Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
that works fine for sending audio to and from live and pd, but not midi (as far as i know). if anyone knows how to send midi to and from live and pd (having live's metronome in charge). midi ox/ midi yoke is extremely glitchy, it constantly sends signals that turn things on and off within live, making it impossible to use. On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 7:44 PM, Alexandre Porres por...@gmail.com wrote: i can't remember exactly where i read this, sorry. but i'd really like to be able to use the vst object to run it in ableton. Jeff Hey, why don't you just create a bridge between Live + Pd with Jack? Alex ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- www.avmachinists.org Puerto Rico based Art Collective/ Non-Profit Org ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
Jack works. I've used it before, but the other way around, from live to PD. What I've found boring was that I couldn't figure out how to send more than 1 midi message at the same time. Ended up doing several midi channels to control PD using MIDI. Daniel --- On Fri, 3/26/10, Jeffrey Concepcion jeffreyconcepc...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jeffrey Concepcion jeffreyconcepc...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare? To: Alexandre Porres por...@gmail.com, pd-list Pd-list@iem.at Date: Friday, March 26, 2010, 1:57 PM that works fine for sending audio to and from live and pd, but not midi (as far as i know). if anyone knows how to send midi to and from live and pd (having live's metronome in charge). midi ox/ midi yoke is extremely glitchy, it constantly sends signals that turn things on and off within live, making it impossible to use. On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 7:44 PM, Alexandre Porres por...@gmail.com wrote: i can't remember exactly where i read this, sorry. but i'd really like to be able to use the vst object to run it in ableton. Jeff Hey, why don't you just create a bridge between Live + Pd with Jack?Alex ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- www.avmachinists.org Puerto Rico based Art Collective/ Non-Profit Org -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Jeffrey Concepcion jeffreyconcepc...@gmail.com wrote: that works fine for sending audio to and from live and pd, but not midi (as far as i know). if anyone knows how to send midi to and from live and pd (having live's metronome in charge). midi ox/ midi yoke is extremely glitchy, it constantly sends signals that turn things on and off within live, making it impossible to use. Welcome to the world of interconnectivity ;) What about OSC? Doesn't AL implement that? cheers ./MiS ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
i can't remember exactly where i read this, sorry. but i'd really like to be able to use the vst object to run it in ableton. Jeff Hey, why don't you just create a bridge between Live + Pd with Jack? Alex ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
i can't remember exactly where i read this, sorry. but i'd really like to be able to use the vst object to run it in ableton. Jeff On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 5:21 AM, Thomas Grill g...@g.org wrote: the last i read about the [vst] object in Pd was that is was generally defective (can anyone confirm or correct this?). Jeffrey, do you know where you read this? I would certainly be interested to hear about bug reports. thanks, Thomas -- www.avmachinists.org Puerto Rico based Art Collective/ Non-Profit Org ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?
Hallo, Jonathan Wilkes hat gesagt: // Jonathan Wilkes wrote: I'd just add that one could start from the end of 3.audio.examples and 4.data.structures to get a decent overall idea of what Pd is capable of doing. I learned most of the basic Pd knowledge from these patches (and the html-manual and the control.examples of course, which many people unfortunalty believe they can skip), but that was several years ago, and at that time, there wasn't much else. Today you get more detailed explanation of what these patches do in Miller's book, and you can take courses and workshops, read more books and tutorials and you have this great large community here and elsewhere on the web, which wasn't that big in the past. In rj many of the DSP abstractions are actually taken from the 3.audio.examples with localized variable names (tables, sends), so that you can immediatly use them in your own work without doing that yourself again. Ciao -- Frank ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
(Sorry, had a couple of days off) I actually meant what Roman pointed out, but I wrote it in horrible english. However, I do agree with you that both aspects are complementary. M On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: --- On Fri, 3/19/10, Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de wrote: From: Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare? To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com, pd-list@iem.at, Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistise...@gmail.com, m...@artengine.ca Date: Friday, March 19, 2010, 8:11 PM On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 11:02 -0700, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: --- On Fri, 3/19/10, Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de wrote: From: Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare? To: Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com Cc: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com, pd-list@iem.at, Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistise...@gmail.com, m...@artengine.ca Date: Friday, March 19, 2010, 6:07 PM On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 09:58 +0100, Marco Donnarumma wrote: Talking about Pd It's fundamental to learn how things works, imho. Pd is the fundament for learning how things work. That was my experience (and still is). Roman What are you getting at? The two aren't mutually exclusive. I am actually thinking that the two are complementary. Of course, it helps a lot to have a certain level of knowledge in dsp/math/whatsover before touching Pd. I just wanted to point out, that Pd very well supports the approach of acquiring theory through practice. Concepts such as, that every sound is composed of its sinusoidal partials (just one example of so many possible), sound very abstract and are hard to explain in words. But at the same time, they are often quite easy to illustrate with Pd (see 07.additive.pd from 3.audio.examples). Of course, it is fundamental to learn how things works, but how do you learn those things? My answer is: By using Pd. Similar to how a two year old child learns the basic laws of physics by letting things fall down, throw them away, put them on other things etc, Pd lets you explore the nature of sound. I often feel the need of telling potential Pd users, that it's not necessary to have read many books and be a master in math before doing Pd, but if they do read books, it helps a lot to try things out in Pd right away. I see. I took Marco's statement to mean that talking about Pd is fundamental to learning how things work in Pd. It sounds like you're saying that you don't have to have a comprehensive knowledge of how dsp works before diving into Pd because using Pd is a way of aquiring that knowledge. I agree with both. -Jonathan -- Marco Donnarumma aka TheSAD Independent New Media Arts Professional, Performer, Teacher - Edinburgh, UK PORTFOLIO: http://marcodonnarumma.com LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flxer.net EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?
