Re: [ozmidwifery] Prochiaden and breastfeeding?

[Kim Stead]

 
Hi Abbey
 
I thought I would look this up as I have an interest in mental illness and have a limited knowledge of pharmacology.  Prochiaden is a tricyclic antidepressant and one of the 'older' depression drugs.  More often SSRI's are being used.  Was your friend on this medication before pregnancy and during pregnancy?  Is this being prescribed by an appropriate professional.  I assume he/she is aware that she is breastfeeding.
 
From my textbooks, it's suggests that postnatally, the amounts should be reduced to pre-pregnancy levels  with close observation for emergent side effects.  Side effects in the baby can include feeding difficulties, seizures, tachypnoea, pastrointestional stasis and bladder retention. Obviously quite serious and not to be taken without careful consideration and a detailed consultation.
 
It's really not something that a midwife has a lot of knowledge about unless she is specifically trained in that field, therefore difficult to advise and make statements or judgements.  I too agreee that it's best to try more natural remedies first but in the case of mental illness, one (a professional) needs to decide how serious the situation is and weigh up the advantages and disadvantages of taking/not taking the medication.  It may well be that your friend needs to take this medication at this time and while it may affect the baby, her needs are important at ensuring her mental and emotional wellbeing in order for her to be an effective and loving mother.
 
Again...one of those not so black and white issues.
 
Hope this has been of some help.  Probablly not I suspect!
 
Kim Stead
Midwife : Birth-Wise Midwifery
www.birth-wise.com.
 
---Original Message---
 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 14/09/2004 4:24:18 p.m.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ozmidwifery] Prochiaden and breastfeeding?
 
Thought some of you wise women could help with a friends query. She has been
prescribed Prochiaden 25mg for depression and she is breastfeeding her 2
month old. She was worried about the side effects and what effects that
would have on bubs. I thought that most anti depressants would have similiar
side effects listed ie. drowsiness, dizziness, nausea(? spelling)
Do any of you know much about this drug? are there any safer anti
depressants for pregnancy ( DISCLAIMER- I am actually not a fan of anti
depressants at all. I believe most "depression" can be cured with exercise,
nutrition and various therapies. However, she is adimant about taking them
and so I want to find out the safest).
Could someone look it up in, is it Dr Hales, book?
 
Thanks so much.
Love Abby
 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Prochiaden and breastfeeding?

[Abby and Toby]

> Where does your friend live abby?  If she is in melbourne, or doesn't mind
calling melbourne, the Monash Medical Centre drug information line (03-9594
2361), is a brilliant resource for pregnant or breastfeeding women.  A man
called Rod (White is his surname I think) specialises in medications in
pregnancy and breastfeeding.

Thanks for that info Kirsten. My friend lives in Sydney, but I will give
them a call and also give her the number. What a great resource. It is a
shame more doctors don't know about drugs and breastfeeding and also safe
alternatives to their favourite "prescriptions" for breastfeeding mothers.

Thanks again, greatly appreciated.
Love Abby

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[ozmidwifery] National Caesarean Awareness Day 2004

[Dean & Jo]

Hello, 
 
just a quick reminder of the National Caesarean 
Awareness Day celebration that will be held this Saturday at Waterfall Gully 
from 3.30pm - 
 
Restoring the Birthing Woman Within: 
a day of emotional healing.
 
A day of emotional 
healing is a time to share and express our emotions in a positive and meaningful 
way.
 
The day will 
incorporate story telling, those who feel comfortable can share their own 
personal story, a poem, a prayer or picture.  If you are unable to attend 
but still wish to share your thoughts, you may like to contribute to the booklet 
to be produced after the day "Expressions of Emotional Healing".  We 
welcome all contributions and you can submit yours on the web site : 
www.cares-sa.org.au
 
Each woman is also 
invited to bring the petals of her favourite flower(s) to scatter over the 
flowing water during the ceremony; symbolically cleansing and giving away.  
Candles will be lit around the nation to link each states events.  Candles 
will be on sale on the day for a small cost.
 
Please keep in 
mind:
 
- the weather forecast is for 
rain, so please bring an umbrella or two if you have spare and dress 
warm!
 
- partners are welcome however 
the location is NOT suitable for young children (small babies excluded) as there 
is no pram access, the area for the ceremony is quite small and the 
waterfall is easily accessible for children.  CARES SA advise that it is 
not safe for young children.  It is also a time for adults to share 
emotions that some young children may not understand and could cause 
distress.  CARES SA has always welcomed and catered for children, however 
we must regretfully stress that this event may not be suitable.  

 
Please feel 
welcome to invite others whom you may think may benefit for this very special 
event.  We look forward to seeing you on the day!  And remember if you 
can not make it, you can still contribute to the booklet "Expressions of 
Emotional Healing".
 
yours in 
birth
 
Jo, Carolyn and 
the exceptional women of the CARES SA core group.
 

[ozmidwifery] West Today

[Denise Hynd]

Dear all 
I trust you all read page 15 in today's West by 
Geraldine Mellett
 
Anyone able to transcribe to the list for those who 
did not??
Denise Hynd
 
"Never believe that a few caring people can't 
change the world.  For, indeed, they are the only ones who ever 
have."  Margaret Mead

Re: [ozmidwifery] abortion and working with women etc

[Belinda Maier]

I applaud your braveness in writing about your 
experience
take care
Belinda

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Honey 
  Acharya 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 2:49 
  PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] abortion and 
  working with women etc
  
  Abby
  I find your writings on abortion very judgemental 
  of others. How can you sit in judgment when you personally have not been 
  through abortion and know what it is like, or know why a woman would make that 
  choice? It seems you have never had to face a situation personally with 
  abortion. Or if you have you need to deal with your feelings about it 
  adequetly rather than sit in judgment of others.
   
  I have had two abortions personally - one an 
  unwanted pregnancy at a very young age with failed contraceptives and the 
  other a very much wanted pregnancy and abortion due to medical reasons (my 
  health not the fetus'). They were hard situations and the grief I have 
  experienced is enormous. I have reflected on my views on abortion many times 
  and although I don't believe I would choose an abortion again 
  for myself I still believe in a womans right to choose an abortion. 
  
   
  Perhaps its time you turned the attention and 
  energy around and focus on yourself and look at what it is inside yourself 
  that you can't accept. 
   
  I worry that someone who works with women 
  regulary would hold such harsh views. How can you care and support them 
  adequetly feeling the way you do?
  Do you ask each woman before you work with them 
  about their "abortion status" and decline working with them if they have had 
  an abortion?
   
  I didn't want to join this debate as it is such 
  an emotive one and probably does no good, but your comments affected me and 
  there are probably many women on this list who have had abortions so you are 
  sitting in judgement of many and bringing up pain and many feelings for women 
  in a very unloving and unsupportive way.
   
  perhaps its time to take this debate to an 
  abortion list rather than an ozmid one.
   
  Thanks
   
   
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Abby and Toby 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:54 
PM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion 
etc

>>Vegetarianism and abortion, I find that incredibly 
ridiculous!
 
I just can't get this comment out of my head. 
It is so ridiculous...so ridiculous that some women don't eat meat 
because they don't want to harm or kill an animal, yet they will 
willfully, and by choice, harm and kill their unborn baby. I find this 
incredibly ridiculous.
 
Abby
 

[ozmidwifery] Understanding Silence

[Abby and Toby]

Now I understand why some women wrote to me regarding the reponses I may
recieve if I speak out against abortion. Wow! you women sure know how to
judge while telling others not too. You seem to know me inside out just by
reading the few posts I wrote about abortion ( said with sarcasm). If only
you knew me. How sad it is that women can't speak out without their
character being attacked.

>>Can you honestly say that you still have the
same respect for your friend after she chose an abortion?
To answer your question Nikki, yes, I adore my friend. I still see her with
the same amount of respect I have always have.

That's all I will say on this topic, I can only handle so much and am
willing to admit that. To the women that wrote encouraging words off list
thankyou, I appreciate it.

Love Abby
" Well behaved women don't make history"



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Re: [ozmidwifery] Prochiaden and breastfeeding?

