Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
Thats a really good point re the term B/F nazi Barb, its amazing how words just slip into vocab and become naturalised there without due consideration, and its meant to be OK as it is embelished with so called humour , (not having a go at Jayne, or Di -? here at all)...i have used this term occassionally in the past and will never again... you are so right, thank you Barb for being brave and tellin it like it is. Love suzi - Original Message - From: Barbara Glare Chris Bright To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Hi, I'm being far more bah humbug than I really should be for christmas! Sorry. Jayne, I appreciate your sentiments, and realise we are on the same side. But could we please not use Nazi in relation to passionate supporters of breastfeeding? Most on this list put their heart and soul into birth and breastfeeding. The term nazi offends me to the core. I just can't bear it, and I just don't see the funny side about it. If breastfeeding supporters use it, even in jest, how can we expect others not to? (usually to deride the fantastic work done by breastfeeding counsellors and midwives) What new mother would want to speak to a Nazi? It turns people away from getting sound advice. Off my soapbox now! Barb
Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
Sorry :) Sometimes I'm at a loss for words. I'm been called one of those numerous times for my views on births/babies/breastfeeding. It doesn't offend me though. It's how I feel/live/believe. I'd never call a breastfeeding counsellor or midwive one! The ones I've met are far too good at what they do in getting the message across to have to resort to the way I blatantly state things at time. Guess that's why I'll never be able to be either one of those and instead spend my life getting my fix on list like ozmid! Here's to getting the message out there that there that breast is absolutely perfect. Jayne - Original Message - From: Barbara Glare Chris Bright To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Hi, I'm being far more bah humbug than I really should be for christmas! Sorry. Jayne, I appreciate your sentiments, and realise we are on the same side. But could we please not use Nazi in relation to passionate supporters of breastfeeding? Most on this list put their heart and soul into birth and breastfeeding. The term nazi offends me to the core. I just can't bear it, and I just don't see the funny side about it. If breastfeeding supporters use it, even in jest, how can we expect others not to? (usually to deride the fantastic work done by breastfeeding counsellors and midwives) What new mother would want to speak to a Nazi? It turns people away from getting sound advice. Off my soapbox now! Barb
Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
Thanks, Jayne. I guess I don't fit that theory at all! I am lucky to have no period. I think my body knows it's not time for another baby just yet! Jo On 23/12/2006, at 1:19 PM, jayne/jesse wrote: Hey Jo, I've read (sorry I can't reference to it but this has been in my own general research because of my interest in the subject) that one of the factors that could play a part in fertility returning when a women is breastfeeding is in fact their level of body fat. It pinpointed those with a higher than average level of body fat were more likely to have a return of fertility despite fully breastfeeding and eliminating other supposed factors such as introducing solids. But I think what you are saying is also very interesting. My body fat levels increased from about the time baby was around 8 months onwards until I modified my diet and exercise programs back to what they were pre pregnancy/baby days. Hormones?? I think with two of my babies, there were actually feeding a lot more (fully breastfed until close to 11 months old) when I noticed this happening than as younger infants. But lucky you on the no period yet! This is what I'm trying to caution over re breastfeeding as a contraception - there seems to not be a fixed set of rules that can be given out to each individual. Regards Jayne - Original Message - From: Jo Watson To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 2:05 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Hi Jayne, Are you saying that maternal fat levels increase when ovulation returns? If so, in which way? ie fatter = earlier or later? I have put on a significant amount of weight since having my bub almost 19 months ago, and we are still breastfeeding about 5 times in 24 hours, but for the last 3 months or so, he's been getting no milk between about 8pm and 4am (ish, give or take). I still have no periods! Jo On 22/12/2006, at 12:43 PM, jayne/jesse wrote: Being 100% pro breastfeeding Barb, I'd like to go along with your 98%. I have to agree with Janet though. There are very real reasons why the 98% does not apply to all in our culture particularly. Having 100% fully breastfed three babies from periods of 6 months to 11 months, not used bottles or dummies but did indeed co-sleep, sling baby and suckle on demand for the whole periods of time indicated, I became fertile at 4 months pp, 5 months pp and the last one was the shocker.6 weeks pp! I was fully aware of mucous signs before fertility returned and pinpointed them exactly except with the last one, I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me and I didn't believe it until it happened. So because of my experiences, I'm reluctant to spout 98% success rates re breastfeeding as contraception I have also heard that maternal fat levels can play a part - higher levels. Mine was actually average to low at the times when fertility returned. There was one thing that I feel triggered fertility returning and that was the point when my babies started to sleep for periods of 4 to 6 hours at a stretch through the night. Regards Jayne - Original Message - From: Janet Fraser To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I don't think it's risky or tricky, or silly for that matter. I was trying to be thorough in my reply and not make sweeping statements. Recently one of my moderators did some research on achieving fertility again while breastfeeding so she came up with a list which could equally be applied to Kylie's article. Obviously LA works a treat if you look at cultures which pursue child-led weaning but western culture just doesn't and therein can lie the problems for many people. Most people don't understand anything about bf in the first place, as we all know ; ) Here's the list in case you're interested, Kylie. It was for a member with a 2 year old who'd like to ttc but hasn't bled in 2 years and with no signs of bfing slowing. It's a very mixed bag of refs but some great ones : ) * Feeding EBM by bottle (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache: 1ilEf4An7dMJ:www.bfmed.org/ace-files/protocol/ finalcontraceptionprotocolsent2.pdf+lactational+am enorrhea +fertilityhl=engl=auct=clnkcd=30) * Supplementing feeds (formula or solids) * Increased use of pacifiers * Feeding on schedule instead of on demand * Increased intervals between feeds (4hrs during day, 6hrs at night) * Waiting until bub is 6mths or older * Reduce time at the breast during a feed (shorter feeds, no comfort sucking) * Reduce total time at the breast per day to 65 min or less (McNeilly AS, Glasier AF, Howie PW, Houston MJ, Cook A,Boyle H. Fertility after childbirth: pregnancy associated with breast feeding. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1983 Aug;19(2):167-73., http://www.medela.com/NewFiles/faq
RE: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
Radical is a good word :-) and doesn't imply crimes against humanity. For example, the Association of Radical Midwives gives this explanation: Why Radical? In the mid 70s, the majority of pregnant women in UK had labour induced by artificial rupture of membranes (ARM) around the date they were due. These initials were used when the group needed a name, using the dictionary definition of radical, (roots, origins, basics, etc.) which aptly described the basic midwifery skills which they hoped to revive. Happy holidays! Vedrana From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jayne/jesse Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 10:26 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Sorry :) Sometimes I'm at a loss for words. I'm been called one of those numerous times for my views on births/babies/breastfeeding. It doesn't offend me though. It's how I feel/live/believe. I'd never call a breastfeeding counsellor or midwive one! The ones I've met are far too good at what they do in getting the message across to have to resort to the way I blatantly state things at time. Guess that's why I'll never be able to be either one of those and instead spend my life getting my fix on list like ozmid! Here's to getting the message out there that there that breast is absolutely perfect. Jayne - Original Message - From: Barbara Glare Chris Bright mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Hi, I'm being far more bah humbug than I really should be for christmas! Sorry. Jayne, I appreciate your sentiments, and realise we are on the same side. But could we please not use Nazi in relation to passionate supporters of breastfeeding? Most on this list put their heart and soul into birth and breastfeeding. The term nazi offends me to the core. I just can't bear it, and I just don't see the funny side about it. If breastfeeding supporters use it, even in jest, how can we expect others not to? (usually to deride the fantastic work done by breastfeeding counsellors and midwives) What new mother would want to speak to a Nazi? It turns people away from getting sound advice. Off my soapbox now! Barb
Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
Hi Jayne, Are you saying that maternal fat levels increase when ovulation returns? If so, in which way? ie fatter = earlier or later? I have put on a significant amount of weight since having my bub almost 19 months ago, and we are still breastfeeding about 5 times in 24 hours, but for the last 3 months or so, he's been getting no milk between about 8pm and 4am (ish, give or take). I still have no periods! Jo On 22/12/2006, at 12:43 PM, jayne/jesse wrote: Being 100% pro breastfeeding Barb, I'd like to go along with your 98%. I have to agree with Janet though. There are very real reasons why the 98% does not apply to all in our culture particularly. Having 100% fully breastfed three babies from periods of 6 months to 11 months, not used bottles or dummies but did indeed co-sleep, sling baby and suckle on demand for the whole periods of time indicated, I became fertile at 4 months pp, 5 months pp and the last one was the shocker.6 weeks pp! I was fully aware of mucous signs before fertility returned and pinpointed them exactly except with the last one, I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me and I didn't believe it until it happened. So because of my experiences, I'm reluctant to spout 98% success rates re breastfeeding as contraception I have also heard that maternal fat levels can play a part - higher levels. Mine was actually average to low at the times when fertility returned. There was one thing that I feel triggered fertility returning and that was the point when my babies started to sleep for periods of 4 to 6 hours at a stretch through the night. Regards Jayne - Original Message - From: Janet Fraser To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I don't think it's risky or tricky, or silly for that matter. I was trying to be thorough in my reply and not make sweeping statements. Recently one of my moderators did some research on achieving fertility again while breastfeeding so she came up with a list which could equally be applied to Kylie's article. Obviously LA works a treat if you look at cultures which pursue child-led weaning but western culture just doesn't and therein can lie the problems for many people. Most people don't understand anything about bf in the first place, as we all know ; ) Here's the list in case you're interested, Kylie. It was for a member with a 2 year old who'd like to ttc but hasn't bled in 2 years and with no signs of bfing slowing. It's a very mixed bag of refs but some great ones : ) * Feeding EBM by bottle (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache: 1ilEf4An7dMJ:www.bfmed.org/ace-files/protocol/ finalcontraceptionprotocolsent2.pdf+lactational+am enorrhea +fertilityhl=engl=auct=clnkcd=30) * Supplementing feeds (formula or solids) * Increased use of pacifiers * Feeding on schedule instead of on demand * Increased intervals between feeds (4hrs during day, 6hrs at night) * Waiting until bub is 6mths or older * Reduce time at the breast during a feed (shorter feeds, no comfort sucking) * Reduce total time at the breast per day to 65 min or less (McNeilly AS, Glasier AF, Howie PW, Houston MJ, Cook A,Boyle H. Fertility after childbirth: pregnancy associated with breast feeding. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1983 Aug;19(2):167-73., http://www.medela.com/NewFiles/faq/lam.html) * Reduce night time feeds (Heinig MJ, Nommsen-Rivers LA, Peerson JM, Dewey KG. Factors related to duration of postpartum amenorrhoea among USA women with prolonged lactation. J Biosoc Sci. 1994 Oct;26 (4):517-27.,http://www.medela.com/NewFiles/faq/lam.html) * Stop co-sleeping, including no naps with your child during the day (Kippley, Sheila. Breastfeeding and Natural Child Spacing: How Ecological Breastfeeding Spaces Babies. Cincinnati: Couple to Couple League International, 1999,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Lactational_Amenorrhea_Method) * Be separated from your child for more than 3 hours a day (Kippley, Sheila. Breastfeeding and Natural Child Spacing: How Ecological Breastfeeding Spaces Babies. Cincinnati: Couple to Couple League International, 1999,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Lactational_Amenorrhea_Method) And what if you're a co-sleeping, fully BFing, no pacifier, BF on demand mumma? How long will it be until your period returns? Average return of menses for women following all [...] criteria is 14 months, with some reports as soon as 2 months and others as late as 42 months. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactati...norrhea_Method Of course, once your period does return, continuing breastfeeding can still affect your chances of conception. (http:// www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=7761906) Reference pages - very eclectic mix some ok, some good http://www.medela.com/NewFiles/faq/lam.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactati...norrhea_Method http://www.fhi.org
Fw: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
sorry if you get this twice, didn't come through on my computer Barb - Original Message - From: Barbara Glare Chris Bright To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Hi, It seems like evidence based practice stops at breastfeeding! Jayne, I understand what you are saying, and acknowledge that this was the case for you. But there have been very thorough studies, (as I outlined the other day) and studies that have verified the original studies, across affulent and developing studies. The combined pill is also 98% effective. do we warn women against using that? I (cross my heart) have a friend that got pregnant to her husband 2 years after he had a vasectomy. The dr said that some-times the tiny tubes can someimes grow back together. When I have mentioned this to friends, other people have reported of knowing people that this happened to. The minipill is only, what 70% successful. At an ABA meeting not long ago, everyone in the room knew some-one whose pelvis was too small for the baby to be born normally. Stories abounded about gruesome forceps birth, babies that nearly died and *necessary* caesarians. I nearly fainted in shock (before rapidly changing the subject) Before I did change the subject I pointed out that in fact this is not supported by evidence. It is indeed very rare for a woman to have a pelvis so small she can't birth her baby normally. Food for thought, really. Barb - Original Message - From: jayne/jesse To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:43 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Being 100% pro breastfeeding Barb, I'd like to go along with your 98%. I have to agree with Janet though. There are very real reasons why the 98% does not apply to all in our culture particularly. Having 100% fully breastfed three babies from periods of 6 months to 11 months, not used bottles or dummies but did indeed co-sleep, sling baby and suckle on demand for the whole periods of time indicated, I became fertile at 4 months pp, 5 months pp and the last one was the shocker.6 weeks pp! I was fully aware of mucous signs before fertility returned and pinpointed them exactly except with the last one, I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me and I didn't believe it until it happened. So because of my experiences, I'm reluctant to spout 98% success rates re breastfeeding as contraception I have also heard that maternal fat levels can play a part - higher levels. Mine was actually average to low at the times when fertility returned. There was one thing that I feel triggered fertility returning and that was the point when my babies started to sleep for periods of 4 to 6 hours at a stretch through the night. Regards Jayne - Original Message - From: Janet Fraser To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I don't think it's risky or tricky, or silly for that matter. I was trying to be thorough in my reply and not make sweeping statements. Recently one of my moderators did some research on achieving fertility again while breastfeeding so she came up with a list which could equally be applied to Kylie's article. Obviously LA works a treat if you look at cultures which pursue child-led weaning but western culture just doesn't and therein can lie the problems for many people. Most people don't understand anything about bf in the first place, as we all know ; ) Here's the list in case you're interested, Kylie. It was for a member with a 2 year old who'd like to ttc but hasn't bled in 2 years and with no signs of bfing slowing. It's a very mixed bag of refs but some great ones : ) * Feeding EBM by bottle (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:1ilEf4An7dMJ:www.bfmed.org/ace-files/protocol/finalcontraceptionprotocolsent2.pdf+lactational+am enorrhea+fertilityhl=engl=auct=clnkcd=30) * Supplementing feeds (formula or solids) * Increased use of pacifiers * Feeding on schedule instead of on demand * Increased intervals between feeds (4hrs during day, 6hrs at night) * Waiting until bub is 6mths or older * Reduce time at the breast during a feed (shorter feeds, no comfort sucking) * Reduce total time at the breast per day to 65 min or less (McNeilly AS, Glasier AF, Howie PW, Houston MJ, Cook A,Boyle H. Fertility after childbirth: pregnancy associated with breast feeding. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1983 Aug;19(2):167-73., http://www.medela.com/NewFiles/faq/lam.html) * Reduce night time feeds (Heinig MJ, Nommsen-Rivers LA, Peerson JM, Dewey KG. Factors related to duration of postpartum amenorrhoea among USA women with prolonged lactation. J Biosoc Sci. 1994 Oct;26(4):517-27., http://www.medela.com
Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
Hi Barb, I'm the last person you need to tell about the crap that goes on and is spouted re birth and breastfeeding - I'm as Nazi as they come on both subjects :) I believe they should warm women re the pill, not for the failure rate but for plenty of other things that we as women know and experience but are certainly not documented and based on evidence that they would like us to see and hear about. I also know personally of 1 vasectomy failure. I guess my point is something like this re the breastfeeding and contraception, I was speaking from my very own real personal experience as someone who has practiced the Billings method for over 15 years and who breastfed 3 babies/children for over 10 years. I'm an expert on my own body - actually taken quite a personal interest over the years and I can say without a doubt that if I hadn't of been aware of the mucus changes at the times when fertility returned - as the average woman would not be (this is where I see the danger), there was a great chance that I would have found myself pregnant. Now, having taken an interest in this (personal like I said) I've spoken with other women and in particular women who have similar knowledge of the goings on with their bodies and it is far, far more common than we are led to believe. I would love to read the studies that you referenced to. Could you please direct me to were they are available? Personally, I do believe that it takes a woman that would show a bit more interest in her own personal well being to successfully use breastfeeing as a contraception and to reach that 98% success rate. Going to the doctor and taking their word on the pill is far more easier for most women unfortunately for them and their breastfeeding baby :( You know, the doctor always knows best! Anyway, I'm sure Kylie will do a great article - I've noticed that she goes beyond what the usual health orientated article offers. Barb, I would never ever try to steer a woman away from using breastfeeding as a contraception over the pill or the like. But I know where you are coming from. You have huge support from me re breastfeeding - what a different world this would be if most babies were breastfed. Regards Jayne - Original Message - From: Barbara Glare Chris Bright To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 5:56 AM Subject: Fw: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception sorry if you get this twice, didn't come through on my computer Barb - Original Message - From: Barbara Glare Chris Bright To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Hi, It seems like evidence based practice stops at breastfeeding! Jayne, I understand what you are saying, and acknowledge that this was the case for you. But there have been very thorough studies, (as I outlined the other day) and studies that have verified the original studies, across affulent and developing studies. The combined pill is also 98% effective. do we warn women against using that? I (cross my heart) have a friend that got pregnant to her husband 2 years after he had a vasectomy. The dr said that some-times the tiny tubes can someimes grow back together. When I have mentioned this to friends, other people have reported of knowing people that this happened to. The minipill is only, what 70% successful. At an ABA meeting not long ago, everyone in the room knew some-one whose pelvis was too small for the baby to be born normally. Stories abounded about gruesome forceps birth, babies that nearly died and *necessary* caesarians. I nearly fainted in shock (before rapidly changing the subject) Before I did change the subject I pointed out that in fact this is not supported by evidence. It is indeed very rare for a woman to have a pelvis so small she can't birth her baby normally. Food for thought, really. Barb - Original Message - From: jayne/jesse To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:43 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Being 100% pro breastfeeding Barb, I'd like to go along with your 98%. I have to agree with Janet though. There are very real reasons why the 98% does not apply to all in our culture particularly. Having 100% fully breastfed three babies from periods of 6 months to 11 months, not used bottles or dummies but did indeed co-sleep, sling baby and suckle on demand for the whole periods of time indicated, I became fertile at 4 months pp, 5 months pp and the last one was the shocker.6 weeks pp! I was fully aware of mucous signs before fertility returned and pinpointed them exactly except with the last one, I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me and I didn't believe it until it happened. So because of my experiences, I'm
Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
Hey Jo, I've read (sorry I can't reference to it but this has been in my own general research because of my interest in the subject) that one of the factors that could play a part in fertility returning when a women is breastfeeding is in fact their level of body fat. It pinpointed those with a higher than average level of body fat were more likely to have a return of fertility despite fully breastfeeding and eliminating other supposed factors such as introducing solids. But I think what you are saying is also very interesting. My body fat levels increased from about the time baby was around 8 months onwards until I modified my diet and exercise programs back to what they were pre pregnancy/baby days. Hormones?? I think with two of my babies, there were actually feeding a lot more (fully breastfed until close to 11 months old) when I noticed this happening than as younger infants. But lucky you on the no period yet! This is what I'm trying to caution over re breastfeeding as a contraception - there seems to not be a fixed set of rules that can be given out to each individual. Regards Jayne - Original Message - From: Jo Watson To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 2:05 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Hi Jayne, Are you saying that maternal fat levels increase when ovulation returns? If so, in which way? ie fatter = earlier or later? I have put on a significant amount of weight since having my bub almost 19 months ago, and we are still breastfeeding about 5 times in 24 hours, but for the last 3 months or so, he's been getting no milk between about 8pm and 4am (ish, give or take). I still have no periods! Jo On 22/12/2006, at 12:43 PM, jayne/jesse wrote: Being 100% pro breastfeeding Barb, I'd like to go along with your 98%. I have to agree with Janet though. There are very real reasons why the 98% does not apply to all in our culture particularly. Having 100% fully breastfed three babies from periods of 6 months to 11 months, not used bottles or dummies but did indeed co-sleep, sling baby and suckle on demand for the whole periods of time indicated, I became fertile at 4 months pp, 5 months pp and the last one was the shocker.6 weeks pp! I was fully aware of mucous signs before fertility returned and pinpointed them exactly except with the last one, I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me and I didn't believe it until it happened. So because of my experiences, I'm reluctant to spout 98% success rates re breastfeeding as contraception I have also heard that maternal fat levels can play a part - higher levels. Mine was actually average to low at the times when fertility returned. There was one thing that I feel triggered fertility returning and that was the point when my babies started to sleep for periods of 4 to 6 hours at a stretch through the night. Regards Jayne - Original Message - From: Janet Fraser To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I don't think it's risky or tricky, or silly for that matter. I was trying to be thorough in my reply and not make sweeping statements. Recently one of my moderators did some research on achieving fertility again while breastfeeding so she came up with a list which could equally be applied to Kylie's article. Obviously LA works a treat if you look at cultures which pursue child-led weaning but western culture just doesn't and therein can lie the problems for many people. Most people don't understand anything about bf in the first place, as we all know ; ) Here's the list in case you're interested, Kylie. It was for a member with a 2 year old who'd like to ttc but hasn't bled in 2 years and with no signs of bfing slowing. It's a very mixed bag of refs but some great ones : ) * Feeding EBM by bottle (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:1ilEf4An7dMJ:www.bfmed.org/ace-files/protocol/finalcontraceptionprotocolsent2.pdf+lactational+am enorrhea+fertilityhl=engl=auct=clnkcd=30) * Supplementing feeds (formula or solids) * Increased use of pacifiers * Feeding on schedule instead of on demand * Increased intervals between feeds (4hrs during day, 6hrs at night) * Waiting until bub is 6mths or older * Reduce time at the breast during a feed (shorter feeds, no comfort sucking) * Reduce total time at the breast per day to 65 min or less (McNeilly AS, Glasier AF, Howie PW, Houston MJ, Cook A,Boyle H. Fertility after childbirth: pregnancy associated with breast feeding. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1983 Aug;19(2):167-73., http://www.medela.com/NewFiles/faq/lam.html) * Reduce night time feeds (Heinig MJ, Nommsen-Rivers LA, Peerson JM, Dewey KG. Factors related to duration of postpartum
FW: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
Trying once again :-) My experience is two years of lactational amenorrhea (one and only child). I did breastfeed very often in the first year, every hour or so and very often during the night (for a long time every two hours or even more often), co-sleeped, no dummies, was there with him all day long. In the second year I went back to work and didn't breastfeed for 9 hours, but he made it up when we were together. I think it was also every two hours or so during the night. I'm thin and weight-loss was a problem for me after giving birth, I kept losing weight without wanting to. But this is all anecdotal evidence. Vedrana From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jayne/jesse Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 5:43 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Being 100% pro breastfeeding Barb, I'd like to go along with your 98%. I have to agree with Janet though. There are very real reasons why the 98% does not apply to all in our culture particularly. Having 100% fully breastfed three babies from periods of 6 months to 11 months, not used bottles or dummies but did indeed co-sleep, sling baby and suckle on demand for the whole periods of time indicated, I became fertile at 4 months pp, 5 months pp and the last one was the shocker.6 weeks pp! I was fully aware of mucous signs before fertility returned and pinpointed them exactly except with the last one, I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me and I didn't believe it until it happened. So because of my experiences, I'm reluctant to spout 98% success rates re breastfeeding as contraception I have also heard that maternal fat levels can play a part - higher levels. Mine was actually average to low at the times when fertility returned. There was one thing that I feel triggered fertility returning and that was the point when my babies started to sleep for periods of 4 to 6 hours at a stretch through the night. Regards Jayne - Original Message - From: Janet Fraser mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I don't think it's risky or tricky, or silly for that matter. I was trying to be thorough in my reply and not make sweeping statements. Recently one of my moderators did some research on achieving fertility again while breastfeeding so she came up with a list which could equally be applied to Kylie's article. Obviously LA works a treat if you look at cultures which pursue child-led weaning but western culture just doesn't and therein can lie the problems for many people. Most people don't understand anything about bf in the first place, as we all know ; ) Here's the list in case you're interested, Kylie. It was for a member with a 2 year old who'd like to ttc but hasn't bled in 2 years and with no signs of bfing slowing. It's a very mixed bag of refs but some great ones : ) * Feeding EBM by bottle (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:1ilEf4An7dMJ:www.bfmed.org/ace-files/protocol/finalcontraceptionprotocolsent2.pdf+lactational+am enorrhea+fertilityhl=engl=auct=clnkcd=30 http://www.bfmed.org/ace-files/protocol/finalcontraceptionprotocolsent2.pdf+lactational+amenorrhea+fertilityhl=engl=auct=clnkcd=30 ) * Supplementing feeds (formula or solids) * Increased use of pacifiers * Feeding on schedule instead of on demand * Increased intervals between feeds (4hrs during day, 6hrs at night) * Waiting until bub is 6mths or older * Reduce time at the breast during a feed (shorter feeds, no comfort sucking) * Reduce total time at the breast per day to 65 min or less (McNeilly AS, Glasier AF, Howie PW, Houston MJ, Cook A,Boyle H. Fertility after childbirth: pregnancy associated with breast feeding. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1983 Aug;19(2):167-73., http://www.medela.com/NewFiles/faq/lam.html http://www.medela.com/NewFiles/faq/lam.html ) * Reduce night time feeds (Heinig MJ, Nommsen-Rivers LA, Peerson JM, Dewey KG. Factors related to duration of postpartum amenorrhoea among USA women with prolonged lactation. J Biosoc Sci. 1994 Oct;26(4):517-27., http://www.medela.com/NewFiles/faq/lam.html http://www.medela.com/NewFiles/faq/lam.html ) * Stop co-sleeping, including no naps with your child during the day (Kippley, Sheila. Breastfeeding and Natural Child Spacing: How Ecological Breastfeeding Spaces Babies. Cincinnati: Couple to Couple League International, 1999, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactational_Amenorrhea_Method http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactational_Amenorrhea_Method ) * Be separated from your child for more than 3 hours a day (Kippley, Sheila. Breastfeeding and Natural
Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
Hi, I'm being far more bah humbug than I really should be for christmas! Sorry. Jayne, I appreciate your sentiments, and realise we are on the same side. But could we please not use Nazi in relation to passionate supporters of breastfeeding? Most on this list put their heart and soul into birth and breastfeeding. The term nazi offends me to the core. I just can't bear it, and I just don't see the funny side about it. If breastfeeding supporters use it, even in jest, how can we expect others not to? (usually to deride the fantastic work done by breastfeeding counsellors and midwives) What new mother would want to speak to a Nazi? It turns people away from getting sound advice. Off my soapbox now! Barb
RE: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
You might want to search for ecological breastfeeding. This is what I found: Exclusive breastfeeding means giving your baby nothing but milk from your breast; frequent nursing (including at night); pacifying the baby at your breast, rather than with a rubber pacifier; and feeding without a schedule. These behaviors will likely dry up your cervical mucus and also keep you from ovulating or menstruating. Sheila Kippley, co-founder of the Couple to Couple League, a Catholic organization that promotes Natural Family Planning, calls these behaviors ecological breastfeeding when the mother also takes a daily nap with the baby, and sleeps with the baby for easy night nursings. but I'm sure there is more. Vedrana From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kylie Carberry Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 12:10 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I am doing a story on contraception for a pareting magazine. I want to state that the WHO confirmed breastfeeding as 98 per cent effective means of birth control for the first six months provided the baby was fully breasfed and periods have not commenced. So as far as the 'fully' part goes, how is that interpreted. My friend thought she was fully breastfeeding, however, her twin boys were sleeping 8 hours at night and thus she became pregnant when they were four months old. So does fully mean no less than four-hourly feeds. Or should women just take added precautions if they are not up for any little surprises. thanks in advance Kylie Carberry Freelance Journalist p: +61 2 42970115 m: +61 2 418220638 f: +61 2 42970747 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
I have recently met a woman who specifically gave up breastfeeding her six month old so she could get pregnant. That seemed like a real shame but she was very keen to get pregnant ASAP. What would ABA's advice be on this one? Helen - Original Message - From: Barbara Glare Chris Bright To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Hi, I don't think Lactational Amenorrhea is as risky or tricky as Janet said. From Breastfeeding Management (Brodribb)In 1988 the World Health Organisation and other interested parties formulated a concensus statement about the conditions under which Lactation provides an effective and safe form of contraception. Known as the Bellagio Concensus, it states that if a woman is fully or nearly fully breastfeeding, is amenorrhoeic and is less than 6 mnths postpartum she is 98% protected from pregnancy. Since that time, studies in Australia, Chile, the Phillippines, Pakistan and the USA have confirmed this concensus, often showing failure rates of lower than the two percent quoted. Thus, this applies in the developed as well as developing countries and in well nourished women. A further conference in Bellagio in 1995 confirmed the original findings and concluded that. Wheras amenorrheoea is an absolute requirement for ensuring a low risk of pregnancy, it might be possible to relax or break the requirement of full or nearly full breastfeeding. It may also be possible to extend the duration of use beyond 6 mnths. Kylie, please don't write an article that makes breastfeeding as a form or contraception seem unreliable, silly or so difficult to comply with that it would be impossible to use. (not that it sounds in any way like you would - but that is the tone often in such articles.) While the 2% are very vocal when they become pregnant, my observances are that Lactational Amenhorrea is extremely reliable. The thing to remember is that once your period is back all bets are off. (if under 6 mnths.) While this whole story demonstrates that the plural of stories is not data I returned to full time work when my son was 6 weeks old, and remained amenhorreac until he was 15mths, whereupon I had one period and then got pregnant with my 2nd. Barb - Original Message - From: Kylie Carberry To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception if one isn't sure has got to be a good thing, hey? Absolutely. thanks for that, Janet. Kylie Carberry Freelance Journalist p: +61 2 42970115 m: +61 2 418220638 f: +61 2 42970747 -- From: Janet Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:56:35 +1100 It's a complex list of stuff, not just bfing, that creates lactational ammenorhea, Kylie. Cosleeping, no dummies, no bottles of ebm, no being away from your child/ren longer than about 3 hours, and having a nap in the daytime with them among other things. And then ultimately each woman is different in her experience of menstruation recommencing. Women who use bfing in conjunction with knowing their own fertile signs are doubly covered and a barrier method now and then if one isn't sure has got to be a good thing, hey? J - Original Message - From: Kylie Carberry To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I am doing a story on contraception for a pareting magazine. I want to state that the WHO confirmed breastfeeding as 98 per cent effective means of birth control for the first six months provided the baby was fully breasfed and periods have not commenced. So as far as the 'fully' part goes, how is that interpreted. My friend thought she was fully breastfeeding, however, her twin boys were sleeping 8 hours at night and thus she became pregnant when they were four months old. So does fully mean no less than four-hourly feeds. Or should women just take added precautions if they are not up for any little surprises. thanks in advance Kylie Carberry Freelance Journalist p: +61 2 42970115 m: +61 2 418220638 f: +61 2 42970747 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe. __ NOD32 1932 (20061220) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http
RE: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
I have a friend who also wanted to get pregnant while breastfeeding so she gradually stopped nursing at night, got her period, got pregnant, gave birth and continued to breastfeed them both. Vedrana From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Helen and Graham Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 9:57 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I have recently met a woman who specifically gave up breastfeeding her six month old so she could get pregnant. That seemed like a real shame but she was very keen to get pregnant ASAP. What would ABA's advice be on this one? Helen - Original Message - From: Barbara Glare Chris Bright mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Hi, I don't think Lactational Amenorrhea is as risky or tricky as Janet said. From Breastfeeding Management (Brodribb)In 1988 the World Health Organisation and other interested parties formulated a concensus statement about the conditions under which Lactation provides an effective and safe form of contraception. Known as the Bellagio Concensus, it states that if a woman is fully or nearly fully breastfeeding, is amenorrhoeic and is less than 6 mnths postpartum she is 98% protected from pregnancy. Since that time, studies in Australia, Chile, the Phillippines, Pakistan and the USA have confirmed this concensus, often showing failure rates of lower than the two percent quoted. Thus, this applies in the developed as well as developing countries and in well nourished women. A further conference in Bellagio in 1995 confirmed the original findings and concluded that. Wheras amenorrheoea is an absolute requirement for ensuring a low risk of pregnancy, it might be possible to relax or break the requirement of full or nearly full breastfeeding. It may also be possible to extend the duration of use beyond 6 mnths. Kylie, please don't write an article that makes breastfeeding as a form or contraception seem unreliable, silly or so difficult to comply with that it would be impossible to use. (not that it sounds in any way like you would - but that is the tone often in such articles.) While the 2% are very vocal when they become pregnant, my observances are that Lactational Amenhorrea is extremely reliable. The thing to remember is that once your period is back all bets are off. (if under 6 mnths.) While this whole story demonstrates that the plural of stories is not data I returned to full time work when my son was 6 weeks old, and remained amenhorreac until he was 15mths, whereupon I had one period and then got pregnant with my 2nd. Barb - Original Message - From: Kylie Carberry mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception if one isn't sure has got to be a good thing, hey? Absolutely. thanks for that, Janet. Kylie Carberry Freelance Journalist p: +61 2 42970115 m: +61 2 418220638 f: +61 2 42970747 From: Janet Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:56:35 +1100 It's a complex list of stuff, not just bfing, that creates lactational ammenorhea, Kylie. Cosleeping, no dummies, no bottles of ebm, no being away from your child/ren longer than about 3 hours, and having a nap in the daytime with them among other things. And then ultimately each woman is different in her experience of menstruation recommencing. Women who use bfing in conjunction with knowing their own fertile signs are doubly covered and a barrier method now and then if one isn't sure has got to be a good thing, hey? J - Original Message - From: Kylie Carberry mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 10:09 AM
Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
Well, We'd ask a lot of questions first! Help her explore why she wanted/needed to become pregnant so soon. How many feeds was the baby having? Had her period returned yet? Any other signs of fertility returning? Usually women are able to cut down feeds so that they can still concieve. But, I guess it depends on the woman. Barb - Original Message - From: Helen and Graham To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I have recently met a woman who specifically gave up breastfeeding her six month old so she could get pregnant. That seemed like a real shame but she was very keen to get pregnant ASAP. What would ABA's advice be on this one? Helen - Original Message - From: Barbara Glare Chris Bright To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Hi, I don't think Lactational Amenorrhea is as risky or tricky as Janet said. From Breastfeeding Management (Brodribb)In 1988 the World Health Organisation and other interested parties formulated a concensus statement about the conditions under which Lactation provides an effective and safe form of contraception. Known as the Bellagio Concensus, it states that if a woman is fully or nearly fully breastfeeding, is amenorrhoeic and is less than 6 mnths postpartum she is 98% protected from pregnancy. Since that time, studies in Australia, Chile, the Phillippines, Pakistan and the USA have confirmed this concensus, often showing failure rates of lower than the two percent quoted. Thus, this applies in the developed as well as developing countries and in well nourished women. A further conference in Bellagio in 1995 confirmed the original findings and concluded that. Wheras amenorrheoea is an absolute requirement for ensuring a low risk of pregnancy, it might be possible to relax or break the requirement of full or nearly full breastfeeding. It may also be possible to extend the duration of use beyond 6 mnths. Kylie, please don't write an article that makes breastfeeding as a form or contraception seem unreliable, silly or so difficult to comply with that it would be impossible to use. (not that it sounds in any way like you would - but that is the tone often in such articles.) While the 2% are very vocal when they become pregnant, my observances are that Lactational Amenhorrea is extremely reliable. The thing to remember is that once your period is back all bets are off. (if under 6 mnths.) While this whole story demonstrates that the plural of stories is not data I returned to full time work when my son was 6 weeks old, and remained amenhorreac until he was 15mths, whereupon I had one period and then got pregnant with my 2nd. Barb - Original Message - From: Kylie Carberry To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception if one isn't sure has got to be a good thing, hey? Absolutely. thanks for that, Janet. Kylie Carberry Freelance Journalist p: +61 2 42970115 m: +61 2 418220638 f: +61 2 42970747 From: Janet Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:56:35 +1100 It's a complex list of stuff, not just bfing, that creates lactational ammenorhea, Kylie. Cosleeping, no dummies, no bottles of ebm, no being away from your child/ren longer than about 3 hours, and having a nap in the daytime with them among other things. And then ultimately each woman is different in her experience of menstruation recommencing. Women who use bfing in conjunction with knowing their own fertile signs are doubly covered and a barrier method now and then if one isn't sure has got to be a good thing, hey? J - Original Message - From: Kylie Carberry To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I am doing a story on contraception for a pareting magazine. I want to state that the WHO confirmed breastfeeding as 98 per cent effective means of birth control for the first six months provided the baby was fully breasfed and periods have not commenced. So as far as the 'fully' part goes, how is that interpreted. My friend thought she was fully breastfeeding, however, her twin boys were sleeping 8 hours at night and thus she became pregnant when they were four months
RE: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
I had a friend wean to get pregnant too, but this was a little later, about nine months. She is in her early to mid forties, and given the reduced fertility at that age, I think it is reasonable. Nicole. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Helen and Graham Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 7:57 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I have recently met a woman who specifically gave up breastfeeding her six month old so she could get pregnant. That seemed like a real shame but she was very keen to get pregnant ASAP. What would ABA's advice be on this one? Helen - Original Message - From: Barbara Glare Chris Bright To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Hi, I don't think Lactational Amenorrhea is as risky or tricky as Janet said. From Breastfeeding Management (Brodribb)In 1988 the World Health Organisation and other interested parties formulated a concensus statement about the conditions under which Lactation provides an effective and safe form of contraception. Known as the Bellagio Concensus, it states that if a woman is fully or nearly fully breastfeeding, is amenorrhoeic and is less than 6 mnths postpartum she is 98% protected from pregnancy. Since that time, studies in Australia, Chile, the Phillippines, Pakistan and the USA have confirmed this concensus, often showing failure rates of lower than the two percent quoted. Thus, this applies in the developed as well as developing countries and in well nourished women. A further conference in Bellagio in 1995 confirmed the original findings and concluded that. Wheras amenorrheoea is an absolute requirement for ensuring a low risk of pregnancy, it might be possible to relax or break the requirement of full or nearly full breastfeeding. It may also be possible to extend the duration of use beyond 6 mnths. Kylie, please don't write an article that makes breastfeeding as a form or contraception seem unreliable, silly or so difficult to comply with that it would be impossible to use. (not that it sounds in any way like you would - but that is the tone often in such articles.) While the 2% are very vocal when they become pregnant, my observances are that Lactational Amenhorrea is extremely reliable. The thing to remember is that once your period is back all bets are off. (if under 6 mnths.) While this whole story demonstrates that the plural of stories is not data I returned to full time work when my son was 6 weeks old, and remained amenhorreac until he was 15mths, whereupon I had one period and then got pregnant with my 2nd. Barb - Original Message - From: Kylie Carberry To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception if one isn't sure has got to be a good thing, hey? Absolutely. thanks for that, Janet. Kylie Carberry Freelance Journalist p: +61 2 42970115 m: +61 2 418220638 f: +61 2 42970747 From: Janet Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:56:35 +1100 It's a complex list of stuff, not just bfing, that creates lactational ammenorhea, Kylie. Cosleeping, no dummies, no bottles of ebm, no being away from your child/ren longer than about 3 hours, and having a nap in the daytime with them among other things. And then ultimately each woman is different in her experience of menstruation recommencing. Women who use bfing in conjunction with knowing their own fertile signs are doubly covered and a barrier method now and then if one isn't sure has got to be a good thing, hey? J - Original Message - From: Kylie Carberry To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I am doing a story on contraception for a pareting magazine. I want to state that the WHO confirmed breastfeeding as 98 per cent effective means of birth control for the first six months provided the baby was fully breasfed and periods have not commenced. So as far as the 'fully' part goes, how is that interpreted. My friend thought she was fully breastfeeding, however, her twin boys were sleeping 8 hours at night and thus she became pregnant when they were four months old. So does fully mean no less than four-hourly feeds. Or should women just take added precautions if they are not up for any little
RE: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
My Mum was fully breastfeeding me and fell pregnant with my sister when I was 3 months old. Her periods had also not started yet. I don't know how they can say it is 98% effective. I have heard of so many women who have fallen into this trap. I bleive if women do not want to fall pregnant again so soon other precautions should be taken - because you just never know. Jassy _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kylie Carberry Sent: Thursday, 21 December 2006 9:10 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I am doing a story on contraception for a pareting magazine. I want to state that the WHO confirmed breastfeeding as 98 per cent effective means of birth control for the first six months provided the baby was fully breasfed and periods have not commenced. So as far as the 'fully' part goes, how is that interpreted. My friend thought she was fully breastfeeding, however, her twin boys were sleeping 8 hours at night and thus she became pregnant when they were four months old. So does fully mean no less than four-hourly feeds. Or should women just take added precautions if they are not up for any little surprises. thanks in advance Kylie Carberry Freelance Journalist p: +61 2 42970115 m: +61 2 418220638 f: +61 2 42970747 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
Being 100% pro breastfeeding Barb, I'd like to go along with your 98%. I have to agree with Janet though. There are very real reasons why the 98% does not apply to all in our culture particularly. Having 100% fully breastfed three babies from periods of 6 months to 11 months, not used bottles or dummies but did indeed co-sleep, sling baby and suckle on demand for the whole periods of time indicated, I became fertile at 4 months pp, 5 months pp and the last one was the shocker.6 weeks pp! I was fully aware of mucous signs before fertility returned and pinpointed them exactly except with the last one, I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me and I didn't believe it until it happened. So because of my experiences, I'm reluctant to spout 98% success rates re breastfeeding as contraception I have also heard that maternal fat levels can play a part - higher levels. Mine was actually average to low at the times when fertility returned. There was one thing that I feel triggered fertility returning and that was the point when my babies started to sleep for periods of 4 to 6 hours at a stretch through the night. Regards Jayne - Original Message - From: Janet Fraser To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I don't think it's risky or tricky, or silly for that matter. I was trying to be thorough in my reply and not make sweeping statements. Recently one of my moderators did some research on achieving fertility again while breastfeeding so she came up with a list which could equally be applied to Kylie's article. Obviously LA works a treat if you look at cultures which pursue child-led weaning but western culture just doesn't and therein can lie the problems for many people. Most people don't understand anything about bf in the first place, as we all know ; ) Here's the list in case you're interested, Kylie. It was for a member with a 2 year old who'd like to ttc but hasn't bled in 2 years and with no signs of bfing slowing. It's a very mixed bag of refs but some great ones : ) * Feeding EBM by bottle (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:1ilEf4An7dMJ:www.bfmed.org/ace-files/protocol/finalcontraceptionprotocolsent2.pdf+lactational+am enorrhea+fertilityhl=engl=auct=clnkcd=30) * Supplementing feeds (formula or solids) * Increased use of pacifiers * Feeding on schedule instead of on demand * Increased intervals between feeds (4hrs during day, 6hrs at night) * Waiting until bub is 6mths or older * Reduce time at the breast during a feed (shorter feeds, no comfort sucking) * Reduce total time at the breast per day to 65 min or less (McNeilly AS, Glasier AF, Howie PW, Houston MJ, Cook A,Boyle H. Fertility after childbirth: pregnancy associated with breast feeding. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1983 Aug;19(2):167-73., http://www.medela.com/NewFiles/faq/lam.html) * Reduce night time feeds (Heinig MJ, Nommsen-Rivers LA, Peerson JM, Dewey KG. Factors related to duration of postpartum amenorrhoea among USA women with prolonged lactation. J Biosoc Sci. 1994 Oct;26(4):517-27., http://www.medela.com/NewFiles/faq/lam.html) * Stop co-sleeping, including no naps with your child during the day (Kippley, Sheila. Breastfeeding and Natural Child Spacing: How Ecological Breastfeeding Spaces Babies. Cincinnati: Couple to Couple League International, 1999, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactational_Amenorrhea_Method) * Be separated from your child for more than 3 hours a day (Kippley, Sheila. Breastfeeding and Natural Child Spacing: How Ecological Breastfeeding Spaces Babies. Cincinnati: Couple to Couple League International, 1999, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactational_Amenorrhea_Method) And what if you're a co-sleeping, fully BFing, no pacifier, BF on demand mumma? How long will it be until your period returns? Average return of menses for women following all [...] criteria is 14 months, with some reports as soon as 2 months and others as late as 42 months. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactati...norrhea_Method Of course, once your period does return, continuing breastfeeding can still affect your chances of conception. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=7761906) Reference pages - very eclectic mix some ok, some good http://www.medela.com/NewFiles/faq/lam.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactati...norrhea_Method http://www.fhi.org/training/en/modul...references.htm (lots of references for articles on lactational amenorrhea, if you want to do more research) http://www.fhi.org/training/en/modul...getstarted.htm http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:1ilEf4An7dMJ:www.bfmed.org/ace-files/protocol/finalcontraceptionprotocolsent2.pdf+lactational+am enorrhea+fertilityhl=engl=auct=clnkcd=30
[ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
I am doing a story on contraception for a pareting magazine. I want tostate that the WHO confirmed breastfeeding as 98 per cent effective means of birth controlfor the first six months provided the baby was fully breasfed and periods have not commenced. So as far as the 'fully' part goes, how is that interpreted. My friend thought she was fully breastfeeding, however, her twin boys were sleeping 8 hours at night and thus she became pregnant when they were four months old. So does fully mean no less than four-hourly feeds. Or should women just take added precautions if they are not up for any little surprises. thanks in advance Kylie Carberry Freelance Journalist p: +61 2 42970115 m: +61 2 418220638 f: +61 2 42970747 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
It's a complex list of stuff, not just bfing, that creates lactational ammenorhea, Kylie. Cosleeping, no dummies, no bottles of ebm, no being away from your child/ren longer than about 3 hours, and having a nap in the daytime with them among other things. And then ultimately each woman is different in her experience of menstruation recommencing. Women who use bfing in conjunction with knowing their own fertile signs are doubly covered and a barrier method now and then if one isn't sure has got to be a good thing, hey? J - Original Message - From: Kylie Carberry To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I am doing a story on contraception for a pareting magazine. I want to state that the WHO confirmed breastfeeding as 98 per cent effective means of birth control for the first six months provided the baby was fully breasfed and periods have not commenced. So as far as the 'fully' part goes, how is that interpreted. My friend thought she was fully breastfeeding, however, her twin boys were sleeping 8 hours at night and thus she became pregnant when they were four months old. So does fully mean no less than four-hourly feeds. Or should women just take added precautions if they are not up for any little surprises. thanks in advance Kylie Carberry Freelance Journalist p: +61 2 42970115 m: +61 2 418220638 f: +61 2 42970747 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
if one isn't sure has got to be a good thing, hey? Absolutely. thanks for that, Janet. Kylie Carberry Freelance Journalist p: +61 2 42970115 m: +61 2 418220638 f: +61 2 42970747 From: "Janet Fraser" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraceptionDate: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:56:35 +1100 It's a complex list of stuff, not just bfing, that creates lactational ammenorhea, Kylie. Cosleeping, no dummies, no bottles of ebm, no being away from your child/ren longer than about 3 hours, and having a nap in the daytime with them among other things. And then ultimately each woman is different in her experience of menstruation recommencing. Women who use bfing in conjunction with knowing their own fertile signs are doubly covered and a barrier method now and then if one isn't sure has got to be a good thing, hey? J - Original Message - From: Kylie Carberry To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I am doing a story on contraception for a pareting magazine. I want tostate that the WHO confirmed breastfeeding as 98 per cent effective means of birth controlfor the first six months provided the baby was fully breasfed and periods have not commenced. So as far as the 'fully' part goes, how is that interpreted. My friend thought she was fully breastfeeding, however, her twin boys were sleeping 8 hours at night and thus she became pregnant when they were four months old. So does fully mean no less than four-hourly feeds. Or should women just take added precautions if they are not up for any little surprises. thanks in advance Kylie Carberry Freelance Journalist p: +61 2 42970115 m: +61 2 418220638 f: +61 2 42970747-- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
I didn't have a period since falling pregnant with my 4.5 year old, until a few months ago. My mum thought something was seriously wrong with me and kept telling me to see the doctor, but because of infant-led breastfeeding, I knew it was why. I had some very, very light spotting one time when my first was a bit over 2 and had stopped feeding, so I wondered if I should try for my second. I knew I wanted to try, but I had no period prior to, so no idea what my cycle was, let alone if I was ovulating! So, I charted my temps for two weeks and fell pregnant. It was only a few months ago when I didn't feed my son overnight for a few nights that they came back with full force - not enjoying it very much as it hasn't settled down yet. But feel very blessed to not have to worry about it for 5 odd years!!! Best Regards, Kelly Zantey Creator, http://www.bellybelly.com.au BellyBelly.com.au Conception, Pregnancy, Birth and Baby http://www.bellybelly.com.au/birth-support BellyBelly Birth Support _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kylie Carberry Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 10:10 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I am doing a story on contraception for a pareting magazine. I want to state that the WHO confirmed breastfeeding as 98 per cent effective means of birth control for the first six months provided the baby was fully breasfed and periods have not commenced. So as far as the 'fully' part goes, how is that interpreted. My friend thought she was fully breastfeeding, however, her twin boys were sleeping 8 hours at night and thus she became pregnant when they were four months old. So does fully mean no less than four-hourly feeds. Or should women just take added precautions if they are not up for any little surprises. thanks in advance Kylie Carberry Freelance Journalist p: +61 2 42970115 m: +61 2 418220638 f: +61 2 42970747 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
Hi, I don't think Lactational Amenorrhea is as risky or tricky as Janet said. From Breastfeeding Management (Brodribb)In 1988 the World Health Organisation and other interested parties formulated a concensus statement about the conditions under which Lactation provides an effective and safe form of contraception. Known as the Bellagio Concensus, it states that if a woman is fully or nearly fully breastfeeding, is amenorrhoeic and is less than 6 mnths postpartum she is 98% protected from pregnancy. Since that time, studies in Australia, Chile, the Phillippines, Pakistan and the USA have confirmed this concensus, often showing failure rates of lower than the two percent quoted. Thus, this applies in the developed as well as developing countries and in well nourished women. A further conference in Bellagio in 1995 confirmed the original findings and concluded that. Wheras amenorrheoea is an absolute requirement for ensuring a low risk of pregnancy, it might be possible to relax or break the requirement of full or nearly full breastfeeding. It may also be possible to extend the duration of use beyond 6 mnths. Kylie, please don't write an article that makes breastfeeding as a form or contraception seem unreliable, silly or so difficult to comply with that it would be impossible to use. (not that it sounds in any way like you would - but that is the tone often in such articles.) While the 2% are very vocal when they become pregnant, my observances are that Lactational Amenhorrea is extremely reliable. The thing to remember is that once your period is back all bets are off. (if under 6 mnths.) While this whole story demonstrates that the plural of stories is not data I returned to full time work when my son was 6 weeks old, and remained amenhorreac until he was 15mths, whereupon I had one period and then got pregnant with my 2nd. Barb - Original Message - From: Kylie Carberry To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception if one isn't sure has got to be a good thing, hey? Absolutely. thanks for that, Janet. Kylie Carberry Freelance Journalist p: +61 2 42970115 m: +61 2 418220638 f: +61 2 42970747 From: Janet Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:56:35 +1100 It's a complex list of stuff, not just bfing, that creates lactational ammenorhea, Kylie. Cosleeping, no dummies, no bottles of ebm, no being away from your child/ren longer than about 3 hours, and having a nap in the daytime with them among other things. And then ultimately each woman is different in her experience of menstruation recommencing. Women who use bfing in conjunction with knowing their own fertile signs are doubly covered and a barrier method now and then if one isn't sure has got to be a good thing, hey? J - Original Message - From: Kylie Carberry To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception I am doing a story on contraception for a pareting magazine. I want to state that the WHO confirmed breastfeeding as 98 per cent effective means of birth control for the first six months provided the baby was fully breasfed and periods have not commenced. So as far as the 'fully' part goes, how is that interpreted. My friend thought she was fully breastfeeding, however, her twin boys were sleeping 8 hours at night and thus she became pregnant when they were four months old. So does fully mean no less than four-hourly feeds. Or should women just take added precautions if they are not up for any little surprises. thanks in advance Kylie Carberry Freelance Journalist p: +61 2 42970115 m: +61 2 418220638 f: +61 2 42970747 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] breastfeeding as contraception
I don't think it's risky or tricky, or silly for that matter. I was trying to be thorough in my reply and not make sweeping statements. Recently one of my moderators did some research on achieving fertility again while breastfeeding so she came up with a list which could equally be applied to Kylie's article. Obviously LA works a treat if you look at cultures which pursue child-led weaning but western culture just doesn't and therein can lie the problems for many people. Most people don't understand anything about bf in the first place, as we all know ; ) Here's the list in case you're interested, Kylie. It was for a member with a 2 year old who'd like to ttc but hasn't bled in 2 years and with no signs of bfing slowing. It's a very mixed bag of refs but some great ones : ) * Feeding EBM by bottle (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:1ilEf4An7dMJ:www.bfmed.org/ace-files/protocol/finalcontraceptionprotocolsent2.pdf+lactational+am enorrhea+fertilityhl=engl=auct=clnkcd=30) * Supplementing feeds (formula or solids) * Increased use of pacifiers * Feeding on schedule instead of on demand * Increased intervals between feeds (4hrs during day, 6hrs at night) * Waiting until bub is 6mths or older * Reduce time at the breast during a feed (shorter feeds, no comfort sucking) * Reduce total time at the breast per day to 65 min or less (McNeilly AS, Glasier AF, Howie PW, Houston MJ, Cook A,Boyle H. Fertility after childbirth: pregnancy associated with breast feeding. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1983 Aug;19(2):167-73., http://www.medela.com/NewFiles/faq/lam.html) * Reduce night time feeds (Heinig MJ, Nommsen-Rivers LA, Peerson JM, Dewey KG. Factors related to duration of postpartum amenorrhoea among USA women with prolonged lactation. J Biosoc Sci. 1994 Oct;26(4):517-27., http://www.medela.com/NewFiles/faq/lam.html) * Stop co-sleeping, including no naps with your child during the day (Kippley, Sheila. Breastfeeding and Natural Child Spacing: How Ecological Breastfeeding Spaces Babies. Cincinnati: Couple to Couple League International, 1999, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactational_Amenorrhea_Method) * Be separated from your child for more than 3 hours a day (Kippley, Sheila. Breastfeeding and Natural Child Spacing: How Ecological Breastfeeding Spaces Babies. Cincinnati: Couple to Couple League International, 1999, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactational_Amenorrhea_Method) And what if you're a co-sleeping, fully BFing, no pacifier, BF on demand mumma? How long will it be until your period returns? Average return of menses for women following all [...] criteria is 14 months, with some reports as soon as 2 months and others as late as 42 months. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactati...norrhea_Method Of course, once your period does return, continuing breastfeeding can still affect your chances of conception. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=7761906) Reference pages - very eclectic mix some ok, some good http://www.medela.com/NewFiles/faq/lam.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactati...norrhea_Method http://www.fhi.org/training/en/modul...references.htm (lots of references for articles on lactational amenorrhea, if you want to do more research) http://www.fhi.org/training/en/modul...getstarted.htm http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:1ilEf4An7dMJ:www.bfmed.org/ace-files/protocol/finalcontraceptionprotocolsent2.pdf+lactational+am enorrhea+fertilityhl=engl=auct=clnkcd=30
