Re: [PD] Multiple sessions on Windows
On 04/01/2013 23:46, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: On Jan 1, 2013, at 6:04 PM, Pierre-Olivier Boulant wrote: On 13/12/2012 04:45, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: On Dec 12, 2012, at 6:51 PM, Patrice Colet wrote: - Mail original - De: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at ok, I'm seeing the same thing. double-clicking and 'pd -open' are the same thing on Windows. I'm going to implement the double-click opening in Tcl, here's a bug report for 'pd -open': https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detailaid=3595309group_id=55736atid=478070 allright thanks for that OK, I implemented the double-click singleton opening. Starting with tomorrow's build, double-clicking a .pd file will open the patch in the already running instance of Pd-extended. It also means that üßáôå work. .hc Hi, I can't get a second session of Pd to start with the latest releases (2013 01 01). The first session catches the double click on pd/bin/pd.exe or pd/bin/pd.com and I get this in the console: Ignoring '': doesn't look like a Pd-file I tried starting a copy of pd.exe, but I got the same thing in the end. I notice an extra pd.exe running in the task manager for each subsequent start of pd.exe, but I can't access any of them but the first session. I have to shut them down from the task manager. I think I got this working well. Basically the way it works now is that use uses DDE to receive the double-clicked filename. This also gives Pd the filename in full unicode, while %ProgramFiles\pd\bin\pd.exe -open is still only ASCII or maybe latin1. That unfortunately means that if the file that launches Pd has extended unicode chars in it, that file won't be loaded since its handed to Pd using pd.exe -open. So the first instance of Pd that starts registers as the DDE server. Then any double-clicked files are sent to the first instance via DDE. Then any other new Pd instances just don't register with DDE. Unlike with GNU/Linux, there is no check whether the current instance should quit since Windows sends the DDE directly, we don't need a tcl program to find the Pd instance and send it a message. .hc Hi, Thanks for looking into this. Has this been integrated in the current latest? As of : Pd-0.43.4-extended-20130104 I cannot start a second session from a cmd window, the execute from the start menu, double-clicking, selecting either pd.exe or pd.com and typing Enter. All this still only loads one session. If I start a patch by all the means listed above, I still only have one instance in the end. Cheers Pierre-Olivier ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Dynamic routing for audio signals
G! This perfectly fixes a problem I had years ago Why did i not make that connection back then? ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page
Am 03.01.2013 um 22:52 schrieb Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at: I'm very much interested in maintaining the FLOSS manuals book, and I've contributed to it in the past. These days, my time for Pd is quite limited. But I will try to find time to update key bits like that. Derek has made me an admin of it, but I didn't have the time to look through it and do much with it. maybe we can do another sprint some time where we push it a bit. max ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page
On 05/01/2013 02:47, Ed Kelly wrote: Also notice that neither you nor I are the least bit interested in fixing these problems in the FLOSS manual, and we're especially not interested in taking it on as a long term project. Who does that leave? If it leaves anyone wouldn't their time be better spent fixing the doc problems listed on the tracker than etching in stone a description of a moving target? Well, if you have to teach Pd to art students who are used to using Photoshop and Final Cut Pro (as I do) the FLOSS manual page is very useful to give them some idea of what the objects are. It may not be 100% accurate, but at least it is (only) a start. I do hope that the search mechanism replaces static docs conceptually, but here is why they should be kept. Learning Pd from scratch is not easy unless you are already a computer scientist. How do I know what the objects are called is I agree, the wrong question in so many ways. However, 80% of my undergraduate students basically give up at that point if they can't find the answer, and probably 60% of my masters students, often after saying I hate Pd. This question usually comes up in the first lesson. I could criticise them for this, except that there is an impression that Pd is open as well as open-source. Is it? Or is it highly elitist? I think it can be both, but I don't want to kick away the ladder... Perhaps the problem lies more with standards for documentation across the whole community - it's never going to happen (remember Pdpedia?) because the Pd community can be somewhat anarchic. Hats off to Hans - making Pd-extended work is like nailing jelly to the wall I guess. There are some small things we could do. For example, a description of what lies in each folder of externals and what they are for may well be enough, followed by a list of objects. My students are _scared_ of Pd because it is so utterly different to anything else they have ever engaged with. A bit of documentation that isn't in Pd itself eases the pain somewhat. A static web page will never be up-to-date since the pd externals folder is always a moving target. But it is better than nothing. It was really hard persuading students to learn Pd when Flossmanuals didn't exist. It's still hard, but it does open some doors to my students. Ed -Jonathan .hc I agree this is something useful despite all that has been said. It's not perfect or up to date, but it's really better than nothing. It is also a bit easier to access for non-English speakers since you can translate theses lists (not the object names - yet ;) ) But Search and help-patches are limited to English for the moment. pob ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] GUI overload
