! Context always helps :P


Oy!  The URL says guide but the page says tutorial?  That is even more
confusing.  I think it would be good to make it consistent and just with
guide then.  All for your laziness when it leads to consistency.  :-)

Yes, this inconsistency in document naming is totally something we need
to change, hopefully based on the outcome of this discussion.

At the PTG, I was leaning towards "tutorial" because previously, the docs
team chose that term to distinguish an installation HOWTO (describing
installing a PoC environment from packages) from a more general guide on
installation (possibly documenting different methods that different
audiences can use).

But I could go with both.

Cheers,
pk


Everyone seems rather flexible on this, so I think we just need someone
to pick a name.

Using "tutorial" will involve renaming the directory containing all of
the content and updating the way that is published in openstack-manuals.

Using "guide" will involve changing the contents of the documents
inside a few files in openstack-manuals to match where it is already
published, and we can do that with sed.

My vote is to do the simple thing, and change the file contents:
https://review.openstack.org/508608

Doug


+2

I think keeping it simple, if no one has strong objections, is the best 
way to go.


-Jay


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Re: [openstack-dev] [docs][ptls][install] Install guide vs. tutorial

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Petr Kovar's message of 2017-09-29 21:09:02 +0200:
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 18:53:04 -0500
> Jay S Bryant  wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > On 9/25/2017 3:47 AM, Alexandra Settle wrote:
> > >   
> > >  > I completely agree consistency is more important, than bike 
> > > shedding over the
> > >  > name :)
> > >  > To be honest, it would be easier to change everything to ‘guide’ – 
> > > seeing as
> > >  > all our URLs are ‘install-guide’.
> > >  > But that’s the lazy in me speaking.
> > >  >
> > >  > Industry wise – there does seem to be more of a trend towards 
> > > ‘guide’ rather
> > >  > than ‘tutorial’. Although, that is at a cursory glance.
> > >  >
> > >  > I am happy to investigate further, if this matter is of some 
> > > contention to
> > >  > people?
> > >  
> > >  This is the first time I'm hearing about "Install Tutorial". I'm 
> > > also lazy, +1
> > >  with sticking to install guide.
> > >  
> > > Just to clarify: https://docs.openstack.org/install-guide/ The link is 
> > > “install-guide” but the actual title on the page is “OpenStack 
> > > Installation Tutorial”.
> > >
> > > Apologies if I haven’t been clear enough in this thread! Context always 
> > > helps :P
> > >
> > Oy!  The URL says guide but the page says tutorial?  That is even more 
> > confusing.  I think it would be good to make it consistent and just with 
> > guide then.  All for your laziness when it leads to consistency.  :-)
> 
> Yes, this inconsistency in document naming is totally something we need
> to change, hopefully based on the outcome of this discussion.
> 
> At the PTG, I was leaning towards "tutorial" because previously, the docs
> team chose that term to distinguish an installation HOWTO (describing
> installing a PoC environment from packages) from a more general guide on
> installation (possibly documenting different methods that different
> audiences can use).
> 
> But I could go with both.
> 
> Cheers,
> pk
> 

Everyone seems rather flexible on this, so I think we just need someone
to pick a name.

Using "tutorial" will involve renaming the directory containing all of
the content and updating the way that is published in openstack-manuals.

Using "guide" will involve changing the contents of the documents
inside a few files in openstack-manuals to match where it is already
published, and we can do that with sed.

My vote is to do the simple thing, and change the file contents:
https://review.openstack.org/508608

Doug


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Re: [openstack-dev] [docs][ptls][install] Install guide vs. tutorial

[Petr Kovar]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 18:53:04 -0500
Jay S Bryant  wrote:

> 
> 
> On 9/25/2017 3:47 AM, Alexandra Settle wrote:
> >   
> >  > I completely agree consistency is more important, than bike shedding 
> > over the
> >  > name :)
> >  > To be honest, it would be easier to change everything to ‘guide’ – 
> > seeing as
> >  > all our URLs are ‘install-guide’.
> >  > But that’s the lazy in me speaking.
> >  >
> >  > Industry wise – there does seem to be more of a trend towards 
> > ‘guide’ rather
> >  > than ‘tutorial’. Although, that is at a cursory glance.
> >  >
> >  > I am happy to investigate further, if this matter is of some 
> > contention to
> >  > people?
> >  
> >  This is the first time I'm hearing about "Install Tutorial". I'm also 
> > lazy, +1
> >  with sticking to install guide.
> >  
> > Just to clarify: https://docs.openstack.org/install-guide/ The link is 
> > “install-guide” but the actual title on the page is “OpenStack Installation 
> > Tutorial”.
> >
> > Apologies if I haven’t been clear enough in this thread! Context always 
> > helps :P
> >
> Oy!  The URL says guide but the page says tutorial?  That is even more 
> confusing.  I think it would be good to make it consistent and just with 
> guide then.  All for your laziness when it leads to consistency.  :-)

