RE: OFA myths was Re: BAARF
Personally I never use DBCA. The manual installation scripts that I've carried over from my 8.0 days for Windows and HP-UX still work (with minor modifications) for 9.2. Well, I lie. When I first install a new Oracle version I use DBCA to create a database just to see what some of the new options are. > -Original Message- > Mercadante, Thomas F > > and the first thing that I do is to delete the INDX > tablespace!!! As well > as dropping the ORD* users, SCOTT, Tim, Tammy-Fae, Jim Bob > and all the other > crappy stuff that auytomatically gets installed. > > I try and get it back to the original 8.0 install!!! -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jacques Kilchoer INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OFA myths was Re: BAARF
and the first thing that I do is to delete the INDX tablespace!!! As well as dropping the ORD* users, SCOTT, Tim, Tammy-Fae, Jim Bob and all the other crappy stuff that auytomatically gets installed. I try and get it back to the original 8.0 install!!! Tom Mercadante Oracle Certified Professional -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 4:25 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > -Original Message- > Paul Baumgartel > > Loney didn't write OFA, and methinks he was taking liberties with it. Perhaps. However I notice that DBCA in Oracle 9.2 creates a tablespace called INDX. http://download-west.oracle.com/docs/html/A97297_01/appg_ofa.htm#sthref807 Oracle9i Administrator's Reference Release 2 (9.2.0.1.0) for UNIX Systems: AIX-Based Systems, Compaq Tru64 UNIX, HP 9000 Series HP-UX, Linux Intel, and Sun Solaris Part No. A97297-01 Appendix G Optimal Flexible Architecture ... Separate Segments With Different Requirements Separate groups of segments with different lifespans, I/O request demands, and backup frequencies across different tablespaces. Table G-5 describes the special tablespaces that the Database Configuration Assistant creates for each Oracle database. ... Table G-5 Special Tablespaces ... INDX - Index associated with data in the USERS tablespace USERS - Miscellaneous user segments ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jacques Kilchoer INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mercadante, Thomas F INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OFA myths was Re: BAARF
> -Original Message- > Paul Baumgartel > > Loney didn't write OFA, and methinks he was taking liberties with it. Perhaps. However I notice that DBCA in Oracle 9.2 creates a tablespace called INDX. http://download-west.oracle.com/docs/html/A97297_01/appg_ofa.htm#sthref807 Oracle9i Administrator's Reference Release 2 (9.2.0.1.0) for UNIX Systems: AIX-Based Systems, Compaq Tru64 UNIX, HP 9000 Series HP-UX, Linux Intel, and Sun Solaris Part No. A97297-01 Appendix G Optimal Flexible Architecture ... Separate Segments With Different Requirements Separate groups of segments with different lifespans, I/O request demands, and backup frequencies across different tablespaces. Table G-5 describes the special tablespaces that the Database Configuration Assistant creates for each Oracle database. ... Table G-5 Special Tablespaces ... INDX - Index associated with data in the USERS tablespace USERS - Miscellaneous user segments ... -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jacques Kilchoer INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OFA myths was Re: BAARF
Loney didn't write OFA, and methinks he was taking liberties with it. --- Jacques Kilchoer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Not commenting on the accuracy of the information, but Kevin Loney, > in the Oracle8 DBA Handbook (1998), says the following (Chapter 3 > Logical Database Layouts), in a section entitled "The Optimal > Flexible Architecture (OFA)" > "Index segments should not be stored in the same tablespace as their > associated tables, since they have a great deal of concurreint I/O > during both manipulation and queries. Index segments are also subject > to fragmentation due to improper sizing or unpredicted table growth. > Isolating the application indexes to a separate tablespace greatly > reduces the administrative efforts involved in defragmenting either > the DATA or the INDEXES tablespace." > > From reading his book, I always thought that OFA implied the > separation of tables and indexes. > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf > Of > > Steve Rospo > > Sent: jeudi, 25. septembre 2003 15:10 > > > > I'd like to get rid of the myth that OFA really states all > > that much about > > what goes in what tablespace etc. I've got a copy of the > > Cary's OFA paper > > entitled "The OFA Standard - Oracle7 for Open Systems" dated Sept > 24, > > 1995. (Happy belated birthday OFA!) At the end of paper > > there's a summary > > of the requirements and the recommendations that make up OFA. > > The CLOSEST > > the OFA comes to specifying table/index separation are > > > > "#7 Separate groups of segments with different lifespans, I/O > request > > demands, and backup frequencies among different tablespaces." > > > > -or maybe- > > > > "#11 *IF* [emphasis mine] you can afford enough hardware > > that: 1) You can > > guarantee that each disk drive will contain database files > > from exactly > > one application and 2) You can dedicate sufficiently many > > drives to each > > database to ensure that there will be no I/O bottleneck." > > > > The document itself says, "The OFA Standard is a set of > configuration > > guidelines that will give you faster, more reliable Oracle > > database that > > require less work to maintain." So every time I read that someone > is > > putting redo here, index tablespaces here, and temp > > tablespaces there in > > order to be "OFA compliant" I kinda shrug. Obviously it's > > all a good idea > > to separate this stuff but it's not absolutely required for > OFA-ness. > > Essentially, OFA is just a very good way of separating Oracle > > code from > > Oracle data to make administration *much* easier. I'm sure before > OFA > > there were plenty of places that had everything under > > $ORACLE_HOME/dbs and > > no naming standard for datafiles. Ugh! > > > > Now if we could only find this "Cary V. Millsap, Oracle > Corporation" > > character so he could explain himself. ;-) '95 was a > > loong time ago. > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: Jacques Kilchoer > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Paul Baumgartel INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: BAARF
I agree, though I'm not sure if it is because indexes are more susceptible to corruption. My guess is that given 50-50 odds, sometimes you get lucky. Mixing tables and indexes together gives you 0% odds of losing data... :-) Well, to add another couple of pennies worth... In my very first gig as a DBA ten years ago, we were faced with a 7.0.15 database that was doubling in size every few months. Management had already decided to scrap the system and migrate to another, so they refused to buy more storage even though it was production. Long story short, we were forced to unmirror the RAID-1 volumes underneath the index tablespaces and use the freed-up plexes to create new volumes for table tablespaces. Indexes are ancillary structures and ultimately expendable; tables are *data*... on 9/29/03 7:09 AM, Hitchman, Peter at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hi, > To add my two pennies worth. By design I create physical database lqyouts > that seperate indexes and tables by tablespace for ease of management, > unless the database is real small. My experience over the years with Oracle, > has been the object corruptions in the database have occurred more frequenty > with indexes than tables, and when it happens its good just to be able to > scrap the index tablespaces datafiles and start again. > > Regards > > Pete > > -Original Message- > Sent: 29 September 2003 02:45 > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > Thomas, > > Please pardon me, but you are off-target in your criticisms of OFA. > > It has never advocated separating tables from indexes for performance > purposes. Ironically, your email starts to touch on the real reason for > separating them (i.e. different types of I/O, different recovery > requirements, etc). Tables and indexes do belong in different tablespaces, > but not for reasons of performance. > > Cary first designed and implemented OFA in the early 90s and formalized it > into a paper in 1995. Quite frankly, it is a brilliant set of rules of how > Oracle-based systems should be structured, and a breath of fresh air from > the simplistic way that Oracle installers laid things out at the time. It > took several years for Oracle Development to see the light and become > OFA-compliant, and not a moment too soon either. Just imagine if everything > were still installed into a single directory tree under ORACLE_HOME? All > of things you mention here have nothing to do with OFA. > > Please read the paper. > > Hope this helps... > > -Tim > > P.S.By the way, multiple block sizes are not intended for performance > optimization; they merely enable transportable tablespaces between > databases with different block sizes. > > > on 9/25/03 11:04 AM, Thomas Day at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> >> I would love to have a definitive site that I could send all RAID-F >> advocates to where it would be laid out clearly, unambiguously, and >> definitively what storage types should be used for what purpose. >> >> Redo logs on RAID 0 with Oracle duplexing (y/n)? >> Rollback (or undo) ditto? >> Write intensive tablespaces on RAID 1+0 (or should that be 0+1)? >> Read intensive tablespaces on RAID ? (I guess 5 is OK since it's cheaper >> than 1+0 and you won't have the write penalty) >> >> While we're at it could we blow up the OFA myth? Since you're tablespaces >> are on datafiles that are on logical volumns that are on physical devices >> which may contain one or many actual disks, does it really make sense to >> worry (from a performance standpoint) about separating tables and indexes >> into different tablespaces? >> >> We have killed the "everything in one extent" myth haven't we? > Everybody's >> comfortable with tables that have 100's of extents? >> >> And while we're at it, could we include the Oracle 9 multiple blocksizes >> and how to use them. The best that I've seen is indexes in big blocks, >> tables in small blocks --- uh, oh, time to separate tables and indexes. >> >> Maybe we will never get rid of the OFA myth. >> >> Just venting. >> >> Tired of arguing in front of management with Oracle certified DBAs that >> RAID 5 is not good, OFA is unnecessary, and uniform extents is the only > way >> to go. Looking for a big stick to catch their attention with. >> -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Tim Gorman INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OFA myths was Re: BAARF
Oh man... now I see the problem. Well, IMHO, Kevin's advice is the right advice for the wrong reasons. It's not the OFA. Thanks, Jacques, for pointing that out. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Performance Diagnosis 101: 10/28 Phoenix, 11/19 Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004: March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Jacques Kilchoer Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 6:15 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Not commenting on the accuracy of the information, but Kevin Loney, in the Oracle8 DBA Handbook (1998), says the following (Chapter 3 Logical Database Layouts), in a section entitled "The Optimal Flexible Architecture (OFA)" "Index segments should not be stored in the same tablespace as their associated tables, since they have a great deal of concurreint I/O during both manipulation and queries. Index segments are also subject to fragmentation due to improper sizing or unpredicted table growth. Isolating the application indexes to a separate tablespace greatly reduces the administrative efforts involved in defragmenting either the DATA or the INDEXES tablespace." >From reading his book, I always thought that OFA implied the separation of tables and indexes. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > Steve Rospo > Sent: jeudi, 25. septembre 2003 15:10 > > I'd like to get rid of the myth that OFA really states all > that much about > what goes in what tablespace etc. I've got a copy of the > Cary's OFA paper > entitled "The OFA Standard - Oracle7 for Open Systems" dated Sept 24, > 1995. (Happy belated birthday OFA!) At the end of paper > there's a summary > of the requirements and the recommendations that make up OFA. > The CLOSEST > the OFA comes to specifying table/index separation are > > "#7 Separate groups of segments with different lifespans, I/O request > demands, and backup frequencies among different tablespaces." > > -or maybe- > > "#11 *IF* [emphasis mine] you can afford enough hardware > that: 1) You can > guarantee that each disk drive will contain database files > from exactly > one application and 2) You can dedicate sufficiently many > drives to each > database to ensure that there will be no I/O bottleneck." > > The document itself says, "The OFA Standard is a set of configuration > guidelines that will give you faster, more reliable Oracle > database that > require less work to maintain." So every time I read that someone is > putting redo here, index tablespaces here, and temp > tablespaces there in > order to be "OFA compliant" I kinda shrug. Obviously it's > all a good idea > to separate this stuff but it's not absolutely required for OFA-ness. > Essentially, OFA is just a very good way of separating Oracle > code from > Oracle data to make administration *much* easier. I'm sure before OFA > there were plenty of places that had everything under > $ORACLE_HOME/dbs and > no naming standard for datafiles. Ugh! > > Now if we could only find this "Cary V. Millsap, Oracle Corporation" > character so he could explain himself. ;-) '95 was a > loong time ago. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jacques Kilchoer INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: BAARF
Niall, I think you've specified the right test. However, whether to separate indexes from data is an easier argument. All it takes is one of potentially dozens of reasons, and isolating becomes the right idea. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Performance Diagnosis 101: 10/28 Phoenix, 11/19 Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004: March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Niall Litchfield Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 4:35 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Cary writes > It *is* a good idea to separate index data from heap data > into different tablespaces. But the reason isn't solely to > eliminate I/O competition. Even if I/O competition isn't an > issue for you (and the OFA Standard doesn't say that it will > be), then it's *still* a good idea to separate your index > data from your heap data, for reasons including: > > * Index segments have different backup and recovery > requirements than their corresponding heap segments. For > example, as Peter mentioned, if you have an index block > corruption event, then it's convenient to just offline, kill, > and rebuild an index tablespace. If the indexes and data are > mixed up in a single tablespace, this is not an option. Another > example: If you construct your backup schedule to make media > recovery time a constant, then you probably don't need to > back up your indexes on the same schedule as you back up your > heaps. But unless they're in different tablespaces, this > isn't an option either. Hmmm maybe I'm going to start having to rethink some stuff, when you and Howard agree and I disagree it seems likely I'm being dense. My concern goes Indexes are largely built for one of two reasons A) to make performance acceptable. B) to enforce constraints. In a media recovery situation, recovering but with unacceptable performance or locking issues probably doesn't really constitute recovery. Now If it can be shown that trashing the index tablespace and rebuilding is generally faster than restoring datafiles and applying logs I might be more convinced but at the moment I'm not so sure. So is this garbage Or not.? Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OFA myths was Re: BAARF
Not commenting on the accuracy of the information, but Kevin Loney, in the Oracle8 DBA Handbook (1998), says the following (Chapter 3 Logical Database Layouts), in a section entitled "The Optimal Flexible Architecture (OFA)" "Index segments should not be stored in the same tablespace as their associated tables, since they have a great deal of concurreint I/O during both manipulation and queries. Index segments are also subject to fragmentation due to improper sizing or unpredicted table growth. Isolating the application indexes to a separate tablespace greatly reduces the administrative efforts involved in defragmenting either the DATA or the INDEXES tablespace." >From reading his book, I always thought that OFA implied the separation of tables and >indexes. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > Steve Rospo > Sent: jeudi, 25. septembre 2003 15:10 > > I'd like to get rid of the myth that OFA really states all > that much about > what goes in what tablespace etc. I've got a copy of the > Cary's OFA paper > entitled "The OFA Standard - Oracle7 for Open Systems" dated Sept 24, > 1995. (Happy belated birthday OFA!) At the end of paper > there's a summary > of the requirements and the recommendations that make up OFA. > The CLOSEST > the OFA comes to specifying table/index separation are > > "#7 Separate groups of segments with different lifespans, I/O request > demands, and backup frequencies among different tablespaces." > > -or maybe- > > "#11 *IF* [emphasis mine] you can afford enough hardware > that: 1) You can > guarantee that each disk drive will contain database files > from exactly > one application and 2) You can dedicate sufficiently many > drives to each > database to ensure that there will be no I/O bottleneck." > > The document itself says, "The OFA Standard is a set of configuration > guidelines that will give you faster, more reliable Oracle > database that > require less work to maintain." So every time I read that someone is > putting redo here, index tablespaces here, and temp > tablespaces there in > order to be "OFA compliant" I kinda shrug. Obviously it's > all a good idea > to separate this stuff but it's not absolutely required for OFA-ness. > Essentially, OFA is just a very good way of separating Oracle > code from > Oracle data to make administration *much* easier. I'm sure before OFA > there were plenty of places that had everything under > $ORACLE_HOME/dbs and > no naming standard for datafiles. Ugh! > > Now if we could only find this "Cary V. Millsap, Oracle Corporation" > character so he could explain himself. ;-) '95 was a > loong time ago. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jacques Kilchoer INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: BAARF
Havent' you heard about the theory of relativity? 1 - ideal - full recovery with indexes 2 - relatively less than ideal - having to rebuild indexes It doesn't mean you should aim for 2, but you sure want to keep 2 as an option. If you don't have separate index tablespaces, you are simply limiting your options. In a recovery situation you want all the options you can get! > Indexes are largely built for one of two reasons > > A) to make performance acceptable. > B) to enforce constraints. > > In a media recovery situation, recovering but with unacceptable > performance or locking issues probably doesn't really constitute > recovery. Now If it can be shown that trashing the index tablespace and > rebuilding is generally faster than restoring datafiles and applying > logs I might be more convinced but at the moment I'm not so sure. So is > this garbage Or not.? > > Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Binley Lim INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: BAARF