One other occasion where I used to have the same thing happen to me which might shed some light on the situation. Remember Brazil? I tried all evening to get my GUI-intensive patches working. Fortunately we did, in the end, get some music. It was all down to that pesky firewire interface, using Jack. I had to run Pd in -rt mode, and I have found that running Pd in -rt often causes the GUI to seize up completely in my patches, in exactly the same way as it did for the latest one. I don't use Jack any more, nor do I ever run Pd in -rt mode. Without -rt I find I can do things like create a new [table] object and copy audio data from a recording of the [adc~] into the table, without any audio dropouts. Ed; Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics! http://sharktracks.co.uk/ - Original Message - From: Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu To: Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at; pd-list@iem.at pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, 5 January 2013, 4:18 Subject: Re: [PD] GUI overload So now a question for me is - should I change || to + in the 0.44 release? My first impulse is to hold off since I can't be sure it won't affect scheduling in some other unknown way - after al if it makes one thing happen faster it presumably makes something else happen slower. I'm hoping to make 0.44 official this weekend :) M On Sat, Jan 05, 2013 at 01:07:44AM +, Ed Kelly wrote: Oooh, aargh, exactly the same! San Diego (Houston) we have a problem...Miller's sys_pollgui() fix is the only one I found that works, and perhaps we don't know why it works, but it works for me. Bear in mind I have 32x64+256=2304 GUI objects to update when the pattern changes on my sequencer, but I'm not entirely convinced that is the whole problem. The version I sent you (with all those GUI updates) worked fine it turned out, but the version I made of the sequencer to try to counteract this (with no GUI updates) - the performance patch with that still had the problem. Since I now have both Pd versions - hacked vanilla and extended - is there any test I can carry out to determine what the issue might be? Ed Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics! http://sharktracks.co.uk/ - Original Message - From: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at To: Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: pd-list@iem.at pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, 5 January 2013, 0:08 Subject: Re: [PD] GUI overload Have you tried using the Pd-extended PPA, there is a Lucid package there: https://launchpad.net/~eighthave/+archive/pd-extended sudo add-apt-repository ppa:eighthave/pd-extended .hc On Jan 4, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Ed Kelly wrote: Hey Hans... I'm on Lucid (10.04LTS Ubuntu). I've tried to get later Ubuntu versions to run on my new and old machines with no success, so I compiled the source code of Pd-extended 0.43 (2012-12-28 build). All was fine in linux_make/, then I tried sudo make install from packages directory. install -p -m 644 jmmmp-meta.pd \ /home/edward/software/pd/extended/0.43/pd-extended/packages/build/lib/pd-extended/extra/jmmmp test -z || (\ install -p -m 644 /home/edward/software/pd/extended/0.43/pd-extended/packages/build/lib/pd-extended/extra/jmmmp \ ) /bin/sh: Syntax error: ) unexpected make[2]: *** [libdir_install] Error 2 ? Ed Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics! http://sharktracks.co.uk/ - Original Message - From: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at To: pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Friday, 28 December 2012, 5:22 Subject: Re: [PD] GUI overload Hey Ed, I just committed a couple more fixes for [tgl] and [mknob] that make them only send the GUI updates when something actually has changed. This can greatly reduce the amount of traffic to the GUI. Can you try your patch with the 2012-12-28 build of Pd-extended and see if you still get freezes? http://autobuild.puredata.info/auto-build/2012-12-28/ .hc On 12/16/2012 08:47 AM, Ed Kelly wrote: Hi List, I'm not going to say whether this is a recurrent problem as it's hard to say whether the rewrite of the GUI has affected it... I'm using a lot of abstractions with larger GOP or non-GOP GUIs, and I find the following problem occurs. There comes a point where the GUI objects stop responding in a patch when it is reloaded. I am wondering if there is a specific limit to GUI objects that could be changed. I think Pd is making some kind of decision that there's too much of this stuff - I'm gonna prioritize the audio and not worry about it and I'd like
Re: [PD] Multiple sessions on Windows
Hi, Thanks for looking into this. Has this been integrated in the current latest? As of : Pd-0.43.4-extended-20130104 I cannot start a second session from a cmd window, the execute from the start menu, double-clicking, selecting either pd.exe or pd.com and typing Enter. All this still only loads one session. If I start a patch by all the means listed above, I still only have one instance in the end. Cheers Pierre-Olivier Can you try this with Pd 'vanilla' 0.44 test 1? It's on http://crca.ucsd.edu/~msp/software.html ... I'd love to know whether this is happening in vanilla or not before I make the 'official' release! thanks Miller ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page
- Original Message - From: Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com; Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at Cc: Pd List pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page Also notice that neither you nor I are the least bit interested in fixing these problems in the FLOSS manual, and we're especially not interested in taking it on as a long term project. Who does that leave? If it leaves anyone wouldn't their time be better spent fixing the doc problems listed on the tracker than etching in stone a description of a moving target? Well, if you have to teach Pd to art students who are used to using Photoshop and Final Cut Pro (as I do) the FLOSS manual page is very useful to give them some idea of what the objects are. It may not be 100% accurate, but at least it is (only) a start. I do hope that the search mechanism replaces static docs conceptually, but here is why they should be kept. Learning Pd from scratch is not easy unless you are already a computer scientist. How do I know what the objects are called is I agree, the wrong question in so many ways. Pd is basically just rectangles containing words, connected by lines. Each box should do one thing and do it well, to draw from the unix philosophy. Lines connect the input of one box to another so that complex problems may be solved by combining many simple, clearly-defined building blocks to one another. Aside from the particulars of controlling the flow of data through the diagram, what other question is there than, How do I know what