Re: [openstack-dev] [oslo] Removing Nova specifics from oslo.log

[Ronald Bradford]

Julien,

As mentioned I have been working thru the App Agnostic Parameters blueprint
that will cover review of context attributes and kwarg specific use of
oslo.log.
Presently due to legacy nova usage this current pattern is needed as it.

There was also a discussion at Austin with Michael Still regarding our work
with Nova to enhance usage of resource uuids that will enable some
subsequent deprecated usage of instance specific context and kwargs, but
this requires some pre-requisite work.


Regards

Ronald

Ronald Bradford

Web Site: http://ronaldbradford.com
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IRC: rbradfor


On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 4:11 AM, Julien Danjou  wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 14 2016, Joshua Harlow wrote:
>
> > Well not entirely IMHO. I think oslo should obviously be easy to use
> inside
> > openstack and as well outside, with preference to inside openstack
> (especially
> > for libraries that start with 'oslo.*'). When we can make it more useable
> > outside openstack (and without hurting the mission of openstack being the
> > primary target for 'oslo.*' libraries) then obviously we should try to
> do our
> > best to...
> >
> > Will all the oslo.* libraries as they exist be forever perfect at a
> given point
> > in time, no. We can always do better, which is where the community comes
> in :)
>
> I tend to agree with you Josh, though you might want to keep in mind
> that OpenStack is now composed of 54 teams and even more projects. So at
> this stage making libraries "for OpenStack" is going to become a very
> vague definition as the need for generic code is going to increase.
>
> --
> Julien Danjou
> /* Free Software hacker
>https://julien.danjou.info */
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [oslo] Removing Nova specifics from oslo.log

[Matt Riedemann]

On 4/15/2016 3:11 AM, Julien Danjou wrote:

On Thu, Apr 14 2016, Joshua Harlow wrote:


Well not entirely IMHO. I think oslo should obviously be easy to use inside
openstack and as well outside, with preference to inside openstack (especially
for libraries that start with 'oslo.*'). When we can make it more useable
outside openstack (and without hurting the mission of openstack being the
primary target for 'oslo.*' libraries) then obviously we should try to do our
best to...

Will all the oslo.* libraries as they exist be forever perfect at a given point
in time, no. We can always do better, which is where the community comes in :)


I tend to agree with you Josh, though you might want to keep in mind
that OpenStack is now composed of 54 teams and even more projects. So at
this stage making libraries "for OpenStack" is going to become a very
vague definition as the need for generic code is going to increase.



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As Sean and Michael and others have said, this is legacy code that could 
be cleaned up. I don't really care how, but however it's done it has to 
be transparent to consumers that we've made any kind of switch since we 
can't make a backward incompatible change in this behavior that's been 
around for a long time and is used for debugging.


--

Thanks,

Matt Riedemann


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Re: [openstack-dev] [oslo] Removing Nova specifics from oslo.log

[Julien Danjou]

On Thu, Apr 14 2016, Joshua Harlow wrote:

> Well not entirely IMHO. I think oslo should obviously be easy to use inside
> openstack and as well outside, with preference to inside openstack (especially
> for libraries that start with 'oslo.*'). When we can make it more useable
> outside openstack (and without hurting the mission of openstack being the
> primary target for 'oslo.*' libraries) then obviously we should try to do our
> best to...
>
> Will all the oslo.* libraries as they exist be forever perfect at a given 
> point
> in time, no. We can always do better, which is where the community comes in :)

I tend to agree with you Josh, though you might want to keep in mind
that OpenStack is now composed of 54 teams and even more projects. So at
this stage making libraries "for OpenStack" is going to become a very
vague definition as the need for generic code is going to increase.

-- 
Julien Danjou
/* Free Software hacker
   https://julien.danjou.info */


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Re: [openstack-dev] [oslo] Removing Nova specifics from oslo.log

[Joshua Harlow]

Victor Stinner wrote:

Le 13/04/2016 22:54, Julien Danjou a écrit :

There's a bunch of projects that have no intention of using
oslo.context, so depending and referring to it by default is something
I'd love to fade away.


It looks like Oslo has an identity crisis :-)


Well not entirely IMHO. I think oslo should obviously be easy to use 
inside openstack and as well outside, with preference to inside 
openstack (especially for libraries that start with 'oslo.*'). When we 
can make it more useable outside openstack (and without hurting the 
mission of openstack being the primary target for 'oslo.*' libraries) 
then obviously we should try to do our best to...