Oh, plenty of times. Just never heard it referred to as "OFA". on 9/29/03 7:04 AM, Thomas Day at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > My struggle is not with the directory layout OFA. > > It is with the "mythical" OFA that every DBA that I have talked to knows > all about. Where ORACLE says that if you are a good and competent DBA you > will separate your table data and your index data into two separate > tablespaces so that one disk head can be reading index entries while > another disk head is reading the table data. You've never run into that? > > > > > Tim Gorman @sagelogix.com> To: Multiple recipients of > list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent by: cc: > ml-errorsSubject: Re: BAARF > > > 09/28/2003 09:44 > PM > Please respond > to ORACLE-L > > > > > > > Thomas, > > Please pardon me, but you are off-target in your criticisms of OFA. > > It has never advocated separating tables from indexes for performance > purposes. Ironically, your email starts to touch on the real reason for > separating them (i.e. different types of I/O, different recovery > requirements, etc). Tables and indexes do belong in different tablespaces, > but not for reasons of performance. > > Cary first designed and implemented OFA in the early 90s and formalized it > into a paper in 1995. Quite frankly, it is a brilliant set of rules of how > Oracle-based systems should be structured, and a breath of fresh air from > the simplistic way that Oracle installers laid things out at the time. It > took several years for Oracle Development to see the light and become > OFA-compliant, and not a moment too soon either. Just imagine if > everything > were still installed into a single directory tree under ORACLE_HOME? All > of things you mention here have nothing to do with OFA. > > Please read the paper. > > Hope this helps... > > -Tim > > P.S.By the way, multiple block sizes are not intended for performance > optimization; they merely enable transportable tablespaces between > databases with different block sizes. > > > on 9/25/03 11:04 AM, Thomas Day at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> >> I would love to have a definitive site that I could send all RAID-F >> advocates to where it would be laid out clearly, unambiguously, and >> definitively what storage types should be used for what purpose. >> >> Redo logs on RAID 0 with Oracle duplexing (y/n)? >> Rollback (or undo) ditto? >> Write intensive tablespaces on RAID 1+0 (or should that be 0+1)? >> Read intensive tablespaces on RAID ? (I guess 5 is OK since it's cheaper >> than 1+0 and you won't have the write penalty) >> >> While we're at it could we blow up the OFA myth? Since you're > tablespaces >> are on datafiles that are on logical volumns that are on physical devices >> which may contain one or many actual disks, does it really make sense to >> worry (from a performance standpoint) about separating tables and indexes >> into different tablespaces? >> >> We have killed the "everything in one extent" myth haven't we? > Everybody's >> comfortable with tables that have 100's of extents? >> >> And while we're at it, could we include the Oracle 9 multiple blocksizes >> and how to use them. The best that I've seen is indexes in big blocks, >> tables in small blocks --- uh, oh, time to separate tables and indexes. >> >> Maybe we will never get rid of the OFA myth. >> >> Just venting. >> >> Tired of arguing in front of management with Oracle certified DBAs that >> RAID 5 is not good, OFA is unnecessary, and uniform extents is the only > way >> to go. Looking for a big stick to catch their attention with. >> > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: Tim Gorman > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (
RE: BAARF
Cary writes > It *is* a good idea to separate index data from heap data > into different tablespaces. But the reason isn't solely to > eliminate I/O competition. Even if I/O competition isn't an > issue for you (and the OFA Standard doesn't say that it will > be), then it's *still* a good idea to separate your index > data from your heap data, for reasons including: > > * Index segments have different backup and recovery > requirements than their corresponding heap segments. For > example, as Peter mentioned, if you have an index block > corruption event, then it's convenient to just offline, kill, > and rebuild an index tablespace. If the indexes and data are > mixed up in a single tablespace, this is not an option. Another > example: If you construct your backup schedule to make media > recovery time a constant, then you probably don't need to > back up your indexes on the same schedule as you back up your > heaps. But unless they're in different tablespaces, this > isn't an option either. Hmmm maybe I'm going to start having to rethink some stuff, when you and Howard agree and I disagree it seems likely I'm being dense. My concern goes Indexes are largely built for one of two reasons A) to make performance acceptable. B) to enforce constraints. In a media recovery situation, recovering but with unacceptable performance or locking issues probably doesn't really constitute recovery. Now If it can be shown that trashing the index tablespace and rebuilding is generally faster than restoring datafiles and applying logs I might be more convinced but at the moment I'm not so sure. So is this garbage Or not.? Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: BAARF
Hi! > * Index segments have different backup and recovery requirements than > their corresponding heap segments. For example, as Peter mentioned, if > you have an index block corruption event, then it's convenient to just > offline, kill, and rebuild an index tablespace. If the indexes and data Even though I agree with your point, I couldn't resist commenting that it is not too convenient to rebuild a billion row index... See you at Hotsos Symposium next year ;) Tanel. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Tanel Poder INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: BAARF
Thomas, It *is* a good idea to separate index data from heap data into different tablespaces. But the reason isn't solely to eliminate I/O competition. Even if I/O competition isn't an issue for you (and the OFA Standard doesn't say that it will be), then it's *still* a good idea to separate your index data from your heap data, for reasons including: * Index segments have different backup and recovery requirements than their corresponding heap segments. For example, as Peter mentioned, if you have an index block corruption event, then it's convenient to just offline, kill, and rebuild an index tablespace. If the indexes and data are mixed up in a single tablespace, this is not an option. Another example: If you construct your backup schedule to make media recovery time a constant, then you probably don't need to back up your indexes on the same schedule as you back up your heaps. But unless they're in different tablespaces, this isn't an option either. * Index segments are usually smaller than their corresponding heap segments. Using separate tablespaces allows you to use a smaller extent size to conserve disk storage capacity. I don't think I ever wrote that you need to put indexes and their corresponding tables/clusters on separate disks, but you do need to be *able* to do that if your I/O rates indicate that you should. For the original OFA Standard definition, please see section 3 of the document called "The OFA Standard--Oracle for Open Systems," and section 5 of "Configuring Oracle Server for VLDB," both available for free at www.hotsos.com. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Performance Diagnosis 101: 10/28 Phoenix, 11/19 Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004: March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Thomas Day Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 9:05 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L My struggle is not with the directory layout OFA. It is with the "mythical" OFA that every DBA that I have talked to knows all about. Where ORACLE says that if you are a good and competent DBA you will separate your table data and your index data into two separate tablespaces so that one disk head can be reading index entries while another disk head is reading the table data. You've never run into that? Tim Gorman To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: cc: ml-errorsSubject: Re: BAARF 09/28/2003 09:44 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Thomas, Please pardon me, but you are off-target in your criticisms of OFA. It has never advocated separating tables from indexes for performance purposes. Ironically, your email starts to touch on the real reason for separating them (i.e. different types of I/O, different recovery requirements, etc). Tables and indexes do belong in different tablespaces, but not for reasons of performance. Cary first designed and implemented OFA in the early 90s and formalized it into a paper in 1995. Quite frankly, it is a brilliant set of rules of how Oracle-based systems should be structured, and a breath of fresh air from the simplistic way that Oracle installers laid things out at the time. It took several years for Oracle Development to see the light and become OFA-compliant, and not a moment too soon either. Just imagine if everything were still installed into a single directory tree under ORACLE_HOME? All of things you mention here have nothing to do with OFA. Please read the paper. Hope this helps... -Tim P.S.By the way, multiple block sizes are not intended for performance optimization; they merely enable transportable tablespaces between databases with different block sizes. on 9/25/03 11:04 AM, Thomas Day at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I would love to have a definitive site that I could send all RAID-F > advocates to where it would be laid out clearly, unambiguously, and > definitively what storage types should be used for what purpose. > > Redo logs on RAID 0 with Oracle duplexing (y/n)? > Rollback (or undo) ditto? > Write intensive tablespaces on RAID 1+0 (or should that be 0+1)? > Read intensive tablespaces on RAID ? (I guess 5 is OK since it's cheaper > than 1+0 and you won't have the write penalty) > > While we're at it could we blow up the OFA myth? Since you're tablespaces > are on datafiles that are on logical volumns that are on physical devices > which may contain one or many actual disks, does it really make sense to > worry (from a performance standpoint) about separating tables and indexes > into different table
RE: BAARF
Hi, To add my two pennies worth. By design I create physical database lqyouts that seperate indexes and tables by tablespace for ease of management, unless the database is real small. My experience over the years with Oracle, has been the object corruptions in the database have occurred more frequenty with indexes than tables, and when it happens its good just to be able to scrap the index tablespaces datafiles and start again. Regards Pete -Original Message- Sent: 29 September 2003 02:45 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Thomas, Please pardon me, but you are off-target in your criticisms of OFA. It has never advocated separating tables from indexes for performance purposes. Ironically, your email starts to touch on the real reason for separating them (i.e. different types of I/O, different recovery requirements, etc). Tables and indexes do belong in different tablespaces, but not for reasons of performance. Cary first designed and implemented OFA in the early 90s and formalized it into a paper in 1995. Quite frankly, it is a brilliant set of rules of how Oracle-based systems should be structured, and a breath of fresh air from the simplistic way that Oracle installers laid things out at the time. It took several years for Oracle Development to see the light and become OFA-compliant, and not a moment too soon either. Just imagine if everything were still installed into a single directory tree under ORACLE_HOME? All of things you mention here have nothing to do with OFA. Please read the paper. Hope this helps... -Tim P.S.By the way, multiple block sizes are not intended for performance optimization; they merely enable transportable tablespaces between databases with different block sizes. on 9/25/03 11:04 AM, Thomas Day at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I would love to have a definitive site that I could send all RAID-F > advocates to where it would be laid out clearly, unambiguously, and > definitively what storage types should be used for what purpose. > > Redo logs on RAID 0 with Oracle duplexing (y/n)? > Rollback (or undo) ditto? > Write intensive tablespaces on RAID 1+0 (or should that be 0+1)? > Read intensive tablespaces on RAID ? (I guess 5 is OK since it's cheaper > than 1+0 and you won't have the write penalty) > > While we're at it could we blow up the OFA myth? Since you're tablespaces > are on datafiles that are on logical volumns that are on physical devices > which may contain one or many actual disks, does it really make sense to > worry (from a performance standpoint) about separating tables and indexes > into different tablespaces? > > We have killed the "everything in one extent" myth haven't we? Everybody's > comfortable with tables that have 100's of extents? > > And while we're at it, could we include the Oracle 9 multiple blocksizes > and how to use them. The best that I've seen is indexes in big blocks, > tables in small blocks --- uh, oh, time to separate tables and indexes. > > Maybe we will never get rid of the OFA myth. > > Just venting. > > Tired of arguing in front of management with Oracle certified DBAs that > RAID 5 is not good, OFA is unnecessary, and uniform extents is the only way > to go. Looking for a big stick to catch their attention with. > -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Tim Gorman INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ The information contained in this email is confidential and intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Thomson Scientific will accept no responsibility or liability in respect to this email other than to the addressee. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately via email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Hitchman, Peter INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing li
Re: BAARF
My struggle is not with the directory layout OFA. It is with the "mythical" OFA that every DBA that I have talked to knows all about. Where ORACLE says that if you are a good and competent DBA you will separate your table data and your index data into two separate tablespaces so that one disk head can be reading index entries while another disk head is reading the table data. You've never run into that? Tim Gorman To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: cc: ml-errors Subject: Re: BAARF 09/28/2003 09:44 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Thomas, Please pardon me, but you are off-target in your criticisms of OFA. It has never advocated separating tables from indexes for performance purposes. Ironically, your email starts to touch on the real reason for separating them (i.e. different types of I/O, different recovery requirements, etc). Tables and indexes do belong in different tablespaces, but not for reasons of performance. Cary first designed and implemented OFA in the early 90s and formalized it into a paper in 1995. Quite frankly, it is a brilliant set of rules of how Oracle-based systems should be structured, and a breath of fresh air from the simplistic way that Oracle installers laid things out at the time. It took several years for Oracle Development to see the light and become OFA-compliant, and not a moment too soon either. Just imagine if everything were still installed into a single directory tree under ORACLE_HOME? All of things you mention here have nothing to do with OFA. Please read the paper. Hope this helps... -Tim P.S.By the way, multiple block sizes are not intended for performance optimization; they merely enable transportable tablespaces between databases with different block sizes. on 9/25/03 11:04 AM, Thomas Day at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I would love to have a definitive site that I could send all RAID-F > advocates to where it would be laid out clearly, unambiguously, and > definitively what storage types should be used for what purpose. > > Redo logs on RAID 0 with Oracle duplexing (y/n)? > Rollback (or undo) ditto? > Write intensive tablespaces on RAID 1+0 (or should that be 0+1)? > Read intensive tablespaces on RAID ? (I guess 5 is OK since it's cheaper > than 1+0 and you won't have the write penalty) > > While we're at it could we blow up the OFA myth? Since you're tablespaces > are on datafiles that are on logical volumns that are on physical devices > which may contain one or many actual disks, does it really make sense to > worry (from a performance standpoint) about separating tables and indexes > into different tablespaces? > > We have killed the "everything in one extent" myth haven't we? Everybody's > comfortable with tables that have 100's of extents? > > And while we're at it, could we include the Oracle 9 multiple blocksizes > and how to use them. The best that I've seen is indexes in big blocks, > tables in small blocks --- uh, oh, time to separate tables and indexes. > > Maybe we will never get rid of the OFA myth. > > Just venting. > > Tired of arguing in front of management with Oracle certified DBAs that > RAID 5 is not good, OFA is unnecessary, and uniform extents is the only way > to go. Looking for a big stick to catch their attention with. > -- Please see the
Re: BAARF
Thomas, Please pardon me, but you are off-target in your criticisms of OFA. It has never advocated separating tables from indexes for performance purposes. Ironically, your email starts to touch on the real reason for separating them (i.e. different types of I/O, different recovery requirements, etc). Tables and indexes do belong in different tablespaces, but not for reasons of performance. Cary first designed and implemented OFA in the early 90s and formalized it into a paper in 1995. Quite frankly, it is a brilliant set of rules of how Oracle-based systems should be structured, and a breath of fresh air from the simplistic way that Oracle installers laid things out at the time. It took several years for Oracle Development to see the light and become OFA-compliant, and not a moment too soon either. Just imagine if everything were still installed into a single directory tree under ORACLE_HOME? All of things you mention here have nothing to do with OFA. Please read the paper. Hope this helps... -Tim P.S.By the way, multiple block sizes are not intended for performance optimization; they merely enable transportable tablespaces between databases with different block sizes. on 9/25/03 11:04 AM, Thomas Day at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I would love to have a definitive site that I could send all RAID-F > advocates to where it would be laid out clearly, unambiguously, and > definitively what storage types should be used for what purpose. > > Redo logs on RAID 0 with Oracle duplexing (y/n)? > Rollback (or undo) ditto? > Write intensive tablespaces on RAID 1+0 (or should that be 0+1)? > Read intensive tablespaces on RAID ? (I guess 5 is OK since it's cheaper > than 1+0 and you won't have the write penalty) > > While we're at it could we blow up the OFA myth? Since you're tablespaces > are on datafiles that are on logical volumns that are on physical devices > which may contain one or many actual disks, does it really make sense to > worry (from a performance standpoint) about separating tables and indexes > into different tablespaces? > > We have killed the "everything in one extent" myth haven't we? Everybody's > comfortable with tables that have 100's of extents? > > And while we're at it, could we include the Oracle 9 multiple blocksizes > and how to use them. The best that I've seen is indexes in big blocks, > tables in small blocks --- uh, oh, time to separate tables and indexes. > > Maybe we will never get rid of the OFA myth. > > Just venting. > > Tired of arguing in front of management with Oracle certified DBAs that > RAID 5 is not good, OFA is unnecessary, and uniform extents is the only way > to go. Looking for a big stick to catch their attention with. > -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Tim Gorman INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OFA myths was Re: BAARF
