RE: Future of .NET
I put in Objective Programmer and that's shot up 682%. Couldn't quite get Objective C in there, just Objective. Don't know if that means anything, of course! From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Cooney Sent: Thursday, 22 August 2013 3:38 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: Future of .NET Fool me once - shame on you. Fool me twice.you know the rest. On 22 Aug 2013 15:36, David Kean david.k...@microsoft.com mailto:david.k...@microsoft.com wrote: Have faith my friends. Have faith. Do not confuse the strategy of a single p l of that of the company or that of DevDiv. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ] On Behalf Of Joseph Cooney Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:22 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: Future of .NET The mono project and xamarin seem to be doing great things with and for .net. Apart from some bright spots, devdiv have jumped the shark. On 22 Aug 2013 15:16, Greg Harris harris.gre...@gmail.com mailto:harris.gre...@gmail.com wrote: I was told at Uni (1980) that COBOL was going to die real soon... Since then COBOL paid off all of my first mortgage. It was not until about 1994 that COBOL stopped earning for me and I am sure that there are a lot of people out there still paying their way with it. .NET may be on the start of a down turn, but if it is, it has a long way to go, for now I am happy to stay with .NET, but Microsoft scare me, they have to look out for what they think is best for Microsoft and we could get swept up with the good or the bad of that, we have to accept that we have little control of the ride we are on! Would other options be better, I doubt it, just different. Interesting to look at the job trends, look at: http://www.simplyhired.com/a/jobtrends/trend/q-asp.net+programmer%2Cruby+pro grammer%2Clamp+programmer http://www.simplyhired.com/a/jobtrends/graph/q-asp.net+programmer,ruby+prog rammer,lamp+programmer/t-line There is a down trend which is not good, I don't know why the data stops a year ago It may have all changed in the last year? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Scott Barnes scott.bar...@gmail.com mailto:scott.bar...@gmail.com wrote: In 2008 there was a tipping point in the .NET scene overall and the timing was likely due to the post .NET adoption peak or high as to grow further meant you had to go to outlying areas of the market. It also had to do with the amount of investment and evangelism that went on in Academic institutions also dropped significantly (due to scenarios where teachers didn't like ASP.NET http://ASP.NET or WinForms due to their blurring of basic OOP principles mixed with costs associated - compared to python, java, php, etc) Microsoft decided to react and it's really been a 3-5 year campaign on driving adoption in the outlying areas - specifically going after pretty much the entire landscape(s) of competitors at once ... i mean if they aren't fighting and campaigning to convince you all that Google is the enemy then its Apple and when not Apple it's back to the LAMP is evil etc. The problem is they've lost perspective by shifting everyone from strategies that start and finish on the fiscal year time lines they in turn have created this area of uncertainty where you have a lot of .NET coders out there writing WinForms, WebForms, Asp MVC, WPF, Silverlight etc all being told they really need to stop doing this and go with HTML5/JS for Windows8/Wp8 or C++ for more intensive scenarios. If you then still reject they then concede XAML/C# is fine but you still need to write code differently because even the name spaces are different (yet you can't figure out why given well..they behave and act the same as their counterparts...) which you then realise that was a forcing function on adopting new over old. By not giving a transition period between 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 to now.. they've basically pushed the crowd of .NET further away from a sustaining model of adoption. It then asks everyone who are loyal to the brands and technology that comes out from Microsoft to consider two things - Can you trust us to stick this strategy out given our past and Have you really considered us against the alternative? If this were a political party soliciting you for your vote its as if they've told you vote for us and will probably tax you more can't say for sure :) So yeah, adoption cycles are going to fluctuate around what happens post Winforms/Wpf of past... I'd wager that gaming industry will influence the outcome given they have a lot more to win/loose around this entire uncertainty (given device/desktop/console buying power is massive). That's where a lot of start-ups occupy today - gaming/kickstarter style space. --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Andrew McGrath andrew.mcgr
Re: Future of .NET
