Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Paul Speed]

And I am using threading by subject and so they all end up in the same 
thread... but they are out of context within that thread since 
Thunderbird doesn't know which specific post to drop them off of.


A little annoying but at least it's a clear indicator that it is a forum 
post... and therefore likely to be only one or two lines without any 
inline reference to the previous post... and along the lines of "Yeah, 
me too." or "fifth post!!!"... :)  I kid because I care. ;)


-Paul

Paul Melis wrote:

Hi,

Art Tevs wrote:
hmm, yes it seems there are no In-Reply-To header tag, when a message 
is sent through the forum. But I has never recieved any threading 
issue with the message, since my mail client is able to thread them by 
the subject. You are first who raised this issue ;), maybe your mail 
client has to be setted up properly,   
Actually, I use thunderbird and have specifically disabled 
threading-by-subject, as it simply does not work well enough and I have 
too many other mailboxes besides OSG where threading-by-subject would 
lead to incorrect results. I'm not going to enable it globally (and 
there doesn't seem to be a way in thunderbird to enable 
thread-by-subject for a single mailbox).  It happens quite frequently 
that a new thread is started with a subject that matches an older 
thread. With threading-by-subject the new messages will end up in the 
existing (unrelated) thread and therefore in the wrong place. Using the 
in-reply-to headers is the only reliable way to thread, although a few 
heuristics could probably help here.


Paul
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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Paul Melis]

Hi,

Art Tevs wrote:
hmm, yes it seems there are no In-Reply-To header tag, when a message is sent through the forum. But I has never recieved any threading issue with the message, since my mail client is able to thread them by the subject. You are first who raised this issue ;), maybe your mail client has to be setted up properly, 
  
Actually, I use thunderbird and have specifically disabled 
threading-by-subject, as it simply does not work well enough and I have 
too many other mailboxes besides OSG where threading-by-subject would 
lead to incorrect results. I'm not going to enable it globally (and 
there doesn't seem to be a way in thunderbird to enable 
thread-by-subject for a single mailbox).  It happens quite frequently 
that a new thread is started with a subject that matches an older 
thread. With threading-by-subject the new messages will end up in the 
existing (unrelated) thread and therefore in the wrong place. Using the 
in-reply-to headers is the only reliable way to thread, although a few 
heuristics could probably help here.


Paul
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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Art Tevs]

Hi Paul,

hmm, yes it seems there are no In-Reply-To header tag, when a message is sent 
through the forum. But I has never recieved any threading issue with the 
message, since my mail client is able to thread them by the subject. You are 
first who raised this issue ;), maybe your mail client has to be setted up 
properly, 

I could try to implement this, however I am not sure now how to do this. I'll 
put it onto my ToDo list...

Best regards,
art



Paul Melis wrote:
> OT: why are all the posts in this thread coming from the forum not 
> threading correctly? It seems the mails don't have an in-reply-to 
> header. Was this always the case for posts coming from the forum?
> 
> Regards,
> Paul
> 


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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Paul Melis]

OT: why are all the posts in this thread coming from the forum not 
threading correctly? It seems the mails don't have an in-reply-to 
header. Was this always the case for posts coming from the forum?


Regards,
Paul

Art Tevs wrote:

Hi Robert,

I've registered for you, you should recieve an activation mail. Please change the password as soon as you activated your account. If you would like to have different name, then let me know, I change it. As soon as you have activated this, I will give you admin/moderator rights, so that you are can perform moderation tasks whenever you like. 


As to the Name issue, you are right, we should have some kind of First Last 
Name approach, however I am not sure if everybody would like this, because 
maybe somebody do like staying anonymous. I have already let users with strange 
names knows, that their account will be deactivated if they do not change their 
real name. Let's see what happens in the next days.

cheers,
art

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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Art Tevs]

Hi Robert,

I've registered for you, you should recieve an activation mail. Please change 
the password as soon as you activated your account. If you would like to have 
different name, then let me know, I change it. As soon as you have activated 
this, I will give you admin/moderator rights, so that you are can perform 
moderation tasks whenever you like. 

