Re: Win8 Release Preview (addendum)
The challenge: To boot the oldest os on contemporary hardware. :) On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Greg Keogh g...@mira.net wrote: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/05/18/creating-the-windows-8-user-experience.aspx Creating the Windows 8 user experience This is an interesting history lesson and explanation of where they think they’re headed with Win8. I’m far more sympathetic after reading that. The screen shots take me back. I’d love to run Windows 3.1 on my current PC and see how it performs (sadly I don’t think it would install or run due to hardware changes). I think I still have an MSDN CDs from the mid 90s with old versions on it. Maybe Win95 will install and run in a VM. Greg -- Meski http://courteous.ly/aAOZcv Going to Starbucks for coffee is like going to prison for sex. Sure, you'll get it, but it's going to be rough - Adam Hills
RE: Win8 Release Preview (addendum)
The challenge: To boot the oldest os on contemporary hardware. :) It's too easy to cheat with VMs these days. I got Win95B OSR2 running overnight in a VMWare Player. I had to download a DOS 6.22 book disk IMG file, mount that in the VM to get a mock CD drive, run setup from the 1998 vintage CD and get Win95 installed. Then try to remember how to get networking going, which took an hour of stuffing around and only succeeded thanks to advice on the VMWare site about which fake adapter to install, then I had to configure TCP/IP gateway etc. Networking is going, but Internet Explorer 3.0 is hopeless with modern web sites and can only display the simplest html pages. Win95 sure does boot fast though! Greg
RE: Win8 Release Preview (addendum)
Wasn't that many years ago I had 3.1 running of a USB on my tablet PC. Managed to play solitaire on it ;) But I missed Norton's desktop. Sadly last time I tried the USB stick it didn't boot to it properly. But yes it was a fast boot |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Keogh |Sent: Monday, 11 June 2012 12:19 PM |To: 'ozDotNet' |Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview (addendum) | |http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/05/18/creating-the-windows-8-user- |experience.aspx | |Creating the Windows 8 user experience | | | |This is an interesting history lesson and explanation of where they think they're |headed with Win8. I'm far more sympathetic after reading that. | | | |The screen shots take me back. I'd love to run Windows 3.1 on my current PC and |see how it performs (sadly I don't think it would install or run due to hardware |changes). I think I still have an MSDN CDs from the mid 90s with old versions on |it. Maybe Win95 will install and run in a VM. | | | |Greg
RE: Win8 Release Preview (addendum)
Here's Win3.11 :) Also have WinNT4, Win95, Win98, WinME, Win2k (and Win3.51 somewhere) -Original Message- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy Sent: Tuesday, 12 June 2012 11:41 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview (addendum) Wasn't that many years ago I had 3.1 running of a USB on my tablet PC. Managed to play solitaire on it ;) But I missed Norton's desktop. Sadly last time I tried the USB stick it didn't boot to it properly. But yes it was a fast boot |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:|boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Keogh |Sent: Monday, 11 June 2012 12:19 PM |To: 'ozDotNet' |Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview (addendum) | |http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/05/18/creating-the-windows-8-us |er- |experience.aspx | |Creating the Windows 8 user experience | | | |This is an interesting history lesson and explanation of where they |think they're |headed with Win8. I'm far more sympathetic after reading that. | | | |The screen shots take me back. I'd love to run Windows 3.1 on my |current PC and |see how it performs (sadly I don't think it would install or run due to hardware |changes). I think I still have an MSDN CDs from the mid 90s with old versions on |it. Maybe Win95 will install and run in a VM. | | | |Greg inline: Picture (Device Independent Bitmap) 1.jpg
Re: Win8 Release Preview (addendum)
☑ Authentically Digital ☑ Alive in Motion (kind of) ☑ Content Not Chrome ☑ Clean, Open and Fast etc.. Win 3.11 in its day could have easily been passed off as metro under the design principles. So did we move forward or backwards... *burp* --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: Here's Win3.11 J Also have WinNT4, Win95, Win98, WinME, Win2k (and Win3.51 somewhere) -Original Message- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.comozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy Sent: Tuesday, 12 June 2012 11:41 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview (addendum) Wasn't that many years ago I had 3.1 running of a USB on my tablet PC. Managed to play solitaire on it ;) But I missed Norton's desktop. Sadly last time I tried the USB stick it didn't boot to it properly. But yes it was a fast boot |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Keogh |Sent: Monday, 11 June 2012 12:19 PM |To: 'ozDotNet' |Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview (addendum) | |http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/05/18/creating-the-windows-8-us |er- |experience.aspx | |Creating the Windows 8 user experience | | | |This is an interesting history lesson and explanation of where they |think they're |headed with Win8. I'm far more sympathetic after reading that. | | | |The screen shots take me back. I'd love to run Windows 3.1 on my |current PC and |see how it performs (sadly I don't think it would install or run due to hardware |changes). I think I still have an MSDN CDs from the mid 90s with old versions on |it. Maybe Win95 will install and run in a VM. | | | |Greg Picture (Device Independent Bitmap) 1.jpg
Re: Win8 Release Preview (addendum)
ROFL He'll be defending it soon... On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Scott Barnes scott.bar...@gmail.com wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome :P --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Greg Keogh g...@mira.net wrote: FYI http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/final-thoughts-on-windows-8-a-design-disaster/20706 This article from June mirrors most of my initial feelings. Especially when he says “Even at this late stage in the game, it still feels to me like Windows 8 is two operating systems unceremoniously bolted together” and “It’s not just a massive gamble — it’s too much of a gamble”. After more days of fiddling with Win8 I’m getting won over yet, except perhaps for a few usability improvements. We’ll see... Greg
RE: Win8 Release Preview (addendum)
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/05/18/creating-the-windows-8-user-ex perience.aspx Creating the Windows 8 user experience This is an interesting history lesson and explanation of where they think they're headed with Win8. I'm far more sympathetic after reading that. The screen shots take me back. I'd love to run Windows 3.1 on my current PC and see how it performs (sadly I don't think it would install or run due to hardware changes). I think I still have an MSDN CDs from the mid 90s with old versions on it. Maybe Win95 will install and run in a VM. Greg
Win8 Release Preview (addendum)
FYI http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/final-thoughts-on-windows-8-a-design-disa ster/20706 This article from June mirrors most of my initial feelings. Especially when he says Even at this late stage in the game, it still feels to me like Windows 8 is two operating systems unceremoniously bolted together and It's not just a massive gamble - it's too much of a gamble. After more days of fiddling with Win8 I'm getting won over yet, except perhaps for a few usability improvements. We'll see... Greg
Re: Win8 Release Preview (addendum)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome :P --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Greg Keogh g...@mira.net wrote: FYI http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/final-thoughts-on-windows-8-a-design-disaster/20706 ** ** This article from June mirrors most of my initial feelings. Especially when he says “Even at this late stage in the game, it still feels to me like Windows 8 is two operating systems unceremoniously bolted together” and “It’s not just a massive gamble — it’s too much of a gamble”. ** ** After more days of fiddling with Win8 I’m getting won over yet, except perhaps for a few usability improvements. We’ll see... ** ** Greg
win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview)
Open people on win 8, then search for a non-existing name , eg ## or ** or something so as the search results come up empty. Now using only keyboard and mouse get back to displaying the entire list without having to enter in a valid search first (that is navigate back to the people list). Post back saying how long it took you, how many different combinations you tried first ;) BTW: how do you do it with gestures ? Oh, and is the weather app working for anyone? I've tried everything, even a fresh install of the preview and it still just tries to start then hangs. I could swear it was working yesterday
Re: win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview)
Good reason to upgrade to windows 8. Your machine can go faster. I think they have increased the Windows Rating maximum. My CPU rates at 8.6, and someone pointed out to me today that the max used to be like 7.9. :) On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: Search results empty, then try to get back to full list. Or even search results just a few, then try to get to full list |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 5:29 PM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: RE: win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview) | |Hmm maybe it was just me but I didn't have an issue with you scenario: | |Keyboard: type search, enter to bring up search results, alt-tab to go people app, |tab and/or direction keys to navigate through search results | |Gestures: pinch the list of people, jump to the first letter of the name and |hopefully you're close enough, else, swipe a bit | |Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone |Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this |email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose |or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not |guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions |expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built |to Roam Pty Ltd. | | |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 4:28 PM |To: 'ozDotNet' |Subject: win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview) | |Open people on win 8, then search for a non-existing name , eg ## or ** or |something so as the search results come up empty. Now using only keyboard and |mouse get back to displaying the entire list without having to enter in a valid |search first (that is navigate back to the people list). Post back saying how long it |took you, how many different combinations you tried first ;) | |BTW: how do you do it with gestures ? | |Oh, and is the weather app working for anyone? I've tried everything, even a |fresh install of the preview and it still just tries to start then hangs. I could swear it |was working yesterday |
RE: win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview)
Good point - I actually saw that on the weekend when I was searching something. They must have received that feedback already, so would imagine it'll get addressed Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd. -Original Message- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 5:43 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview) Search results empty, then try to get back to full list. Or even search results just a few, then try to get to full list |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 5:29 PM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: RE: win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview) | |Hmm maybe it was just me but I didn't have an issue with you scenario: | |Keyboard: type search, enter to bring up search results, alt-tab to go |people app, tab and/or direction keys to navigate through search |results | |Gestures: pinch the list of people, jump to the first letter of the |name and hopefully you're close enough, else, swipe a bit | |Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone |Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in |this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you |may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built |to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or |attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own |and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd. | | |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 4:28 PM |To: 'ozDotNet' |Subject: win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview) | |Open people on win 8, then search for a non-existing name , eg ## or |** or something so as the search results come up empty. Now using only |keyboard and mouse get back to displaying the entire list without |having to enter in a valid search first (that is navigate back to the |people list). Post back saying how long it took you, how many |different combinations you tried first ;) | |BTW: how do you do it with gestures ? | |Oh, and is the weather app working for anyone? I've tried everything, |even a fresh install of the preview and it still just tries to start |then hangs. I could swear it was working yesterday |
RE: win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview)
;) Win + Z will show the app bar from the search results even though right click of the mouse won't. So it probably is a bug. I also noticed in the maps app you can't right click to select directions from here/to here because right click is the app bar :S The maps in the browser is a better experience. And on apps where there's an app bar from top and bottom, eg finance or sports then the app bar shows but then automatically hides. Similarly in mail and calendar if I do a Win+C, select settings and then accounts, the account pane shows and automatically hides. Not sure if this is just a keyboard/mouse UI bug, VMWare, or preview means pre beta ;) |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 7:09 PM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: RE: win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview) | |Good point - I actually saw that on the weekend when I was searching something. |They must have received that feedback already, so would imagine it'll get |addressed | |Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone |Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this |email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose |or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not |guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions |expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built |to Roam Pty Ltd. | | |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 5:43 PM |To: 'ozDotNet' |Subject: RE: win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview) | |Search results empty, then try to get back to full list. Or even search results just a |few, then try to get to full list | ||-Original Message- ||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- ||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph ||Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 5:29 PM ||To: ozDotNet ||Subject: RE: win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview) || ||Hmm maybe it was just me but I didn't have an issue with you scenario: || ||Keyboard: type search, enter to bring up search results, alt-tab to go ||people app, tab and/or direction keys to navigate through search ||results || ||Gestures: pinch the list of people, jump to the first letter of the ||name and hopefully you're close enough, else, swipe a bit || ||Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone ||Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in ||this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you ||may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built ||to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or ||attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own ||and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd. || || ||-Original Message- ||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- ||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy ||Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 4:28 PM ||To: 'ozDotNet' ||Subject: win 8 challenge (was RE: Win8 Release Preview) || ||Open people on win 8, then search for a non-existing name , eg ## or ||** or something so as the search results come up empty. Now using only ||keyboard and mouse get back to displaying the entire list without ||having to enter in a valid search first (that is navigate back to the ||people list). Post back saying how long it took you, how many ||different combinations you tried first ;) || ||BTW: how do you do it with gestures ? || ||Oh, and is the weather app working for anyone? I've tried everything, ||even a fresh install of the preview and it still just tries to start ||then hangs. I could swear it was working yesterday || |
Re: Win8 Release Preview
I said wp7 would fail in the first three years of its birth. I said Silverlight was ear marked for depreciation along side WPF and now I say Win8 will fail in consumer uptake. WP7 has been cancelled?
