[ozmidwifery] Cs story
I am a mum whose first birthwas by caesarean, the next birth with medical interventions (forceps etc), and then a natural vaginal birth. Pretty much done it all! It really concerns me when people like Tracy Curio can make statements like a vaginal birth is not a life changing essential rite of passage into mother or woman hoodwhen she has never done it! Women who make comments about experiences they have not lived should never make blanket comments. To say something like that is not onlyarrogant but ignorant. Nothing compares to birthing a baby naturally, with no complications, with no fear and surrounded by those people who truly care for you and your baby. There is nothing like it, there is no way to describe it. Complicated vaginal birth is something that I have experienced twice, it is for that reason that I feel that I can accurately compare the experiences.For me to finally birth a baby naturally and without fear or complications was a major accomplishment and healed many sorrows. I feel that it is understandable for Vanessa to chose her caesarean birth, but is her experience reflective of the general population? Many women do have traumatic vaginal birth experiences, butshouldwe not be asking why? Why is it that some hospitals have induction rates of over 50% and coincidently have cs rates of 35% to 40%? Is there not correlationin this? Why is it that all birth centres around the country are booked out continuously? Why the newly introduced midwifery group practice in Adelaide is having to double it's numbers next year from 500 women per year to 1000 due to the demand for midwifery led care. What is happening in our labour wards under the medical model of care that makes major abdominal surgery a preferred option? The story presented by 60 minutes was fraught with incorrect information: pelvic floor being 'saved' by cs...it is more likely pregnancy hormones, botched or poorly timed medical interventions like forceps and episiotomies, and the lack of pelvic floor exercising by women that causes stress incontinences etc; and the story'stotal exclusion of the serious complications from cs that are sadly becoming 'less rare' as the more cs are done...life threatening events such as serious placentalcomplications andevenlinks with still birth infuture pregnancies. Such biased and incorrect information being shown to our birthing mothers is a sad reflection of our society loosing the sacredness and importance of birth. On one aspect you are reporting caesareans as being as normal as a vaginal birth (however you only acknowledged the complicated vaginal birth scenario) but not once did the reporter or those involved in the story refer to caesarean as a caesarean birth. C-Section, or caesarean section is the medical terminology.We don't call the baby the foetus in every day speech do we? I watched the segment with interest, but sadly was left disappointed and thinking once again: "you just don't get it!" Jo Bainbridge Nairne, South Australia
[ozmidwifery] 60 minutes.
Mmm, just how much is vaginal birth to blame for that serious medical issue of a weak pelvic floor? I wish they had of gone into the evidencethey just make it sound like it is the traditionalist's word against the ob's. Did anyone else think Tracey Curo looked painfully thin? And Justine you have beautiful children and well done :) Jayne -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes.
Excellent footage Justine. I was disappointed with the slant of the whole segment though. We are being presented with promotions of caesarean birth. Misinformation, misinformation, misinformation. We know that the number of women seeking elective caesarean births for their first birth is around 1% (I mean truly elective i.e. by choice with no medical/obstetric reason such as malpresentation etc.) and yet it was portrayed as being the overall c/s rate that is, around 30%. They (some of the obstetric community, not all but some very vocal and public ob's) are doing with c/s what plastic surgeons have done with botox and plastic surgery for the last 10 years. It is all about the marketplace and consumerism. Everytime we participate in their so called debate we end up in an infomercial for obstetric care and caesaren birth normalisation. And you know I have no problem with women like Tracey Curo having the right to have an elective c/s, in privacy. It is after all their bodies not mine. Let us just not give them the space to promote it by pretending to be participating in a public debate/discussion. Please note, I am not for denying them the right to have their say, I am all for freedom of speech. I don't want to debate her womanhood or mothering abilities or even her extreme thinness. But I do not want her birth choices to become the only options for my daughters. We seem to be in a turf war over what will a normal birth look like/be and the ever shrinking number of new mothers. h! I have to remember to breathe. marilyn - Original Message - From: jayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 5:20 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes. Mmm, just how much is vaginal birth to blame for that serious medical issue of a weak pelvic floor? I wish they had of gone into the evidencethey just make it sound like it is the traditionalist's word against the ob's. Did anyone else think Tracey Curo looked painfully thin? And Justine you have beautiful children and well done :) Jayne -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes.
Yes BREATHE Marilyn! lol jo - Original Message - From: Marilyn Kleidon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes. Excellent footage Justine. I was disappointed with the slant of the whole segment though. We are being presented with promotions of caesarean birth. Misinformation, misinformation, misinformation. We know that the number of women seeking elective caesarean births for their first birth is around 1% (I mean truly elective i.e. by choice with no medical/obstetric reason such as malpresentation etc.) and yet it was portrayed as being the overall c/s rate that is, around 30%. They (some of the obstetric community, not all but some very vocal and public ob's) are doing with c/s what plastic surgeons have done with botox and plastic surgery for the last 10 years. It is all about the marketplace and consumerism. Everytime we participate in their so called debate we end up in an infomercial for obstetric care and caesaren birth normalisation. And you know I have no problem with women like Tracey Curo having the right to have an elective c/s, in privacy. It is after all their bodies not mine. Let us just not give them the space to promote it by pretending to be participating in a public debate/discussion. Please note, I am not for denying them the right to have their say, I am all for freedom of speech. I don't want to debate her womanhood or mothering abilities or even her extreme thinness. But I do not want her birth choices to become the only options for my daughters. We seem to be in a turf war over what will a normal birth look like/be and the ever shrinking number of new mothers. h! I have to remember to breathe. marilyn - Original Message - From: jayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 5:20 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes. Mmm, just how much is vaginal birth to blame for that serious medical issue of a weak pelvic floor? I wish they had of gone into the evidencethey just make it sound like it is the traditionalist's word against the ob's. Did anyone else think Tracey Curo looked painfully thin? And Justine you have beautiful children and well done :) Jayne -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] birth story
If up to 25% of births are by c-section, why were 75% of those interviewed discussing the benefits of such. Normal vaginal birth is just that, normal, side effects- healthy woman, healthy baby. Midwives are the 'experts' of normal birth- where was their representation? Cath (midwife).