Will all the oslo.* libraries as they exist be forever perfect at a 
given point in time, no. We can always do better, which is where the 
community comes in :)




Basically the question looks like: should we make Oslo easier to use
outside "OpenStack"? If I summarized correctly the question, my answer
is YES!

Victor

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Re: [openstack-dev] [oslo] Removing Nova specifics from oslo.log

[Victor Stinner]

Le 13/04/2016 22:54, Julien Danjou a écrit :

There's a bunch of projects that have no intention of using
oslo.context, so depending and referring to it by default is something
I'd love to fade away.


It looks like Oslo has an identity crisis :-)

Basically the question looks like: should we make Oslo easier to use 
outside "OpenStack"? If I summarized correctly the question, my answer 
is YES!


Victor

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Re: [openstack-dev] [oslo] Removing Nova specifics from oslo.log

[Julien Danjou]

On Wed, Apr 13 2016, Doug Hellmann wrote:

>> I'm not sure why oslo.context is an issue though. That's mostly about
>> putting in the common information about the identity of the requester
>> into the stream.
>
> The context is also the place, frequently, where we know the id of the
> resource on which action is being taken.

There's a bunch of projects that have no intention of using
oslo.context, so depending and referring to it by default is something
I'd love to fade away.

-- 
Julien Danjou
/* Free Software hacker
   https://julien.danjou.info */


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Re: [openstack-dev] [oslo] Removing Nova specifics from oslo.log

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Sean Dague's message of 2016-04-11 10:16:23 -0400:
> On 04/11/2016 10:08 AM, Ed Leafe wrote:
> > On 04/11/2016 08:38 AM, Julien Danjou wrote:
> > 
> >> There's a lot of assumption in oslo.log about Nova, such as talking
> >> about "instance" and "context" in a lot of the code by default. There's
> >> even a dependency on oslo.context. >.<
> >>
> >> That's being an issue for projects not being Nova, where we end up
> >> having configuration options talking about "instances" and with default
> >> values referring to that.
> >> I'm at least taking that as being a serious UX issue for telemetry
> >> projects.
> >>
> >> I'd love to sanitize that library a bit. So, is this an option, or would
> >> I be better off starting something new?
> > 
> > The nova team spent a lot of time in Mitaka starting to clean up the
> > config options that were scattered all over the codebase, and improve
> > the help text for each of them so that you didn't need to grep the
> > source code to find out what they did.
> > 
> > I could see a similar effort for oslo.log (and maybe other oslo
> > projects), and I would be happy to help out.
> 
> This isn't so much about scattered options, oslo.log options are all in
> one place already, it's about the application specific ones that are
> embedded.
> 
> I agree that "instance" being embedded all the way back to oslo.log is
> weird. Ideally we'd have something like "resource" that if specified
> would be the primary resource the request was acting on. Or could even
> just build some custom loggers Nova side to inject the instance when we
> have it.
> 
> I'm not sure why oslo.context is an issue though. That's mostly about
> putting in the common information about the identity of the requester
> into the stream.

The context is also the place, frequently, where we know the id of the
resource on which action is being taken.

Doug

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Re: [openstack-dev] [oslo] Removing Nova specifics from oslo.log

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Julien Danjou's message of 2016-04-11 15:38:44 +0200:
> Hi,
> 
> There's a lot of assumption in oslo.log about Nova, such as talking
> about "instance" and "context" in a lot of the code by default. There's
> even a dependency on oslo.context. >.<
> 
> That's being an issue for projects not being Nova, where we end up
> having configuration options talking about "instances" and with default
> values referring to that.
> I'm at least taking that as being a serious UX issue for telemetry
> projects.
> 
> I'd love to sanitize that library a bit. So, is this an option, or would
> I be better off starting something new?
> 

I refer you to this as-yet-unimplemented spec from kilo. :-)

http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/oslo-specs/specs/kilo/app-agnostic-logging-parameters.html

Ronald and I were going to spend some time this cycle working on it. We
would love to have your help.