Well as I say often ... as long as Windows XP - Windows 8 exists so will WPF, Winforms Silverlight.. so i guess we (.net devs) can wait out the stupidity of that which is Microsoft's developer adoption craziness until either an alternative comes along or a more cleaner approach. Right now if a .NET dev *wanted* to develop in the new world the overall Win8 ubiquity isn't enough to provide an incentive to so at the very least you've got to wait out the adoption of the actual operating system for another 1-2 years assuming that's where the trends continue to head (devices etc). So far Surface sales are a rounding error in most of their competitors sales scores... I think combine Mono with even solutions like Unity you can do some real damage even in the enterprise. Just last night I designed developed a solution in Silverlight first and a mono shared library which i'm now copying over into Unity3D for iOS/Android/PC/OSX deployment *look mah, no .NET hands..* ...via the use of NoesisGUI framework ( http://www.noesisinteractive.com/) .. To me Unity3D = 3D/2D rendering pipeline I could use for my own evil needs ... ironically when it comes to the web I find *that* to be the most annoying part - hence i went with Silverlight .. --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 5:19 PM, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: I put in Objective Programmer and that’s shot up 682%. ** ** Couldn’t quite get Objective C in there, just Objective. Don’t know if that means anything, of course! ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Joseph Cooney *Sent:* Thursday, 22 August 2013 3:38 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* RE: Future of .NET ** ** Fool me once - shame on you. Fool me twice.you know the rest. On 22 Aug 2013 15:36, David Kean david.k...@microsoft.com wrote: Have faith my friends. Have faith. Do not confuse the strategy of a single p l of that of the company or that of DevDiv. *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Joseph Cooney *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:22 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: Future of .NET The mono project and xamarin seem to be doing great things with and for .net. Apart from some bright spots, devdiv have jumped the shark. On 22 Aug 2013 15:16, Greg Harris harris.gre...@gmail.com wrote: I was told at Uni (1980) that COBOL was going to die real soon... Since then COBOL paid off all of my first mortgage. It was not until about 1994 that COBOL stopped earning for me and I am sure that there are a lot of people out there still paying their way with it. .NET may be on the start of a down turn, but if it is, it has a long way to go, for now I am happy to stay with .NET, but Microsoft scare me, they have to look out for what they think is best for Microsoft and we could get swept up with the good or the bad of that, we have to accept that we have little control of the ride we are on! Would other options be better, I doubt it, just different. Interesting to look at the job trends, look at: http://www.simplyhired.com/a/jobtrends/trend/q-asp.net+programmer%2Cruby+programmer%2Clamp+programmer [image: Asp.net Programmer, Ruby Programmer, Lamp Programmer trends graph] There is a down trend which is not good, I don't know why the data stops a year ago It may have all changed in the last year? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Scott Barnes scott.bar...@gmail.com wrote: In 2008 there was a tipping point in the .NET scene overall and the timing was likely due to the post .NET adoption peak or high as to grow further meant you had to go to outlying areas of the market. It also had to do with the amount of investment and evangelism that went on in Academic institutions also dropped significantly (due to scenarios where teachers didn't like ASP.NET or WinForms due to their blurring of basic OOP principles mixed with costs associated - compared to python, java, php, etc) Microsoft decided to react and it's really been a 3-5 year campaign on driving adoption in the outlying areas - specifically going after pretty much the entire landscape(s) of competitors at once ... i mean if they aren't fighting and campaigning to convince you all that Google is the enemy then its Apple and when not Apple it's back to the LAMP is evil etc. The problem is they've lost perspective by shifting everyone from strategies that start and finish on the fiscal year time lines they in turn have created this area of uncertainty where you have a lot of .NET coders out there writing WinForms, WebForms, Asp MVC, WPF, Silverlight etc all being told they really need to stop doing this and go with HTML5/JS for Windows8/Wp8 or C++ for more intensive scenarios
RE: Future of .NET
The MS Team have released a pretty comprehensive White Paper talking about the role of .NET: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archive/2013/07/16/responsible-for-a-million-dollar-software-project-but-don-t-know-where-to-start.aspx http://www.microsoft.com/net/nettechnologyguidance http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9832707 (pdf) Cheers Andrew Coates, ME, MCPD, MCSD MCTS, Developer Evangelist, Microsoft, 1 Epping Road, NORTH RYDE NSW 2113 Ph: +61 (2) 9870 2719 * Mob +61 (416) 134 993 * Fax: +61 (2) 9870 2400 * http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat Sent from the new Officehttp://office.com/preview From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Michael Ridland Sent: Thursday, 22 August 2013 10:39 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: Future of .NET Hi It's clear that in the Start-up and Web communities the choice for development platforms is not .NET. Does this mean eventually this will filter up? I'm wondering what this means for the future of .NET? I once had a developer say .NET is the new COBOL.