RE: Win8 Release Preview
sorry Greg, you indicated that you thought it's more confusing now, I completely disagree as the metro guidelines are very strong) A web search for Windows 8 design guidelines produces some possibly useful information, and some of it is frightening. Where are the technical guidelines for developers? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh464920.aspx From this, I can understand that the points are admirable and must be the result of vast amounts of research into how our eyes and brains work: clear, clean, touch, scaling, charms, tiles, roaming, suspend, etc. It all generally makes ergonomic and usability sense. Yes it's all certainly an admirable mission to implement these things. But I'm quite upset at the degree of sudden paradigm change and the lack of warning and advertising (even as a developer). Even if the metro guidelines are very strong, they're completely mutated away from any guidelines that have gone before. I'm extra angry simply because of the extra workload and burden of leaning yet another suddenly released standard. Development is hard enough already with a huge mess of kits, tools, operating systems, languages and patterns all competing with each other and giving me too much choice (too much choice is a bad thing!). Now I have Win8 and Metro on top if it all, just more sh*t to bog me down and waste more time futzing around in what I know will be hopeless hair-tearing frustration where everything doesn't work. So I guess I'll have to try and develop a Win8 compliant app and see how difficult it is. How anyone done this and can report from the coal face of coding? Greg
RE: Win8 Release Preview
Greg sudden paradigm change???. Metro design language has been around for at least 2 years as part of the Windows Phone development story. They've talked about it at virtually every major Microsft dev event since, including the new interface for Xbox. Whilst there are nuances to the Windows 8 story, it's still the same basic design language. Having built for both Windows Phone and now recently Windows 8 it's made easy by the awesome tooling (which you'd be used to with WPF and Silverlight) - VS and Blend. The Win8 tooling is still a little fragile, it is after all still beta. Having built on other mobile platforms and having to suffer their dev tools, Microsoft is definitely doing a great job in terms of providing the tooling and guidance to developers on how to build on their new platform. Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP - Windows Phone Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Keogh Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 8:06 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview sorry Greg, you indicated that you thought it's more confusing now, I completely disagree as the metro guidelines are very strong) A web search for Windows 8 design guidelines produces some possibly useful information, and some of it is frightening. Where are the technical guidelines for developers? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh464920.aspx From this, I can understand that the points are admirable and must be the result of vast amounts of research into how our eyes and brains work: clear, clean, touch, scaling, charms, tiles, roaming, suspend, etc. It all generally makes ergonomic and usability sense. Yes it's all certainly an admirable mission to implement these things. But I'm quite upset at the degree of sudden paradigm change and the lack of warning and advertising (even as a developer). Even if the metro guidelines are very strong, they're completely mutated away from any guidelines that have gone before. I'm extra angry simply because of the extra workload and burden of leaning yet another suddenly released standard. Development is hard enough already with a huge mess of kits, tools, operating systems, languages and patterns all competing with each other and giving me too much choice (too much choice is a bad thing!). Now I have Win8 and Metro on top if it all, just more sh*t to bog me down and waste more time futzing around in what I know will be hopeless hair-tearing frustration where everything doesn't work. So I guess I'll have to try and develop a Win8 compliant app and see how difficult it is. How anyone done this and can report from the coal face of coding? Greg
RE: Win8 Release Preview
I agree, i have found that Microsoft is changing the development paradigms so often that i have been looking at learning android/ios because i no longer see any gap differences between learning non MS development. I have had a wp7 phone for a year and still find the android better suited to my needs. Basically, anything advanced is not being done on wp7 as it restricts so much the apis. Anthony From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Keogh Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 8:06 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview sorry Greg, you indicated that you thought it's more confusing now, I completely disagree as the metro guidelines are very strong) A web search for Windows 8 design guidelines produces some possibly useful information, and some of it is frightening. Where are the technical guidelines for developers? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh464920.aspx From this, I can understand that the points are admirable and must be the result of vast amounts of research into how our eyes and brains work: clear, clean, touch, scaling, charms, tiles, roaming, suspend, etc. It all generally makes ergonomic and usability sense. Yes it's all certainly an admirable mission to implement these things. But I'm quite upset at the degree of sudden paradigm change and the lack of warning and advertising (even as a developer). Even if the metro guidelines are very strong, they're completely mutated away from any guidelines that have gone before. I'm extra angry simply because of the extra workload and burden of leaning yet another suddenly released standard. Development is hard enough already with a huge mess of kits, tools, operating systems, languages and patterns all competing with each other and giving me too much choice (too much choice is a bad thing!). Now I have Win8 and Metro on top if it all, just more sh*t to bog me down and waste more time futzing around in what I know will be hopeless hair-tearing frustration where everything doesn't work. So I guess I'll have to try and develop a Win8 compliant app and see how difficult it is. How anyone done this and can report from the coal face of coding? Greg
RE: Win8 Release Preview
Hmmm, so you mean the fact that Wp7 and win8 dev is all XAML + C# (or VB.NET) doesn't reduce the learning time? And the fact that we have state of the art application design tools doesn't make it quicker to build apps? I'm confused, what more do you want Microsoft to do. In terms of a geek phone - sure Android is always going to be a better option as it's an open platform but with it comes developer frustration and fragmentation (have you tried testing and shipping an Android app!). You also have to remember that Windows Phone trails by a year or so, and as such the apis are also trailing by that amount. I'd expect that the next drop will have some more goodness that will make our lives easier. Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP - Windows Phone Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of ifum...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 8:55 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview I agree, i have found that Microsoft is changing the development paradigms so often that i have been looking at learning android/ios because i no longer see any gap differences between learning non MS development. I have had a wp7 phone for a year and still find the android better suited to my needs. Basically, anything advanced is not being done on wp7 as it restricts so much the apis. Anthony From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com]mailto:[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Keogh Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 8:06 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview sorry Greg, you indicated that you thought it's more confusing now, I completely disagree as the metro guidelines are very strong) A web search for Windows 8 design guidelines produces some possibly useful information, and some of it is frightening. Where are the technical guidelines for developers? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh464920.aspx From this, I can understand that the points are admirable and must be the result of vast amounts of research into how our eyes and brains work: clear, clean, touch, scaling, charms, tiles, roaming, suspend, etc. It all generally makes ergonomic and usability sense. Yes it's all certainly an admirable mission to implement these things. But I'm quite upset at the degree of sudden paradigm change and the lack of warning and advertising (even as a developer). Even if the metro guidelines are very strong, they're completely mutated away from any guidelines that have gone before. I'm extra angry simply because of the extra workload and burden of leaning yet another suddenly released standard. Development is hard enough already with a huge mess of kits, tools, operating systems, languages and patterns all competing with each other and giving me too much choice (too much choice is a bad thing!). Now I have Win8 and Metro on top if it all, just more sh*t to bog me down and waste more time futzing around in what I know will be hopeless hair-tearing frustration where everything doesn't work. So I guess I'll have to try and develop a Win8 compliant app and see how difficult it is. How anyone done this and can report from the coal face of coding? Greg
RE: Win8 Release Preview
In today's age : http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/mobiles/windows-phone-to-surpass-ios-b y-2016-analyst-20120608-1zzpl.html I recontracted when the Lumia 800 came out and it addressed the embarrassing parts of my previous WP (HTC Mozart). The screen is fantastic outside, and the signal strength isn't too shabby either (gets a Telstra blue tick). I think WP 7 was a bit of a letdown, and a lot of people didn't/don't know what Mango changed. WP 7.1 (or 7.5 or whatever it is called) is more than pretty good. It does have some limitations many of us hope to see changed but the same can be said for any of the platforms. What is really nice to see is now I see WP phones in telco advertising, both printed and on television. Telstra for example sent out a business plan brochure the other day and WP had the full front page and page 2. I think come xmas time with windows 8 slates/tablets on display along with a new launch of WP8 (???) there will be a compelling market there for consumers. It ain't dead yet . ;) From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Craig van Nieuwkerk Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 8:33 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview I said wp7 would fail in the first three years of its birth. I said Silverlight was ear marked for depreciation along side WPF and now I say Win8 will fail in consumer uptake. WP7 has been cancelled?
Re: Win8 Release Preview
On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Nick Randolph n...@builttoroam.com wrote: “sudden paradigm change”???. Metro design language has been around for at least 2 years as part of the Windows Phone development story. They’ve talked about it at virtually every major Microsft dev event since, including the new interface for Xbox. Whilst there are nuances to the Windows 8 story, it’s still the same basic design language. Full screen apps are a sudden paradigm change. I mean ... I am running MSN Messenger at 2560 x 1440 and I can fit about 15 messages on the screen. And I have to keep switching back and forth between work and GigantorMessenger to see what has most recently been said. WTH. -- David Connors da...@connors.me
RE: Win8 Release Preview
|Full screen apps are a sudden paradigm change. I mean ... I am running MSN |Messenger at 2560 x 1440 and I can fit about 15 messages on the screen. And I |have to keep switching back and forth between work and GigantorMessenger to |see what has most recently been said. WTH. I think full screen is a step backwards. In mail for example I can't have two emails open, side x side. In calendar when I go to schedule an appointment I can no longer see my calendar. Docking is set to 320 px to make layout easier for developers but things like mail will now require the actual content providers to design the content to be less than 320 px wide... even mobile web pages have more space ;) The sooner metro goes to hybrid the better ! By hybrid I mean allow metro apps to run in sizeable windows, allow new navigation screens to be popups (modal or not). Ideally the developer should just have to set a couple of attributes and the same metro app that runs full screen could easily switch to running with/in windows
RE: Win8 Release Preview
Scott - design tool it may not be, but Blend is light years ahead of other platforms. w.r.t. wp7 v's win8 - yes, most likely. We'll have to wait and see on that front. Whatever the story they'll be looking to minimize the pain for developers in both short and long term. Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP - Windows Phone Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 9:43 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview State of the art? ...VS i can subscribe to but you're not talking about Blend right?...right? How do you foresee them getting out from under Silverlight-centric API's in WP7 and opt for a more uniform approach via Win8 unified platform story? as at some point the temporary place holder (Silverlight) found in wp7 has to shift back into the work they are doing with Win8 for maybe wp8 or wp9 (specifically IE10 work)? Won't this also create another issue on the horizon around API forking(s) and misalignment (much like Android). --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Nick Randolph n...@builttoroam.commailto:n...@builttoroam.com wrote: Hmmm, so you mean the fact that Wp7 and win8 dev is all XAML + C# (or VB.NEThttp://VB.NET) doesn't reduce the learning time? And the fact that we have state of the art application design tools doesn't make it quicker to build apps? I'm confused, what more do you want Microsoft to do. In terms of a geek phone - sure Android is always going to be a better option as it's an open platform but with it comes developer frustration and fragmentation (have you tried testing and shipping an Android app!). You also have to remember that Windows Phone trails by a year or so, and as such the apis are also trailing by that amount. I'd expect that the next drop will have some more goodness that will make our lives easier. Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP - Windows Phone Development | +61 412 413 425tel:%2B61%20412%20413%20425 | @btroam The information contained in this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of ifum...@gmail.commailto:ifum...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 8:55 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview I agree, i have found that Microsoft is changing the development paradigms so often that i have been looking at learning android/ios because i no longer see any gap differences between learning non MS development. I have had a wp7 phone for a year and still find the android better suited to my needs. Basically, anything advanced is not being done on wp7 as it restricts so much the apis. Anthony From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com]mailto:[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Keogh Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 8:06 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview sorry Greg, you indicated that you thought it's more confusing now, I completely disagree as the metro guidelines are very strong) A web search for Windows 8 design guidelines produces some possibly useful information, and some of it is frightening. Where are the technical guidelines for developers? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh464920.aspx From this, I can understand that the points are admirable and must be the result of vast amounts of research into how our eyes and brains work: clear, clean, touch, scaling, charms, tiles, roaming, suspend, etc. It all generally makes ergonomic and usability sense. Yes it's all certainly an admirable mission to implement these things. But I'm quite upset at the degree of sudden paradigm change and the lack of warning and advertising (even as a developer). Even if the metro guidelines are very strong, they're completely mutated away from any guidelines that have gone before. I'm extra angry simply because of the extra workload and burden of leaning yet another suddenly released standard. Development is hard enough already with a huge
RE: Win8 Release Preview
They've talked about it at virtually every major Microsft dev event since, including the new interface for Xbox. I haven't attended any phone presentations, only ones that are vital interest to what I'm writing now or in the foreseeable future, and it's a struggle just to keep up to date with that stuff. I've had no requests for anything mobile yet, although one might be on the horizon now, finally, so I get some practical experience. What's an Xbox? Whilst there are nuances to the Windows 8 story, it's still the same basic design language. We'll I'm about to try and develop one of those candy apps in my Win8 preview to see how hard it is to write something metro compliant. I hope you're right about the design language similarities for developers. I've written plenty of WPF and SL and I hope that time wasn't wasted. I should mention that I like that way you can search for apps and install them with similar ease to way you can find things in VS2010 Extension Manager. It will make more apps available more easily, like finding apps for your phone (security problems aside for now). We might finish up with too many crappy apps for Win8. Greg P.S. I clicked Cancel in some Win8 Mail app screen and it's the app is permanently broken with a white and gray screen with no controls and no response. I've just reinstalled Win8 from scratch, but luckily it's quick.