--- On Fri, 3/19/10, Michal Seta m...@artengine.ca wrote: From: Michal Seta m...@artengine.ca Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare? To: Pierre Massat pimas...@gmail.com Cc: PD list pd-list@iem.at, Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistise...@gmail.com, Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com Date: Friday, March 19, 2010, 5:31 AM Hi Pierre, [...] I think that pdpedia (http://wiki.puredata.info) tried to address this issue. Recently someone suggested to get rid of it because it was not being used much. Perhaps it was not advertised enough and the resulting slim user-base did not provide much motivation to maintainers. Pdpedia addresses also (in some ways) you earlier point, that of finding *about* classes. Type oscillator for instance and you get hundreds of results, some pointing to various sound generators that actually fall into the category of oscillators. I think pdpedia is a great idea and is a potential spot for gathering info about as many externs as possible. Once again, the problem is in maintenance (this is why someone wanted to shut it down) because we all know that developers don't want to write documentation and we, users, composers, video artists, installation artists, students, lurkers and everyone else do not want to do it because we do not understand the developers and, in any case, we don't have time because we have deadlines in whatever we do. Right? Right. I am guilty of that, too. There's an old pddp mockup on puredata.info of a search feature. That would help things out a lot. I like the idea of pdpedia but I don't want to have to leave pd to find out what kind of objects are right here on my harddrive. Another helpful thing would be supercollider-style stats when Pd is started. I see the printout of loaded libraries, but for example I'd really like to know how many objects that is. (And maybe how long it takes to load them.) Also, is there any way to know how many pd-extended objects have no helpfiles? I think any time clicking Help on an object returns the following... 'sorry, couldn't find help patch for serial.pd' ... it should be considered a bug, because for some helpless objects it's practically impossible to even figure out what library they're in to read their source code. -Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
I'm almost finished revising the docs: 2.control.examples, 3.audio.examples, 4.data.structures, and 5.reference. I'll post them to the list when I'm done (should be shortly). cool! Anyway learning Pd is _not_ easy and it doesn't have to be. Hence the learning curve and learning tools could be improved, but you still should be aware that if you want to be able to master such a flexible computing capability you need to get your hands (and mind) dirty. I think it's worth, and I wouldn't like it to be easier. I disagree-- I would like it to be easier, and it should be easier. More time spent trying to figure out how dollarsym atoms get expanded is less time spent making music. The last paragraph of Pd Manual 2.6.5 doesn't reflect the current state of Pd, btw. Do items like that belong on the bug tracker? Well, I agree It could be a better learning, but Michael stole my thought: If I am not interested in solving problems algorithmically through programming, I will not use Pd but some other software that will help me accomplish my goals via some other means that I can understand better. Studying and Teaching I found Pd can operate kind of natural selection that sometimes is needed in some context. By that logic there should be even less documentation (or more outdated/ erroneous docs). But what are the characteristics that make students fit enough to avoid death and reproduce themselves into the next generation of the Pd learning environment? As far as I can tell, Pd crashes will remain Pd crashes, regardless of whether the output isn't boring, so I don't think I understand what you mean. mm.. why less documentation? Could be better and updated documentation as you are doing. Be sure that who's studying and teaching to learn Pd (and not to _instantly_ make music) will be very grateful (i am the first!) ehehe, probably my statement was slightly racist, apologies, I only mean what makes students fit enough to use Pd, or to die in the boredom of User-friendly soft. The _process_ of learning any kind of programming language play an essential role in the way you will use it in the future. As Michael outlined too, I don't think it would be useful to show students there exist a supercool ready-made drum sequencer, but i prefer to teach first how to load a sample in a table, explaining how they can get a drum sequencer from there. Talking about Pd It's fundamental to learn how things works, imho. -- Marco Donnarumma aka TheSAD Independent New Media Arts Professional, Performer, Teacher - Edinburgh, UK PORTFOLIO: http://marcodonnarumma.com LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flxer.net EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 09:58 +0100, Marco Donnarumma wrote: Talking about Pd It's fundamental to learn how things works, imho. Pd is the fundament for learning how things work. That was my experience (and still is). Roman ___ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
--- On Fri, 3/19/10, Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de wrote: From: Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare? To: Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com Cc: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com, pd-list@iem.at, Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistise...@gmail.com, m...@artengine.ca Date: Friday, March 19, 2010, 6:07 PM On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 09:58 +0100, Marco Donnarumma wrote: Talking about Pd It's fundamental to learn how things works, imho. Pd is the fundament for learning how things work. That was my experience (and still is). Roman What are you getting at? The two aren't mutually exclusive. -Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?
Hallo, Pierre Massat hat gesagt: // Pierre Massat wrote: Another thing that'd be nice to make available for new users would be a comprehensive set of generic patches, which would cover the whole range of DSP audio. A little bit like Puckette's audio help patches, only on a higher level (stuff like a basic drum machine, a comprehensive synth, granular synthesis, etc). I know that these aren't impossible to find, but it'd be nice to have it all in the same place. The rj library developed for the creation of RjDj scenes, but also usable outside, tries exactly that. It is all abstractions, all run on Pd vanilla, no externals, not complicated -path setup needed, it has IMO pretty good help files (I wrote most, so I have to say this) and it provides a lot of everyday musician's tools plus some analysis and composition helpers. It's deliberatly minimal, so that it doesn't overwhelm a newbie user with hundreds of objects. It's philosophy is often-needed batteries included. For example, from [list]-abs it has a listmap, listdrip, listreduce, listfilter, listrandom and listnth, but not the other 50 or so list objects. The included objects will solve about 80% of your everyday list-use, for the rest, you can still resort to the full [list]-abs objects. Similar approaches have been taken for other areas. So far it has proven to be a successful base for many interesting music pieces written in Pd for RjDj. Check out trac.rjdj.me for details. Ciao -- Frank ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 11:02 -0700, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: --- On Fri, 3/19/10, Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de wrote: From: Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare? To: Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com Cc: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com, pd-list@iem.at, Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistise...@gmail.com, m...@artengine.ca Date: Friday, March 19, 2010, 6:07 PM On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 09:58 +0100, Marco Donnarumma wrote: Talking about Pd It's fundamental to learn how things works, imho. Pd is the fundament for learning how things work. That was my experience (and still is). Roman What are you getting at? The two aren't mutually exclusive. I am actually thinking that the two are complementary. Of course, it helps a lot to have a certain level of knowledge in dsp/math/whatsover before touching Pd. I just wanted to point out, that Pd very well supports the approach of acquiring theory through practice. Concepts such as, that every sound is composed of its sinusoidal partials (just one example of so many possible), sound very abstract and are hard to explain in words. But at the same time, they are often quite easy to illustrate with Pd (see 07.additive.pd from 3.audio.examples). Of course, it is fundamental to learn how things works, but how do you learn those things? My answer is: By using Pd. Similar to how a two year old child learns the basic laws of physics by letting things fall down, throw them away, put them on other things etc, Pd lets you explore the nature of sound. I often feel the need of telling potential Pd users, that it's not necessary to have read many books and be a master in math before doing Pd, but if they do read books, it helps a lot to try things out in Pd right away. Btw, it was great to hear about eleven year olds working with Pd. I wished I would have known a tool like Pd, when I was at that age, especially in math class. Not that I had extraordinary difficulties in understanding the matter, but it would have been so much more interesting with a lot of formulas being translated to Pd. There is a _huge_ didactic difference between a written representation of a formula and Pd-patch representation with sliders and numberboxes. Roman ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?