Yes, this inconsistency in document naming is totally something we need
to change, hopefully based on the outcome of this discussion.

At the PTG, I was leaning towards "tutorial" because previously, the docs
team chose that term to distinguish an installation HOWTO (describing
installing a PoC environment from packages) from a more general guide on
installation (possibly documenting different methods that different
audiences can use).

But I could go with both.

Cheers,
pk

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Re: [openstack-dev] [docs][ptls][install] Install guide vs. tutorial

[Jay S Bryant]

On 9/25/2017 3:47 AM, Alexandra Settle wrote:
  
 > I completely agree consistency is more important, than bike shedding over the

 > name :)
 > To be honest, it would be easier to change everything to ‘guide’ – 
seeing as
 > all our URLs are ‘install-guide’.
 > But that’s the lazy in me speaking.
 >
 > Industry wise – there does seem to be more of a trend towards ‘guide’ 
rather
 > than ‘tutorial’. Although, that is at a cursory glance.
 >
 > I am happy to investigate further, if this matter is of some contention 
to
 > people?
 
 This is the first time I'm hearing about "Install Tutorial". I'm also lazy, +1

 with sticking to install guide.
 
Just to clarify: https://docs.openstack.org/install-guide/ The link is “install-guide” but the actual title on the page is “OpenStack Installation Tutorial”.


Apologies if I haven’t been clear enough in this thread! Context always helps :P

Oy!  The URL says guide but the page says tutorial?  That is even more 
confusing.  I think it would be good to make it consistent and just with 
guide then.  All for your laziness when it leads to consistency.  :-)


Jay

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Re: [openstack-dev] [docs][ptls][install] Install guide vs. tutorial

[Alexandra Settle]

 
> I completely agree consistency is more important, than bike shedding over 
the
> name :)
> To be honest, it would be easier to change everything to ‘guide’ – seeing 
as
> all our URLs are ‘install-guide’.
> But that’s the lazy in me speaking.
> 
> Industry wise – there does seem to be more of a trend towards ‘guide’ 
rather
> than ‘tutorial’. Although, that is at a cursory glance.
> 
> I am happy to investigate further, if this matter is of some contention to
> people?

This is the first time I'm hearing about "Install Tutorial". I'm also lazy, 
+1
with sticking to install guide.

Just to clarify: https://docs.openstack.org/install-guide/ The link is 
“install-guide” but the actual title on the page is “OpenStack Installation 
Tutorial”.

Apologies if I haven’t been clear enough in this thread! Context always helps :P

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Re: [openstack-dev] [docs][ptls][install] Install guide vs. tutorial

[Mike Perez]

On 11:33 Sep 21, Alexandra Settle wrote:
> > For me, a tutorial is something that teaches. So after I've gone through a
> > tutorial I would expect to have learned how installs work and would
> > just know
> > these things (with an occasional need to reference a few points) going
> > forward.
> >
> > A guide to me is something that I know I will use whenever I need to do
> > something. So for me, having an installation guide is what I would
> > expect
> > from this as every time I need to do a package based install, I am
> > going to pull
> > up the guide to go through it.
> >
>Interesting.
> 
> So Sean has the opposite impression from Eric and I.  Yeah, that does 
> make it seem like reaching a consensus will be difficult.
> 
> At that point I think consistency becomes the most important thing.
> 
> 
> I completely agree consistency is more important, than bike shedding over the
> name :)
> To be honest, it would be easier to change everything to ‘guide’ – seeing as
> all our URLs are ‘install-guide’.
> But that’s the lazy in me speaking.
> 
> Industry wise – there does seem to be more of a trend towards ‘guide’ rather
> than ‘tutorial’. Although, that is at a cursory glance.
> 
> I am happy to investigate further, if this matter is of some contention to
> people?

This is the first time I'm hearing about "Install Tutorial". I'm also lazy, +1
with sticking to install guide.

