Re: [PD] stand alone applications
This has been discussed here quite a bit before. Short answer: no. Longer answers are in the archive if you search for them. http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/ d. Miguel Cardoso wrote: hi list Is it possible to create standalone versions of pure data patches? something like an updated paradiddle for mac and windows, so you can send your audio-applications to people without them having to install pd -- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 28: Change nothing and continue consistently ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] stand alone applications
Search strings: stand alone, executable or pd pluggo d. Derek Holzer wrote: This has been discussed here quite a bit before. Short answer: no. Longer answers are in the archive if you search for them. http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/ d. Miguel Cardoso wrote: hi list Is it possible to create standalone versions of pure data patches? something like an updated paradiddle for mac and windows, so you can send your audio-applications to people without them having to install pd -- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 18: Balance the consistency principle with the inconsistency principle ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] stand alone applications
at least on windows, pd is already a standalone application. you don't need to install it to a predefined location and it has no further dependencies (besides a working operating system). so, you can easily build your own standalone application with your own patches and a .bat-file as a start-script. check netpd for windows as an example 'standalone pd application': http://www.netpd.org/software/compilations/pd-netpd-win32.zip i don't know, how it could be done on osx. on linux it would be possible, but that is not the way how things are done in linux. it would require to include all libraries, which pd is dependent on, into your package. roman On Thu, 2007-05-31 at 09:53 +0200, Derek Holzer wrote: This has been discussed here quite a bit before. Short answer: no. Longer answers are in the archive if you search for them. http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/ d. Miguel Cardoso wrote: hi list Is it possible to create standalone versions of pure data patches? something like an updated paradiddle for mac and windows, so you can send your audio-applications to people without them having to install pd ___ Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] puredata evolution
hi niklas, i'm curious about your implementation: - have you been doing some profiling of the scheduling overhead? - which latency settings have you been using? it would be great to know the worst-case response times of the locking synchronization ... in general, the expressive power of dataflow languages in terms of parallelism is really amazing, however neither pd nor nova are general-purpose programming languages, but low-latency soft-realtime audio programming languages, which makes a usable implementation rather complex ... cheers, tim On Thu, 2007-05-31 at 02:19 +0200, Niklas Klügel wrote: Tim Blechmann wrote: On Wed, 2007-05-30 at 12:13 +0200, Niklas Klügel wrote: I think it depends on the application for the most part, we can't get a generic speedup from using multiple cores (forgive me if wrong) that would apply to every single pd program. but some types of computations such as large ffts can be performed faster when distributed to different cores, in which case, the code for the fft has to be parallelized a priori. Plus, the memory is tricky. You can have a memory access bottleneck, when using a shared memory resource between multiple processors. It's definitely a problem that is worth solving, but I'm not suggesting to do anything about it soon. It sounds like something that would require a complete top-down re-design to be successful. yikes Chuck I once wrote such a toolset that does automatically scale up with multiple threads throughout the whole network. it worked by detecting cycles in the graph and splits of the signals while segmenting the graph in autonomous sequential parts and essentially adding some smart and lightweight locks everyhwere the signals split or merged. it even reassigned threats on the lock-level to balance the workload in the graph and preventing deadlocks. the code is/was around 2.5k lines of c++ code and a bloody mess :) so, i don't know much about the internals of pd but it'd be probably possible. detaching ffts (i.e. canvases with larger blocksizes than 64) should be rather trivial ... distributing a synchronous dsp graph to several threads is not trivial, especially when it comes to a huge number of nodes. for small numbers of nodes the approach of jackdmp, using a dynamic dataflow scheduling, is probably usable, but when it comes to huge dsp graphs, the synchronization overhead is probably to big, so the graph would have to be split to parallel chunks which are then scheduled ... true, i didn't try big graphs, so i can't really say how it would behave. it was more a fun project to see if it was doable. at that time i had the impression that the locking and the re-assignment of threads was quite efficient and done only on demand, if the graph has more sequential parts than the number of created threads ; i am curious how it can be achieved in a lock-free way. about the issues of explicitely threading parts of the graph (that came up in the discussion lateron), i must say i don't get why you would want to do it. seeing how the numbers of cores are about to increase, i'd say that it is contraproductive in relation to the technological development of hardware and the software running on top of it lagging behind as well as the steady implicit maintenance of the software involved. from my point of view a graphical dataflow language has the perfect semantics to express the parallelisms of a program in an intuitive way. therefore i'd say that rather than adding constructs for explicit parallelism to the language that is able to express them anyhow adding constructs for explicit serialization of a process makes more sense. maybe i'm talking nonsense here, please correct me. so long... Niklas ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]ICQ: 96771783 http://tim.klingt.org Every word is like an unnecessary stain on silence and nothingness Samuel Beckett signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] M$ invents the reacTable
Hallo, Kevin McCoy hat gesagt: // Kevin McCoy wrote: Yeah I like the way both Apple and MS are trying to claim the multitouch thing (Microsoft coming in after Apple, as per usual)... who was behind that one gentleman's video where he did the big multitouch demo at some conference? Maybe you're talking about the Multi Touch Console that was shown at the Linux Audio Conference? See http://www.multi-touch.de/ Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] libjack-0.80.0.so.0
I eventually got jack with pd running on my Debian machine. the Jack package installs libjack version 100. I just made a symbolic link in my /usr/lib directory with the command ln -s libjack-0.100.0.so.0.0.23 libjack-0.80.0.so.0 (your specific version may be different) Do you think this was a bad idea? I don't remember whose idea it was first... I'll take the blame if it messes up. Otherwise, someone else gets the credit :) Chuck ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] stand alone applications
Hallo, Derek Holzer hat gesagt: // Derek Holzer wrote: This has been discussed here quite a bit before. Short answer: no. Though I must say: Short answer: Yes. Just make a zip with all your patches and the Pd executable files for your friend's OS and send it to him. Contrary to Max/MSP, Pd is free so there's no urgent need for a special free runtime version of Pd: Pd *is* the runtime, and you can just distribute Pd as you like. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] Announde: DSP02 - Music composition software for children
Start of forwarded message Delivery-date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:20:10 +0200 Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:20:09 +0200 From: asbjorn blokkum flo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Anders Vinjar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: DSP NOTAM Nedre gate 5 N-0551 Oslo Norway *FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE * Contact Information: Company name: NOTAM email address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] NOTAM Web site address: http://www.notam02.no/notam02/english.html DSP2 Web site address: http://www.notam02.no/notam02/prod-prg-dsp02-e.html Telephone: (+47) 22 35 80 60 Fax: (+47) 22 35 80 61 *NOTAM releases DSP02 Version 1.1.1 free music composition software for children. * Oslo, Norway May 30, 2007. NOTAM, the Norwegian production centre for work with sound, has released a new version (1.1.1) of NOTAMs DSP02 software for Mac OSX, Windows, Linux and web-based use. The new version of DSP02 brings performance improvements and user interaction enhancements as well as support for Intel Mac. For educators, composers, musicians, and others working with children, who are looking for a creative, student-oriented method for teaching sound creation and manipulation. DSP02 delivers a simple, user-friendly way of mixing, editing, and sound processing in one package. *DSP2 as a tool for learning* DSP02 is designed for a non-linear approach to composition, and allows students to develop compositions free from musical conventions and stylistic blueprints. The creative impulse is at the center of the tools, which through easy interactivity allows free, non-restricted exploration of what the software tools can be used for. DSP02 is published on a website which also contains a large number of help- and tutorial texts, as well as musical examples and tasks that can be developed by using the provided samples library. This makes the website into a comprehensive educational tool for composition with electronic sound. /DSP02 is particularly well suited for young composers from 5th to 10th grade. / DSP02 includes a large number of synthesis and sound processing tools for various types of sound design, traditional and non-traditional, such as sound editor, mixer, FM synthesis, additive synthesis, time stretch, 4 types of filters, chorus/vibrato/flanger, ring modulation, harmonizer, reverb, delay, formant synthesis, guitar string synthesis, spectral sieve, spectrum shift, and different algorithms for machine composition. *DSP02 is free, and can be downloaded for OSX, Windows and Linux from: *http://www.notam02.no/DSP02/en/index.php?page=317 DSP02 - for educators, composers, musicians, and others working with children, looking for an easy way to learn sound creation and manipulation, DSP2 delivers a simple and user friendly way of working with sound synthesis, sound manipulation and mixing in one package. *For more information, visit their web site at: *http://www.notam02.no/notam02/prod-prg-dsp02-e.html End of forwarded message ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] Announce: MAMMUT v.0.59