[Kirsten Wohlt]

Where does your friend live abby?  If she is in melbourne, or doesn't mind calling 
melbourne, the Monash Medical Centre drug information line (03-9594 2361), is a 
brilliant resource for pregnant or breastfeeding women.  A man called Rod (White is 
his surname I think) specialises in medications in pregnancy and breastfeeding.  
Absolute gem of a man.  He helped me when I wanted to continue breastfeeding my 5 
month old daughter and had to go on to thyroid and arthritis medications.  I had the 
same dilemma when my son was 5 months old, but didn't know about rodney, so took 
doctors advice and weaned him.  I was devastated (not that my doctors took that into 
account!) Was determined not to this time, spoke to one of ABA counsellors and she put 
me on to rod.  With his care and advice i happily breastfed my beautiful little girl 
until she was 2 and a half years old, when we both came to a mutually happy decision 
to wean!

Kirsten
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Re: [ozmidwifery] abortion and working with women etc

[Abby and Toby]

>>Perhaps its time you turned the attention 
and energy around and focus on yourself and look at what it is inside yourself 
that you can't accept. 
 
Is this really a serious comment? Because of the 
fact that I strongly disagree with something, then there is something I need to 
deal with. So.because I disagree strongly with child abuse, pornography, 
rape etc etc, then I will need to look inside myself to see what it is that I 
can't accept?? I am willing to speak out against, what I see as major problems 
in our world, so this means I have issues. I know I have issues, but I don't see 
speaking out against the norm as that being a sign of them.
 
> worry that someone who works with women 
regulary would hold such harsh views. How can you care and support them 
adequetly feeling the way you do? Do you ask each 
woman before you work with them about their "abortion status" and decline 
working with them if they have had an abortion?
 
I love the "please don't judge women" comments and 
then the judgements. To the above statement, as if. If you knew 
mewell...you obviously don't. Just because I feel 
strongly against abortion and feel the need to speak out against it, doesn't 
mean the topic runs my life. I am not even going to answer the second question. 

 
So, I am guessing you are perfect, so you can care 
and support women adequately then? There are so many things in this world that 
people can disagree on. Here is a list that I think we would all have differing 
views on smacking children, co-sleeping, natural parenting, drugs in birth, 
breastfeeding, religion, politics etc etc, does this mean then, that because 
someone disagrees with you, then they are inadequate carers.
 
What does a woman need to care adequately for a 
woman? Is it the "right" opinion or is it a heart and passion for her and her 
journey?
 
Love Abby- please don't throw insults out, while 
telling me not to be judgemental.
 

[ozmidwifery] Re: the abortion topic

[Kim Stead]

 
Hi guys
 
I just wanted to add that I am not pro or against abortion - just understanding of women's difficulties and changing circumstances that come up and bite you in the bum when you least expect them!
 
I do know of women who have had abortions for very sound reasons (now I feel like I am having to justify their decisions or lack of them) and I have seen the heart-ache that this has caused for years to come.  They have not been decisions that have been taken lightly and often they have affected many people in the wings - family and the professionals caring for them.  I have also worked with some amazing midwives who have cared for women during the procedure (and not the early ones) because they have been 'dropped' by their midwives, doctors etc (and often ones they trusted) for the decision that had been made.  They felt that were being judged by people (professionals) who should know better and who knew very little of their personal situations.  The midwives who cared for these women often had anti-abortion feelings also but kept that part of their personal belief system and not for public knowledge.  Others felt that this was not something that they could be involved with (ethical reasons or emotional well-being) and professionally and kindly removed themselves from the situation making sure the woman was cared for by someone who could support her through one of the most difficult times of her life.  Usually we knew of those such people and as professionals we supported them with their difficult task.  Unit managers also knew which staff they could call on.  
 
As a student, one of my fellow colleagues was very open and somewhat ruthless in expressing her opinions.  "I will not care for such women!  I'm not that kind of midwife".  As midwives, especially when working in the continuity model... you don't know who these women are going to be.  They don't exactly have signs on their foreheads.   Often the women don't know who they are either.  Unfortuanately, abortion was almost a taboo subject in my training (issues with one the lecturer's I suspected) so I took it upon myself to research and present this topic as one of my special topic presentations.  I thought it was important for all midwives (and other heath professionals) to know how complex the situation is, situations but more importantly, how to deal with the situation when it arises.  As a woman and a mother, I have my own feelings and opinions but have also been very grateful that I have never been in such a situation but as a midwife I hope to have a professional approach to the subject as well and wanted to be prepared in advance.  I urge you all to give this some consideration so that the women we care for are treated in a respectful and non-judgemental manner.  Know what services exist in your area and where these women and families can can help, advice and support.  Be clear about your professional and personal boundaries.
 
I value this list for the opportunity to share feelings and experienes but like some others, I don't feel it is an appropriate place to lay judgement and stir up feelings and emotions that lie deep within any one of us.  We all have our own issues, passions and  life experiences (both good and bad) and I know that certain topics are very close to home for me also.
 
Kiwi Kim.
 
 
 
 
 
Kim Stead
Midwife : Birth-Wise Midwifery
www.birth-wise.com.
 
---Original Message---
 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 14/09/2004 3:30:59 p.m.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ozmidwifery] abortion and working with women etc
 
Abby
I find your writings on abortion very judgemental of others. How can you sit in judgment when you personally have not been through abortion and know what it is like, or know why a woman would make that choice? It seems you have never had to face a situation personally with abortion. Or if you have you need to deal with your feelings about it adequetly rather than sit in judgment of others.
 
I have had two abortions personally - one an unwanted pregnancy at a very young age with failed contraceptives and the other a very much wanted pregnancy and abortion due to medical reasons (my health not the fetus'). They were hard situations and the grief I have experienced is enormous. I have reflected on my views on abortion many times and although I don't believe I would choose an abortion again for myself I still believe in a womans right to choose an abortion. 
 
Perhaps its time you turned the attention and energy around and focus on yourself and look at what it is inside yourself that you can't accept. 
 
I worry that someone who works with women regulary would hold such harsh views. How can you care and support them adequetly feeling the way you do?
Do you ask each woman before you work with them about their "abortion status" and decline working with them if they have had an abortion?
 
I didn't want to join this debate as it is such an emotive one and probably does no good, but your commen

Re: [ozmidwifery] BMid SA

[Callum & Kirsten]

I think i already answered this before?
There are no issues, i have to register in SA first then change my 
registration to NT nurses board after that. It is due to the course not 
being done in Darwin.

As far as i know its accpeted australia wide, you just change registration 
when you move from state to state.