Doug

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Re: [openstack-dev] [oslo] Removing Nova specifics from oslo.log

[Michael Still]

On 12 Apr 2016 12:19 AM, "Sean Dague"  wrote:
>
> On 04/11/2016 10:08 AM, Ed Leafe wrote:
> > On 04/11/2016 08:38 AM, Julien Danjou wrote:
> >
> >> There's a lot of assumption in oslo.log about Nova, such as talking
> >> about "instance" and "context" in a lot of the code by default. There's
> >> even a dependency on oslo.context. >.<
> >>
> >> That's being an issue for projects not being Nova, where we end up
> >> having configuration options talking about "instances" and with default
> >> values referring to that.
> >> I'm at least taking that as being a serious UX issue for telemetry
> >> projects.
> >>
> >> I'd love to sanitize that library a bit. So, is this an option, or
would
> >> I be better off starting something new?
> >
> > The nova team spent a lot of time in Mitaka starting to clean up the
> > config options that were scattered all over the codebase, and improve
> > the help text for each of them so that you didn't need to grep the
> > source code to find out what they did.
> >
> > I could see a similar effort for oslo.log (and maybe other oslo
> > projects), and I would be happy to help out.
>
> This isn't so much about scattered options, oslo.log options are all in
> one place already, it's about the application specific ones that are
> embedded.
>
> I agree that "instance" being embedded all the way back to oslo.log is
> weird. Ideally we'd have something like "resource" that if specified
> would be the primary resource the request was acting on. Or could even
> just build some custom loggers Nova side to inject the instance when we
> have it.

Instance was put in there a long time ago, before Oslo existed. It was then
just forklifted out blindly. I like the idea of changing to something like
"resource" or even better "resources", but we do need to present this
information in a structured way. We need to remember this was added because
of specific concerns around operational usability of or logging.

> I'm not sure why oslo.context is an issue though. That's mostly about
> putting in the common information about the identity of the requester
> into the stream.

Michael
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Re: [openstack-dev] [oslo] Removing Nova specifics from oslo.log

[Sean Dague]

On 04/11/2016 10:08 AM, Ed Leafe wrote:
> On 04/11/2016 08:38 AM, Julien Danjou wrote:
> 
>> There's a lot of assumption in oslo.log about Nova, such as talking
>> about "instance" and "context" in a lot of the code by default. There's
>> even a dependency on oslo.context. >.<
>>
>> That's being an issue for projects not being Nova, where we end up
>> having configuration options talking about "instances" and with default
>> values referring to that.
>> I'm at least taking that as being a serious UX issue for telemetry
>> projects.
>>
>> I'd love to sanitize that library a bit. So, is this an option, or would
>> I be better off starting something new?
> 
> The nova team spent a lot of time in Mitaka starting to clean up the
> config options that were scattered all over the codebase, and improve
> the help text for each of them so that you didn't need to grep the
> source code to find out what they did.
> 
> I could see a similar effort for oslo.log (and maybe other oslo
> projects), and I would be happy to help out.

This isn't so much about scattered options, oslo.log options are all in
one place already, it's about the application specific ones that are
embedded.

I agree that "instance" being embedded all the way back to oslo.log is
weird. Ideally we'd have something like "resource" that if specified
would be the primary resource the request was acting on. Or could even
just build some custom loggers Nova side to inject the instance when we
have it.

I'm not sure why oslo.context is an issue though. That's mostly about
putting in the common information about the identity of the requester
into the stream.

-Sean

-- 
Sean Dague
http://dague.net

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Re: [openstack-dev] [oslo] Removing Nova specifics from oslo.log

[Ed Leafe]

On 04/11/2016 08:38 AM, Julien Danjou wrote:

> There's a lot of assumption in oslo.log about Nova, such as talking
> about "instance" and "context" in a lot of the code by default. There's
> even a dependency on oslo.context. >.<
> 
> That's being an issue for projects not being Nova, where we end up
> having configuration options talking about "instances" and with default
> values referring to that.
> I'm at least taking that as being a serious UX issue for telemetry
> projects.
> 
> I'd love to sanitize that library a bit. So, is this an option, or would
> I be better off starting something new?

The nova team spent a lot of time in Mitaka starting to clean up the
config options that were scattered all over the codebase, and improve
the help text for each of them so that you didn't need to grep the
source code to find out what they did.

I could see a similar effort for oslo.log (and maybe other oslo
projects), and I would be happy to help out.

-- 

-- Ed Leafe



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