RE: Win8 Release Preview
Full screen apps are a sudden paradigm change. I mean ... I am running MSN Messenger at 2560 x 1440 Likewise ... my screen is the same size and filled with gigantic candy coloured slabs one at a time, mostly empty space. This full screen technique has got to go and change somehow, it's dog nuts -- Greg
RE: Win8 Release Preview
The start button should be on the desktop taskbar. There is absolutely no benefit in removing it. They've definitely got that part wrong. The start screen itself is a nice concept, and I think it can make a good start menu replacement, but it needs a lot more features to give back the features it is meant to replace. The first I would say is have collapsed application groups as a single tile, eg I could have a single tile called Microsoft Office, press on that to expand to show all the office tiles. Without something like this the screen will become a mess once you install all today's current apps from a working desktop environment. And as previously said, Documents, and Recent need to be there as well. It's ridiculous that in win 7 they brought out jump lists only to now abandon them. |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors |Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 9:50 AM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview | |On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au |wrote: | | | By hybrid I mean allow metro apps to run in sizeable windows, allow new | navigation screens to be popups (modal or not). Ideally the developer |should | just have to set a couple of attributes and the same metro app that runs | full screen could easily switch to running with/in windows | | | |Yep - agree. That really is the solution. | |Similarly, they could just put the start button back and make the metro home |screen thing pop up in a 1024x768 or whatever window/menu instead of taking |away your entire workspace and filling your screen with crap you'll never run. Not |sure I need Digital Certificate for VBA Projects front and centre... ever. | |-- |David Connors |da...@connors.me
Re: Win8 Release Preview
Yeah I disagree on that one. Adobe Edge for example still spanks Blends butt on the whole HTML5 front even though it's still in Lab mode. As I've probably stated in the past, the adoption of Blend has been so low that its been questioned numerous times whether or not it should be allowed to continue given it has failed in both sales and adoption metrics for years. Adobe Flash Professional and pretty much the alternative to .NET suite in that space is and has been the competitive and leading threat for that tool. It has also more numbers developing designing with it today. Light-years ahead is something I just cannot see realistically being agreed upon both external and even internal. As for minimalizing the pain, I don't disagree that the API's etc should be a fairly reasonable adjustment, but I worry also about the custodianship of the developer community during the transition. Historically Microsoft have had a consistent response to confusing the crap and being very weak on answers around change so given the fragile nature of the as-is WP7 communities how this moves forward is more the question of concern(s) and makes me wonder whether or not a position that Wp7 is better than Android development story has legs (hard to say today). Note - I agree Wp7 development and even design today is probably the easiest of all for .NET developers to wrap there heads around in the mobile space. It's nearly almost friction free provided you've found ways to ignore Blend's inconsistencies and issues. I am still keen to see how Adobe handle their Tooling around this space though as i think they have finally gotten back to grass roots and stopped playing we are a platform company and back to we are a tooling company .. ie see PhoneGap etc and how its tracking. --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Nick Randolph n...@builttoroam.com wrote: Scott – design tool it may not be, but Blend is light years ahead of other platforms. ** ** w.r.t. wp7 v’s win8 – yes, most likely. We’ll have to wait and see on that front. Whatever the story they’ll be looking to minimize the pain for developers in both short and long term. ** ** *Nick Randolph** *| *Built to Roam Pty Ltd* | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd. ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Scott Barnes *Sent:* Friday, 8 June 2012 9:43 AM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: Win8 Release Preview ** ** State of the art? ...VS i can subscribe to but you're not talking about Blend right?...right? ** ** How do you foresee them getting out from under Silverlight-centric API's in WP7 and opt for a more uniform approach via Win8 unified platform story? as at some point the temporary place holder (Silverlight) found in wp7 has to shift back into the work they are doing with Win8 for maybe wp8 or wp9 (specifically IE10 work)? Won't this also create another issue on the horizon around API forking(s) and misalignment (much like Android). ** ** --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Nick Randolph n...@builttoroam.com wrote: Hmmm, so you mean the fact that Wp7 and win8 dev is all XAML + C# (or VB.NET) doesn’t reduce the learning time? And the fact that we have state of the art application* *design tools doesn’t make it quicker to build apps? I’m confused, what more do you want Microsoft to do. In terms of a geek phone – sure Android is always going to be a better option as it’s an open platform but with it comes developer frustration and fragmentation (have you tried testing and shipping an Android app!). You also have to remember that Windows Phone trails by a year or so, and as such the apis are also trailing by that amount. I’d expect that the next drop will have some more goodness that will make our lives easier. *Nick Randolph *| *Built to Roam Pty Ltd* | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd. *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *ifum
RE: Win8 Release Preview
What's HTML and why do I care... only kidding. But on a serious note I was referring primarily to other mobile platforms where iOS is wowful and Android is like drawing with crayons. Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP - Windows Phone Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 10:12 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview Yeah I disagree on that one. Adobe Edge for example still spanks Blends butt on the whole HTML5 front even though it's still in Lab mode. As I've probably stated in the past, the adoption of Blend has been so low that its been questioned numerous times whether or not it should be allowed to continue given it has failed in both sales and adoption metrics for years. Adobe Flash Professional and pretty much the alternative to .NET suite in that space is and has been the competitive and leading threat for that tool. It has also more numbers developing designing with it today. Light-years ahead is something I just cannot see realistically being agreed upon both external and even internal. As for minimalizing the pain, I don't disagree that the API's etc should be a fairly reasonable adjustment, but I worry also about the custodianship of the developer community during the transition. Historically Microsoft have had a consistent response to confusing the crap and being very weak on answers around change so given the fragile nature of the as-is WP7 communities how this moves forward is more the question of concern(s) and makes me wonder whether or not a position that Wp7 is better than Android development story has legs (hard to say today). Note - I agree Wp7 development and even design today is probably the easiest of all for .NET developers to wrap there heads around in the mobile space. It's nearly almost friction free provided you've found ways to ignore Blend's inconsistencies and issues. I am still keen to see how Adobe handle their Tooling around this space though as i think they have finally gotten back to grass roots and stopped playing we are a platform company and back to we are a tooling company .. ie see PhoneGap etc and how its tracking. --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Nick Randolph n...@builttoroam.commailto:n...@builttoroam.com wrote: Scott - design tool it may not be, but Blend is light years ahead of other platforms. w.r.t. wp7 v's win8 - yes, most likely. We'll have to wait and see on that front. Whatever the story they'll be looking to minimize the pain for developers in both short and long term. Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP - Windows Phone Development | +61 412 413 425tel:%2B61%20412%20413%20425 | @btroam The information contained in this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 9:43 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview State of the art? ...VS i can subscribe to but you're not talking about Blend right?...right? How do you foresee them getting out from under Silverlight-centric API's in WP7 and opt for a more uniform approach via Win8 unified platform story? as at some point the temporary place holder (Silverlight) found in wp7 has to shift back into the work they are doing with Win8 for maybe wp8 or wp9 (specifically IE10 work)? Won't this also create another issue on the horizon around API forking(s) and misalignment (much like Android). --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Nick Randolph n...@builttoroam.commailto:n...@builttoroam.com wrote: Hmmm, so you mean the fact that Wp7 and win8 dev is all XAML + C# (or VB.NEThttp://VB.NET) doesn't reduce the learning time? And the fact that we have state of the art application design tools doesn't make it quicker to build apps? I'm confused, what more do you want Microsoft to do. In terms of a geek phone - sure Android is always going to be a better option as it's an open platform but with it comes developer frustration
Re: Win8 Release Preview
Nokia's efforts to finally tighten the messaging around Wp7 hasn't been something to ignore, having said that the uptake so far isn't something you would want to brag to heavily about - Samsungs native OS has more uptake than Wp7 ...yeah...sad .. I'm sceptical that the consumer win8 tablet story will be a herald success. I mean sure I can subscribe to small % of the consumer base buying it as an iPad like alternative but I don't think the Enterprise/Business communities will rush out and adopt as there is still a whole market place private vs public set of issues to yet resolve (as we have seen today with Wp7 itself). iPad has even caved to this demand by enabling a prescribed approach to deploying apps via SOE like experience and i'm yet to read/see Win8's response to this going forward (ie i can't see the mining sector embracing win8 via gorilla class / tough book style encasing... as sure the external parts would make it palatable but the software is still years away from attracting commercial attention). Maybe if they can combine XBOX Live Arcade style experiences on the Tablet in a way that's on par with the XBOX 360 itself you could potentially see a surge of 8-25year olds adopting as a casual gaming platform ... *maybe*. --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: In today’s age : ** ** http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/mobiles/windows-phone-to-surpass-ios-by-2016-analyst-20120608-1zzpl.html ** ** I recontracted when the Lumia 800 came out and it addressed the embarrassing parts of my previous WP (HTC Mozart). The screen is fantastic outside, and the signal strength isn’t too shabby either (gets a Telstra blue tick). ** ** I think WP 7 was a bit of a letdown, and a lot of people didn’t/don’t know what Mango changed. WP 7.1 (or 7.5 or whatever it is called) is more than pretty good. It does have some limitations many of us hope to see changed but the same can be said for any of the platforms. ** ** What is really nice to see is now I see WP phones in telco advertising, both printed and on television. Telstra for example sent out a business plan brochure the other day and WP had the full front page and page 2. I think come xmas time with windows 8 slates/tablets on display along with a new launch of WP8 (???) there will be a compelling market there for consumers. ** ** It ain’t dead yet … ;) ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Craig van Nieuwkerk *Sent:* Thursday, 7 June 2012 8:33 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: Win8 Release Preview ** ** ** ** I said wp7 would fail in the first three years of its birth. I said Silverlight was ear marked for depreciation along side WPF and now I say Win8 will fail in consumer uptake. ** ** ** ** WP7 has been cancelled?
Re: Win8 Release Preview
Bow before your HTML overlords and submit to thee! :) Adobe's PhoneGap is one to potentially smooth alot of those bumps out for both.. Blend *could* easily turn into a rival tool that would help not impede the MSFT development story ...they would however need to spend a release cycle on UX and firming the product(s) integration with Adobe tooling first. At the end of the day designers are the first class citizens now, and when you approach them with a Blend-like experience you fail to attract... You've seen the Wp7 marketplace and its fair to say that engineering wise there is a fairly large amount of willing participants ..its just the design is severely lacking and i can count on hand how many apps that actually look good enough to attract an iPhone like audience. I personally wish Microsoft would just go Willy Wonka on Win8/Win9.. that is, they close their doors, they spend 2 years crafting a tooling/platform story that's united and doesn't have lots of #IF #ELSE spread throughout the codebase ..and then.. release it to the world. It would shock the system just enough to push past a lot of change management concerns and we'd probably all be in a much healthier position to talk about .NET future(s). --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Nick Randolph n...@builttoroam.com wrote: What’s HTML and why do I care… only kidding. But on a serious note I was referring primarily to other mobile platforms where iOS is wowful and Android is like drawing with crayons. ** ** *Nick Randolph** *| *Built to Roam Pty Ltd* | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd. ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Scott Barnes *Sent:* Friday, 8 June 2012 10:12 AM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: Win8 Release Preview ** ** Yeah I disagree on that one. Adobe Edge for example still spanks Blends butt on the whole HTML5 front even though it's still in Lab mode. As I've probably stated in the past, the adoption of Blend has been so low that its been questioned numerous times whether or not it should be allowed to continue given it has failed in both sales and adoption metrics for years. ** ** Adobe Flash Professional and pretty much the alternative to .NET suite in that space is and has been the competitive and leading threat for that tool. It has also more numbers developing designing with it today. Light-years ahead is something I just cannot see realistically being agreed upon both external and even internal. ** ** As for minimalizing the pain, I don't disagree that the API's etc should be a fairly reasonable adjustment, but I worry also about the custodianship of the developer community during the transition. Historically Microsoft have had a consistent response to confusing the crap and being very weak on answers around change so given the fragile nature of the as-is WP7 communities how this moves forward is more the question of concern(s) and makes me wonder whether or not a position that Wp7 is better than Android development story has legs (hard to say today). ** ** Note - I agree Wp7 development and even design today is probably the easiest of all for .NET developers to wrap there heads around in the mobile space. It's nearly almost friction free provided you've found ways to ignore Blend's inconsistencies and issues. I am still keen to see how Adobe handle their Tooling around this space though as i think they have finally gotten back to grass roots and stopped playing we are a platform company and back to we are a tooling company .. ie see PhoneGap etc and how its tracking. --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Nick Randolph n...@builttoroam.com wrote: Scott – design tool it may not be, but Blend is light years ahead of other platforms. w.r.t. wp7 v’s win8 – yes, most likely. We’ll have to wait and see on that front. Whatever the story they’ll be looking to minimize the pain for developers in both short and long term. *Nick Randolph** *| *Built to Roam Pty Ltd* | Microsoft MVP – Windows Phone Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own
Re: Win8 Release Preview
the only plausible explanation I can think of to removing the start button is - After 20+ years of habitual usage we think its time you stop taking an emotive dependency on the bottom left. Kind of like a UX intervention by Microsoft and filled with Tough Love responses. .. They need a I'm addicted to the bottom left start button hotline though. It's where consumers can call in and find local StartButton Anonymous meetings whilst also potentially finding more sponsors to help them should they get a craving post adoption. It's still a bold move though. I mean if you're going to pick a fight you pick a fight and with the combination of Win8 anti-Win-UI-look-alike they have going is one shock to the system but then to follow through with a removal of the start button haymaker? ... Heir Steve.S has das some ballz. --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: The start button should be on the desktop taskbar. There is absolutely no benefit in removing it. They've definitely got that part wrong. The start screen itself is a nice concept, and I think it can make a good start menu replacement, but it needs a lot more features to give back the features it is meant to replace. The first I would say is have collapsed application groups as a single tile, eg I could have a single tile called Microsoft Office, press on that to expand to show all the office tiles. Without something like this the screen will become a mess once you install all today's current apps from a working desktop environment. And as previously said, Documents, and Recent need to be there as well. It's ridiculous that in win 7 they brought out jump lists only to now abandon them. |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors |Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 9:50 AM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview | |On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au |wrote: | | | By hybrid I mean allow metro apps to run in sizeable windows, allow new | navigation screens to be popups (modal or not). Ideally the developer |should | just have to set a couple of attributes and the same metro app that runs | full screen could easily switch to running with/in windows | | | |Yep - agree. That really is the solution. | |Similarly, they could just put the start button back and make the metro home |screen thing pop up in a 1024x768 or whatever window/menu instead of taking |away your entire workspace and filling your screen with crap you'll never run. Not |sure I need Digital Certificate for VBA Projects front and centre... ever. | |-- |David Connors |da...@connors.me
Re: Win8 Release Preview
Greetings all, I've been staying out of this conversation because I hadn't actually used windows 8. I decided to install it and see what all the fuss was about. So my impression after a couple of minutes poking around follows: I decided the UI design was terrible within seconds. It's clearly aimed at small screens, which is fine. But it doesn't take into account larger screens and adjust accordingly. The missing Start button people are complaining about, as far as I could tell, is still there. It's just microscopic and invisible and activated by hovering. I tried clicking on the desktop icon (tile, whatever) and got stuck on the desktop. I had to be told about these mysterious hot corners. Any UI that has invisible elements is a bad UI. Of course, the Start button just takes you back to those enormous space wasting tiles. So then I tried pointing at corners and found a Search button. I clicked it expecting a computer/internet search and instead got a full screen style All Programs menu. That in itself if fine but why call it Search? Is that just to be different to Apps or did people not understand Programs? Anyway, I just thought people might be interested in the first impressions of a developer who has been ignoring win7 and win8 up until now. I'll poke around a bit more over lunch. David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama
Re: Win8 Release Preview
One in five housewives found that apps wasn't as good as search. Nine out of ten developers on this sampled agreed that I made up those stats. :) --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:46 AM, David Richards ausdot...@davidsuniverse.com wrote: Greetings all, I've been staying out of this conversation because I hadn't actually used windows 8. I decided to install it and see what all the fuss was about. So my impression after a couple of minutes poking around follows: I decided the UI design was terrible within seconds. It's clearly aimed at small screens, which is fine. But it doesn't take into account larger screens and adjust accordingly. The missing Start button people are complaining about, as far as I could tell, is still there. It's just microscopic and invisible and activated by hovering. I tried clicking on the desktop icon (tile, whatever) and got stuck on the desktop. I had to be told about these mysterious hot corners. Any UI that has invisible elements is a bad UI. Of course, the Start button just takes you back to those enormous space wasting tiles. So then I tried pointing at corners and found a Search button. I clicked it expecting a computer/internet search and instead got a full screen style All Programs menu. That in itself if fine but why call it Search? Is that just to be different to Apps or did people not understand Programs? Anyway, I just thought people might be interested in the first impressions of a developer who has been ignoring win7 and win8 up until now. I'll poke around a bit more over lunch. David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama
RE: Win8 Release Preview
|the only plausible explanation I can think of to removing the start button is - |After 20+ years of habitual usage we think its time you stop taking an emotive |dependency on the bottom left. Huh ? I use to always dock to the top (and then hide it sometimes too). These days my taskbar is docked to the right... makes a lot more sense with newer wide screens |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes |Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 10:27 AM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview | |the only plausible explanation I can think of to removing the start button is - |After 20+ years of habitual usage we think its time you stop taking an emotive |dependency on the bottom left. | |Kind of like a UX intervention by Microsoft and filled with Tough Love responses. |.. They need a I'm addicted to the bottom left start button hotline though. It's |where consumers can call in and find local StartButton Anonymous meetings |whilst also potentially finding more sponsors to help them should they get a |craving post adoption. | |It's still a bold move though. I mean if you're going to pick a fight you pick a fight |and with the combination of Win8 anti-Win-UI-look-alike they have going is one |shock to the system but then to follow through with a removal of the start button |haymaker? ... Heir Steve.S has das some ballz. | |--- |Regards, |Scott Barnes |http://www.riagenic.com | | | |On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au |wrote: | | | The start button should be on the desktop taskbar. There is absolutely no | benefit in removing it. They've definitely got that part wrong. | | The start screen itself is a nice concept, and I think it can make a good | start menu replacement, but it needs a lot more features to give back the | features it is meant to replace. The first I would say is have collapsed | application groups as a single tile, eg I could have a single tile called | Microsoft Office, press on that to expand to show all the office tiles. | Without something like this the screen will become a mess once you |install | all today's current apps from a working desktop environment. | | And as previously said, Documents, and Recent need to be there as well. | It's ridiculous that in win 7 they brought out jump lists only to now | abandon them. | | | | | |-Original Message- | |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- | | |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors | |Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 9:50 AM | |To: ozDotNet | |Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview | | | | |On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Bill McCarthy | bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au | |wrote: | | | | | | By hybrid I mean allow metro apps to run in sizeable windows, allow | new | | navigation screens to be popups (modal or not). Ideally the | developer | |should | | just have to set a couple of attributes and the same metro app that | runs | | full screen could easily switch to running with/in windows | | | | | | | |Yep - agree. That really is the solution. | | | |Similarly, they could just put the start button back and make the metro | home | |screen thing pop up in a 1024x768 or whatever window/menu instead of |taking | |away your entire workspace and filling your screen with crap you'll |never | run. Not | |sure I need Digital Certificate for VBA Projects front and centre... | ever. | | | |-- | |David Connors | |da...@connors.me | | | |
Re: Win8 Release Preview
On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: |the only plausible explanation I can think of to removing the start button is - |After 20+ years of habitual usage we think its time you stop taking an emotive |dependency on the bottom left. Huh ? I use to always dock to the top (and then hide it sometimes too). These days my taskbar is docked to the right... makes a lot more sense with newer wide screens Yeah, same here. Unfortunately, the new start menu hotspot stays in the bottom left. -- David Connors da...@connors.me
Re: Win8 Release Preview
I agree, I always have my task bar at the top or side. With multiple monitors, it goes on one of the secondary monitors. David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama On 8 June 2012 10:50, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: |the only plausible explanation I can think of to removing the start button is - |After 20+ years of habitual usage we think its time you stop taking an emotive |dependency on the bottom left. Huh ? I use to always dock to the top (and then hide it sometimes too). These days my taskbar is docked to the right... makes a lot more sense with newer wide screens
RE: Win8 Release Preview
The search charm is kind of good once you get use to its quirks. It's lacking wildcards though, and most importantly it's missing a search all, or search apps, settings, and documents. The biggest issue I have with it (apart from lack of discoverability and quirky keyboard behaviour etc etc) is that the end user has to know what is a setting versus what is an app. Is windows update a setting or is it an app ? Who really cares when you know you just want Windows update, why make it more complicated |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes |Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 10:49 AM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview | |One in five housewives found that apps wasn't as good as search. Nine out of |ten developers on this sampled agreed that I made up those stats. | |:) | |--- |Regards, |Scott Barnes |http://www.riagenic.com | | | |On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:46 AM, David Richards |ausdot...@davidsuniverse.com wrote: | | | Greetings all, | | I've been staying out of this conversation because I hadn't actually | used windows 8. I decided to install it and see what all the fuss was | about. So my impression after a couple of minutes poking around | follows: | | I decided the UI design was terrible within seconds. It's clearly | aimed at small screens, which is fine. But it doesn't take into | account larger screens and adjust accordingly. | | The missing Start button people are complaining about, as far as I | could tell, is still there. It's just microscopic and invisible and | activated by hovering. I tried clicking on the desktop icon (tile, | whatever) and got stuck on the desktop. I had to be told about these | mysterious hot corners. Any UI that has invisible elements is a bad | UI. Of course, the Start button just takes you back to those enormous | space wasting tiles. | | So then I tried pointing at corners and found a Search button. I | clicked it expecting a computer/internet search and instead got a full | screen style All Programs menu. That in itself if fine but why call | it Search? Is that just to be different to Apps or did people not | understand Programs? | | Anyway, I just thought people might be interested in the first | impressions of a developer who has been ignoring win7 and win8 up | until now. I'll poke around a bit more over lunch. | | David | | If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes |will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! |-Zapp Brannigan, Futurama | |
RE: Win8 Release Preview
Dang, I meant left ;) |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy |Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 10:51 AM |To: 'ozDotNet' |Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview | ||the only plausible explanation I can think of to removing the start ||button |is - ||After 20+ years of habitual usage we think its time you stop taking an |emotive ||dependency on the bottom left. | |Huh ? I use to always dock to the top (and then hide it sometimes too). |These days my taskbar is docked to the right... makes a lot more sense with |newer wide screens | | ||-Original Message- ||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- ||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes ||Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 10:27 AM ||To: ozDotNet ||Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview || ||the only plausible explanation I can think of to removing the start ||button |is - ||After 20+ years of habitual usage we think its time you stop taking an |emotive ||dependency on the bottom left. || ||Kind of like a UX intervention by Microsoft and filled with Tough Love |responses. ||.. They need a I'm addicted to the bottom left start button hotline |though. It's ||where consumers can call in and find local StartButton Anonymous ||meetings whilst also potentially finding more sponsors to help them ||should they get |a ||craving post adoption. || ||It's still a bold move though. I mean if you're going to pick a fight ||you |pick a fight ||and with the combination of Win8 anti-Win-UI-look-alike they have going ||is |one ||shock to the system but then to follow through with a removal of the ||start |button ||haymaker? ... Heir Steve.S has das some ballz. || ||--- ||Regards, ||Scott Barnes ||http://www.riagenic.com || || || ||On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Bill McCarthy |bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au ||wrote: || || || The start button should be on the desktop taskbar. There is |absolutely no || benefit in removing it. They've definitely got that part wrong. || || The start screen itself is a nice concept, and I think it can make a |good || start menu replacement, but it needs a lot more features to give |back the || features it is meant to replace. The first I would say is have |collapsed || application groups as a single tile, eg I could have a single tile |called || Microsoft Office, press on that to expand to show all the office |tiles. || Without something like this the screen will become a mess once you ||install || all today's current apps from a working desktop environment. || || And as previously said, Documents, and Recent need to be there as |well. || It's ridiculous that in win 7 they brought out jump lists only to |now || abandon them. || || || || || |-Original Message- || |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- || || |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors || |Sent: Friday, 8 June 2012 9:50 AM || |To: ozDotNet || |Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview || | || || |On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Bill McCarthy || bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au || |wrote: || | || | || | By hybrid I mean allow metro apps to run in sizeable |windows, allow || new || | navigation screens to be popups (modal or not). Ideally the || developer || |should || | just have to set a couple of attributes and the same metro |app that || runs || | full screen could easily switch to running with/in windows || | || | || | || |Yep - agree. That really is the solution. || | || |Similarly, they could just put the start button back and make the |metro || home || |screen thing pop up in a 1024x768 or whatever window/menu instead |of ||taking || |away your entire workspace and filling your screen with crap you'll ||never || run. Not || |sure I need Digital Certificate for VBA Projects front and |centre... || ever. || | || |-- || |David Connors || |da...@connors.me || || || || |
RE: Win8 Release Preview
