Re: [Openvpn-devel] Summary of the IRC meeting (28th Jan 2010)

[Peter Stuge]

Samuli Seppänen wrote:
> > OpenID
> 
> I'm somewhat familiar with OpenID but I need to take another look
> at it. SF.net supports it, so the same OpenID could be used for the
> SF.net "openvpn" project (should we make use of it) as well as the
> community site Trac instance.

SF can be an OpenID provider when that is enabled (I belive each user
needs to do so), but I'm not sure if SF accepts external OpenID
providers. The Trac auth plugin would have no problem accepting
logins with SF OpenIDs.


//Peter

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Summary of the IRC meeting (28th Jan 2010)

[Samuli Seppänen]

> On Jan 31, 2010, at 21:35:01, Karl O. Pinc wrote:
>
>   
>> On 01/31/2010 11:13:06 AM, Eric F Crist wrote:
>> 
>>> I do not feel the forums and mailing list need to be synchronized. 
>>> They are two different mediums, and should be treated as such. 
>>>   
>> I disagree.  (Although this has no impact on any operational decision
>> because so far as I know there's no good choice of software.
>> Maybe mailman 3.0 will someday deliver.)
>>
>> Forms and archived mailing lists are the exact same medium.  They may 
>> happen to have different interfaces for input and output, but the 
>> interfaces are in no way mutually exclusive.  The end result is a 
>> threaded archive viewable on the web in either case.
>>
>> If you've software that allows input via web page and/or email
>> and output via web interface and/or email is it a forum or a mailing
>> list?  It's both.  My point being it's then really silly to have
>> 2 different archives depending on whether the data went in or out via
>> an email or a web page.
>>
>> There should be only one place to look for archived answers no
>> matter how the questions are asked and answers supplied.  To
>> do otherwise leads to duplication of effort and difficulty in
>> searching.
>> 
>
> I need to correct myself.  The interface is where the userbase is split, not 
> the backend.  I've found a supported plugin for vBulletin which allows the 
> mailing list and forum to act as a single repository of knowledge.  It uses 
> mailman on the backend, and allows for posts to the forum to be sent and 
> properly threaded on the mailing list, and vice-versa.  vBulletin also has 
> good RSS support, so we can pipe that into RSS with the channel bot.
>
> This plugin, I think, would suit the needs here perfectly.  This week I'm 
> going to look into it further and do some testing.  If you (or anyone else) 
> has additional input, please let me know.  The only question in my mind is 
> how things such as polls and the like would be relayed on the mailing lists, 
> if at all.  There are some things that would likely not make it to the list, 
> but we can work with those as we go.
>
> ---
> Eric Crist
>
>   
I agree with Eric. I think we should have forums _and_ mailinglists, as
there's a clear demand for both. They should just be kept in sync so
that the whole content is easily searchable. The vBulletin plugin which
Eric sounds like a nice solution.

-- 
Samuli Seppänen
Community Manager
OpenVPN Technologies, Inc

irc freenode net: mattock

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Summary of the IRC meeting (28th Jan 2010)

[Peter Stuge]

Karl O. Pinc wrote:
> > I do not feel the forums and mailing list need to be synchronized.
> > They are two different mediums, and should be treated as such.
> 
> I disagree.

I would also like to unify forums and mailing lists, for purely
egotistical reasons - I really dislike the web.

My idea for this since many years is to have an IMAP interface to
forum databases, so that an email program can be used to access the
forum contents. It never progressed far beyond the idea stage though,
except maybe for small involvement with the BincIMAP project.
BincIMAP has backend abstraction so a SQL backend should be kindof
straightforward.

I believe this would help usability tremendously - I think a lot more
users would be able to interface with forums if they had a decent
interface without so much clutter.


//Peter

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Summary of the IRC meeting (28th Jan 2010)

[Karl O. Pinc]

On 01/31/2010 11:13:06 AM, Eric F Crist wrote:
> I do not feel the forums and mailing list need to be synchronized. 
> They are two different mediums, and should be treated as such. 