--- On Fri, 3/19/10, Frank Barknecht f...@footils.org wrote: From: Frank Barknecht f...@footils.org Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare? To: pd-list@iem.at Date: Friday, March 19, 2010, 7:08 PM Hallo, Pierre Massat hat gesagt: // Pierre Massat wrote: Another thing that'd be nice to make available for new users would be a comprehensive set of generic patches, which would cover the whole range of DSP audio. A little bit like Puckette's audio help patches, only on a higher level (stuff like a basic drum machine, a comprehensive synth, granular synthesis, etc). I know that these aren't impossible to find, but it'd be nice to have it all in the same place. The rj library developed for the creation of RjDj scenes, but also usable outside, tries exactly that. It is all abstractions, all run on Pd vanilla, no externals, not complicated -path setup needed, it has IMO pretty good help files (I wrote most, so I have to say this) and it provides a lot of everyday musician's tools plus some analysis and composition helpers. It's deliberatly minimal, so that it doesn't overwhelm a newbie user with hundreds of objects. It's philosophy is often-needed batteries included. For example, from [list]-abs it has a listmap, listdrip, listreduce, listfilter, listrandom and listnth, but not the other 50 or so list objects. The included objects will solve about 80% of your everyday list-use, for the rest, you can still resort to the full [list]-abs objects. Similar approaches have been taken for other areas. So far it has proven to be a successful base for many interesting music pieces written in Pd for RjDj. Check out trac.rjdj.me for details. Ciao -- Frank I'd just add that one could start from the end of 3.audio.examples and 4.data.structures to get a decent overall idea of what Pd is capable of doing. The only problem with this currently is that those patches are quite understandably not the most beginner-friendly ones-- something like doc/4.data.structures/14.partialtracer.pd probably looks fairly intimidating to a beginner. But if it were organized a little and given some friendly controls (plus maybe a feature to write the re-edited tracks to a .wav file) there's no reason a beginner couldn't start there and other places to get some pretty interesting sounds out of the computer. -Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
--- On Fri, 3/19/10, Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de wrote: From: Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare? To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com, pd-list@iem.at, Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistise...@gmail.com, m...@artengine.ca Date: Friday, March 19, 2010, 8:11 PM On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 11:02 -0700, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: --- On Fri, 3/19/10, Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de wrote: From: Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare? To: Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com Cc: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com, pd-list@iem.at, Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistise...@gmail.com, m...@artengine.ca Date: Friday, March 19, 2010, 6:07 PM On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 09:58 +0100, Marco Donnarumma wrote: Talking about Pd It's fundamental to learn how things works, imho. Pd is the fundament for learning how things work. That was my experience (and still is). Roman What are you getting at? The two aren't mutually exclusive. I am actually thinking that the two are complementary. Of course, it helps a lot to have a certain level of knowledge in dsp/math/whatsover before touching Pd. I just wanted to point out, that Pd very well supports the approach of acquiring theory through practice. Concepts such as, that every sound is composed of its sinusoidal partials (just one example of so many possible), sound very abstract and are hard to explain in words. But at the same time, they are often quite easy to illustrate with Pd (see 07.additive.pd from 3.audio.examples). Of course, it is fundamental to learn how things works, but how do you learn those things? My answer is: By using Pd. Similar to how a two year old child learns the basic laws of physics by letting things fall down, throw them away, put them on other things etc, Pd lets you explore the nature of sound. I often feel the need of telling potential Pd users, that it's not necessary to have read many books and be a master in math before doing Pd, but if they do read books, it helps a lot to try things out in Pd right away. I see. I took Marco's statement to mean that talking about Pd is fundamental to learning how things work in Pd. It sounds like you're saying that you don't have to have a comprehensive knowledge of how dsp works before diving into Pd because using Pd is a way of aquiring that knowledge. I agree with both. -Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
I do think that a big snag in the learning curve for some people is the initial provision of only very basic building blocks. You pretty much have to download Pd and then get Miller's book (what I did) or FLOSS Manual/Andy Farnell's etc. (God I really want Andy's book! Broke atm!) and then devote a good few hours into getting off the ground. What should really be implemented (I've seen some screenshots for the next release yes??) is the right-click style access to a menu organised into say, primitive objects, medium and high-level abstractions. Initial users, say the casual VST synth Mike or Michelle, just want to... 1. Crack open a subractive synth. Play it. (High level). 2. Then dismantle it, see how it works and maybe make their own modular noise spewers from pre-formed building blocks. (Medium level). 3. Build their own building blocks to suit their own desire/dream/whim etc. (Low level) Which is what Reaktor has. (Does the newer bubbly Max have that too?). So I can see the original poster's point. Don't get me wrong, I love Pd (I'm here aren't I??!). But I also can't wait for it to evolve into a more user friendly and intuitive program (not at the expense of it's simplicity though!). There'll be more of us here then. Or do we want to be like the Fixed-gear Cyclists? All exclusive and haircutty??! Well, I was using Pure Data wy before it could emit a speaker beep... John. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
Hi I have been 2010/3/18 pd-list-requ...@iem.at Send Pd-list mailing list submissions to pd-list@iem.at To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to pd-list-requ...@iem.at You can reach the person managing the list at pd-list-ow...@iem.at When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Pd-list digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare? (Jonathan Wilkes) 2. Re: video of Pd Workshop for 11 year olds (errordevelo...@gmail.com) 3. Re: mp3cast~ on ubuntu 9.10 crash pd (IOhannes m zmoelnig) 4. Re: video of Pd Workshop for 11 year olds (Lorenzo) 5. Re: video of Pd Workshop for 11 year olds (Andrew Faraday) 6. Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare? (saint) 7. Re: video of Pd Workshop for 11 year olds (Pedro Oliveira) -- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:26:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare? To: quietdi...@gmail.com, Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: 376196.72041...@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- On Wed, 3/17/10, Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com wrote: From: Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare? To: quietdi...@gmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Wednesday, March 17, 2010, 11:16 AM As many other said before, I personally think there is nothing to compare. All of them are quite separate environments, and i mean not only computing capabilities, flexibility and GUI, but above all each community supporting the projects. this is not better than that, it's only about what fit best your needs. So first point out which are exactly your needs. Learning Pd can be difficult and exhausting in the beg, but once you get familiar with it, I can assure you it's only pleasure. And there is a world of things you can't do with any other software. But you have to find out what. Hi Marco, What do you think makes learning Pd difficult and exhausting in the beginning? Is it just a general learning curve, or are there speficic issues you think could be improved for the future? -Jonathan -- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:38:37 + From: errordevelo...