Start of forwarded message Delivery-date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:20:01 +0200 Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:20:00 +0200 From: asbjorn blokkum flo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Anders Vinjar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: mammut NOTAM Nedre gate 5 N-0551 Oslo Norway *FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE* Contact Information: Company name: NOTAM email address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] NOTAM Web site address: http://www.notam02.no/notam02/english.html Mammut Web site address: http://www.notam02.no/notam02/prod-prg-mammut-e.html Telephone: (+47) 22 35 80 60 Fax: (+47) 22 35 80 61 *NOTAM releases Mammut version 0.59 free sound processing software. * Oslo, Norway May 30, 2007. NOTAM, the Norwegian production centre for work with sound, has released a new version (0.59) of NOTAMs Mammut software for Mac OSX, Windows and Linux. The new version of this unique frequency-based sound processing software brings performance improvements and major user interaction enhancements. For composers, sound designers, experimental musicians or producers looking for a new approach to sound creation and manipulation, Mammut delivers a unique way of working with sound in the frequency domain. Mammut will do a frequency analysis of your sound in one single gigantic FFT analysis (no windows). These spectral data, where the development in time is incorporated in mysterious ways, may then be transformed by different algorithms. An interesting aspect of Mammut is its completely non-intuitive sound transformation approach. Different transforms can be applied to the spectrum, such as nonlinear stretching, spectrum shift, convolution, filtering and permutation. Mammut is a somewhat unpredictable program, and the user must get used to the idea of loosing control over the time axis. The sonic result is often surprising. However, Mammut is also ideal for standard operations like filtering, spectrum shift and convolution. The no-window approach gives ultimate sound quality. *Mammut version 0.59 features: * - A new approach to sound creation and manipulation in the frequency domain - Unique single gigantic FFT analysis method. - Stretch: Non-linear stretching of the frequency axis. - Wobble: Alternately stretch and contract the frequency axis - Multiply phase: Multiply all phases with the value you specify - Derivate amp: Replaces the amplitude spectrum with its derivative (slope). - Filter: Optimal bandstop filter. The ultimate in cut-off performance! - Invert: Splits the spectrum into regions with specified size, and turn backward. - Threshold: Removes all partials below a given amplitude threshold. - Spectrum Shift: Optimal spectrum shift, with no window artifacts. - Block Swap: Selects randomly positioned regions of the spectrum, and interchange. - Mirror: Reflects the whole spectrum around the frequency you specify. *For more information, visit their web site at: *http://www.notam02.no/notam02/prod-prg-mammut-e.html *Mammut is free, and can be downloaded from: *OSX: http://www.notam02.no/arkiv/macosx/ Windows: http://www.notam02.no/arkiv/windows/ Linux: http://www.notam02.no/arkiv/src/ Mammut: for composers, sound designers, experimental musicians or producers looking for a new approach to sound creation and manipulation in the frequency domain. End of forwarded message ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] stand alone applications
He actually asked if it could be done without installing PD. So technically, no it's not possible, since the PD executables would need to be distributed with the patch. On top of that, a pdsettings or pdrc file would need to be sent (and installed properly) to use any externals or other path-oriented stuff, if I understand how that's being done these days. The discussion in the archives (at least my part of it) was all about how this standalone business is a relic of commercial software thinking. Let's agree to both be correct ;-) d. Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, Derek Holzer hat gesagt: // Derek Holzer wrote: This has been discussed here quite a bit before. Short answer: no. Though I must say: Short answer: Yes. Just make a zip with all your patches and the Pd executable files for your friend's OS and send it to him. Contrary to Max/MSP, Pd is free so there's no urgent need for a special free runtime version of Pd: Pd *is* the runtime, and you can just distribute Pd as you like. Ciao -- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 102: Just carry on ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] libjack-0.80.0.so.0
Is there some specific reason why a prebuilt PD is distributed linked to such an old JACK? If so you may be better off obtaining the JACK of that version? I definitely had some pre-linked binarys break when I installed a JACK newer than about 100 with binarys built against versions in the '90 s , so you may be in for trouble depending upon what functions get used in the libjack. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Henry Sent: 31 May 2007 00:10 To: pd-list@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] libjack-0.80.0.so.0 I eventually got jack with pd running on my Debian machine. the Jack package installs libjack version 100. I just made a symbolic link in my /usr/lib directory with the command ln -s libjack-0.100.0.so.0.0.23 libjack-0.80.0.so.0 (your specific version may be different) Do you think this was a bad idea? I don't remember whose idea it was first... I'll take the blame if it messes up. Otherwise, someone else gets the credit :) Chuck ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] stand alone applications
Hallo, Derek Holzer hat gesagt: // Derek Holzer wrote: He actually asked if it could be done without installing PD. So technically, no it's not possible, since the PD executables would need to be distributed with the patch. On top of that, a pdsettings or pdrc file would need to be sent (and installed properly) to use any externals or other path-oriented stuff, if I understand how that's being done these days. The discussion in the archives (at least my part of it) was all about how this standalone business is a relic of commercial software thinking. Let's agree to both be correct ;-) Yes, you're correct. ;) (Though: Even with Max-standalones are distributed together with a runtime which in the end is just a stripped down Max. A stripped down Pd would for example be just the stuff in bin, no help, not extras.) Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd and Edirol UA-25
-Original Message- From: Bryan Jurish I also used to get subtle but audible pops every 30 sec or so using jack, and I never figured out why... maybe it's gone now ;-) Interesting, that's kind of like what I was getting, I thought it was due to the Intel soundchip driver not-quite-there problem. priority 89, frames/period 256, rate 48k, periods/buffer=3 I had to do periods/buffer=3 to get anythign to work without constant xrns with this intel. I'm surprised it's needed with the Edirol, or is it somehow to do with PD? Not that I know what 'periods/buffer' actually does... ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] stand alone applications
i don't want to get into relic of commercial software thinking. Im just trying to figure out a way to run puredata on a browser as a internet plugin. (pd-plugin for mac/linux/windows) there's not even a commercial option to do such thing. not being able to find it, ive been thinking of a way to make my patches available without installation problems. just something people who don't care about pd but care about music narratives to go to a website click once and it works. as for live performace/installation software or as a server pd is perfect. you can really create great experiences (such as netpd). thks list :) On May 31, 2007, at 1:45 PM, Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, Derek Holzer hat gesagt: // Derek Holzer wrote: He actually asked if it could be done without installing PD. So technically, no it's not possible, since the PD executables would need to be distributed with the patch. On top of that, a pdsettings or pdrc file would need to be sent (and installed properly) to use any externals or other path-oriented stuff, if I understand how that's being done these days. The discussion in the archives (at least my part of it) was all about how this standalone business is a relic of commercial software thinking. Let's agree to both be correct ;-) Yes, you're correct. ;) (Though: Even with Max-standalones are distributed together with a runtime which in the end is just a stripped down Max. A stripped down Pd would for example be just the stuff in bin, no help, not extras.) Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd and Edirol UA-25
Hallo, Atwood, Robert C hat gesagt: // Atwood, Robert C wrote: priority 89, frames/period 256, rate 48k, periods/buffer=3 I had to do periods/buffer=3 to get anythign to work without constant xrns with this intel. I'm surprised it's needed with the Edirol, or is it somehow to do with PD? Not that I know what 'periods/buffer' actually does... USB cards generally prefer jackd running with 3 periods. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] what distinguishes a numeric symbol as an argument?