Kirsten
BMid student
Darwin
~~~start life with a midwife~~~
- Original Message - 
From: "Honey Acharya" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 7:28 PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] BMid SA


Are there issues with different states in Australia and the BMId
qualification? For example if you study externally from Uni SA but then 
want
to be registered and work as a Midwife in Darwin or Brisbane or Canberra 
are
there problems or is it accepted everywhere?

Thanks
Honey
- Original Message - 
From: "Marguerite Perkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Re BMid SA


Hi Sue
I found out about Uni SA external BMid program a week
or two ago after buying the NSW/ACT uni book and
finding UT (Syd)  BMid ( due to start 2005) unlisted.
I browsed a bit and found Uni SA. I emailed  Beth
Grinter who sent me info re external study BMid at Uni
SA . It has, to date,  only been some units but her
reply suggests that all units should be available
externally by 2005 intake. She sent me an info sheet
with SATAC numbers for the courses, which is a bit
puzzling because the SATAC website BMid number isn't
the same as Beth's ones. And no separate numbers for
applying for on campus versus external study. Trying
to track it all down now, apply AND examining, after
years of being a birth helper,   if my goal of being a
midwife is still in place. I've been waiting for the
ACT to introduce the BMid since at least 1997 and it's
still not here so exteranl study seems a good option
as I don't feel like I can move.
I've been --- Tania & Laurie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Re BMid SAHi Sue
> I don't think there is an external 3 year program -
> but then I didn't know there was an external 6 year
> program either!! From my understanding there are
> only certain subjects in the 3 year program that can
> be undertaken externally. Perhaps you could contact
> the program director at Uni SA. Her name is Beth
> Grinter, ph 8302 6317 - she can be difficult to get
> hold of, so be patient and she will return your call
> if you leave a message.
>
> Tania
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[ozmidwifery] National Caesarean Awareness Day 2004

[Dean & Jo]

Hello, 
 
just a quick reminder of the National Caesarean 
Awareness Day celebration that will be held this Saturday at Waterfall Gully 
from 3.30pm - 
 
Restoring the Birthing Woman Within: 
a day of emotional healing.
 
A day of emotional 
healing is a time to share and express our emotions in a positive and meaningful 
way.
 
The day will 
incorporate story telling, those who feel comfortable can share their own 
personal story, a poem, a prayer or picture.  If you are unable to attend 
but still wish to share your thoughts, you may like to contribute to the booklet 
to be produced after the day "Expressions of Emotional Healing".  We 
welcome all contributions and you can submit yours on the web site : 
www.cares-sa.org.au
 
Each woman is also 
invited to bring the petals of her favourite flower(s) to scatter over the 
flowing water during the ceremony; symbolically cleansing and giving away.  
Candles will be lit around the nation to link each states events.  Candles 
will be on sale on the day for a small cost.
 
Please keep in 
mind:
 
- the weather forecast is for 
rain, so please bring an umbrella or two if you have spare and dress 
warm!
 
- partners are welcome however 
the location is NOT suitable for young children (small babies excluded) as there 
is no pram access, the area for the ceremony is quite small and the 
waterfall is easily accessible for children.  CARES SA advise that it is 
not safe for young children.  It is also a time for adults to share 
emotions that some young children may not understand and could cause 
distress.  CARES SA has always welcomed and catered for children, however 
we must regretfully stress that this event may not be suitable.  

 
Please feel 
welcome to invite others whom you may think may benefit for this very special 
event.  We look forward to seeing you on the day!  And remember if you 
can not make it, you can still contribute to the booklet "Expressions of 
Emotional Healing".
 
yours in 
birth
 
Jo, Carolyn and 
the exceptional women of the CARES SA core group.
 

[ozmidwifery] West Today

[Denise Hynd]

Dear all 
I trust you all read page 15 in today's West by 
Geraldine Mellett
 
Anyone able to transcribe to the list for those who 
did not??
Denise Hynd
 
"Never believe that a few caring people can't 
change the world.  For, indeed, they are the only ones who ever 
have."  Margaret Mead

[ozmidwifery] Prochiaden and breastfeeding?

[Abby and Toby]

Thought some of you wise women could help with a friends query. She has been
prescribed Prochiaden 25mg for depression and she is breastfeeding her 2
month old. She was worried about the side effects and what effects that
would have on bubs. I thought that most anti depressants would have similiar
side effects listed ie. drowsiness, dizziness, nausea(? spelling)
Do any of you know much about this drug? are there any safer anti
depressants for pregnancy ( DISCLAIMER- I am actually not a fan of anti
depressants at all. I believe most "depression" can be cured with exercise,
nutrition and various therapies. However, she is adimant about taking them
and so I want to find out the safest).
Could someone look it up in, is it Dr Hales, book?

Thanks so much.
Love Abby

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Re: [ozmidwifery] repeating posts

[Kim Stead]

Hey Jo!
 
I am not cross and I am sure the others are not as it is obviously un-intentional.  Good luck with the tech friend!!  Don't they come in handy.
 
Kim. 
 

 
---Original Message---
 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 14/09/2004 3:45:30 p.m.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ozmidwifery] repeating posts
 
I am really sorry about this guys, i am trying to work out why this is happening.  My virus software says there is nothing worng but we all can tell it is not!  I am going to remove my address book from the computer and see if that helps!
Please dont be cross.  you coud try putting a bar on the particular message to stop it from coming in on your end?  But I am going to call a tech friend tonight! 
 

[ozmidwifery] West Today

[Denise Hynd]

Dear all 
I trust you all read page 15 in today's West by 
Geraldine Mellett
 
Anyone able to transcribe to the list for those who 
did not??
Denise Hynd
 
"Never believe that a few caring people can't 
change the world.  For, indeed, they are the only ones who ever 
have."  Margaret Mead

[ozmidwifery] West Today

[Denise Hynd]

Dear all 
I trust you all read page 15 in today's West by 
Geraldine Mellett
 
Anyone able to transcribe to the list for those who 
did not??
Denise Hynd
 
"Never believe that a few caring people can't 
change the world.  For, indeed, they are the only ones who ever 
have."  Margaret Mead

Re: [ozmidwifery] Vegan and pro-choice (was abortion etc)

[Nikki Macfarlane]

Abby,
This is clearly an issue that you feel very strongly about and one that you 
are willing to fight for. I applaud you for having such a passion.

Thought it might be worth considering the perspective of others for short 
time. Abortion for most women is not an easy decision. It is not something 
they do without an enormous amount of consideration and addressing each of 
the alternatives. Yet for many, there simply is not a viable alternative. 
There are women who choose abortion following a rape, or a diagnosis of 
abnormality - sometimes one that is incompatible with life. For others they 
decide to have an abortion because their financial circumstances, their 
emotional state or their immaturity are not compatible with the raising of a 
child.

Yes, for many adoption is an option. However, this is not something many 
women wish to consider since it still means continuing with a pregnancy that 
they do not want. You may see this as convenience, but to do so negates the 
emotional impact of an unwanted pregnancy on a woman's life. You may also 
argue that in these cases the mother is not considering the emotional impact 
on the baby who did not ask to be conceived and certainly would not ask to 
be aborted. Perhaps.

At the end of the day though, if abortion were not a viable alternative for 
women legally, it would still take place illegally and would increase the 
health risk to many many women.

You said that you judge the choice rather than the woman. However, in using 
such emotional language your argument comes across as being extremely 
judgemental of the woman. I fail to see how you can judge the choice and not 
the woman who made it. Judging someone does not mean that you cease to be 
friends with them as you seemed to imply when you mentioned that your close 
friend had an abortion. Judging someone is about thinking less of them for 
their choices or lifestyle. Can you honestly say that you still have the 
same respect for your friend after she chose an abortion?

If you have ever been in a position where you had to face an unwanted 
pregnancy, then I applaud you again for making the decision to keep your 
baby against the odds or for making an extremely difficult choice of 
adoption. If you have never been in this position then please consider how 
it feels to walk the shoes of a woman who discovers she is pregnant and 
feels simply devastated by this and unable to continue with her pregnancy.

Women who choose abortion know all too well that they are ending a life. 
They also understand the magnitude of such a decision. It is not light 
hearted nor is it a choice they want to make.

Surely our goal should be to help women have healthy babies when they want 
them, provide support to those who choose to adopt their babies out and show 
compassion for those who feel they can no longer continue with their 
pregnancy and choose abortion.

Clearly those on the pro life and the pro choice sides of the fence are 
never going to see eye to eye on this issue. But if our focus is on helping 
women in all their choices to make the choice that is best for them, and 
providing education to help women understand their options, we are at least 