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] video of Pd Workshop for 11 year olds To: pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: 20100318043837.gb10...@00110101.home Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hans, that's excellent! i was quite curious how kids could react to pd .. hm ..i'd love to do some pd tutorials one day, and yeah i was thinking about kids as well! the only thing is that i couldn't check the video - i still don't have sound working in flash with my soundcard setup ;( may be you have the video somewhere else? abby/cclive doesn't support blip.tv and i tried videosnag.com ..but it didn't do anything .. On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 01:56:00PM -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: Here's a video of a Pd workshop I taught with 11 year old kids in New York. It was amazing how they picked it up and had so little fear to experiment: http://eyebeam.org/press/media/videos/an-introduction-to-electronic-soundscape-design .hc Looking at things from a more basic level, you can come up with a more direct solution... It may sound small in theory, but it in practice, it can change entire economies. - Amy Smith ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:22:05 +0100 From: IOhannes m zmoelnig zmoel...@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] mp3cast~ on ubuntu 9.10 crash pd To: Nicolas Montgermont nicolas_montgerm...@yahoo.fr Cc: pd-list pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: 4ba1e2ad.8060...@iem.at Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 On 2010-03-17 20:53, Nicolas Montgermont wrote: I tried to compile it from the svn. I manage to build the pd_linux (removing the -Werror flag) but the object is still crashing pd when connecting to the server... here is the log of the compilation, does anyone got an idea? thanks in advance: could you try to produce a run it in a debugger (gdb), and broduce a backtrace, like: $ gdb pd -stderr mp3cast~-test.pd (gdb) run ... (gdb) backtrace ... fgmasdr IOhannes -- next part -- A non-text attachment
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
Sorry for previous mistake. I feel concerned because i have been using all of these softwares. It all started with Reaktor, which is clearly music-oriented (though some people are able to make video games on it !). I had a lot of fun and headaches. It was a good introduction to modular-environment. Great for synth / fx / buffer things. It can be used as a VST but has no video support. And i think making math in Reaktor is not very handy. Now I can't use it anymore. Pd seems more 'austere' at first looking but also it shows the basics you need to know in order to go on. I think it brings to a better understanding of how things work, at least for me. And it's cross-platform, free and quite stable. And people answer you quickly. And it's the sexiest :) I personally REALLY got into it while having a specific thing to accomplish. At the beginning, learning it was difficult and blurry. It seems you can do A LOT indeed. In my own opinion. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?
Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com wrote: I personally think there is nothing to compare. All of them are quite separate environments, and i mean not only computing capabilities, flexibility and GUI, but above all each community supporting the projects. Well I think Max and PD _are_ quite comparable; their domains do overlap quite a lot, though of course they are not identical. And though it is absurd to state that one is plainly better than the other, it _is_ reasonable to discuss in which aspects one is better and in which others the other is. Especially for the sake of improving PD until it _is_ just plainly better :)) Then the answer to the original question (i.e. the subject) is: Pd rules, all the others just suck - just kidding here. By the way I once collaborated with a guy who composes electroacustic music and now is doing a Ph.D. at Harvard University (I made some Pd patches for a piece he wrote), and he was fond of Pd, preferring it over Max mainly because it is Open Source etc. So when he went to Harvard and everybody there uses Max, he still was willing to keep using Pd and keep learning Pd. At the end, he told me he decided to give up and start using Max; and not because everybody does (this guy generally is not scared of being on his own) but because of documentation. He said: with Max you just download tutorials, manuals and the like and you just have to study and you learn; with Pd it is not so. He often felt stuck and/or frustrated. I don't think Max is easier to learn than Pd; i really think they are equally difficult (or equally easy) to learn (though this is more a guess than an opinion, since I don't know Max enough). But this doesn't seem to be a unique case: I heard quite a lot of people saying they find it easier to learn Max. So I think it is a matter of documentation. Though it may be as well a matter of personal taste (just the look and feel of an application may make you feel more or less confortable). -- Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistise...@gmail.com http://www.matteosistisette.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?
By the way I once collaborated with a guy who composes electroacustic music and now is doing a Ph.D. at Harvard University (I made some Pd patches for a piece he wrote) i hope you got paid. because he certainly is. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?
hard off escribió: i hope you got paid. because he certainly is. Yes indeed he did pay me. On an earlier occasion, in which he wasn't paid at all (before he entered at Harvard), he also paid me. He is a very nice guy :) -- Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistise...@gmail.com http://www.matteosistisette.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
Hi Jonathan, I think it can be, of course it is not for everybody. it was for me too :9 However, as somebody already answered, few things could improve the beg phase of a learning curve. The plugin introduced in Pd 0.43 which shows a category dropdown menu which can be used to recall objects in a easier way and _above all_ without knowing about their existence could be one of those enhancement. Also I wonder about a stronger background color difference among few objects (i.e. a different color for [inlet]/[outlet], [send]/[receive], or tilde objects). And probably more recent embedded tutorials to get started (and I feel ashamed I still didn't contribute, many thanks to all the people who already did it). Anyway learning Pd is _not_ easy and it doesn't have to be. Hence the learning curve and learning tools could be improved, but you still should be aware that if you want to be able to master such a flexible computing capability you need to get your hands (and mind) dirty. I think it's worth, and I wouldn't like it to be easier. Studying and Teaching I found Pd can operate kind of natural selection that sometimes is needed in some context. On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 3:26 AM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: --- On Wed, 3/17/10, Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com wrote: From: Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare? To: quietdi...@gmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Wednesday, March 17, 2010, 11:16 AM As many other said before, I personally think there is nothing to compare. All of them are quite separate environments, and i mean not only computing capabilities, flexibility and GUI, but above all each community supporting the projects. this is not better than that, it's only about what fit best your needs. So first point out which are exactly your needs. Learning Pd can be difficult and exhausting in the beg, but once you get familiar with it, I can assure you it's only pleasure. And there is a world of things you can't do with any other software. But you have to find out what. Hi Marco, What do you think makes learning Pd difficult and exhausting in the beginning? Is it just a general learning curve, or are there speficic issues you think could be improved for the future? -Jonathan -- Marco Donnarumma aka TheSAD Independent New Media Arts Professional, Performer, Teacher - Edinburgh, UK PORTFOLIO: http://marcodonnarumma.com LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flxer.net EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?