Hi list I understand that [symbol 43( is not the same as [43( as it is interpreted as a symbol, not a float. So I can send the message [symbol 43( to a symbol atom, or to any object that works with symbols, and it will be handled just as if it was [symbol dog(, right? However, when this symbol is inserted as an argument into a message, or packed into a list, what is it that distinguishes it from the number 43?? Let's make a practical example. I want to dynamically set the label of a canvas so that it shows a number. Suppose the receive symbol of the canvas is mycanvas_receive. (1) The following doesn't work: [label 43( (*) | [s mycanvas_receive] (2) Nor does this: [43( (or replace this with a number box) | [label $1( (*) | [s mycanvas_receive] (3) Nor this: [symbol 43( | [label $1( (*) | [s mycanvas_receive] (4) While this DOES work [43( (or replace this with a number box) | [makesymbol %d] | [label $1( (*) | [s mycanvas_receive] However, I can't see any difference between the output of the message box (*) in (4) and in (1-3). If I connect that message box to a [print] in any of the four examples above, the output is always label 43. It seems that the message that is generated in example 4 is intrinsically but invisibly different from the previous 3 examples. I may deduce that each argument of a message has an associated type that somewhat depends on its history and cannot always be seen... which I don't like but may be an explanation. However, this does not explain the following: * Isn't the output of [makefilename] in example (4) just the same as [symbol 43( of example 3?? Then why doesn't example 3 work as well??? Also, consider this: (5) [label 43( | [unpack s f] and this (6) [symbol 43( | [label $1( (**) | [unpack s f] In example (5), the second outlet of unpack outputs float 43, which is (somewhat) coherent with the fact that example (1) didn't succeed to set the canvas label However, in example (6) unpack gives the error unpack: type mismatch... so I guess that the $1 (i.e. the 43) in (**) is seen as a symbol, not a float... but then, again: why didn't example (3) set the canvas label??? Anybody can help me to understand the underlying logic? Oh shit!!! Now I see that the following: [symbol 43( | [print] just outputs symbol while [43( | [makesymbol %d] | [print] outputs symbol 43 as expected isn't it weird?? Well... again, if anyone can help me to undertsand this, I'll be grateful Thank you m. -- Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: Vacanza in Grecia: 7 giorni con trattamento all inclusive in albergo 4 stelle a soli 479 Euro Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=6607d=31-5 ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] pix_record frames per second and again cpu-performance
hello list two questions about pix_record: i render out some movieclips with pix_record. the Gem-render is 15 frames per second, but when i play it with mplayer it says it plays 20 frames per second. I have to force mplayer to play it 15 frames per second. can i give pix_record an argument that it should only record 15 fps? or is it just an mplayer affair? second question: i want to record different geos, so i have to pix_snap every frame and then go into pix_record. i think pix_snap is very cpu intensive, sometimes pd crashes. Is there another solution to record the Gemwindow that do not cost that much cpu power? thanx moritz ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] how to modify path in open message
Hello, I have made the script for recording wave files using 16 channels. I am using writesf~ with the message open /Users/tania/Desktop/ch1.wav My question is that can there be a quick way of just changing one message box so that If I change the destination directory for files, it can be changed for all. Or is there a way of seperating the destination file path and file name into two seperate blocks and combining them later in open message block So that by just sending a bang, I will get the the changes made in all blocks regards, tania ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] stand alone applications
Hallo, Miguel Cardoso hat gesagt: // Miguel Cardoso wrote: i don't want to get into relic of commercial software thinking. Im just trying to figure out a way to run puredata on a browser as a internet plugin. Why didn't you say so? ;) There are some projects regarding Pd as a browser plugin. This is what Google turned up: http://www.iua.upf.edu/~malonso/pdplugin/ http://www.elec.qmul.ac.uk/dafx03/proceedings/pdfs/dafx66.pdf Beware: These are not really useful for distributing general purpose patches. For that, you need to use a real Pd executable, either use an installed one or include a stripped down one with your patches for Linux, OS-X and/or Windows, like Max/MSP basically does. Which gives me an idea: Maybe we should make a minimal Pd distribution, pd-compressed as the opposite of pd-extended, for the major operating systems? Just a the bin-directory of a static build of Pd, nothing else. Add a .bat or .sh file that starts this Pd and loads MAIN.pd in the top dir: bin: pd(.exe) pd-gui(.exe) pd.tk lib: ... MAIN.pd RUN.[sh|bat] Maybe also include expr. Though, as Windows lacks so many libraries, some more stuff would need to be included. I made such a standalone for Windows and Linux(not static) and put it to http://footils.org/pkg/pd-app.zip, if you want to try. It's down to 1.9MB, and was tested on Linux with Wine. Just run RUN.bat on Linux or RUN.sh on Linux. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] what distinguishes a numeric symbol as an argument?