Steve, Thank you. I am grateful that someone else shrugs too. I still get a lot of feedback about the OFA. Almost every conference I go to, someone forgives me for writing the OFA Standard. And I leave not knowing for sure where things went wrong. A few weeks ago, one of the Oracle-L threads went down the trail of how the OFA requires that you separate index and heap segments on different disks. Bracing myself for embarrassment, I actually took the time to go back and read the OFA Standard document again, and much to my relief, I had not written that. (I did say that they should be stored in separate tablespaces, and I still believe that the reasons I proposed for that recommendation are legitimate. But where tablespaces should go on disk is a function of your specific operational metrics, not somebody's standards document.) There have been a lot of "OFA" documents published by various parties since my OFA document. I haven't read them all. Best I can figure is that some of these authors have been more strict in their interpretation of what I had tried to say. I tried to be *very* careful in my specification so that the document wouldn't become irrelevant with technology changes. I of course wouldn't have predicted all the technology changes that have occurred since 1995, but I phrased things as carefully as I could to allow for changes. For example, I never said you have to name mount points "/u[0-9][0-9]". I offered that as a good "OFA compliant" solution, but the OFA requirement for mount point naming is very open-ended: "Name all mount points that will hold site-specific data to match the pattern /pm, where p is a strong constant chosen not to misrepresent the contents of any mount point, and m is a unique fixed-length key that distinguishes one mount point from another." Granted, this doesn't provide for people naming their mount points after planets or Muppets or mountain peaks, but I still believe that it's a good idea to choose mount point names from a domain that can be unambiguously identified with a simple regular expression. And so on... Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Performance Diagnosis 101: 10/28 Phoenix, 11/19 Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004: March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Steve Rospo Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 5:10 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I'd like to get rid of the myth that OFA really states all that much about what goes in what tablespace etc. I've got a copy of the Cary's OFA paper entitled "The OFA Standard - Oracle7 for Open Systems" dated Sept 24, 1995. (Happy belated birthday OFA!) At the end of paper there's a summary of the requirements and the recommendations that make up OFA. The CLOSEST the OFA comes to specifying table/index separation are "#7 Separate groups of segments with different lifespans, I/O request demands, and backup frequencies among different tablespaces." -or maybe- "#11 *IF* [emphasis mine] you can afford enough hardware that: 1) You can guarantee that each disk drive will contain database files from exactly one application and 2) You can dedicate sufficiently many drives to each database to ensure that there will be no I/O bottleneck." The document itself says, "The OFA Standard is a set of configuration guidelines that will give you faster, more reliable Oracle database that require less work to maintain." So every time I read that someone is putting redo here, index tablespaces here, and temp tablespaces there in order to be "OFA compliant" I kinda shrug. Obviously it's all a good idea to separate this stuff but it's not absolutely required for OFA-ness. Essentially, OFA is just a very good way of separating Oracle code from Oracle data to make administration *much* easier. I'm sure before OFA there were plenty of places that had everything under $ORACLE_HOME/dbs and no naming standard for datafiles. Ugh! Now if we could only find this "Cary V. Millsap, Oracle Corporation" character so he could explain himself. ;-) '95 was a loong time ago. S- On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Thomas Day wrote: [snip] > While we're at it could we blow up the OFA myth? Since you're tablespaces > are on datafiles that are on logical volumns that are on physical devices > which may contain one or many actual disks, does it really make sense to > worry (from a performance standpoint) about separating tables and indexes > into different tablespaces? [snip] > Maybe we will never get rid of the OFA myth. > -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Steve Rospo INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT
OFA myths was Re: BAARF
I'd like to get rid of the myth that OFA really states all that much about what goes in what tablespace etc. I've got a copy of the Cary's OFA paper entitled "The OFA Standard - Oracle7 for Open Systems" dated Sept 24, 1995. (Happy belated birthday OFA!) At the end of paper there's a summary of the requirements and the recommendations that make up OFA. The CLOSEST the OFA comes to specifying table/index separation are "#7 Separate groups of segments with different lifespans, I/O request demands, and backup frequencies among different tablespaces." -or maybe- "#11 *IF* [emphasis mine] you can afford enough hardware that: 1) You can guarantee that each disk drive will contain database files from exactly one application and 2) You can dedicate sufficiently many drives to each database to ensure that there will be no I/O bottleneck." The document itself says, "The OFA Standard is a set of configuration guidelines that will give you faster, more reliable Oracle database that require less work to maintain." So every time I read that someone is putting redo here, index tablespaces here, and temp tablespaces there in order to be "OFA compliant" I kinda shrug. Obviously it's all a good idea to separate this stuff but it's not absolutely required for OFA-ness. Essentially, OFA is just a very good way of separating Oracle code from Oracle data to make administration *much* easier. I'm sure before OFA there were plenty of places that had everything under $ORACLE_HOME/dbs and no naming standard for datafiles. Ugh! Now if we could only find this "Cary V. Millsap, Oracle Corporation" character so he could explain himself. ;-) '95 was a loong time ago. S- On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Thomas Day wrote: [snip] > While we're at it could we blow up the OFA myth? Since you're tablespaces > are on datafiles that are on logical volumns that are on physical devices > which may contain one or many actual disks, does it really make sense to > worry (from a performance standpoint) about separating tables and indexes > into different tablespaces? [snip] > Maybe we will never get rid of the OFA myth. > -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Steve Rospo INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: BAARF
Put your redo logs on mirrored disks. If you've got a big array with lots of write cache, you don't even necessarily have to bother with striping across multiple disks. If you do want that, create a 0+1 plex across your disks and run it like that. Thanks, Matt -- Matthew Zito GridApp Systems Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 646-220-3551 Phone: 212-358-8211 x 359 http://www.gridapp.com > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Thomas Day > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 3:20 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > Subject: RE: BAARF > > > > And what do you suggest? > > > > > > > > I would strongly advise against redo logs on RAID-0 with > oracle duplexing. Different operating systems respond more or > less gracefully to the vanishing of a storage device (which > is the normal behavior of a failed disk on a RAID-0 set on a > HW array). There's too many variables possible to list out > the scenarios, but I would definitely definitely test failing > a RAID-0 set under load before I would go live with redo logs > on raid-0. > > Thanks, > Matt > > -- > Matthew Zito > GridApp Systems > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cell: 646-220-3551 > Phone: 212-358-8211 x 359 > http://www.gridapp.com > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf > > Of Thomas Day > > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:05 PM > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > Subject: BAARF > > > > > > > > I would love to have a definitive site that I could send all RAID-F > > advocates to where it would be laid out clearly, unambiguously, and > > definitively what storage types should be used for what purpose. > > > > Redo logs on RAID 0 with Oracle duplexing (y/n)? > > Rollback (or undo) ditto? > > Write intensive tablespaces on RAID 1+0 (or should that be > > 0+1)? Read intensive tablespaces on RAID ? (I guess 5 is OK > > since it's cheaper than 1+0 and you won't have the write penalty) > > > > While we're at it could we blow up the OFA myth? Since you're > > tablespaces are on datafiles that are on logical volumns > that are on > > physical devices which may contain one or many actual > disks, does it > > really make sense to worry (from a performance standpoint) about > > separating tables and indexes into different tablespaces? > > > > We have killed the "everything in one extent" myth haven't we? > > Everybody's comfortable with tables that have 100's of extents? > > > > And while we're at it, could we include the Oracle 9 multiple > > blocksizes and how to use them. The best that I've seen is > indexes in > > big blocks, tables in small blocks --- uh, oh, time to > separate tables > > and indexes. > > > > Maybe we will never get rid of the OFA myth. > > > > Just venting. > > > > Tired of arguing in front of management with Oracle certified DBAs > > that RAID 5 is not good, OFA is unnecessary, and uniform extents is > > the only way to go. Looking for a big stick to catch their > attention > > with. > > > > > > -- > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > > -- > > Author: Thomas Day > > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web > hosting services > > > - > > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the > > name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send > > the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > > > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: Matthew Zito > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXA
RE: BAARF
And what do you suggest? "Matthew Zito" @gridapp.com>cc: Sent by: Subject: RE: BAARF ml-errors 09/25/2003 02:29 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L I would strongly advise against redo logs on RAID-0 with oracle duplexing. Different operating systems respond more or less gracefully to the vanishing of a storage device (which is the normal behavior of a failed disk on a RAID-0 set on a HW array). There's too many variables possible to list out the scenarios, but I would definitely definitely test failing a RAID-0 set under load before I would go live with redo logs on raid-0. Thanks, Matt -- Matthew Zito GridApp Systems Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 646-220-3551 Phone: 212-358-8211 x 359 http://www.gridapp.com > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Thomas Day > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:05 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > Subject: BAARF > > > > I would love to have a definitive site that I could send all > RAID-F advocates to where it would be laid out clearly, > unambiguously, and definitively what storage types should be > used for what purpose. > > Redo logs on RAID 0 with Oracle duplexing (y/n)? > Rollback (or undo) ditto? > Write intensive tablespaces on RAID 1+0 (or should that be > 0+1)? Read intensive tablespaces on RAID ? (I guess 5 is OK > since it's cheaper than 1+0 and you won't have the write penalty) > > While we're at it could we blow up the OFA myth? Since > you're tablespaces are on datafiles that are on logical > volumns that are on physical devices which may contain one or > many actual disks, does it really make sense to worry (from a > performance standpoint) about separating tables and indexes > into different tablespaces? > > We have killed the "everything in one extent" myth haven't > we? Everybody's comfortable with tables that have 100's of extents? > > And while we're at it, could we include the Oracle 9 multiple > blocksizes and how to use them. The best that I've seen is > indexes in big blocks, tables in small blocks --- uh, oh, > time to separate tables and indexes. > > Maybe we will never get rid of the OFA myth. > > Just venting. > > Tired of arguing in front of management with Oracle certified > DBAs that RAID 5 is not good, OFA is unnecessary, and uniform > extents is the only way to go. Looking for a big stick to > catch their attention with. > > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: Thomas Day > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') > and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB > ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed > from). You may also
RE: BAARF
I would strongly advise against redo logs on RAID-0 with oracle duplexing. Different operating systems respond more or less gracefully to the vanishing of a storage device (which is the normal behavior of a failed disk on a RAID-0 set on a HW array). There's too many variables possible to list out the scenarios, but I would definitely definitely test failing a RAID-0 set under load before I would go live with redo logs on raid-0. Thanks, Matt -- Matthew Zito GridApp Systems Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 646-220-3551 Phone: 212-358-8211 x 359 http://www.gridapp.com > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Thomas Day > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:05 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > Subject: BAARF > > > > I would love to have a definitive site that I could send all > RAID-F advocates to where it would be laid out clearly, > unambiguously, and definitively what storage types should be > used for what purpose. > > Redo logs on RAID 0 with Oracle duplexing (y/n)? > Rollback (or undo) ditto? > Write intensive tablespaces on RAID 1+0 (or should that be > 0+1)? Read intensive tablespaces on RAID ? (I guess 5 is OK > since it's cheaper than 1+0 and you won't have the write penalty) > > While we're at it could we blow up the OFA myth? Since > you're tablespaces are on datafiles that are on logical > volumns that are on physical devices which may contain one or > many actual disks, does it really make sense to worry (from a > performance standpoint) about separating tables and indexes > into different tablespaces? > > We have killed the "everything in one extent" myth haven't > we? Everybody's comfortable with tables that have 100's of extents? > > And while we're at it, could we include the Oracle 9 multiple > blocksizes and how to use them. The best that I've seen is > indexes in big blocks, tables in small blocks --- uh, oh, > time to separate tables and indexes. > > Maybe we will never get rid of the OFA myth. > > Just venting. > > Tired of arguing in front of management with Oracle certified > DBAs that RAID 5 is not good, OFA is unnecessary, and uniform > extents is the only way to go. Looking for a big stick to > catch their attention with. > > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: Thomas Day > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') > and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB > ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed > from). You may also send the HELP command for other > information (like subscribing). > -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Matthew Zito INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
BAARF
I would love to have a definitive site that I could send all RAID-F advocates to where it would be laid out clearly, unambiguously, and definitively what storage types should be used for what purpose. Redo logs on RAID 0 with Oracle duplexing (y/n)? Rollback (or undo) ditto? Write intensive tablespaces on RAID 1+0 (or should that be 0+1)? Read intensive tablespaces on RAID ? (I guess 5 is OK since it's cheaper than 1+0 and you won't have the write penalty) While we're at it could we blow up the OFA myth? Since you're tablespaces are on datafiles that are on logical volumns that are on physical devices which may contain one or many actual disks, does it really make sense to worry (from a performance standpoint) about separating tables and indexes into different tablespaces? We have killed the "everything in one extent" myth haven't we? Everybody's comfortable with tables that have 100's of extents? And while we're at it, could we include the Oracle 9 multiple blocksizes and how to use them. The best that I've seen is indexes in big blocks, tables in small blocks --- uh, oh, time to separate tables and indexes. Maybe we will never get rid of the OFA myth. Just venting. Tired of arguing in front of management with Oracle certified DBAs that RAID 5 is not good, OFA is unnecessary, and uniform extents is the only way to go. Looking for a big stick to catch their attention with. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Thomas Day INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: what is BAARF?
Well, we've begun to put good stuff about RAID-F on www.BAARF.com, including the good writing by Art Kagel mentioned below. One of the fantastic gems that just arrived today from a good source is the one from Sun where they describe a very unique way of implementing RAID-10 that actually makes it slower than RAID-5. Yes, sir. They succeed where noone has succeeded before ;-). There's of course also the original RAID paper plus Cary's "Is RAID-5 really a bargain?" plus Sane SAN. We're probably missing a lot of good writings on this topic on the list - if you know of a good article or pointer, just let us know. Mogens Bob Lofstrand wrote: It is good to see Oracle and Informix DBAs agree on something once in a while. Art Kagel and many others from the Informix list have been fighting the good fight for a long time. http://www.smooth1.demon.co.uk/ifaq06.htm#6.58 I sent this baarf link to a former co-worker still in the Informix world. I got this response: Bob, That is impeccable timing. I was in Dallas last week with Victor and James looking at SAN systems from Hitachi and IBM. Both vendors were heavily pushing RAID-5 and treated me like a leper when I objected. Troy. My question is what to do from a practical point of view. How have others approached convincing management that RAID 5 is the devil. I guess what I want is a list of the most effective questions and facts that will make these vendors look like idiots when they refuse to give up on RAID 5. -Original Message- From: Cary Millsap [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 2:29 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: what is BAARF? See www.baarf.com. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 1:20 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I see it here all the time. Any articles on it? Im assuming its some kind of storage system right? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the intended use of the addressee only; it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive, or legally privileged information. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, distribution, dissemination, use, or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete this communication, and destroy all copies. Corporate Systems, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. We specifically disclaim all liability and will accept no responsibility for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. Hesin e-postur er kannaður fyri virus av Føroya Tele. This e-mail was virus scanned by Faroese Telecom. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'Lis
RE: what is BAARF?
Title: Message Interesting discussion. this is the first time I have seen objections to RAID technology. My cohort in crime, my senior developer (Lee Achorn), and I discussed this at length yesterday and without knowing the compelling arguments came to the conclusion that at least for a database system that maintains transaction logs (are these Redo logs for Oracle?) on off-server real estate and a good back up regimen is in place then why would one need RAID 5? We are running RAID 5 here at MacDill and we have had 4 single disk failures in the last 14 months. The rebuild time has essentially been 45 minutes to 90 minutes with degraded server operations. v/r Stephen S. Wolfe, GS-11, DAFC Data Services Manager [EMAIL PROTECTED] (813) 827-9974 DSN 651-9974 -Original Message-From: Bob Lofstrand [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 6:49 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: what is BAARF? It is good to see Oracle and Informix DBAs agree on something once in a while. Art Kagel and many others from the Informix list have been fighting the good fight for a long time. http://www.smooth1.demon.co.uk/ifaq06.htm#6.58 I sent this baarf link to a former co-worker still in the Informix world. I got this response: Bob, That is impeccable timing. I was in Dallas last week with Victor and James looking at SAN systems from Hitachi and IBM. Both vendors were heavily pushing RAID-5 and treated me like a leper when I objected. Troy. My question is what to do from a practical point of view. How have others approached convincing management that RAID 5 is the devil. I guess what I want is a list of the most effective questions and facts that will make these vendors look like idiots when they refuse to give up on RAID 5. -Original Message- From: Cary Millsap [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 2:29 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: what is BAARF? See www.baarf.com. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 1:20 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I see it here all the time. Any articles on it? Im assuming its some kind of storage system right? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the intended use of the addressee only; it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive, or legally privileged information. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, distribution, dissemination, use, or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete this communication, and destroy all copies. Corporate Systems, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. We specifically disclaim all liability and will accept no responsibility for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.