Marco Donnarumma escribió: Well, what is reasonable is quite subjective though. You have a point :) Anyway I referred to a global comparison, as you said the (_computing_) domain of both do overlap, but I specified the importance that IMHO the community supporting the project has. I personally don't think the community approach of Max is comparable to Pd. I agree here. Well, I don't know if I agree that they are not comparable, I agree they are hugely different. But yes, when you need to chose between two comparable software, the kind of community surrounding them is a factor you have to take into account, and indeed, neither kind of community is better, it is just a matter of which one best suit your needs (i.e.: you prefer a company that sells the software and that can give you support for a fee, or that you can expect support from since you paid the software, or you may prefer an open source community where thanks to open source fixes and solutions are often quickly available).. so it's like you said reading documentation is not the only way to learn something. Again, the way you look for knowledge depends just on your personal approach. Yes of course; I was just pointing out a particular aspect, that is documentation (in a somewhat wide sense though: documentation proper i.e. manual; help patches; tutorials...) (anyway there is plenty of documentation about Pd, Yeah, it is not a matter of quantity ;) But however, I am a fan of Pd, don't make me feel like I am on the opposite side :) -- Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistise...@gmail.com http://www.matteosistisette.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 6:02 AM, saint sainti...@yahoo.com wrote: But I also can't wait for it to evolve into a more user friendly and intuitive program (not at the expense of it's simplicity though!). Is that an oxymoron? Well, I was using Pure Data wy before it could emit a speaker beep... I was using Pd on PPC linux wy before it was big-endian friendly and the beeps from the speakers were harsh and loud :) -- ./MiS 514-344-0726 http://www.creazone.ca ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?
Hi all, I only know Pd and i've been using it for only a year and a half, so i don't have anything interesting at all concerning the comparison with other softwares. But since many of you have been discussing Pd's documentation, i'd like to share my own experience and point to something Pd-newbies my like. Although i wouldn't say that Pd is easy to learn, i believe that anybody who has a fairly precise idea of what he wants to achieve with Pd can get a satisfying result within a couple of months, provided that he reads the first chapters of Miller Puckette's book and that he asks for help on either the Pd forum or the pd-list. Yet there are two points regarding the documentation which could be improved in my opinion. One is the documentation of the Extra objects of Pd-extended. It seems to like the help browser was designed at a time when there were very little externals. The vanilla help is well organized and easily accessible, but such is not the case for the massive bulk of externals, and this is a pity because i keep finding wonderful new objects everyday. A way of fixing this would be maybe to update the list of objects on Floss more frequently as well as revamping the structure of the Pd's help completely (don't know how easy or even feasible this would be though?). Another thing that'd be nice to make available for new users would be a comprehensive set of generic patches, which would cover the whole range of DSP audio. A little bit like Puckette's audio help patches, only on a higher level (stuff like a basic drum machine, a comprehensive synth, granular synthesis, etc). I know that these aren't impossible to find, but it'd be nice to have it all in the same place. I'm saying this because i've found myself re-inventing the wheel more often than not, and it is always a bit frustrating to find out that somebody did the same thing you've been working on for weeks long time ago, and way better than you. This happened to me again a few days ago about spectral delay. Basically what a new user would need (well, at least what'd need) is a set of patches that tells him Ok, you've seen all these commercial softwares (editors, sequencers, soft synths, vst plugins,etc.), well here's what's in their guts, and here's the basic stuff one can do with a computer in 2010. This in my view would be a great help and would boost Pd user's creativity a great deal, because they wouldn't have to re-invent (almost) everything from scratch, and they'd learn very quickly what is new and what is not. This is especially true for people who learned Pd by themselves, without taking any classes about audio programming and digital music theory. Anyway, the more i use it, the more i like it. Sometimes i wonder what Pd will be like 10 years from now. Whatever it'll be i'm excited! Cheers! Pierre 2010/3/18 Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistise...@gmail.com Marco Donnarumma escribió: Well, what is reasonable is quite subjective though. You have a point :) Anyway I referred to a global comparison, as you said the (_computing_) domain of both do overlap, but I specified the importance that IMHO the community supporting the project has. I personally don't think the community approach of Max is comparable to Pd. I agree here. Well, I don't know if I agree that they are not comparable, I agree they are hugely different. But yes, when you need to chose between two comparable software, the kind of community surrounding them is a factor you have to take into account, and indeed, neither kind of community is better, it is just a matter of which one best suit your needs (i.e.: you prefer a company that sells the software and that can give you support for a fee, or that you can expect support from since you paid the software, or you may prefer an open source community where thanks to open source fixes and solutions are often quickly available).. so it's like you said reading documentation is not the only way to learn something. Again, the way you look for knowledge depends just on your personal approach. Yes of course; I was just pointing out a particular aspect, that is documentation (in a somewhat wide sense though: documentation proper i.e. manual; help patches; tutorials...) (anyway there is plenty of documentation about Pd, Yeah, it is not a matter of quantity ;) But however, I am a fan of Pd, don't make me feel like I am on the opposite side :) -- Matteo Sisti Sette matteosistise...@gmail.com http://www.matteosistisette.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
--- On Thu, 3/18/10, Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com wrote: From: Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare? To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: quietdi...@gmail.com, pd-list@iem.at Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 6:38 PM Hi Jonathan, I think it can be, of course it is not for everybody. it was for me too :9 However, as somebody already answered, few things could improve the beg phase of a learning curve. The plugin introduced in Pd 0.43 which shows a category dropdown menu which can be used to recall objects in a easier way and _above all_ without knowing about their existence could be one of those enhancement. Also I wonder about a stronger background color difference among few objects (i.e. a different color for [inlet]/[outlet], [send]/[receive], or tilde objects). And probably more recent embedded tutorials to get started (and I feel ashamed I still didn't contribute, many thanks to all the people who already did it). I'm almost finished revising the docs: 2.control.examples, 3.audio.examples, 4.data.structures, and 5.reference. I'll post them to the list when I'm done (should be shortly). Anyway learning Pd is _not_ easy and it doesn't have to be. Hence the learning curve and learning tools could be improved, but you still should be aware that if you want to be able to master such a flexible computing capability you need to get your hands (and mind) dirty. I think it's worth, and I wouldn't like it to be easier. I disagree-- I would like it to be easier, and it should be easier. More time spent trying to figure out how dollarsym atoms get expanded is less time spent making music. The last paragraph of Pd Manual 2.6.5 doesn't reflect the current state of Pd, btw. Do items like that belong on the bug tracker? Studying and Teaching I found Pd can operate kind of natural selection that sometimes is needed in some context. By that logic there should be even less documentation (or more outdated/ erroneous docs). But what are the characteristics that make students fit enough to avoid death and reproduce themselves into the next generation of the Pd learning environment? As far as I can tell, Pd crashes will remain Pd crashes, regardless of whether the output isn't boring, so I don't think I understand what you mean. On a related note, a [sculch-gate~] object would be cool. (sculch = junk) -Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?