Hallo, Matteo Sisti Sette hat gesagt: // Matteo Sisti Sette wrote: Anybody can help me to understand the underlying logic? First you need to understand the basic role of selectors in Pd's message system: http://puredata.org/dev/PdMessages Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] how to modify path in open message
On Thu, 2007-05-31 at 19:17 +0200, tania habib wrote: Hello, I have made the script for recording wave files using 16 channels. I am using writesf~ with the message open /Users/tania/Desktop/ch1.wav My question is that can there be a quick way of just changing one message box so that If I change the destination directory for files, it can be changed for all. check the help-file for [makefilename]. with [makefilename] you can merge two symbol messages (in your case path and filename) to one single symbol message, that can be sent over a [open $1( message to [writesf~]. maybe you are also interested in [openpanel]/[savepanel]. when banged, they open a filebrowser and output the filename (with absolute path) as a symbol message. roman ___ Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] how to modify path in open message
Hallo, tania habib hat gesagt: // tania habib wrote: Or is there a way of seperating the destination file path and file name into two seperate blocks and combining them later in open message block Yes. Assuming your directory and filename come in a list for example generated with [pack s s]. Then If you're using pd-0.40 and up you can just use a message box: [open $1/$2( If you're still on an older version of Pd, you can use [makefilename] in two steps as shown in attached patch (or the help file) Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ double-makefilename.pd Description: application/puredata ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Announde: DSP02 - Music composition software for children
Wow this program is pretty awesome! I'll have to show it to my little cousins. It's pretty fun for grown ups too! I like the concept of editing and then flash-rendering sound objects to arrange in a multi track graphical sequencer. Very good interface job! ~Kyle On 31 May 2007 12:42:18 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Start of forwarded message Delivery-date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:20:10 +0200 Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:20:09 +0200 From: asbjorn blokkum flo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Anders Vinjar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: DSP NOTAM Nedre gate 5 N-0551 Oslo Norway FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact Information: Company name: NOTAM email address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] NOTAM Web site address: http://www.notam02.no/notam02/english.html DSP2 Web site address: http://www.notam02.no/notam02/prod-prg-dsp02-e.html Telephone: (+47) 22 35 80 60 Fax: (+47) 22 35 80 61 NOTAM releases DSP02 Version 1.1.1 free music composition software for children. Oslo, Norway May 30, 2007. NOTAM, the Norwegian production centre for work with sound, has released a new version (1.1.1) of NOTAMs DSP02 software for Mac OSX, Windows, Linux and web-based use. The new version of DSP02 brings performance improvements and user interaction enhancements as well as support for Intel Mac. For educators, composers, musicians, and others working with children, who are looking for a creative, student-oriented method for teaching sound creation and manipulation. DSP02 delivers a simple, user-friendly way of mixing, editing, and sound processing in one package. DSP2 as a tool for learning DSP02 is designed for a non-linear approach to composition, and allows students to develop compositions free from musical conventions and stylistic blueprints. The creative impulse is at the center of the tools, which through easy interactivity allows free, non-restricted exploration of what the software tools can be used for. DSP02 is published on a website which also contains a large number of help- and tutorial texts, as well as musical examples and tasks that can be developed by using the provided samples library. This makes the website into a comprehensive educational tool for composition with electronic sound. DSP02 is particularly well suited for young composers from 5th to 10th grade. DSP02 includes a large number of synthesis and sound processing tools for various types of sound design, traditional and non-traditional, such as sound editor, mixer, FM synthesis, additive synthesis, time stretch, 4 types of filters, chorus/vibrato/flanger, ring modulation, harmonizer, reverb, delay, formant synthesis, guitar string synthesis, spectral sieve, spectrum shift, and different algorithms for machine composition. DSP02 is free, and can be downloaded for OSX, Windows and Linux from: http://www.notam02.no/DSP02/en/index.php?page=317 DSP02 - for educators, composers, musicians, and others working with children, looking for an easy way to learn sound creation and manipulation, DSP2 delivers a simple and user friendly way of working with sound synthesis, sound manipulation and mixing in one package. For more information, visit their web site at: http://www.notam02.no/notam02/prod-prg-dsp02-e.html End of forwarded message ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- - - - -- http://perhapsidid.wordpress.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] stand alone applications
Hi Frank! //standalone: your bat file solves the issue on pc... now I just need to figure it out for mac... does anyone know how to force pd to open a file automatically? //plugin http://www.iua.upf.edu/~malonso/pdplugin/ I had seen that one before, but it doesn't seem to work... on windows it installs de plugin, but when I try the test examples they don't work. anyone on the pdlist has used them? is the plugin still being developed? From the info you sent me it seems that pdplugin is just a javascript plugin to connect to pd server, rather than having pd running on the client-side. thanks for all the help :) m On May 31, 2007, at 6:28 PM, Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, Miguel Cardoso hat gesagt: // Miguel Cardoso wrote: i don't want to get into relic of commercial software thinking. Im just trying to figure out a way to run puredata on a browser as a internet plugin. Why didn't you say so? ;) There are some projects regarding Pd as a browser plugin. This is what Google turned up: http://www.elec.qmul.ac.uk/dafx03/proceedings/pdfs/dafx66.pdf Beware: These are not really useful for distributing general purpose patches. For that, you need to use a real Pd executable, either use an installed one or include a stripped down one with your patches for Linux, OS-X and/or Windows, like Max/MSP basically does. Which gives me an idea: Maybe we should make a minimal Pd distribution, pd-compressed as the opposite of pd-extended, for the major operating systems? Just a the bin-directory of a static build of Pd, nothing else. Add a .bat or .sh file that starts this Pd and loads MAIN.pd in the top dir: bin: pd(.exe) pd-gui(.exe) pd.tk lib: ... MAIN.pd RUN.[sh|bat] Maybe also include expr. Though, as Windows lacks so many libraries, some more stuff would need to be included. I made such a standalone for Windows and Linux(not static) and put it to http://footils.org/pkg/pd-app.zip, if you want to try. It's down to 1.9MB, and was tested on Linux with Wine. Just run RUN.bat on Linux or RUN.sh on Linux. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] puredata evolution
I once wrote such a toolset that does automatically scale up with multiple threads throughout the whole network. it worked by detecting cycles in the graph and splits of the signals while segmenting the graph in autonomous sequential parts and essentially adding some smart and lightweight locks everyhwere the signals split or merged. it even reassigned threats on the lock-level to balance the workload in the graph and preventing deadlocks. the code is/was around 2.5k lines of c++ code and a bloody mess :) so, i don't know much about the internals of pd but it'd be probably possible. Could I see your code? I am not so literate with threading or scheduling, so I would like to see if I can read it and follow along with you. detaching ffts (i.e. canvases with larger blocksizes than 64) should be rather trivial ... distributing a synchronous dsp graph to several threads is not trivial, especially when it comes to a huge number of nodes. for small numbers of nodes the approach of jackdmp, using a dynamic dataflow scheduling, is probably usable, but when it comes to huge dsp graphs, the synchronization overhead is probably to big, so the graph would have to be split to parallel chunks which are then scheduled ... This approach makes a lot of sense. A lot of parts of the dsp graph are written as parallel subroutines as shown. true, i didn't try big graphs, so i can't really say how it would behave. it was more a fun project to see if it was doable. at that time i had the impression that the locking and the re-assignment of threads was quite efficient and done only on demand, if the graph has more sequential parts than the number of created threads ; i am curious how it can be achieved in a lock-free way. Well, some kinds of serial processing could be made parallel What comes to mind is a topic in cognitive psychology. Early models assumed that processing was sequential, discrete, and serial. A hypothetical model of word recognition might include stages such as perception, encoding, and identification. But in fact, the processes proceed continuously and in parallel using partial information from preceding and following stages. Or another analogy, when playing arpeggios on guitar, you don't have to put all of your left fingers in place before playing the notes with the right hand. You only have to put on finger down at a time, before playing the corresponding string. Timing without locks would be very tricky, and would be analogous to continuous processes. You could run into problems where not enough information is present for the next stage to run. Plus, there are some types of processing (like fft's) that rely on having the whole block in order to run. about the issues of explicitely threading parts of the graph (that came up in the discussion lateron), i must say i don't get why you would want to do it. seeing how the numbers of cores are about to increase, i'd say that it is contraproductive in relation to the technological development of hardware and the software running on top of it lagging behind as well as the steady implicit maintenance of the software involved. from my point of view a graphical dataflow language has the perfect semantics to express the parallelisms of a program in an intuitive way. therefore i'd say that rather than adding constructs for explicit parallelism to the language that is able to express them anyhow adding constructs for explicit serialization of a process makes more sense. maybe i'm talking nonsense here, please correct me. I thought that pdsend and pdrecieve could be used to run pd in a separate thread (a sub-process) and send data in between. What Mathieu suggested is a bit simpler, but is really the same, functionally. Later, Chuck so long... Niklas ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] what distinguishes a numeric symbol as an argument?
Hallo, Matteo Sisti Sette hat gesagt: // Matteo Sisti Sette wrote: However, I can't see any difference between the output of the message box (*) in (4) and in (1-3). If I connect that message box to a [print] in any of the four examples above, the output is always label 43. [print] is very bad for showing these kinds of things. However, this does not explain the following: * Isn't the output of [makefilename] in example (4) just the same as [symbol 43( of example 3?? It isn't: [makefilename] always generates real symbols and it's the only (usual) way to really numeric symbols. There was a thread on pd-dev about this some time ago. The 43 in a message box [symbol 43( is not a real numeric symbol. Actually symbol 43 is kind of an illegal message in Pd, as a proper symbol-message is built from the word symbol and another word, not a number. So to build a proper word 43 first you need to generate a 43-symbol using [makefilename]. Then why doesn't example 3 work as well??? Also, consider this: (5) [label 43( | [unpack s f] and this (6) [symbol 43( | [label $1( (**) | [unpack s f] In example (5), the second outlet of unpack outputs float 43, which is (somewhat) coherent with the fact that example (1) didn't succeed to set the canvas label However, in example (6) unpack gives the error unpack: type mismatch... so I guess that the $1 (i.e. the 43) in (**) is seen as a symbol, not a float... It's neither a symbol nor a float: To be a float, it would need to have a selector of float or no selector at all, to be a symbol, the data part of the message should be a symbol, but it is a float (43) so your message is not valid. Oh shit!!! Now I see that the following: [symbol 43( | [print] just outputs symbol Yes, [print] gets confused about the invalid message. while [43( | [makesymbol %d] | [print] outputs symbol 43 as expected However this 43 now is indeed a symbol and you cannot input it into a numberbox anymore. Try this: [43( | [makefilename %d] | [$1( | [+ 10] You get the error message: error: +: no method for '43' which indicates, that 43 now is a symbol-selector! (Let that sink for a while ...) Numeric symbol selectors aren't used by many objects. [select] can handle them, you can label GUI elements with them, you can use them as targets for [send] through the second inlet, but you cannot build a receiver for them: [r 43] is not valid, as in this case 43 is still a float. isn't it weird?? Ah, the fun of Pd's message system! But once you get to grips with it you may see, that it's limited, but actually rather consistent. It'd recommend an afternoon of list-archive reading, as this confuses many people. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] stand alone applications
Hallo, Miguel Cardoso hat gesagt: // Miguel Cardoso wrote: //standalone: your bat file solves the issue on pc... now I just need to figure it out for mac... does anyone know how to force pd to open a file automatically? I guess, as on Linux, which is in RUN.sh: You just give the names of the files to open on the command line. There even is a special option, -open but I never use it, I just type pd somefile.pd Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] stand alone applications
Quoting Miguel Cardoso [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Frank! http://www.iua.upf.edu/~malonso/pdplugin/ I had seen that one before, but it doesn't seem to work... on windows it installs de plugin, but when I try the test examples they don't work. anyone on the pdlist has used them? is the plugin still being developed? From the info you sent me it seems that pdplugin is just a javascript plugin to connect to pd server, rather than having pd running on the client-side. no its not. the barcelona plugin is basicaly stripped down pd compiled into a plugin (so it is exactly what you asked for) there are 2 other approaches: - controlling a pd server via a plugin (javascript, java,) or directly via xml-rpc; there are several sites out there that use this (afaik gollum.artefacte has a pd/pdp/pidip streaming server; pd-radio was of the second type) - controlling a full-fledged local installation of pd via a plugin (iem's iARS took that road) mfg.asdr IOhannes ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] pix_record frames per second and again cpu-performance
Quoting moritz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: hello list two questions about pix_record: i render out some movieclips with pix_record. the Gem-render is 15 frames per second, but when i play it with mplayer it says it plays 20 frames per second. I have to force mplayer to play it 15 frames per second. can i give pix_record an argument that it should only record 15 fps? or is it just an mplayer affair? no it is a Gem bug which writes movies with a hardcoded framerate of 20. until this is fixed, you will have to convert the missinformed movie into a well-informed one manually. (since this shouldn't be a problem, fixing it is not very high on the todo list) second question: i want to record different geos, so i have to pix_snap every frame and then go into pix_record. i think pix_snap is very cpu intensive, sometimes pd crashes. Is there another solution to record the Gemwindow that do not cost that much cpu power? no, that's the joys of openGL-consumer cards and the AGP bus (which are optimized to generate graphics but not to read the data from the gfx-card) using a PCI-express card might help. mfga.sdr IOhannes ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] puredata evolution
Niklas Klügel wrote: about the issues of explicitely threading parts of the graph (that came up in the discussion lateron), i must say i don't get why you would want to do it. Because it's cheaper to implement. If well done, it's also an intermediate step towards automatic threading. It's important to cut hard goals into easier goals, because it reduces required investment and gives quicker returns. Also, I wouldn't trust automatic threading to make use of the CPUs in the best possible way all of the time, *especially* for real-time. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] pdplugin on a browser
Thanks IOhannes So has anyone developed pd-plugin? it seems it only works on windows is there anyone else who developed other versions available of such plugin ? :D On May 31, 2007, at 7:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Miguel Cardoso [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Frank! http://www.iua.upf.edu/~malonso/pdplugin/ I had seen that one before, but it doesn't seem to work... on windows it installs de plugin, but when I try the test examples they don't work. anyone on the pdlist has used them? is the plugin still being developed? From the info you sent me it seems that pdplugin is just a javascript plugin to connect to pd server, rather than having pd running on the client-side. no its not. the barcelona plugin is basicaly stripped down pd compiled into a plugin (so it is exactly what you asked for) there are 2 other approaches: - controlling a pd server via a plugin (javascript, java,) or directly via xml-rpc; there are several sites out there that use this (afaik gollum.artefacte has a pd/pdp/pidip streaming server; pd-radio was of the second type) - controlling a full-fledged local installation of pd via a plugin (iem's iARS took that road) mfg.asdr IOhannes ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] M$ invents the reacTable
I think that kind of technologie offer a type of interaction, inherent to work pd: to connect, to drag, to move with fingers. An [objent] become in a pseudo-phisical object represented front eyes, in interaction with a sensible environment. Reactable is a simply experiment in that way Is easy to see that in next future, the artist, and researchers, will use that kind of let think with your hands 2007/5/31, Spencer Russell [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Really, it seems to me like the true father of Surface is Jeff Han's amazing multitouch surface: http://www.fastcompany.com/video/player.html?bctid=769654555 Also check out his talk at TED from a couple years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKh1Rv0PlOQ On 5/30/07, Cesare Marilungo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matteo Sisti Sette wrote: Though I'm a big fan of Reactable, and quite not a fan of Microsoft, and though I do recognize the similarities, I don't think the creators of Reactable invented computer vision, nor the idea of a touch display. I know. I know. I was just making a joke of how most people will believe they (M$) invented it. c. -- Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: Problemi di Liquidità? Con Logos Finanziaria 30.000 € in 24 ore a dipendenti e lavoratori autonomi con rimborsi fino a 120 mesi, clicca qui * Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=2911d=30-5 ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- http://www.cesaremarilungo.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] what distinguishes a numeric symbol as an argument?
Thanks a lot Frank, now I see it all quite clearly. I always thought that the two following conjectures were true: conjecture 1 - any given message output by any PD object can always be reproduced by writing it down literally in a message box conjecture 2 - a PD message is simply a human-readable string that you can always see by for example [print]ing it, or prepending a set and viewing it in a message box, and two messages that appear identical are identical. Now I see both conjectures are wrong (kinda disappointed since I loved them) but once I assume that, and thank to your explanation, everything is clear and coherent. A desired message can always be generated using a makefilename or something, and the difference between different cases can be detected - though all this in a less immediate way than I thought. Now that I think about it, a proper escaping mechanism for writing literals and spelling messages could allow both conjectures to become true without touching the message mechanism: an escape character such as § or whatever may force a number to be interpreted as a numeric symbol (or numeric symbol-selector). For example: [§123( [list 1 3 §123 foo bar( [symbol §123( Also, the [print] object may print out numeric symbols with the escape character Also, when dynamically setting (or updating) the content of a message box, the escape character may show up. Wouldn't it be desirable? What would the drawbacks be? Thanks again m. -- Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: Dvd Verbatim 16x da 0, 32 - Masterizzatore Pioneer112d 29,90 - Cdr Memorex da 0, 16 - Stampa Foto a 0,06 con 25 foto gratis. Solo su atomicshop.it Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=6576d=31-5 ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] pix_record frames per second and again cpu-performance
On Thu, 2007-05-31 at 20:41 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting moritz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: hello list two questions about pix_record: i render out some movieclips with pix_record. the Gem-render is 15 frames per second, but when i play it with mplayer it says it plays 20 frames per second. I have to force mplayer to play it 15 frames per second. can i give pix_record an argument that it should only record 15 fps? or is it just an mplayer affair? no it is a Gem bug which writes movies with a hardcoded framerate of 20. until this is fixed, you will have to convert the missinformed movie into a well-informed one manually. (since this shouldn't be a problem, fixing it is not very high on the todo list) ciao momo mencoder -ovc copy -oac copy -ofps desired_framerate -of lavf -lavfopts format=mov,i_certify_that_my_video_stream_does_not_use_b_frames -o output.mov input.mov might fix your problem (might!) roman ___ Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] pdplugin on a browser
Miguel Cardoso wrote: Thanks IOhannes So has anyone developed pd-plugin? it seems it only works on windows is there anyone else who developed other versions available of such plugin ? 1. yes, at least 2 parties have developped a pd-plugin (music technology group/barcelona; iem/graz); but i have already said so in my previous email. 2. on which grounds do you base your claim, that any of these plugins only work on windows? at least using the iARS plugin i have definitely done Gem-rendering within the browser window... 3. you do mean, another plugin or another version of the existing plugins? what are you looking for? which functionality is missing? mfga.sdr IOhannes ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] py/pyext missing in pd-extended
The Pd-extended release just includes THomas's binaries for all the flext stuff. It would definitely be nicer if that was all built from source and included. Since you'll be working on a lot of GUI stuff, I'd be very interested to hear how the new GUI stuff works out in Pd-extended. .hc On May 31, 2007, at 4:23 PM, B. Bogart wrote: Hey all, So I'm starting work on pixelTANGO again and need to get things working in pd-extended. Has there been any changes in this dialogue since I've been out of the loop? Thomas, if you could provide a simple normal makefile for all platforms for flext and flext externals then I can see if I can figure out how to integrate that into the PD extended (pixelTANGO) makefile (s). I'm not gcc expert, so a set of sample makefiles would be ideal. If anyone else has started the work please drop me a line so we can coordinate. Thanks all, B. Bogart Thomas Grill wrote: Hi all, of course you could also try to support thomas's build system ... but it seems, there's no one, who's interested in doing the work... compiling flext and flext-based externals is pretty straightforward. One could just ignore the flext build system, building flext as a shared or static library (with the first option preferred), and based on that compile the externals. For preprocessor definitions just FLEXT_SYS=2 and FLEXT_SHARED (in the case of a shared library) have to be defined, although some more are optional. greetings, Thomas As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and this we should do freely and generously. - Benjamin Franklin ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] libjack-0.80.0.so.0
Pd-extended is linked with which ever version of jack that distro/ version comes with. Use the build that's closest to your machine for best results. .hc On May 31, 2007, at 8:42 AM, Atwood, Robert C wrote: Is there some specific reason why a prebuilt PD is distributed linked to such an old JACK? If so you may be better off obtaining the JACK of that version? I definitely had some pre-linked binarys break when I installed a JACK newer than about 100 with binarys built against versions in the '90 s , so you may be in for trouble depending upon what functions get used in the libjack. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Henry Sent: 31 May 2007 00:10 To: pd-list@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] libjack-0.80.0.so.0 I eventually got jack with pd running on my Debian machine. the Jack package installs libjack version 100. I just made a symbolic link in my /usr/lib directory with the command ln -s libjack-0.100.0.so.0.0.23 libjack-0.80.0.so.0 (your specific version may be different) Do you think this was a bad idea? I don't remember whose idea it was first... I'll take the blame if it messes up. Otherwise, someone else gets the credit :) Chuck ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list ¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido! ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] what distinguishes a numeric symbol as an argument?
Hallo, Matteo Sisti Sette hat gesagt: // Matteo Sisti Sette wrote: I always thought that the two following conjectures were true: conjecture 1 - any given message output by any PD object can always be reproduced by writing it down literally in a message box Pd's patch format doesn't know about numeric symbols: Every number written in any object or message of a patch is just that: a number. conjecture 2 - a PD message is simply a human-readable string that you can always see by for example [print]ing it, or prepending a set and viewing it in a message box, and two messages that appear identical are identical. Yes, this conjecture fails for some kinds of Pd messages. One is the symbol-float: it's not possible to see the difference to a float-float. Also pointers, which are in Pd for ages (since 1996 or so), are non-printable in full: You can print their data, but not the pointer itself. Even if two pointers share the same data, they don't need to be the same pointers. Now I see both conjectures are wrong (kinda disappointed since I loved them) but once I assume that, and thank to your explanation, everything is clear and coherent. A desired message can always be generated using a makefilename or something, and the difference between different cases can be detected - though all this in a less immediate way than I thought. Acutally except for numeric symbols and for the whitespace symbols [keyname] sometime generates one doesn't meet strange symbols a lot in real life, so it's not a real issue in practice. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] stand alone applications
Actually, I am just wrapping up support for embedding the preferences file (org.puredata.pd.plist) into the Pd.app. Then you can modify the icon, etc. and embed your patch. Then double-clicking that app will launch Pd and your settings form that file, which could include loading an embedded patch. Hopefully it'll be in the auto-build tomorrow. .hc On May 31, 2007, at 5:06 AM, Roman Haefeli wrote: at least on windows, pd is already a standalone application. you don't need to install it to a predefined location and it has no further dependencies (besides a working operating system). so, you can easily build your own standalone application with your own patches and a .bat-file as a start-script. check netpd for windows as an example 'standalone pd application': http://www.netpd.org/software/compilations/pd-netpd-win32.zip i don't know, how it could be done on osx. on linux it would be possible, but that is not the way how things are done in linux. it would require to include all libraries, which pd is dependent on, into your package. roman On Thu, 2007-05-31 at 09:53 +0200, Derek Holzer wrote: This has been discussed here quite a bit before. Short answer: no. Longer answers are in the archive if you search for them. http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/ d. Miguel Cardoso wrote: hi list Is it possible to create standalone versions of pure data patches? something like an updated paradiddle for mac and windows, so you can send your audio-applications to people without them having to install pd ___ Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] pdplugin on a browser
Hello IOhannes i tried to use pd-plugin from barcelona music technology group. on macintel I wasn't able to install the plugin. on pc i installed the plugin, but the test files they provide on their website don't work. am i missing something? also tried to find the iars plugin, but couldn't find it. not available? http://iem1.iaem.at/doku/iARS/ resuming... i need some help finding the files and documentation to try this out :) thanks for the help m On May 31, 2007, at 10:04 PM, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote: Miguel Cardoso wrote: Thanks IOhannes So has anyone developed pd-plugin? it seems it only works on windows is there anyone else who developed other versions available of such plugin ? 1. yes, at least 2 parties have developped a pd-plugin (music technology group/barcelona; iem/graz); but i have already said so in my previous email. 2. on which grounds do you base your claim, that any of these plugins only work on windows? at least using the iARS plugin i have definitely done Gem-rendering within the browser window... 3. you do mean, another plugin or another version of the existing plugins? what are you looking for? which functionality is missing? mfga.sdr IOhannes ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] puredata evolution
Because it's cheaper to implement. If well done, it's also an intermediate step towards automatic threading. It's important to cut hard goals into easier goals, because it reduces required investment and gives quicker returns. I think that's a very good point. It could also lead to some new insights into the problem as a whole, during testing. Top-down design is usually difficult because of misc problems you will find later on. I am curious... what kind of changes do you think would have to be made to allow this function? I can imagine this explicit threading as a new type of sub-patch, which could be invoked in the same manner as [pd new_subpatch]. You could let the original process handle all the memory allocation, and switch on the new thread once its dependencies are satisfied. Also, I wouldn't trust automatic threading to make use of the CPUs in the best possible way all of the time, *especially* for real-time. I would have to say... there's just no replacement for actually measuring the performance and making adjustments. but you'll always be limited by the rate you can make the modifications yourself. So, some kind of algorithm could be used to optimize performance, say, genetic algorithm style, or heuristic search. So that you would create a patch which is intended to be used in a parallel arch and then you just sit back and let the computer try to optimize it by actually computing a bunch of cycles and taking measurements. Given that it's just a far off idea (to me), it's too soon to really discuss optimization :) but if the computer were to actually take measurements and choose the best, I would trust the computer to do it faster/better than I could _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] puredata evolution
Tim Blechmann wrote: hi niklas, i'm curious about your implementation: - have you been doing some profiling of the scheduling overhead? - which latency settings have you been using? it would be great to know the worst-case response times of the locking synchronization ... Hey timchuck, as i said i just did it for fun, so i did no profiling after everything looked promising enough to become uninteresting again. i hope to get some time the next week(s) to write the basic working down, the idea behind it isnt really complicated which might imply several inconsistencies. i dont think sharing the code will do any good since it is is a complete mess, but i do think, that i can write it down in a more formal way. this will also allow for a better discussion and analysis. so long... Niklas in general, the expressive power of dataflow languages in terms of parallelism is really amazing, however neither pd nor nova are general-purpose programming languages, but low-latency soft-realtime audio programming languages, which makes a usable implementation rather complex ... cheers, tim On Thu, 2007-05-31 at 02:19 +0200, Niklas Klügel wrote: Tim Blechmann wrote: On Wed, 2007-05-30 at 12:13 +0200, Niklas Klügel wrote: I think it depends on the application for the most part, we can't get a generic speedup from using multiple cores (forgive me if wrong) that would apply to every single pd program. but some types of computations such as large ffts can be performed faster when distributed to different cores, in which case, the code for the fft has to be parallelized a priori. Plus, the memory is tricky. You can have a memory access bottleneck, when using a shared memory resource between multiple processors. It's definitely a problem that is worth solving, but I'm not suggesting to do anything about it soon. It sounds like something that would require a complete top-down re-design to be successful. yikes Chuck I once wrote such a toolset that does automatically scale up with multiple threads throughout the whole network. it worked by detecting cycles in the graph and splits of the signals while segmenting the graph in autonomous sequential parts and essentially adding some smart and lightweight locks everyhwere the signals split or merged. it even reassigned threats on the lock-level to balance the workload in the graph and preventing deadlocks. the code is/was around 2.5k lines of c++ code and a bloody mess :) so, i don't know much about the internals of pd but it'd be probably possible. detaching ffts (i.e. canvases with larger blocksizes than 64) should be rather trivial ... distributing a synchronous dsp graph to several threads is not trivial, especially when it comes to a huge number of nodes. for small numbers of nodes the approach of jackdmp, using a dynamic dataflow scheduling, is probably usable, but when it comes to huge dsp graphs, the synchronization overhead is probably to big, so the graph would have to be split to parallel chunks which are then scheduled ... true, i didn't try big graphs, so i can't really say how it would behave. it was more a fun project to see if it was doable. at that time i had the impression that the locking and the re-assignment of threads was quite efficient and done only on demand, if the graph has more sequential parts than the number of created threads ; i am curious how it can be achieved in a lock-free way. about the issues of explicitely threading parts of the graph (that came up in the discussion lateron), i must say i don't get why you would want to do it. seeing how the numbers of cores are about to increase, i'd say that it is contraproductive in relation to the technological development of hardware and the software running on top of it lagging behind as well as the steady implicit maintenance of the software involved. from my point of view a graphical dataflow language has the perfect semantics to express the parallelisms of a program in an intuitive way. therefore i'd say that rather than adding constructs for explicit parallelism to the language that is able to express them anyhow adding constructs for explicit serialization of a process makes more sense. maybe i'm talking nonsense here, please correct me. so long... Niklas ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]ICQ: 96771783 http://tim.klingt.org Every word is like an unnecessary stain on silence and nothingness Samuel Beckett ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -
Re: [PD] puredata evolution
Mathieu Bouchard wrote: Niklas Klügel wrote: about the issues of explicitely threading parts of the graph (that came up in the discussion lateron), i must say i don't get why you would want to do it. Because it's cheaper to implement. If well done, it's also an intermediate step towards automatic threading. It's important to cut hard goals into easier goals, because it reduces required investment and gives quicker returns. yes, I totally agree but I was curious about the technical aspects and not necessarily about the development process that naturally has to obey these rules. Also, I wouldn't trust automatic threading to make use of the CPUs in the best possible way all of the time, *especially* for real-time. well, afair an algorithm for the optimal solution would be in NP anyway. if a suboptimal solution is enough, i think you can use it in a realtime system very well; ableton live for example scales with multiple cores/cpus. so long... Niklas _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] mMm
mMm looks really cool, I can't wait to try it thanks, ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] PD i education
We are nearing the end of our Music 172 (Computer Music II) class at UCSD. I developed a few new PD patches to cover the main topics in this course (sampling/looping, filters, granular techniques, spectral techniques). The class blog is at http://music.ucsd.edu/~tre/ As far as pros, it is really nice to show DSP algorithms in a graphic programming language, and most common techniques can be explored. Much better than when I used Csound to teach these things. As for the cons, some things are difficult to show the class without resorting to externals (time domain convolution for example) - and more things (or everything) should be sample accurate (like metro, vline and delay). Tom On May 29, 2007, at 3:32 AM, Mikael Fernstrom wrote: I use PD with our MA/MSc students in Interactive Media and (some) in Music Technology here at the University of Limerick. http://www.csis.ul.ie/imedia/ http://www.ccmcm.ie/ http://www.idc.ul.ie/ - Mikael Fernström On 29 May 2007, at 09:39, Eirik Arthur Blekesaune wrote: Can anybody help me point out who uses PD to teach electronic music? .. (Algoritmic) Composistion Synthesis DSP-theory real-time performance What are the pros and cons for using it to teach DSP-theory? Best, Eirik Blekesaune ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list - - - - - tom erbe ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ studio director - computer music ~ ucsd department of music ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] what distinguishes a numeric symbol as an argument?
I've tried to document odd behavior in Pd. Here's my collection: http://pure-data.cvs.sourceforge.net/pure-data/doc/additional/ messageoddness/ .hc On May 31, 2007, at 10:58 AM, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote: Hi list I understand that [symbol 43( is not the same as [43( as it is interpreted as a symbol, not a float. So I can send the message [symbol 43( to a symbol atom, or to any object that works with symbols, and it will be handled just as if it was [symbol dog(, right? However, when this symbol is inserted as an argument into a message, or packed into a list, what is it that distinguishes it from the number 43?? Let's make a practical example. I want to dynamically set the label of a canvas so that it shows a number. Suppose the receive symbol of the canvas is mycanvas_receive. (1) The following doesn't work: [label 43( (*) | [s mycanvas_receive] (2) Nor does this: [43( (or replace this with a number box) | [label $1( (*) | [s mycanvas_receive] (3) Nor this: [symbol 43( | [label $1( (*) | [s mycanvas_receive] (4) While this DOES work [43( (or replace this with a number box) | [makesymbol %d] | [label $1( (*) | [s mycanvas_receive] However, I can't see any difference between the output of the message box (*) in (4) and in (1-3). If I connect that message box to a [print] in any of the four examples above, the output is always label 43. It seems that the message that is generated in example 4 is intrinsically but invisibly different from the previous 3 examples. I may deduce that each argument of a message has an associated type that somewhat depends on its history and cannot always be seen... which I don't like but may be an explanation. However, this does not explain the following: * Isn't the output of [makefilename] in example (4) just the same as [symbol 43( of example 3?? Then why doesn't example 3 work as well??? Also, consider this: (5) [label 43( | [unpack s f] and this (6) [symbol 43( | [label $1( (**) | [unpack s f] In example (5), the second outlet of unpack outputs float 43, which is (somewhat) coherent with the fact that example (1) didn't succeed to set the canvas label However, in example (6) unpack gives the error unpack: type mismatch... so I guess that the $1 (i.e. the 43) in (**) is seen as a symbol, not a float... but then, again: why didn't example (3) set the canvas label??? Anybody can help me to understand the underlying logic? Oh shit!!! Now I see that the following: [symbol 43( | [print] just outputs symbol while [43( | [makesymbol %d] | [print] outputs symbol 43 as expected isn't it weird?? Well... again, if anyone can help me to undertsand this, I'll be grateful Thank you m. -- Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http:// www.email.it/f Sponsor: Vacanza in Grecia: 7 giorni con trattamento all inclusive in albergo 4 stelle a soli 479 Euro Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=6607d=31-5 ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list Terrorism is not an enemy. It cannot be defeated. It's a tactic. It's about as sensible to say we declare war on night attacks and expect we're going to win that war. We're not going to win the war on terrorism.- retired U.S. Army general, William Odom ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] puredata evolution
Just to offer my two cents... The great majority of DSP objects are side-effect-free and thread-safe. In the base Pd distribution, I believe the main ones which are not are delread~/write~ (etc), tabread~/write~ (etc), send~/receive~, throw~/catch~, expr~, and dac~. If these objects were avoided (or threadsafe versions written), then DSP networks could be parallelized at will. Unfortunately, I have no idea what other objects there are (in the many externs and libraries available) that might be thread-unsafe, and what's more, I don't think there's any reliable way to determine that an object is threadsafe. So a parallelized version of Pd would, in practice, occasionally crash mysteriously. Furthermore, as new DSP objects get written new sources of crashes would appear, leaving us in all liklihood in a situation where no version of Pd ever emerged that was entirely free of thread-related crashes. Not a real pretty sight. Another possibility would be to make Pd open up several address spaces and run portions of the patch in then. This was how Max/FTS worked on the ISPW. It wasn't pleasant to use, though; for instance, a table on one processor could easily get out of sync with one of the same name on another. So it's hard to figure out what to do that would really help... cheers Miller On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 06:49:44PM -0500, Charles Henry wrote: Because it's cheaper to implement. If well done, it's also an intermediate step towards automatic threading. It's important to cut hard goals into easier goals, because it reduces required investment and gives quicker returns. I think that's a very good point. It could also lead to some new insights into the problem as a whole, during testing. Top-down design is usually difficult because of misc problems you will find later on. I am curious... what kind of changes do you think would have to be made to allow this function? I can imagine this explicit threading as a new type of sub-patch, which could be invoked in the same manner as [pd new_subpatch]. You could let the original process handle all the memory allocation, and switch on the new thread once its dependencies are satisfied. Also, I wouldn't trust automatic threading to make use of the CPUs in the best possible way all of the time, *especially* for real-time. I would have to say... there's just no replacement for actually measuring the performance and making adjustments. but you'll always be limited by the rate you can make the modifications yourself. So, some kind of algorithm could be used to optimize performance, say, genetic algorithm style, or heuristic search. So that you would create a patch which is intended to be used in a parallel arch and then you just sit back and let the computer try to optimize it by actually computing a bunch of cycles and taking measurements. Given that it's just a far off idea (to me), it's too soon to really discuss optimization :) but if the computer were to actually take measurements and choose the best, I would trust the computer to do it faster/better than I could _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - t?l:+1.514.383.3801, Montr?al QC Canada ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] iARS download?
hello list, I looked at this page, and it looks amazing: http://iem.at/projekte/newmedia/vch_iaem/index_html/view But i couldn't find a link for downloading the iARS plugin. It seems link if I need to have an user account in the site, something I guess only the IEM students have. Am I right? []'s andrei ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] iARS download?
Andrei Thomaz wrote: hello list, I looked at this page, and it looks amazing: http://iem.at/projekte/newmedia/vch_iaem/index_html/view But i couldn't find a link for downloading the iARS plugin. It seems link if I need to have an user account in the site, something I guess only the IEM students have. Am I right? no you are not right, as you don't need a user account to get the plugin. nevertheless, you are right that it is hard to find. the bets thing i can come up with right now is: the iARS plugin is open-source and can be found at http://sf.net/projects/iem ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] pdplugin on a browser
Miguel Cardoso wrote: Hello IOhannes i tried to use pd-plugin from barcelona music technology group. on macintel I wasn't able to install the plugin. so now it becomes interesting: you never mentioned that you are using a macintel platform. at least iARS (and i guess the same is true for the mtg plugin) has been developed before macintel became an interesting platform. i also think that both plugins have reached their final state before macintel became an interesting platform. furthermore they (again: at least iARS) are not actively maintained any more (that's the unfortunate nature of so many universitary projects...) nevertheless, i don't think that there are any reasons why shouldn't run (compile) on macintel. on pc i installed the plugin, but the test files they provide on i guess with pc you mean an intel/amd-equipped computer. is it running linux, os-x or linux? their website don't work. am i missing something? most likely this is an issue of their website. please contact their site-administrator. (but again: as it is likely to be not actively maintained any more, i wish you good luck here) also tried to find the iars plugin, but couldn't find it. not available? http://iem1.iaem.at/doku/iARS/ resuming... i need some help finding the files and documentation to try this out :) as written in my other mail, you can get the iARS plugin from iem's sourceforge project (and there really should be a link to the sources somewhere at the homepage; i'll investigate asap) the mtg plugin is certainly available as source-code too. so all you need is a compiler :-) like mostly, the documentation will be the source code and some (scientific) publications (hopefully available on the net) hope this helps mfg.asdr. IOhannes ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