-- 
Mike Perez


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Re: [openstack-dev] [docs][ptls][install] Install guide vs. tutorial

[Alexandra Settle]

> For me, a tutorial is something that teaches. So after I've gone through a
> tutorial I would expect to have learned how installs work and would just 
know
> these things (with an occasional need to reference a few points) going 
forward.
>
> A guide to me is something that I know I will use whenever I need to do
> something. So for me, having an installation guide is what I would expect
> from this as every time I need to do a package based install, I am going 
to pull
> up the guide to go through it.
>
   Interesting.

So Sean has the opposite impression from Eric and I.  Yeah, that does 
make it seem like reaching a consensus will be difficult.

At that point I think consistency becomes the most important thing.


I completely agree consistency is more important, than bike shedding over the 
name :)
To be honest, it would be easier to change everything to ‘guide’ – seeing as 
all our URLs are ‘install-guide’.
But that’s the lazy in me speaking.

Industry wise – there does seem to be more of a trend towards ‘guide’ rather 
than ‘tutorial’. Although, that is at a cursory glance.

I am happy to investigate further, if this matter is of some contention to 
people?

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Re: [openstack-dev] [docs][ptls][install] Install guide vs. tutorial

[Jay S Bryant]

On 9/19/2017 4:57 PM, Sean McGinnis wrote:

On 9/19/17, 2:43 PM, "Eric Fried"  wrote:

 Alex-
 
 	Regardless of what the dictionary might say, people associate the word

 "Tutorial" with a set of step-by-step instructions to do a thing.
 "Guide" would be a more general term.
 
 	I think of a "Tutorial" as being a *single* representative path through

 a process.  A "Guide" could supply different alternatives.
 
 	I expect a "Tutorial" to get me from start to finish.  A "Guide" might

 help me along the way, but could be sparser.
 
 	In summary, I believe the word "Tutorial" implies a very specific

 thing, so we should use it if and only if the doc is exactly that.

I don't think we'll get consensus on this, as my association with those words
do not match Eric's. :)

For me, a tutorial is something that teaches. So after I've gone through a
tutorial I would expect to have learned how installs work and would just know
these things (with an occasional need to reference a few points) going forward.

A guide to me is something that I know I will use whenever I need to do
something. So for me, having an installation guide is what I would expect
from this as every time I need to do a package based install, I am going to pull
up the guide to go through it.

Sean

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Interesting.

So Sean has the opposite impression from Eric and I.  Yeah, that does 
make it seem like reaching a consensus will be difficult.


At that point I think consistency becomes the most important thing.

Jay

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Re: [openstack-dev] [docs][ptls][install] Install guide vs. tutorial

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Sean McGinnis's message of 2017-09-19 16:57:40 -0500:
> > > On 9/19/17, 2:43 PM, "Eric Fried"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Alex-
> > > 
> > > Regardless of what the dictionary might say, people associate the 
> > > word
> > > "Tutorial" with a set of step-by-step instructions to do a thing.
> > > "Guide" would be a more general term.
> > > 
> > > I think of a "Tutorial" as being a *single* representative path 
> > > through
> > > a process.  A "Guide" could supply different alternatives.
> > > 
> > > I expect a "Tutorial" to get me from start to finish.  A "Guide" 
> > > might
> > > help me along the way, but could be sparser.
> > > 
> > > In summary, I believe the word "Tutorial" implies a very specific
> > > thing, so we should use it if and only if the doc is exactly that.
> 
> I don't think we'll get consensus on this, as my association with those words
> do not match Eric's. :)
> 
> For me, a tutorial is something that teaches. So after I've gone through a
> tutorial I would expect to have learned how installs work and would just know
> these things (with an occasional need to reference a few points) going 
> forward.
> 
> A guide to me is something that I know I will use whenever I need to do
> something. So for me, having an installation guide is what I would expect
> from this as every time I need to do a package based install, I am going to 
> pull
> up the guide to go through it.
> 
> Sean
> 

One of the other distinctions I remember being made when this came
up last week was that the documentation we have about installation
only includes information about one of many possible ways to install
the components that it covers.

What do other projects call the document that explains similar
information? Is there some sort of general consensus in the rest of the
open source community about what term to use?