RE: Future of .NET
Michael,What is the development platform of choice for the cool kids you are seeing?Just wondering.Rob- Original Message - From: Michael Ridland [mailto:rid...@gmail.com] To: ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com Sent: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:38:49 +1000 Subject: Future of .NET HiIt's clear that in the Start-up and Web communities the choice for development platforms is not .NET.Does this mean eventually this will filter up? I'm wondering what this means for the future of .NET? I once had a developer say .NET is the new COBOL.
Re: Future of .NET
Python / Django / Rails. I think you would be hard press for find a .NET job on AngelList. Well actually I can see 53 companies out of 3916 that use asp.net. https://angel.co/ifttt/jobs I'm not bashing just noting my observations and wanted opinions? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Rob Andrew rand...@voyageconnect.comwrote: Michael, What is the development platform of choice for the cool kids you are seeing? Just wondering. Rob *- Original Message -* *From:* Michael Ridland [mailto:rid...@gmail.com] *To:* ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com *Sent:* Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:38:49 +1000 *Subject:* Future of .NET Hi It's clear that in the Start-up and Web communities the choice for development platforms is not .NET. Does this mean eventually this will filter up? I'm wondering what this means for the future of .NET? I once had a developer say .NET is the new COBOL.
Re: Future of .NET
Does this eventually filter into enterprise and if so what does that mean for .NET? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Michael Ridland rid...@gmail.com wrote: Python / Django / Rails. I think you would be hard press for find a .NET job on AngelList. Well actually I can see 53 companies out of 3916 that use asp.net. https://angel.co/ifttt/jobs I'm not bashing just noting my observations and wanted opinions? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Rob Andrew rand...@voyageconnect.comwrote: Michael, What is the development platform of choice for the cool kids you are seeing? Just wondering. Rob *- Original Message -* *From:* Michael Ridland [mailto:rid...@gmail.com] *To:* ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com *Sent:* Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:38:49 +1000 *Subject:* Future of .NET Hi It's clear that in the Start-up and Web communities the choice for development platforms is not .NET. Does this mean eventually this will filter up? I'm wondering what this means for the future of .NET? I once had a developer say .NET is the new COBOL.
Re: Future of .NET
Another non-.NET opinion, admittedly maily because he want's a fully open source solution: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2013/03/why-ruby.html -- Regards, Mark Hurd, B.Sc.(Ma.)(Hons.)
Re: Future of .NET
I don't think this will necessarily filter into the enterprise in a big. .NET and Java are both really strong in enterprise, as are Oracle and SQL Server but not that strong in startups. Enterprise and startups have different requirements. On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Michael Ridland rid...@gmail.com wrote: Does this eventually filter into enterprise and if so what does that mean for .NET? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Michael Ridland rid...@gmail.comwrote: Python / Django / Rails. I think you would be hard press for find a .NET job on AngelList. Well actually I can see 53 companies out of 3916 that use asp.net. https://angel.co/ifttt/jobs I'm not bashing just noting my observations and wanted opinions? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Rob Andrew rand...@voyageconnect.comwrote: Michael, What is the development platform of choice for the cool kids you are seeing? Just wondering. Rob *- Original Message -* *From:* Michael Ridland [mailto:rid...@gmail.com] *To:* ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com *Sent:* Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:38:49 +1000 *Subject:* Future of .NET Hi It's clear that in the Start-up and Web communities the choice for development platforms is not .NET. Does this mean eventually this will filter up? I'm wondering what this means for the future of .NET? I once had a developer say .NET is the new COBOL.