the objects are called? However, 80% of my undergraduate students basically give up at that point if they can't find the answer, and probably 60% of my masters students, often after saying I hate Pd. Of course they might also have just found out what happens when you try to click Undo more than once in a row. Or they projected a patch on a screen for a demo and tried to enlarge the patch by making the fonts bigger, and Pd mocked them by making a mess because well, they didn't tell Pd to also scale the x,y positions and Pd isn't about to make any assumption at all about what the user wants because then it would be coddling them. Also they can't change the colors. Also in tk 8.4 the fonts hurt their eyes. Also the tk menus respond to clicks in a slightly different way than native tk menus. Also moving an array (which also is limited to black and white) not only causes dropouts but animates with speed similar to an Apple II. Also every time they load a soundfile they are in danger of a dropout. Also patches look slightly different on different machines so that Alice may send perfectly designed patches to Bob but Bob sees overlapping text and wonders silently why Alice is so sloppy. Also any time they consider improving any of this behavior they are faced with a graveyard of revisions by people much smarter than they are which are way more elegant than anything they'd ever come up with. Pd _clearly_ hates them from their perspective. Provably, because as you said they're already using advanced software that has tons of quality documentation and teams of devs devoted to caring about how well-designed the interface actually is. And let's hope they don't come on this list and see the general ethos that while Pd is barebones, real men build patches from the ground up and eschew pre-fabbed solutions. (Again drawing from the unix philosophy.) Fine, but somehow that translates into a programming environment that's less accessible for people with vision problems, and a single undo history? That's absurd. I wouldn't criticize them for not being Nelson Mandela. This question usually comes up in the first lesson. I could criticise them for this, except that there is an impression that Pd is open as well as open-source. Is it? Or is it highly elitist? I think it can be both, but I don't want to kick away the ladder... It's much simpler than all that. A program that has a single undo history quite simply _should_ suck in the eyes of the beginner. It sucks because it ignores the small amount of memory a beginner has for visualizing in the language, and it sucks because it ignores the enormous power modern computers have to store this history for the user. Again, your students _know_ this from working with programs that require much more sophisticated command histories and deliver them flawlessly. They should rightly be suspicious of how much of their limited time this outlier software will actually require of them _before_ they can even start benefiting from its intended design. And single-item undo is just one small example. Things like non-standard navigation within a comment, mode-changes with a single, subtle piece of visual feedback (the mouse cursor), and a lot else. (But it's not an endless list.) Perhaps the problem lies more with standards
Re: [PD] Multiple sessions on Windows
On Jan 5, 2013, at 11:53 AM, Miller Puckette wrote: Hi, Thanks for looking into this. Has this been integrated in the current latest? As of : Pd-0.43.4-extended-20130104 I cannot start a second session from a cmd window, the execute from the start menu, double-clicking, selecting either pd.exe or pd.com and typing Enter. All this still only loads one session. If I start a patch by all the means listed above, I still only have one instance in the end. Cheers Pierre-Olivier Can you try this with Pd 'vanilla' 0.44 test 1? It's on http://crca.ucsd.edu/~msp/software.html ... I'd love to know whether this is happening in vanilla or not before I make the 'official' release! Yes, its affected. The attached patch fixes it for me, and improves the unicode filenames sitation. It needs to have file associations setup in order for the double-clicking to work. 0001-allow-unicode-filenames-via-double-clicking-fix-mult.patch Description: Binary data .hc___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Multiple sessions on Windows
On Jan 5, 2013, at 3:50 AM, Pierre-Olivier Boulant wrote: On 04/01/2013 23:46, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: On Jan 1, 2013, at 6:04 PM, Pierre-Olivier Boulant wrote: On 13/12/2012 04:45, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: On Dec 12, 2012, at 6:51 PM, Patrice Colet wrote: - Mail original - De: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at ok, I'm seeing the same thing. double-clicking and 'pd -open' are the same thing on Windows. I'm going to implement the double-click opening in Tcl, here's a bug report for 'pd -open': https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detailaid=3595309group_id=55736atid=478070 allright thanks for that OK, I implemented the double-click singleton opening. Starting with tomorrow's build, double-clicking a .pd file will open the patch in the already running instance of Pd-extended. It also means that üßáôå work. .hc Hi, I can't get a second session of Pd to start with the latest releases (2013 01 01). The first session catches the double click on pd/bin/pd.exe or pd/bin/pd.com and I get this in the console: Ignoring '': doesn't look like a Pd-file I tried starting a copy of pd.exe, but I got the same thing in the end. I notice an extra pd.exe running in the task manager for each subsequent start of pd.exe, but I can't access any of them but the first session. I have to shut them down from the task manager. I think I got this working well. Basically the way it works now is that use uses DDE to receive the double-clicked filename. This also gives Pd the filename in full unicode, while %ProgramFiles\pd\bin\pd.exe -open is still only ASCII or maybe latin1. That unfortunately means that if the file that launches Pd has extended unicode chars in it, that file won't be loaded since its handed to Pd using pd.exe -open. So the first instance of Pd that starts registers as the DDE server. Then any double-clicked files are sent to the first instance via DDE. Then any other new Pd instances just don't register with DDE. Unlike with GNU/Linux, there is no check whether the current instance should quit since Windows sends the DDE directly, we don't need a tcl program to find the Pd instance and send it a message. .hc Hi, Thanks for looking into this. Has this been integrated in the current latest? As of : Pd-0.43.4-extended-20130104 I cannot start a second session from a cmd window, the execute from the start menu, double-clicking, selecting either pd.exe or pd.com and typing Enter. All this still only loads one session. If I start a patch by all the means listed above, I still only have one instance in the end. There were some key changes that I just did yesterday, so 2012-01-05 is the build to try for Windows. .hc ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page