Hi Pierre, You raise some interesting questions. I teach pd occasionally or just help newbies to get their feet wet, get off the ground or simply help with some specific projects. I will address some of the issues you raise below but note that my comments are not exhaustive nor definitive: On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Pierre Massat pimas...@gmail.com wrote: One is the documentation of the Extra objects of Pd-extended. It seems to like the help browser was designed at a time when there were very little externals. The vanilla help is well organized and easily accessible, but such is not the case for the massive bulk of externals, and this is a pity because i keep finding wonderful new objects everyday. I think this needs a little clarification. While I concur that there are some undocumented objects, I think that you are talking about the problem of finding a suitable object for a particular task. Right? This was party addressed in the antique version of pddp (pd documentation project), where help patches would also include hints about objects that are related in some way (protocol, functionality, alternatives etc). I guess this practice was inspired by the MaxMSP documentation. Although such practice, if done diligently, would be very useful, it is at the same time futile as someone would have to go through loads of help patches to add similar objects that are being created constantly. Yes, this could be automated via scripts but then someone would need to add this information to scripts or a database of sorts. Maintenance. A way of fixing this would be maybe to update the list of objects on Floss more frequently as well as revamping the structure of the Pd's help completely (don't know how easy or even feasible this would be though?). I think that pdpedia (http://wiki.puredata.info) tried to address this issue. Recently someone suggested to get rid of it because it was not being used much. Perhaps it was not advertised enough and the resulting slim user-base did not provide much motivation to maintainers. Pdpedia addresses also (in some ways) you earlier point, that of finding *about* classes. Type oscillator for instance and you get hundreds of results, some pointing to various sound generators that actually fall into the category of oscillators. I think pdpedia is a great idea and is a potential spot for gathering info about as many externs as possible. Once again, the problem is in maintenance (this is why someone wanted to shut it down) because we all know that developers don't want to write documentation and we, users, composers, video artists, installation artists, students, lurkers and everyone else do not want to do it because we do not understand the developers and, in any case, we don't have time because we have deadlines in whatever we do. Right? Right. I am guilty of that, too. [snip... sorry] I'm saying this because i've found myself re-inventing the wheel more often than not, and it is always a bit frustrating to find out that somebody did the same thing you've been working on for weeks long time ago, and way better than you. Well, this is where google and pure-data.info comes in handy. Search the archives, search the forums. It is very likely that if you are trying to do something that is more or less standard practice (chorus, spectral delay, granular synth) someone already did it. Probably more than one person, even, and implementations vary wildly. Basically what a new user would need (well, at least what'd need) is a set of patches that tells him Ok, you've seen all these commercial softwares (editors, sequencers, soft synths, vst plugins,etc.), well here's what's in their guts, and here's the basic stuff one can do with a computer in 2010. I don't really agree with that. This is how bloat is created. And I must quote matju here: Ready-made solutions are for ready-made problems. For everything else there is Pure data. Remember that Pd is a programming language and you cannot provide all possible solutions to everyone's taste. What I see a lot these days is that the attitude towards computing is slowly changing, especially in digital arts. A lot of people are trying to get away from read-made solutions and they are actually getting closer to the machine. They pick up MaxMSP, Pd, Python, C++, Java, Processing, Arduino and many other tools and they learn how to do stuff that the software market is not able to provide. Computers are more and more accessible to people, much cheaper than 15-20 years ago, more powerful, too, and I think that a very valid way to be creative with a computer is to learn how to speak its language. It is not for everyone though and it doesn't have to be. If I am not interested in solving problems algorithmically through programming, I will not use Pd but some other software that will help me accomplish my goals via some other means that I can understand better. This in my view would be a great help
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
Hi Didit, Sorry for long post.. but the topic is ever so fascinating :) Sorry for bringing this old thread up, I find Alex's opinion very interesting. Actually I kinda feel that using Pd, I'm stuck in the process of making the instrument instead of the music kinda situation. I guess this comes up frequently in 'computer-based' music discussions. I think it depends much on the type of music/artistic project/vision you have... I find making the instrument for the music extremely fascinating and much related with the musician's nature... I recently found an article (unfortunately it's not publicly available online but it's on Jstor music) of 1980 by Gareth Loy with the title 'The Composer Seduced into Programming' which I guess is pretty explicative as a title per se. I will only cite a small piece from the beginning of the article where he is explaining the title which I feel pretty close to: It is important to note just what the seducing agent in these cases really is. It is certainly not carpentry or programming, or we would have ceased as artists and become tradesmen. It is really the will of the composer, expressed through the discipline of the art form itself which, in all cases, not just the ones under discussion here, causes the artist to stray into these seemingly distant fields. Even though at first, I can custom made an instrument specific to what I want, I ended up exhausted at building the instrument first, and find myself resting for several moments before finally finishing a composition. It can be an exhausting activity, yes.. But so is(was) preparing a performance-ready score for 'traditional' music right? I recently tried Reaktor, and one thing that's best is the interface, that features definitely makes me interested in learning deeper into this tool. I also tried Max/MSP, and yes I love the interface, kinda more engaging to patch things. I also recently acquired Launchpad, (with all the monome emulations build using Max/MSP, I become slowly adapt to it). But either way, I kinda stuck with Pd because this is the first audiovisual environment programming that I know and dig. So, I think, probably it will all go down to which tool we are comfort with (ugh, sounds so diplomatic, hate it). But anyway, I feel that Max/MSP produce a smoother audio than Pd, is it me or does anyone feel this too? I guess everyone should use the tools that work best.. although I'm not sure what you mean thtat the audio in MAX is 'smoother'. My two cents: I started with Max and then switched to Pd. Eventually I found that although initially a little 'harder' Pd, because of the much less frills than Max, especially Max 5, and is much 'lower level', helps you maintain focus (for example no hiding mechanism means that when a patch is too full it's probably time to modularise.. in max you often end up with hidden spaghetti :).. and at the same time experiment in much more unplanned directions. But this is my very personal view. Regards, Didit All the best, Lorenzo. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
the last i read about the [vst] object in Pd was that is was generally defective (can anyone confirm or correct this?). Jeffrey, do you know where you read this? I would certainly be interested to hear about bug reports. thanks, Thomas ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