As to the Name issue, you are right, we should have some kind of First Last 
Name approach, however I am not sure if everybody would like this, because 
maybe somebody do like staying anonymous. I have already let users with strange 
names knows, that their account will be deactivated if they do not change their 
real name. Let's see what happens in the next days.

cheers,
art

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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Robert Osfield]

Hi Art,

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Art Tevs  wrote:

> Ok, this is doable. I am currently working on this. However in order to do
> so, you, Robert, has also to be registered on the forum. I will then give
> you according permissions, so that you are able to see those users and also
> able to approve them.


I have just attempt to subscribe but got kicked out with a message "You have
exceeded the number of registration attempts for this session. Please try
again later."   It kept telling me that I'm typed in the cryptic code
incorrectly, I'm pretty sure I got it right each time.

Ok, this is also doable, however one would need to continuosly moderate the
> forum/read all messages. Currently there is only me and Roland who are
> moderating the forum. If we could get some more volunteers  for checking the
> etiquette it would be great! This makes sure that there is always somebody
> who is able to moderate.
>

I'm able happy to register (once I can) but being an active moderator would
be taking on too much as I'm already overstretched.   I would have thought
that we could avoid having to approach all message, so passive moderation
rather than active one.  i.e. we just keep track of threads/posts and if
something is going off the rails then to moderate.



>
> > Having better user names will certainly help, as a number of recent forum
> subscribers just have two letter user names which mean absolutely nothing in
> any language.  A decent user name gives us the chance of keeping track of
> who's who and who's said what, and who to reply to on different topics.
> >
>
> How about "Ed" ? No, this is not true. There are names with just 2 letters,
> maybe not in our european languages, but in other there are (chinese?) ;)
> And we could not force users to write there first and last name, because
> maybe they want to have some kind of anonymity, which has to be respected.
> However, I agree that names like "Xh" or maybe are not acceptable.
>

Well there are nick names that are two letters, but with a big community
like ours there will almost certainly be more than one person with the same
nick name.  Who gets to choose who can use there nick name and who doesn't?

Going by nick names only really works with small communities, such as
between friends + family.  With large communities communication needn't be
formal, but we need to take into account the fact that breadth of the
community both in size and diversity - and use a longer names that uniquely
distinguish individuals is part of this.  The longer names needn't be actual
names, but they do need to be human readable and travel well across
different countries and be to be distinct.

I've just realised there is a bit of parallel to the code of the
OpenSceneGraph in this topic...  I have a inclination towards long
description names for classes and enums, and prefer it specifically for
communication/recall purposes.  If you have a small number of classes and
functionality you can get away with cryptic names, but with a big library
it's impossible to keep track of things - imagine renaming all our classes
as a two letter name.   Any guesses what Ob, Nd, Gp, Sw, Se, Pd, Ld, Ge, Dr,
Rf, Rp, Md, Mf might be?? ;-)

Robert.



Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Art Tevs]

Hi,

corrected. There was some database error, I had to restart it. Check it out.

Cheers,
art

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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Paul Melis]

Art Tevs wrote:

Hi folks,

I've setted up a "Rule"-page http://forum.openscenegraph.org/rules.php describing the etiquette of forum/mailing list use. I have 

Hmmm, the rules page seems unaccessible (just like the rest of the forum):

*Warning*: mysql_connect() [function.mysql-connect 
]: Host 
'alpha.ip.elowar.com' is blocked because of many connection errors; 
unblock with 'mysqladmin flush-hosts' in 
*/var/www/tevs.eu/subdomains/osgforum/httpdocs/db/mysql4.php* on line *48*


*Warning*: mysql_error(): supplied argument is not a valid MySQL-Link 
resource in 
*/var/www/tevs.eu/subdomains/osgforum/httpdocs/db/mysql4.php* on line *330*


*Warning*: mysql_errno(): supplied argument is not a valid MySQL-Link 
resource in 
*/var/www/tevs.eu/subdomains/osgforum/httpdocs/db/mysql4.php* on line *331*

phpBB : *Critical Error*

Could not connect to the database



Paul
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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Art Tevs]

Hi folks,

I've setted up a "Rule"-page http://forum.openscenegraph.org/rules.php 
describing the etiquette of forum/mailing list use. I have also setted up 
anything which is needed to disable users with non-valid realnames. Users could 
now be deactivated, so that they can not post anything, but are still able to 
login and change there profile settings.

I do not really like the idea of activating the registration by administrators, 
because this makes the forum dependent on administrator online times and could 
also bring the registration rates down. 