working towards the same goal.

Respectfully,
Nikki Macfarlane
www.childbirthinternational.com
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[ozmidwifery] abortion 'discussion'?

[Belinda Maier]

I am extraordinarily disappointed that for some women the devotion to the
care and wellbeing of women extends only to those who 'fit'. I accept any
woman's right to belief in how to manage their own lifestyle and the choices
therein, therefore  I think it is absolutely okay to disagree with
abortions. However using language of violence  (belonging usually to the
domain of men) to propagate a viewpoint through its emotive intent is
narrow-minded, shortsighted and I feel illustrates the simplistic social
viewpoint of women and the framework that enables the judgement of their
supposed choices. There is no room in this for compassion or humanity. As
the saying goes you have to walk a mile in a persons shoes before you should
deem to understand therefore judge them.
It is (disappointedly) interesting that violent language  is the very nature
of the obstetric reasons for intervening in birth i.e. forceps to stop the
baby being battered against the rigid wall of the perineum, uncontrolled
mutilating tears as a reason to cut a woman's vagina and perineum, etc etc.
There is no way in my mind that it is women centered or woman focused to
describe the complexity of the choices; reasons and emotions around abortion
in such simplistic demeaning and judgmental ways.
Vegetarianism and abortion, I find that incredibly ridiculous!
Is it better to go back to forcing women who still have little sexual
autonomy in todays society to birth children that for what ever reason are
not 'wanted' or whom will place a particular burden on the woman. We can
always say yes but I would do ..., hwoever it is not you or me, it is no
ones place to make such chocies and live with those choices but the woman
herslef. Violence is perpetrated against women and children all over the
world, lets not equate abortion in this, lets make the world a better place
for women and children to be born into and to live.
Like anything in life there are no easy answers
"This is a complicated and muddled world where unplanned pregnancues may be
wanted, where wanted children may emerge from unwnated pregnancues, where
the offspring of wanted pregnancies may be rejected, where infatuation with
infants grows cold and where children may be wanted soley to meet their
parents pathological needs." Juliet Cheetham 1977

I think if we can sit back and say the world is good, women are truly able
to make choices that do not stem from the social and cultural contexts' of
oppression; sexual and generded inequality and expolitation, patricahial
interest etc etc then maybe we can sit in judgement of drug addicts, and
choices such as abortion, until then vioence is perpetrated through language
and judegment. Unfortunatly it is, as it seems always, women who bear the
brunt, blame and gulit of peoples belief that they know better and sit in
judgement.
I have had to make hard choices in my career - do I really want to be with
womEn or not. It means I often have to leave my own sense of morality and
values where they belong in my private domain, this does not mean that I am
compromised, it does mean I can help far more women and maybe leave a little
of me with them...

For anyone who knows me knows I love quotes so I will finish here with a
couple...

your pain
  is the breaking
  of the shell
that encloses
your undserstanding.   Kahil Gibran

men are disturbed not by things
that happen
but by their opinion of the things
that happen   Epictetus

Before enlightenment
chopping wood
carrying water
After enlightenment
chopping wood
carrying water

  Zen Proverb


Belinda

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[ozmidwifery] abortion and working with women etc

[Honey Acharya]

Abby
I find your writings on abortion very judgemental 
of others. How can you sit in judgment when you personally have not been through 
abortion and know what it is like, or know why a woman would make that choice? 
It seems you have never had to face a situation personally with abortion. 
Or if you have you need to deal with your feelings about it adequetly rather 
than sit in judgment of others.
 
I have had two abortions personally - one an 
unwanted pregnancy at a very young age with failed contraceptives and the other 
a very much wanted pregnancy and abortion due to medical reasons (my health not 
the fetus'). They were hard situations and the grief I have experienced is 
enormous. I have reflected on my views on abortion many times and 
although I don't believe I would choose an abortion again for 
myself I still believe in a womans right to choose an abortion. 

 
Perhaps its time you turned the attention and 
energy around and focus on yourself and look at what it is inside yourself that 
you can't accept. 
 
I worry that someone who works with women regulary 
would hold such harsh views. How can you care and support them adequetly 
feeling the way you do?
Do you ask each woman before you work with them 
about their "abortion status" and decline working with them if they have had an 
abortion?
 
I didn't want to join this debate as it is such an 
emotive one and probably does no good, but your comments affected me and there 
are probably many women on this list who have had abortions so you are sitting 
in judgement of many and bringing up pain and many feelings for women in a very 
unloving and unsupportive way.
 
perhaps its time to take this debate to an abortion 
list rather than an ozmid one.
 
Thanks
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Abby and Toby 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:54 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion 
  etc
  
  >>Vegetarianism and abortion, I find that incredibly 
  ridiculous!
   
  I just can't get this comment out of my head. It 
  is so ridiculous...so ridiculous that some women don't eat meat 
  because they don't want to harm or kill an animal, yet they will 
  willfully, and by choice, harm and kill their unborn baby. I find this 
  incredibly ridiculous.
   
  Abby
   

[ozmidwifery] West Today

[Denise Hynd]

Dear all 
I trust you all read page 15 in today's West by 
Geraldine Mellett
 
Anyone able to transcribe to the list for those who 
did not??
Denise Hynd
 
"Never believe that a few caring people can't 
change the world.  For, indeed, they are the only ones who ever 
have."  Margaret Mead

Re: [ozmidwifery] Vegan and pro-choice (was abortion etc)

[Abby and Toby]

>>We are talking about a procedure much more akin to the removal of
unwanted/unviable flesh from a woman's body, to assess it from a purely
medical point of view.

I would love to hear this said to Gianna, the aborted fetus that lived to
tell of her story. How can we call, something two people have partaked in
creating "unwanted/unviable flesh"? The problem is, that piece of flesh has
a soul, has nerve endings, can feel pain, can have eyes, ears, toes, finger,
organs etc etc this is not just "flesh".
How can we assess anything from a "purely medical view" for our bodies are
not purely medical. We are body, mind and spirit, living as one being.
I find the idea of viability an interesting one, because, if a baby and
mother were all alone, no support, but the baby was alive and born, would it
then be okay for the mother to kill her baby? It certainly wouldn't be
"viable" if she left it alone never to return.

I agree that this is not a list to argue on and I don't really fancy arguing
by email as so many things are misinterpreted. I will admit that I am a
hypocrite in the fact of eating meat (though, as soon as I could I made a
decision not to eat meat and started only when I felt my body needed it for
a time)  though I do hold human life in much higher regard, way above an
animals life. I don't ever believe that their is a "need" for abortion.
Most, true unviable pregnancies are naturally aborted by the mothers body.

Love Abby

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[ozmidwifery] Another client moving east!!!!

[Laraine Hood]

Hi all again, this time I have a Community 
Midwifery Program client moving around but will be in Brisbane for Christmas, 
and then probably birth in Tamworth EDB 5-02-05.  They are there for the 
Country Music Festival (about Jan 24th).  She had planned a 
homebirth  here in WA, but will be travelling in a caravan/camper so is 
unsure whether it will be possible to birth in it.  She has a 5 yr old and 
a 3 yr old also - straight forward births.  What is the birthing situation 
in Brisbane and Tamworth?  Mid led care?  Any homebirth midwives close 
by??? Hospital situation??  Thanks, Laraine.  In defence of this 
apparent exodus, we have also had several women and families travelling in buses 
etc, arrive in WA in time for a home birth!  

Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc

[Abby and Toby]

>>I don't find it ridiculous that you would 
say it. Vegetarians are often held to much "higher" expectations than others, 
but just in case you hadn't noticed they are human too and liable to all such 
vagaries.  Apparently refusing to eat animals or objecting to animal 
cruelty implies one is on another plane. Only to those who for some reason are 
offended by such a position. Vegetarians never portray themselves as "perfect". 
At least not in my experience (always the caveat).
 
Oh the joys of email without emotion! lol! 

I think you have misinterpreted what I was saying. 
I was a vego for years and still now am 90%. So...I don't think anything 
of vegetarians, except, yes, they are human. I don't believe that what you eat 
makes you any more or any less of a person.
My point being that I find it ironic that some 
vegos are so concerned by harming animal life, yet they will kill their own 
offspring. To me, this goes against their own philosophies, hence, 
irony.
 
Love Abby
 
 

Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc

[Abby and Toby]

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc



>>Abby, use your passion to work to reduce 
unwanted pregnancies, rather than judge those who make such a difficult 
choice.
 
Just wanted to make 