[ozmidwifery] caesarean section
Hi, I'm new to the list but had to add a bit to the caesarean section issue. Doing an assignment last year we had to analyse some perinatal statistics (Qld). In the last 30 years the maternal mortality rate has slowly and steadily increased (figures up to 1996) and while they didn't give a breakdown on the maternal deaths, surely this has to be due to the slow but steady increase in caesarean section? It is unbelievable that in 30 years of medical advances that more women are dying - and no one is looking for the cause. I didn't see the 60 minutes program, but was there any mention of the increased maternalmortality with caesareans? Michelle Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes Hi All Yes they got us again (despite 5hrs of talking with them and them agreeing) What is the worst thing is I had no idea that Vanessa OGorman or Tracey Curio were going to be on (despite 2 requests as to who else was on and a confirmation of who with no word of these 2!) I would not have gone if I knew about Vanessa! Also I tried very hard to line up a midwife (they spoke with her and said oh she says all the same things you say!!) I lined up 2 supportive Obs (one who has done 400 vaginal breaches) and is a great guy, they said they would interview him, they didnt. I think it is so important to attack them on their own story heading, Mothers Choice yeah what choice! Perhaps Media Watch may be interested! Write your letters to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Justine
[ozmidwifery] Contact Details for 60 Minutes and Media Watch
Title: Contact Details for 60 Minutes and Media Watch Dear All I trust thosecomments on tonights 6 0minutes have also gone to them If you feel as I do the bias and misrepresentation of the facts let alone the imbalance of the time and presentation and insult to women and midwives!!! A natural Child birth Advocate (read nutter) who births at home against 2 well read journalists and a prominent Dr . on prime TV can not go undebated !!Send a (CC) copy to David Marr at Media watch as Our last outcry to the Broadcast Authority re their misinformation on Today was unchallenged Here are the addresses Denise Hynd [EMAIL PROTECTED]Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Mail: Media Watch, GPO Box 9994, In your Capital CityPhone: 02 8333 4454Fax: 02 8333 4962
Re: [ozmidwifery] caesarean section
No nor the risk to the baby quite the reverse C/s is a safe choice for women and it saved and does save many babies!! - Original Message - From: Michelle Windsor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 9:52 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] caesarean section Hi, I'm new to the list but had to add a bit to the caesarean section issue. Doing an assignment last year we had to analyse some perinatal statistics (Qld). In the last 30 years the maternal mortality rate has slowly and steadily increased (figures up to 1996) and while they didn't give a breakdown on the maternal deaths, surely this has to be due to the slow but steady increase in caesarean section? It is unbelievable that in 30 years of medical advances that more women are dying - and no one is looking for the cause. I didn't see the 60 minutes program, but was there any mention of the increased maternalmortality with caesareans? Michelle Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
Re: [ozmidwifery] thanks
Fiona Thank you for the informative response. Now the date in this data is interesting for midwives were probably the major carers of labouring women and new babies but still a male's name is applied to the contents of the cord between a newborn and it's mother!! You think he might have named it in honour of his mother , wife or family midwife?? I must tell my son Thomas!! Still I remain amazed at the treasure trove of information and informative people on this list Thank you Denise - Original Message - From: Fiona Rumble [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] thanks Thomas Wharton Related books at Amazon.com: Thomas Wharton's Adenographia By: Stephen Freer (Editor), $149,50 Buy now» English anatomist, born August 31, 1614, Winston-on-Tees, Durham county; died November 15, 1673, London. Associated eponyms: Wharton's duct The duct of the submandibular salivary gland opening into the mouth at side of the frenum linguae. Wharton's jelly A gelatinous intercellular substance which is the primitive mucoid connective tissue of the umbilical cord. Biography: Thomas Wharton was the son of John Wharton and Elizabeth Hodson. He studied at Pembroke College, Cambridge, Trinity College, Oxford, and at Bolton, Lancashire. A supporter of the republican cause, Wharton obtained his M.D. at Oxford on May 7, 1647, after the city had surrendered to Cromwell's army. Thereafter he had a medical practice in London, where he worked with John Bathurst, Oliver Cromwell's physician and was elected a fellow of the Royal College of Physicians on December 23, 1650. Wharton served as one of its censors six times between 1658 and 1673 and gave the Goulstonian lectures in January 1654. He was very successful and from 1649 was associated with St. Thomas's Hospital, where he was appointed physician on November 20, 1657. In 1656 he published, at his own expense, his Latin treatise Adenographia, a description of the glands of the entire body, which he dedicated to the College of Physicians. Adenographia gave the first thorough account of the glands of the human body, which Wharton classified as excretory, reductive, and nutrient. He differentiated the viscera from the glands and explained their relationship, describing the spleen and pancreas. Wharton discovered the duct of the submaxillary salivary gland and the jelly of the umbilical cord, both of which are named for him; he also provided the first adequate account of the thyroid and gave it that name. He explained the role of saliva in mastication and digestion but considered that the function of certain glands, such as the adrenals and the thyroid, was to restore to the veins certain humors that were not useful to the nerves, and that one function of the thyroid was to fill the neck and make it shapely. Much of Wharton's research was performed on animals: he mentions dissection of calves, and Izaak Walton published his description of an anglerfish (Lophius). Wharton's son Thomas II became a clergyman, but both his grandson George and great-grandson Thomas III, became prominent London physicians. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Wharton