I disagree.  (Although this has no impact on any operational decision
because so far as I know there's no good choice of software.
Maybe mailman 3.0 will someday deliver.)

Forms and archived mailing lists are the exact same medium.  They may 
happen to have different interfaces for input and output, but the 
interfaces are in no way mutually exclusive.  The end result is a 
threaded archive viewable on the web in either case.

If you've software that allows input via web page and/or email
and output via web interface and/or email is it a forum or a mailing
list?  It's both.  My point being it's then really silly to have
2 different archives depending on whether the data went in or out via
an email or a web page.

There should be only one place to look for archived answers no
matter how the questions are asked and answers supplied.  To
do otherwise leads to duplication of effort and difficulty in
searching.

Regards,

Karl 
Free Software:  "You don't pay back, you pay forward."
 -- Robert A. Heinlein

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Summary of the IRC meeting (28th Jan 2010)

[Eric F Crist]

On Jan 31, 2010, at 11:13:06, Eric F Crist wrote:

> On Jan 31, 2010, at 09:39:07, Alon Bar-Lev wrote:
> 
>> Well,
>> I can probably speak on my behalf...
>> I won't use forums, so no help from me if traffic is diverted into forums.
>> 
>> Alon.
> 
> Understandable, but I don't recall anyone basing the forums solely on your 
> support.  There is no reason 'not' to do something simply due to a few users' 
> lack of interest in a particular venue.  The fact of the matter is there are 
> forum users, mailing list users, and IRC users.  It is foolish to omit one 
> group or another.
> 
> While it's hard to filter out, the forums last year, the first year of 
> operation, received ~330,000 page views from 13,833 unique IP addresses.  
> This year (not quite one month), it has received ~38,000 page views from 
> 2,796 unique IP addresses.  I've eliminated the largest viewers with obscene 
> view counts, as they are likely bots.  The forum currently has 436 posts in 
> 140 topics, none of those being spam, as it is a moderated forum.  There are 
> 126 users with one post, 56 of which have 2 or more.
> 
> The openvpn-users mailing list had 3,349 posts in about 800 threads (quick 
> sample).  In contract, the first year of operation of the mailing list 
> received 334 posts with a sharp increase near the end of the second year.  
> The forum is currently on pace to at least match that level of traffic, 
> possibly exceed it.
> 
> I do not feel the forums and mailing list need to be synchronized.  They are 
> two different mediums, and should be treated as such.  Certain bits of data 
> can be shared, as forum entries have been mentioned on the mailing list and 
> mailing list messages/threads have been mentioned on the forum.
> 
> Just my 2¢ worth.

I did just find this for vBulletin.  It doesn't support vBulletin 4, but we 
could probably update it, if it isn't being worked on already: 
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=151222

---
Eric Crist

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Summary of the IRC meeting (28th Jan 2010)

[Peter Stuge]

Samuli Seppänen wrote:
> Decided to start with a single Trac-based site for the whole
> community rather than have separate user/developer sites.

I think this is a good way to get some content going, even if it
turns out that the solution is inadequate sometime in the future.


> Discussed community site spam prevention in some length:
> 
> * There is an anti-spam plugin for Trac (see below)
> * A proper user registration process needs to be chosen - not too
>   bureaucratical but not too automated, either

In this context I'd like to suggest accepting OpenID login in Trac.

When I first learned about OpenID I was very sceptical, but now that
I have implemented it for one Trac I actually really like it.

For those not yet familiar with OpenID, the idea is to let a web site
(really any web site) provide authentication service for your users.
OpenID specifies the API used between service (Trac) and
authenticator (other web site) and this way, users only need to log
in at one place.

This sounds like a gaping hole, but in combination with email address
verification before allowing write access in Trac it is pretty
efficient - and convenient.

Many different web sites are OpenID providers, and there are various
packages available for setting up your own OpenID provider on a URL
that you control.