- Original Message - From: Pierre-Olivier Boulant po.boul...@free.fr To: Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com; Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at; Pd List pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 5:46 AM Subject: Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page On 05/01/2013 02:47, Ed Kelly wrote: Also notice that neither you nor I are the least bit interested in fixing these problems in the FLOSS manual, and we're especially not interested in taking it on as a long term project. Who does that leave? If it leaves anyone wouldn't their time be better spent fixing the doc problems listed on the tracker than etching in stone a description of a moving target? Well, if you have to teach Pd to art students who are used to using Photoshop and Final Cut Pro (as I do) the FLOSS manual page is very useful to give them some idea of what the objects are. It may not be 100% accurate, but at least it is (only) a start. I do hope that the search mechanism replaces static docs conceptually, but here is why they should be kept. Learning Pd from scratch is not easy unless you are already a computer scientist. How do I know what the objects are called is I agree, the wrong question in so many ways. However, 80% of my undergraduate students basically give up at that point if they can't find the answer, and probably 60% of my masters students, often after saying I hate Pd. This question usually comes up in the first lesson. I could criticise them for this, except that there is an impression that Pd is open as well as open-source. Is it? Or is it highly elitist? I think it can be both, but I don't want to kick away the ladder... Perhaps the problem lies more with standards for documentation across the whole community - it's never going to happen (remember Pdpedia?) because the Pd community can be somewhat anarchic. Hats off to Hans - making Pd-extended work is like nailing jelly to the wall I guess. There are some small things we could do. For example, a description of what lies in each folder of externals and what they are for may well be enough, followed by a list of objects. My students are _scared_ of Pd because it is so utterly different to anything else they have ever engaged with. A bit of documentation that isn't in Pd itself eases the pain somewhat. A static web page will never be up-to-date since the pd externals folder is always a moving target. But it is better than nothing. It was really hard persuading students to learn Pd when Flossmanuals didn't exist. It's still hard, but it does open some doors to my students. Ed -Jonathan .hc I agree this is something useful despite all that has been said. It's not perfect or up to date, but it's really better than nothing. It is also a bit easier to access for non-English speakers since you can translate theses lists (not the object names - yet ;) ) But it's the Pd FLOSS manual object list-- and only that-- which I'm addressing. If it's not yet translated then it is _worse_ than using the search plugin, because it leaves out info about which objects belong to which libraries and is already out of date as to which objects are in Pd extended. Please spend as much time as you want/can to maintain everything else in the Pd FLOSS manual, and please spend zero time improving the big out-of-date object list because that's time better spent working on the actual Pd documentation. Look at anything in the tracker that includes the word documentation: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=55736atid=478070source=navbar But Search and help-patches are limited to English for the moment. Search has already been translated to a couple of languages. -Jonathan pob ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Multiple sessions on Windows
OK... I think I never saw the problem because all my filenames are ASCII :) I've put out 0.44-0 test 2 (same website) - this affects only Microsoft Windows. Please test! cheers Miller On Sat, Jan 05, 2013 at 12:43:05PM -0500, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: On Jan 5, 2013, at 11:53 AM, Miller Puckette wrote: Hi, Thanks for looking into this. Has this been integrated in the current latest? As of : Pd-0.43.4-extended-20130104 I cannot start a second session from a cmd window, the execute from the start menu, double-clicking, selecting either pd.exe or pd.com and typing Enter. All this still only loads one session. If I start a patch by all the means listed above, I still only have one instance in the end. Cheers Pierre-Olivier Can you try this with Pd 'vanilla' 0.44 test 1? It's on http://crca.ucsd.edu/~msp/software.html ... I'd love to know whether this is happening in vanilla or not before I make the 'official' release! Yes, its affected. The attached patch fixes it for me, and improves the unicode filenames sitation. It needs to have file associations setup in order for the double-clicking to work. .hc ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page
OK, no need to fight. This is about a version of Pd-extended that has been a very long time coming, that had many issues to resolve, that went offline and was unavailable at the start of the workshops I teach. I also can't get my students to download a version of Pd-extended that isn't finished and won't run on their machine. This is their first experience of programming. They'll give up straight away! It sounds like it will be finished soon, and then we can all relax. Until then anything I can do to help my students achieve some traction with Pd, including pointing to a list of objects - until search is finished AND in the release version, is pedagogically valid. PS - I think they learned more this year than they did last year. best, Ed Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics! http://sharktracks.co.uk/ - Original Message - From: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com To: Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk; Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at Cc: Pd List pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, 5 January 2013, 17:37 Subject: Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page - Original Message - From: Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com; Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at Cc: Pd List pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page Also notice that neither you nor I are the least bit interested in fixing these problems in the FLOSS manual, and we're especially not interested in taking it on as a long term project. Who does that leave? If it leaves anyone wouldn't their time be better spent fixing the doc problems listed on the tracker than etching in stone a description of a moving target? Well, if you have to teach Pd to art students who are used to using Photoshop and Final Cut Pro (as I do) the FLOSS manual page is very useful to give them some idea of what the objects are. It may not be 100% accurate, but at least it is (only) a start. I do hope that the search mechanism replaces static docs conceptually, but here is why they should be kept. Learning Pd from scratch is not easy unless you are already a computer scientist. How do I know what the objects are called is I agree, the wrong question in so many ways. Pd is basically just rectangles containing words, connected by lines. Each box should do one thing and do it well, to draw from the unix philosophy. Lines connect the input of one box to another so that complex problems may be solved by combining many simple, clearly-defined building blocks to one another. Aside from the particulars of controlling the flow of data through the diagram, what other question is there than, How do I know what the objects are called? However, 80% of my undergraduate students basically give up at that point if they can't find the answer, and probably 60% of my masters students, often after saying I hate Pd. Of course they might also have just found out what happens when you try to click Undo more than once in a row. Or they projected a patch on a screen for a demo and tried to enlarge the patch by making the fonts bigger, and Pd mocked them by making a mess because well, they didn't tell Pd to also scale the x,y positions and Pd isn't about to make any assumption at all about what the user wants because then it would be coddling them. Also they can't change the colors. Also in tk 8.4 the fonts hurt their eyes. Also the tk menus respond to clicks in a slightly different way than native tk menus. Also moving an array (which also is limited to black and white) not only causes dropouts but animates with speed similar to an Apple II. Also every time they load a soundfile they are in danger of a dropout. Also patches look slightly different on different machines so that Alice may send perfectly designed patches to Bob but Bob sees overlapping text and wonders silently why Alice is so sloppy. Also any time they consider improving any of this behavior they are faced with a graveyard of revisions by people much smarter than they are which are way more elegant than anything they'd ever come up with. Pd _clearly_ hates them from their perspective. Provably, because as you said they're already using advanced software that has tons of quality documentation and teams of devs devoted to caring about how well-designed the interface actually is. And let's hope they don't come on this list and see the general ethos that while Pd is barebones, real men build patches from the ground up and eschew pre-fabbed solutions. (Again drawing from the unix philosophy.) Fine, but somehow that translates into a programming environment that's less accessible for people with vision problems, and a single undo history? That's absurd. I wouldn't criticize them for not being Nelson Mandela.
Re: [PD] Tcl/Tk 8.6.0
Hallo, I just did a PKGBUILD with paches for Tcl 8.60 yesterday -- https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/pd-extended/ Build process is correct, but I have some problems with JACK, BUT I have changed my sound configuration, so maybe it is my fault... -- Fero ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page
- Original Message - From: Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com; Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at Cc: Pd List pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page OK, no need to fight. This is about a version of Pd-extended that has been a very long time coming, that had many issues to resolve, that went offline and was unavailable at the start of the workshops I teach. I also can't get my students to download a version of Pd-extended that isn't finished and won't run on their machine. This is their first experience of programming. They'll give up straight away! Of course. I'm just giving you a beginner's perspective; it's my own memory of that perspective that drives me to work on tools which are currently only marginally useful to me personally. The supermajority of discontent among your students tells me that this perspective hasn't changed much. By far, that is currently the fault of the software-- the documentation is currently too slim and core pd building blocks (and interface) too crude for the question how do I find more objects to be anything like an ancillary question. A static out-of-date list is better than nothing, but as far as potential dev energy I'd really rather see that put into core docs like the ones listed on the bug tracker, which are extremely lacking. That FLOSS list will hopefully become obsolete, but the help docs won't-- even if they're dropped from Pd-extended they're still publicly available. -Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Tcl/Tk 8.6.0
From: michael noble loop...@gmail.com To: PD send List pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 12:53 AM Subject: [PD] Tcl/Tk 8.6.0 Archlinux has bumped Tcl/Tk to the recently released 8.6.0 version. I'm in no hurry to upgrade, but was wondering if the new version is likely to cause problems for Pd in the same way as the move from 8.4.0 to 8.5.0? There's really no way to tell without trying it out. 8.6 is _extremely_ new, though, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are some bugs here and there. Looks like it has png support, and some new commands for moving canvas items, as well as native oo support. There's also a try command that looks pretty nice. List of changes: http://www.tcl.tk/software/tcltk/8.6.html -Jonathan thanks Michael ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Tcl/Tk 8.6.0
On Jan 5, 2013, at 6:32 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: From: michael noble loop...@gmail.com To: PD send List pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 12:53 AM Subject: [PD] Tcl/Tk 8.6.0 Archlinux has bumped Tcl/Tk to the recently released 8.6.0 version. I'm in no hurry to upgrade, but was wondering if the new version is likely to cause problems for Pd in the same way as the move from 8.4.0 to 8.5.0? There's really no way to tell without trying it out. 8.6 is _extremely_ new, though, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are some bugs here and there. Looks like it has png support, and some new commands for moving canvas items, as well as native oo support. There's also a try command that looks pretty nice. List of changes: http://www.tcl.tk/software/tcltk/8.6.html Tcl/Tk 8.6 has been in the works for years, so I wouldn't say its entirely new. But yes, a lot has changed since 8.5, which was released 5 years ago. I plan to switch all the Pd-extended builds to it once 0.43.4 is out. So its good to hear that so far, its working fine :) Tcl/Tk 8.6 is also already in Ubuntu/raring and Debian/sid. .hc ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page
On Jan 5, 2013, at 6:22 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: - Original Message - From: Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com; Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at Cc: Pd List pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page OK, no need to fight. This is about a version of Pd-extended that has been a very long time coming, that had many issues to resolve, that went offline and was unavailable at the start of the workshops I teach. I also can't get my students to download a version of Pd-extended that isn't finished and won't run on their machine. This is their first experience of programming. They'll give up straight away! Of course. I'm just giving you a beginner's perspective; it's my own memory of that perspective that drives me to work on tools which are currently only marginally useful to me personally. The supermajority of discontent among your students tells me that this perspective hasn't changed much. By far, that is currently the fault of the software-- the documentation is currently too slim and core pd building blocks (and interface) too crude for the question how do I find more objects to be anything like an ancillary question. A static out-of-date list is better than nothing, but as far as potential dev energy I'd really rather see that put into core docs like the ones listed on the bug tracker, which are extremely lacking. That FLOSS list will hopefully become obsolete, but the help docs won't-- even if they're dropped from Pd-extended they're still publicly available. -Jonathan While I have agreed and disagreed with various points in this discussion, I think Jonathan's two paragraphs above sum up my feelings on this topic too. Jonathan has put together a really great system for help from the meta data to the search plugin, now we need to put actual content and meta data in our help patches and it'll all be findable in a multitude of ways. All this could even be used to generate the static listing in the FLOSS manuals: just take the object name, then get the library and description from the [pd META]. .hc ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] the next PdCon in...
I had a feeling that was the case. Would the week before be possible? .hc On Jan 4, 2013, at 8:51 PM, Ed Kelly wrote: The first week of October really sucks for anyone working in a UK university (it's the first week of the teaching year). Not sure about other European (sic) nations... Ed Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics! http://sharktracks.co.uk/ - Original Message - From: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at To: Pd List pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 22:04 Subject: [PD] the next PdCon in... Hey all, Its time to start talking about the next PdCon! I was just talking with Golan Levin and Dan Wilcox about the possibility of having the next PdCon at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh. One possibility is having it coincide and partner with a local music and new media festival in the first week of october: http://www.via-pgh.com/festival/2012/ Is that workable for people? Any other discussion about other possible locations? .hc ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page
On 2013-01-05 22:36, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: On Jan 5, 2013, at 6:22 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: - Original Message - From: Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com; Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at Cc: Pd List pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page OK, no need to fight. This is about a version of Pd-extended that has been a very long time coming, that had many issues to resolve, that went offline and was unavailable at the start of the workshops I teach. I also can't get my students to download a version of Pd-extended that isn't finished and won't run on their machine. This is their first experience of programming. They'll give up straight away! Of course. I'm just giving you a beginner's perspective; it's my own memory of that perspective that drives me to work on tools which are currently only marginally useful to me personally. The supermajority of discontent among your students tells me that this perspective hasn't changed much. By far, that is currently the fault of the software-- the documentation is currently too slim and core pd building blocks (and interface) too crude for the question how do I find more objects to be anything like an ancillary question. A static out-of-date list is better than nothing, but as far as potential dev energy I'd really rather see that put into core docs like the ones listed on the bug tracker, which are extremely lacking. That FLOSS list will hopefully become obsolete, but the help docs won't-- even if they're dropped from Pd-extended they're still publicly available. -Jonathan While I have agreed and disagreed with various points in this discussion, I think Jonathan's two paragraphs above sum up my feelings on this topic too. Jonathan has put together a really great system for help from the meta data to the search plugin, now we need to put actual content and meta data in our help patches and it'll all be findable in a multitude of ways. All this could even be used to generate the static listing in the FLOSS manuals: just take the object name, then get the library and description from the [pd META]. Yeah, and we need the spec for [Pd META] to be known. For devs maybe en entry in the externals HOWTO? Martin ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] GUI overload
What would be very useful for me for debugging is if your patch ran on plain Pd-extended, and included every object outside of Pd-extended it needs to run. When I open your Test.perf patch, I get quite a few errors amount missing objects. .hc On Jan 5, 2013, at 6:05 AM, Ed Kelly wrote: One other occasion where I used to have the same thing happen to me which might shed some light on the situation. Remember Brazil? I tried all evening to get my GUI-intensive patches working. Fortunately we did, in the end, get some music. It was all down to that pesky firewire interface, using Jack. I had to run Pd in -rt mode, and I have found that running Pd in -rt often causes the GUI to seize up completely in my patches, in exactly the same way as it did for the latest one. I don't use Jack any more, nor do I ever run Pd in -rt mode. Without -rt I find I can do things like create a new [table] object and copy audio data from a recording of the [adc~] into the table, without any audio dropouts. Ed; Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics! http://sharktracks.co.uk/ - Original Message - From: Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu To: Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at; pd-list@iem.at pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, 5 January 2013, 4:18 Subject: Re: [PD] GUI overload So now a question for me is - should I change || to + in the 0.44 release? My first impulse is to hold off since I can't be sure it won't affect scheduling in some other unknown way - after al if it makes one thing happen faster it presumably makes something else happen slower. I'm hoping to make 0.44 official this weekend :) M On Sat, Jan 05, 2013 at 01:07:44AM +, Ed Kelly wrote: Oooh, aargh, exactly the same! San Diego (Houston) we have a problem...Miller's sys_pollgui() fix is the only one I found that works, and perhaps we don't know why it works, but it works for me. Bear in mind I have 32x64+256=2304 GUI objects to update when the pattern changes on my sequencer, but I'm not entirely convinced that is the whole problem. The version I sent you (with all those GUI updates) worked fine it turned out, but the version I made of the sequencer to try to counteract this (with no GUI updates) - the performance patch with that still had the problem. Since I now have both Pd versions - hacked vanilla and extended - is there any test I can carry out to determine what the issue might be? Ed Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics! http://sharktracks.co.uk/ - Original Message - From: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at To: Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: pd-list@iem.at pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, 5 January 2013, 0:08 Subject: Re: [PD] GUI overload Have you tried using the Pd-extended PPA, there is a Lucid package there: https://launchpad.net/~eighthave/+archive/pd-extended sudo add-apt-repository ppa:eighthave/pd-extended .hc On Jan 4, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Ed Kelly wrote: Hey Hans... I'm on Lucid (10.04LTS Ubuntu). I've tried to get later Ubuntu versions to run on my new and old machines with no success, so I compiled the source code of Pd-extended 0.43 (2012-12-28 build). All was fine in linux_make/, then I tried sudo make install from packages directory. install -p -m 644 jmmmp-meta.pd \ /home/edward/software/pd/extended/0.43/pd-extended/packages/build/lib/pd-extended/extra/jmmmp test -z || (\ install -p -m 644 /home/edward/software/pd/extended/0.43/pd-extended/packages/build/lib/pd-extended/extra/jmmmp \ ) /bin/sh: Syntax error: ) unexpected make[2]: *** [libdir_install] Error 2 ? Ed Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics! http://sharktracks.co.uk/ - Original Message - From: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at To: pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Friday, 28 December 2012, 5:22 Subject: Re: [PD] GUI overload Hey Ed, I just committed a couple more fixes for [tgl] and [mknob] that make them only send the GUI updates when something actually has changed. This can greatly reduce the amount of traffic to the GUI. Can you try your patch with the 2012-12-28 build of Pd-extended and see if you still get freezes? http://autobuild.puredata.info/auto-build/2012-12-28/ .hc On 12/16/2012 08:47 AM, Ed Kelly wrote: Hi List, I'm not going to say whether this is a recurrent problem as it's hard to say whether the rewrite of the GUI has affected it... I'm using a lot of abstractions with larger GOP or non-GOP GUIs, and I find the following problem occurs. There comes a point where the GUI objects stop responding in a patch when it is reloaded. I am wondering if there is a specific limit to GUI objects that could be
Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page
- Original Message - From: Martin Peach martin.pe...@sympatico.ca To: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at Cc: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com; Pd List pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 11:23 PM Subject: Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page On 2013-01-05 22:36, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: On Jan 5, 2013, at 6:22 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: - Original Message - From: Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com; Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at Cc: Pd List pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [PD] translate the Start Here! page OK, no need to fight. This is about a version of Pd-extended that has been a very long time coming, that had many issues to resolve, that went offline and was unavailable at the start of the workshops I teach. I also can't get my students to download a version of Pd-extended that isn't finished and won't run on their machine. This is their first experience of programming. They'll give up straight away! Of course. I'm just giving you a beginner's perspective; it's my own memory of that perspective that drives me to work on tools which are currently only marginally useful to me personally. The supermajority of discontent among your students tells me that this perspective hasn't changed much. By far, that is currently the fault of the software-- the documentation is currently too slim and core pd building blocks (and interface) too crude for the question how do I find more objects to be anything like an ancillary question. A static out-of-date list is better than nothing, but as far as potential dev energy I'd really rather see that put into core docs like the ones listed on the bug tracker, which are extremely lacking. That FLOSS list will hopefully become obsolete, but the help docs won't-- even if they're dropped from Pd-extended they're still publicly available. -Jonathan While I have agreed and disagreed with various points in this discussion, I think Jonathan's two paragraphs above sum up my feelings on this topic too. Jonathan has put together a really great system for help from the meta data to the search plugin, now we need to put actual content and meta data in our help patches and it'll all be findable in a multitude of ways. All this could even be used to generate the static listing in the FLOSS manuals: just take the object name, then get the library and description from the [pd META]. Yeah, and we need the spec for [Pd META] to be known. doc/5.reference/all_about_pd_META.pd I indicate GPL licenses as GPL v2 or GPL v3 because the original search engine was written in Pd and it was easier to parse that way. But I think the standard is GPLv2 so this should probably be mass replaced at some point. For devs maybe en entry in the externals HOWTO? Martin ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] GUI overload
As far as freezes-- with the -rt flag isn't Pd running at a higher priority than the x server? -Jonathan - Original Message - From: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at To: Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: pd-list@iem.at pd-list@iem.at; Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 11:36 PM Subject: Re: [PD] GUI overload What would be very useful for me for debugging is if your patch ran on plain Pd-extended, and included every object outside of Pd-extended it needs to run. When I open your Test.perf patch, I get quite a few errors amount missing objects. .hc On Jan 5, 2013, at 6:05 AM, Ed Kelly wrote: One other occasion where I used to have the same thing happen to me which might shed some light on the situation. Remember Brazil? I tried all evening to get my GUI-intensive patches working. Fortunately we did, in the end, get some music. It was all down to that pesky firewire interface, using Jack. I had to run Pd in -rt mode, and I have found that running Pd in -rt often causes the GUI to seize up completely in my patches, in exactly the same way as it did for the latest one. I don't use Jack any more, nor do I ever run Pd in -rt mode. Without -rt I find I can do things like create a new [table] object and copy audio data from a recording of the [adc~] into the table, without any audio dropouts. Ed; Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics! http://sharktracks.co.uk/ - Original Message - From: Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu To: Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at; pd-list@iem.at pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, 5 January 2013, 4:18 Subject: Re: [PD] GUI overload So now a question for me is - should I change || to + in the 0.44 release? My first impulse is to hold off since I can't be sure it won't affect scheduling in some other unknown way - after al if it makes one thing happen faster it presumably makes something else happen slower. I'm hoping to make 0.44 official this weekend :) M On Sat, Jan 05, 2013 at 01:07:44AM +, Ed Kelly wrote: Oooh, aargh, exactly the same! San Diego (Houston) we have a problem...Miller's sys_pollgui() fix is the only one I found that works, and perhaps we don't know why it works, but it works for me. Bear in mind I have 32x64+256=2304 GUI objects to update when the pattern changes on my sequencer, but I'm not entirely convinced that is the whole problem. The version I sent you (with all those GUI updates) worked fine it turned out, but the version I made of the sequencer to try to counteract this (with no GUI updates) - the performance patch with that still had the problem. Since I now have both Pd versions - hacked vanilla and extended - is there any test I can carry out to determine what the issue might be? Ed Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics! http://sharktracks.co.uk/ - Original Message - From: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at To: Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: pd-list@iem.at pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, 5 January 2013, 0:08 Subject: Re: [PD] GUI overload Have you tried using the Pd-extended PPA, there is a Lucid package there: https://launchpad.net/~eighthave/+archive/pd-extended sudo add-apt-repository ppa:eighthave/pd-extended .hc On Jan 4, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Ed Kelly wrote: Hey Hans... I'm on Lucid (10.04LTS Ubuntu). I've tried to get later Ubuntu versions to run on my new and old machines with no success, so I compiled the source code of Pd-extended 0.43 (2012-12-28 build). All was fine in linux_make/, then I tried sudo make install from packages directory. install -p -m 644 jmmmp-meta.pd \ /home/edward/software/pd/extended/0.43/pd-extended/packages/build/lib/pd-extended/extra/jmmmp test -z || (\ install -p -m 644 /home/edward/software/pd/extended/0.43/pd-extended/packages/build/lib/pd-extended/extra/jmmmp \ ) /bin/sh: Syntax error: ) unexpected make[2]: *** [libdir_install] Error 2 ? Ed Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics! http://sharktracks.co.uk/ - Original Message - From: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at To: pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Friday, 28 December 2012, 5:22 Subject: Re: [PD] GUI overload Hey Ed, I just committed a couple more fixes for [tgl] and [mknob] that make them only send the GUI updates when something actually has changed. This can greatly reduce the amount of traffic to the GUI. Can you try your patch with the 2012-12-28 build of Pd-extended and see if you still get freezes? http://autobuild.puredata.info/auto-build/2012-12-28/