it clear that I judge the action, not the woman. A very good 
friend of mine had an abortion, I love her but I hate the decision she made. I 
mourn for her baby.
I also think that calling it as it is, 
isn't judging, it's just seeing the reality.
Thanks for the reminder to work to help 
reduce unwanted pregnancies.
I think it is important that we also 
remember that those "unwanted pregnancies" are not unwanted babies. There are 
hundreds of women and men around our country that would like to parent those 
babies through adoption. 
 
Love Abby

[ozmidwifery] review of maternity services in QLD

[cath nolan]

Hi,
 
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned previously. 
I have just seen Saturdays Australian (I live in a remote part of Australia and 
get the paper days later) regarding an invitation for public comment on pg 
7.,.into review of maternity services in QLD. There is an email for 
information.  info@maternityservicesreviewqld.net.au
 
or see the website. www.maternityservicesreviewqld.net.au   
 
contributions are sought by Mon 1 Nov.
 
Cath
 
 
 

RE: [ozmidwifery] Vegan and pro-choice (was abortion etc)

[Judy Giesaitis]

Well said Trish.  Years ago when I first started @ uni, we had one subject
on abortion specifically.  As I read, I found that I needed to take a stand,
one way or another, but the more that I read the less able I was to make a
stand.  I guess the old adage of " walk a mile in their shoes" is very true
for this subject  
Judy Giesaitis
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Vegan and pro-choice (was abortion etc)

[Trish David]

Dear Listers. I can't resist my two-bob's worth (yes a child of the predecimal
era). I would personally resist fundamentalism in all things, that is, the
extremist views on any topic, one way or the other. Fundamentalism is the
cause of many of the world's woes. Extremist views on abortion do defy logic,
but it is not merely an issue of logic. It is one of extreme complexity that
involves emotions, moral standpoints, ethical considerations for the
individual and her close associates, and the interests of society. It begs a
general rule to protect the generally held value for life (and logic dictates
that it is life, though of what kind is the subject of considerable debate),
yet it is always the value of one life against the value of its impact upon
another life. Therefore each circumstance requires its own merits in
deliberating how it plays out. What I mean is, general values for life might
be: Society values the life of unborn children, therefore it resists ending
such lives. However, society also values the lives of women, perhaps more as
already contributing members, and therefore seeks to support her ability to
live a meaningful, prosperous and healthy existence. General Rule: Her life
has primacy over the life of her unborn child.

If we hold that killing another human is ALWAYS wrong, no matter what
'quality' that human is, then we must logically refrain from killing all human
life (again the thorny issues of reproductive technologies raise their
head should we create a life knowing it will in likelihood be killed as in
creation of embryos for transplant). Should the fetus live at his mother's
expense?

If we hold to a sort of sliding scale of value for human life that sees some
life as more valuable, viable, important than others (eg judged against its
potential to improve or impede the general good) then we might make judicious
decisions about when and whose life to end. Logic then allows for termination
of pregnancy, euthenasia, capital punishment, self-defence killing, and war.

If we hold that the choice of the individual outweighs the opinions of others
on issues such as sovereignty of the self over the body, any woman may make a
choice to terminate a pregnancy, and a person may kill himself. If we hold
women and others are not sovereign over their own bodies, but are a vessel of
the product of the state or paterfamilias (the baby belongs to society so is
not hers in any case, or may be the father's etc), then she must go to jail
for smoking in pregnancy or be tried for murder if the baby dies in utero.
Imagine what might happen in cases of unexplained fetal death, just like what
has happened with multiple SIDS in one family, the woman is always blamed.

Perhaps the issue is debated on personhood. Is it wrong to kill a person? If
so, when does the embryo become one? If based on traditional definitions of
self-awareness, cognitive abilities and the ability for self-determination,
then this allows for infanticide and involuntary euthenasia of the severely
mentally impaired, but not for war or capital punishment.

You can see that ethically the matter is not clear cut. Yes, abortion is
killing, but so is war, so is self-defense slaying, and so is capital
punishment. So is bombing Iraquis..

In reality, most people don't make moral/ethical decisions based on if/then
moral principles. They make them based on a thousand contingencies and
interests, and I believe that since we can never know first hand what these
are or how they are experienced by the individual we should never stand in
judgment of her. The best we can/should do is know ourself, and if we can't
serperate our own moral outrage from the actions of another, we should simply
decline to take part. In termination of pregnancy we have this choice. But we
should never make our opinions impact in a negative manner on her, she is
going through enough.

That's my stance um, well, stances, well, shifting positions. Oh, heck,
until it happens to me I will never know.

Trish

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[ozmidwifery] Vegan and pro-choice (was abortion etc)

[Leanne Veitch]

Abby and Toby wrote:
>>Vegetarianism and abortion, I find that incredibly ridiculous!
 
I just can't get this comment out of my head. It is so 
ridiculous...so ridiculous that some women don't eat meat 
because they don't want to harm or kill an animal, yet they will 
willfully, and by choice, harm and kill their unborn baby. I find this 
incredibly ridiculous.
As a pro-choice vegan, I actually find that quite offensive.
One could argue (as you've raised the issue), it is equally (if not 
more) ridiculous to claim to be 'pro-life' yet to kill intelligent, 
sentient animals needlessly for your pleasure because you happen to like 
the taste of their dead bodies. Being a selectively 'pro-life' omnivore 
is more than a little hypocritical! Or do some lives matter more than 
others? And who are we to judge?

No-one in Western countries *needs* to consume animal flesh, so the 
slaughter and cruelty involved in the animal flesh industries is 
absolutely needless (I do not believe the same of third world countries, 
where food resources may be scarce and there may be absolute need to 
consume animal flesh, however).

Cruelty and animal abuse for no valid reason whatsoever can never be 
justified logically, whereas legal abortion certainly can be on numerous 
grounds (including the social and mental welfare of the woman, the 
specific situation involving her pregnancy, disabled or deformed 
fetuses, the avoidance of illegal, unsafe abortion etc.)

It should also be pointed out that in Australia, abortion is only legal 
several weeks before a fetus is medically 'viable'. We are not talking 
about killing sentient, viable children. We are talking about a 
procedure much more akin to the removal of unwanted/unviable flesh from 
a woman's body, to assess it from a purely medical point of view.

Any genuine argument against abortion of non-viable fetuses must 
invariably come from a religious / personal ethics point of view, and is 
simply not logical. Fortunately, we do not live in a society where the 
ethics/religious beliefs of a small percentage of Australians dictate 
the lives of the majority. Women who do not support abortion can simply 
choose not to have one. But they do not have the right to pass judgement 
on other women and their rights any more than I, as a vegan, have the 
right to force the omnivorous majority not to eat animal flesh.

Being pro-choice is a compassionate decision - we place the needs of 
women above the needs of an unborn fetus that is, scientifically and 
literally speaking, nowhere near as developed as the average pig going 
to slaughter. Being vegan and pro-choice, I am showing compassion and 
non-judgement for both women and animals. Being omnivorous and fiercely 
'pro-life' is, arguably, being compassionate to neither.

You have every right to be pro-choice, but you do not have the right to 
make decisions for other women, nor do you have the right to pass 
judgement on women who might have perfectly valid reasons for termination.

I do not wish to turn this issue into a huge debate or flame-war, so I 
will end my post on the note that we all have different beliefs, we all 
have different views, and we all have different ethics. That is what 
being part of the Australian community is about. But perhaps if we all 
showed a little more tolerance for ideas that differ from our own, 
instead of branding them as 'ridiculous' and trying to shove our own 
viewpoint down other people's necks, we'd all get along a great deal 
better. Respect for life - *all* life - must begin with respect for 
other people and their autonomy.

Should anyone wish to continue this discussion, please feel free to 
email me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that we show the courtesy of not 
bombarding the rest of the list (who may not be interested in this 
off-topic issue) with emails.

Leanne.
 
Abby

 

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Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc

[Marilyn Kleidon]

Abby:
 
I don't find it ridiculous that you would say it. 
Vegetarians are often held to much "higher" expectations than others, but just 
in case you hadn't noticed they are human too and liable to all such 
vagaries.  Apparently refusing to eat animals or objecting to animal 
cruelty implies one is on another plane. Only to those who for some reason are 
offended by such a position. Vegetarians never portray themselves as "perfect". 
At least not in my experience (always the caveat).
 
As the mother of 3 fabulous vegetarians (all women) 