To log in, you give the URL to that OpenID provider (which can be any
web page, OpenID provider info can be added in meta tags) and then
you log in over there, and finally Trac checks with $overthere that
you are logged in.

I think the email address verification part is important.


http://bitbucket.org/Dalius/authopenid-plugin/

(I have an ebuild in my overlay at http://stuge.se/overlay.txt)


Alon Bar-Lev wrote:
> Trac is promises to provide all but provides none, I really don't
> know which project you managed with Trac, but without ticket
> dependencies

There's a plugin for it:

http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/MasterTicketsPlugin


> and without proper CC lists

Another plugin:

http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/TracNotification


> and workflow it is difficult to manage a real project.

Hm - please expand on what you mean by workflow?


> 2. ViewVC/ViewGIT/Whatever - Browse code.

I agree that e.g. git-web is much nicer than Trac's source viewer but
again it's nice to have something integrated.


//Peter

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Summary of the IRC meeting (28th Jan 2010)

[Eric F Crist]

On Jan 31, 2010, at 09:39:07, Alon Bar-Lev wrote:

> Well,
> I can probably speak on my behalf...
> I won't use forums, so no help from me if traffic is diverted into forums.
> 
> Alon.

Understandable, but I don't recall anyone basing the forums solely on your 
support.  There is no reason 'not' to do something simply due to a few users' 
lack of interest in a particular venue.  The fact of the matter is there are 
forum users, mailing list users, and IRC users.  It is foolish to omit one 
group or another.

While it's hard to filter out, the forums last year, the first year of 
operation, received ~330,000 page views from 13,833 unique IP addresses.  This 
year (not quite one month), it has received ~38,000 page views from 2,796 
unique IP addresses.  I've eliminated the largest viewers with obscene view 
counts, as they are likely bots.  The forum currently has 436 posts in 140 
topics, none of those being spam, as it is a moderated forum.  There are 126 
users with one post, 56 of which have 2 or more.

The openvpn-users mailing list had 3,349 posts in about 800 threads (quick 
sample).  In contract, the first year of operation of the mailing list received 
334 posts with a sharp increase near the end of the second year.  The forum is 
currently on pace to at least match that level of traffic, possibly exceed it.

I do not feel the forums and mailing list need to be synchronized.  They are 
two different mediums, and should be treated as such.  Certain bits of data can 
be shared, as forum entries have been mentioned on the mailing list and mailing 
list messages/threads have been mentioned on the forum.

Just my 2¢ worth.
---
Eric Crist

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Summary of the IRC meeting (28th Jan 2010)

[Alon Bar-Lev]

Well,
I can probably speak on my behalf...
I won't use forums, so no help from me if traffic is diverted into forums.

Alon.

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 5:29 PM, David Sommerseth
 wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 31/01/10 15:41, Eric F Crist wrote:
>> On Jan 31, 2010, at 06:59:10, Alon Bar-Lev wrote:
>>
>> [ snip ]
>>
>>> You are better use separate products for each category.
>>
>> [ snip ]
>>
>>> 5. Forums... Why not mailing list with archive? As it always had been?
>>> And use mailman?
>>
>> In regards to forums, not everyone wants to use a single source of 
>> information.  The mailing lists have been around for quite some time, yet 
>> IRC has 80-100 users at any given time, and the current forum, 
>> http://ovpnforum.com, has a number of users.  If the mailing list was the 
>> only method people wanted for support, these other options would not have a 
>> user-base.
>
> That's true.  Even though I would not compare IRC against mailing lists
> and forums, as that is very different ways of communication.  Mailing
> lists and forums are more similar in that regards.
>
> IMHO, I believe the reason for the forum to have grown is because the
> mailing list archives are not popping up as quickly on google searches
> as forums does.  And that when you get a link to the mail archive on
> SF.net, it simply stinks when you try to read the discussion threads
> there.  Promoting the mailing lists via gmane.org and the thread browser
> there is a much much better solution.
>
> Another thing, signing up for the mailing list to be able to send one
> mail with one message, and then getting your mail account "spammed" with
> other mailing list mails which you don't care about, is also a minus if
> you don't plan on being more active in the community.  I believe you can
> send posts via the NNTP service on gmane.org, but for many users that's
> also too awkward and complicated compared to a forum (no need to figure
> out what this NNTP thingy is).
>
> I honestly believe that forums and mailing lists are two competitive
> solutions, both with pros and contras.  I personally prefer mailing
> list, but I know others hate mailing lists ... and that's fine.  But in
> the long run, I believe it is not clever to try to have both in
> parallel, unless there are some synchronisation between them.  I would
> say an update and alive wiki would be much more beneficial to the
> community as another source of information than a forum.
>
> Mailing lists might also make more sense if the sending-to-list-policy
> changes to not requiring to subscribe to the list.   But that of course
> will include issues with spam.  Another solution is to either switch to
> forum only (which I personally would dislike) or to have both in
> parallel with synchronisation (posts in forums are sent to mailing list
> and vice versa).
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
>
> kind regards,
>
> David Sommerseth
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAktlocgACgkQDC186MBRfrr09QCcDEppb0i2pBLNUI4jWPm5ZkLe
> 9+8AoKt97c8ynpcDkdS3M0UYavBL5VtN
> =LMho
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Summary of the IRC meeting (28th Jan 2010)