Re: Future of .NET
Microsoft are trying to fix the startup thing with Biz Spark ( http://www.microsoft.com/bizspark/) But when they make super stuff ups like the non support of Silverlight you do have ask what the @#$%^* they are doing ! On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Craig van Nieuwkerk crai...@gmail.comwrote: I don't think this will necessarily filter into the enterprise in a big. .NET and Java are both really strong in enterprise, as are Oracle and SQL Server but not that strong in startups. Enterprise and startups have different requirements. On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Michael Ridland rid...@gmail.comwrote: Does this eventually filter into enterprise and if so what does that mean for .NET? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Michael Ridland rid...@gmail.comwrote: Python / Django / Rails. I think you would be hard press for find a .NET job on AngelList. Well actually I can see 53 companies out of 3916 that use asp.net. https://angel.co/ifttt/jobs I'm not bashing just noting my observations and wanted opinions? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Rob Andrew rand...@voyageconnect.comwrote: Michael, What is the development platform of choice for the cool kids you are seeing? Just wondering. Rob *- Original Message -* *From:* Michael Ridland [mailto:rid...@gmail.com] *To:* ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com *Sent:* Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:38:49 +1000 *Subject:* Future of .NET Hi It's clear that in the Start-up and Web communities the choice for development platforms is not .NET. Does this mean eventually this will filter up? I'm wondering what this means for the future of .NET? I once had a developer say .NET is the new COBOL.
Re: Future of .NET
I don't think Microsoft was ever popular with the Startup community. The last time I did anything in that area LAMP was all the rage. I have one mate in the Start-Up community who has used ASP.NET MVC on a project, and said it stacks up okay against Rails. But he hated Entity Framework (he said he wasted days trying to get it working properly). He's since moved on to using Google's Go progamming language. Certainly I like the direction Microsoft is going by cherry picking the best out of other technologies (e.g. lamda expressions, dynamic language run-time, and MVC). Compiler as a Service also seems to have interesting possibilities. It's certainly not growing stale like COBOL. It's when I have to help out with Java projects (despite some good libraries), it feels like a time-warp back to .Net 2.0 days. On 22 August 2013 09:47, Greg Harris harris.gre...@gmail.com wrote: Microsoft are trying to fix the startup thing with Biz Spark ( http://www.microsoft.com/bizspark/) But when they make super stuff ups like the non support of Silverlight you do have ask what the @#$%^* they are doing ! On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Craig van Nieuwkerk crai...@gmail.comwrote: I don't think this will necessarily filter into the enterprise in a big. .NET and Java are both really strong in enterprise, as are Oracle and SQL Server but not that strong in startups. Enterprise and startups have different requirements. On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Michael Ridland rid...@gmail.comwrote: Does this eventually filter into enterprise and if so what does that mean for .NET? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Michael Ridland rid...@gmail.comwrote: Python / Django / Rails. I think you would be hard press for find a .NET job on AngelList. Well actually I can see 53 companies out of 3916 that use asp.net. https://angel.co/ifttt/jobs I'm not bashing just noting my observations and wanted opinions? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Rob Andrew rand...@voyageconnect.com wrote: Michael, What is the development platform of choice for the cool kids you are seeing? Just wondering. Rob *- Original Message -* *From:* Michael Ridland [mailto:rid...@gmail.com] *To:* ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com *Sent:* Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:38:49 +1000 *Subject:* Future of .NET Hi It's clear that in the Start-up and Web communities the choice for development platforms is not .NET. Does this mean eventually this will filter up? I'm wondering what this means for the future of .NET? I once had a developer say .NET is the new COBOL.
Re: Future of .NET
Interesting what you say about Go. From what I can tell Ruby/Python and LAMP stack are all a bit 2010 for the really cool kids so they are moving to Go. It's a hipster thing. On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:17 PM, Nathan Schultz milish...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think Microsoft was ever popular with the Startup community. The last time I did anything in that area LAMP was all the rage. I have one mate in the Start-Up community who has used ASP.NET MVC on a project, and said it stacks up okay against Rails. But he hated Entity Framework (he said he wasted days trying to get it working properly). He's since moved on to using Google's Go progamming language. Certainly I like the direction Microsoft is going by cherry picking the best out of other technologies (e.g. lamda expressions, dynamic language run-time, and MVC). Compiler as a Service also seems to have interesting possibilities. It's certainly not growing stale like COBOL. It's when I have to help out with Java projects (despite some good libraries), it feels like a time-warp back to .Net 2.0 days. On 22 August 2013 09:47, Greg Harris harris.gre...@gmail.com wrote: Microsoft are trying to fix the startup thing with Biz Spark ( http://www.microsoft.com/bizspark/) But when they make super stuff ups like the non support of Silverlight you do have ask what the @#$%^* they are doing ! On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Craig van Nieuwkerk crai...@gmail.comwrote: I don't think this will necessarily filter into the enterprise in a big. .NET and Java are both really strong in enterprise, as are Oracle and SQL Server but not that strong in startups. Enterprise and startups have different requirements. On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Michael Ridland rid...@gmail.comwrote: Does this eventually filter into enterprise and if so what does that mean for .NET? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Michael Ridland rid...@gmail.comwrote: Python / Django / Rails. I think you would be hard press for find a .NET job on AngelList. Well actually I can see 53 companies out of 3916 that use asp.net. https://angel.co/ifttt/jobs I'm not bashing just noting my observations and wanted opinions? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Rob Andrew rand...@voyageconnect.com wrote: Michael, What is the development platform of choice for the cool kids you are seeing? Just wondering. Rob *- Original Message -* *From:* Michael Ridland [mailto:rid...@gmail.com] *To:* ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com *Sent:* Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:38:49 +1000 *Subject:* Future of .NET Hi It's clear that in the Start-up and Web communities the choice for development platforms is not .NET. Does this mean eventually this will filter up? I'm wondering what this means for the future of .NET? I once had a developer say .NET is the new COBOL.
Re: Future of .NET
I was told at Uni (1980) that COBOL was going to die real soon... Since then COBOL paid off all of my first mortgage. It was not until about 1994 that COBOL stopped earning for me and I am sure that there are a lot of people out there still paying their way with it. .NET may be on the start of a down turn, but if it is, it has a long way to go, for now I am happy to stay with .NET, but Microsoft scare me, they have to look out for what they think is best for Microsoft and we could get swept up with the good or the bad of that, we have to accept that we have little control of the ride we are on! Would other options be better, I doubt it, just different. Interesting to look at the job trends, look at: http://www.simplyhired.com/a/jobtrends/trend/q-asp.net+programmer%2Cruby+programmer%2Clamp+programmer [image: Asp.net Programmer, Ruby Programmer, Lamp Programmer trends graph] There is a down trend which is not good, I don't know why the data stops a year ago It may have all changed in the last year? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Scott Barnes scott.bar...@gmail.comwrote: In 2008 there was a tipping point in the .NET scene overall and the timing was likely due to the post .NET adoption peak or high as to grow further meant you had to go to outlying areas of the market. It also had to do with the amount of investment and evangelism that went on in Academic institutions also dropped significantly (due to scenarios where teachers didn't like ASP.NET or WinForms due to their blurring of basic OOP principles mixed with costs associated - compared to python, java, php, etc) Microsoft decided to react and it's really been a 3-5 year campaign on driving adoption in the outlying areas - specifically going after pretty much the entire landscape(s) of competitors at once ... i mean if they aren't fighting and campaigning to convince you all that Google is the enemy then its Apple and when not Apple it's back to the LAMP is evil etc. The problem is they've lost perspective by shifting everyone from strategies that start and finish on the fiscal year time lines they in turn have created this area of uncertainty where you have a lot of .NET coders out there writing WinForms, WebForms, Asp MVC, WPF, Silverlight etc all being told they really need to stop doing this and go with HTML5/JS for Windows8/Wp8 or C++ for more intensive scenarios. If you then still reject they then concede XAML/C# is fine but you still need to write code differently because even the name spaces are different (yet you can't figure out why given well..they behave and act the same as their counterparts...) which you then realise that was a forcing function on adopting new over old. By not giving a transition period between 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 to now.. they've basically pushed the crowd of .NET further away from a sustaining model of adoption. It then asks everyone who are loyal to the brands and technology that comes out from Microsoft to consider two things - Can you trust us to stick this strategy out given our past and Have you really considered us against the alternative? If this were a political party soliciting you for your vote its as if they've told you vote for us and will probably tax you more can't say for sure :) So yeah, adoption cycles are going to fluctuate around what happens post Winforms/Wpf of past... I'd wager that gaming industry will influence the outcome given they have a lot more to win/loose around this entire uncertainty (given device/desktop/console buying power is massive). That's where a lot of start-ups occupy today - gaming/kickstarter style space. --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Andrew McGrath andrew.mcgr...@workslink.com.au wrote: .NET 2.0 coding still has some uses Had to stick to it to create a .NET IDE for the webusing Visual Web GUI (essentially .NET WinForms that runs via your browser) and Xamarin. Can now write .NET code once and run it on web, natively on Android, iOS, Mac and PCuseful in some scenarios. AFAIK, still need native on mobile devices to be able to interact with SQLite as I don't think Javascript + PhoneGap gives you that. -- *From*: Nathan Schultz milish...@gmail.com *Sent*: Thursday, August 22, 2013 1:17 PM *To*: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com *Subject*: Re: Future of .NET I don't think Microsoft was ever popular with the Startup community. The last time I did anything in that area LAMP was all the rage. I have one mate in the Start-Up community who has used ASP.NET MVC on a project, and said it stacks up okay against Rails. But he hated Entity Framework (he said he wasted days trying to get it working properly). He's since moved on to using Google's Go progamming language. Certainly I like the direction Microsoft is going by cherry picking the best out of other technologies (e.g. lamda expressions, dynamic
Re: Future of .NET
The mono project and xamarin seem to be doing great things with and for .net. Apart from some bright spots, devdiv have jumped the shark. On 22 Aug 2013 15:16, Greg Harris harris.gre...@gmail.com wrote: I was told at Uni (1980) that COBOL was going to die real soon... Since then COBOL paid off all of my first mortgage. It was not until about 1994 that COBOL stopped earning for me and I am sure that there are a lot of people out there still paying their way with it. .NET may be on the start of a down turn, but if it is, it has a long way to go, for now I am happy to stay with .NET, but Microsoft scare me, they have to look out for what they think is best for Microsoft and we could get swept up with the good or the bad of that, we have to accept that we have little control of the ride we are on! Would other options be better, I doubt it, just different. Interesting to look at the job trends, look at: http://www.simplyhired.com/a/jobtrends/trend/q-asp.net+programmer%2Cruby+programmer%2Clamp+programmer [image: Asp.net Programmer, Ruby Programmer, Lamp Programmer trends graph] There is a down trend which is not good, I don't know why the data stops a year ago It may have all changed in the last year? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Scott Barnes scott.bar...@gmail.comwrote: In 2008 there was a tipping point in the .NET scene overall and the timing was likely due to the post .NET adoption peak or high as to grow further meant you had to go to outlying areas of the market. It also had to do with the amount of investment and evangelism that went on in Academic institutions also dropped significantly (due to scenarios where teachers didn't like ASP.NET or WinForms due to their blurring of basic OOP principles mixed with costs associated - compared to python, java, php, etc) Microsoft decided to react and it's really been a 3-5 year campaign on driving adoption in the outlying areas - specifically going after pretty much the entire landscape(s) of competitors at once ... i mean if they aren't fighting and campaigning to convince you all that Google is the enemy then its Apple and when not Apple it's back to the LAMP is evil etc. The problem is they've lost perspective by shifting everyone from strategies that start and finish on the fiscal year time lines they in turn have created this area of uncertainty where you have a lot of .NET coders out there writing WinForms, WebForms, Asp MVC, WPF, Silverlight etc all being told they really need to stop doing this and go with HTML5/JS for Windows8/Wp8 or C++ for more intensive scenarios. If you then still reject they then concede XAML/C# is fine but you still need to write code differently because even the name spaces are different (yet you can't figure out why given well..they behave and act the same as their counterparts...) which you then realise that was a forcing function on adopting new over old. By not giving a transition period between 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 to now.. they've basically pushed the crowd of .NET further away from a sustaining model of adoption. It then asks everyone who are loyal to the brands and technology that comes out from Microsoft to consider two things - Can you trust us to stick this strategy out given our past and Have you really considered us against the alternative? If this were a political party soliciting you for your vote its as if they've told you vote for us and will probably tax you more can't say for sure :) So yeah, adoption cycles are going to fluctuate around what happens post Winforms/Wpf of past... I'd wager that gaming industry will influence the outcome given they have a lot more to win/loose around this entire uncertainty (given device/desktop/console buying power is massive). That's where a lot of start-ups occupy today - gaming/kickstarter style space. --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Andrew McGrath andrew.mcgr...@workslink.com.au wrote: .NET 2.0 coding still has some uses Had to stick to it to create a .NET IDE for the webusing Visual Web GUI (essentially .NET WinForms that runs via your browser) and Xamarin. Can now write .NET code once and run it on web, natively on Android, iOS, Mac and PCuseful in some scenarios. AFAIK, still need native on mobile devices to be able to interact with SQLite as I don't think Javascript + PhoneGap gives you that. -- *From*: Nathan Schultz milish...@gmail.com *Sent*: Thursday, August 22, 2013 1:17 PM *To*: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com *Subject*: Re: Future of .NET I don't think Microsoft was ever popular with the Startup community. The last time I did anything in that area LAMP was all the rage. I have one mate in the Start-Up community who has used ASP.NET MVC on a project, and said it stacks up okay against Rails. But he hated Entity Framework (he said he wasted days trying to get
Re: Future of .NET
Dont know what you're talk about with this. 'Apart from some bright spots, devdiv have jumped the shark.' On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Joseph Cooney joseph.coo...@gmail.comwrote: The mono project and xamarin seem to be doing great things with and for .net. Apart from some bright spots, devdiv have jumped the shark. On 22 Aug 2013 15:16, Greg Harris harris.gre...@gmail.com wrote: I was told at Uni (1980) that COBOL was going to die real soon... Since then COBOL paid off all of my first mortgage. It was not until about 1994 that COBOL stopped earning for me and I am sure that there are a lot of people out there still paying their way with it. .NET may be on the start of a down turn, but if it is, it has a long way to go, for now I am happy to stay with .NET, but Microsoft scare me, they have to look out for what they think is best for Microsoft and we could get swept up with the good or the bad of that, we have to accept that we have little control of the ride we are on! Would other options be better, I doubt it, just different. Interesting to look at the job trends, look at: http://www.simplyhired.com/a/jobtrends/trend/q-asp.net+programmer%2Cruby+programmer%2Clamp+programmer [image: Asp.net Programmer, Ruby Programmer, Lamp Programmer trends graph] There is a down trend which is not good, I don't know why the data stops a year ago It may have all changed in the last year? On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Scott Barnes scott.bar...@gmail.comwrote: In 2008 there was a tipping point in the .NET scene overall and the timing was likely due to the post .NET adoption peak or high as to grow further meant you had to go to outlying areas of the market. It also had to do with the amount of investment and evangelism that went on in Academic institutions also dropped significantly (due to scenarios where teachers didn't like ASP.NET or WinForms due to their blurring of basic OOP principles mixed with costs associated - compared to python, java, php, etc) Microsoft decided to react and it's really been a 3-5 year campaign on driving adoption in the outlying areas - specifically going after pretty much the entire landscape(s) of competitors at once ... i mean if they aren't fighting and campaigning to convince you all that Google is the enemy then its Apple and when not Apple it's back to the LAMP is evil etc. The problem is they've lost perspective by shifting everyone from strategies that start and finish on the fiscal year time lines they in turn have created this area of uncertainty where you have a lot of .NET coders out there writing WinForms, WebForms, Asp MVC, WPF, Silverlight etc all being told they really need to stop doing this and go with HTML5/JS for Windows8/Wp8 or C++ for more intensive scenarios. If you then still reject they then concede XAML/C# is fine but you still need to write code differently because even the name spaces are different (yet you can't figure out why given well..they behave and act the same as their counterparts...) which you then realise that was a forcing function on adopting new over old. By not giving a transition period between 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 to now.. they've basically pushed the crowd of .NET further away from a sustaining model of adoption. It then asks everyone who are loyal to the brands and technology that comes out from Microsoft to consider two things - Can you trust us to stick this strategy out given our past and Have you really considered us against the alternative? If this were a political party soliciting you for your vote its as if they've told you vote for us and will probably tax you more can't say for sure :) So yeah, adoption cycles are going to fluctuate around what happens post Winforms/Wpf of past... I'd wager that gaming industry will influence the outcome given they have a lot more to win/loose around this entire uncertainty (given device/desktop/console buying power is massive). That's where a lot of start-ups occupy today - gaming/kickstarter style space. --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Andrew McGrath andrew.mcgr...@workslink.com.au wrote: .NET 2.0 coding still has some uses Had to stick to it to create a .NET IDE for the webusing Visual Web GUI (essentially .NET WinForms that runs via your browser) and Xamarin. Can now write .NET code once and run it on web, natively on Android, iOS, Mac and PCuseful in some scenarios. AFAIK, still need native on mobile devices to be able to interact with SQLite as I don't think Javascript + PhoneGap gives you that. -- *From*: Nathan Schultz milish...@gmail.com *Sent*: Thursday, August 22, 2013 1:17 PM *To*: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com *Subject*: Re: Future of .NET I don't think Microsoft was ever popular with the Startup community. The last time I did anything in that area LAMP was all the rage. I have
RE: Future of .NET
Fool me once - shame on you. Fool me twice.you know the rest. On 22 Aug 2013 15:36, David Kean david.k...@microsoft.com wrote: Have faith my friends. Have faith. Do not confuse the strategy of a single p l of that of the company or that of DevDiv. ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Joseph Cooney *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:22 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: Future of .NET ** ** The mono project and xamarin seem to be doing great things with and for .net. Apart from some bright spots, devdiv have jumped the shark. On 22 Aug 2013 15:16, Greg Harris harris.gre...@gmail.com wrote: I was told at Uni (1980) that COBOL was going to die real soon... Since then COBOL paid off all of my first mortgage. It was not until about 1994 that COBOL stopped earning for me and I am sure that there are a lot of people out there still paying their way with it. .NET may be on the start of a down turn, but if it is, it has a long way to go, for now I am happy to stay with .NET, but Microsoft scare me, they have to look out for what they think is best for Microsoft and we could get swept up with the good or the bad of that, we have to accept that we have little control of the ride we are on! Would other options be better, I doubt it, just different. ** ** Interesting to look at the job trends, look at: http://www.simplyhired.com/a/jobtrends/trend/q-asp.net+programmer%2Cruby+programmer%2Clamp+programmer ** ** [image: Asp.net Programmer, Ruby Programmer, Lamp Programmer trends graph] ** ** There is a down trend which is not good, I don't know why the data stops a year ago It may have all changed in the last year? ** ** On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Scott Barnes scott.bar...@gmail.com wrote: In 2008 there was a tipping point in the .NET scene overall and the timing was likely due to the post .NET adoption peak or high as to grow further meant you had to go to outlying areas of the market. It also had to do with the amount of investment and evangelism that went on in Academic institutions also dropped significantly (due to scenarios where teachers didn't like ASP.NET or WinForms due to their blurring of basic OOP principles mixed with costs associated - compared to python, java, php, etc) ** ** Microsoft decided to react and it's really been a 3-5 year campaign on driving adoption in the outlying areas - specifically going after pretty much the entire landscape(s) of competitors at once ... i mean if they aren't fighting and campaigning to convince you all that Google is the enemy then its Apple and when not Apple it's back to the LAMP is evil etc. ** ** The problem is they've lost perspective by shifting everyone from strategies that start and finish on the fiscal year time lines they in turn have created this area of uncertainty where you have a lot of .NET coders out there writing WinForms, WebForms, Asp MVC, WPF, Silverlight etc all being told they really need to stop doing this and go with HTML5/JS for Windows8/Wp8 or C++ for more intensive scenarios. If you then still reject they then concede XAML/C# is fine but you still need to write code differently because even the name spaces are different (yet you can't figure out why given well..they behave and act the same as their counterparts...) which you then realise that was a forcing function on adopting new over old. By not giving a transition period between 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 to now.. they've basically pushed the crowd of .NET further away from a sustaining model of adoption. It then asks everyone who are loyal to the brands and technology that comes out from Microsoft to consider two things - Can you trust us to stick this strategy out given our past and Have you really considered us against the alternative? If this were a political party soliciting you for your vote its as if they've told you vote for us and will probably tax you more can't say for sure :) So yeah, adoption cycles are going to fluctuate around what happens post Winforms/Wpf of past... I'd wager that gaming industry will influence the outcome given they have a lot more to win/loose around this entire uncertainty (given device/desktop/console buying power is massive). ** ** That's where a lot of start-ups occupy today - gaming/kickstarter style space. ** ** ** ** ** ** --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com ** ** On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Andrew McGrath andrew.mcgr...@workslink.com.au wrote: .NET 2.0 coding still has some uses ** ** Had to stick to it to create a .NET IDE for the webusing Visual Web GUI (essentially .NET WinForms that runs via your browser) and Xamarin.*** * ** ** Can now write .NET code once and run it on web, natively on Android, iOS, Mac and PC