However, I propose just have couple of volunteer moderators/admins which will 
disable a user as soon as him break one of the rules described on the page. 
User will then still be able to access their profile and change it according to 
the rules. Users are then also able to write a PM (private message) to any of 
the moderators/administrators, so that they could reactivate the account. 

I will let now all users know that there are new rules which has to be 
investigated by them. During the week I would check the profiles and deactivate 
those, which still use cryptic real names.

Cheers,
Art

P.S. Please let me know if you would like to add some rules or to change the 
existing ones.

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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Art Tevs]

Hi Robert, all


> 
> I wasn't thinking of this, rather I just meant for a group of maintainers, 
> like yourself and I and others regular contributors to act as the approval 
> system.  We'd recieve a post saying that someone has asked to be subscribed 
> and when approve/disapprove/or make approval conditional on providing a more 
> human readable user name,
>  
> Could you have a admin webpage that lists those awaiting approval?
> 
> 

Ok, this is doable. I am currently working on this. However in order to do so, 
you, Robert, has also to be registered on the forum. I will then give you 
according permissions, so that you are able to see those users and also able to 
approve them.
  

> 
> Perhaps making the duality of the forum/lists and the documenting the 
> expected etiquette/code of conduct is required, along with existing members 
> providing good examples of how to communicate the community, and if people 
> are rude/awkward about following good etiquette we provide initially a gentle 
> nudge about how one should write, then scale it up to removing subscription 
> if they are destructive.  I've only had to remove 2 subscribers from the 
> mailing list is not far off a decade so I don't it'll be a big issue.  Most 
> people are quite good about making more of effort to fit in if asked in a 
> appropriate way.
> 

Ok, this is also doable, however one would need to continuosly moderate the 
forum/read all messages. Currently there is only me and Roland who are 
moderating the forum. If we could get some more volunteers  for checking the 
etiquette it would be great! This makes sure that there is always somebody who 
is able to moderate.


> 
> Having better user names will certainly help, as a number of recent forum 
> subscribers just have two letter user names which mean absolutely nothing in 
> any language.  A decent user name gives us the chance of keeping track of 
> who's who and who's said what, and who to reply to on different topics. 
> 

How about "Ed" ? No, this is not true. There are names with just 2 letters, 
maybe not in our european languages, but in other there are (chinese?) ;) And 
we could not force users to write there first and last name, because maybe they 
want to have some kind of anonymity, which has to be respected. However, I 
agree that names like "Xh" or maybe are not acceptable.


Art

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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Robert Osfield]

Hi Art,

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Art Tevs  wrote:

> I think adding another approval system to let users approve that they have
> to follow some kind of etiquette  wouldn't have big success. Users would
> just click on  "Yes, I agree" as soon as they see that button. Hence, I am
> not sure if this is needed at all.


I wasn't thinking of this, rather I just meant for a group of maintainers,
like yourself and I and others regular contributors to act as the approval
system.  We'd recieve a post saying that someone has asked to be subscribed
and when approve/disapprove/or make approval conditional on providing a more
human readable user name,


> However checking the users manually is doable at the current registration
> rates (1-2 per day). Moderators (Roland) or admins (currently only me) could
> disable users with not clear real names and first activate them after the
> name was changed to something clearly. I could already start doing so with
> the current users. Of course it would be cool if we could get maybe a
> volunteer  else for that, so that there is always somebody who is able to do
> so. Technically this would be little bit different, because I have to
> implement some kind of synchronization between admins/moderators, so that
> they know which user is currently being deactivated for the name issue and
> which not.


Could you have a admin webpage that lists those awaiting approval?


> All this kind of forcing correct real name wouldn't however change the way
> how users are posting. I think there is even a difference in the way of
> posting between forum and mailing list users from the psychological point of
> view. eMail feels like they are slower and not editable and hence
> communication is get more informative. Forums are faster in use and postings
> could be edited and hence the discussion there becames often a chat like and
> therefor users forget to add signatures or even to say "Hello".


I think this probably depends upon an individuals preferences, I personally
find mailing lists quicker and more immediate, and that forums rather
awkward to contribute to.


> So, the problem of etiquette is hard to solve, because it depends only on
> the users. As for the using real names, I think I could write some kind of a
> system for the admins/moderators to manage users with non-informative real
> names.