[Alon Bar-Lev]

Trac is *THE* worse ticketing system there is on earth.
It is almost unmaintained and even if something happens at the project
it is minor and unusable.
For example ticket dependency and duplication is unavailable for years.

If you like to have sane system, use bugzilla.

Yes, I know this was raised in meeting, but I think someone is going
to regret this decision.

2010/1/31 Samuli Seppänen :
> Here's the summary for last Thursday's community meeting.
>
> --
> Samuli Seppänen
> Community Manager
> OpenVPN Technologies, Inc
>
> irc freenode net: mattock
>
>
> COMMUNITY MEETING
>
> Place: #openvpn-discussion on irc.freenode.net
> Date: Thursday, 28th January 2010
> Time: 19:00 UTC
>
> Full log available here:
>
> http://secure-computing.net/logs/%23%23openvpn-discussion.log
>
> Next meeting on Thu 4th Feb 2010. Same place, same time.
>
> SUMMARY
>
> Decided to start with a single Trac-based site for the whole community rather 
> than have separate user/developer sites. The main concern was the risk of 
> content getting fragmented (e.g. developer content in user wiki and vice 
> versa). This means Trac will need to be themed to make it as approachable as 
> possible for "normal" users (=not look too developer-oriented).
>
> Agreed that we need a set of documents describing how OpenVPN is developed - 
> including things like common coding conventions. This should improve code 
> quality as well as make the process less taxing for core developers.
>
> Agreed that the content from the new community site needs to be
>
>  a) mirrored to another server (e.g. ecrist's OpenvPN community server)
>  b) backed up off-site (e.g. to ecrist's server and/or OpenVPN e.V.)
>  c) accessible by a community member
>
> This helps prevent data loss for any reason - political or technical.
>
> Discussed community site spam prevention in some length:
>
> * There is an anti-spam plugin for Trac (see below)
> * A proper user registration process needs to be chosen - not too 
> bureaucratical but not too automated, either
> * Forum posts could be automatically accepted only after the first few have 
> been accepted manually by the admin(s)
>
> Discussed which forum software to use. PhpBB is apparently the best OSS 
> solution out there.
>
> Discussed potentially useful Trac plugins:
>
> * http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/PluginList
> * http://trac-hacks.org/
> * http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/DiscussionPlugin (for forums, probably not as 
> good as phpBB and such)
> * http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/SpamFilter (spma filtering)
> * http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/TicketImportPlugin (for importing SF.net tickets)
> * http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/TracBuildbotIntegration (for automated building 
> and regression testing with buildbot)
> * http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/MediaWikiPluginMacro (mediawiki syntax for Trac)
> * http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/TocMacro (automated Table of contents creation)
> * http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/DownloadsPlugin (downloads through Trac, e.g. 
> for file releases)
> * http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/DefaultCcPlugin (a default CC for tickets, e.g. 
> inform James or devel-list)
> * http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/IrcAnnouncerPlugin (Trac makes announcements of 
> changes to IRC)
> * http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/IrcLogsPlugin (IRC logs to Trac)
>
> Also discussed IRC<->Trac integration using Trac's built-in RSS support.
>
> --
> The Planet: dedicated and managed hosting, cloud storage, colocation
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> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openvpn-devel
>
>

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Summary of the IRC meeting (28th Jan 2010)

[Alon Bar-Lev]

Trac is promises to provide all but provides none, I really don't know
which project you managed with Trac, but without ticket dependencies
and without proper CC lists and workflow it is difficult to manage a
real project.

You are better use separate products for each category.

1. Bugzilla - bug tracking - most production activity goes here,
failing to manage bugs/tasks properly results in failure to manage
releases.

2. ViewVC/ViewGIT/Whatever - Browse code.

3. MediaWiki - wiki - much better than trac.

4. File releases, well... a simple webdav does the trick.

5. Forums... Why not mailing list with archive? As it always had been?
And use mailman?

I looked at redmine some time ago and tracked the project, it has a
single active developer, much like OpenVPN, and as such no much
progress/support is made.

Consider to use tools that do what you require, stable tools, and best
in each task.

Alon.

2010/1/31 Samuli Seppänen :
> Hi Alon,
>
> Could give a few concrete examples of the problems you've encountered
> with Trac and/or Trac developers? I've used Trac myself almost daily for
> ~3 years with no problems. I don't think it ever even went down during
> that time. Also, nobody else in the community site meetings (11th and
> 28th) had any noteworthy problems with Trac.
>
> Also, we're not looking into just a bug tracker. We need a wiki, forums,
> file releases, bug/feature request tracker etc. Trac combines many of
> these into a neat package. The alternative is take a bunch of excellent
> but separate services and integrate (=hack) them together. This gets
> very ugly very soon and requires a _lot_ of work: weeks or months
> instead of days.
>
> If Trac really proves to be a failure as you say we can migrate away
> from it. It will be somewhat painful, but definitely doable. The
> database scheme (at least the ticket part) is relatively straightforward
> to export and convert to, say, Redmine. Some data will inevitably get
> lost, though.
>
> Samuli
>
>> Trac is *THE* worse ticketing system there is on earth.
>> It is almost unmaintained and even if something happens at the project
>> it is minor and unusable.
>> For example ticket dependency and duplication is unavailable for years.
>>
>> If you like to have sane system, use bugzilla.
>>
>> Yes, I know this was raised in meeting, but I think someone is going
>> to regret this decision.
>>
>> 2010/1/31 Samuli Seppänen :
>>
>>> Here's the summary for last Thursday's community meeting.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Samuli Seppänen
>>> Community Manager
>>> OpenVPN Technologies, Inc
>>>
>>> irc freenode net: mattock
>>>
>>>
>>> COMMUNITY MEETING
>>>
>>> Place: #openvpn-discussion on irc.freenode.net
>>> Date: Thursday, 28th January 2010
>>> Time: 19:00 UTC
>>>
>>> Full log available here:
>>>
>>> http://secure-computing.net/logs/%23%23openvpn-discussion.log
>>>
>>> Next meeting on Thu 4th Feb 2010. Same place, same time.
>>>
>>> SUMMARY
>>>
>>> Decided to start with a single Trac-based site for the whole community 
>>> rather than have separate user/developer sites. The main concern was the 
>>> risk of content getting fragmented (e.g. developer content in user wiki and 
>>> vice versa). This means Trac will need to be themed to make it as 
>>> approachable as possible for "normal" users (=not look too 
>>> developer-oriented).
>>>
>>> Agreed that we need a set of documents describing how OpenVPN is developed 
>>> - including things like common coding conventions. This should improve code 
>>> quality as well as make the process less taxing for core developers.
>>>
>>> Agreed that the content from the new community site needs to be
>>>
>>>  a) mirrored to another server (e.g. ecrist's OpenvPN community server)
>>>  b) backed up off-site (e.g. to ecrist's server and/or OpenVPN e.V.)
>>>  c) accessible by a community member
>>>
>>> This helps prevent data loss for any reason - political or technical.
>>>
>>> Discussed community site spam prevention in some length:
>>>
>>> * There is an anti-spam plugin for Trac (see below)
>>> * A proper user registration process needs to be chosen - not too 
>>> bureaucratical but not too automated, either
>>> * Forum posts could be automatically accepted only after the first few have 
>>> been accepted manually by the admin(s)
>>>
>>> Discussed which forum software to use. PhpBB is apparently the best OSS 
>>> solution out there.
>>>
>>> Discussed potentially useful Trac plugins:
>>>
>>> * http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/PluginList
>>> * http://trac-hacks.org/
>>> * http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/DiscussionPlugin (for forums, probably not as 
>>> good as phpBB and such)
>>> * http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/SpamFilter (spma filtering)
>>> * http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/TicketImportPlugin (for importing SF.net 
>>> tickets)
>>> * http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/TracBuildbotIntegration (for automated 
>>> building and regression testing with buildbot)
>>> * http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/MediaWikiPluginMacro 

[Openvpn-devel] Summary of the IRC meeting (28th Jan 2010)

[Samuli Seppänen]

Here's the summary for last Thursday's community meeting.

-- 
Samuli Seppänen
Community Manager
OpenVPN Technologies, Inc

irc freenode net: mattock

COMMUNITY MEETING

Place: #openvpn-discussion on irc.freenode.net
List-Post: openvpn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Thursday, 28th January 2010
Time: 19:00 UTC

Full log available here:

http://secure-computing.net/logs/%23%23openvpn-discussion.log

Next meeting on Thu 4th Feb 2010. Same place, same time.

SUMMARY

Decided to start with a single Trac-based site for the whole community rather 
than have separate user/developer sites. The main concern was the risk of 
content getting fragmented (e.g. developer content in user wiki and vice 
versa). This means Trac will need to be themed to make it as approachable as 
possible for "normal" users (=not look too developer-oriented).

Agreed that we need a set of documents describing how OpenVPN is developed - 
including things like common coding conventions. This should improve code 
quality as well as make the process less taxing for core developers.

Agreed that the content from the new community site needs to be 

 a) mirrored to another server (e.g. ecrist's OpenvPN community server)
 b) backed up off-site (e.g. to ecrist's server and/or OpenVPN e.V.)
 c) accessible by a community member

This helps prevent data loss for any reason - political or technical.

Discussed community site spam prevention in some length:

* There is an anti-spam plugin for Trac (see below)
* A proper user registration process needs to be chosen - not too 
bureaucratical but not too automated, either
* Forum posts could be automatically accepted only after the first few have 
been accepted manually by the admin(s)

Discussed which forum software to use. PhpBB is apparently the best OSS 
solution out there.

Discussed potentially useful Trac plugins:

* http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/PluginList
* http://trac-hacks.org/
* http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/DiscussionPlugin (for forums, probably not as good 
as phpBB and such)
* http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/SpamFilter (spma filtering)
* http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/TicketImportPlugin (for importing SF.net tickets)
* http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/TracBuildbotIntegration (for automated building 
and regression testing with buildbot)
* http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/MediaWikiPluginMacro (mediawiki syntax for Trac)
* http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/TocMacro (automated Table of contents creation)
* http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/DownloadsPlugin (downloads through Trac, e.g. for 
file releases)
* http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/DefaultCcPlugin (a default CC for tickets, e.g. 
inform James or devel-list)
* http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/IrcAnnouncerPlugin (Trac makes announcements of 
changes to IRC)
* http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/IrcLogsPlugin (IRC logs to Trac)

Also discussed IRC<->Trac integration using Trac's built-in RSS support.