Folks, I've downloaded and installed Win8 preview and I've only been using it for 20 minutes or so. So I get a big candy coloured Start screen and there is absolutely nothing I want on that patronising childish screen, so I go to the desktop and find there are no menus or buttons anywhere to actually do anything. The Start button is conspicuously absent. I couldn't get back to the Start screen, so I just pressed buttons randomly until I think the Windows key took me back. Phew! Then I had to run 5 minutes of web searches to find out how to get into Control Panel to change the region formats. Hell they've clever in tricking me, I had to just start typing Control Pa and it appears in a search results. I would never, ever have thought of that. It turns I can right click the Start screen and click All Apps to get a mutated Start menu, which isn't so bad, but I wouldn't have quickly thought of that either. My first impression is that Windows 8 has turned my PC into a gigantic mobile phone with one app filling the screen and running at a time. I'm not impressed, I have to do many things at once and get to them quickly and switch between them. It's not obvious yet how this is possible in Win8. I know that each new Windows usually creates some sort of usability change, shock or paradigm shift, but this is ridiculous, it's barely even Windows any more. Was that the marketing decision? I will have to read tutorials like a newbie to even figure out how to do anything in Win8 because absolutely nothing is obvious, how embarrassing. Perhaps in a few days I'll learn more and feel better, but I'm just shocked by how much it has changed. Greg
RE: Win8 Release Preview
Anyone know how it looks on multiple monitors? What happens with the full screen win8 apps? Regards Adrian Halid Senior Analyst/Programmer [cid:image001.jpg@01CD4400.570708E0] IT Vision Australia Pty Ltd (ABN: 34 309 336 904) PO Box 881, Canning Bridge WA 6153 Level 3, Kirin Centre, 15 Ogilvie Road, Applecross, WA, 6153 P: (08) 9315 7000 F: (08) 9315 7088 E: adrian.ha...@itvision.com.aumailto:adrian.ha...@itvision.com.auW: http://www.itvision.com.auhttp://www.itvision.com.au/ ___ NOTICE : This e-mail and any attachments are intended for the addressee(s) only and may contain confidential or privileged material. Any unauthorised review, use, alteration, disclosure or distribution of this e-mail (including any attachments) by an unintended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient please contact the sender as soon as possible by return e-mail and then delete both messages. ___ From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Keogh Sent: Wednesday, 6 June 2012 4:08 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview Folks, I've downloaded and installed Win8 preview and I've only been using it for 20 minutes or so. So I get a big candy coloured Start screen and there is absolutely nothing I want on that patronising childish screen, so I go to the desktop and find there are no menus or buttons anywhere to actually do anything. The Start button is conspicuously absent. I couldn't get back to the Start screen, so I just pressed buttons randomly until I think the Windows key took me back. Phew! Then I had to run 5 minutes of web searches to find out how to get into Control Panel to change the region formats. Hell they've clever in tricking me, I had to just start typing Control Pa and it appears in a search results. I would never, ever have thought of that. It turns I can right click the Start screen and click All Apps to get a mutated Start menu, which isn't so bad, but I wouldn't have quickly thought of that either. My first impression is that Windows 8 has turned my PC into a gigantic mobile phone with one app filling the screen and running at a time. I'm not impressed, I have to do many things at once and get to them quickly and switch between them. It's not obvious yet how this is possible in Win8. I know that each new Windows usually creates some sort of usability change, shock or paradigm shift, but this is ridiculous, it's barely even Windows any more. Was that the marketing decision? I will have to read tutorials like a newbie to even figure out how to do anything in Win8 because absolutely nothing is obvious, how embarrassing. Perhaps in a few days I'll learn more and feel better, but I'm just shocked by how much it has changed. Greg inline: image001.jpg
RE: Win8 Release Preview
http://channel9.msdn.com/posts/Enhancing-Windows-8-for-multiple-monitors Works like this on my home setup. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Halid Sent: Wednesday, 6 June 2012 6:21 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview Anyone know how it looks on multiple monitors? What happens with the full screen win8 apps? Regards Adrian Halid Senior Analyst/Programmer [Description: email_signature_logo] IT Vision Australia Pty Ltd (ABN: 34 309 336 904) PO Box 881, Canning Bridge WA 6153 Level 3, Kirin Centre, 15 Ogilvie Road, Applecross, WA, 6153 P: (08) 9315 7000 F: (08) 9315 7088 E: adrian.ha...@itvision.com.aumailto:adrian.ha...@itvision.com.auW: http://www.itvision.com.auhttp://www.itvision.com.au/ ___ NOTICE : This e-mail and any attachments are intended for the addressee(s) only and may contain confidential or privileged material. Any unauthorised review, use, alteration, disclosure or distribution of this e-mail (including any attachments) by an unintended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient please contact the sender as soon as possible by return e-mail and then delete both messages. ___ From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com]mailto:[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Keogh Sent: Wednesday, 6 June 2012 4:08 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview Folks, I've downloaded and installed Win8 preview and I've only been using it for 20 minutes or so. So I get a big candy coloured Start screen and there is absolutely nothing I want on that patronising childish screen, so I go to the desktop and find there are no menus or buttons anywhere to actually do anything. The Start button is conspicuously absent. I couldn't get back to the Start screen, so I just pressed buttons randomly until I think the Windows key took me back. Phew! Then I had to run 5 minutes of web searches to find out how to get into Control Panel to change the region formats. Hell they've clever in tricking me, I had to just start typing Control Pa and it appears in a search results. I would never, ever have thought of that. It turns I can right click the Start screen and click All Apps to get a mutated Start menu, which isn't so bad, but I wouldn't have quickly thought of that either. My first impression is that Windows 8 has turned my PC into a gigantic mobile phone with one app filling the screen and running at a time. I'm not impressed, I have to do many things at once and get to them quickly and switch between them. It's not obvious yet how this is possible in Win8. I know that each new Windows usually creates some sort of usability change, shock or paradigm shift, but this is ridiculous, it's barely even Windows any more. Was that the marketing decision? I will have to read tutorials like a newbie to even figure out how to do anything in Win8 because absolutely nothing is obvious, how embarrassing. Perhaps in a few days I'll learn more and feel better, but I'm just shocked by how much it has changed. Greg inline: image001.jpg
RE: Win8 Release Preview
hey Greg. This is exactly what I've been fearful of from the moment the first screen shots leaked. Its ugly, and in my mind, a big mistake. Nothing I've read about or seen has changed my mind on that so far. I've always been bleeding edge. Always. I'm doubtful now. The ugliness and strange decision to force the touch paradigm on a mouse and keyboard have lost me. And don't get me started on how awful the new vs looks to go along with it. On Jun 6, 2012 6:08 PM, Greg Keogh g...@mira.net wrote: Folks, I’ve downloaded and installed Win8 preview and I’ve only been using it for 20 minutes or so. ** ** So I get a big candy coloured Start screen and there is absolutely nothing I want on that patronising childish screen, so I go to the desktop and find there are no menus or buttons anywhere to actually do anything. The Start button is conspicuously absent. I couldn’t get back to the Start screen, so I just pressed buttons randomly until I think the Windows key took me back. Phew! ** ** Then I had to run 5 minutes of web searches to find out how to get into Control Panel to change the region formats. Hell they’ve clever in tricking me, I had to just start typing “Control Pa” and it appears in a search results. I would never, ever have thought of that. ** ** It turns I can right click the Start screen and click All Apps to get a mutated Start menu, which isn’t so bad, but I wouldn’t have quickly thought of that either. ** ** My first impression is that Windows 8 has turned my PC into a gigantic mobile phone with one app filling the screen and running at a time. I’m not impressed, I have to do many things at once and get to them quickly and switch between them. It’s not obvious yet how this is possible in Win8. I know that each new Windows usually creates some sort of usability change, shock or paradigm shift, but this is ridiculous, it’s barely even Windows any more. Was that the marketing decision? I will have to read tutorials like a newbie to even figure out how to do anything in Win8 because absolutely nothing is obvious, how embarrassing. ** ** Perhaps in a few days I’ll learn more and feel better, but I’m just shocked by how much it has changed. ** ** Greg ** **
Re: Win8 Release Preview
Welcome to the future. Going forward you will be developing directly on your phone, so it makes sense that you can run all of your software on your phone. Your phone will be super powerful and you'll plug it into a dock at work giving you keyboard, mouse and multimonitors. The windows desktop is legacy software. Embrace the change, for the only constant in the universe is change. It takes some getting used to, and no doubt people will find ways around the things they don't like. I have windows 8 installed on my eee slate and it makes the thing usable. It came with Windows 7 and it was horrible. That said, the battery life is horrid (being that of a laptop not a tablet) and I can't use it with the bluetooth keyboard (don't like it being not connected to the screen for some reason). I just got a dell xps 13 which i'm loving but I've not decided yet if I upgrade it to Windows 8 RC or wait. Think I'll wait for now. no touch screen on that. Thing that will address my issues (not issues... too minor to be issues). Get something like Asus Transformer Infinity that has touch screen AND keyboard that can be attached/detached, and will run Windows 8. I heard rumours that there may be a device that can dual boot Android and Windows 8. That would be sweet. might even hold off buying the Transformer Infinity to see if they release something that dual boots. Theres an advertising image being shown at a conference with windows and android logos floating in droplets of water. Waterproof as well!??! :) I'm excited about it. I can still run the software I need (pin it to the start window. You can customise what shows there after all.. pin the things you do want to run, remove the rest!) and it makes touch screens useful. Bring it on! On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Greg Keogh g...@mira.net wrote: Folks, I’ve downloaded and installed Win8 preview and I’ve only been using it for 20 minutes or so. So I get a big candy coloured Start screen and there is absolutely nothing I want on that patronising childish screen, so I go to the desktop and find there are no menus or buttons anywhere to actually do anything. The Start button is conspicuously absent. I couldn’t get back to the Start screen, so I just pressed buttons randomly until I think the Windows key took me back. Phew! Then I had to run 5 minutes of web searches to find out how to get into Control Panel to change the region formats. Hell they’ve clever in tricking me, I had to just start typing “Control Pa” and it appears in a search results. I would never, ever have thought of that. It turns I can right click the Start screen and click All Apps to get a mutated Start menu, which isn’t so bad, but I wouldn’t have quickly thought of that either. My first impression is that Windows 8 has turned my PC into a gigantic mobile phone with one app filling the screen and running at a time. I’m not impressed, I have to do many things at once and get to them quickly and switch between them. It’s not obvious yet how this is possible in Win8. I know that each new Windows usually creates some sort of usability change, shock or paradigm shift, but this is ridiculous, it’s barely even Windows any more. Was that the marketing decision? I will have to read tutorials like a newbie to even figure out how to do anything in Win8 because absolutely nothing is obvious, how embarrassing. Perhaps in a few days I’ll learn more and feel better, but I’m just shocked by how much it has changed. Greg
RE: Win8 Release Preview
Chaps, Andrew and Stephen, if you have become productive on Win8, then I am tempted to pay you for tutorials. Do have a specific example of familiar daily tasks that work in some superior way? What's this pinning you like, can I try it? I hadn't thought about the corporate training side issues. Lord knows how this will be rolled out in big companies The mind boggles at getting the carbon blobs from sector 7G to upgrade and get back to work. As a programmer mostly on web and desktop for the moment I'm really worried about conventions and standards. For decades I've had UI guidelines and conventions about usability and how apps should look and feel and not frighten users. Then WPF came along and everything went rubbery. Now Win8 has come along and everything is melting jelly. How the hell am I supposed to write an app that runs nicely in Win8? Are there any guidelines? Multi-OS targeting issues!? These and a zillion other on-the-ground questions about writing real-world apps now. I'm am utterly bewildered where Microsoft is going both artistically and practically. Perhaps I will be less irritable and confused if someone could explain in clear developer's geeky technical practical terms why Win8 looks like it does and how I am supposed to respond to it. Any links anyone? The list of points that Ian posted are quite sharp. I also wondered why apps are full screen (on my bloody great screen), where the app menus /options/etc and close buttons are. All of the familiar paradigms that are arguably necessary in software have vanished or moved. I mean, every app needs options of some sort, and needs to be closed (unless I've woken up in the 23rd century and everything has changed utterly). I eventually managed to join my Domain somehow, but why demand a Live login up front? Alt+anykey or other weird keystrokes will do something random (like 1980s word processors). Moving the mouse around is like exploring in a maze. Hitting Windows key flips between completely different modes, like I'm running two totally different operating systems at once. Overall, I'm bewildered and angry at being reduced to a bumbling incompetent despite 35 years experience on dozens of platforms, it's like the designers of Win8 had bets on who could invent to most counter-intuitive tricks and traps possible to obfuscate everything as a gargantuan practical joke (like the Office ribbon). I'm also angry as a developer because I have no clear direction now about what to learn or what to use for Win8 (if it matters!). The future of Windows software development has become really muddy. As Homer Simpson said, it's my first day, so perhaps by next week I'll be struck by a techno-epiphany and apologise for what I've said. Greg P.S. My favourite example of Win8 bafflement is trying to figure out how to shut the damn thing down. I leave that as an exercise for the reader.
Re: Win8 Release Preview
On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 10:59 PM, Greg Keogh g...@mira.net wrote: Chaps, ** ** Andrew and Stephen, if you have become productive on Win8, then I am tempted to pay you for tutorials. Do have a specific example of familiar daily tasks that work in some superior way? What’s this “pinning” you like, can I try it? I hadn’t thought about the corporate training side issues. Lord knows how this will be rolled out in big companies The mind boggles at getting the carbon blobs from sector 7G to upgrade and get back to work. ** ** As a programmer mostly on web and desktop for the moment I’m really worried about conventions and standards. For decades I’ve had UI guidelines and conventions about usability and how apps should look and feel and not frighten users. Then WPF came along and everything went rubbery. Now Win8 has come along and everything is melting jelly. How the hell am I supposed to write an app that runs nicely in Win8? Are there any guidelines? Multi-OS targeting issues!? These and a zillion other on-the-ground questions about writing real-world apps now. Quite interesting questions, especially Multi-os targeting. ** ** I’m am utterly bewildered where Microsoft is going both artistically and practically. Perhaps I will be less irritable and confused if someone could explain in clear developer’s geeky technical practical terms why Win8 looks like it does and how I am supposed to respond to it. Any links anyone? ** It looks like an OS for toddlers. ** The list of points that Ian posted are quite sharp. I also wondered why apps are full screen (on my bloody great screen), where the app menus /options/etc and close buttons are. All of the familiar paradigms that are arguably necessary in software have vanished or moved. I mean, every app needs “options” of some sort, and needs to be closed (unless I’ve woken up in the 23rd century and everything has changed utterly). I eventually managed to join my Domain somehow, but why demand a Live login up front? Alt+anykey or other weird keystrokes will do something random (like 1980s word processors). Moving the mouse around is like exploring in a maze. Hitting Windows key flips between completely different modes, like I’m running two totally different operating systems at once. ** ** Overall, I’m bewildered and angry at being reduced to a bumbling incompetent despite 35 years experience on dozens of platforms, it’s like the designers of Win8 had bets on who could invent to most counter-intuitive tricks and traps possible to obfuscate everything as a gargantuan practical joke (like the Office ribbon). I’m also angry as a developer because I have no clear direction now about what to learn or what to use for Win8 (if it matters!). The future of Windows software development has become really muddy. ** ** As Homer Simpson said, “it’s my first day”, so perhaps by next week I’ll be struck by a techno-epiphany and apologise for what I’ve said. ** ** Greg ** ** P.S. My favourite example of Win8 bafflement is trying to figure out how to shut the damn thing down. I leave that as an exercise for the reader.** ** Kill the VM it's running in. Noone will run it on a real machine. -- Meski http://courteous.ly/aAOZcv Going to Starbucks for coffee is like going to prison for sex. Sure, you'll get it, but it's going to be rough - Adam Hills
RE: Win8 Release Preview
Hi Greg, I feel you pain. I get that suddenly everything being different can throw you, especially when, as you said, when struggling for consistency. Tonight I rebuilt my home desktop. An evening of firsts for me. My first 6 core/12 thread cpu. My first LGA2011 motherboard. My first water cooled cpu fan. I put in a new motherboard and cpu, and an extra graphics card. So that gives me three graphics cards in there. There’s another slot on the motherboard I could put one more gfx card in but the case doesn't have the back slots for it... so I’d have to get a new case if I want to do that. Would run it in SLI x 3 but the connector they gave me don't fit the cards. a trip to the computer shop to pick one up hopefully. When I booted my machine after putting in new cpu and motherboard, the old Win 7 didn't boot. Ah well it was only installed a few weeks ago so I decided to install Windows 8 (partly after reading todays thread, but mainly because I could!) Drivers of my old graphics cards were automatically detected. the new graphics card (an Asus) wasn’t recognised. I tried the win7 drivers on asus website but that didn't work. Then I saw a windows update actually had a new driver waiting for it. I installed that and it failed. So I downloaded the Nvidia Windows 8 driver, installed that and now all three screens are working nicely. Loving the speed at which this thing boots up. Installing windows 8 was so fast I looked away and thought it had failed. Wasn't until I realised that it had rebooted from the usb drive again that it had finished. I swear it was less than 10 minutes. I’m typing this email into the email client that I pointed at my google account. Yes everything feels really big, because all the apps are full screen. I can jump to the desktop and install apps or whatever so all the old PC desktop stuff is still there. If you want to pin something first you find it via typing (search will appear when you press a letter) and right click the tile. Menu down the bottom gives pin to start option. That will give you a tile so you don't have to go looking for it. Drag it around to where you want it. Right click the ones you don't want and unpin them. This is beta software. I’ve seen the screen go all pink a couple of times and locked up. It might go better when I’ve got that SLI connector, or when the drivers are no longer beta. It seems really slick and this is on a machine with no touch screen. I did see a preview of a new tablet from Asus that has a laptop keyboard and a screen on both sides of the lid. Designed for windows 8. It looks sweet. Kinda bummed out I just bought this dell xps 13 but it might be months before the new ones come out. I’ll be due for a new toy by then! lol Hang in there Greg. I think you’ll find things more usable. Less on the screen, means more focused. You can still task switch (mouse top left and the tasks spring up). As for powering off... control-alt-delete and there’s a big off button bottom right. If you don't get this, the email client crashed on me. I’ll not be typing it again. :) cheers, Stephen (on the bleeding edge) Sent from my Windows 8 PC http://windows.microsoft.com/consumer-preview *From:* Greg Keogh g...@mira.net *Sent:* Wednesday, June 6, 2012 8:59:37 PM *To:* ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com *Subject:* RE: Win8 Release Preview Chaps, ** ** Andrew and Stephen, if you have become productive on Win8, then I am tempted to pay you for tutorials. Do have a specific example of familiar daily tasks that work in some superior way? What’s this “pinning” you like, can I try it? I hadn’t thought about the corporate training side issues. Lord knows how this will be rolled out in big companies The mind boggles at getting the carbon blobs from sector 7G to upgrade and get back to work. ** ** As a programmer mostly on web and desktop for the moment I’m really worried about conventions and standards. For decades I’ve had UI guidelines and conventions about usability and how apps should look and feel and not frighten users. Then WPF came along and everything went rubbery. Now Win8 has come along and everything is melting jelly. How the hell am I supposed to write an app that runs nicely in Win8? Are there any guidelines? Multi-OS targeting issues!? These and a zillion other on-the-ground questions about writing real-world apps now. ** ** I’m am utterly bewildered where Microsoft is going both artistically and practically. Perhaps I will be less irritable and confused if someone could explain in clear developer’s geeky technical practical terms why Win8 looks like it does and how I am supposed to respond to it. Any links anyone? ** ** The list of points that Ian posted are quite sharp. I also wondered why apps are full screen (on my bloody great screen), where the app menus /options/etc and close buttons are. All of the familiar paradigms that are arguably necessary in software have vanished or moved. I mean, every app needs
RE: Win8 Release Preview
IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the windows phone like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities between the different form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to me to be designed for content consumption not content creation. Where, for example, is My documents gone ? There's some weird divides between desktop and metro that really only make sense to developer geeks who understand these are different runtime platforms: but forcing that differentiation onto consumers seems wrong to me. Why should they need to care if their app is metro or not? Why do running apps all appear when you hit alt+tab, but yet only one subset appears in the windows desktop taskbar, and another subset in the metro taskbar (nb the metro taskbar only shows one of the two apps that are running if one of them is docked) I think consumers' reaction will be mixed. Tablet users (especially those with windows phones) will like win 8. Existing users of win 7 that do a lot of content creation are more likely to have that initial negative reaction like Greg posted about, one that I've seen a lot of other people express too. I do believe it can be made a lot better. The problem to me seems it's more like running metro windows with traditional windows in a VM. There needs to be better integration.. I really strongly believe that with just a handful of changes the experience could be a lot better: 1. Make the start menu screen a pivot app with pivots that include running applications, My Documents . (maybe include recent, favourites etc). The running pivot pane would include all running apps as is currently in the ALT+TAB list. 2. Get rid of the metro left pane taskbar (no longer needed if (1) is implemented, and show all apps in the windows desktop taskbar 3. Allow metro apps to be run in windows !!That is, allow them to be run in a sizeable window alongside desktop apps. (via right click menu, and allow for that preference to be saved) 4. Allow for flexible docking. The current docking for metro apps is way too limited. 5. Include the start button on the desktop, and when pressed, show the metro start menu screen but show it as not quite full screen, so as it has the appearance of a window (eg top,left at 10, bottom and right in about 20 then add a bit of a drop shadow) There's probably more that could be done to improve integration eg why doesn't the DPI settings also update the metro settings instead today you have to change metro to Large separately and Large isn't the same slight magnification as 125% is; why isn't screen resolution in computer settings, instead you have to get to it via desktop or search for control panel etc. I like the idea of simplification but the current bits feel more like duplication. Anyway, I think win 8 is close, but all the good work done behind the scenes to make windows 7 better will be lost to negative reactions to the metro addition. I'm still hoping they will make some more changes but it doesn't look like it from the preview, instead it looks like they are rushing to market (realistically only four or so months left to make Christmas for retail devices). I haven't given up hope yet though; I'm hoping for a windows 8 mango release if worse comes to worse, but will still be sad to see so much negative reaction to the first release.
Re: Win8 Release Preview
On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the windows phone like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities between the different form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to me to be designed for content consumption not content creation. Where, for example, is My documents gone ? I find it paradoxical that we can have threads dealing with 3, 4, 5 large monitors to cater to an OS that expects a target of, at best tablet size. There's some weird divides between desktop and metro that really only make sense to developer geeks who understand these are different runtime platforms: but forcing that differentiation onto consumers seems wrong to me. Why should they need to care if their app is metro or not? Why do running apps all appear when you hit alt+tab, but yet only one subset appears in the windows desktop taskbar, and another subset in the metro taskbar (nb the metro taskbar only shows one of the two apps that are running if one of them is docked) It's all about efficient use of large screens. And Metro just isn't. I think consumers' reaction will be mixed. Tablet users (especially those with windows phones) will like win 8. Agreed. If Win8 can handle being 4th to market in a fairly mature marketplace. Being third wasn't terribly useful for us. (disclaimer, this is not the opinion of my employer, but is personal - assume this disclaimer applies to all my comments, actually.) Existing users of win 7 that do a lot of content creation are more likely to have that initial negative reaction like Greg posted about, one that I've seen a lot of other people express too. Win7 is adequate or better for desktops, Win 8 is less so. I do believe it can be made a lot better. The problem to me seems it's more like running metro windows with traditional windows in a VM. There needs to be better integration.. I really strongly believe that with just a handful of changes the experience could be a lot better: 1. Make the start menu screen a pivot app with pivots that include running applications, My Documents . (maybe include recent, favourites etc). The running pivot pane would include all running apps as is currently in the ALT+TAB list. 2. Get rid of the metro left pane taskbar (no longer needed if (1) is implemented, and show all apps in the windows desktop taskbar 3. Allow metro apps to be run in windows !!That is, allow them to be run in a sizeable window alongside desktop apps. (via right click menu, and allow for that preference to be saved) 4. Allow for flexible docking. The current docking for metro apps is way too limited. 5. Include the start button on the desktop, and when pressed, show the metro start menu screen but show it as not quite full screen, so as it has the appearance of a window (eg top,left at 10, bottom and right in about 20 then add a bit of a drop shadow) There's probably more that could be done to improve integration eg why doesn't the DPI settings also update the metro settings instead today you have to change metro to Large separately and Large isn't the same slight magnification as 125% is; why isn't screen resolution in computer settings, instead you have to get to it via desktop or search for control panel etc. I like the idea of simplification but the current bits feel more like duplication. Anyway, I think win 8 is close, but all the good work done behind the scenes to make windows 7 better will be lost to negative reactions to the metro addition. I'm still hoping they will make some more changes but it doesn't look like it from the preview, instead it looks like they are rushing to market (realistically only four or so months left to make Christmas for retail devices). I haven't given up hope yet though; I'm hoping for a windows 8 mango release if worse comes to worse, but will still be sad to see so much negative reaction to the first release. All of theses are somewhat hacks to make it perform like the previous version. -- Meski http://courteous.ly/aAOZcv Going to Starbucks for coffee is like going to prison for sex. Sure, you'll get it, but it's going to be rough - Adam Hills
Re: Win8 Release Preview
Agreed. If Win8 can handle being 4th to market in a fairly mature marketplace. You think tablets are mature market? I would think this market is still in nappies. It is still anyone's game.
Re: Win8 Release Preview
On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:23 AM, Craig van Nieuwkerk crai...@gmail.com wrote: Agreed. If Win8 can handle being 4th to market in a fairly mature marketplace. You think tablets are mature market? I would think this market is still in nappies. It is still anyone's game. In tech, being 2 years late to market is an eternity. -- Meski http://courteous.ly/aAOZcv Going to Starbucks for coffee is like going to prison for sex. Sure, you'll get it, but it's going to be rough - Adam Hills
RE: Win8 Release Preview
Totally agree. I still can’t make up my mind which one I want. They all have strengths and weaknesses. I’m loving the look of the Asus Taichi (I think that's the spelling?) which is like a clamshell laptop. Laptop when you need it, with screen on both sides (which both can be used at same time with mirror). Tablet when you want it and looks super thin. I’m a PC. If I could get a PC in iPad form (and I mean battery life, performance and light) then I’m there. Sent from my Windows 8 PC http://windows.microsoft.com/consumer-preview *From:* Craig van Nieuwkerk crai...@gmail.com *Sent:* Thursday, June 7, 2012 7:24:21 AM *To:* ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com *Subject:* Re: Win8 Release Preview Agreed. If Win8 can handle being 4th to market in a fairly mature marketplace. You think tablets are mature market? I would think this market is still in nappies. It is still anyone's game.
Re: Win8 Release Preview
On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the windows phone like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities between the different form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to me to be designed for content consumption not content creation. Where, for example, is My documents gone ? I think you're right - it is very close. The problem is that there is a lot of traditional desktop functionality that has become a casualty of MS' iPad fear. I reckon if the start menu came back and they got rid of the need for hot spots in the corners it could be a lot more usable. Metro vs desktop apps schism is pretty difficult to live with. -- David Connors da...@connors.me
Re: Win8 Release Preview
You think tablets are mature market? I would think this market is still in nappies. It is still anyone's game. In tech, being 2 years late to market is an eternity. I don't really agree. Windows was late to market and became leader. Excel and Word were late and became leader. iPad was late and became leader. iPhone was late and became leader, until Android which was later and is now leader.
RE: Win8 Release Preview
|Win7 is adequate or better for desktops, Win 8 is less so. | Nope. That you think that is the problem with the detached start menu experience. |All of theses are somewhat hacks to make it perform like the previous version. | They are design changes, and yes they would make the transition to the newer UI features smoother for those coming from win 7. The goal of win 8 is mighty as it tries to find that point of convergence between different form factors. I think they've overshot the mark a bit and need to tune it back to a happier medium. |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of mike smith |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:19 AM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview | |On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au |wrote: | | | IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the windows | phone like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities between | the different form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to me |to | be designed for content consumption not content creation. Where, for | example, is My documents gone ? | | | | |I find it paradoxical that we can have threads dealing with 3, 4, 5 large monitors |to cater to an OS that expects a target of, at best tablet size. | | | There's some weird divides between desktop and metro that really |only | make sense to developer geeks who understand these are different |runtime | platforms: but forcing that differentiation onto consumers seems wrong |to | me. Why should they need to care if their app is metro or not? Why do | running apps all appear when you hit alt+tab, but yet only one subset | appears in the windows desktop taskbar, and another subset in the |metro | taskbar (nb the metro taskbar only shows one of the two apps that are | running if one of them is docked) | | | |It's all about efficient use of large screens. And Metro just isn't. | | | | I think consumers' reaction will be mixed. Tablet users (especially those | with windows phones) will like win 8. | | |Agreed. If Win8 can handle being 4th to market in a fairly mature marketplace. |Being third wasn't terribly useful for us. (disclaimer, this is not the opinion of my |employer, but is personal - assume this disclaimer applies to all my comments, |actually.) | | |Existing users of win 7 that do a lot | of content creation are more likely to have that initial negative reaction | like Greg posted about, one that I've seen a lot of other people express | too. | | | | |Win7 is adequate or better for desktops, Win 8 is less so. | | | I do believe it can be made a lot better. The problem to me seems it's |more | like running metro windows with traditional windows in a VM. There |needs | to be better integration.. | | I really strongly believe that with just a handful of changes the experience | could be a lot better: | | 1. Make the start menu screen a pivot app with pivots that include |running | applications, My Documents . (maybe include recent, favourites etc). |The | running pivot pane would include all running apps as is currently in the | ALT+TAB list. | | 2. Get rid of the metro left pane taskbar (no longer needed if (1) is | implemented, and show all apps in the windows desktop taskbar | | 3. Allow metro apps to be run in windows !!That is, allow them to be |run | in a sizeable window alongside desktop apps. (via right click menu, and | allow for that preference to be saved) | | 4. Allow for flexible docking. The current docking for metro apps is way | too limited. | | 5. Include the start button on the desktop, and when pressed, show the |metro | start menu screen but show it as not quite full screen, so as it has the | appearance of a window (eg top,left at 10, bottom and right in about 20 |then | add a bit of a drop shadow) | | | There's probably more that could be done to improve integration eg why | doesn't the DPI settings also update the metro settings instead today you | have to change metro to Large separately and Large isn't the same |slight | magnification as 125% is; why isn't screen resolution in computer |settings, | instead you have to get to it via desktop or search for control panel etc. I | like the idea of simplification but the current bits feel more like | duplication. | | Anyway, I think win 8 is close, but all the good work done behind the |scenes | to make windows 7 better will be lost to negative reactions to the metro | addition. I'm still hoping they will make some more changes but it doesn't | look like it from the preview, instead it looks like they are rushing to | market
RE: Win8 Release Preview
I'm not sure I get the yearning for a start menu. Maybe I use it differently from others, but the metro screen lays out my commonly used apps nicely, and anything else I need I can find just by typing the first couple of letters of its name. The metro screen comes to the front when I hit the Windows button (like the start menu does in 7) and all my keyboard shortcuts work (and then some). Andrew Coates, ME, MCPD, MCSD MCTS, Developer Evangelist, Microsoft, 1 Epping Road, NORTH RYDE NSW 2113 Ph: +61 (2) 9870 2719 * Mob +61 (416) 134 993 * Fax: +61 (2) 9870 2400 * http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:41 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.aumailto:bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the windows phone like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities between the different form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to me to be designed for content consumption not content creation. Where, for example, is My documents gone ? I think you're right - it is very close. The problem is that there is a lot of traditional desktop functionality that has become a casualty of MS' iPad fear. I reckon if the start menu came back and they got rid of the need for hot spots in the corners it could be a lot more usable. Metro vs desktop apps schism is pretty difficult to live with. -- David Connors da...@connors.memailto:da...@connors.me
Re: Win8 Release Preview
On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Andrew Coates (DPE AUSTRALIA) andrew.coa...@microsoft.com wrote: I’m not sure I get the yearning for a start menu. Maybe I use it differently from others, but the metro screen lays out my commonly used apps nicely, and anything else I need I can find just by typing the first couple of letters of its name. The metro screen comes to the front when I hit the Windows button (like the start menu does in 7) and all my keyboard shortcuts work (and then some). ** I agree with you. The start menu had run it's course. Think of it like this, once you have more than half a dozen programs installed navigating the start menu becomes a nightmare. Trying to navigate through multiple menu levels, remember which option was in which folder. It is painful. The most efficient way to use the start menu is to click on it and type the name of what you want to run. Type 'word' and Microsoft word will pop up, type 'Control Pa..' and the control panel will pop up. This is exactly how the new start screen works. Cut out the rubbish multi level menus and just type what you want. It's so easy. You can navigate manually with the mouse, which is painful. But no more painful than the current start menu, just different. Craig
Re: Win8 Release Preview
http://media.bestofmicro.com/E/F/329703/original/4667.Keyboard_2D00_shortcuts_2D00_for_2D00_Windows_2D00_8_5F00_5756566F.png helps Win+Q = search for apps Win+W = search for settings Win+F = search for files The the first one is the equivalent of the search thingo in the start menu most power users are familiar with. On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Andrew Coates (DPE AUSTRALIA) andrew.coa...@microsoft.com wrote: I’m not sure I get the yearning for a start menu. Maybe I use it differently from others, but the metro screen lays out my commonly used apps nicely, and anything else I need I can find just by typing the first couple of letters of its name. The metro screen comes to the front when I hit the Windows button (like the start menu does in 7) and all my keyboard shortcuts work (and then some). ** ** Andrew Coates, ME, MCPD, MCSD MCTS, Developer Evangelist, Microsoft, 1 Epping Road, NORTH RYDE NSW 2113 Ph: +61 (2) 9870 2719 • Mob +61 (416) 134 993 • Fax: +61 (2) 9870 2400 • http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *David Connors *Sent:* Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:41 AM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: Win8 Release Preview ** ** On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the windows phone like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities between the different form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to me to be designed for content consumption not content creation. Where, for example, is My documents gone ? ** ** I think you're right - it is very close. The problem is that there is a lot of traditional desktop functionality that has become a casualty of MS' iPad fear. ** ** I reckon if the start menu came back and they got rid of the need for hot spots in the corners it could be a lot more usable. ** ** Metro vs desktop apps schism is pretty difficult to live with. ** ** -- David Connors da...@connors.me -- David Connors da...@connors.me
RE: Win8 Release Preview
Typing the first couple of letters works well in windows 7 too ;) The problem with the new start menu is the complete lack of My Documents. Recent mia. Removing the start menu button form the desktop taskbar adds nothing to the user experience, just makes the experience a little less familiar. Not having all apps appear in the taskbar makes it harder to task swap (it's like there's two taskbars instead of one) Not being able to run some apps in a window makes the Burdon on the end user to know the difference between certain kinds of apps. |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Coates (DPE AUSTRALIA) |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:58 AM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview | |I'm not sure I get the yearning for a start menu. Maybe I use it differently from |others, but the metro screen lays out my commonly used apps nicely, and |anything else I need I can find just by typing the first couple of letters of its name. |The metro screen comes to the front when I hit the Windows button (like the |start menu does in 7) and all my keyboard shortcuts work (and then some). | | | |Andrew Coates, ME, MCPD, MCSD MCTS, Developer Evangelist, Microsoft, 1 |Epping Road, NORTH RYDE NSW 2113 |Ph: +61 (2) 9870 2719 . Mob +61 (416) 134 993 . Fax: +61 (2) 9870 2400 . |http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat | | | |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:41 AM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview | | | |On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au |wrote: | |IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the windows phone |like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities between the different |form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to me to be designed for |content consumption not content creation. Where, for example, is My |documents gone ? | | | |I think you're right - it is very close. The problem is that there is a lot of traditional |desktop functionality that has become a casualty of MS' iPad fear. | | | |I reckon if the start menu came back and they got rid of the need for hot spots in |the corners it could be a lot more usable. | | | |Metro vs desktop apps schism is pretty difficult to live with. | | | |-- |David Connors |da...@connors.me
RE: Win8 Release Preview
I fear the new start screen will get just as messy as the old start menu did. In fact, the lack of folders or popups from the start menu will mean a lot of horizontal scrolling will be needed for traditional desktops. |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Craig van Nieuwkerk |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 10:09 AM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview | | | |On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Andrew Coates (DPE AUSTRALIA) |andrew.coa...@microsoft.com wrote: | | | I'm not sure I get the yearning for a start menu. Maybe I use it differently |from others, but the metro screen lays out my commonly used apps nicely, and |anything else I need I can find just by typing the first couple of letters of its name. |The metro screen comes to the front when I hit the Windows button (like the |start menu does in 7) and all my keyboard shortcuts work (and then some). | | | | |I agree with you. The start menu had run it's course. Think of it like this, once you |have more than half a dozen programs installed navigating the start menu |becomes a nightmare. Trying to navigate through multiple menu levels, |remember which option was in which folder. It is painful. The most efficient way |to use the start menu is to click on it and type the name of what you want to run. |Type 'word' and Microsoft word will pop up, type 'Control Pa..' and the control |panel will pop up. This is exactly how the new start screen works. Cut out the |rubbish multi level menus and just type what you want. It's so easy. You can |navigate manually with the mouse, which is painful. But no more painful than the |current start menu, just different. | |Craig
RE: Win8 Release Preview
There's a bug with that at present you can cycle from Win+Q to Win+W and Win+F nd between Win+F and Win+W but not back to Win+Q |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 10:10 AM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview | |http://media.bestofmicro.com/E/F/329703/original/4667.Keyboard_2D00_short |cuts_2D00_for_2D00_Windows_2D00_8_5F00_5756566F.png helps | |Win+Q = search for apps |Win+W = search for settings |Win+F = search for files | |The the first one is the equivalent of the search thingo in the start menu most |power users are familiar with. | | |On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Andrew Coates (DPE AUSTRALIA) |andrew.coa...@microsoft.com wrote: | | | I'm not sure I get the yearning for a start menu. Maybe I use it differently |from others, but the metro screen lays out my commonly used apps nicely, and |anything else I need I can find just by typing the first couple of letters of its name. |The metro screen comes to the front when I hit the Windows button (like the |start menu does in 7) and all my keyboard shortcuts work (and then some). | | | | Andrew Coates, ME, MCPD, MCSD MCTS, Developer Evangelist, |Microsoft, 1 Epping Road, NORTH RYDE NSW 2113 | Ph: +61 (2) 9870 2719 tel:%2B61%20%282%29%209870%202719 . |Mob +61 (416) 134 993 tel:%2B61%20%28416%29%20134%20993 . Fax: +61 |(2) 9870 2400 tel:%2B61%20%282%29%209870%202400 . |http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat | | | | From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors | Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:41 AM | | | To: ozDotNet | Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview | | | | | | On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Bill McCarthy |bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: | | IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the windows | phone like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities between | the different form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to me |to | be designed for content consumption not content creation. Where, for | example, is My documents gone ? | | | | I think you're right - it is very close. The problem is that there is a lot of |traditional desktop functionality that has become a casualty of MS' iPad fear. | | | | I reckon if the start menu came back and they got rid of the need for hot |spots in the corners it could be a lot more usable. | | | | Metro vs desktop apps schism is pretty difficult to live with. | | | | | | -- | David Connors | da...@connors.me | | | | |-- |David Connors |da...@connors.me
Re: Win8 Release Preview
Only if you navigate by mouse. Type, don't click. On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: I fear the new start screen will get just as messy as the old start menu did. In fact, the lack of folders or popups from the start menu will mean a lot of horizontal scrolling will be needed for traditional desktops.
Re: Win8 Release Preview
On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:42 AM, Craig van Nieuwkerk crai...@gmail.com wrote: You think tablets are mature market? I would think this market is still in nappies. It is still anyone's game. In tech, being 2 years late to market is an eternity. I don't really agree. Windows was late to market and became leader. Excel and Word were late and became leader. iPad was late and became leader. iPhone was late and became leader, until Android which was later and is now leader. Some of the examples there span DOS/CLI - GUI, a fundamental shift. We're talking another such shift here, but is it needed or wanted? Metro's a good idea for a pad/phone, but is it good enough to make space in a market that has iOS and Android? It's not really needed for a desktop. I see what Microsoft want, a seamless environment that can cover all, and include Office, most likely. Will it really be seamless between a horizontally used touch display, and a vertically used display with mouse? -- Meski http://courteous.ly/aAOZcv Going to Starbucks for coffee is like going to prison for sex. Sure, you'll get it, but it's going to be rough - Adam Hills
Re: Win8 Release Preview
I installed win95 on my home pc when I was a teenager. After about 1/2 hour of not understanding the differences the impatient teenager in me went back to dos and typed deltree win95... Since then I've decided to embrace the fact that there's generally pretty good reasons why big movers like MS Apple make the decisions they do and I learnt to accept the fact that the cheese moves, regularly, and that I should either move with it or go find something else that I like better. MS is trying to make the platform better for the consumer, just like we're trying to make apps, sites, whatever work the best that we can for the users. Obviously they have an interest in keeping everyone happy (inc devs) but the consumers are the ones driving the market so it's up to us to go with the flow, keep up and embrace the changes. There are choices if one day I decide that I don't enjoy my job, or I can make more money doing something else. On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Craig van Nieuwkerk crai...@gmail.comwrote: Only if you navigate by mouse. Type, don't click. On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: I fear the new start screen will get just as messy as the old start menu did. In fact, the lack of folders or popups from the start menu will mean a lot of horizontal scrolling will be needed for traditional desktops.
Re: Win8 Release Preview
I just started thinking of that metro screen as a full-screen start menu and my yearning for one went away. Joseph On 07/06/2012, at 9:58 AM, Andrew Coates (DPE AUSTRALIA) andrew.coa...@microsoft.com wrote: I’m not sure I get the yearning for a start menu. Maybe I use it differently from others, but the metro screen lays out my commonly used apps nicely, and anything else I need I can find just by typing the first couple of letters of its name. The metro screen comes to the front when I hit the Windows button (like the start menu does in 7) and all my keyboard shortcuts work (and then some). Andrew Coates, ME, MCPD, MCSD MCTS, Developer Evangelist, Microsoft, 1 Epping Road, NORTH RYDE NSW 2113 Ph: +61 (2) 9870 2719 • Mob +61 (416) 134 993 • Fax: +61 (2) 9870 2400 • http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:41 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the windows phone like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities between the different form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to me to be designed for content consumption not content creation. Where, for example, is My documents gone ? I think you're right - it is very close. The problem is that there is a lot of traditional desktop functionality that has become a casualty of MS' iPad fear. I reckon if the start menu came back and they got rid of the need for hot spots in the corners it could be a lot more usable. Metro vs desktop apps schism is pretty difficult to live with. -- David Connors da...@connors.me
RE: Win8 Release Preview
And that as said previously is the same in windows 7. So the notion that the new start menu addresses the problem with too many entries on the old start menu is false. |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Craig van Nieuwkerk |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 10:39 AM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview | |Only if you navigate by mouse. Type, don't click. | | |On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au |wrote: | | | I fear the new start screen will get just as messy as the old start menu | did. In fact, the lack of folders or popups from the start menu will mean a | lot of horizontal scrolling will be needed for traditional desktops. | |
Re: Win8 Release Preview
On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Greg Kennedy gkenne...@gmail.com wrote: I installed win95 on my home pc when I was a teenager. After about 1/2 hour of not understanding the differences the impatient teenager in me went back to dos and typed deltree win95... Heh. I've been using Windows since about version 1 or 2 (when were the versions different for different processors 286/386?) I've always been at least somewhat enthusiastic about succeeding versions, (well, maybe not Millennium Edition)) but I'm looking at 8 with distinct apprehension, given I'm likely to have to code for it) Since then I've decided to embrace the fact that there's generally pretty good reasons why big movers like MS Apple make the decisions they do and I Almost an appeal to authority there. learnt to accept the fact that the cheese moves, regularly, and that I should either move with it or go find something else that I like better. MS is trying to make the platform better for the consumer, just like we're Perhaps the first-time user. But making a consumer re-learn? We're likely to be the most computer-literate portion of the market, if there's dissent here I can scarcely imagine how users that have to think about how to start an app are going to feel. trying to make apps, sites, whatever work the best that we can for the users. Obviously they have an interest in keeping everyone happy (inc devs) but the consumers are the ones driving the market so it's up to us to go with the flow, keep up and embrace the changes. There are choices if one day I decide that I don't enjoy my job, or I can make more money doing something else. Unlikely. On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Craig van Nieuwkerk crai...@gmail.com wrote: Only if you navigate by mouse. Type, don't click. And if it's a tablet? On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: I fear the new start screen will get just as messy as the old start menu did. In fact, the lack of folders or popups from the start menu will mean a lot of horizontal scrolling will be needed for traditional desktops. -- Meski http://courteous.ly/aAOZcv Going to Starbucks for coffee is like going to prison for sex. Sure, you'll get it, but it's going to be rough - Adam Hills
RE: Win8 Release Preview
It is, but how you get to it and what it contains is different. Live tiles are nice (pity they don't apply to desktop apps including outlook), but we've lost recent, popup folders; and we've got to go different ways to find different settings; are faced with two taskbars instead of one; and the end user needs to know if the application they are running is windows or windows RT based to know which taskbar to look in. Like I said, it's close, but as is it's going to a get a massive negative consumer backlash for desktop machines; and probably an even more massive wait and see from corporate use. Imagine all the documents that have to be changed to remove references to clicking on the start button ;) |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Cooney |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 10:43 AM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview | |I just started thinking of that metro screen as a full-screen start menu and my |yearning for one went away. | |Joseph | |On 07/06/2012, at 9:58 AM, Andrew Coates (DPE AUSTRALIA) |andrew.coa...@microsoft.com wrote: | | | | I’m not sure I get the yearning for a start menu. Maybe I use it differently |from others, but the metro screen lays out my commonly used apps nicely, and |anything else I need I can find just by typing the first couple of letters of its name. |The metro screen comes to the front when I hit the Windows button (like the |start menu does in 7) and all my keyboard shortcuts work (and then some). | | | | Andrew Coates, ME, MCPD, MCSD MCTS, Developer Evangelist, |Microsoft, 1 Epping Road, NORTH RYDE NSW 2113 | Ph: +61 (2) 9870 2719 • Mob +61 (416) 134 993 • Fax: +61 (2) 9870 2400 • |http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat | | | | From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors | Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:41 AM | To: ozDotNet | Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview | | | | On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Bill McCarthy |bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: | | IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the windows | phone like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities between | the different form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to me |to | be designed for content consumption not content creation. Where, for | example, is My documents gone ? | | | | I think you're right - it is very close. The problem is that there is a lot of |traditional desktop functionality that has become a casualty of MS' iPad fear. | | | | I reckon if the start menu came back and they got rid of the need for hot |spots in the corners it could be a lot more usable. | | | | Metro vs desktop apps schism is pretty difficult to live with. | | | | -- | David Connors | da...@connors.me
Re: Win8 Release Preview
Popup's on a phone or tablet? On my Windows Phone I have never seem a popup dialog. And on my iPad popup alerts are pretty simple to click. On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: Well worse. Popups area lot more keyboard/mouse friendly than having to horizontally scroll
Re: Win8 Release Preview
Only if you navigate by mouse. Type, don't click. And if it's a tablet? Swipe and touch. I have a three year old that mastered it a day. My one year old is already getting the hang of it. It is sooo easy. This whole discussion reminds me of when Office 2007 came out and everyone cried that office workers the world over would be dumb founded. Guess what, after 5 minutes they all worked it out.
RE: Win8 Release Preview
You totally missed the point that on the desktop you will have to horizontally scroll. Windows 8 is NOT windows phone. Screens sizes are massively different. Windows 8 requires a minimum of 1024 x 768, or 1366 x 768 to include snap. The design of windows 8 is for an experience convergence not lowest common denominator. |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Craig van Nieuwkerk |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 11:06 AM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview | |Popup's on a phone or tablet? On my Windows Phone I have never seem a popup |dialog. And on my iPad popup alerts are pretty simple to click. | | |On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au |wrote: | | | Well worse. Popups area lot more keyboard/mouse friendly than having |to | horizontally scroll | |
Re: Win8 Release Preview
On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: You totally missed the point that on the desktop you will have to horizontally scroll. You don't have to horizontally scroll, just type what you want.
RE: Win8 Release Preview
So vertical wheel scrolls horizontally ? I wondered what the design was for the news reader app which is a pain to scroll on my laptop. Admittedly I'm using VMWare to run it so the touchpad experience is not good. |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 11:10 AM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview | |You know that the mouse wheel will scroll horizontally on the start screen, right? | |Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP - Windows Phone |Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this |email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose |or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not |guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions |expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built |to Roam Pty Ltd. | | |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 11:03 AM |To: 'ozDotNet' |Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview | |Well worse. Popups area lot more keyboard/mouse friendly than having to |horizontally scroll | ||-Original Message- ||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- ||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Craig van Nieuwkerk ||Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 10:58 AM ||To: ozDotNet ||Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview || ||Exactly. It hasn't fixed the problem of manual navigation, just changed it. |But in ||the process made it more tablet/phone friendly. || || ||On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Bill McCarthy |bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au ||wrote: || || || And that as said previously is the same in windows 7. So the notion |that ||the || new start menu addresses the problem with too many entries on the |old ||start || menu is false. || || |
RE: Win8 Release Preview
The issue when building for Win8 is that you have to think about all the possible forms of input. The guidelines are actually pretty good (sorry Greg, you indicated that you thought it's more confusing now, I completely disagree as the metro guidelines are very strong) but it's easy to overlook mouse, keyboard, touch, scroll etc. Suspect that might have been the case with the news reader... Personally I wasn't a big fan of the move to horizontal scrolling to start with - we've all been so conditioned to scanning lists vertically it's a bit of a mind shift to work horizontally. I do understand the change and actually think it makes for better touch-first apps. As has been pointed out already, this doesn't always mean that they're optimised for those of us who are desk bound. Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP - Windows Phone Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd does not guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or opinions of Built to Roam Pty Ltd. -Original Message- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 11:19 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview So vertical wheel scrolls horizontally ? I wondered what the design was for the news reader app which is a pain to scroll on my laptop. Admittedly I'm using VMWare to run it so the touchpad experience is not good. |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nick Randolph |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 11:10 AM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview | |You know that the mouse wheel will scroll horizontally on the start |screen, right? | |Nick Randolph | Built to Roam Pty Ltd | Microsoft MVP - Windows Phone |Development | +61 412 413 425 | @btroam The information contained in |this email is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you |may not disclose |or use the information in this email in any way. Built to Roam Pty Ltd |does not |guarantee the integrity of any emails or attached files. The views or opinions |expressed are the author's own and may not reflect the views or |opinions of Built |to Roam Pty Ltd. | | |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 11:03 AM |To: 'ozDotNet' |Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview | |Well worse. Popups area lot more keyboard/mouse friendly than having to |horizontally scroll | ||-Original Message- ||From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- ||boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Craig van Nieuwkerk ||Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 10:58 AM ||To: ozDotNet ||Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview || ||Exactly. It hasn't fixed the problem of manual navigation, just ||changed it. |But in ||the process made it more tablet/phone friendly. || || ||On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Bill McCarthy |bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au ||wrote: || || || And that as said previously is the same in windows 7. So the notion |that ||the || new start menu addresses the problem with too many entries on the |old ||start || menu is false. || || |
RE: Win8 Release Preview
Exactly. Once you get over the initial shock for the transition from the desktop to it (which I can assure you, was much worse in earlier builds – the desktop used to spin), you get used it. One more thing, our view is very skewed because we’re developers and use very “classic” bound apps. As more and more mainline apps become “metrofied” I think it will feel very natural to navigate whether using a mouse, keyboard or touch, and the transition between desktop and metro will become less frequent. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Cooney Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 5:43 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview I just started thinking of that metro screen as a full-screen start menu and my yearning for one went away. Joseph On 07/06/2012, at 9:58 AM, Andrew Coates (DPE AUSTRALIA) andrew.coa...@microsoft.commailto:andrew.coa...@microsoft.com wrote: I’m not sure I get the yearning for a start menu. Maybe I use it differently from others, but the metro screen lays out my commonly used apps nicely, and anything else I need I can find just by typing the first couple of letters of its name. The metro screen comes to the front when I hit the Windows button (like the start menu does in 7) and all my keyboard shortcuts work (and then some). Andrew Coates, ME, MCPD, MCSD MCTS, Developer Evangelist, Microsoft, 1 Epping Road, NORTH RYDE NSW 2113 Ph: +61 (2) 9870 2719 • Mob +61 (416) 134 993 • Fax: +61 (2) 9870 2400 • http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com]mailto:[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:41 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.aumailto:bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the windows phone like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities between the different form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to me to be designed for content consumption not content creation. Where, for example, is My documents gone ? I think you're right - it is very close. The problem is that there is a lot of traditional desktop functionality that has become a casualty of MS' iPad fear. I reckon if the start menu came back and they got rid of the need for hot spots in the corners it could be a lot more usable. Metro vs desktop apps schism is pretty difficult to live with. -- David Connors da...@connors.memailto:da...@connors.me
RE: Win8 Release Preview
It is the initial shock that is the problem. Take the example of Vista. I honestly didn't mind Vista; sure there were a few too many are you sure? 's , but it was pretty good. I think the benefits far outweighed any of the negatives, but that was a view of the security issues that had been plaguing windows. The general reaction however was a LOT of negativity. Oddly enough people now seem happy with Win 7 which really was like a service pack to Vista, although some still grumble muttering something about Vista g There's no doubt our view is tainted. But I can't apply enough rose colour tint to make me believe it is acceptable for the user to have to know what is a metro app and what is a desktop app and that the navigating to them whilst running is completely different ( a lot of people don't use the keyboard shortcuts, they use the taskbar) For those that buy a tablet first, then later buy windows 8 on a desktop/laptop or at work, their experience will be totally different. But for those coming from windows 7 they will be confronted with initial shock. And I think that's a real pity. It just generates negativity and all the good things are missed (eg how many conversations have you seen about the new task manager). I don't see any benefit in removing the start button, I don't see any benefit in hiding metro apps from the taskbar whilst ALT+TAB shows them. Again it is like they have overshot the mark, just as most would agree now they did with Vista. |-Original Message- |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Kean |Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 11:56 AM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: RE: Win8 Release Preview | |Exactly. Once you get over the initial shock for the transition from the desktop to |it (which I can assure you, was much worse in earlier builds – the desktop used to |spin), you get used it. One more thing, our view is very skewed because we’re |developers and use very “classic” bound apps. As more and more mainline apps |become “metrofied” I think it will feel very natural to navigate whether using a |mouse, keyboard or touch, and the transition between desktop and metro will |become less frequent. | | | |From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Cooney |Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 5:43 PM |To: ozDotNet |Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview | | | |I just started thinking of that metro screen as a full-screen start menu and my |yearning for one went away. | |Joseph | | |On 07/06/2012, at 9:58 AM, Andrew Coates (DPE AUSTRALIA) |andrew.coa...@microsoft.com wrote: | | I’m not sure I get the yearning for a start menu. Maybe I use it differently |from others, but the metro screen lays out my commonly used apps nicely, and |anything else I need I can find just by typing the first couple of letters of its name. |The metro screen comes to the front when I hit the Windows button (like the |start menu does in 7) and all my keyboard shortcuts work (and then some). | | | | Andrew Coates, ME, MCPD, MCSD MCTS, Developer Evangelist, |Microsoft, 1 Epping Road, NORTH RYDE NSW 2113 | Ph: +61 (2) 9870 2719 • Mob +61 (416) 134 993 • Fax: +61 (2) 9870 2400 • |http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat http://blogs.msdn.com/acoat | | | | From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet- |boun...@ozdotnet.com] mailto:[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] |On Behalf Of David Connors | Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:41 AM | To: ozDotNet | Subject: Re: Win8 Release Preview | | | | On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Bill McCarthy |bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: | | IMO, windows 8 is close, but it could be a lot better. I love the windows | phone like UI **concept**, and I love the idea of the similarities between | the different form factors, BUT the current release preview looks to me |to | be designed for content consumption not content creation. Where, for | example, is My documents gone ? | | | | I think you're right - it is very close. The problem is that there is a lot of |traditional desktop functionality that has become a casualty of MS' iPad fear. | | | | I reckon if the start menu came back and they got rid of the need for hot |spots in the corners it could be a lot more usable. | | | | Metro vs desktop apps schism is pretty difficult to live with. | | | | -- | David Connors | da...@connors.me
Win8 Release Preview
The latest Win8 preview is available - I saw an AU URL mentioned somewhere. But in reading the Building Windows 8 blog article http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/05/18/creating-the-windows-8-user-e xperience.aspx the link to a video http://cdn-smooth.ms-studiosmedia.com/news/mp4_hq/1007961_Win8ConsumerPrevie wFullEvent_030712_HQ.mp4 points to a 4.8Gb file, and it's not buffering from that site (I wanted to skip forward 1:13:00 = an hour?, and take a look). Has anyone a link to some video of the latest release's features, etc? I haven't downloaded the install ISO for this release, and don't intend to at least for a while. The rumour is that Aero features have disappeared / will disappear entirely. _ Ian Thomas Victoria Park, Western Australia
RE: Win8 Release Preview
The latest Win8 preview is available - I saw an AU URL mentioned somewhere. I've been waiting for a Win8 preview disc to arrive as a part of my MSDN Premium subscription, but it never does. I suspect things have changed and these days developers are expected to download such previews. Does anyone know if my suspicions are true? In the old days I used to get alpha, beta release discs clogging my letterbox. If I knew for certain I'm not going to get a Win8 disc then I would have fired-off the 3GB ISO download months ago. Greg