Doug

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Re: [openstack-dev] [docs][ptls][install] Install guide vs. tutorial

[Sean McGinnis]

> > On 9/19/17, 2:43 PM, "Eric Fried"  wrote:
> >
> > Alex-
> > 
> > Regardless of what the dictionary might say, people associate 
> > the word
> > "Tutorial" with a set of step-by-step instructions to do a thing.
> > "Guide" would be a more general term.
> > 
> > I think of a "Tutorial" as being a *single* representative path 
> > through
> > a process.  A "Guide" could supply different alternatives.
> > 
> > I expect a "Tutorial" to get me from start to finish.  A 
> > "Guide" might
> > help me along the way, but could be sparser.
> > 
> > In summary, I believe the word "Tutorial" implies a very 
> > specific
> > thing, so we should use it if and only if the doc is exactly that.

I don't think we'll get consensus on this, as my association with those words
do not match Eric's. :)

For me, a tutorial is something that teaches. So after I've gone through a
tutorial I would expect to have learned how installs work and would just know
these things (with an occasional need to reference a few points) going forward.

A guide to me is something that I know I will use whenever I need to do
something. So for me, having an installation guide is what I would expect
from this as every time I need to do a package based install, I am going to pull
up the guide to go through it.

Sean

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Re: [openstack-dev] [docs][ptls][install] Install guide vs. tutorial

[Eric Fried]

Alex-

    The non-list reply was deliberate.  I honestly haven't looked at the
docs in question, so really my answer was just me being pedantic about
how I interpret those two words in general when I see them in technical
literature.  Jay's concerns about consistency are probably more important.

    However, posting back to the list, as requested.

Thanks,
Eric

On 09/19/2017 03:49 PM, Alexandra Settle wrote:
> Hi Eric,
>
> I’m not entirely too sure if you meant to just reply to me regarding this 
> thread? :)
>
> However, it would be helpful if you could bring it back to the mailing list 
> to highlight your concerns and continue this discussion :)
>
> Thanks for your reply,
>
> Alex
>
> On 9/19/17, 2:43 PM, "Eric Fried"  wrote:
>
> Alex-
> 
>   Regardless of what the dictionary might say, people associate the word
> "Tutorial" with a set of step-by-step instructions to do a thing.
> "Guide" would be a more general term.
> 
>   I think of a "Tutorial" as being a *single* representative path through
> a process.  A "Guide" could supply different alternatives.
> 
>   I expect a "Tutorial" to get me from start to finish.  A "Guide" might
> help me along the way, but could be sparser.
> 
>   In summary, I believe the word "Tutorial" implies a very specific
> thing, so we should use it if and only if the doc is exactly that.
> 
>   Eric
> 
> On 09/19/2017 07:23 AM, Alexandra Settle wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I hope everyone had a safe trip home after the PTG!
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Since the doc-migration, quite a number or individuals have had
> > questions regarding the usage of “Install Tutorial” vs. “Install Guide”
> > in our documentation in the openstack-manuals repo and in the
> > project-specific repos. We (the doc team) agree there should be
> > consistency across all repos and would like to bring this to the table
> > to discuss.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Previously, we have used the phrase ‘tutorial’ as the literal
> > translation of a tutorial is that of a /‘paper, book, film, or computer
> > program that provides practical information about a specific subject.’/
> > 
> > / /
> > 
> > Thoughts?
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Alex
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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> 
>


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Re: [openstack-dev] [docs][ptls][install] Install guide vs. tutorial

[Jay S Bryant]

Alex,

I have been working on getting updates to the Cinder Installation 
Tutorial ... Hadn't really even considered the word Tutorial in there to 
be honest as it just fit.  So, I think the important thing is that the 
pages be consistent in the terminology.  It looks like the common top 
level documentation uses 'tutorial'.  I think we would want all the 
other pages to follow the same convention.


Jay


On 9/19/2017 7:23 AM, Alexandra Settle wrote:


Hi everyone,

I hope everyone had a safe trip home after the PTG!

Since the doc-migration, quite a number or individuals have had 
questions regarding the usage of “Install Tutorial” vs. “Install 
Guide” in our documentation in the openstack-manuals repo and in the 
project-specific repos. We (the doc team) agree there should be 
consistency across all repos and would like to bring this to the table 
to discuss.


Previously, we have used the phrase ‘tutorial’ as the literal 
translation of a tutorial is that of a /‘paper, book, film, or 
computer program that provides practical information about a specific 
subject.’/


//

Thoughts?

Alex



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