Perhaps making the duality of the forum/lists and the documenting the
expected etiquette/code of conduct is required, along with existing members
providing good examples of how to communicate the community, and if people
are rude/awkward about following good etiquette we provide initially a
gentle nudge about how one should write, then scale it up to removing
subscription if they are destructive.  I've only had to remove 2 subscribers
from the mailing list is not far off a decade so I don't it'll be a big
issue.  Most people are quite good about making more of effort to fit in if
asked in a appropriate way.

Having better user names will certainly help, as a number of recent forum
subscribers just have two letter user names which mean absolutely nothing in
any language.  A decent user name gives us the chance of keeping track of
who's who and who's said what, and who to reply to on different topics.


> The problem with the email addresses used as sender's email (default
> osgfo...@tevs.eu) is hard to solve without making some changes also to the
> mailing list itself, which is not doable for me. What I could try is to
> change email header in the way, so that it looks like it was sent from the
> mail of the user, however using default's forum email in the header.
> However, I am not sure how mailman (osg's mailing list software) would react
> on this, because this is actually a way how spammers handle.
>

I'm less concerned about the email address as the send email.  Knowing that
a post comes from the forum with the decent user name is sufficient for
me.   Perhaps if one could provide a link to the forum users online details
would be sufficient for those who want to contact somebody directly.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Paul Melis]

Art Tevs wrote:

Hi Robert, all.

I think adding another approval system to let users approve that they have to follow some 
kind of etiquette  wouldn't have big success. Users would just click on  "Yes, I 
agree" as soon as they see that button. Hence, I am not sure if this is needed at 
all.

[...]
  
All this kind of forcing correct real name wouldn't however change the way how users are posting. I think there is even a difference in the way of posting between forum and mailing list users from the psychological point of view. eMail feels like they are slower and not editable and hence communication is get more informative. Forums are faster in use and postings could be edited and hence the discussion there becames often a chat like and therefor users forget to add signatures or even to say "Hello".  
  

I definitely agree with this observation. Forums are more "chat-like".
So, the problem of etiquette is hard to solve, because it depends only on the users. As for the using real names, I think I could write some kind of a system for the admins/moderators to manage users with non-informative real names. 
  
As you say, the problem of etiquette is hard to solve and I don't think 
much will change. I personally have more problems with folks that post 
to the list (either directly or through the forum) and seem to demand an 
immediate answer from somebody than with posts that don't have a 
signature. The latter is more annoying when there's also no e-mail 
address for that poster due to him/her posting through the forum.


Perhaps we should see the forum<->list gateway as an experiment and 
shouldn't be afraid to sever the link when it turns out that the two 
forms of community are not compatible enough...

The problem with the email addresses used as sender's email (default 
osgfo...@tevs.eu) is hard to solve without making some changes also to the 
mailing list itself, which is not doable for me. What I could try is to change 
email header in the way, so that it looks like it was sent from the mail of the 
user, however using default's forum email in the header. However, I am not sure 
how mailman (osg's mailing list software) would react on this, because this is 
actually a way how spammers handle.
  
Robert didn't mention this "problem" in his original mail and as such 
might not have high priority. It was merely something I noticed and 
occassionaly run into, but we've got to remember that this is not 
something the forum users are responsible for. It's merely a technical 
thingy due to the way the forum gateway works.


Regards,
Paul
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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Art Tevs]

Hi folks,

ok, I took a look into email header standards and it seems there exists a 
solution for our purpose. I could specify in the from header users realname and 
users real email adress. Although the email will still  be sent from 
osgfo...@tevs.eu, using the "Sender: "  tag in the header. However, I am not 
sure if mailman (mailing list server) will then let the email through. 
osgfo...@tevs.eu is registered on the mailing list, however users email adress 
in the "From: " header tag could be not. 

Robert, is there any possibility for you to setup the mailman to allow this? So 
that it filters not only based on the "From: "  header tag, but also on the 
"Sender: " header tag. If one of them matches, then email should get through. 

I will implement and test it tonight in the later hours, when forum isn't 
visited as much as during the day. If mailman passes the test mails then 
nothing has to be configured.

cheers,
art

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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Art Tevs]

Hi Robert, all.

I think adding another approval system to let users approve that they have to 
follow some kind of etiquette  wouldn't have big success. Users would just 
click on  "Yes, I agree" as soon as they see that button. Hence, I am not sure 
if this is needed at all.