Sorry Alexandra not Menna - Original Message - From: A Menna [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 11:05 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] Wharton Hi, I am a Childbirth Educator in training living in America and have been lurking for some time and truly enjoying the exchange here. I was fascinated by the question of who Wharton's jelly was named after and found this link after doing a google search: http://www.whonamedit.com/synd.cfm/2298.html Unfortunately not a woman Regards, Alexandra -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes Dear Justine, Intelligent veiwers will see just in terms of time and relative presentation of interviews, Liz Hayes empathy that the program was biased. Trouble is how many will analyse it?? Two prominent journalists both who were "very informed' of the horror alternatives and one who lost a baby from a determined effort to have natural birth but saved the next with a C/s and prominent doctor how can any natural childbirth advocate speak out against them How can any one speak out and suggestbias let alone it was alsonegligent and insulting to anyone who does not agree with the right of any and all woman to choosevaginal by pass surgery -hang the costs or consequences to the majority of women and our community!! Hang the wonders of childbirth, and the wishes and the efforts of the majority of pregnant, all the research about what is safe and the risks of intervention, let alone surgery and 30 national enquiries, escalating costs, the pain of mothers and babies and now increasing maternal deaths !! Let alonesidelining and dismissing midwives "she only had a midwife" How low can journalists sink??More importantly can we let this one go publicly unchallenged?? Denise - Original Message - From: Justine Caines To: OzMid List Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes Hi AllYes they got us again (despite 5hrs of talking with them and them agreeing) What is the worst thing is I had no idea that Vanessa OGorman or Tracey Curio were going to be on (despite 2 requests as to who else was on and a confirmation of who with no word of these 2!) I would not have gone if I knew about Vanessa!Also I tried very hard to line up a midwife (they spoke with her and said oh she says all the same things you say!!) I lined up 2 supportive Obs (one who has done 400 vaginal breaches) and is a great guy, they said they would interview him, they didnt. I think it is so important to attack them on their own story heading, Mothers Choice yeah what choice!Perhaps Media Watch may be interested!Write your letters to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Justine
Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes I do firmly believe it was a(n) paid/unpaid infomercial for caesarean birth and obstetric care. Normal birth in a technological age is in their (am I paranoid?) sites! marilyn - Original Message - From: Denise Hynd To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 8:18 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes Dear Justine, Intelligent veiwers will see just in terms of time and relative presentation of interviews, Liz Hayes empathy that the program was biased. Trouble is how many will analyse it?? Two prominent journalists both who were "very informed' of the horror alternatives and one who lost a baby from a determined effort to have natural birth but saved the next with a C/s and prominent doctor how can any natural childbirth advocate speak out against them How can any one speak out and suggestbias let alone it was alsonegligent and insulting to anyone who does not agree with the right of any and all woman to choosevaginal by pass surgery -hang the costs or consequences to the majority of women and our community!! Hang the wonders of childbirth, and the wishes and the efforts of the majority of pregnant, all the research about what is safe and the risks of intervention, let alone surgery and 30 national enquiries, escalating costs, the pain of mothers and babies and now increasing maternal deaths !! Let alonesidelining and dismissing midwives "she only had a midwife" How low can journalists sink??More importantly can we let this one go publicly unchallenged?? Denise - Original Message - From: Justine Caines To: OzMid List Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes Hi AllYes they got us again (despite 5hrs of talking with them and them agreeing) What is the worst thing is I had no idea that Vanessa OGorman or Tracey Curio were going to be on (despite 2 requests as to who else was on and a confirmation of who with no word of these 2!) I would not have gone if I knew about Vanessa!Also I tried very hard to line up a midwife (they spoke with her and said oh she says all the same things you say!!) I lined up 2 supportive Obs (one who has done 400 vaginal breaches) and is a great guy, they said they would interview him, they didnt. I think it is so important to attack them on their own story heading, Mothers Choice yeah what choice!Perhaps Media Watch may be interested!Write your letters to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Justine
Re: [ozmidwifery] caesarean section
MIchelle: I would urge you to go actually read the case studies around these maternal mortality stats. The studies are also on the web site, at least they were because I downloaded them a couple of years ago. What I found/interpreted were many very ill women with various cardiovascular disorders plus women with rapidly escalating pre-eclampsi/eclampsia and one immediate postpartum eclamptic seizure (after an NVB and early d/c). For most of the women who died it would seem to me that caesarean birth was their only option for surviving childbirth, in another time they would probably not attempted to conceive. In thinking about this I have wondered for a while how this increasing maternal mortalityis related to the increasing c/s rate, simply because these women were true cases of needing c/s in other words they were definetly not elective c/s nor did any of the cases represent unnecessary c/s, at least not to my mind. I now think there is an indirect link. Perhaps, in the ether of the promotion of the choice and safety of caesarean birth women who otherwise would have considered themselves too ill to undergo pregnancy and childbirth consider childbearing a possibility and then it becomes a probability. I am sure there are other possibilities. marilyn - Original Message - From: Michelle Windsor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 6:52 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] caesarean section Hi, I'm new to the list but had to add a bit to the caesarean section issue. Doing an assignment last year we had to analyse some perinatal statistics (Qld). In the last 30 years the maternal mortality rate has slowly and steadily increased (figures up to 1996) and while they didn't give a breakdown on the maternal deaths, surely this has to be due to the slow but steady increase in caesarean section? It is unbelievable that in 30 years of medical advances that more women are dying - and no one is looking for the cause. I didn't see the 60 minutes program, but was there any mention of the increased maternalmortality with caesareans? Michelle Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
[ozmidwifery] Fwd: C/S at whim
Begin forwarded message: From: Jan Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Mon May 31, 2004 7:57:54 AM Australia/Sydney To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: C/S at whim Dear Liz Your Cesarean section debate became unbalanced when the whimsical (and unfounded) wish of one woman was highlighted without giving women who had natural births the chance to talk about THEIR on-going pelvic floor function. The fact is pelvic floor dysfunction occurs most frequently in western women through deposits of fat in the structure and lack of use! The pelvic floor is designed to recover perfectly after giving birth naturally - it does not recover so quickly (and sometimes never fully) when traumatised by inappropriate confinements. Potential benefits of Cesarean section were well highlighted but the substantial risks for both mother and baby were not. Consensus by clinicians and consumers by means of evidence-based clinical guidelines (as recommended by the WHO) and public education programs (rather than medical propaganda) may result in more uniform and appropriate use of this major intervention. Jan Robinson 8 Robin Crescent South Hurstville NSW 2221 Australia Phone/Fax: 02 9546 4350 www: midwiferyeducation.com.au National Coordinator Australian Society of Independently Practising Midwives (ASIM) Jan Robinson 8 Robin Crescent South Hurstville NSW 2221 Australia Phone/Fax: 02 9546 4350 www: midwiferyeducation.com.au National Coordinator Australian Society of Independently Practising Midwives (ASIM)
RE: [ozmidwifery] caesarean section
Thanks Marilyn. You always have such great balance of intellect and heart. Love Sally Midwives Catch The Essence of Joy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marilyn Kleidon Sent: Monday, 31 May 2004 11:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] caesarean section MIchelle: I would urge you to go actually read the case studies around these maternal mortality stats. The studies are also on the web site, at least they were because I downloaded them a couple of years ago. What I found/interpreted were many very ill women with various cardiovascular disorders plus women with rapidly escalating pre-eclampsi/eclampsia and one immediate postpartum eclamptic seizure (after an NVB and early d/c). For most of the women who died it would seem to me that caesarean birth was their only option for surviving childbirth, in another time they would probably not attempted to conceive. In thinking about this I have wondered for a while how this increasing maternal mortalityis related to the increasing c/s rate, simply because these women were true cases of needing c/s in other words they were definetly not elective c/s nor did any of the cases represent unnecessary c/s, at least not to my mind. I now think there is an indirect link. Perhaps, in the ether of the promotion of the choice and safety of caesarean birth women who otherwise would have considered themselves too ill to undergo pregnancy and childbirth consider childbearing a possibility and then it becomes a probability. I am sure there are other possibilities. marilyn - Original Message - From: Michelle Windsor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 6:52 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] caesarean section Hi, I'm new to the list but had to add a bit to the caesarean section issue. Doing an assignment last year we had to analyse some perinatal statistics (Qld). In the last 30 years the maternal mortality rate has slowly and steadily increased (figures up to 1996) and while they didn't give a breakdown on the maternal deaths, surely this has to be due to the slow but steady increase in caesarean section? It is unbelievable that in 30 years of medical advances that more women are dying - and no one is looking for the cause. I didn't see the 60 minutes program, but was there any mention of the increased maternalmortality with caesareans? Michelle Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes.
Dear Marilyn and list. I saw the segment and thought HO HUM here we go again. I felt they were somewhat disingenuous having a media denizen as spokesperson for pro-elective luscs, and the woman who lost her baby (for late LUSCS as the story implied) but who was also a documentary maker. Hardly your 'average' mother! These people thrive, indeed exist, because of controversy and therefore will be happy to create or perpetuate it. Justine did a fine job, but I felt was made by editing and camera angle to come across as somewhat belligerent. The obstetrician, predictably, blamed everyone but his own profession (justifiable blame, but not for 100%), taking himself off the hook for the rise in interventions. As for Tracey Curro's excuse of preservation of the pelvic floor, that is such an old chestnut! What about all the women who have never given birth who have continence problems, and what about the research that tells us it's not giving birth so much as carrying the child that is the issue. And the growing evidence that even men in late life have continence issues due to pelvic floor problems. It seems while we focus on vaginal birth as the cause of women's continence problems we deviate money from public health and research into the real reasons and cures and spend it on expensive surgery. The argument about increased risk of losing a uterus infuriated me. The obstetrician suggested the rate was too small to worry about, and that most women would not mind losing their uterus if they didn't want more children anyway (an argument he justified by the low birth rate). I am almost menopausal, but want to take my uterus to my grave, never mind the fear of bleeding to death. And he didn't address the fact that these complications (placenta increta, percreta, accreta) are on the rise so he can expect to see more as time goes by, nor was the problem of abnormally situated placentae and increased risk of miscarriage raised or addressed (research from USA where luscs have been much more common for a generation longer than here). No one seems game to really liken a medically unnecessary LUSCS to any other unnecessary surgery. Cosmetic surgery (for vanity not function or restoration which is plastic surgery) is not subsidised by taxpayers, and neither should unnecessary LUSCS be. If a woman wants to have LUSCS just to pick the day, she may, as far as I am concerned, but I don't want to pay for it when we can't get a hip replacement for a 70 year old pensioner. And as for the surgeon who performs it, would he cut off a perfectly good finger? Or make a long incision in a perfectly good arm? Then why in a perfectly healthy uterus? My dummy spit for the day! Trish Marilyn Kleidon wrote: Excellent footage Justine. I was disappointed with the slant of the whole segment though. We are being presented with promotions of caesarean birth. Misinformation, misinformation, misinformation. We know that the number of women seeking elective caesarean births for their first birth is around 1% (I mean truly elective i.e. by choice with no medical/obstetric reason such as malpresentation etc.) and yet it was portrayed as being the overall c/s rate that is, around 30%. They (some of the obstetric community, not all but some very vocal and public ob's) are doing with c/s what plastic surgeons have done with botox and plastic surgery for the last 10 years. It is all about the marketplace and consumerism. Everytime we participate in their so called debate we end up in an infomercial for obstetric care and caesaren birth normalisation. And you know I have no problem with women like Tracey Curo having the right to have an elective c/s, in privacy. It is after all their bodies not mine. Let us just not give them the space to promote it by pretending to be participating in a public debate/discussion. Please note, I am not for denying them the right to have their say, I am all for freedom of speech. I don't want to debate her womanhood or mothering abilities or even her extreme thinness. But I do not want her birth choices to become the only options for my daughters. We seem to be in a turf war over what will a normal birth look like/be and the ever shrinking number of new mothers. h! I have to remember to breathe. marilyn - Original Message - From: jayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 5:20 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes. Mmm, just how much is vaginal birth to blame for that serious medical issue of a weak pelvic floor? I wish they had of gone into the evidencethey just make it sound like it is the traditionalist's word against the ob's. Did anyone else think Tracey Curo looked painfully thin? And Justine you have beautiful children and well done :) Jayne -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is
[ozmidwifery] Re: 60 minutes.
I wonder if Tracey Curo and all the other 10-12% women who choose elective caesareans would do so if they had to pay for their 'right to choose' like has been discussed in England recently. And I noticed too, that England has had a decrease in c/sections for the first time in many years ... strange about all that. The midwives over there seem to be being heard much more by the women, who are then making more informed choices. As a lifetime passionate homebirth advocate I am very used to being part of a marginalised group. Isn't it scary to see normal vaginal birth be so marginalised as well I, too, will remember to breathe. Sue Excellent footage Justine. I was disappointed with the slant of the whole segment though. We are being presented with promotions of caesarean birth. Misinformation, misinformation, misinformation. We know that the number of women seeking elective caesarean births for their first birth is around 1% (I mean truly elective i.e. by choice with no medical/obstetric reason such as malpresentation etc.) and yet it was portrayed as being the overall c/s rate that is, around 30%. They (some of the obstetric community, not all but some very vocal and public ob's) are doing with c/s what plastic surgeons have done with botox and plastic surgery for the last 10 years. It is all about the marketplace and consumerism. Everytime we participate in their so called debate we end up in an infomercial for obstetric care and caesaren birth normalisation. And you know I have no problem with women like Tracey Curo having the right to have an elective c/s, in privacy. It is after all their bodies not mine. Let us just not give them the space to promote it by pretending to be participating in a public debate/discussion. Please note, I am not for denying them the right to have their say, I am all for freedom of speech. I don't want to debate her womanhood or mothering abilities or even her extreme thinness. But I do not want her birth choices to become the only options for my daughters. We seem to be in a turf war over what will a normal birth look like/be and the ever shrinking number of new mothers. h! I have to remember to breathe. marilyn - Original Message - From: jayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 5:20 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes. Mmm, just how much is vaginal birth to blame for that serious medical issue of a weak pelvic floor? I wish they had of gone into the evidencethey just make it sound like it is the traditionalist's word against the ob's. Did anyone else think Tracey Curo looked painfully thin? And Justine you have beautiful children and well done :) Jayne -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes.
Dear Trish and all, Please can we send a letter to Media watch and 60 minutes We all see the pain of the women who want natural birth but after this infomercial have partners and families to fearfull to support them or consider a midwifery model o care, the bureacrats also who will continue to not question the rising costs with the caesar rate as thye have watched 60 minutes and see it as what women want. Otherwise a Ho Hum response (acceptance) of this is support of it from 60 minutes down!! Denise - Original Message - From: Trish David [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 8:09 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes. Dear Marilyn and list. I saw the segment and thought HO HUM here we go again. I felt they were somewhat disingenuous having a media denizen as spokesperson for pro-elective luscs, and the woman who lost her baby (for late LUSCS as the story implied) but who was also a documentary maker. Hardly your 'average' mother! These people thrive, indeed exist, because of controversy and therefore will be happy to create or perpetuate it. Justine did a fine job, but I felt was made by editing and camera angle to come across as somewhat belligerent. The obstetrician, predictably, blamed everyone but his own profession (justifiable blame, but not for 100%), taking himself off the hook for the rise in interventions. As for Tracey Curro's excuse of preservation of the pelvic floor, that is such an old chestnut! What about all the women who have never given birth who have continence problems, and what about the research that tells us it's not giving birth so much as carrying the child that is the issue. And the growing evidence that even men in late life have continence issues due to pelvic floor problems. It seems while we focus on vaginal birth as the cause of women's continence problems we deviate money from public health and research into the real reasons and cures and spend it on expensive surgery. The argument about increased risk of losing a uterus infuriated me. The obstetrician suggested the rate was too small to worry about, and that most women would not mind losing their uterus if they didn't want more children anyway (an argument he justified by the low birth rate). I am almost menopausal, but want to take my uterus to my grave, never mind the fear of bleeding to death. And he didn't address the fact that these complications (placenta increta, percreta, accreta) are on the rise so he can expect to see more as time goes by, nor was the problem of abnormally situated placentae and increased risk of miscarriage raised or addressed (research from USA where luscs have been much more common for a generation longer than here). No one seems game to really liken a medically unnecessary LUSCS to any other unnecessary surgery. Cosmetic surgery (for vanity not function or restoration which is plastic surgery) is not subsidised by taxpayers, and neither should unnecessary LUSCS be. If a woman wants to have LUSCS just to pick the day, she may, as far as I am concerned, but I don't want to pay for it when we can't get a hip replacement for a 70 year old pensioner. And as for the surgeon who performs it, would he cut off a perfectly good finger? Or make a long incision in a perfectly good arm? Then why in a perfectly healthy uterus? My dummy spit for the day! Trish Marilyn Kleidon wrote: Excellent footage Justine. I was disappointed with the slant of the whole segment though. We are being presented with promotions of caesarean birth. Misinformation, misinformation, misinformation. We know that the number of women seeking elective caesarean births for their first birth is around 1% (I mean truly elective i.e. by choice with no medical/obstetric reason such as malpresentation etc.) and yet it was portrayed as being the overall c/s rate that is, around 30%. They (some of the obstetric community, not all but some very vocal and public ob's) are doing with c/s what plastic surgeons have done with botox and plastic surgery for the last 10 years. It is all about the marketplace and consumerism. Everytime we participate in their so called debate we end up in an infomercial for obstetric care and caesaren birth normalisation. And you know I have no problem with women like Tracey Curo having the right to have an elective c/s, in privacy. It is after all their bodies not mine. Let us just not give them the space to promote it by pretending to be participating in a public debate/discussion. Please note, I am not for denying them the right to have their say, I am all for freedom of speech. I don't want to debate her womanhood or mothering abilities or even her extreme thinness. But I do not want her birth choices to become the only options for my daughters. We seem to be in a turf war over what will a normal birth look like/be and the ever shrinking number of new mothers.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Cs story
Jo, I hope you are able to forward a letter to 60 minutes because women need to hear what you have to say. kathy - Original Message - From: Jo Dean Bainbridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 9:59 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] Cs story I am a mum whose first birth was by caesarean, the next birth with medical interventions (forceps etc), and then a natural vaginal birth. Pretty much done it all! It really concerns me when people like Tracy Curio can make statements like a vaginal birth is not a life changing essential rite of passage into mother or woman hoodwhen she has never done it! Women who make comments about experiences they have not lived should never make blanket comments. To say something like that is not only arrogant but ignorant. Nothing compares to birthing a baby naturally, with no complications, with no fear and surrounded by those people who truly care for you and your baby. There is nothing like it, there is no way to describe it. Complicated vaginal birth is something that I have experienced twice, it is for that reason that I feel that I can accurately compare the experiences. For me to finally birth a baby naturally and without fear or complications was a major accomplishment and healed many sorrows. I feel that it is understandable for Vanessa to chose her caesarean birth, but is her experience reflective of the general population? Many women do have traumatic vaginal birth experiences, but should we not be asking why? Why is it that some hospitals have induction rates of over 50% and coincidently have cs rates of 35% to 40%? Is there not correlation in this? Why is it that all birth centres around the country are booked out continuously? Why the newly introduced midwifery group practice in Adelaide is having to double it's numbers next year from 500 women per year to 1000 due to the demand for midwifery led care. What is happening in our labour wards under the medical model of care that makes major abdominal surgery a preferred option? The story presented by 60 minutes was fraught with incorrect information: pelvic floor being 'saved' by cs...it is more likely pregnancy hormones, botched or poorly timed medical interventions like forceps and episiotomies, and the lack of pelvic floor exercising by women that causes stress incontinences etc; and the story's total exclusion of the serious complications from cs that are sadly becoming 'less rare' as the more cs are done...life threatening events such as serious placental complications and even links with still birth in future pregnancies. Such biased and incorrect information being shown to our birthing mothers is a sad reflection of our society loosing the sacredness and importance of birth. On one aspect you are reporting caesareans as being as normal as a vaginal birth (however you only acknowledged the complicated vaginal birth scenario) but not once did the reporter or those involved in the story refer to caesarean as a caesarean birth. C-Section, or caesarean section is the medical terminology. We don't call the baby the foetus in every day speech do we? I watched the segment with interest, but sadly was left disappointed and thinking once again: you just don't get it! Jo Bainbridge Nairne, South Australia -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] 60 MINUTES
Justine How big a smile was on my face seeing some of your birth video. There was no smile for the birth of those beautiful twins. The comments over the top of this birth by that idiot doctor told the viewers that this couple chose to have their lscs. But he did not mention the coerscion and fright tactics that i am sure he used to convince them that this was best for all concerned. Justine you make us all proud. You have a beautiful family. You are doing a wonderful job of advocating for womens choices and this is proven by the fact that 60 minutes had you on. Shame on them for ripping women off once again. I am sure that I once read in a journal somewhere about a survey conducted with elderly nuns and it was found that the number of them that suffered from incontinence was on par with others. Has anyone else read or heard of this. Anyways it looks like Tracy Curio may not have avoided incontinence in the long run after all. She may sue her ob when the time comes! lol. Linda
[ozmidwifery] Pelvic floor and the media hysteria
The artcile in question about nuns and incontinence was quoted by Karen Guilliland on a Lateline report on 16 Sept 1999 (which I obtained a dub for for teaching purposes) which was a debate on LUSCS and avoiding pelvic floor problems. This program was much more balanced, though the president of RANZCOG of the day, a chap from QLD was a stroppy old coot. Karen was marvellous in her responses. It seems we will never be free of this issue. It is also interesting that these same debates about faulty women's equipment were huge in the 80s and 90s when every second woman had her uterus ripped out for dysmenorrhoea. Now we have had the disaster of HRT (surprise, surprise they are now doubting the dubious benefits heralded only 10 years ago). Until we are neutered, this fight over our bodies will not go away, I fear. Trish -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] Fw: Urgent reading:NMAPWA
From another list I thought those involved in trying to get 1-2-1 midwifery models going here maybe encouraged by this as I was' Denise Hynd Denise, I know these are U.K. models, but the MIDIRS digest March 20004 has some interesting articles: Pge S 9, Integrating caseloads across a whole service: The Torbay Model; It has cost breakdowns etc for their system. Pge S 4 Normal Birth is a Public Health issue; Maintaining a low C/S rate in a tertiary centre (St Mary's hosp Manchester; Pge S 15 Increasing Normal Births in a large teaching hospital (St George's London); Pge S 16 Teamworks in Basingstoke ; S 18 the hub 7 Spoke model of care (Royal shewsbury Hospital) S 20 An Integrated midwifery led birthing centre- creating a successful Birth Centre within a hospital (Royal Free Hampstead); Pge S 22Helme Chase Maternity Unit: Experiences of a stand alone midwifery led unit in rural Cumbria; Pge S 25 Caseload Midwfery and its contribution to increasing normal birth (Southampton Sure Start); I will drop my copy off to the office in Leederville today. I missed the 60 mins thing as I was at a birth. Lovely 4410g boy, waterbirth. Cheers, M Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MatCoWA/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MatCoWA/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes Dear Marilyn I think you are right about the pogram being a(n) paid/unpaid infomercial for caesarean birth and obstetric care. They also forgot to mention most Obs do not know how to facilitate a natural birth I think David Malloy would not know that C/S is their specialty Normal birth now is not natural birth in Australia as less than 25% start and finish labour with -out induction or augmentation in most Australian Hospitalsand less than 13% birth without drugs (a drigged mother is likely to be a drugged baby!)- definitely in WA. ButJenny Gamble's research and most midwives expereinces confirms that the majority of women antenatally want or hope for a natural birth but are funnelled by our maternity services into the "care" of those who do not deliver this! Do you think this program might be Dr Malloy and colleagues response to Jenny's research?? Denise Hynd - Original Message - From: Marilyn Kleidon To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 10:20 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes I do firmly believe it was a(n) paid/unpaid infomercial for caesarean birth and obstetric care. Normal birth in a technological age is in their (am I paranoid?) sites! marilyn - Original Message - From: Denise Hynd To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 8:18 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes Dear Justine, Intelligent veiwers will see just in terms of time and relative presentation of interviews, Liz Hayes empathy that the program was biased. Trouble is how many will analyse it?? Two prominent journalists both who were "very informed' of the horror alternatives and one who lost a baby from a determined effort to have natural birth but saved the next with a C/s and prominent doctor how can any natural childbirth advocate speak out against them How can any one speak out and suggestbias let alone it was alsonegligent and insulting to anyone who does not agree with the right of any and all woman to choosevaginal by pass surgery -hang the costs or consequences to the majority of women and our community!! Hang the wonders of childbirth, and the wishes and the efforts of the majority of pregnant, all the research about what is safe and the risks of intervention, let alone surgery and 30 national enquiries, escalating costs, the pain of mothers and babies and now increasing maternal deaths !! Let alonesidelining and dismissing midwives "she only had a midwife" How low can journalists sink??More importantly can we let this one go publicly unchallenged?? Denise - Original Message - From: Justine Caines To: OzMid List Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes Hi AllYes they got us again (despite 5hrs of talking with them and them agreeing) What is the worst thing is I had no idea that Vanessa OGorman or Tracey Curio were going to be on (despite 2 requests as to who else was on and a confirmation of who with no word of these 2!) I would not have gone if I knew about Vanessa!Also I tried very hard to line up a midwife (they spoke with her and said oh she says all the same things you say!!) I lined up 2 supportive Obs (one who has done 400 vaginal breaches) and is a great guy, they said they would interview him, they didnt. I think it is so important to attack them on their own story heading, Mothers Choice yeah what choice!Perhaps Media Watch may be interested!Write your letters to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Justine
Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes Hi all I also had a restless night at the newest (and unsurprising) report on birth. Itoo was concerned that 3 out of the 4 births were caesarean births. Justine, I am angry at the very limitedair time your were given, and the tiny bit of information from you they showed, especially after the work you put in (reminds me of a Brisbane Extra segment on homebirth/waterbirth I did a few years ago). I amconcerned as always, about the lack of objectivity of the reporting - that the report did not include the views/stories of women who have hada caesarean, and chosen and subsequently gone on to give birth vaginally, and their reasons for choosing a vaginal birth foloowing a previous caesarean. Yet again, the story did not stress the adverse outcomes associated with elective caesarean, and elective repeat caesarean, and multiple caesareans for mothers or their infants. Scant attention was paid to one of the rarest, (hysterestomy),but the commoner and often as serious consequences were left undiscussed. Another example of balanced reporting - pardon while I vomit. While I commiserate with Vanessa, having followed her tragic story, and understand her decision to have a caesarean foIlowing Layla's birth and death, I wonder why Tracey had such a longtime slot which could have been used much more objectively (Ahsilly me!Of course it was objective -regarding the safety and convenience of caesareans) by bringing in other women with VBAC stories, for example. Must be a 'let's keep it in the family' reporter thing. Don't get me startedon the dr - what was that line in the hyppocratic oath? First, do no harm? Does he honestly think he is doing no harm by caesaring all of his clients? Iam so tired of hearing this man say 'you will never be sued for doing a caesarean' - I am sorry, but the time is coming where he or someonewill, and it will take women to die or to be maimed by unneccessary caesareans before it happens. Avoiding a caesarean is one reasonwhy women choose a VBAC. For those of you on line who heard me talk (at the Midwifery Intensives with Andrea, MAggie and Vicki) about Michele and Peter soon to have their VBAC, stay tuned for their birth story. It's quite a story! Justine, well done! An Angry, but unsurprised Lynne - Original Message - From: Denise Hynd To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes Dear Marilyn I think you are right about the pogram being a(n) paid/unpaid infomercial for caesarean birth and obstetric care. They also forgot to mention most Obs do not know how to facilitate a natural birth I think David Malloy would not know that C/S is their specialty Normal birth now is not natural birth in Australia as less than 25% start and finish labour with -out induction or augmentation in most Australian Hospitalsand less than 13% birth without drugs (a drigged mother is likely to be a drugged baby!)- definitely in WA. ButJenny Gamble's research and most midwives expereinces confirms that the majority of women antenatally want or hope for a natural birth but are funnelled by our maternity services into the "care" of those who do not deliver this! Do you think this program might be Dr Malloy and colleagues response to Jenny's research?? Denise Hynd - Original Message - From: Marilyn Kleidon To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 10:20 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes I do firmly believe it was a(n) paid/unpaid infomercial for caesarean birth and obstetric care. Normal birth in a technological age is in their (am I paranoid?) sites! marilyn - Original Message - From: Denise Hynd To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 8:18 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 60 minutes Dear Justine, Intelligent veiwers will see just in terms of time and relative presentation of interviews, Liz Hayes empathy that the program was biased. Trouble is how many will analyse it?? Two prominent journalists both who were "very informed' of the horror alternatives and one who lost a baby from a determined effort to have natural birth but saved the next with a C/s and prominent doctor how can any natural childbirth advocate speak out against them How can any one speak out and suggestbias let alone it was alsonegligent and insulting to anyone who does not agree with the right of any and all woman to choosevaginal by pass surgery -hang the costs or consequences to the majority of women and our community!! Hang the wonders of childbirth, and the wishes and the efforts of the
[ozmidwifery] 60 minutes
Dear all, Justine, needed to say that I loved your segment on 60 minutes and I too felt that you were not given enough legs to make the segment unbiased. I have implored them to make a follow up segment on another fellow 60 minutes reporters choice of birth, George Negus and his partner Kirsty's choice for a home birth. Not holding my breath though. Love Sonja
[ozmidwifery] 60 minutes transcript
Here's the transcript from thewebsite http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/sixtyminutes/stories/2004_05_30/story_1129.asp Mother's choice May 30, 2004 Reporter: Liz HayesProducer: Richard Mortlock, Glenda Gaitz INTRO LIZ HAYES: It seems that doing what comes naturally doesn't come all that naturally these days, not in childbirth, anyway. Now, one in every four Australian babies is born by caesarean section. That's via the scalpel, the knife. Major surgery, but arguably, no more risky than nature's way. Why? Well, there's lots of reasons, many of them medical. But there's also fear, fashion and convenience, the ability to slot birth neatly into a busy life. And that's where the battle lines are being drawn, with some traditionalists warning that soon, natural childbirth could be history. STORY LIZ HAYES: For Vanessa Gorman, this operating theatre is a happy end to a tragic journey. It's the birth of her son Rafael and while having a caesarean birth is a decision more and Australian women are making, it was never a simple choice for Vanessa. So you made a decision for a caesar? VANESSA GORMAN: Yes, yes, and I was sorry in a way that I was having a caesarean for him, for my son, but I just thought also that I just couldn't live through losing another child. And I just felt like I have to choose the very safest way and that seemed to be the caesarean. LIZ HAYES: Vanessa Gorman is a documentary maker. Four years ago, she made an extraordinary film about her first pregnancy, called Losing Leila. It told of her long and difficult labour and her desire to experience a natural childbirth. VANESSA GORMAN: I thought that having a caesarean, you know, was just maybe not going through that passage, that initiation into womanhood. LIZ HAYES: After 20 hours of hard labour, Vanessa's daughter was in serious distress. The doctor's only answer was an emergency caesarean. But the operation came too late for tiny Leila. VANESSA GORMAN: I felt like I was so distressed that that might have put her into distress and put her into distress and eventually caused the meconium inhalation, which eventually killed her. LIZ HAYES: Do you wish now that you'd had a caesarean or is that an unfair question? VANESSA GORMAN: Of course I do. You know, of course I do in that sense of, what if I just had a caesarean, I would now have a four-year-old girl here. LIZ HAYES: From Leila's death to Rafael's elective caesarean birth, Vanessa Gorman's experience provides a snapshot of how and why Australia's way of having babies has changed. Do you think we will reach the point where the majority of babies that come into this world will come via a c-section? DR DAVID MOLLOY: I think we're going to go close to that. I think if you look at almost any part of society, people choose technology. They choose mobile phones. They choose high-tech cars. They choose gadgets for their houses. We're a very technology-driven society. We're comfortable with intervention and technology and I think that's extended, I really believe that's extended into the birthing process. LIZ HAYES: Brisbane obstetrician David Molloy says when it comes to caesareans, it's a woman's right to choose. Today, it's a choice that one in four Australian mothers are making. DR DAVID MOLLOY: Caesarean section rights have risen in Australia virtually every year for the last 15 years. First of all, the big driver at the moment is patient request. Secondly, the litigation aspect: we get sued only for not doing caesarean sections or for not doing them quickly enough. The third thing is the ageing obstetric population: now, one in four women or one in five women are having their first baby over the age of 35. LIZ HAYES: No matter which way you cut it, a caesarean is a serious operation. Here, Dr Molloy is delivering twins. Anaesthetised from the waist down, this mother feels no pain as her newborn son is pulled from the incision made through her abdomen and womb. Like more than 14 percent of Australia's caesarean births, this was elective surgery, the mother's choice. The fact of the matter is that vaginal births and caesareans are seen as as safe as each other. JUSTINE CAINES, NATURAL BIRTH ADVOCATE: Absolutely not. There is no way that undergoing surgery, major abdominal surgery, can ever be as safe as normal vaginal birth. What we are seeing is that for the convenience of large organisations, ie. major hospitals and practitioners, that women are slotted in. It's basically production-line birth. LIZ HAYES: For Justine Caines, caesareans are just not natural. This natural birth advocate is a mother of four. Little Tobias was born at home with only a midwife attending. JUSTINE CAINES: Birth is seen as a very painful, scary thing that's to be endured. And we are a society of instant gratification, quick fix, and birth is not about that and I think that what we're seeing as the result of the quick-fix birth is huge rates of postnatal depression, problems with