--- On Wed, 3/17/10, Lorenzo lsut...@libero.it wrote: From: Lorenzo lsut...@libero.it Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare? To: pd-list@iem.at Date: Wednesday, March 17, 2010, 9:03 AM [...] I guess this comes up frequently in 'computer-based' music discussions. I think it depends much on the type of music/artistic project/vision you have... I find making the instrument for the music extremely fascinating and much related with the musician's nature... I recently found an article (unfortunately it's not publicly available online but it's on Jstor music) of 1980 by Gareth Loy with the title 'The Composer Seduced into Programming' which I guess is pretty explicative as a title per se. I will only cite a small piece from the beginning of the article where he is explaining the title which I feel pretty close to: It is important to note just what the seducing agent in these cases really is. It is certainly not carpentry or programming, or we would have ceased as artists and become tradesmen. It is really the will of the composer, expressed through the discipline of the art form itself which, in all cases, not just the ones under discussion here, causes the artist to stray into these seemingly distant fields. It certainly could be true in all cases, but think about how inclusive the phrase the will of the composer must then be. The preface to Satie's Choral unappetizement comes to mind-- I have put into it all I know about Boredom-- plus many others that unfortunately aren't so tongue and-cheek about it. -Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
As many other said before, I personally think there is nothing to compare. All of them are quite separate environments, and i mean not only computing capabilities, flexibility and GUI, but above all each community supporting the projects. this is not better than that, it's only about what fit best your needs. So first point out which are exactly your needs. Learning Pd can be difficult and exhausting in the beg, but once you get familiar with it, I can assure you it's only pleasure. And there is a world of things you can't do with any other software. But you have to find out what. Of course if you don't want to spend too much time _learning_ that's a different situation. Your needs will tell you. But anyway, I feel that Max/MSP produce a smoother audio than Pd, is it me or does anyone feel this too? mmm, I can't get what you mean here by smoother. Best, M Sorry for bringing this old thread up, I find Alex's opinion very interesting. Actually I kinda feel that using Pd, I'm stuck in the process of making the instrument instead of the music kinda situation.Even though at first, I can custom made an instrument specific to what I want, I ended up exhausted at building the instrument first, and find myself resting for several moments before finally finishing a composition. I recently tried Reaktor, and one thing that's best is the interface, that features definitely makes me interested in learning deeper into this tool. I also tried Max/MSP, and yes I love the interface, kinda more engaging to patch things. I also recently acquired Launchpad, (with all the monome emulations build using Max/MSP, I become slowly adapt to it). But either way, I kinda stuck with Pd because this is the first audiovisual environment programming that I know and dig. So, I think, probably it will all go down to which tool we are comfort with (ugh, sounds so diplomatic, hate it). But anyway, I feel that Max/MSP produce a smoother audio than Pd, is it me or does anyone feel this too? Regards, Didit -- Marco Donnarumma aka TheSAD Independent New Media Arts Professional, Performer, Teacher - Edinburgh, UK PORTFOLIO: http://marcodonnarumma.com LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flxer.net EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
mmm, I can't get what you mean here by smoother. Best, M Ah, by saying smoother, I feel that Pd produce a more harsh noise. I can here a little bit of click on my windows. While on my Mac,when using mlr application (a sampler for monome) the Pd and the Max version, I also feel that Pd produce a more harsh noise of the playback sample, a little bit of clicking sound. Hope that clear everybody's understanding :) Regards, Didit ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
ciao Gareth Loy with the title 'The Composer Seduced into Programming' It is important to note just what the seducing agent in these cases really is. It is certainly not carpentry or programming, or we would have ceased as artists and become tradesmen. It is really the will of the composer, expressed through the discipline of the art form itself which, in all cases, not just the ones under discussion here, causes the artist to stray into these seemingly distant fields. i find it beneficial to try and make explicit assumptions, in persuasive writing or music composing. what is the difference between artists and tradesmen? are either more valuable than the other? [try getting to work in a contrapuntal study] 'the will of the composer' that's a very evocative phrase what about zen composers? [john cage] what kind of will do they have? i am suspect of self importance. i think learning how to use something [a digital audio environment, pen and paper musical notation, ...] will enrich a person. it's all connected. a person has to make choices on how to spend their time. are they good choices or bad ones? it is not for me to say. i think spending time learning dsp or any tools is worthwhile. as i said above, i find it enriching. also, we are not machines. it is ok to have multiple interests [it means you are just more engaged in the world around you]. it is ok to fail. it is part of what makes us human [and not machine]. nonetheless, machines can be very helpful. -- \js :-P ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 1:58 PM, john saylor js0...@gmail.com wrote: ciao Gareth Loy with the title 'The Composer Seduced into Programming' It is important to note just what the seducing agent in these cases really is. It is certainly not carpentry or programming, or we would have ceased as artists and become tradesmen. It is really the will of the composer, expressed through the discipline of the art form itself which, in all cases, not just the ones under discussion here, causes the artist to stray into these seemingly distant fields. i find it beneficial to try and make explicit assumptions, in persuasive writing or music composing. what is the difference between artists and tradesmen? are either more valuable than the other? [try getting to work in a contrapuntal study] 'the will of the composer' that's a very evocative phrase what about zen composers? [john cage] what kind of will do they have? i am suspect of self importance. i think learning how to use something [a digital audio environment, pen and paper musical notation, ...] will enrich a person. it's all connected. a person has to make choices on how to spend their time. are they good choices or bad ones? it is not for me to say. i think spending time learning dsp or any tools is worthwhile. as i said above, i find it enriching. also, we are not machines. it is ok to have multiple interests [it means you are just more engaged in the world around you]. it is ok to fail. it is part of what makes us human [and not machine]. nonetheless, machines can be very helpful. Just to bring it back down to my simple level ;o) indeed, many things can enrich a person's/musician's life: some programming, a hike in the forest, even a lucky car crash! But making your own instrument has a more direct advantage: you will know your instument better. While you're playing it, you'll know more about what's happening inside it, and that will certainly add something important to your music. Remember, ancient people used to make their instruments, sometimes taking a lot of time. Actually, whatever i'm operating, i find it an advantage to know how it works inside, and an ultimate advantage to operate my own creation. 2 cents, Andras ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
2010/3/17 András Murányi muran...@gmail.com Remember, ancient people used to make their instruments, sometimes taking a lot of time. Actually, whatever i'm operating, i find it an advantage to know how it works inside, and an ultimate advantage to operate my own creation. 2 cents, Andras Gotta agree with that Andras :) I think the key is self contolling e.g: know where to stop build instrument and start make music with it :D -- lunchboxav.wordpress.com -- mataharipertama.wordpress.com kotakmakan.multiply.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