and an aspiring one myself (vegetarian that is) I am amazed that you find 
the incongruities of life amazing. My daughters are vegetarians primarily 
because they find all life sacred including vegetables, if people 
photosynthetized they would be far happier, however they don't (and neither so 
I) and so we eat...vegetables. Already a compromise has been made. Of course we 
find all human life sacred. However, as the daughters of midwives (my 
mother was one too) they and I are aware of the disparate lives many people lead 
including women who choose a vegetarian lifestyle. Truly, noone is immune. As 
Belinda said very well compassion and non-judgement of others is where we 
(midwives) must come from.  
 
Since my mother was a midwife in the good old days 
before women had their ever tentative "right" to safe abortions I actually do 
remember her grief when young healthy women came into hospital with gas gangrene 
often dying from septic shock. That was violence.
 
Women from all walks of life and philosophies 
choose abortions for various reasons but I have yet to meet one who made 
the decision lightly or as just another method of birth control. 
 
In the women I attend at birth I have yet to notice 
if previous abortions effected their birth process: I mean as a far as I am 
aware some such women birth spontaneously and well and others struggle 
trapped by the medicalised nature of their birthing environment: what I am 
saying is that there does not appear to be either a birthing advantage or 
disadvantage to having previous abortions. Perhaps we need a retrospective 
study?
 
I have worked on both sides of the fence so to 
speak in abortion clinics couselling women pre and postabortion and assisting 
(though not doing) the procedure. I also work as a midwife. The planned 
parenthood quote "A tube is inserted through the cervix into 
the uterus. A hand-held instrument gently empties the uterus" is actually entirely accurate: in a first  trimester abortion the 
uterus is still very small not yet out of the pelvis the procedure has to be 
physically gentle or the uterus will be perforated. The tube is very 
small because the cervix does not have to dilate fully. Because of previous 
experiences some women find any vaginal procedure tantamount to rape this 
includes a speculum exam for a pap smear, ve's during labour and birth, and most 
certainly an abortion. Surely if any of these procedures occurs when a woman is 
objecting then it is exactly that...rape. I personally have not witnessed such 
an event and have not met a practitioner who would proceed in such circumstance. 
Sadly, apparently this does not mean it has not happened. Of course 
abortion is NEVER an emotionally or spiritually  or psychologically  
"gentle" procedure.
 
I could go on and on but there is a time limit and 
I have to go to work. I totally agree with all Belinda and Justine have 
said.
 
marilyn

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Abby and Toby 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:54 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion 
  etc
  
  >>Vegetarianism and abortion, I find that incredibly 
  ridiculous!
   
  I just can't get this comment out of my head. It 
  is so ridiculous...so ridiculous that some women don't eat meat 
  because they don't want to harm or kill an animal, yet they will 
  willfully, and by choice, harm and kill their unborn baby. I find this 
  incredibly ridiculous.
   
  Abby
   

[ozmidwifery] West Today

[Denise Hynd]

Dear all 
I trust you all read page 15 in today's West by 
Geraldine Mellett
 
Anyone able to transcribe to the list for those who 
did not??
Denise Hynd
 
"Never believe that a few caring people can't 
change the world.  For, indeed, they are the only ones who ever 
have."  Margaret Mead

[ozmidwifery] West Today

[Denise Hynd]

Dear all 
I trust you all read page 15 in today's West by 
Geraldine Mellett
 
Anyone able to transcribe to the list for those who 
did not??
Denise Hynd
 
"Never believe that a few caring people can't 
change the world.  For, indeed, they are the only ones who ever 
have."  Margaret Mead

[ozmidwifery] West Today

[Denise Hynd]

Dear all 
I trust you all read page 15 in today's West by 
Geraldine Mellett
 
Anyone able to transcribe to the list for those who 
did not??
Denise Hynd
 
"Never believe that a few caring people can't 
change the world.  For, indeed, they are the only ones who ever 
have."  Margaret Mead

[ozmidwifery] West Today

[Denise Hynd]

Dear all 
I trust you all read page 15 in today's West by 
Geraldine Mellett
 
Anyone able to transcribe to the list for those who 
did not??
Denise Hynd
 
"Never believe that a few caring people can't 
change the world.  For, indeed, they are the only ones who ever 
have."  Margaret Mead

[ozmidwifery] Are there any Alice Springs midwives out there?

[Anglodutch NTL Account]

Hi all,

Just wondering if any midwives who work at ASH read this mailing list. If
so, I'd love to hear from you! I am presently working in the UK but coming
to work in Alice Springs early next year. You can contact me off list at
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Claudia Riley.




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Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: drug use in pregnancy

[sally]

Unfortunately drugs and violence are a fact of life, we see it every day on
the TV and in the papers, so it goes without saying that women and children
are affected. We need to give these women and children the best possible
care, to give them the best possible chance to help them change their lives.
Yes, it is very confronting, but as midwives being 'with women', are in the
best postion to provide this essential care.

We have a service specifically for drug and alcohol dependent women at the
hospital I work, and I have had the honour or working with the the two most
amazing and dedicated midwives who provide this service.

I have also worked as an Independent midwife.so I know what it is
like on both sides of the fence.The divide between the women accessing these
services is practically insurmountable  but equally so, so important.

Sally
- Original Message -
From: "Nicole Christensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: drug use in pregnancy


> Thank you Belinda - I too hope that she recieves the extra support you
> mentioned (and that it is actually available here!) - both ante and
> post-natally ...for both her AND her baby
> kindest regards,
> Nicole
> ps. I have dreams and aspirations of undertaking the direct entry Bach. of
> Midwifery at UTS when my 2 little ones are older (at least 4 years
> away)but would find this kind of thing VERY difficult ...(ie. drug use
> in pregnancy/violent homes)...
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 8:22 AM
> Subject: [ozmidwifery] Re: drug use in pregnancy
>
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Nicole,
> > I work at the Royal Women's Hospital in melb and we see a lot of women
> with
> > drug problems. They are asked in clinic if they smoke/drink or take
drugs
> > and they are usually very honest about this. We have a special clinic
that
> > look after young Mums and another especially for women with drug
problems.
> > They are given extra support and are followed up more thoroughly too.
> > I hope she sees the light now she is pregnant.
> > Take care Belinda.
> > --
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> >
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>


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Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc

[Justine Caines]

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc



Dear Belinda

Your message was very wise and respectful.

I have kept it in my stored messages as one of those re-reads.

Having lived through an abortion debate in the ACT Legislative Assembly (whilst heavily pregnant with our first child) I learnt many things.

Who wants unwanted pregnancies or for women to face this agonising decision? I am yet to see real action by anti abortion politicians to actually address the real issues that surround the vast majority of unwanted pregnancies, poverty, abuse and violence.  This is all too hard for the majority of pollies!  

Senator Amada Vanstone made a speech in 1989 of what she saw as the real reasons for the vast majority of abortions and they were these very issues.  It was a great speech. The sad irony is that it is her Gov that has exacerbated so many of these issues!

Abby, use your passion to work to reduce unwanted pregnancies, rather than judge those who make such a difficult choice.

And while we are talking about the insane money that Drs get paid, the Medicare safety net blow-out for private Obstetricians could be as high as $200 Million (potentially every year).

Just imagine what this money could do to assist women and their families.  

There would be many more million if the majority of women were able to choose a midwife so you could easily double this figure!

Hey let’s not get mad or sad or bad instead  do the little bit that we can to impact on women’s lives.  For every sad story there is an amazing one.  Behind the beautiful birth stories is a wonderful midwife and that’s what we’re here for.

So here’s to strong women, wonderful midwives and beautiful babies and families...

Justine
xx

[ozmidwifery] Fw: Joyous Birth Fw: [birthnews] FW: raffle to support Jeanine Parvati Baker, birthkeeper

[Abby and Toby]

-Original Message-From: Sarah J Buckley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: 
Monday, 13 September 2004 8:12 PMTo: Sarah BuckleySubject: 
raffle to support Jeanine Parvati Baker, birthkeeper

Dear friends
 
I am organising the Australian branch of a US raffle to benefit my 
friend and mentor Jeanine Parvati Baker.
 
Jeanine Parvati Baker has been a birthkeeper, as she 
calls herself, for over 30 years. Jeanine Parvati wrote the 
first-ever book on prenatal yoga in 1972 (Prenatal Yoga and Natural 
Childbirth,recently revised) and has been attending women as a lay 
midwife in her home state of Utah for a generation. A mother of 6 and 
grandmother, she is also an accomplished herbalist (as her book Hygeia, A 
Woman's Herbal shows); astrologer and yogini. She also co-wrote the awesome 
Conscious Conception, one of my favourite-ever books.Jeanine Parvati coined the 
phrase Healing birth is healing the earth, and her life has been dedicated to 
this work for everyone on our planet. JP visited Australia in 1996, 
where she touched many lives and families, including mine. For more about JP and 
her writing,  see her luscious site www.birthkeeper.com.
 
Jeanine Parvati has been seriously unwell this year, and unable to 
work.  A raffle has been organised by her friends, based in the US, with 
first prize of a gorgeous king-size quilt,named Parvati's paradise. For a 
vision of the quilt, and more info about the raffle, see http://sparklinglotusink.com/PPQP.html (NB 
ticket prices on this site are in US Dollars).
 
 As well as the quilt, ancillary prizes include a copy of the book 
Lotus Birth (with chapter by JP - see http://www.acegraphics.com.au/product/book/bk663.html) 
 and, for Australian supporters, three copies of the 2005 Bellies 
Bots, Boobs and Babes calendars, valued at $15 each.(See http://www.cybercoast.com.au/homebirth/calendar.htm) 

Also an additional ancillary prize -- JP is donating her newest collection 
of writing, THE POSSIBLE MOTHER BOOKLET valued at $25AUS -- a compilation 
of her columns 2002-2004 for the U.K. magazine, The Mother, see http://www.birthkeeper.com/Giftshop.html
 
Tickets are as follows, in Australian dollars
$5 (minimum purchase) for 4 tickets
$10 for 8 tickets
$15 for 13 tickets
$20 for 18 tickets
$40 for 38 tickets
$50 for 50 tickets
 
Please deposit the money into my account (AUSTRALIA ONLY) , as below, 
and  send me the receipt, along with your name, address, email 
and phone number.
 I will check and reply to you, send your details to the US where 
ticket numbers will be assigned to you, and forward the money to JPB's 
Australian account. She  will draw the raffle personally on November 26th. 

Commonwealth Bank 
Account number
BSB 063151 10056443
name- Sarah J Buckley
 
Alternatively, you can make a cheque out to Jeanine A Baker and post to me 
at the address below.
 
FOR THOSE IN THE US, see the website http://sparklinglotusink.com/PPQP.html  
to buy tickets.
 
Please help to spread the word for JP, our living treasure, and 
 email on to your friends and contacts. 
 
Thank you for your support
Blessings
Sarah
 
Sarah J Buckley245 Sugars RdAnstead, Qld 
4070Australia
[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]"Healing 
birth is healing the earth"www.freestone.org/hygieia/additionalpostings.htmlwww.womenofspirit.asn.au/sarahjbuckleywww.birthlove.com/pages/sarahwww.mothering.com/11-0-0/html/11-2-0/ecstatic-birth.shtml
Sarah J Buckley245 Sugars RdAnstead, Qld 4070Australia[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]"Healing 
birth is healing the earth"www.freestone.org/hygieia/additionalpostings.htmlwww.womenofspirit.asn.au/sarahjbuckleywww.birthlove.com/pages/sarahwww.mothering.com/11-0-0/html/11-2-0/ecstatic-birth.shtmlEvery 
woman and every baby and every family have the right to Joyous Birth! 


  
  
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: drug use in pregnancy

[Nicole Christensen]

Thank you Belinda - I too hope that she recieves the extra support you
mentioned (and that it is actually available here!) - both ante and
post-natally ...for both her AND her baby
kindest regards,
Nicole
ps. I have dreams and aspirations of undertaking the direct entry Bach. of
Midwifery at UTS when my 2 little ones are older (at least 4 years
away)but would find this kind of thing VERY difficult ...(ie. drug use
in pregnancy/violent homes)...


- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 8:22 AM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] Re: drug use in pregnancy


>
>
> Dear Nicole,
> I work at the Royal Women's Hospital in melb and we see a lot of women
with
> drug problems. They are asked in clinic if they smoke/drink or take drugs
> and they are usually very honest about this. We have a special clinic that
> look after young Mums and another especially for women with drug problems.
> They are given extra support and are followed up more thoroughly too.
> I hope she sees the light now she is pregnant.
> Take care Belinda.
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Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc

[Abby and Toby]

>>Vegetarianism and abortion, I find that incredibly 
ridiculous!
 
I just can't get this comment out of my head. It is 
so ridiculous...so ridiculous that some women don't eat meat because 
they don't want to harm or kill an animal, yet they will willfully, and by 
choice, harm and kill their unborn baby. I find this incredibly 
ridiculous.
 
Abby
 

Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc

[Abby and Toby]

" Abortion is a reflection that we have not met the needs of 
women.
Women deserve better than abortion."
Feminists For Life

[ozmidwifery] Abortion Facts in Australia

[Abby and Toby]

Here are some, what I find, disturbing facts about 
abortion in Australia.
 
-There are 100,000 abortions in Australia each year.-There are 800 
abortions each week in NSW - approximately 40,000 annually.-There are 
250,000 live births each year in Australia, which means that there are 2 aborted 
babies for every 5 born.-Worldwide, there are about 60-70 million abortions 
being carried out.-The average age of an aborted baby is 8 weeks.-There 
were only 40 adoptions in NSW in 1997.-Abortion is a multi-million dollar 
industry subsidised by the Australian taxpayer.-The top five 
abortionists in NSW earn $1.5 million per year from Medicare 
alone.-In Australia we now have a low birth rate (zero population 
growth), a high abortion rate and an aging population.-98% of abortions are 
for convenience (these reasons do not include medical purposes, rape or foetal 
deformities).In South Australia only 1% of abortions are claimed for medical 
grounds.Many women who have had abortions suffer from a condition known as 
Post-abortion syndrome
 
No wonder abortionists are so keen to keep abortion going, they sure do 
reap the "benefits".
 
Love Abby

Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc

[Abby and Toby]

>>Violence is perpetrated against women and children 
all over the world, lets not equate abortion in this, lets make the world a 
better place for women and children to be born into and to 
live.
I'm not sure that I quite understand what you are saying, 
but I think you are saying that we shouldn't use violent sayings when talking 
about abortion. If that is correct then I would like to ask how you would 
describe it, if not violent.
I believe that abortion is incredibly violent toward the 
unborn baby eg. dismemberment, limbs being torn from the body, being 
cut up and sucked out through a tube in a process called "menstrual 
extraction",  "suction aspiration" tears the fetus and placenta into small 
pieces which are sucked through the tube into a bottle and 
discarded, poisoning-which we all know causes extreme pain in most 
cases,  etc etc, I am not sure how else you can describe these things. 
They are definitely not loving and kind and gentle. What about the use of 
aborted babies bodies for research, is that too not violent? Let's face facts it 
is the killing of a life, life in its simplest most innocent form, how can 
anyone deny that. Even someone that is pro-abortion, I imagine, would have a 
hard time denying that those are all violent acts. 
It can also be very violent to women, physically and 
emotionally. It is a completely unnatural event, in most cases, and thus 
immeadiately creates risks. Having a vaccum stuck inside you to suck out the 
"contents", that you helped create, out of your uterus can of course pose a 
risk. Different procedures offer different risks, but here is a short list 
of damage that can be done -hemorrhage, infection, embolism, death, uterine 
perforation, cervical lacerations, pelvic inflammatory disease, increased risks 
of breast cancer, ectopic pregnancy, uterine damage etc etc. 
"National statistics on abortion show that 10% of 
women who undergo this procedure suffer from immediate complications. (1) Over 
one hundred different complications have been associated with induced abortion. 
“Minor” complications include: infections, bleeding, fevers, chronic abdominal 
pain, gastro-intestinal disturbances, vomiting, and Rh Sensitization. The nine 
most common “major” complications are infection, excessive bleeding, embolism, 
ripping or perforation of the uterus, anesthesia complications, convulsions, 
hemorrhage, cervical injury and endotoxic shock. (2) Can you imagine what an 
honest warning label might read like for such a procedure?! " Mary Cunningham 
Agee
How can we honestly say that abortion is not a violent 
act, against a mother and her child. these are only the physical risks, but many 
women carry emotional scars all their lives.
Just as we see women very uninformed of the risks of 
intervention during childbirth, we too see the very uninformed choice of 
abortion. By trying to not see the reality of abortion procedures ie. how 
violent they are, are we not exactly the same as the doctors that gloss over 
intervention in pregnancy and childbirth? This is a quote from www.plannedparenthood.org and the kind of 
glossing over I am talking about 
A tube is inserted through the cervix into the uterus. 
A hand-held instrument gently empties the uterus. 
Please someone tell me where is the description of the 
"hand-held" instrument? Where is the description of what happens to the baby? 
How at all does this empower women in their choices?
I wasn't going to enter my own thoughts into this but I am 
sick of women being told BS and am tired of people trying to see abortion as a 
"gentle" and loving thing to do for an unwanted baby. How many women do you 
think would really have an abortion if they could see the reality of what goes 
on, from what the drugs administered are doing to their bodies, to the baby 
being ripped apart, to a part of the being taken away?
I appreciate Jeanine as she is talking about real 
empowerment. Encouraging women to take control of their fertility and their 
bodies rather than being fed BS about their "choices" ( obviously if a woman is 
raped then it is not her choice, but she should still be told about the 
realities of her choices. Some women that are raped feel like they get raped a 
second time if they have an abortion. I can't find the link but I think it was 
something like 1% of abortions in Australia are because of 
rape.) 
I find it so distressing that abortion is used as a 
general form of "birth control". Apparently "98% of abortions are for 
convenience (these reasons do not include medical purposes, rape or foetal 
deformities)."
This email has bevome very long, so I will send a seperate 
one for other distressing facts about abortion.
 
Love Abby
 

Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc

[Denise Hynd]

More quotes and generosity of spirit 
thank you
Denise Hynd
 
"Never believe that a few caring people can't change the world.  For, 
indeed, they are the only ones who ever have."  Margaret Mead

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Belinda 
  Maier 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 6:05 
  AM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion 
  etc
  
  I am extraordinarily disappointed that for some women the devotion to 
  thecare and wellbeing of women extends only to those who 'fit'. I accept 
  anywoman's right to belief in how to manage their own lifestyle and the 
  choicestherein, therefore  I think it is absolutely okay to disagree 
  withabortions. However using language of violence  (belonging usually 
  to thedomain of men) to propagate a viewpoint through its emotive intent 
  isnarrow-minded, shortsighted and I feel illustrates the simplistic 
  socialviewpoint of women and the framework that enables the judgement of 
  theirsupposed choices. There is no room in this for compassion or 
  humanity. Asthe saying goes you have to walk a mile in a persons shoes 
  before you shoulddeem to understand therefore judge them.It is 
  (disappointedly) interesting that violent language  is the very 
  natureof the obstetric reasons for intervening in birth i.e. forceps to 
  stop thebaby being battered against the rigid wall of the perineum, 
  uncontrolledmutilating tears as a reason to cut a woman's vagina and 
  perineum, etc etc.There is no way in my mind that it is women centered or 
  woman focused todescribe the complexity of the choices; reasons and 
  emotions around abortionin such simplistic demeaning and judgmental 
  ways.Vegetarianism and abortion, I find that incredibly ridiculous!Is 
  it better to go back to forcing women who still have little sexualautonomy 
  in todays society to birth children that for what ever reason arenot 
  'wanted' or whom will place a particular burden on the woman. We canalways 
  say yes but I would do ..., hwoever it is not you or me, it is noones 
  place to make such chocies and live with those choices but the 
  womanherslef. Violence is perpetrated against women and children all over 
  theworld, lets not equate abortion in this, lets make the world a better 
  placefor women and children to be born into and to live.Like anything 
  in life there are no easy answers"This is a complicated and muddled world 
  where unplanned pregnancues may bewanted, where wanted children may emerge 
  from unwnated pregnancues, wherethe offspring of wanted pregnancies may be 
  rejected, where infatuation withinfants grows cold and where children may 
  be wanted soley to meet theirparents pathological needs." Juliet Cheetham 
  1977I think if we can sit back and say the world is good, women are 
  truly ableto make choices that do not stem from the social and cultural 
  contexts' ofoppression; sexual and generded inequality and expolitation, 
  patricahialinterest etc etc then maybe we can sit in judgement of drug 
  addicts, andchoices such as abortion, until then vioence is perpetrated 
  through languageand judegment. Unfortunatly it is, as it seems always, 
  women who bear thebrunt, blame and gulit of peoples belief that they know 
  better and sit injudgement.I have had to make hard choices in my 
  career - do I really want to be withwomEn or not. It means I often have to 
  leave my own sense of morality andvalues where they belong in my private 
  domain, this does not mean that I amcompromised, it does mean I can help 
  far more women and maybe leave a littleof me with them...For 
  anyone who knows me knows I love quotes so I will finish here with 
  acouple...your pain  is the 
  breaking  of the 
  shell    
  that enclosesyour undserstanding.   
  Kahil Gibranmen are disturbed not by thingsthat happenbut by 
  their opinion of the thingsthat 
  happen   
  EpictetusBefore enlightenmentchopping woodcarrying 
  waterAfter enlightenmentchopping woodcarrying 
  water  Zen 
  ProverbBelinda

[ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc

[Belinda Maier]

I am extraordinarily disappointed that for some women the devotion to 
thecare and wellbeing of women extends only to those who 'fit'. I accept 
anywoman's right to belief in how to manage their own lifestyle and the 
choicestherein, therefore  I think it is absolutely okay to disagree 
withabortions. However using language of violence  (belonging usually 
to thedomain of men) to propagate a viewpoint through its emotive intent 
isnarrow-minded, shortsighted and I feel illustrates the simplistic 
socialviewpoint of women and the framework that enables the judgement of 
theirsupposed choices. There is no room in this for compassion or humanity. 
Asthe saying goes you have to walk a mile in a persons shoes before you 
shoulddeem to understand therefore judge them.It is (disappointedly) 
interesting that violent language  is the very natureof the obstetric 
reasons for intervening in birth i.e. forceps to stop thebaby being battered 
against the rigid wall of the perineum, uncontrolledmutilating tears as a 
reason to cut a woman's vagina and perineum, etc etc.There is no way in my 
mind that it is women centered or woman focused todescribe the complexity of 
the choices; reasons and emotions around abortionin such simplistic 
demeaning and judgmental ways.Vegetarianism and abortion, I find that 
incredibly ridiculous!Is it better to go back to forcing women who still 
have little sexualautonomy in todays society to birth children that for what 
ever reason arenot 'wanted' or whom will place a particular burden on the 
woman. We canalways say yes but I would do ..., hwoever it is not you or me, 
it is noones place to make such chocies and live with those choices but the 
womanherslef. Violence is perpetrated against women and children all over 
theworld, lets not equate abortion in this, lets make the world a better 
placefor women and children to be born into and to live.Like anything in 
life there are no easy answers"This is a complicated and muddled world where 
unplanned pregnancues may bewanted, where wanted children may emerge from 
unwnated pregnancues, wherethe offspring of wanted pregnancies may be 
rejected, where infatuation withinfants grows cold and where children may be 
wanted soley to meet theirparents pathological needs." Juliet Cheetham 
1977I think if we can sit back and say the world is good, women are 
truly ableto make choices that do not stem from the social and cultural 
contexts' ofoppression; sexual and generded inequality and expolitation, 
patricahialinterest etc etc then maybe we can sit in judgement of drug 
addicts, andchoices such as abortion, until then vioence is perpetrated 
through languageand judegment. Unfortunatly it is, as it seems always, women 
who bear thebrunt, blame and gulit of peoples belief that they know better 
and sit injudgement.I have had to make hard choices in my career - do I 
really want to be withwomEn or not. It means I often have to leave my own 
sense of morality andvalues where they belong in my private domain, this 
does not mean that I amcompromised, it does mean I can help far more women 
and maybe leave a littleof me with them...For anyone who knows me 
knows I love quotes so I will finish here with acouple...your 
pain  is the breaking  of the 
shell    that 
enclosesyour undserstanding.   Kahil 
Gibranmen are disturbed not by thingsthat happenbut by their 
opinion of the thingsthat 
happen   
EpictetusBefore enlightenmentchopping woodcarrying 
waterAfter enlightenmentchopping woodcarrying 
water  Zen 
ProverbBelinda

Re: [ozmidwifery] antenatal notes template

[Andrea Quanchi]

Kirsten,
Sorry for taking so long to answer but I havent seen any other replies.

I just made up a card on my computer basing it on locally used ones that are quite good. The woman keep these. My antenatal notes I just do on my computer and is a copy of the same page and then I write contemporous notes as I need. Make up your own on your computer and then you can review and change them to suit your local need and make the language on them woman friendly.

Is this what you wanted to know

Andrea Quanchi
On Friday, September 10, 2004, at 11:29 AM, Callum & Kirsten wrote:

Hi,
can i get advice please regarding antenatal notes?
Are there any independents out there who make their own version of the hand held notes?
 
I am looking at making my own, partly due to having to for uni, but also for myself eventually when i'm independent.
 
Or any ideas on where to find really good ones?
 
Kirsten
student midwife
Darwin
 
~~~start life with a midwife~~~

Re: [ozmidwifery] Victorian Home Birth Stats

[Andrea Bilcliff]

Hi Katrina,
MIPPs have just received their copies in the mail of the 2003 stats. Is 
there anything I can help you with or copy for you?
Andrea Bilcliff

- Original Message - 

Hi, can someone please email me or point me in the direction of the most
recent Vic Homebirth Stats?
Many thanks,
Katrina

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[ozmidwifery] Fw: Joyous Birth Big sigh :) This is lovely

[Abby and Toby]

Subject: Joyous Birth Big sigh :) This is lovely

http://www.freep.com/news/statewire/sw104008_20040910.htmGreat, 
short homebirth story!
 
Love Abby
Every woman and every baby and every family have 
the right to Joyous Birth! 

  
  
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