However checking the users manually is doable at the current registration rates 
(1-2 per day). Moderators (Roland) or admins (currently only me) could disable 
users with not clear real names and first activate them after the name was 
changed to something clearly. I could already start doing so with the current 
users. Of course it would be cool if we could get maybe a volunteer  else for 
that, so that there is always somebody who is able to do so. Technically this 
would be little bit different, because I have to implement some kind of 
synchronization between admins/moderators, so that they know which user is 
currently being deactivated for the name issue and which not.

All this kind of forcing correct real name wouldn't however change the way how 
users are posting. I think there is even a difference in the way of posting 
between forum and mailing list users from the psychological point of view. 
eMail feels like they are slower and not editable and hence communication is 
get more informative. Forums are faster in use and postings could be edited and 
hence the discussion there becames often a chat like and therefor users forget 
to add signatures or even to say "Hello".  

So, the problem of etiquette is hard to solve, because it depends only on the 
users. As for the using real names, I think I could write some kind of a system 
for the admins/moderators to manage users with non-informative real names. 

The problem with the email addresses used as sender's email (default 
osgfo...@tevs.eu) is hard to solve without making some changes also to the 
mailing list itself, which is not doable for me. What I could try is to change 
email header in the way, so that it looks like it was sent from the mail of the 
user, however using default's forum email in the header. However, I am not sure 
how mailman (osg's mailing list software) would react on this, because this is 
actually a way how spammers handle.

Art

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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Robert Osfield]

Hi Sukender,

I'd prefer not to go in heavy handed, but find a system that right at the
begining sets the right tone for future communication.  I wonder if
providing a better introductory text to forum and mailing about etiquette
and good examples of user names, and have all new subscribers need to be
manually approved - at this approval point one could get back to the
subscriber and ask for human readable user name if one hasn't been given.
For such an approval system we'd need a set of volunteers to be available to
vet and approve new subscribers.  The rate of subscription is around 1 a day
so it typically wouldn't be a great deal of work, the hard part is providing
a quick turn around.

I'll have to defer to Art on how practical this is.

Robert.

On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 12:22 AM, Sukender  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> And what about manually banning (temporarily) from the forum those who
> don't respect basic rules? That could be simple:
> 1. Warn the user if the real name isn't explicit enough
> 2. Ban until real name is changed (The user could still use the mailing
> list)
>
> I'm pretty sure people would not to dare keeping an unclear name for a very
> long time...
> That would require a bit programming but that would not be very difficult I
> guess.
> I just hope this isn't too radical!
>
> And another idea could be to get a reminder each week (or month?) if the
> email address isn't set (or is the default one).
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Sukender
> PVLE - Lightweight cross-platform game engine -
> http://pvle.sourceforge.net/
>
>
> Le Mon, 16 Mar 2009 17:53:01 +0100, Art Tevs  a écrit:
>
> >
> > Thrall, Bryan wrote:
> >>
> >> It looks like the forum supports signatures; could you just assign a
> >> default signature based on the user's given Real Name and email? You
> >> can't force them to give their actual Real Name, but I imagine most
> >> people wouldn't lie on that, even if they don't use their Real Name for
> >> their forum ID.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Hi Bryan,
> >
> > actually printing out an automaticly generated signature wouldn't change
> anything, because users' real name values are already used in From header of
> the generated email. Hence if user X does call himself Mister X, then the
> email heaer looks like this:
> > From: Mister X <>
> >
> > Even if there will be now a forced signature the signature can still not
> give more information that user has given. The signature could look like
> this:
> > -
> > Forum user: Mister X (X) <>
> >
> > So the one thing I could add is mister X's used email adress and nothing
> else, because there is just no more information available.
> >
> > art
> >
> > --
> > Read this topic online here:
> > http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=8548#8548
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
>
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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Sukender]

Hi all,

And what about manually banning (temporarily) from the forum those who don't 
respect basic rules? That could be simple:
1. Warn the user if the real name isn't explicit enough
2. Ban until real name is changed (The user could still use the mailing list)

I'm pretty sure people would not to dare keeping an unclear name for a very 
long time...
That would require a bit programming but that would not be very difficult I 
guess.
I just hope this isn't too radical!

And another idea could be to get a reminder each week (or month?) if the email 
address isn't set (or is the default one).

Thoughts?

Sukender
PVLE - Lightweight cross-platform game engine - http://pvle.sourceforge.net/


Le Mon, 16 Mar 2009 17:53:01 +0100, Art Tevs  a écrit:

>
> Thrall, Bryan wrote:
>>
>> It looks like the forum supports signatures; could you just assign a
>> default signature based on the user's given Real Name and email? You
>> can't force them to give their actual Real Name, but I imagine most
>> people wouldn't lie on that, even if they don't use their Real Name for
>> their forum ID.
>>
>
>
> Hi Bryan,
>
> actually printing out an automaticly generated signature wouldn't change 
> anything, because users' real name values are already used in From header of 
> the generated email. Hence if user X does call himself Mister X, then the 
> email heaer looks like this:
> From: Mister X <>
>
> Even if there will be now a forced signature the signature can still not give 
> more information that user has given. The signature could look like this:
> -
> Forum user: Mister X (X) <>
>
> So the one thing I could add is mister X's used email adress and nothing 
> else, because there is just no more information available.
>
> art
>
> --
> Read this topic online here:
> http://forum.openscenegraph.org/viewtopic.php?p=8548#8548
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Robert Osfield]

Hi Ed,

On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Ed  wrote:

> I won't use a forum mainly because of the spam generated when I have used
> forums in the past... I know there are probably things in place now to
> prevent or reduce email harvesting from forums, but all the same, I won't
> use forums anymore... not so long as there an alternative.  As for cryptic
> names, I don't see the problem... does every user have to be identified?
>

We don't need to exact name but we need a name, it's a basic principle of
human communication that you need to know who saying what to whomn,  if all
2000 of us took up the name "John Smith" then it would be a pretty hard to
keep up an semblance of humanity.  It would be quite simply impossible to
keep track of things.

At personal level, I think it's dishonest not to being open about who you
are.  Alas it's fact of online life that people to hid their identity,
sometimes their are valid reasons but rarely in the case of community such
as ours.  While you can subscribe to lists/forum and assume any name, not
assuming any level of human readable name is just plain awful for everybody
else in the community that has to deal with such individuals.

As soon as you dive in you are part of the community, and this community has
to be a healthy place to hang out for everybody involved, and if you want
help from others in the community surely you want to maximize the chances
that others will help you.  Being polite, open and curteous is the best way
to achieve good support, one big element of this is telling people who you
and how to you liked to be addressed you.

As an experiment, for all you face to face social meetings were you'd
normally give your name, don't bother giving your name, just say sorry I
don't tell people my name.  Also instead of addressing people with their
name just say what you want to say to everybody and if the right person
doesn't respond just speak louder, and keep speaking louder until you get
the response you want.  At the same time avoid any eye contact in all
conversations.   I'm pretty sure you'd start loosing friends + associates
pretty quickly.

In electronic communication we have no eye to eye contact.  We have no tone
of voice to pick up.  We have no face expressions to read.  We have no hand
guestures.  When we talk we talk with many thousands of people are
potentially listening.   In this context perhaps you might see that you have
to cling on to what parts of our humanity make communication successful -
yep it's know who's talking and who they want to talk to is fundamental.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Ed]

I won't use a forum mainly because of the spam generated when I have 
used forums in the past... I know there are probably things in place now 
to prevent or reduce email harvesting from forums, but all the same, I 
won't use forums anymore... not so long as there an alternative.  As for 
cryptic names, I don't see the problem... does every user have to be 
identified?


Ed

Art Tevs wrote:

rosme wrote:
  

Would it be an idea if mail2forum generates an HTML e-mail similar to a forum 
response?

--
Roland




It wouldn't be a big problem, however I am not sure if people, who are like to use 
mailing list only, would be happy about that. I think that even some part of the 
community use "pine" or other text based mail clients ;)

However this still would not solve the problem of cryptic names and same 
default senders email adress.

art

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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Ed]

I won't use a forum mainly because of the spam generated when I have 
used forums in the past... I know there are probably things in place now 
to prevent or reduce email harvesting from forums, but all the same, I 
won't use forums anymore... not so long as there an alternative.  As for 
cryptic names, I don't see the problem... does every user have to be 
identified?


Ed

Art Tevs wrote:

rosme wrote:
  

Would it be an idea if mail2forum generates an HTML e-mail similar to a forum 
response?

--
Roland




It wouldn't be a big problem, however I am not sure if people, who are like to use 
mailing list only, would be happy about that. I think that even some part of the 
community use "pine" or other text based mail clients ;)

However this still would not solve the problem of cryptic names and same 
default senders email adress.

art

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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Art Tevs]

Thrall, Bryan wrote:
> 
> It looks like the forum supports signatures; could you just assign a
> default signature based on the user's given Real Name and email? You
> can't force them to give their actual Real Name, but I imagine most
> people wouldn't lie on that, even if they don't use their Real Name for
> their forum ID.
> 


Hi Bryan,

actually printing out an automaticly generated signature wouldn't change 
anything, because users' real name values are already used in From header of 
the generated email. Hence if user X does call himself Mister X, then the email 
heaer looks like this:
From: Mister X <>

Even if there will be now a forced signature the signature can still not give 
more information that user has given. The signature could look like this:
-
Forum user: Mister X (X) <>

So the one thing I could add is mister X's used email adress and nothing else, 
because there is just no more information available.

art

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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Thrall, Bryan]

Art Tevs wrote on Monday, March 16, 2009 11:24 AM:

> Hi Roland,
> 
> yes I can do some adjustments, however the current setup is the most
one can
> take out of the current situtation, I think. 
> 
> Users are forced to write a real name. Email is sent as: From: Real
Name
>  or if user do change its profile, then it can also
be
> From: Real Name   
> 
> However, as I posted previously, this isn't doable because the
> forum<->mailing list connection doesn't allow more that it does
currently. 
> 
> Some investigation and research has to be made, how to solve that
issues.
> Also please don't forgett that to force a user to do something will
never
> work in most of the cases, it has to be done completly automatically.


It looks like the forum supports signatures; could you just assign a
default signature based on the user's given Real Name and email? You
can't force them to give their actual Real Name, but I imagine most
people wouldn't lie on that, even if they don't use their Real Name for
their forum ID.

-- 
Bryan Thrall
FlightSafety International
bryan.thr...@flightsafety.com
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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Art Tevs]

rosme wrote:
> Would it be an idea if mail2forum generates an HTML e-mail similar to a forum 
> response?
> 
> --
> Roland


It wouldn't be a big problem, however I am not sure if people, who are like to 
use mailing list only, would be happy about that. I think that even some part 
of the community use "pine" or other text based mail clients ;)

However this still would not solve the problem of cryptic names and same 
default senders email adress.

art

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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Robert Osfield]

2009/3/16 Roland Smeenk 

> You mean forum posts like this???
>

We'll at least you have a name that others can get an idea of who you
are...  Most forum users don't to seem to have any human readable user name
at all, and don't both to sign their names.

Email/forum messages really aren't much different than other written forms
of communication, it's basic courtesy to actually sign what your write to
other people and really helps make written exchanges more civil.   It's a
sad fact that electronic community can lead to people becoming so lazy that
even basic courtesy is ignored, they might not mean to be rude but without
any attempt at communication at personal level is really hard sometimes not
to read into some posts that posts the author simply being a self-centered
and rude.

I raise this as an issue because with electronic communication unproductive
flame feast can easily erupt, it only takes one or two posts to come across
in an aggressive tone for replies to descend to the same level and so the
spiral of community descends.  If we can avoid the communication getting
impersonal in the first place then we stand a better chance of keeping
communication positive.

Sure there will always be some posters that some of the time will be
genuinely rude just because they are that type of person, or a normally good
natured person at the wrong time of day, this is part of life, none of us
are perfect.  You want these posts to stand out like a sore thumb, the
exceptions to the daily grind of life.  If most posts start sounding like
the author is not making any effort to be civil then it's hard to keep
general good natured tone up.

Robert.
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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Roland Smeenk]

Would it be an idea if mail2forum generates an HTML e-mail similar to a forum 
response?

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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Art Tevs]

Hi Roland,

yes I can do some adjustments, however the current setup is the most one can 
take out of the current situtation, I think.

Users are forced to write a real name. Email is sent as: From: Real Name 
 or if user do change its profile, then it can also be From: 
Real Name 

However, as I posted previously, this isn't doable because the forum<->mailing 
list connection doesn't allow more that it does currently.

Some investigation and research has to be made, how to solve that issues. Also 
please don't forgett that to force a user to do something will never work in 
most of the cases, it has to be done completly automatically.

cheers

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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Art Tevs]

Hi Robert, Paul.

Ok, let me first answer Roberts questions and then coming to Paul's.

@Robert:
Yes, I was also afraid if forum becames more wide used, so that the community 
might became more anonymized then by using mailing list. I noticed same 
behaviour on any forum. Users are just very lazy and do not either add proper 
realnames, or any signature. Forum does already do one thing against that, so 
that it force users to setup a real name before they can register. However you 
can not control, what they are writing in the Realname field during the 
registration process. Hence, I am not sure, how this issue can be solved at 
all???

@Paul:
The main reason because all of forum users post have the same senders adress is 
that people not even able to manage to read the "READ ME FIRST" Announcement on 
the forum! 
The problem is, that you can only post on the mailing list if you register 
yourself with your own email adress on it. However as forum users might be not 
registered on the mailing list at all, their posts could never reach the 
mailing list. In the beginning I just forced every user to register with the 
same email adress as on the mailing list. But new users just ignore this. As I 
said they even ignore what I have written in the "READ ME .." on the forum, 
which has to be taking into account when using the forum. 
Hence new users posted messages on the forum, but they were not forwarded to 
the mailing list, because users' email adress was not registered on the ML. 
Hence the only solution was to declare some default email adress which can be 
used as senders adress for every user. However this can be disabled by every 
users in their profiles, but I am afraid that this will almost never happen, 
because 90% of users not even read the READMEs :( !!!

To solve the issue with the same sender's email adress one has either to allow 
to post from every mail adress onto the mailing list, which will open the door 
for spamming. Or to create some interface for the mailing list which can be 
used by the forum to post onto it, however this would require some research and 
development of such an interface. Maybe somebody has an idea about that?

cheers,
art

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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Roland Smeenk]

I bet Art can come up with a forum adjustment to automatically add the 
username, real name  and possibly the forum e-mail.

kind regards,

Roland Smeenk
---
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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Roland Smeenk]

You mean forum posts like this???

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Re: [osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Paul Melis]

Robert Osfield wrote:
With the advent of forum.openscenegraph.org 
 developed ably by Art Tevs we have a 
great new avenue for users to choice whether they prefer forum or 
mailing list for support... which is great but... for mailing list 
users the posts from forum members have become rather impersonal, with 
all too cryptic usernames, something that can happen with emails too 
but is happening far more readily with forum members.   Once postings 
starting loose who they are from they also loose the self regulating 
and personal nature to them, and it makes bad tempered posts more 
likely, either at original source, or in response. 
Another thing with the forum is that all senders have the same e-mail 
(osgfo...@tevs.eu), so in effect you can't send somebody a personal 
reply without first lookup up their real e-mail address on the forum. 
CC-ing them is also not possible. I assume the forum<->list gateway uses 
the From: name to match up a post on the list with a user on the forum?


Paul
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[osg-users] Forum users rare uses signatures, which is a pain tracking who's who

[Robert Osfield]

Hi All,

With the advent of forum.openscenegraph.org developed ably by Art Tevs we
have a great new avenue for users to choice whether they prefer forum or
mailing list for support... which is great but... for mailing list users the
posts from forum members have become rather impersonal, with all too cryptic
usernames, something that can happen with emails too but is happening far
more readily with forum members.   Once postings starting loose who they are
from they also loose the self regulating and personal nature to them, and it
makes bad tempered posts more likely, either at original source, or in
response.

Making the effort to make your posts more personable and friendly is a great
help to general health of the community, signing posts might seem like a
small thing, but it really doesn't make a huge difference - it's a big step
to making exchanges friendly and positive.  Dozens of times of the last
month I've have to ask users to make this tiny little bit of effort, but
with more forum users this is becoming a uphill struggle.

Might there be a technical solution to this?  Does the forum software have
the data to properly sign emails, or to put a proper name in the address?
Either way a solution of some kind really needs to be found.  In the
meantime I can enforce my own little mechanism of just ignoring all posts
with a cryptic author name... so if you want support you'll need to make the
effort to be curtious.

Thanks in advance for all your friendly signatures ;-)
Robert.
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