--- On Wed, 3/17/10, Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com wrote: From: Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare? To: quietdi...@gmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Wednesday, March 17, 2010, 11:16 AM As many other said before, I personally think there is nothing to compare. All of them are quite separate environments, and i mean not only computing capabilities, flexibility and GUI, but above all each community supporting the projects. this is not better than that, it's only about what fit best your needs. So first point out which are exactly your needs. Learning Pd can be difficult and exhausting in the beg, but once you get familiar with it, I can assure you it's only pleasure. And there is a world of things you can't do with any other software. But you have to find out what. Hi Marco, What do you think makes learning Pd difficult and exhausting in the beginning? Is it just a general learning curve, or are there speficic issues you think could be improved for the future? -Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
Sorry for bringing this old thread up, I find Alex's opinion very interesting. Actually I kinda feel that using Pd, I'm stuck in the process of making the instrument instead of the music kinda situation.Even though at first, I can custom made an instrument specific to what I want, I ended up exhausted at building the instrument first, and find myself resting for several moments before finally finishing a composition. I recently tried Reaktor, and one thing that's best is the interface, that features definitely makes me interested in learning deeper into this tool. I also tried Max/MSP, and yes I love the interface, kinda more engaging to patch things. I also recently acquired Launchpad, (with all the monome emulations build using Max/MSP, I become slowly adapt to it). But either way, I kinda stuck with Pd because this is the first audiovisual environment programming that I know and dig. So, I think, probably it will all go down to which tool we are comfort with (ugh, sounds so diplomatic, hate it). But anyway, I feel that Max/MSP produce a smoother audio than Pd, is it me or does anyone feel this too? Regards, Didit lunchboxavlab.wordpress.com On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 11:45 PM, Alexandre Porres por...@gmail.com wrote: hi, Here are MY thoughts: As a composer attending composition courses in brazilian universities I was presented with the idea that MAX was professional and stable. and pd experimental and unstable. Another given point is that MAX had some wonderful capabilities that Pd might never, giving the sense that you can only do some sorts of thing in MAX. But that is some load of BS in my opinion (I know you didn't see that coming... shocking, huh?). when it came for me to decide which to study and where to implement my research. It felt logical to go for a free environment, meaning that I'd be able to show results and present knowledge in a free way, and one wouldn't need to buy a software to able to check my study. But this seems more of an issue here in Brazil, as in some places people don't bother with the cash issue, and got MAX everywhere. But in Brazil, most MAX users go for the pirate version, and if you hope for stability, what is the point in that? The CA$H issue is greatly pertinent in this discussion, but it gets deeper than that. The way I see it, and you have put it in your email, is that Pd and MAX are in fact more powerful, and you need quite a knowledge to be able to design stuff. Reaktor and Bidule are easier for that matter. So my point is, it is too important that you really know what you are doing. You need to study DSP for christ's sake, know exactly how FFT works, or even Wavelets! You also need to really work hard and practice it as an instrument to be able to develop patching techniques in Pd or MAX. They are great Do it yourself environments, and now I ask, what is the point of spending a lot here? It seems reasonable for me to pay for other people to do the work for you. If this was cooking, I would pay for a chef to cook for me, and not spend a lot to make the meal myself... At least here in Brazil, I haven't seen people doing great and highly sophisticated MAX patches that would justify it being a more powerful tool. And i dont really use it to know myself whatever there is to it besides the friendlier interface and customer support. And i haven't had trouble not being able to use Pd in my Computer Music projects. I also have the idea that Pd is simpler and more straight to the point, and that MAX is heavier to run and has all sorts of gadgets that are there more to justify the investment, but that end up making it more confusing for me. It gets to a point where is rather paradoxal to me, you have a do it yourself environment trying to be an end-user end oriented tool. Now, Reaktor and Bidule are not that powerful and more straightforward into some direction. This makes them more specific tools and easier to use, and I see now the point of paying for those. they are more headed torwards end-users, and they are kind of cooking for them. Another issue comes to aesthetics. Being a free software community, stuff made in Pd or by Pd people tends to be more anarchic and somewhat standard-free. MAX, on the other hand, seems to be highly inserted into this really specialized niche of the traditional Computer Music environment. After all, it is something that comes from IRCAM, so it is natural that the aesthetic of MAX users usually tend to look as something related to IRCAM's school, and that kind of standard. But then, being a composer dealing with computer music is hard because you need to be both a composer and a computer science guy. The way around is making partnerships, and people in IRCAM actually do partnerships. So, if you are a composer, you need to compose and that is it... you give the computer stuff to a computer guy and let him bother with it in the way he wants. Philippe Manoury is a composer
[PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
From an audio processing perspective... My first introduction to a visual programming environment was Reaktor, then Max, then Pd. Only recently did i find out about plogue bidule. As far as interface goes they seem quite similar, and one obviously must consider that the commercial products have customer support rather than the community effort that is PD (which is great, don't get me wrong) and the user friendliness approach they must have in order to appeal to users. As far as i know, reaktor and plogue bidule have VST capabilities, i believe the last i read about the [vst] object in Pd was that is was generally defective (can anyone confirm or correct this?). Max seems to be the largest and most complex of all (The creators of the Monome http://monome.org/ and OHM64 http://www.lividinstruments.com/hardware_ohm64.php both designed their product with max, although i'm sure it could have been with Pd just the same). correct me if i'm wrong, but i understand that pd and max are the most powerful, although i've yet to build anything that sounds as good as what i was able to make in reaktor, and i have no idea about the sound quality that can be achieved with plogue bidule. your thoughts? jeff -- www.avmachinists.org Puerto Rico based Art Collective/ Non-Profit Org ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 5:54 PM, Jeffrey Concepcion jeffreyconcepc...@gmail.com wrote: From an audio processing perspective... My first introduction to a visual programming environment was Reaktor, then Max, then Pd. Only recently did i find out about plogue bidule. As far as interface goes they seem quite similar, and one obviously must consider that the commercial products have customer support rather than the community effort that is PD (which is great, don't get me wrong) and the user friendliness approach they must have in order to appeal to users. As far as i know, reaktor and plogue bidule have VST capabilities, i believe the last i read about the [vst] object in Pd was that is was generally defective (can anyone confirm or correct this?). Max seems to be the largest and most complex of all (The creators of the Monomehttp://monome.org/and OHM64 http://www.lividinstruments.com/hardware_ohm64.php both designed their product with max, although i'm sure it could have been with Pd just the same). correct me if i'm wrong, but i understand that pd and max are the most powerful, although i've yet to build anything that sounds as good as what i was able to make in reaktor, and i have no idea about the sound quality that can be achieved with plogue bidule. your thoughts? jeff I started with Reaktor too - as far as i remember it was quality-wise secure (means easy to make good sounds, hard to mess up) because really basic elements had been introduced only later, and still not many patches messed with them. Pd imho have been always using smaller, more basic building blocks which always allow for all kinds of glitches. Not an audio issue, but Reaktor does not do midi sysex, that's why i broke up with it. