Re: [PD] channels and dac

[Atte André Jensen]

Roman Haefeli wrote:


however, you can easily find out, what you need to send by eavesdroping
on the 'pd channel':

[r pd]
|
[print]

then choose the desired settings in the menu and click 'ok'. as soon as
you click ok, you'll see the message (and its format) in the pd-console.


Nice! However I can't seem to get it working. With the above setup I get 
the following printed when I change channels to 10:


print: audio-dialog 0 0 0 0 10 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 44100 50

So I pasted this (without "print: " into a message-box and was expecting 
channels to be set to 10 when I clicked on it. However this doesn't 
happen. Are my expectations wrong or am I missing something?


--
peace, love & harmony
Atte

http://atte.dk   | http://myspace.com/attejensen
http://anagrammer.dk | http://atte.dk/compositions
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Re: [PD] pddp drafts

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

I'll also throw in my attempt to the ring.  Or "pre-ring" perhaps I  
should say. ;)  I like the overall layout of Ben's template 9, but I  
think that the graphical elements are too heavy, drawing too much  
attention.


I took Ben's original template-9 and applied some concepts I've been  
thinking, reading, etc. about.  Bradford Paley has a lot of really  
good things to say about interface design, outlined in this talk:


http://atlas-real.atlas.uiuc.edu:8080/refmov/ncsa/2005-11-04-0800pm.asx

(FYI: you can rip the stream with VLC, then watch it at 1.25X speed,  
since he speaks with a lot of pauses).


- color should be used to make things stand-out
- the eye should be able to naturally skim thru the important parts
- the layout or decoration should not distract or draw attention

Therefore, I made the 'structural' elements in the background as much  
as possible to make the examples and text come forward.  The color on  
the header is to mark the patch as a help/reference patch, versus a  
tutorial or all_about patch.




template-HCS.pd
Description: Binary data


http://eds.org/~hans/template-HCS.png

.hc

On Sep 17, 2007, at 5:02 PM, B. Bogart wrote:


Hi Marius,

Thanks for taking the dive and contributing ideas to the wiki. I'll
"strike" that task from your todo list. How is the wiki template  
going?


I think the discussion about externals was well played out, what have
you ended up deciding? (Will your stylesheet system work on vanilla  
PD 40?)


I am a little confused about the purpose of these templates though,  
as I

thought you had issues with the way the information was structured in
previous templates (and the over use of canvases) and now I see you  
have

even more canvases (cnv)!

Here is some feedback:

* I think the idea of the stylesheet is a good one, especially as it
works for multi-lingual PD. Of course the comments would still be
unilingual without lots of extra effort.

* Where did the three panel layout come from? Having two columns  
for the

content does not really flow well, as they are different sizes. The
extra space for the patch area is nice, but I think most examples need
more vertical space than horizontal, even with template 11 the example
patch is still floating in a lot of empty space. See template 6 for an
example of another alt design that had a bigger patch area.

* The purpose of the canvases in the previous templates is to break up
the content, so that are all the width of the text area or so, when  
they
are too short they no longer serve to break up the content because  
they

need to have more emphasis on the text.

* All in all I don't see any improvement of this design to template  
11,

Would you consider making template 11 stylesheet compatible?

See my other message about GOPing pddplink.

Great to see all this effort! :)

.b.

marius schebella wrote:

hey,
just finished my templates. I did not concentrate so much on  
content and

layout, but on the question how to make different patch layouts with
stylesheets.
I think it is a good idea to make styles as flexible as possible.
https://www.puredata.info/dev/pddp/pddp-drafts
So what you see is one patch where you can switch between different
styles. The style definitions are in a seperate textfile and control
primarily canvases and text (but you can add your own style  
definitions

for guis...). You can set colors, fonts sizes, positions. please play
around and create your own layouts!
The layouts are rewritten everytime you open the patch, so you don't
have to worry to overwrite when you save a patch.
Besides the changes on gui objects, it is also possible to switch
headers and footers (or create additional patches). They are GOPs and
are scripted during runtime (when you open the patch). they can  
change
their appearance dependent on things like language settings,  
operating

system. But GOPS only support gui objects and comments, I really miss
support for images and pddplink. you will need iemlib, zexy, pd 0.39.
I only tested them on mac, so I would like to hear feedback about  
other

os. thnx.
marius.

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Re: [PD] pddp drafts

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

On Sep 16, 2007, at 6:10 PM, Frank Barknecht wrote:

> Hallo,
> marius schebella hat gesagt: // marius schebella wrote:
>
>> otoh, I think pd-extended or any packged pd distro will always  
>> include
>> these libraries. pddp is in some way a side product of pd-extended.
>
> But even then, shouldn't you use proper namespaces and [import]? ;)
> But even then, I don't think, pddp should be restricted to only work
> with pd-extended.

Sounds like a good idea.  I think that namespace prefixes are  
probably the preferred option for the help patches because they  
always give you the object you want, regardless of what is loaded and  
how.  Plus they work on pd-vanilla and pd-extended.

>> I don't see why help patches should not make use of the "full" pd  
>> resources.
>> what exactly are your points against relying on other libraries?
>
> I'm only against this for help-patches or templates for help-patches,
> as this is the central ressource to get info on how to use an object.
> Relying on externals "just for good looks" i.e. without any technical
> need breaks easy accessibility of documentation.

PDDP has been around for 5 years and miller has not included anything  
from it.  Therefore, PDDP is not part of pd-vanilla.  In order to  
make good help patches, we are going to have to use objects that are  
not included in pd-vanilla.  Pd-extended is a common platform for  
using externals, and Pd-extended fully embraces PDDP.  So I don't  
think it's a problem to use some externals when they are useful.  For  
example, [pddp/pddplink] is a standard object for PDDP help patches.  
That said, people should try to use common solutions, and more often  
than not, those involve using pd-vanilla constructs.

As for the stylesheets, I think the idea is quite cool, but that  
seems to me to be a "version 2" feature.  I also played with a web- 
style nav for help patches, but it turned out to be too complicated:

http://puredata.org/dev/pddp/pddp-drafts/template-10-grab.png

.hc


>
> Ciao
> -- 
>  Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__
>
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Re: [PD] pddp drafts

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

That will be handy for PDa patches, since there is no [prepend],  
[list] or settable [send] in PDa.


.hc


On Sep 17, 2007, at 10:35 AM, hard off wrote:


i got it!

a settable send using only pd vanilla objects.

see the attached patches.

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Re: [PD] future of externals (was Re: pddp drafts)

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

On Sep 17, 2007, at 2:04 PM, victor wrote:


But in the future there will
be "standard libraries" which do not exist yet. these standard  
libraries

will be structured like standard libraries in other programming
languages.

when?, my life is short


Contributions welcome!  :D

.hc





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Re: [PD] pddp drafts

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

FYI: with the PDDP templates, we are aiming for 0.40 and up since Pd- 
extended 0.39.3 is basically released.

.hc

On Sep 17, 2007, at 8:34 AM, marius schebella wrote:

> the "new" send (which takes a set message) is only included with pd  
> 0.40
> and up.
> marius.
>
> IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
>> marius schebella wrote:
>>> and iem_send (a settable send object).
>>
>> but why don't you just use [send]?
>>
>> fmga.sdr
>> IOhannes
>>
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Re: [PD] channels and dac

[Batuhan Bozkurt]

Roman Haefeli wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-09-17 at 16:23 +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
>   
>> Hallo,
>> IOhannes m zmoelnig hat gesagt: // IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> you can script the entire audio-settings dialog.
>>> the problem is, that you can only script the entire audio-settings 
>>> dialog, and not parts of it (this is: you have to specify audio-api, 
>>> inchannels, outchannels, latency, midi-stuff ,...)
>>>   
>> Do you have a pointer to some examples for this or the specs or where
>> to find the specs for audio dialog messages?
>> 
>
> actually, i found nowhere documentation about this, probably also
> because the format of these messages will change over pd versions.
>
> however, you can easily find out, what you need to send by eavesdroping
> on the 'pd channel':
>
> [r pd]
> |
> [print]
>
> then choose the desired settings in the menu and click 'ok'. as soon as
> you click ok, you'll see the message (and its format) in the pd-console.
>
> this is the hack i use to get jack running, since '-jack' isn't working
> here and always having to open the menu is odd.
>
> to finally answer atte's initial question:
> yes, it is possible to set the number of channels from within a
> pd-patch.
>
> roman
>
>
>
>   
>   
This is an excellent trick. PD was not defaulting to 2 channels for some 
reason in my machine, and setting inchannels, outchannels with "-jack" 
was not working here too. I've sniffed the message and am sending it to 
pd now and it works like a charm.
Is this documented anywhere?

Batuhan

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Re: [PD] inconsistencies with lib names (was: representning classes and selectors in the wiki)

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

On Sep 17, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Frank Barknecht wrote:

> Hallo,
> Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
>
>> Call me an anarchist, but I believe that we can do it without an
>> editor-in-chief.  It just takes some communication and mutual
>> respect.  We've gotten this far with the whole Pd-extended collection
>> without an editor-in-chief.
>
> Unless one considers you to be the pd-extended editor-in-chief. ;)

Yeah... I think that's part of the problem with Pd-extended, that I  
have been the de facto editor-in-chief.  I think it'll work much  
better as more people get involved.  I can't keep up on the details  
of everyone's libs... :D

> An editor-in-chief wouldn't need to be a real person. A wiki page or a
> textfile in cvs/svn would be enough plus some simple rules.
> Registering a namespace name would be as simple as writing the name
> one wants to use plus a contact in there.
>
> Possible simple rules could be:
>
> * announcements should go to pd-dev before registering.
> * otherwise first come, first serve.
> * everthing that starts with "NAME/" is reserved to the registered
>   project.
> * every class that is registered should always be used with "NAME/".
>
> Additionaly rules could be:
>
> * NAMES must start with letter or digit and be all lowercase.
> * NAMES starting with an _underscore are for private use (and cannot
>   be registered)
>
> Only remaning issue would be that generic/functional names like "math"
> or "std" or "pd" are tricky, because they might be needed for a real
> std-namespace later. Vendor-based names like "footils" are easier in
> this regard, but mnemonics are worse.

This all sounds excellent, I think this is exactly what would work  
well.  As for choosing standard namespace names, I think that we  
should follow the lazy consensus rule, with required discussion,  
i.e., standard lib names should not be automatically accepted unless  
there is discussion.

In order for things to get done, I think we need "project leads",  
which have similar duties to an editor-in-chief, but I think it  
should be more like a community organizer who focuses on organizing  
things like the rules for a given library.  A key difference would be  
that a project lead would not have the complete authority of a editor- 
in-chief.  The mob that is the Pd community would always have some  
say if we want. :)

.hc

>
> Ciao
> -- 
>  Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__
>
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Re: [PD] [declare] won't load standard pathes on osx

[Roman Haefeli]

On Mon, 2007-09-17 at 22:35 +0200, Enrique Erne wrote:
> hi 
> 
> i try to load hp1~.pd from iemabs with Pd version 0.40-2 compiled for 
> Macintosh
> OSX 10.3
> 
> here it is:
> /Applications/Pd-0.40-2.app/Contents/Resources/extra/iemabs
> 
> that's the test-patch:
> [declare -stdpath ../extra/iemabs]

it's probably necessary to add, that this same [declare] works on
windows and linux (tested was alsways with 0.40.2, iemabs was always in
/extra).

though, the flags -stdlib and -path seem to work as well on osx, but not
-stdpath for some reason.

can anyone on osx please test/confirm that?

roman




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Re: [PD] [PD-dev] repository layout: tags

[David Plans Casal]

On 13 Sep 2007, at 16:08, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

>> A cool thing I've been doing recently with the externals feature  
>> is using them more like symlinks; so for portaudio you can put the  
>> revision you want to stay static in a central location ( e.g. / 
>> svnexternals/portaudio) and then set /that/ as the external  
>> directory.  That way you still have a single copy, but it is  
>> replicated to everywhere it is needed.
>>
>
> How well does this really work in production?  It's really pretty  
> easy to import code into repositories and manage it there.  The  
> idea is cool, but I am not really up for beta testing svn  
> features.  There are plenty of Pd bugs to deal with :D.  This  
> import feature has been around for 10+ years in CVS at least.

I think it's robust enough, but in practice (in _my_ practice), it  
can get hard to keep track of them, and I end up doing a lot of svnlook

d

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Re: [PD] pddp drafts

[B. Bogart]

Hi Marius,

Thanks for taking the dive and contributing ideas to the wiki. I'll
"strike" that task from your todo list. How is the wiki template going?

I think the discussion about externals was well played out, what have
you ended up deciding? (Will your stylesheet system work on vanilla PD 40?)

I am a little confused about the purpose of these templates though, as I
thought you had issues with the way the information was structured in
previous templates (and the over use of canvases) and now I see you have
even more canvases (cnv)!

Here is some feedback:

* I think the idea of the stylesheet is a good one, especially as it
works for multi-lingual PD. Of course the comments would still be
unilingual without lots of extra effort.

* Where did the three panel layout come from? Having two columns for the
content does not really flow well, as they are different sizes. The
extra space for the patch area is nice, but I think most examples need
more vertical space than horizontal, even with template 11 the example
patch is still floating in a lot of empty space. See template 6 for an
example of another alt design that had a bigger patch area.

* The purpose of the canvases in the previous templates is to break up
the content, so that are all the width of the text area or so, when they
are too short they no longer serve to break up the content because they
need to have more emphasis on the text.

* All in all I don't see any improvement of this design to template 11,
Would you consider making template 11 stylesheet compatible?

See my other message about GOPing pddplink.

Great to see all this effort! :)

.b.

marius schebella wrote:
> hey,
> just finished my templates. I did not concentrate so much on content and 
> layout, but on the question how to make different patch layouts with 
> stylesheets.
> I think it is a good idea to make styles as flexible as possible.
> https://www.puredata.info/dev/pddp/pddp-drafts
> So what you see is one patch where you can switch between different 
> styles. The style definitions are in a seperate textfile and control 
> primarily canvases and text (but you can add your own style definitions 
> for guis...). You can set colors, fonts sizes, positions. please play 
> around and create your own layouts!
> The layouts are rewritten everytime you open the patch, so you don't 
> have to worry to overwrite when you save a patch.
> Besides the changes on gui objects, it is also possible to switch 
> headers and footers (or create additional patches). They are GOPs and 
> are scripted during runtime (when you open the patch). they can change 
> their appearance dependent on things like language settings, operating 
> system. But GOPS only support gui objects and comments, I really miss 
> support for images and pddplink. you will need iemlib, zexy, pd 0.39.
> I only tested them on mac, so I would like to hear feedback about other 
> os. thnx.
> marius.
> 
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[PD] [declare] won't load standard pathes on osx

[Enrique Erne]

hi 

i try to load hp1~.pd from iemabs with Pd version 0.40-2 compiled for Macintosh
OSX 10.3

here it is:
/Applications/Pd-0.40-2.app/Contents/Resources/extra/iemabs

that's the test-patch:
[declare -stdpath ../extra/iemabs]

verbose output:
Last login: Mon Sep 17 22:18:52 on ttyp2
Welcome to Darwin!
Piques-Computer:~ pd$ /Applications/Pd-0.40-2.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd
-verbose -stderr
input channels = 2, output channels = 2
Pd version 0.40-2
compiled 12:29:26 Nov  3 2006
port 5400
"/Applications/Pd-0.40-2.app/Contents/Resources/bin/../../MacOS/Pd"
/Applications/Pd-0.40-2.app/Contents/Resources/bin/pd.tk 5400
Waiting for connection request... 
... connected
input channels = 2, output channels = 2
input device 0, channels 2
output device 0, channels 2
framesperbuf 64, nbufs 34
... opened OK.
open:
/Applications/Pd-0.40-2.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/..//Users/pd/netpd/test.pd:
No such file or directory
test.pd: No such file or directory
tried /Users/pd/netpd/../extra/iemabs/hp1~.d_ppc and failed
tried /Users/pd/netpd/hp1~.d_ppc and failed
tried /Applications/Pd-0.40-2.app/Contents/Resources/extra/hp1~.d_ppc and failed
tried /Users/pd/netpd/../extra/iemabs/hp1~.pd_darwin and failed
tried /Users/pd/netpd/hp1~.pd_darwin and failed
tried /Applications/Pd-0.40-2.app/Contents/Resources/extra/hp1~.pd_darwin and 
failed
tried /Users/pd/netpd/../extra/iemabs/hp1~/hp1~.d_ppc and failed
tried /Users/pd/netpd/hp1~/hp1~.d_ppc and failed
tried /Applications/Pd-0.40-2.app/Contents/Resources/extra/hp1~/hp1~.d_ppc and 
failed
tried /Users/pd/netpd/../extra/iemabs/hp1~/hp1~.pd_darwin and failed
tried /Users/pd/netpd/hp1~/hp1~.pd_darwin and failed
tried /Applications/Pd-0.40-2.app/Contents/Resources/extra/hp1~/hp1~.pd_darwin
and failed
tried /Users/pd/netpd/../extra/iemabs/hp1~.pd and failed
tried /Users/pd/netpd/hp1~.pd and failed
tried /Applications/Pd-0.40-2.app/Contents/Resources/extra/hp1~.pd and failed
tried /Users/pd/netpd/../extra/iemabs/hp1~.pat and failed
tried /Users/pd/netpd/hp1~.pat and failed
tried /Applications/Pd-0.40-2.app/Contents/Resources/extra/hp1~.pat and failed
 hp1~
... couldn't create


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[PD] glsl examples

[marius schebella]

Hi (Cyrille),
it seems this link is broken, can someone help me out?
http://drpichon.free.fr/gem_glsl_ch_200070617.zip
marius.

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[PD] polywavesynth v2.1 - fixes path issue

[Phil Stone]

Hi,

I just uploaded a new polywavesynth archive with a revised directory 
structure which eliminates the need to place the polywavesynth folder in 
your PD path. Thanks to Frank for his solution.  Now, (assuming you have 
the svf~ and mrpeach/osc externals installed) you can just load and go!

http://www.pkstonemusic.com/polyWaveSynth.html

or go directly to the download:

http://www.pkstonemusic.com/code/polywavesynth.tgz


Phil Stone
pkstonemusic.com

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Re: [PD] pddp drafts

[Roman Haefeli]

On Mon, 2007-09-17 at 16:59 +0200, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
> hard off wrote:
> > i got it!
> > 
> > a settable send using only pd vanilla objects.
> 
> why don't you just use [send] instead of [setsend]?
> i don't see any added functionality in this abstraction (but an added 
> dependency on the abstraction)

are you reading the list?

it's about to overcome the problem, that the settable [send] is an only
>=0.40 feature.

roman





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Re: [PD] channels and dac

[Roman Haefeli]

On Mon, 2007-09-17 at 16:23 +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
> Hallo,
> IOhannes m zmoelnig hat gesagt: // IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
> 
> > you can script the entire audio-settings dialog.
> > the problem is, that you can only script the entire audio-settings 
> > dialog, and not parts of it (this is: you have to specify audio-api, 
> > inchannels, outchannels, latency, midi-stuff ,...)
> 
> Do you have a pointer to some examples for this or the specs or where
> to find the specs for audio dialog messages?

actually, i found nowhere documentation about this, probably also
because the format of these messages will change over pd versions.

however, you can easily find out, what you need to send by eavesdroping
on the 'pd channel':

[r pd]
|
[print]

then choose the desired settings in the menu and click 'ok'. as soon as
you click ok, you'll see the message (and its format) in the pd-console.

this is the hack i use to get jack running, since '-jack' isn't working
here and always having to open the menu is odd.

to finally answer atte's initial question:
yes, it is possible to set the number of channels from within a
pd-patch.

roman





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Re: [PD] future of externals (was Re: pddp drafts)

[victor]

>
> But in the future there will
> be "standard libraries" which do not exist yet. these standard libraries
> will be structured like standard libraries in other programming
> languages.


when?, my life is short
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Re: [PD] polywavesynth v.2 - now with OSC support

[Phil Stone]

Of course!  I will see to this when I get home from work.  In the 
meantime, polywavesynth works just fine if you include its folder in 
your PD path (Kyle confirmed this).

Thanks, Frank.


Phil


Frank Barknecht wrote:
> Hallo,
> Phil Stone hat gesagt: // Phil Stone wrote:
>
>   
>> The polywavesynth folder needs to be in your PD path, unfortunately.  
>> Frank B. posted a solution to this problem, but it requires [declare], 
>> which isn't available in <0.40.
>> 
>
> As you now include polypoly and singleton, the solution is even
> easier: Just use [lib/polypoly ../polyvoice 20] instead of
> [lib/polypoly polyvoice 20].
>
> Or even easier: Copy all the other patches into "lib" next to polypoly
> and singleton as well and only keep the patches in the top-level
> directory, that you want people to use directly without wrapping them
> in polypoly or singleton.
>
> Ciao
>   


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Re: [PD] polywavesynth v.2 - now with OSC support

[Frank Barknecht]

Hallo,
Phil Stone hat gesagt: // Phil Stone wrote:

> The polywavesynth folder needs to be in your PD path, unfortunately.  
> Frank B. posted a solution to this problem, but it requires [declare], 
> which isn't available in <0.40.

As you now include polypoly and singleton, the solution is even
easier: Just use [lib/polypoly ../polyvoice 20] instead of
[lib/polypoly polyvoice 20].

Or even easier: Copy all the other patches into "lib" next to polypoly
and singleton as well and only keep the patches in the top-level
directory, that you want people to use directly without wrapping them
in polypoly or singleton.

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__

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Re: [PD] inconsistencies with lib names (was: representning classes and selectors in the wiki)

[Frank Barknecht]

Hallo,
Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

> Call me an anarchist, but I believe that we can do it without an  
> editor-in-chief.  It just takes some communication and mutual  
> respect.  We've gotten this far with the whole Pd-extended collection  
> without an editor-in-chief.

Unless one considers you to be the pd-extended editor-in-chief. ;) 

An editor-in-chief wouldn't need to be a real person. A wiki page or a
textfile in cvs/svn would be enough plus some simple rules.
Registering a namespace name would be as simple as writing the name
one wants to use plus a contact in there. 

Possible simple rules could be: 

* announcements should go to pd-dev before registering.
* otherwise first come, first serve.
* everthing that starts with "NAME/" is reserved to the registered
  project.
* every class that is registered should always be used with "NAME/".

Additionaly rules could be: 

* NAMES must start with letter or digit and be all lowercase.
* NAMES starting with an _underscore are for private use (and cannot
  be registered)

Only remaning issue would be that generic/functional names like "math"
or "std" or "pd" are tricky, because they might be needed for a real
std-namespace later. Vendor-based names like "footils" are easier in
this regard, but mnemonics are worse.

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__

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Re: [PD] pddp drafts

[Frank Barknecht]

Hallo,
hard off hat gesagt: // hard off wrote:

> the niagara / packel stuff you can easily substitute with [list split 1]

And [packel 1] is the same as [$1(

Ciao
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Re: [PD] future of externals (was Re: pddp drafts)

[Frank Barknecht]

Hallo,
Frank Barknecht hat gesagt: // Frank Barknecht wrote:

> While I agree with Hans and many others, that in the end namespaces
> are the way to go, currently it's a bit of a mess. That's why I'm
> indeed doing some propaganda to restrict onself with using externals
> in help files (and so some extent in abstraction libraries, too),
> because it forces people to set up their systems in a certain way,

Correction. This should read: "because using externals forces
people to set up their systems in a certain way ..."

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__

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Re: [PD] making more rradical objects

[Kevin McCoy]

Hey Luke, that would be great if you could show me some of that, I would
really appreciate it.

Thanks,
Kevin

On 9/17/07, Luke Iannini (pd) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Kevin,For this in rradical/memento I added a "save-bang" to [careGUI],
> and had that dump the tables as lists into communs just before the data was
> written.  On load i'd measure the list length, resize the table and dump it
> back in - it worked great.  It's been a while since I've had time to even
> open Pd, but if you need me to show an example I'd be more than happy to use
> it as an excuse to do so : ).
>
> Cheers
> Luke
>
> On 9/16/07, Kevin McCoy < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Last question - what about persistent arrays in abstractions?  Any
> > advice about that?  Some of my GOPs are table/array based, often for
> > drawable control data..  I don't think I saw anything about this yet.  I am
> > willing to give a shot at developing something for it if it is not included
> > yet.
> >
> > Thanks again!
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> > On 9/16/07, Frank Barknecht <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hallo,
> > > Michal Seta hat gesagt: // Michal Seta wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry, I am not Frank but I think I know the answer to this issue:
> > > >
> > > > 1.  Open an existing rrad abstraction
> > > > 2.  Replace GUI and non-rrad guts with your own.  (leave [pd
> > > memento]
> > > > and boxes connected to it intact)
> > > > 3.  Set up appropriate send/receive in GUIs and whatnot.
> > > > 4.  Open [pd memento], find the communs sends and replace them with
> > > your own.
> > > > 5. enjo.
> > >
> > > Yep, that's basically it. The basic rules are this:
> > >
> > > * Put an object [originator $1 $0] into your abstraction.
> > >
> > > * connect the leftmost inlets and outlets of that originator to the
> > >   leftmost inlets and outlets of your abstraction. (That's just a
> > >   convention, though.)
> > >
> > > * For everthing you want to save, create a [commun /NAME $0] object
> > >   and cross-connect its inlets and outlets to the thing you want to
> > >   save, either a $0-local send/receive or directly. Replace "/NAME"
> > >   with something useful.
> > >
> > >   By cross-connect I mean, that you should connect the outlets of an
> > >   object whose state you want to save to the inlet of the commun and
> > >   the inlets to the outlets of commun.
> > >
> > > Ciao
> > > --
> > > Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__
> > >
> > > __ _
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > 
> > http://pocketkm.blogspot.com
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Re: [PD] pddp drafts

[marius schebella]

that's not working anymore, because the send does not have $0-
marius.

hard off wrote:
> iohannes,
> 
> you're right.  super simple now.  thanks mate. 
> 
> simplified patch is attached.
> 
> 


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Re: [PD] pddp drafts

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

hard off wrote:
> i got it!
> 
> a settable send using only pd vanilla objects.

why don't you just use [send] instead of [setsend]?
i don't see any added functionality in this abstraction (but an added 
dependency on the abstraction)

fgnmasd,.r
IOhannes

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Re: [PD] GEM rendering

[henrik wurster]

ok thank you !!

2007/9/17, IOhannes m zmoelnig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> henrik wurster wrote:
> > ok...what I meant was creating a video-movie. like a command to save a
> > file, like "writesf* does for sound.
> > I was not sure if it is possible with such fast open-gl stugg...
>
> there are several ways to do this:
> [pix_write] will capture the current screen and write it to an
> image-file on disk (so you get a series of images which you then have to
> assemble into a movie-file using your favourite non-realtime video app)
> [pix_record] should be able to record the pixes into a movie on the fly.
> you will have to do the conversion from the rendering-window into a pix
> "by hand" (this is: via [pix_snap]); you can only use quicktime movies
> at the moment; for some people it seems to be stable.
>
>
> > In german we call this "rendering" and lots of programmes also call it
>
> in austria, we refer to "the rasterization from high-level
> representation into low-level data" as "rendering".
> for instance, in the context of our spatialization engine, i use
> "render" for the creation of loudspeaker-signals out of a semi-abstract
> representation of sound-objects (input-signal + room information)
>
>
> > rendering or for the "render settings" when you create a file out of
> > your composition...
>
> but the applications you are talking about are usually non-realtime.
> that is why the "render" to a file per default. for realtime
> applications (like Pd) it seems to be more natural to render into a
> volatile medium (like a screen, a loudspeaker-feed,...)
>
>
>
> mfga.sdr
> IOhannes
>
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Re: [PD] pddp drafts

[marius schebella]

not bad!!
The only solution I knew of was to use a message, clear it and then add 
one element after the other, and then bang it to send it. but this 
solution had a problem, every time you send a message to an object that 
does not exist, you get an error message. so I really appreciate your 
solution!
marius.

hard off wrote:
> i got it!
> 
> a settable send using only pd vanilla objects.
> 
> see the attached patches.


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Re: [PD] future of externals (was Re: pddp drafts)

[Frank Barknecht]

Hallo,
marius schebella hat gesagt: // marius schebella wrote:

> peace!

peace++! ;) 

> frank, I don't want you to fade out on that discussion, because I think 
> it is more than just the pddp problem and it is an interesting 
> discussion for the future.
> 
> 'pd core without externals makes no sense/cannot be separated from 
> externals.' what do you think?

I wouldn't completely subscribe to this view. Currently
MSP/Vanilla/core Pd is the greatest common divisor (and the only one.)

> at the moment the externals are programmer libraries (packed together 
> because they were created by a developer). But in the future there will 
> be "standard libraries" which do not exist yet. these standard libraries 
> will be structured like standard libraries in other programming 
> languages. they will have clear naming conventions and everybody will be 
> happy. what do you think?

We share the same vision of a bright future. Unfortunatly at present
much things are still missing. As I wrote in my mails in the
"libraries" thread, extensions to Pd in the form of externals and
abstractions currently are a bit messy to set up. Some people use the
class names directly "[niagara]", others use them with a prefix
"[zexy/niagara]" (even pd-extended users do this differently), while
others don't have "niagara" at all.[*] 

While I agree with Hans and many others, that in the end namespaces
are the way to go, currently it's a bit of a mess. That's why I'm
indeed doing some propaganda to restrict onself with using externals
in help files (and so some extent in abstraction libraries, too),
because it forces people to set up their systems in a certain way,
where the final way isn't decided yet. And sometimes the two currently
most popular ways (with namespace and without) are even conflicting.

[*] Actually before pd-extended it was a bit simpler, as people were
either using [niagara] or no [niagara] at all. That didn't work for
[counter], though ...

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__

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Re: [PD] GEM rendering

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

henrik wurster wrote:

> I was not sure if it is possible with such fast open-gl stugg... In 

and supposed "stugg" should read "stuff":
rendering a Gem-animation to disk will obviously be much slower for 
various reasons (slow harddisk, processing overhead for compression, 
non-optimized paths from gfx-card's framebuffer back to main memory,...)


fmga.dr
IOhannes

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Re: [PD] GEM rendering

[henrik wurster]

now I have the correct word: to record a movie

2007/9/17, henrik wurster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> ok...what I meant was creating a video-movie. like a command to save a
> file, like "writesf* does for sound.
> I was not sure if it is possible with such fast open-gl stugg... In german
> we call this "rendering" and lots of programmes also call it rendering or
> for the "render settings" when you create a file out of your composition...
>
> 2007/9/17, IOhannes m zmoelnig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > henrik wurster wrote:
> > > sorry it refers to the previous email...how can I render stuff i am
> > > doing with GEM?
> > > its video being transformed...do I need an external renderer ?
> >
> > i still don't understand exactly what you mean.
> >
> > when you use Gem, you normally render stuff into a window, so how does
> > this differ from what you want? how does the rendering not satisfy you?
> > ("render" is a technical term, (here) used for rasterization of
> > graphics)
> >
> > mfga.sdr
> > IOhannes
> >
>
>
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Re: [PD] GEM rendering

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

henrik wurster wrote:
> ok...what I meant was creating a video-movie. like a command to save a 
> file, like "writesf* does for sound.
> I was not sure if it is possible with such fast open-gl stugg...

there are several ways to do this:
[pix_write] will capture the current screen and write it to an 
image-file on disk (so you get a series of images which you then have to 
assemble into a movie-file using your favourite non-realtime video app)
[pix_record] should be able to record the pixes into a movie on the fly. 
you will have to do the conversion from the rendering-window into a pix 
"by hand" (this is: via [pix_snap]); you can only use quicktime movies 
at the moment; for some people it seems to be stable.


> In german we call this "rendering" and lots of programmes also call it 

in austria, we refer to "the rasterization from high-level 
representation into low-level data" as "rendering".
for instance, in the context of our spatialization engine, i use 
"render" for the creation of loudspeaker-signals out of a semi-abstract 
representation of sound-objects (input-signal + room information)


> rendering or for the "render settings" when you create a file out of 
> your composition...

but the applications you are talking about are usually non-realtime. 
that is why the "render" to a file per default. for realtime 
applications (like Pd) it seems to be more natural to render into a 
volatile medium (like a screen, a loudspeaker-feed,...)



mfga.sdr
IOhannes

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Re: [PD] pddp drafts

[hard off]

the niagara / packel stuff you can easily substitute with [list split 1]

and then you're rocking pddp vanilla style!
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Re: [PD] inconsistencies with lib names (was: representning classes and selectors in the wiki)

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

On Sep 16, 2007, at 5:59 AM, Frank Barknecht wrote:

> Hallo,
> Frank Barknecht hat gesagt: // Frank Barknecht wrote:
>
>> Thomas O Fredericks hat gesagt: // Thomas O Fredericks wrote:
>>> By building the pdmtl abstractions layer, users do not have to  
>>> care about
>>> namespaces anymore (anyways, I don't), as all externals/libraries  
>>> are
>>> treated as hidden code to the end user. I still believe that having
>>> namespaces based on authors is a bad idea.
>>
>> Yes. And no, too.
>
> Oops, forgot to explain why "yes and no". Namespaces based on
> author/vendor solve nameclashes: "cxc_counter", "maxlib_counter",
> "cyclone_counter". Namespaces based on functionality don't: Which one
> of the three above should become "math/counter"?
>
> I think, a STD-library of Pd objects should of course be based on
> functional namespaces, while vendor-namespaces could be used to let
> various independent vendors do their own thing without creating
> conflicts with each other.
>
> All an "editor in chief" would need to do is keep a list of which
> vendor names are already taken. The "editor in chief" could then be a
> simple Wiki page on puredata.info. Or not even that, if vendor
> namespaces are based on things like DNS-names as plists in OS-X.

Call me an anarchist, but I believe that we can do it without an  
editor-in-chief.  It just takes some communication and mutual  
respect.  We've gotten this far with the whole Pd-extended collection  
without an editor-in-chief.

.hc

>
> Ciao
> -- 
>  Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__
>
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 kill your television



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Re: [PD] future of externals (was Re: pddp drafts)

[Thomas Grill]

marius schebella schrieb:
> 'pd core without externals makes no sense/cannot be separated from 
> externals.' what do you think?
>   
It makes sense very well. I realized a couple of projects using just 
pd-core, py/pyext and the vibrez gui.
I'm very much of Frank's opinion in this respect. Help files should be 
self-consistent, otherwise they are dependent on the distribution.

greetings, Thomas


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Re: [PD] GEM rendering

[henrik wurster]

ok...what I meant was creating a video-movie. like a command to save a file,
like "writesf* does for sound.
I was not sure if it is possible with such fast open-gl stugg... In german
we call this "rendering" and lots of programmes also call it rendering or
for the "render settings" when you create a file out of your composition...

2007/9/17, IOhannes m zmoelnig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> henrik wurster wrote:
> > sorry it refers to the previous email...how can I render stuff i am
> > doing with GEM?
> > its video being transformed...do I need an external renderer ?
>
> i still don't understand exactly what you mean.
>
> when you use Gem, you normally render stuff into a window, so how does
> this differ from what you want? how does the rendering not satisfy you?
> ("render" is a technical term, (here) used for rasterization of graphics)
>
> mfga.sdr
> IOhannes
>
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Re: [PD] channels and dac

[Frank Barknecht]

Hallo,
IOhannes m zmoelnig hat gesagt: // IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:

> you can script the entire audio-settings dialog.
> the problem is, that you can only script the entire audio-settings 
> dialog, and not parts of it (this is: you have to specify audio-api, 
> inchannels, outchannels, latency, midi-stuff ,...)

Do you have a pointer to some examples for this or the specs or where
to find the specs for audio dialog messages?

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__

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Re: [PD] GEM rendering

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

henrik wurster wrote:
> sorry it refers to the previous email...how can I render stuff i am 
> doing with GEM?
> its video being transformed...do I need an external renderer ?

i still don't understand exactly what you mean.

when you use Gem, you normally render stuff into a window, so how does 
this differ from what you want? how does the rendering not satisfy you?
("render" is a technical term, (here) used for rasterization of graphics)

mfga.sdr
IOhannes

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Re: [PD] GEM rendering

[henrik wurster]

sorry it refers to the previous email...how can I render stuff i am doing
with GEM?
its video being transformed...do I need an external renderer ?

2007/9/17, IOhannes m zmoelnig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> henrik wurster wrote:
> > with pd GEM I mean of course, like some realtime video manipulation
>
> what exactly do you mean?
>
> m.sdr
> IOhannes
>
> >
> > 2007/9/17, henrik wurster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >:
> >
> > hello list,
> >
> > is there any way to render stuff made with pd?is it limited,
> > or any external renderer ?might seem a silly question
> > - henrik
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> > ___
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Re: [PD] -nogui problem

[mami music]

hey frank thanks a lot
what a strange bug!!! but indeeed i placed a [netreceive] object and it
worked... hmmm might be something good to improve...

ah and upgraded

cheers
daniel

2007/9/14, Frank Barknecht <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> Hallo,
> mami music hat gesagt: // mami music wrote:
>
> > i?ve been discovering GriPd. Had not used it and seems to work fine. But
> > while testing it i tried to run PD  .38.4 in winXP with the -nogui tag
> on
> > the batch file.
>
> First: Upgrade Pd. 0.38 is two or three years old.
>
> > But strangely the computer seems to get in a loop cause it doesnt load
> the
> > pd patch, neither opens the GriPd console and consumes allthe processing
> > power.
>
> Does it go aways, if you put a netreceive object into your patch? This
> is/was a bug in Pd's Windows version.
>
> Ciao
> --
> Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__
>
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Re: [PD] GEM rendering

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

henrik wurster wrote:
> with pd GEM I mean of course, like some realtime video manipulation

what exactly do you mean?

m.sdr
IOhannes

> 
> 2007/9/17, henrik wurster <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >:
> 
> hello list,
> 
> is there any way to render stuff made with pd?is it limited,
> or any external renderer ?might seem a silly question
> - henrik
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] GEM rendering

[henrik wurster]

with pd GEM I mean of course, like some realtime video manipulation

2007/9/17, henrik wurster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> hello list,
>
> is there any way to render stuff made with pd?is it limited,
> or any external renderer ?might seem a silly question
> - henrik
>
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[PD] future of externals (was Re: pddp drafts)

[marius schebella]

peace!
frank, I don't want you to fade out on that discussion, because I think 
it is more than just the pddp problem and it is an interesting 
discussion for the future.

'pd core without externals makes no sense/cannot be separated from 
externals.' what do you think?

at the moment the externals are programmer libraries (packed together 
because they were created by a developer). But in the future there will 
be "standard libraries" which do not exist yet. these standard libraries 
will be structured like standard libraries in other programming 
languages. they will have clear naming conventions and everybody will be 
happy. what do you think?

marius.


Frank Barknecht wrote:
 > Hallo,
 > marius schebella hat gesagt: // marius schebella wrote:
 >
 >> you give me the feeling that I am the bad guy with the bulldozer, 
trying
 >> to ruin all your efforts to keep pd pure and original.
 >
 > I didn't intend to do that, sorry. Ah, email ... I'm not taking
 > part in pddp, I just wanted to express my view on that issue.
 >
 > Ciao


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[PD] GEM rendering

[henrik wurster]

hello list,

is there any way to render stuff made with pd?is it limited,
or any external renderer ?might seem a silly question
- henrik
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Re: [PD] pddp drafts

[marius schebella]

sorry that I was not precise.
the "new" send object has a right inlet that takes a message [symbol x( 
to set the new destination. It is the same as iem_lib.
So since the whole "style" feature is in an abstraction, I can easily 
change that in one central file.
at the moment it relies either on iem_send, or pd 0.40up. but I will 
change it anyway so that it does not rely on either one...
marius.

IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
> marius schebella wrote:
>> the "new" send (which takes a set message) is only included with pd 
>> 0.40 and up.
> 
> hopefully no send implementation will ever have a "set" message that 
> changes its behaviour
> 
> otoh, pd-0.40 has been available for more than a year now, so why not 
> use it?
> 
> instead of using hacks depending on externals, it would be better to 
> invest the energy in helping hans to get pd-extended-0.40 released,
> 
> mfg.ft
> IOhannes
> 


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Re: [PD] pddp drafts

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

marius schebella wrote:
> the "new" send (which takes a set message) is only included with pd 0.40 
> and up.

hopefully no send implementation will ever have a "set" message that 
changes its behaviour

otoh, pd-0.40 has been available for more than a year now, so why not 
use it?

instead of using hacks depending on externals, it would be better to 
invest the energy in helping hans to get pd-extended-0.40 released,

mfg.ft
IOhannes

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Re: [PD] pddp drafts

[marius schebella]

the "new" send (which takes a set message) is only included with pd 0.40 
and up.
marius.

IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
> marius schebella wrote:
>> and iem_send (a settable send object).
> 
> but why don't you just use [send]?
> 
> fmga.sdr
> IOhannes
> 
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Re: [PD] channels and dac

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

Atte André Jensen wrote:
> Derek Holzer wrote:
> 
>> Well, without any flags defined by the starting command or the saved 
>> settings, then PD would start with two channels (stereo) and adding more 
>> with the [adc~] or [dac~] would have no effect.
> 
> Ok, so I need to specify on the commandline how many channels I need...


you can script the entire audio-settings dialog.
the problem is, that you can only script the entire audio-settings 
dialog, and not parts of it (this is: you have to specify audio-api, 
inchannels, outchannels, latency, midi-stuff ,...)

if you know all these, you could just do a loadbang in your patch to 
create a sufficient number of channels.


fgmadsr.
IOhannes

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Re: [PD] channels and dac

[Atte André Jensen]

Derek Holzer wrote:

> Well, without any flags defined by the starting command or the saved 
> settings, then PD would start with two channels (stereo) and adding more 
> with the [adc~] or [dac~] would have no effect.

Ok, so I need to specify on the commandline how many channels I need...

> I can tell you for sure that extra channels add extra CPU, due to PD 
> maintaining connections with the audio drivers. I notice this when, for 
> example, I use my Hammefall DSP with -channels 18 instead of -channels 2 
> or -channels 8 or whatever. Some audio drivers are "greedier" than 
> others, so switching between them can show you a difference in load.

Ok

> Of course, you can always test these things yourself ;-)

Sure, 32 channels, pd idle uses 3,3%cpu, 2 channels, pd idle uses 2%. 
This is on my IBM T41  laptop running jack at 128/3 (latency 8,71 ms).

But I was wondering if it had any impact that would be sporadic, but it 
seems not. However I'll modify my startup script to start with 
appropriate number of channels...

-- 
peace, love & harmony
Atte

http://atte.dk   | http://myspace.com/attejensen
http://anagrammer.dk | http://atte.dk/compositions

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Re: [PD] pddp drafts

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

marius schebella wrote:
> and iem_send (a settable send object).

but why don't you just use [send]?

fmga.sdr
IOhannes

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Re: [PD] channels and dac

[Derek Holzer]

Howdy,

Atte André Jensen wrote:
> Nikola Jeremic wrote:
> 
>> first set the number of channels you need with jack
>> run pd with jack-audio
>> make object
>> [dac~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
> 
> That's possible. However what I'd like to do is to simply run "pd" 
> (without -channels) and then be able to somehow *in a pd patch* select 
> how many channels to use.

Well, without any flags defined by the starting command or the saved 
settings, then PD would start with two channels (stereo) and adding more 
with the [adc~] or [dac~] would have no effect.

> 
>> it depends on your patch... more processing - more cpu :) so i belive 
>> more channels - more cpu
>> corect me if im wrong
> 
> I believe the same as you, but I'd like to know :-)

I can tell you for sure that extra channels add extra CPU, due to PD 
maintaining connections with the audio drivers. I notice this when, for 
example, I use my Hammefall DSP with -channels 18 instead of -channels 2 
or -channels 8 or whatever. Some audio drivers are "greedier" than 
others, so switching between them can show you a difference in load.

Of course, you can always test these things yourself ;-)

best,
d.

-- 
derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista
---Oblique Strategy # 67:
"Emphasize the flaws"

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Re: [PD] pddp drafts

[Frank Barknecht]

Hallo,
marius schebella hat gesagt: // marius schebella wrote:

> you give me the feeling that I am the bad guy with the bulldozer, trying 
> to ruin all your efforts to keep pd pure and original.

I didn't intend to do that, sorry. Ah, email ... I'm not taking
part in pddp, I just wanted to express my view on that issue.

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__

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Re: [PD] channels and dac

[Atte André Jensen]

Nikola Jeremic wrote:

> first set the number of channels you need with jack
> run pd with jack-audio
> make object
> [dac~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

That's possible. However what I'd like to do is to simply run "pd" 
(without -channels) and then be able to somehow *in a pd patch* select 
how many channels to use.

> it depends on your patch... more processing - more cpu :) so i belive 
> more channels - more cpu
> corect me if im wrong

I believe the same as you, but I'd like to know :-)

-- 
peace, love & harmony
Atte

http://atte.dk   | http://myspace.com/attejensen
http://anagrammer.dk | http://atte.dk/compositions

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