RE: what is BAARF? --- OFA
You may want to check out Bill Burke's paper "Putting Oracle's OFA on Steriods" at http:// www.oracleguru.com Is Bill still on this list? - Kirti --- "Jesse, Rich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hey Tim, > > D'oh! The problem with e-mail is that it takes an hour to convey what would > take 5 minutes in person... :) > > While I stand by my original e-mail, I do understand that OFA was designed > to do exactly what the acronym says: be optimal and flexible. My problem > with it is that I do not see OFA as optimal, at least not anymore. Perhaps > it's just me, but I just don't understand the reasoning of the parts of OFA > I had outlined now nor 14 years ago. Maybe it's because I had much more > hair 13-14 years ago (more on my head, at least, with less in other places), > and the combined human caused faults/accidents over those years has caused > me to be much more strict in the way I'd like to see hardware and software > set up. Or perhaps it's because I cut my teeth on VMS and haven't conformed > to accepted Unix practice, nor do I see a need to if an alternative can be > established as being subjectively "better" (re: "/unn" mountpoints). > > OK, enough of my babble. I would LOVE to see OFA updated! I won't hold my > breath that any of my suggestions would be incorporated, but then again I'm > just one person. I'll happily continue using a mostly-OFA setup. Except on > VMS, which Oracle Corp does not conform to OFA at least thru v8.1.7. Then > again, we have no more VMS... :( > > BTW, wasn't dangling from a clock tower Harold Lloyd's trademark? :) > > Thanks for listening to my whining, > Rich > > Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Tim Gorman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 11:09 AM > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > Subject: Re: what is BAARF? --- OFA > > > > > > Rich, > > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Kirtikumar Deshpande INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: what is BAARF? --- OFA
Tim, James, Mogens, Group, Another BAARF advocate here... However, I recognize Tim's problem when HW vendors: a) push raid5 or some form of autoraid. b) push for 8 separate disks of 125G each with only redo-files on them... While the BAARF initiative should continue in its simple, elegant and forcefull form (hammer the msg home), I want to place a call to Gary, Tim and others, to undertake A Revamp of the original OFA paper. Determine the new requirements (most of the old ones still stand!) and from the requirements, enhance the OFA-structure. It should take into account: - SAN capabilities (snapshotting and snapshot-logs or caches) - RAC and Clustered file systems, anticipate on 10G. - easy of admin: single point of admin per database, not per instance. - make provisions for (physical) copies (acceptance/testing/development) - standby-db constructions (including for RAC-dbs, and favour good-old-and-simple sqlplus ;-). - Weigh the importance of redo-speed against things like archive-storage and recoverability based on snap-copies. Separate redo-files only if redo is your bottleneck. Tip: Redo-files are the easiest db-files to move around: just add new groups... Any Takers ? Any ideas for a joint-effort ? Regards, PdV Oracle DBA. DTMWFI, FWIW, JMTC and YMWV (of course it will) PS: Frustration cost me my lunch break. Me too, Got bitten badly by a hardware vendor recently for _not_ putting aside 35% of my multi-TB disk-capacity exclusively for redos. Salesman dreams to sell an additional nr of disks at 5% utilization because of the trueism: "redo files should be on private, physical, devices". He even knew of OFA, the Oracle-FILE-Architecture :-). Any advertising, as long as they spell the name right -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Piet de Visser INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: what is BAARF? --- OFA
Hey Tim, D'oh! The problem with e-mail is that it takes an hour to convey what would take 5 minutes in person... :) While I stand by my original e-mail, I do understand that OFA was designed to do exactly what the acronym says: be optimal and flexible. My problem with it is that I do not see OFA as optimal, at least not anymore. Perhaps it's just me, but I just don't understand the reasoning of the parts of OFA I had outlined now nor 14 years ago. Maybe it's because I had much more hair 13-14 years ago (more on my head, at least, with less in other places), and the combined human caused faults/accidents over those years has caused me to be much more strict in the way I'd like to see hardware and software set up. Or perhaps it's because I cut my teeth on VMS and haven't conformed to accepted Unix practice, nor do I see a need to if an alternative can be established as being subjectively "better" (re: "/unn" mountpoints). OK, enough of my babble. I would LOVE to see OFA updated! I won't hold my breath that any of my suggestions would be incorporated, but then again I'm just one person. I'll happily continue using a mostly-OFA setup. Except on VMS, which Oracle Corp does not conform to OFA at least thru v8.1.7. Then again, we have no more VMS... :( BTW, wasn't dangling from a clock tower Harold Lloyd's trademark? :) Thanks for listening to my whining, Rich Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA > -Original Message- > From: Tim Gorman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 11:09 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > Subject: Re: what is BAARF? --- OFA > > > Rich, > > The original author of OFA is an active contributor to this > list, but I > don't know whether there will be a response, so I thought I'd jump in. > > Optimal Flexible Architecture (OFA) was such a fundamental > dose of common > sense 13-14 years ago that it's very revolution has lost it's > sting over the > years. Kind of like the way that nobody finds the Marx > Brothers movies to > be funny anymore, because every other comedy movie > immediately fell into the > same pattern, causing everyone to forget that movies comedies > previosly > meant people bashing each other in the head and dangling from > clock towers > and stuff... > > Oracle used to ship everything under the $ORACLE_HOME > directory, which was > bad in so many ways it can't be counted. If I were to > summarize OFA, it was > recognition that at least three major sets of directory > structures were > needed: > > * software distribution > * administrative, trace, and log files > * database files > > Each had to be separated, because each gets treated > differently. Software > distribution would be updated and upgraded. Admin files had > to persist > across updates/upgrades but not be lumped in with the actual > database. The > actual database had to be treated differently than either > software or admin > files for obvious reasons. > > Yes, naming online redo log files with ".log" extensions is > bad; I went to > recommending ".rdo" extensions long ago for that reason. OFA > isn't hung up > on specific names, in fact the original paper specifically > avoids suggesting > names other than for illustration purposes. Same with the > MTPT names... > > Just as with the Marx Brothers movies, imagine a world where > OFA didn't > exist, where the author didn't push and push and push and > push the Oracle > product folks to see the light and stop installing product as if every > server was a desktop PC... > > Hope this helps... > > -Tim > > > on 8/5/03 7:49 AM, Jesse, Rich at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Not a "taker", but I'll put in my disdain for OFA, taken > from the OFA doc at > > http://download-west.oracle.com/docs/html/A97297_01/appg_ofa.htm : > > > > 1) Who in their right minds thought it was a good idea to > name the redos > > with a ".log" extention? It's asking for trouble, if not > from a DBA, then > > from an SA or a script that's used to clean up old log > files. Why the risk? > > > > 2) For similar reasons, I refuse to create the database files under > > $ORACLE_BASE. How often does a DBA peruse that file tree? > Daily, for me. > > Put them on a separate directory off of "/" on Unix, or > their own drive > > letter for Winders. Then, anyone wanting to mess with the > files from the &g
Re: what is BAARF? --- OFA
Hi! > 4) I think the "/u01", "/u02", etc. MP naming is a pain. They mean > nothing. In a disaster recovery, the last thing you want is to have someone > forget what "/u01" is. This is the 21st century, people! We have the power > to NAME DIRECTORIES something meaningful! I still like to use concept of /u[0-9][0-9]/oradata/$DBNAME, that means database name is included in directory path and I can use wildcards when playing around in file system. Other notation I've seen is somewhat opposite: /data/$DBNAME/[0-9][0-9]/ Other installations have used no standard for placing datafiles or have used "random" as standard :| Tanel. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Tanel Poder INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: what is BAARF? --- OFA
Rich, The original author of OFA is an active contributor to this list, but I don't know whether there will be a response, so I thought I'd jump in. Optimal Flexible Architecture (OFA) was such a fundamental dose of common sense 13-14 years ago that it's very revolution has lost it's sting over the years. Kind of like the way that nobody finds the Marx Brothers movies to be funny anymore, because every other comedy movie immediately fell into the same pattern, causing everyone to forget that movies comedies previosly meant people bashing each other in the head and dangling from clock towers and stuff... Oracle used to ship everything under the $ORACLE_HOME directory, which was bad in so many ways it can't be counted. If I were to summarize OFA, it was recognition that at least three major sets of directory structures were needed: * software distribution * administrative, trace, and log files * database files Each had to be separated, because each gets treated differently. Software distribution would be updated and upgraded. Admin files had to persist across updates/upgrades but not be lumped in with the actual database. The actual database had to be treated differently than either software or admin files for obvious reasons. Yes, naming online redo log files with ".log" extensions is bad; I went to recommending ".rdo" extensions long ago for that reason. OFA isn't hung up on specific names, in fact the original paper specifically avoids suggesting names other than for illustration purposes. Same with the MTPT names... Just as with the Marx Brothers movies, imagine a world where OFA didn't exist, where the author didn't push and push and push and push the Oracle product folks to see the light and stop installing product as if every server was a desktop PC... Hope this helps... -Tim on 8/5/03 7:49 AM, Jesse, Rich at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Not a "taker", but I'll put in my disdain for OFA, taken from the OFA doc at > http://download-west.oracle.com/docs/html/A97297_01/appg_ofa.htm : > > 1) Who in their right minds thought it was a good idea to name the redos > with a ".log" extention? It's asking for trouble, if not from a DBA, then > from an SA or a script that's used to clean up old log files. Why the risk? > > 2) For similar reasons, I refuse to create the database files under > $ORACLE_BASE. How often does a DBA peruse that file tree? Daily, for me. > Put them on a separate directory off of "/" on Unix, or their own drive > letter for Winders. Then, anyone wanting to mess with the files from the > O/S level usually needs to go there on purpose and not by accident (unless > "root" does an "rm -R *" from "/", in which case there ain't a whole lot you > can do anyway). > > 3) Having the administrative directory structure (table G-8 on the above > link) is impractical at best, and dangerous at worst. If you lose one MP > (mount point; one set of drives), you lose all instances. To prevent this, > you'd need to create SEVERAL MPs for each DB, even on a small system. This > just isn't going to happen. Instead, we make an "admin" directory under > $ORACLE_BASE, then a "DBNAME" directory for each DB underneath that. The > appropriate adump, bdump, cdump, udump, pfile, etc. directories are then > created for each DBNAME. Then, if necessary, each DBNAME directory can have > their own MP, for recoverability and scalability (I wouldn't stretch it to > include "performance"!). > > 4) I think the "/u01", "/u02", etc. MP naming is a pain. They mean > nothing. In a disaster recovery, the last thing you want is to have someone > forget what "/u01" is. This is the 21st century, people! We have the power > to NAME DIRECTORIES something meaningful! > > NOFA! :) > > Rich > > Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA > > > >> -Original Message- >> From: Piet de Visser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 6:39 AM >> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L >> Subject: Re: what is BAARF? --- OFA >> >> >> Tim, James, Mogens, Group, >> >> Another BAARF advocate here... >> >> However, I recognize Tim's problem when HW vendors: >> a) push raid5 or some form of autoraid. >> b) push for 8 separate disks of 125G each with only >> redo-files on them... >> >> While the BAARF initiative should continue in its simple, >> elegant and forcefull form (hammer the msg home), >> I want to place a call to Gary, Tim
RE: what is BAARF?
Rachel Carmichael scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: > if nominated I will not run, if elected I shall not serve but think of the distraction if you wear THE DRESS.;-) -- Bill "Shrek" Thater ORACLE DBA BAARF Party member #25 [EMAIL PROTECTED] There's nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear. - Daniel Dennett -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: what is BAARF? --- OFA
Not a "taker", but I'll put in my disdain for OFA, taken from the OFA doc at http://download-west.oracle.com/docs/html/A97297_01/appg_ofa.htm : 1) Who in their right minds thought it was a good idea to name the redos with a ".log" extention? It's asking for trouble, if not from a DBA, then from an SA or a script that's used to clean up old log files. Why the risk? 2) For similar reasons, I refuse to create the database files under $ORACLE_BASE. How often does a DBA peruse that file tree? Daily, for me. Put them on a separate directory off of "/" on Unix, or their own drive letter for Winders. Then, anyone wanting to mess with the files from the O/S level usually needs to go there on purpose and not by accident (unless "root" does an "rm -R *" from "/", in which case there ain't a whole lot you can do anyway). 3) Having the administrative directory structure (table G-8 on the above link) is impractical at best, and dangerous at worst. If you lose one MP (mount point; one set of drives), you lose all instances. To prevent this, you'd need to create SEVERAL MPs for each DB, even on a small system. This just isn't going to happen. Instead, we make an "admin" directory under $ORACLE_BASE, then a "DBNAME" directory for each DB underneath that. The appropriate adump, bdump, cdump, udump, pfile, etc. directories are then created for each DBNAME. Then, if necessary, each DBNAME directory can have their own MP, for recoverability and scalability (I wouldn't stretch it to include "performance"!). 4) I think the "/u01", "/u02", etc. MP naming is a pain. They mean nothing. In a disaster recovery, the last thing you want is to have someone forget what "/u01" is. This is the 21st century, people! We have the power to NAME DIRECTORIES something meaningful! NOFA! :) Rich Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech Inc, Sussex, WI USA > -Original Message- > From: Piet de Visser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 6:39 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > Subject: Re: what is BAARF? --- OFA > > > Tim, James, Mogens, Group, > > Another BAARF advocate here... > > However, I recognize Tim's problem when HW vendors: > a) push raid5 or some form of autoraid. > b) push for 8 separate disks of 125G each with only > redo-files on them... > > While the BAARF initiative should continue in its simple, > elegant and forcefull form (hammer the msg home), > I want to place a call to Gary, Tim and others, > to undertake A Revamp of the original OFA paper. > > Determine the new requirements (most of the old ones still stand!) > and from the requirements, enhance the OFA-structure. > It should take into account: > - SAN capabilities (snapshotting and snapshot-logs or caches) > - RAC and Clustered file systems, anticipate on 10G. > - easy of admin: single point of admin per database, not per > instance. > - make provisions for (physical) copies > (acceptance/testing/development) > - standby-db constructions (including for RAC-dbs, and > favour good-old-and-simple sqlplus ;-). > - Weigh the importance of redo-speed against things like > archive-storage and recoverability based on snap-copies. > Separate redo-files only if redo is your bottleneck. Tip: Redo-files > are the easiest db-files to move around: just add new groups... > > Any Takers ? > Any ideas for a joint-effort ? > > > Regards, > > PdV > > Oracle DBA. > > DTMWFI, FWIW, JMTC and YMWV (of course it will) > > > PS: Frustration cost me my lunch break. > Me too, Got bitten badly by a hardware vendor recently for _not_ > putting aside 35% of my multi-TB disk-capacity exclusively for redos. > Salesman dreams to sell an additional nr of disks at 5% utilization > because of the trueism: > "redo files should be on private, physical, devices". > He even knew of OFA, the Oracle-FILE-Architecture :-). > Any advertising, as long as they spell the name right -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: what is BAARF?
virtual tar and feathers comes to mind... RAID5 has it's place, which always happens to be in someone else's shop. "Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/04/2003 03:54 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject:Re: what is BAARF? thanks... that article is pretty funny. what would happen if i started advocating using RAID-5 on here? - Original Message - To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 5:24 PM > if nominated I will not run, if elected I shall not serve > > > --- "Karniotis, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The Web Site given to us by Cary, www.baarf.com, indicates that a > > spokesperson, similar to that of the Iraqi Information Minister, is > > being > > looked for. > > > > Thus, to forward the harmony of the organization, I nominate the > > following > > people for consideration > > > > 1. Gaja - Always a good spokesperson and we can have fun with > > him > > 2. Mogens - Could use his sarcasm to benefit the US audience. > > 3. Rachel "Super Babe" Carmichael - No explanation needed > > > > > > Thank You > > > > Stephen P. Karniotis > > Technical Alliance Manager > > Compuware Corporation > > Direct: (313) 227-4350 > > Mobile: (248) 408-2918 > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Web: www.compuware.com > > > > -Original Message- > > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 3:35 PM > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > > > > > > > > > > According to http://www.baarf.com/ > > > > Battle Against Any Raid F > > > > BAARF was invented by James Morle on Wednesday the 4th of June, 2003, > > in > > the Grange hotel outside Birmingham while having a beer or two with > > Mogens > > Nørgaard. > > > > > > On the following day - Thursday the 5th of June, which happens to be > > the > > Danish national holiday celebrating our constitution - the Battle > > Agaist > > Any Raid Five initiative was announced jointly by James and Mogens in > > front > > of the UK Oracle User Group UNIX Special Interest Group meeting at > > the > > Grange hotel. > > > > > > Both announcers were careful to sport the "Enough is Enough" look > > (including arms folded across the chest) while delivering the message > > to > > about 80 delegates. > > > > > > It's important to note, that RAID-3, -4, and -5 are all included in > > the > > initiative, so the F in BAARF both stands for Five, Four, and > > ...err... > > Free. > > > > > > > > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > >To: Multiple > > recipients > > of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent by: cc: > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: what is > > BAARF? > > > > .com > > > > > > > > > > > > 08/04/2003 02:19 > > > > PM > > > > Please respond to > > > > ORACLE-L > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see it here all the time. Any articles on it? Im assuming its some > > kind > > of storage system right? > > > > -- > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > > -- > > Author: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > > - > > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > > > > -- > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > > -- > > Author: > > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Fat City Netwo
RE: what is BAARF?
Title: RE: what is BAARF? Guys, I am trying to spread the word of BAARF. -Original Message-From: Bob Lofstrand [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 6:49 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: what is BAARF? It is good to see Oracle and Informix DBAs agree on something once in a while. Art Kagel and many others from the Informix list have been fighting the good fight for a long time. http://www.smooth1.demon.co.uk/ifaq06.htm#6.58 I sent this baarf link to a former co-worker still in the Informix world. I got this response: Bob, That is impeccable timing. I was in Dallas last week with Victor and James looking at SAN systems from Hitachi and IBM. Both vendors were heavily pushing RAID-5 and treated me like a leper when I objected. Troy. My question is what to do from a practical point of view. How have others approached convincing management that RAID 5 is the devil. I guess what I want is a list of the most effective questions and facts that will make these vendors look like idiots when they refuse to give up on RAID 5. -Original Message- From: Cary Millsap [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 2:29 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: what is BAARF? See www.baarf.com. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 1:20 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I see it here all the time. Any articles on it? Im assuming its some kind of storage system right? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the intended use of the addressee only; it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive, or legally privileged information. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, distribution, dissemination, use, or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete this communication, and destroy all copies. Corporate Systems, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. We specifically disclaim all liability and will accept no responsibility for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.
Re: what is BAARF?
thanks... that article is pretty funny. what would happen if i started advocating using RAID-5 on here? - Original Message - To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 5:24 PM > if nominated I will not run, if elected I shall not serve > > > --- "Karniotis, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The Web Site given to us by Cary, www.baarf.com, indicates that a > > spokesperson, similar to that of the Iraqi Information Minister, is > > being > > looked for. > > > > Thus, to forward the harmony of the organization, I nominate the > > following > > people for consideration > > > > 1. Gaja - Always a good spokesperson and we can have fun with > > him > > 2. Mogens - Could use his sarcasm to benefit the US audience. > > 3. Rachel "Super Babe" Carmichael - No explanation needed > > > > > > Thank You > > > > Stephen P. Karniotis > > Technical Alliance Manager > > Compuware Corporation > > Direct: (313) 227-4350 > > Mobile: (248) 408-2918 > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Web: www.compuware.com > > > > -Original Message- > > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 3:35 PM > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > > > > > > > > > > According to http://www.baarf.com/ > > > > Battle Against Any Raid F > > > > BAARF was invented by James Morle on Wednesday the 4th of June, 2003, > > in > > the Grange hotel outside Birmingham while having a beer or two with > > Mogens > > Nørgaard. > > > > > > On the following day - Thursday the 5th of June, which happens to be > > the > > Danish national holiday celebrating our constitution - the Battle > > Agaist > > Any Raid Five initiative was announced jointly by James and Mogens in > > front > > of the UK Oracle User Group UNIX Special Interest Group meeting at > > the > > Grange hotel. > > > > > > Both announcers were careful to sport the "Enough is Enough" look > > (including arms folded across the chest) while delivering the message > > to > > about 80 delegates. > > > > > > It's important to note, that RAID-3, -4, and -5 are all included in > > the > > initiative, so the F in BAARF both stands for Five, Four, and > > ...err... > > Free. > > > > > > > > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > >To: Multiple > > recipients > > of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent by: cc: > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: what is > > BAARF? > > > > .com > > > > > > > > > > > > 08/04/2003 02:19 > > > > PM > > > > Please respond to > > > > ORACLE-L > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see it here all the time. Any articles on it? Im assuming its some > > kind > > of storage system right? > > > > -- > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > > -- > > Author: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > > - > > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > > > > -- > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > > -- > > Author: > > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > > - > > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling
RE: what is BAARF?
Title: RE: what is BAARF? It is good to see Oracle and Informix DBAs agree on something once in a while. Art Kagel and many others from the Informix list have been fighting the good fight for a long time. http://www.smooth1.demon.co.uk/ifaq06.htm#6.58 I sent this baarf link to a former co-worker still in the Informix world. I got this response: Bob, That is impeccable timing. I was in Dallas last week with Victor and James looking at SAN systems from Hitachi and IBM. Both vendors were heavily pushing RAID-5 and treated me like a leper when I objected. Troy. My question is what to do from a practical point of view. How have others approached convincing management that RAID 5 is the devil. I guess what I want is a list of the most effective questions and facts that will make these vendors look like idiots when they refuse to give up on RAID 5. -Original Message- From: Cary Millsap [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 2:29 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: what is BAARF? See www.baarf.com. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 1:20 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I see it here all the time. Any articles on it? Im assuming its some kind of storage system right? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the intended use of the addressee only; it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive, or legally privileged information. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, distribution, dissemination, use, or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete this communication, and destroy all copies. Corporate Systems, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. We specifically disclaim all liability and will accept no responsibility for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.
RE: what is BAARF?
if nominated I will not run, if elected I shall not serve --- "Karniotis, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The Web Site given to us by Cary, www.baarf.com, indicates that a > spokesperson, similar to that of the Iraqi Information Minister, is > being > looked for. > > Thus, to forward the harmony of the organization, I nominate the > following > people for consideration > > 1.Gaja- Always a good spokesperson and we can have fun with > him > 2.Mogens - Could use his sarcasm to benefit the US audience. > 3. Rachel "Super Babe" Carmichael - No explanation needed > > > Thank You > > Stephen P. Karniotis > Technical Alliance Manager > Compuware Corporation > Direct: (313) 227-4350 > Mobile: (248) 408-2918 > Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Web: www.compuware.com > > -Original Message- > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 3:35 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > > > > According to http://www.baarf.com/ > > Battle Against Any Raid F > > BAARF was invented by James Morle on Wednesday the 4th of June, 2003, > in > the Grange hotel outside Birmingham while having a beer or two with > Mogens > Nørgaard. > > > On the following day - Thursday the 5th of June, which happens to be > the > Danish national holiday celebrating our constitution - the Battle > Agaist > Any Raid Five initiative was announced jointly by James and Mogens in > front > of the UK Oracle User Group UNIX Special Interest Group meeting at > the > Grange hotel. > > > Both announcers were careful to sport the "Enough is Enough" look > (including arms folded across the chest) while delivering the message > to > about 80 delegates. > > > It's important to note, that RAID-3, -4, and -5 are all included in > the > initiative, so the F in BAARF both stands for Five, Four, and > ...err... > Free. > > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >To: Multiple > recipients > of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent by: cc: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: what is > BAARF? > > .com > > > > > > 08/04/2003 02:19 > > PM > > Please respond to > > ORACLE-L > > > > > > > > > > I see it here all the time. Any articles on it? Im assuming its some > kind > of storage system right? > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > > > > The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee > only. It > contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the > named > addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or > disclose > it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us > immediately > and then destroy it. > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: Karniotis, Stephen > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Di
RE: what is BAARF?
The Web Site given to us by Cary, www.baarf.com, indicates that a spokesperson, similar to that of the Iraqi Information Minister, is being looked for. Thus, to forward the harmony of the organization, I nominate the following people for consideration 1. Gaja- Always a good spokesperson and we can have fun with him 2. Mogens - Could use his sarcasm to benefit the US audience. 3. Rachel "Super Babe" Carmichael - No explanation needed Thank You Stephen P. Karniotis Technical Alliance Manager Compuware Corporation Direct: (313) 227-4350 Mobile: (248) 408-2918 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web:www.compuware.com -Original Message- Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 3:35 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L According to http://www.baarf.com/ Battle Against Any Raid F BAARF was invented by James Morle on Wednesday the 4th of June, 2003, in the Grange hotel outside Birmingham while having a beer or two with Mogens Nørgaard. On the following day - Thursday the 5th of June, which happens to be the Danish national holiday celebrating our constitution - the Battle Agaist Any Raid Five initiative was announced jointly by James and Mogens in front of the UK Oracle User Group UNIX Special Interest Group meeting at the Grange hotel. Both announcers were careful to sport the "Enough is Enough" look (including arms folded across the chest) while delivering the message to about 80 delegates. It's important to note, that RAID-3, -4, and -5 are all included in the initiative, so the F in BAARF both stands for Five, Four, and ...err... Free. <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: what is BAARF? .com 08/04/2003 02:19 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L I see it here all the time. Any articles on it? Im assuming its some kind of storage system right? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Karniotis, Stephen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: what is BAARF?
Hi Have a look at http://www.baarf.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see it here all the time. Any articles on it? Im assuming its some kind of storage system right? -- Peter Gram, Miracle A/S Phone : +45 2527 7107, Fax : +45 4466 8856, Home +45 3874 5696 mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://MiracleAS.dk -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Peter Gram INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: what is BAARF?
According to http://www.baarf.com/ Battle Against Any Raid F BAARF was invented by James Morle on Wednesday the 4th of June, 2003, in the Grange hotel outside Birmingham while having a beer or two with Mogens Nørgaard. On the following day - Thursday the 5th of June, which happens to be the Danish national holiday celebrating our constitution - the Battle Agaist Any Raid Five initiative was announced jointly by James and Mogens in front of the UK Oracle User Group UNIX Special Interest Group meeting at the Grange hotel. Both announcers were careful to sport the “Enough is Enough” look (including arms folded across the chest) while delivering the message to about 80 delegates. It’s important to note, that RAID-3, -4, and -5 are all included in the initiative, so the F in BAARF both stands for Five, Four, and …err… Free. <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: what is BAARF? .com 08/04/2003 02:19 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L I see it here all the time. Any articles on it? Im assuming its some kind of storage system right? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: what is BAARF?
See www.baarf.com. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 1:20 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I see it here all the time. Any articles on it? Im assuming its some kind of storage system right? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
what is BAARF?
I see it here all the time. Any articles on it? Im assuming its some kind of storage system right? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
PiP: Parity is Pain. Cary Millsap wrote: Here's the sequence of steps I've seen... 1. The salesman who bids RAID5 configuration wins the business, as per Dennis's story. He or she wins because the configuration requires fewer disks than the alternative RAID10 configuration. The salesman gets a nice commission and goes to his company's sales club. 2. Since the system was "sized" for storage capacity (byte counting) instead of I/O rate capacity (I/O-per-second counting), the system runs the risk of failing to keep up with I/O throughput requirements. Especially because RAID5 configurations perform more I/O operations than you think for every Oracle block written by DBWR. 3. If the system has a high enough I/O rate, the company that bought the RAID5 configuration finds out the hard way that the I/O subsystem is severely undersized. The total price of the corrected configuration is more than if the company had bought the RAID10 configuration to begin with. It's a hard deal. BAARF. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Mladen Gogala Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dennis, to tell the truth, writing in oracle is not a big problem, as long as the redo files are not on RAID-5. Everything else can reside on RAID-5 without a visible performance impact. Second, RAID-5 vendors like EMC and Hitachi usually offer two versions of non-volatile cache: write-through one which essentially performs prefetch and a genuine full cache which caches both read and write calls. The latter type of cache, which is very expensive, is found on Symmetrix boxes only and not on former DG-Clariion boxes (talking EMC here). These types of RAID-5 implementation are usually referred to as RAID-6 or RAID-S. How to benchmark those? Well, the trick in benchmarking those systems is to do what one would never do with it's own system: put redo logs on RAID-5(6,S?), launch several threads of update intensive short transactions (OLTP mix) and count "user commits" from v$sysstat. Prior to that, establish a baseline with RAID 1+0 and see what is the difference. See how many commits would RAID-5 box record during the same time as RAID-1+0 box and you'll know the difference in speed. Also, make sure to pull out one of the disks while system is working and see what's the impact of resilvering. As for the entertainment value, I would hope that Julia Roberts and Mel Gibson would consider making a movie about the RAID-5 conspiracy. Julia would be a DBA trying to purchase a RAID box and Mel Gibson would be a honest RAID-5 salesman which would uncover a nasty EMC, IBM and Hitachi conspiracy. You can tell that it is a fiction because of the phrase "honest RAID salesman". The only problem would be to teach the two of them how not to sound "nucular". On 2003.06.15 14:14, DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote: Mladen - I would propose another theory. Please consider this rant for entertainment value, and hopefully to consider a book on this topic. Usually companies request bids from several vendors. If you as a storage salesperson always bid RAID1+0, you will always be underbid by your competitors, receive no commissions, and in the end be fired. If you always bid RAID5, you will probably receive some business, some commissions, and keep your job. Now, pretend I'm a storage system salesperson. Which system am I going to specify to the customer? Now, if the customer insists on purchasing RAID1+0 or whatever, I'll probably argue a little because I've been stung before where I was suckered into bidding RAID1+0 and then my ignoramus competitor just blindly quoted RAID5 and when it bubbled up to the V.P. he asked "why are you going with the more expensive vendor"? And trying to quote a salesperson isn't a good move at that point. I thought Rachel had a good point on this topic awhile back. If you are a top-notch consultant that is often called in to solve performance problems, you have often cured them by switching from RAID5. So you have a lot of confidence in it. But if you are the lowly on-site DBA just trying to hang onto your job in the political turbulence, you usually don't have enough facts to challenge the system administrators who trust their storage vendors a lot more than a DBA that couldn't actually configure a storage system to save his or her life. So suppose I do try to challenge the system administrators. I say that RAID1+0 will write faster than RAID5. The reply is "okay how much faster?" I mumble that
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
There is no question that RAID 10 performs better than RAID 5. But it highly questionable that every Oracle database requires RAID 10 for all its data files. Though I'd never consider putting redo logs on RAID 5 Also, often the DBA has no clue about what type of disk throughput is needed. Not because the DBA is ignorant, but extracting the information from the potential users which enables the DBA to arrive at an estimate is far too often close to impossible. Ian MacGregor Stanford Linear Accelerator Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 11:14 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Mladen - I would propose another theory. Please consider this rant for entertainment value, and hopefully to consider a book on this topic. Usually companies request bids from several vendors. If you as a storage salesperson always bid RAID1+0, you will always be underbid by your competitors, receive no commissions, and in the end be fired. If you always bid RAID5, you will probably receive some business, some commissions, and keep your job. Now, pretend I'm a storage system salesperson. Which system am I going to specify to the customer? Now, if the customer insists on purchasing RAID1+0 or whatever, I'll probably argue a little because I've been stung before where I was suckered into bidding RAID1+0 and then my ignoramus competitor just blindly quoted RAID5 and when it bubbled up to the V.P. he asked "why are you going with the more expensive vendor"? And trying to quote a salesperson isn't a good move at that point. I thought Rachel had a good point on this topic awhile back. If you are a top-notch consultant that is often called in to solve performance problems, you have often cured them by switching from RAID5. So you have a lot of confidence in it. But if you are the lowly on-site DBA just trying to hang onto your job in the political turbulence, you usually don't have enough facts to challenge the system administrators who trust their storage vendors a lot more than a DBA that couldn't actually configure a storage system to save his or her life. So suppose I do try to challenge the system administrators. I say that RAID1+0 will write faster than RAID5. The reply is "okay how much RAID1+faster?" I mumble that I've never seen any actual figures published anywhere. He or she says maybe at the low level there is a slight advantage to RAID1+0, but with a gig of battery-backed cache that won't be true. Or he or she asks "What does Oracle recommend?". And on it goes. Okay, I'm being provocative here. But how do I, a lowly DBA, prove which is faster? Should I talk my system administrator into going to the trouble of configuring a system both ways and run some tests? What type of tests would be most useful? If I choose the wrong test, and RAID5 looks just as good as RAID1+0, I'm sunk. Then for years to come when I try to make a point at a meeting someone will say "yeah, is this another RAID1+0 theory?" Dennis Williams DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L RAID-5 microkernel has more lines of code then Oracle7? Wow! This is an astonishing piece of information and if it wasn't coming from you, I'd dismiss it as yet another conspiracy theory. On 2003.06.15 01:44, Cary Millsap wrote: > > Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer > > selling RAID5 over RAID10. > > ...Because if they don't sell RAID5, they don't recover the R&D costs > of creating a RAID5 microkernel that has more lines of code than the > Oracle7 executable. I'm not kidding. > > > Cary Millsap > Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. > http://www.hotsos.com > > Upcoming events: > - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney > - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas > - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... > > > -Original Message- > Niall Litchfield > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 12:05 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > Jared writes > > At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. > > > > Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I > > wore it every day there. ;) > > I'm curious now. Pictures required. > > Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer > selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 > 5 > therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile > we have this strange situation where performance consultants are > publicising the fact that you have less need for performance > consultants with RAID10 than with RAID5. > > Niall > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: Niall Litchfield > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hos
RE: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
I'm not sure. You may be right. I thought that it was Larry Ellison, but then again, it's Monday and my memory is probably failing me. Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Phone:(203) 459-6855 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 4:25 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L That was McNealy that said HP was a great little printer company, wasn't it? Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Gogala, Mladen Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 2:10 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L When Larry met Carly? I don't know whether Carly is his type, but that would be some marriage! I can still remember the fiery relationship with Sandra Kurtzig, the former CEO of Ingres. Having in mind that HP is a "great printer company", according to Larry, I doubt that the relationship would work. Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Phone:(203) 459-6855 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 11:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L >- --- Original Message --- - >From: "Gogala, Mladen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 06:44:18 > >A movie with Julia Roberts or Meg Ryan is what I >had in mind. > >Mladen Gogala >Oracle DBA >Phone:(203) 459-6855 >Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > When Larry met Carly ? Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Gogala, Mladen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Gogala, Mladen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
That was McNealy that said HP was a great little printer company, wasn't it? Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Gogala, Mladen Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 2:10 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L When Larry met Carly? I don't know whether Carly is his type, but that would be some marriage! I can still remember the fiery relationship with Sandra Kurtzig, the former CEO of Ingres. Having in mind that HP is a "great printer company", according to Larry, I doubt that the relationship would work. Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Phone:(203) 459-6855 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 11:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L >- --- Original Message --- - >From: "Gogala, Mladen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 06:44:18 > >A movie with Julia Roberts or Meg Ryan is what I >had in mind. > >Mladen Gogala >Oracle DBA >Phone:(203) 459-6855 >Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > When Larry met Carly ? Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Gogala, Mladen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Okay, there's a variety of inaccuracies here. 1) "The (full cache), which is very expensive, is found on Symmetrix boxes only" - not true. In fact, just about every storage system today has some sort of protected write-back cache. This is true of hitachi, clariion, symmetrix, netapp, etc. EMC's implementation is a little different than some vendors' because it uses a lot of algorithms to determine where memory pressure exists within the cache and tweaks it accordingly. This can result in both better and worse performance under certain situations - your milage definitely varies in this case. 2) "These(write-back cache types) of RAID-5 implementation are usually referred to as RAID-6 or RAID-S" - I can't speak for what vendors say when they mean RAID-6, but RAID-S has nothing to do with cache strategies. RAID-S is a raid variant that is specific to EMC's strategy on disk layout. Basically, on a normal Symmetrix, you take a physical disk spindle: |---| and split it up into one or more "splits": ||||| and then you protect splits through mirroring them to splits on other disks, etc. With RAID-S you take 4 disks - its always 4 disks, you have no choice in the matter, and split them identically. You then take each positional split across all 4 disks, and one disk of splits becomes the parity and the rest become logical volumes. Sooo, it ends up looking like this: |--P1--|--P2--|--P3--|--P4--| |--D1--|--D4--|--D7--|--D10--| |--D2--|--D5--|--D8--|--D11--| |--D3--|--D6--|--D9--|--D12--| each one of these D-volumes becomes one logical volume that's exposed to the host, so you end up with 12 data volumes exposed to the host. So, its sort of an odd raid-4-ish - there's no striping per se - each split of the disks becomes a logical volume exposed to the host. When a write occurs to D2, let's say, the accompanying data block from D3 and D1 is fetched, and the XOR'ed parity result written to the P1 split. Horrifying? Yes, a little bit - but on non-cache-hungry workloads, it stands up pretty well even on older symmetrixes. On the new Symms, the claim is that RAID-S is just as fast as RAID-1 on everything but the most strenuous workloads - YMMV. There's also RAID-P, which is the exact same critter, only with 8 disks instead of 4. This actually brings up a worthwhile note - on any large-scale array that has "intelligence" in the caching and data management, you have to be very careful as to how you lay your storage out. Poor choice in software stripe size, volume layout, etc. can completely destroy the performance of an array. This can often explain why some people love large-scale array X while others decry its performance. Workload and design, workload and design. Also, the "non-volatile" cache generally means "battery-backed", which while almost as good as true non-volatile RAM, is not the same thing. Batteries die, power supplies get overstressed, and generally terrible things can happen to your storage arrays, and loss-of-power to the cache = loss of data in write-back environments. Thanks, Matt -- Matthew Zito GridApp Systems Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 646-220-3551 Phone: 212-358-8211 x 359 http://www.gridapp.com > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Mladen Gogala > Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:24 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > Subject: Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo > > > Dennis, to tell the truth, writing in oracle is not a big > problem, as long as the redo files are not on RAID-5. > Everything else can reside on RAID-5 without a visible > performance impact. Second, RAID-5 vendors like EMC and > Hitachi usually offer two versions of non-volatile cache: > write-through one which essentially performs prefetch and a > genuine full cache which caches both read and write calls. > The latter type of cache, which is very expensive, is found > on Symmetrix boxes only and not on former DG-Clariion boxes > (talking EMC here). These types of RAID-5 implementation are > usually referred to as > RAID-6 or RAID-S. > How to benchmark those? Well, the trick in benchmarking those > systems is to do what one would never do with it's own > system: put redo logs on RAID-5(6,S?), launch several threads > of update intensive short transactions (OLTP mix) and count > "user commits" from v$sysstat. Prior to that, establish a > baseline with RAID 1+0 and see what is the difference. See > how many commits would RAID-5 box record during the same time > as RAID-1+0 box and you'll know the difference in speed. > Also, make sure to pull out one of the disks while system is > working and see what's the impact of resilvering. A
RE: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
When Larry met Carly? I don't know whether Carly is his type, but that would be some marriage! I can still remember the fiery relationship with Sandra Kurtzig, the former CEO of Ingres. Having in mind that HP is a "great printer company", according to Larry, I doubt that the relationship would work. Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Phone:(203) 459-6855 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 11:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L >- --- Original Message --- - >From: "Gogala, Mladen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 06:44:18 > >A movie with Julia Roberts or Meg Ryan is what I >had in mind. > >Mladen Gogala >Oracle DBA >Phone:(203) 459-6855 >Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > When Larry met Carly ? Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Gogala, Mladen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
If you really want to free your mind, think of this. What if all this is simply an illusion? We're stuck in the Matrix and if only we could free ourselves from the tyranny of the machines (i.e. the evil RAID salesfolk et al) we could liberate humanity and all our Oracle databases so that everyone and everything lives in peace and harmony? Which pill do you choose: red or blue? OK...so I saw Matrix Reloaded over the weekend Free your mind! BAARF forever! Karen > Well, the way memory is growing, we'll soon have in-memory databases which > will bring the > ultimate victory to Cary by rendering the phrase "hit ratio" meaningless. > How's that for futuristic > thinking? To go even further, there might even come the day when that > monster created by IBM, > the PC itself will become obsolete and everything will work of a small > device, call it "network computer" > which will run applications from your "application service provider". Am I a > genuine futurist thinker > or what? Don't tell Larry that I've stolen some of his ideas. > > > Mladen Gogala > Oracle DBA > Phone:(203) 459-6855 > Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -Original Message- > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 9:50 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > > Putting on my futuristic thinking hat, I see a day not too far off when > there won't be any Ds. RAID, as we know it, will go away. > > Jerry Whittle > ASIFICS DBA > NCI Information Systems Inc. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 618-622-4145 > > -Original Message- > > Daniel W. Fink wrote: > > > Mogens, > >As a futuristic thinker, I challenge you to go beyond todays > > technology and consider what the next millenium may bring. While it is > > all good and well to be against RAID-Free/Four/Five, we should also > > issue a policy statement against the newer, though not currently > > production ready, configurations listed below. > > > > RAID-Firteen/Fourteen/Fifteen, Free hundred through Five hundred > > ninety nine (inclusive), Free thousand through Five thousand nine > > hundred ninety nine (inclusive) and all RAIDS that are powers of > > Free/Four/Five. > > > > Dan > > -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Karen Morton INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
You forgot Traci Lords. > -Original Message- > > A movie with Julia Roberts or Meg Ryan is what I had in mind. > -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephen Lee INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Soon? Soon?! What's this "Soon" stuff? SQL> show sga Total System Global Area 2.3205E+10 bytes Fixed Size 735296 bytes Variable Size1728053248 bytes Database Buffers 2.1475E+10 bytes Redo Buffers1335296 bytes A real pig of an app, but good BCHR. -Original Message- > Well, the way memory is growing, we'll soon have > in-memory databases -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephen Lee INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
>- --- Original Message --- - >From: "Gogala, Mladen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 06:44:18 > >A movie with Julia Roberts or Meg Ryan is what I >had in mind. > >Mladen Gogala >Oracle DBA >Phone:(203) 459-6855 >Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > When Larry met Carly ? Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Title: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Well, the way memory is growing, we'll soon have in-memory databases which will bring the ultimate victory to Cary by rendering the phrase "hit ratio" meaningless. How's that for futuristic thinking? To go even further, there might even come the day when that monster created by IBM, the PC itself will become obsolete and everything will work of a small device, call it "network computer" which will run applications from your "application service provider". Am I a genuine futurist thinker or what? Don't tell Larry that I've stolen some of his ideas. Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Phone:(203) 459-6855 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message-From: Whittle Jerome Contr NCI [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 9:50 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Putting on my futuristic thinking hat, I see a day not too far off when there won't be any Ds. RAID, as we know it, will go away. Jerry Whittle ASIFICS DBA NCI Information Systems Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 618-622-4145 -Original Message- Daniel W. Fink wrote: > Mogens, > As a futuristic thinker, I challenge you to go beyond todays > technology and consider what the next millenium may bring. While it is > all good and well to be against RAID-Free/Four/Five, we should also > issue a policy statement against the newer, though not currently > production ready, configurations listed below. > > RAID-Firteen/Fourteen/Fifteen, Free hundred through Five hundred > ninety nine (inclusive), Free thousand through Five thousand nine > hundred ninety nine (inclusive) and all RAIDS that are powers of > Free/Four/Five. > > Dan
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Mladen - Thanks for the clarification. Gee, does this mean no book? Well, maybe the movie would be some compensation. Cary - Thanks always for your willingness to share your knowledge. Looking forward to your book. Dennis Williams DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dennis, to tell the truth, writing in oracle is not a big problem, as long as the redo files are not on RAID-5. Everything else can reside on RAID-5 without a visible performance impact. Second, RAID-5 vendors like EMC and Hitachi usually offer two versions of non-volatile cache: write-through one which essentially performs prefetch and a genuine full cache which caches both read and write calls. The latter type of cache, which is very expensive, is found on Symmetrix boxes only and not on former DG-Clariion boxes (talking EMC here). These types of RAID-5 implementation are usually referred to as RAID-6 or RAID-S. How to benchmark those? Well, the trick in benchmarking those systems is to do what one would never do with it's own system: put redo logs on RAID-5(6,S?), launch several threads of update intensive short transactions (OLTP mix) and count "user commits" from v$sysstat. Prior to that, establish a baseline with RAID 1+0 and see what is the difference. See how many commits would RAID-5 box record during the same time as RAID-1+0 box and you'll know the difference in speed. Also, make sure to pull out one of the disks while system is working and see what's the impact of resilvering. As for the entertainment value, I would hope that Julia Roberts and Mel Gibson would consider making a movie about the RAID-5 conspiracy. Julia would be a DBA trying to purchase a RAID box and Mel Gibson would be a honest RAID-5 salesman which would uncover a nasty EMC, IBM and Hitachi conspiracy. You can tell that it is a fiction because of the phrase "honest RAID salesman". The only problem would be to teach the two of them how not to sound "nucular". On 2003.06.15 14:14, DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote: > Mladen - I would propose another theory. Please consider this rant for > entertainment value, and hopefully to consider a book on this topic. >Usually companies request bids from several vendors. If you as a storage > salesperson always bid RAID1+0, you will always be underbid by your > competitors, receive no commissions, and in the end be fired. If you always > bid RAID5, you will probably receive some business, some commissions, and > keep your job. Now, pretend I'm a storage system salesperson. Which system > am I going to specify to the customer? > Now, if the customer insists on purchasing RAID1+0 or whatever, I'll > probably argue a little because I've been stung before where I was suckered > into bidding RAID1+0 and then my ignoramus competitor just blindly quoted > RAID5 and when it bubbled up to the V.P. he asked "why are you going with > the more expensive vendor"? And trying to quote a salesperson isn't a good > move at that point. >I thought Rachel had a good point on this topic awhile back. If you are a > top-notch consultant that is often called in to solve performance problems, > you have often cured them by switching from RAID5. So you have a lot of > confidence in it. But if you are the lowly on-site DBA just trying to hang > onto your job in the political turbulence, you usually don't have enough > facts to challenge the system administrators who trust their storage vendors > a lot more than a DBA that couldn't actually configure a storage system to > save his or her life. >So suppose I do try to challenge the system administrators. I say that > RAID1+0 will write faster than RAID5. The reply is "okay how much faster?" I > mumble that I've never seen any actual figures published anywhere. He or she > says maybe at the low level there is a slight advantage to RAID1+0, but with > a gig of battery-backed cache that won't be true. Or he or she asks "What > does Oracle recommend?". And on it goes. >Okay, I'm being provocative here. But how do I, a lowly DBA, prove which > is faster? Should I talk my system administrator into going to the trouble > of configuring a system both ways and run some tests? What type of tests > would be most useful? If I choose the wrong test, and RAID5 looks just as > good as RAID1+0, I'm sunk. Then for years to come when I try to make a point > at a meeting someone will say "yeah, is this another RAID1+0 theory?" > > Dennis Williams > DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA > Lifetouch, Inc. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > -Original Message- > Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:49 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > RAID-5 microkernel has more lines of code then Oracle7? Wow! This is an > astonishing piece of information and if it wasn't coming from you, I'd > dismiss it as yet another conspiracy theory. > > On 2003.06.15 01:44, Cary Millsap wrote: > > > Meanwhile I have
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
A movie with Julia Roberts or Meg Ryan is what I had in mind. Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Phone:(203) 459-6855 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 9:50 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Mladen - Thanks for the clarification. Gee, does this mean no book? Well, maybe the movie would be some compensation. Cary - Thanks always for your willingness to share your knowledge. Looking forward to your book. Dennis Williams DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dennis, to tell the truth, writing in oracle is not a big problem, as long as the redo files are not on RAID-5. Everything else can reside on RAID-5 without a visible performance impact. Second, RAID-5 vendors like EMC and Hitachi usually offer two versions of non-volatile cache: write-through one which essentially performs prefetch and a genuine full cache which caches both read and write calls. The latter type of cache, which is very expensive, is found on Symmetrix boxes only and not on former DG-Clariion boxes (talking EMC here). These types of RAID-5 implementation are usually referred to as RAID-6 or RAID-S. How to benchmark those? Well, the trick in benchmarking those systems is to do what one would never do with it's own system: put redo logs on RAID-5(6,S?), launch several threads of update intensive short transactions (OLTP mix) and count "user commits" from v$sysstat. Prior to that, establish a baseline with RAID 1+0 and see what is the difference. See how many commits would RAID-5 box record during the same time as RAID-1+0 box and you'll know the difference in speed. Also, make sure to pull out one of the disks while system is working and see what's the impact of resilvering. As for the entertainment value, I would hope that Julia Roberts and Mel Gibson would consider making a movie about the RAID-5 conspiracy. Julia would be a DBA trying to purchase a RAID box and Mel Gibson would be a honest RAID-5 salesman which would uncover a nasty EMC, IBM and Hitachi conspiracy. You can tell that it is a fiction because of the phrase "honest RAID salesman". The only problem would be to teach the two of them how not to sound "nucular". On 2003.06.15 14:14, DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote: > Mladen - I would propose another theory. Please consider this rant for > entertainment value, and hopefully to consider a book on this topic. >Usually companies request bids from several vendors. If you as a storage > salesperson always bid RAID1+0, you will always be underbid by your > competitors, receive no commissions, and in the end be fired. If you always > bid RAID5, you will probably receive some business, some commissions, and > keep your job. Now, pretend I'm a storage system salesperson. Which system > am I going to specify to the customer? > Now, if the customer insists on purchasing RAID1+0 or whatever, I'll > probably argue a little because I've been stung before where I was suckered > into bidding RAID1+0 and then my ignoramus competitor just blindly quoted > RAID5 and when it bubbled up to the V.P. he asked "why are you going with > the more expensive vendor"? And trying to quote a salesperson isn't a good > move at that point. >I thought Rachel had a good point on this topic awhile back. If you are a > top-notch consultant that is often called in to solve performance problems, > you have often cured them by switching from RAID5. So you have a lot of > confidence in it. But if you are the lowly on-site DBA just trying to hang > onto your job in the political turbulence, you usually don't have enough > facts to challenge the system administrators who trust their storage vendors > a lot more than a DBA that couldn't actually configure a storage system to > save his or her life. >So suppose I do try to challenge the system administrators. I say that > RAID1+0 will write faster than RAID5. The reply is "okay how much faster?" I > mumble that I've never seen any actual figures published anywhere. He or she > says maybe at the low level there is a slight advantage to RAID1+0, but with > a gig of battery-backed cache that won't be true. Or he or she asks "What > does Oracle recommend?". And on it goes. >Okay, I'm being provocative here. But how do I, a lowly DBA, prove which > is faster? Should I talk my system administrator into going to the trouble > of configuring a system both ways and run some tests? What type of tests > would be most useful? If I choose the wrong test, and RAID5 looks just as > good as RAID1+0, I'm sunk. Then for years to come when I try to make a point > at a meeting someone will say "yeah, is this another RAID1+0 theory?" > > Dennis Williams > DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA > Lifetouch, Inc. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > -Original Message- > Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:49 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > RAID-5 microkernel h
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Title: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Putting on my futuristic thinking hat, I see a day not too far off when there won't be any Ds. RAID, as we know it, will go away. Jerry Whittle ASIFICS DBA NCI Information Systems Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 618-622-4145 -Original Message- Daniel W. Fink wrote: > Mogens, > As a futuristic thinker, I challenge you to go beyond todays > technology and consider what the next millenium may bring. While it is > all good and well to be against RAID-Free/Four/Five, we should also > issue a policy statement against the newer, though not currently > production ready, configurations listed below. > > RAID-Firteen/Fourteen/Fifteen, Free hundred through Five hundred > ninety nine (inclusive), Free thousand through Five thousand nine > hundred ninety nine (inclusive) and all RAIDS that are powers of > Free/Four/Five. > > Dan
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
For complete disclosure, I didn't do the counting myself. The information came to me from an Oracle kernel developer during a discussion in his office at Redwood Shores. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Mladen Gogala Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L RAID-5 microkernel has more lines of code then Oracle7? Wow! This is an astonishing piece of information and if it wasn't coming from you, I'd dismiss it as yet another conspiracy theory. On 2003.06.15 01:44, Cary Millsap wrote: > > Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer > > selling RAID5 over RAID10. > > ...Because if they don't sell RAID5, they don't recover the R&D costs of > creating a RAID5 microkernel that has more lines of code than the Oracle7 > executable. I'm not kidding. > > > Cary Millsap > Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. > http://www.hotsos.com > > Upcoming events: > - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney > - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas > - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... > > > -Original Message- > Niall Litchfield > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 12:05 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > Jared writes > > At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. > > > > Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I > > wore it every day there. ;) > > I'm curious now. Pictures required. > > Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer > selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 > 5 > therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile > we have this strange situation where performance consultants are > publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants > with RAID10 than with RAID5. > > Niall > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: Niall Litchfield > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: Cary Millsap > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
It's the whole operating system that comes with a cached RAID5 system that enables it to do the parity calculations, operation under partial outage conditions, and take care of all the other hardware weirdnesses that RAID5 software has to handle. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Jared Still Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 12:55 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Which begs the question: "What is RAID-5 microkernel?" Jared On Sunday 15 June 2003 00:49, Mladen Gogala wrote: > RAID-5 microkernel has more lines of code then Oracle7? Wow! This is an > astonishing piece of information and if it wasn't coming from you, I'd > dismiss it as yet another conspiracy theory. > > On 2003.06.15 01:44, Cary Millsap wrote: > > > Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer > > > selling RAID5 over RAID10. > > > > ...Because if they don't sell RAID5, they don't recover the R&D costs of > > creating a RAID5 microkernel that has more lines of code than the Oracle7 > > executable. I'm not kidding. > > > > > > Cary Millsap > > Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. > > http://www.hotsos.com > > > > Upcoming events: > > - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney > > - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas > > - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... > > > > > > -Original Message- > > Niall Litchfield > > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 12:05 PM > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > > Jared writes > > > > > At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. > > > > > > Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I > > > wore it every day there. ;) > > > > I'm curious now. Pictures required. > > > > Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer > > selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 > 5 > > therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile > > we have this strange situation where performance consultants are > > publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants > > with RAID10 than with RAID5. > > > > Niall > > > > -- > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > > -- > > Author: Niall Litchfield > > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > > - > > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > > > > -- > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > > -- > > Author: Cary Millsap > > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > > - > > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for othe
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Here's the sequence of steps I've seen... 1. The salesman who bids RAID5 configuration wins the business, as per Dennis's story. He or she wins because the configuration requires fewer disks than the alternative RAID10 configuration. The salesman gets a nice commission and goes to his company's sales club. 2. Since the system was "sized" for storage capacity (byte counting) instead of I/O rate capacity (I/O-per-second counting), the system runs the risk of failing to keep up with I/O throughput requirements. Especially because RAID5 configurations perform more I/O operations than you think for every Oracle block written by DBWR. 3. If the system has a high enough I/O rate, the company that bought the RAID5 configuration finds out the hard way that the I/O subsystem is severely undersized. The total price of the corrected configuration is more than if the company had bought the RAID10 configuration to begin with. It's a hard deal. BAARF. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Mladen Gogala Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dennis, to tell the truth, writing in oracle is not a big problem, as long as the redo files are not on RAID-5. Everything else can reside on RAID-5 without a visible performance impact. Second, RAID-5 vendors like EMC and Hitachi usually offer two versions of non-volatile cache: write-through one which essentially performs prefetch and a genuine full cache which caches both read and write calls. The latter type of cache, which is very expensive, is found on Symmetrix boxes only and not on former DG-Clariion boxes (talking EMC here). These types of RAID-5 implementation are usually referred to as RAID-6 or RAID-S. How to benchmark those? Well, the trick in benchmarking those systems is to do what one would never do with it's own system: put redo logs on RAID-5(6,S?), launch several threads of update intensive short transactions (OLTP mix) and count "user commits" from v$sysstat. Prior to that, establish a baseline with RAID 1+0 and see what is the difference. See how many commits would RAID-5 box record during the same time as RAID-1+0 box and you'll know the difference in speed. Also, make sure to pull out one of the disks while system is working and see what's the impact of resilvering. As for the entertainment value, I would hope that Julia Roberts and Mel Gibson would consider making a movie about the RAID-5 conspiracy. Julia would be a DBA trying to purchase a RAID box and Mel Gibson would be a honest RAID-5 salesman which would uncover a nasty EMC, IBM and Hitachi conspiracy. You can tell that it is a fiction because of the phrase "honest RAID salesman". The only problem would be to teach the two of them how not to sound "nucular". On 2003.06.15 14:14, DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote: > Mladen - I would propose another theory. Please consider this rant for > entertainment value, and hopefully to consider a book on this topic. >Usually companies request bids from several vendors. If you as a storage > salesperson always bid RAID1+0, you will always be underbid by your > competitors, receive no commissions, and in the end be fired. If you always > bid RAID5, you will probably receive some business, some commissions, and > keep your job. Now, pretend I'm a storage system salesperson. Which system > am I going to specify to the customer? > Now, if the customer insists on purchasing RAID1+0 or whatever, I'll > probably argue a little because I've been stung before where I was suckered > into bidding RAID1+0 and then my ignoramus competitor just blindly quoted > RAID5 and when it bubbled up to the V.P. he asked "why are you going with > the more expensive vendor"? And trying to quote a salesperson isn't a good > move at that point. >I thought Rachel had a good point on this topic awhile back. If you are a > top-notch consultant that is often called in to solve performance problems, > you have often cured them by switching from RAID5. So you have a lot of > confidence in it. But if you are the lowly on-site DBA just trying to hang > onto your job in the political turbulence, you usually don't have enough > facts to challenge the system administrators who trust their storage vendors > a lot more than a DBA that couldn't actually configure a storage system to > save his or her life. >So suppose I do try to challenge the system administrators. I say that > RAID1+0 will write faster than RAID5. The reply is "okay how much faster?" I > mumble that I've never seen any actual figures published anywhere. He or she &g
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Dennis, to tell the truth, writing in oracle is not a big problem, as long as the redo files are not on RAID-5. Everything else can reside on RAID-5 without a visible performance impact. Second, RAID-5 vendors like EMC and Hitachi usually offer two versions of non-volatile cache: write-through one which essentially performs prefetch and a genuine full cache which caches both read and write calls. The latter type of cache, which is very expensive, is found on Symmetrix boxes only and not on former DG-Clariion boxes (talking EMC here). These types of RAID-5 implementation are usually referred to as RAID-6 or RAID-S. How to benchmark those? Well, the trick in benchmarking those systems is to do what one would never do with it's own system: put redo logs on RAID-5(6,S?), launch several threads of update intensive short transactions (OLTP mix) and count "user commits" from v$sysstat. Prior to that, establish a baseline with RAID 1+0 and see what is the difference. See how many commits would RAID-5 box record during the same time as RAID-1+0 box and you'll know the difference in speed. Also, make sure to pull out one of the disks while system is working and see what's the impact of resilvering. As for the entertainment value, I would hope that Julia Roberts and Mel Gibson would consider making a movie about the RAID-5 conspiracy. Julia would be a DBA trying to purchase a RAID box and Mel Gibson would be a honest RAID-5 salesman which would uncover a nasty EMC, IBM and Hitachi conspiracy. You can tell that it is a fiction because of the phrase "honest RAID salesman". The only problem would be to teach the two of them how not to sound "nucular". On 2003.06.15 14:14, DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote: Mladen - I would propose another theory. Please consider this rant for entertainment value, and hopefully to consider a book on this topic. Usually companies request bids from several vendors. If you as a storage salesperson always bid RAID1+0, you will always be underbid by your competitors, receive no commissions, and in the end be fired. If you always bid RAID5, you will probably receive some business, some commissions, and keep your job. Now, pretend I'm a storage system salesperson. Which system am I going to specify to the customer? Now, if the customer insists on purchasing RAID1+0 or whatever, I'll probably argue a little because I've been stung before where I was suckered into bidding RAID1+0 and then my ignoramus competitor just blindly quoted RAID5 and when it bubbled up to the V.P. he asked "why are you going with the more expensive vendor"? And trying to quote a salesperson isn't a good move at that point. I thought Rachel had a good point on this topic awhile back. If you are a top-notch consultant that is often called in to solve performance problems, you have often cured them by switching from RAID5. So you have a lot of confidence in it. But if you are the lowly on-site DBA just trying to hang onto your job in the political turbulence, you usually don't have enough facts to challenge the system administrators who trust their storage vendors a lot more than a DBA that couldn't actually configure a storage system to save his or her life. So suppose I do try to challenge the system administrators. I say that RAID1+0 will write faster than RAID5. The reply is "okay how much faster?" I mumble that I've never seen any actual figures published anywhere. He or she says maybe at the low level there is a slight advantage to RAID1+0, but with a gig of battery-backed cache that won't be true. Or he or she asks "What does Oracle recommend?". And on it goes. Okay, I'm being provocative here. But how do I, a lowly DBA, prove which is faster? Should I talk my system administrator into going to the trouble of configuring a system both ways and run some tests? What type of tests would be most useful? If I choose the wrong test, and RAID5 looks just as good as RAID1+0, I'm sunk. Then for years to come when I try to make a point at a meeting someone will say "yeah, is this another RAID1+0 theory?" Dennis Williams DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L RAID-5 microkernel has more lines of code then Oracle7? Wow! This is an astonishing piece of information and if it wasn't coming from you, I'd dismiss it as yet another conspiracy theory. On 2003.06.15 01:44, Cary Millsap wrote: > > Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer > > selling RAID5 over RAID10. > > ...Because if they don't sell RAID5, they don't recover the R&D costs of > creating a RAID5 microkernel that has more lines of code than the Oracle7 > executable. I'm not kidding. > > > Cary Millsap > Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. > http://www.hotsos.com > > Upcoming events: > - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney > - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas > - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details...
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Mladen - I would propose another theory. Please consider this rant for entertainment value, and hopefully to consider a book on this topic. Usually companies request bids from several vendors. If you as a storage salesperson always bid RAID1+0, you will always be underbid by your competitors, receive no commissions, and in the end be fired. If you always bid RAID5, you will probably receive some business, some commissions, and keep your job. Now, pretend I'm a storage system salesperson. Which system am I going to specify to the customer? Now, if the customer insists on purchasing RAID1+0 or whatever, I'll probably argue a little because I've been stung before where I was suckered into bidding RAID1+0 and then my ignoramus competitor just blindly quoted RAID5 and when it bubbled up to the V.P. he asked "why are you going with the more expensive vendor"? And trying to quote a salesperson isn't a good move at that point. I thought Rachel had a good point on this topic awhile back. If you are a top-notch consultant that is often called in to solve performance problems, you have often cured them by switching from RAID5. So you have a lot of confidence in it. But if you are the lowly on-site DBA just trying to hang onto your job in the political turbulence, you usually don't have enough facts to challenge the system administrators who trust their storage vendors a lot more than a DBA that couldn't actually configure a storage system to save his or her life. So suppose I do try to challenge the system administrators. I say that RAID1+0 will write faster than RAID5. The reply is "okay how much faster?" I mumble that I've never seen any actual figures published anywhere. He or she says maybe at the low level there is a slight advantage to RAID1+0, but with a gig of battery-backed cache that won't be true. Or he or she asks "What does Oracle recommend?". And on it goes. Okay, I'm being provocative here. But how do I, a lowly DBA, prove which is faster? Should I talk my system administrator into going to the trouble of configuring a system both ways and run some tests? What type of tests would be most useful? If I choose the wrong test, and RAID5 looks just as good as RAID1+0, I'm sunk. Then for years to come when I try to make a point at a meeting someone will say "yeah, is this another RAID1+0 theory?" Dennis Williams DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L RAID-5 microkernel has more lines of code then Oracle7? Wow! This is an astonishing piece of information and if it wasn't coming from you, I'd dismiss it as yet another conspiracy theory. On 2003.06.15 01:44, Cary Millsap wrote: > > Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer > > selling RAID5 over RAID10. > > ...Because if they don't sell RAID5, they don't recover the R&D costs of > creating a RAID5 microkernel that has more lines of code than the Oracle7 > executable. I'm not kidding. > > > Cary Millsap > Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. > http://www.hotsos.com > > Upcoming events: > - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney > - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas > - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... > > > -Original Message- > Niall Litchfield > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 12:05 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > Jared writes > > At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. > > > > Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I > > wore it every day there. ;) > > I'm curious now. Pictures required. > > Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer > selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 > 5 > therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile > we have this strange situation where performance consultants are > publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants > with RAID10 than with RAID5. > > Niall > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: Niall Litchfield > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: Cary Millsap > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting service
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Which begs the question: "What is RAID-5 microkernel?" Jared On Sunday 15 June 2003 00:49, Mladen Gogala wrote: > RAID-5 microkernel has more lines of code then Oracle7? Wow! This is an > astonishing piece of information and if it wasn't coming from you, I'd > dismiss it as yet another conspiracy theory. > > On 2003.06.15 01:44, Cary Millsap wrote: > > > Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer > > > selling RAID5 over RAID10. > > > > ...Because if they don't sell RAID5, they don't recover the R&D costs of > > creating a RAID5 microkernel that has more lines of code than the Oracle7 > > executable. I'm not kidding. > > > > > > Cary Millsap > > Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. > > http://www.hotsos.com > > > > Upcoming events: > > - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney > > - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas > > - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... > > > > > > -Original Message- > > Niall Litchfield > > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 12:05 PM > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > > Jared writes > > > > > At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. > > > > > > Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I > > > wore it every day there. ;) > > > > I'm curious now. Pictures required. > > > > Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer > > selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 > 5 > > therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile > > we have this strange situation where performance consultants are > > publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants > > with RAID10 than with RAID5. > > > > Niall > > > > -- > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > > -- > > Author: Niall Litchfield > > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > > - > > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > > > > -- > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > > -- > > Author: Cary Millsap > > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > > - > > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
RAID-5 microkernel has more lines of code then Oracle7? Wow! This is an astonishing piece of information and if it wasn't coming from you, I'd dismiss it as yet another conspiracy theory. On 2003.06.15 01:44, Cary Millsap wrote: > Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer > selling RAID5 over RAID10. ...Because if they don't sell RAID5, they don't recover the R&D costs of creating a RAID5 microkernel that has more lines of code than the Oracle7 executable. I'm not kidding. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Niall Litchfield Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 12:05 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Jared writes > At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. > > Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I > wore it every day there. ;) I'm curious now. Pictures required. Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 > 5 therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile we have this strange situation where performance consultants are publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants with RAID10 than with RAID5. Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Want to BAARF - Recommendations for 10 36G Drive config
Hi Ron, It's done. You're Party member # 42 - with a special obligation to know the Answer to RAID-5, of course. Three members have socalled red numbers that will remain guaranteed constant for as long as we can keep them constant. They are: Carel-Jan Engels (#11) Leif Knudsen (#13) and now Ron (#42). By the way, Peter Gram has now registered BAARF.com and it should be available in a couple of days. In the beginning it will just point to the MiracleAS.dk page for BAARF stuff, but who knows what can happen? Mogens Ron Thomas wrote: Mogens- Can you register me with id 42? It is my age (in a few weeks) and of course the meaning of life, the universe, and everything. Thanks, Ron Thomas Hypercom, Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] Each new user of a new system uncovers a new class of bugs. -- Kernighan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]cc: .com Subject: Re: Want to BAARF - Recommendations for 10 36G Drive config 06/14/2003 12:59 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L David - I just registered you as Party member # 30. You obviously have the right attitudes :-). Mogens Dave Phillips wrote: A client runs our app with the following layout. Since their intial 6 drive config they have procured more drives for a total of 10 36Gig Drives. They have also upgraded memory from 1 to 4 gig. I have the opportunity to recommend changes to the current structure to improve performance. So, any recommendations from the BAARF committee are welcome. Current System Ora 8.1.7 Win 2k Size 30Gig Logical Array 1 - Raid 1 - OS and Oracle Logical Array 2 - Raid 1 - App and Index TS Logical Array 3 - Raid 5 - The rest (Data,Rbs,redo,etc) David Phillips Support DBA BAARF member wanna-be -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
> Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer > selling RAID5 over RAID10. ...Because if they don't sell RAID5, they don't recover the R&D costs of creating a RAID5 microkernel that has more lines of code than the Oracle7 executable. I'm not kidding. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Niall Litchfield Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 12:05 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Jared writes > At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. > > Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I > wore it every day there. ;) I'm curious now. Pictures required. Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 > 5 therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile we have this strange situation where performance consultants are publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants with RAID10 than with RAID5. Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Want to BAARF - Recommendations for 10 36G Drive config
Mogens- Can you register me with id 42? It is my age (in a few weeks) and of course the meaning of life, the universe, and everything. Thanks, Ron Thomas Hypercom, Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] Each new user of a new system uncovers a new class of bugs. -- Kernighan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]cc: .com Subject: Re: Want to BAARF - Recommendations for 10 36G Drive config 06/14/2003 12:59 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L David - I just registered you as Party member # 30. You obviously have the right attitudes :-). Mogens Dave Phillips wrote: >A client runs our app with the following layout. Since their intial 6 >drive config they have procured more drives for a total of 10 36Gig >Drives. They have also upgraded memory from 1 to 4 gig. I have the >opportunity to recommend changes to the current structure to improve >performance. >So, any recommendations from the BAARF committee are welcome. > >Current System > >Ora 8.1.7 >Win 2k >Size 30Gig >Logical Array 1 - Raid 1 - OS and Oracle >Logical Array 2 - Raid 1 - App and Index TS >Logical Array 3 - Raid 5 - The rest (Data,Rbs,redo,etc) > > > > >David Phillips >Support DBA >BAARF member wanna-be > > -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Ron Thomas INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Want to BAARF - Recommendations for 10 36G Drive config
David - I just registered you as Party member # 30. You obviously have the right attitudes :-). Mogens Dave Phillips wrote: A client runs our app with the following layout. Since their intial 6 drive config they have procured more drives for a total of 10 36Gig Drives. They have also upgraded memory from 1 to 4 gig. I have the opportunity to recommend changes to the current structure to improve performance. So, any recommendations from the BAARF committee are welcome. Current System Ora 8.1.7 Win 2k Size 30Gig Logical Array 1 - Raid 1 - OS and Oracle Logical Array 2 - Raid 1 - App and Index TS Logical Array 3 - Raid 5 - The rest (Data,Rbs,redo,etc) David Phillips Support DBA BAARF member wanna-be -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Dan, Excellent idea. We will of course put your comment into the official BAARF paper version 2 (which I think I can have ready in about 42 seconds from now) as an important (and so far the only) footnote. What I like about your idea is that it got me wondering if the future has already started? I mean, I have seen RAID-40 sold (albeit under the name RAID-50), and I have seen RAID-50 sold (albeit under names like "Disaster Recovery Site"), and such. It must be a challenge to sell a huge RAID-4 SAN... and then mirror it. Respect! It might also be possible to create a new BAARF logo (the old one is kind of outdated and people are getting tired of looking at it now after several days of availability on the open market) where it ends with a sentence like ".And all the powers that be.." I have actually just added your comment in the BAARF vers 2.doc and .htm documents. Should be available on the Internet RSN. Thanks for your idea. Best regards, Mogens Daniel W. Fink wrote: Mogens, As a futuristic thinker, I challenge you to go beyond todays technology and consider what the next millenium may bring. While it is all good and well to be against RAID-Free/Four/Five, we should also issue a policy statement against the newer, though not currently production ready, configurations listed below. RAID-Firteen/Fourteen/Fifteen, Free hundred through Five hundred ninety nine (inclusive), Free thousand through Five thousand nine hundred ninety nine (inclusive) and all RAIDS that are powers of Free/Four/Five. Dan -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Want to BAARF - Recommendations for 10 36G Drive config
>At which point you will no doubt discover that your IO capacity was fine >and it was the damn data that was the issue. That can be simply resolved by certain truncate commands. :) > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Dave Phillips > Sent: 13 June 2003 16:26 > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > Subject: Want to BAARF - Recommendations for 10 36G Drive config > > > A client runs our app with the following layout. Since their > intial 6 drive config they have procured more drives for a > total of 10 36Gig Drives. They have also upgraded memory from > 1 to 4 gig. I have the opportunity to recommend changes to > the current structure to improve performance. > So, any recommendations from the BAARF committee are welcome. > > Current System > > Ora 8.1.7 > Win 2k > Size 30Gig > Logical Array 1 - Raid 1 - OS and Oracle > Logical Array 2 - Raid 1 - App and Index TS > Logical Array 3 - Raid 5 - The rest (Data,Rbs,redo,etc) > > > > > David Phillips > Support DBA > BAARF member wanna-be > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: Dave Phillips > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') > and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB > ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed > from). You may also send the HELP command for other > information (like subscribing). > -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Richard Ji INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Want to BAARF - Recommendations for 10 36G Drive config
I figure you have disks set out so Drive 1 + Drive 2 = OS Drive 2 + Drive 3 = Two tablespaces Drive 4 + 5 + 6 = Oracle Default Tablespaces. And you have bought 4 more disks. I "theorize", like test this to infinity and beyond, that changing this to the following will improve IO performance. Drive 1 + Drive 2 = OS Drive 3 + Drive 4 = swap + archive logs Drive 5 + Drive 6 (mirroring) Drive 7 + Drive 8 = oracle data files. Drive 9 + Drive 10 = redo logs. I.E. stick your data on raid 10,stick redo and archive on two separate mirror sets and separate swap from os. At which point you will no doubt discover that your IO capacity was fine and it was the damn data that was the issue. Niall > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Dave Phillips > Sent: 13 June 2003 16:26 > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > Subject: Want to BAARF - Recommendations for 10 36G Drive config > > > A client runs our app with the following layout. Since their > intial 6 drive config they have procured more drives for a > total of 10 36Gig Drives. They have also upgraded memory from > 1 to 4 gig. I have the opportunity to recommend changes to > the current structure to improve performance. > So, any recommendations from the BAARF committee are welcome. > > Current System > > Ora 8.1.7 > Win 2k > Size 30Gig > Logical Array 1 - Raid 1 - OS and Oracle > Logical Array 2 - Raid 1 - App and Index TS > Logical Array 3 - Raid 5 - The rest (Data,Rbs,redo,etc) > > > > > David Phillips > Support DBA > BAARF member wanna-be > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: Dave Phillips > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') > and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB > ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed > from). You may also send the HELP command for other > information (like subscribing). > -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Want to BAARF - Recommendations for 10 36G Drive config
Put SQL Server files on RAID5, Oracle files on the good stuff. Then stand around and say "Well gosh, I guess that SQL Server is just crappy and slow." > -Original Message- > So, any recommendations from the BAARF committee are welcome. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephen Lee INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Want to BAARF - Recommendations for 10 36G Drive config
With the limited number of drives, that you have, I'd at least: - move RBS from Raid5 onto first Raid1 (with OA and Oracle); - move redo from Raid5 onto second Raid1; - move Index TS back onto Raid5 Igor Neyman, OCP DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Dave Phillips Sent: 13. júna 2003 10:26 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L A client runs our app with the following layout. Since their intial 6 drive config they have procured more drives for a total of 10 36Gig Drives. They have also upgraded memory from 1 to 4 gig. I have the opportunity to recommend changes to the current structure to improve performance. So, any recommendations from the BAARF committee are welcome. Current System Ora 8.1.7 Win 2k Size 30Gig Logical Array 1 - Raid 1 - OS and Oracle Logical Array 2 - Raid 1 - App and Index TS Logical Array 3 - Raid 5 - The rest (Data,Rbs,redo,etc) David Phillips Support DBA BAARF member wanna-be -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Dave Phillips INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Igor Neyman INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Want to BAARF - Recommendations for 10 36G Drive config
A client runs our app with the following layout. Since their intial 6 drive config they have procured more drives for a total of 10 36Gig Drives. They have also upgraded memory from 1 to 4 gig. I have the opportunity to recommend changes to the current structure to improve performance. So, any recommendations from the BAARF committee are welcome. Current System Ora 8.1.7 Win 2k Size 30Gig Logical Array 1 - Raid 1 - OS and Oracle Logical Array 2 - Raid 1 - App and Index TS Logical Array 3 - Raid 5 - The rest (Data,Rbs,redo,etc) David Phillips Support DBA BAARF member wanna-be -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Dave Phillips INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Title: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Nice going there Dan, After reading this 'Free/Four/Five ...' stuff only thing that comes to my mind is ... 'What the F..ive'? or maybe someone can be insulted by calling them 'you-raid-five-loving-zealot' ... TGIF Raj Rajendra dot Jamadagni at nospamespn dot com All Views expressed in this email are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art ! -Original Message- From: Daniel W. Fink [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 9:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Mogens, As a futuristic thinker, I challenge you to go beyond todays technology and consider what the next millenium may bring. While it is all good and well to be against RAID-Free/Four/Five, we should also issue a policy statement against the newer, though not currently production ready, configurations listed below. RAID-Firteen/Fourteen/Fifteen, Free hundred through Five hundred ninety nine (inclusive), Free thousand through Five thousand nine hundred ninety nine (inclusive) and all RAIDS that are powers of Free/Four/Five. Dan *This e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify corporate MIS at (860) 766-2000 and delete this e-mail message from your computer, Thank you.*1
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Mogens, As a futuristic thinker, I challenge you to go beyond todays technology and consider what the next millenium may bring. While it is all good and well to be against RAID-Free/Four/Five, we should also issue a policy statement against the newer, though not currently production ready, configurations listed below. RAID-Firteen/Fourteen/Fifteen, Free hundred through Five hundred ninety nine (inclusive), Free thousand through Five thousand nine hundred ninety nine (inclusive) and all RAIDS that are powers of Free/Four/Five. Dan -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Daniel W. Fink INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
You have just become member # 26 in the BAARF Party. You have been raised to Bold Member status. You seem to both deserver it and need it :-))) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Our storage team won't even respond to me anymore when I ask for the manufacturer's rating for non-cached I/Os per second & number of controllers, RAID level, striping, etc... All I get is 'why do you want to know that' and 'what application is this for'... BARRF will stop the debilitating headaches since I will just refuse to talk about it anymore. Happy Day!! Mogens Nørgaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> T To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent by: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]cc: bcc: Subject: World 06/10/03 06:19 PMpremier performance of the BAARF party logo Please respond to ORACLE-L Friends, James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-). Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. Best regards, Mogens -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Dear Paul, Welcome to the Party! You have just become member (and a Bold Member as it were) no 24 (that's 42 backwards). Thanks. EiE (Enough is Enough). Mogens Paul Baumgartel wrote: Dear Mogens, When I arrived at my new job, I found RAID 5 everywhere, and a sys admin who wanted to build my new database servers that way...I smote the old systems and set the new ones on the right path. I would be proud to be associated with your movement. --- Mogens_Nørgaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Friends, James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-). Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. Best regards, Mogens -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Hey its always nice to put faces to the names. Now I know how 1 List member looks like. :-) Regards Naveen > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 12:20 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > Subject: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo > > > Here are pics if interested. > > http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_1.jpg > http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_2.jpg > > I too do not understand why vendors push RAID 5 when > RAID 10 is clearly more profitable. I speculate that they > may be afraid of being accused of overselling when > PHB's discover the RAID 10's they just purchased could > have been RAID 5's for less money. > > > Jared > > > > > > "Niall Litchfield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 06/12/2003 10:04 AM > Please respond to ORACLE-L > > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > cc: > Subject:RE: World premier performance of the > BAARF party logo > > > Jared writes > > At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. > > > > Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I > > wore it every day there. ;) > > I'm curious now. Pictures required. > > Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer > selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 > 5 > therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile > we have this strange situation where performance consultants are > publicising the fact that you have less need for performance > consultants > with RAID10 than with RAID5. > > Niall > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: Niall Litchfield > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > > > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > DISCLAIMER: This message (including attachment if any) is confidential and may be privileged. Before opening attachments please check them for viruses and defects. MindTree Consulting Private Limited (MindTree) will not be responsible for any viruses or defects or any forwarded attachments emanating either from within MindTree or outside. If you have received this message by mistake please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this message from your system. Any unauthorized use or dissemination of this message in whole or in part is strictly prohibited. Please note that e-mails are susceptible to change and MindTree shall not be liable for any improper, untimely or incomplete transmission. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Naveen Nahata INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
And the satanic "redeye" is a nice effect for a dba. Could this be the
start of oracle pr0n?
-Original Message-
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Sent: 6/12/03 6:19 PM
Hey,
Who cares about that RAID thing. Whose the cutie in the pictures -
hehe.
-Original Message-
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ]
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 2:50 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Here are pics if interested.
http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_1.jpg
<http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_1.jpg>
http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_2.jpg
<http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_2.jpg>
I too do not understand why vendors push RAID 5 when
RAID 10 is clearly more profitable. I speculate that they
may be afraid of being accused of overselling when
PHB's discover the RAID 10's they just purchased could
have been RAID 5's for less money.
Jared
"Niall Litchfield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
06/12/2003 10:04 AM
Please respond to ORACLE-L
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc:
Subject:RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party
logo
Jared writes
> At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat.
>
> Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I
> wore it every day there. ;)
I'm curious now. Pictures required.
Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer
selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 > 5
therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile
we have this strange situation where performance consultants are
publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants
with RAID10 than with RAID5.
Niall
--
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Author: Niall Litchfield
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RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Title: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Hey, Who cares about that RAID thing. Whose the cutie in the pictures - hehe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 2:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Here are pics if interested. http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_1.jpg http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_2.jpg I too do not understand why vendors push RAID 5 when RAID 10 is clearly more profitable. I speculate that they may be afraid of being accused of overselling when PHB's discover the RAID 10's they just purchased could have been RAID 5's for less money. Jared "Niall Litchfield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/12/2003 10:04 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Jared writes > At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. > > Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I > wore it every day there. ;) I'm curious now. Pictures required. Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 > 5 therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile we have this strange situation where performance consultants are publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants with RAID10 than with RAID5. Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Jared wrote > Here are pics if interested. > > http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_1.jpg > http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_2.jpg Now that's a good hat. > I too do not understand why vendors push RAID 5 when > RAID 10 is clearly more profitable. I speculate that they > may be afraid of being accused of overselling when > PHB's discover the RAID 10's they just purchased could > have been RAID 5's for less money. I think Steve has the correct response to us here, why sell 20 extra disks, when you can sell 6 controllers, 2gb cache, auto-balancing blah-di-blah software, 1000 biblio-bit fibre, installation consultancy and a partridge in a pear tree (oops maybe not the last one). Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
My celebration was short lived when my manager declared that while were going to spend 70K on Hardware, we would not be spending 77K to get the disk configuration I proposed. Does anybody know where that term "damagement" came from :) "Steve McClure" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> t.com> cc: Sent by: Subject: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo [EMAIL PROTECTED] .com 06/12/2003 04:41 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Boy I lost this battle here. The thing was the salesmonger insisted that with all the caching and multipathing the Hitachi 9200 offered that we needent worry about putting our production, development, admininstrative, and designer databases all on a single (5 disk)RAID 5 array. We then had a conference call with myself, our top IT folks, the sales monger and a Hitachi engineer. I was very prepared going in, but figured the engineer would still be able to out "tech" me. 10 minutes later I was surprised to hear that the engineer agreed with me, that we would get much better performance Striping and Mirroring. My celebration was short lived when my manager declared that while were going to spend 70K on Hardware, we would not be spending 77K to get the disk configuration I proposed. He was essentially selling the sales mongers point of view rather than mine and the Hitachi engineer. He claimed we would never make I/O the bottleneck on this system. It didn't take me long to discover some processes were indeed bottle necking on disk I/O. Go figure all the I/O for the whole system on a single physical device(array). That said I JUST recently discovered that our multipathing software(vendor installed-- not Hitachi) wasn't installed properly, so we really are only using one pathway for all our I/O. Once we get that installed I am actually afraid I will be pleasantly surprised at how well it works. I will just have to be content knowingas good as it isit could be better yet. Steve McClure -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Michael Boligan INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Title: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Boy I lost this battle here. The thing was the salesmonger insisted that with all the caching and multipathing the Hitachi 9200 offered that we needent worry about putting our production, development, admininstrative, and designer databases all on a single (5 disk)RAID 5 array. We then had a conference call with myself, our top IT folks, the sales monger and a Hitachi engineer. I was very prepared going in, but figured the engineer would still be able to out "tech" me. 10 minutes later I was surprised to hear that the engineer agreed with me, that we would get much better performance Striping and Mirroring. My celebration was short lived when my manager declared that while were going to spend 70K on Hardware, we would not be spending 77K to get the disk configuration I proposed. He was essentially selling the sales mongers point of view rather than mine and the Hitachi engineer. He claimed we would never make I/O the bottleneck on this system. It didn't take me long to discover some processes were indeed bottle necking on disk I/O. Go figure all the I/O for the whole system on a single physical device(array). That said I JUST recently discovered that our multipathing software(vendor installed-- not Hitachi) wasn't installed properly, so we really are only using one pathway for all our I/O. Once we get that installed I am actually afraid I will be pleasantly surprised at how well it works. I will just have to be content knowingas good as it isit could be better yet. Steve McClure
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Title: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo So, this is how Jared looks ... cool ... someone likes hot wheels ... update permanent_memory set person_face= where person='Jared' / commit / Raj Rajendra dot Jamadagni at nospamespn dot com All Views expressed in this email are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art ! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 2:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Here are pics if interested. http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_1.jpg http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_2.jpg I too do not understand why vendors push RAID 5 when RAID 10 is clearly more profitable. I speculate that they may be afraid of being accused of overselling when PHB's discover the RAID 10's they just purchased could have been RAID 5's for less money. This e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify corporate MIS at (860) 766-2000 and delete this e-mail message from your computer, Thank you.*2
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Here are pics if interested. http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_1.jpg http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_2.jpg I too do not understand why vendors push RAID 5 when RAID 10 is clearly more profitable. I speculate that they may be afraid of being accused of overselling when PHB's discover the RAID 10's they just purchased could have been RAID 5's for less money. Jared "Niall Litchfield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/12/2003 10:04 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject:RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Jared writes > At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. > > Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I > wore it every day there. ;) I'm curious now. Pictures required. Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 > 5 therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile we have this strange situation where performance consultants are publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants with RAID10 than with RAID5. Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Jared writes > At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. > > Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I > wore it every day there. ;) I'm curious now. Pictures required. Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 > 5 therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile we have this strange situation where performance consultants are publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants with RAID10 than with RAID5. Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Dear Mogens, When I arrived at my new job, I found RAID 5 everywhere, and a sys admin who wanted to build my new database servers that way...I smote the old systems and set the new ones on the right path. I would be proud to be associated with your movement. --- Mogens_Nørgaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Friends, > > James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. > > For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo > www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast > :-). > > Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll > assign > you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold > Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F > for > a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. > > Best regards, > > Mogens > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net > -- > Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services > - > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Paul Baumgartel INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
I guess I should count myself very fortunate. The folks here ask me about storage requirements, and listen. I get invited to meetings with our storage vendor and get to tell them what I want. At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I wore it every day there. ;) Jared On Wednesday 11 June 2003 14:50, Goulet, Dick wrote: > I quit talking about RAID over a year ago. I just put the data on the > disks the Unix folks present to the server. If there are performance > problems that we can identify to the storage system then we pass them along > for an explanation. > > Dick Goulet > Senior Oracle DBA > Oracle Certified 8i DBA > > -Original Message- > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 5:25 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > Our storage team won't even respond to me anymore when I ask for the > manufacturer's rating for non-cached I/Os per second & number of > controllers, RAID level, striping, etc... All I get is 'why do you want to > know that' and 'what application is this for'... BARRF will stop the > debilitating headaches since I will just refuse to talk about it anymore. > Happy Day!! > > > > Mogens Nørgaard > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> T >To: Multiple > recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent by: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]cc: > >bcc: > Subject: > World 06/10/03 06:19 PMpremier performance > of the BAARF party logo Please respond to > ORACLE-L > > > > > > > > Friends, > > James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. > > For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo > www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-). > > Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign > you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold > Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for > a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. > > Best regards, > > Mogens -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Call me a boy scout... I still try to overplan and get rid of kinks in
advance (when I get more than one 32 or 64 GB LUN, that is) as the storage
folks really get tired of:
Oh, my I/O problem COULDN'T be caused by how you guys placed stuff on the
frame!! You said it didn't matter where I put things... The cache takes
care of all of that for me, right? You told me that it does, so it must.
I'll just go recalibrate my scripts that detect I/O bottlenecks, they MUST
be out of whack... COULDN'T be that you only gave me one controller to 500
GB and one to the mirror... My oltp database is sharing the same disks
with the data warehouse on another server, you say? But doesn't that cache
take...
"Goulet, Dick"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> T
To: Multiple recipients of list
ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: cc:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
bcc:
Subject:
RE: World premier
performance of the BAARF party logo
06/11/03 05:50 PM
Please respond to
ORACLE-L
I quit talking about RAID over a year ago. I just put the data on the
disks the Unix folks present to the server. If there are performance
problems that we can identify to the storage system then we pass them along
for an explanation.
Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA
-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 5:25 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Our storage team won't even respond to me anymore when I ask for the
manufacturer's rating for non-cached I/Os per second & number of
controllers, RAID level, striping, etc... All I get is 'why do you want to
know that' and 'what application is this for'... BARRF will stop the
debilitating headaches since I will just refuse to talk about it anymore.
Happy Day!!
Mogens Nørgaard
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> T
To: Multiple
recipients of list ORACLE-L
Sent by: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]cc:
bcc:
Subject:
World
06/10/03 06:19 PMpremier performance of
the BAARF party logo
Please respond to
ORACLE-L
Friends,
James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better.
For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo
www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-).
Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign
you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold
Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for
a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time.
Best regards,
Mogens
--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
--
Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?=
INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
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(or the n
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
I quit talking about RAID over a year ago. I just put the data on the disks the Unix folks present to the server. If there are performance problems that we can identify to the storage system then we pass them along for an explanation. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 5:25 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Our storage team won't even respond to me anymore when I ask for the manufacturer's rating for non-cached I/Os per second & number of controllers, RAID level, striping, etc... All I get is 'why do you want to know that' and 'what application is this for'... BARRF will stop the debilitating headaches since I will just refuse to talk about it anymore. Happy Day!! Mogens Nørgaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> T To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent by: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]cc: bcc: Subject: World 06/10/03 06:19 PMpremier performance of the BAARF party logo Please respond to ORACLE-L Friends, James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-). Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. Best regards, Mogens -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Goulet, Dick INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Our storage team won't even respond to me anymore when I ask for the manufacturer's rating for non-cached I/Os per second & number of controllers, RAID level, striping, etc... All I get is 'why do you want to know that' and 'what application is this for'... BARRF will stop the debilitating headaches since I will just refuse to talk about it anymore. Happy Day!! Mogens Nørgaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> T To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent by: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]cc: bcc: Subject: World 06/10/03 06:19 PMpremier performance of the BAARF party logo Please respond to ORACLE-L Friends, James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-). Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. Best regards, Mogens -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Dear Barbare, You have just been made a Bold Member of the Party. Your Party number is 20. Mogens Barbara Baker wrote: Do NOT believe the liars and infidels. We have no BAARF in our computer room, nor will we allow an invasion of BAARF. "The BAARF party will have its own equivalent of the Iraqi Information Minister to deliver key notes at their conventions" --bb --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI: The BAARF gif is now the background on my desktop at work. Goes well with the hat. ;) Jared Mogens Nørgaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/10/2003 03:19 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject:World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Friends, James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-). Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. Best regards, Mogens -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Do NOT believe the liars and infidels. We have no BAARF in our computer room, nor will we allow an invasion of BAARF. "The BAARF party will have its own equivalent of the Iraqi Information Minister to deliver key notes at their conventions" --bb --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > FYI: The BAARF gif is now the background on my > desktop at work. > > Goes well with the hat. ;) > > Jared > > > > > > Mogens Nørgaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 06/10/2003 03:19 PM > Please respond to ORACLE-L > > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > cc: > Subject:World premier performance of > the BAARF party logo > > > > Friends, > > James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it > better. > > For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, > please GoTo > www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or > mailing list fast :-). > > Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party > member, and I'll assign > you a BAARF party membership number right away. You > can reach Bold > Membership Status if you can argue that you've been > fighting RAID-F for > a long time, a medium time, a short time or an > extremely short time. > > Best regards, > > Mogens > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Barbara Baker INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
FYI: The BAARF gif is now the background on my desktop at work. Goes well with the hat. ;) Jared Mogens Nørgaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/10/2003 03:19 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject:World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Friends, James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-). Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. Best regards, Mogens -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Friends, James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-). Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. Best regards, Mogens -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
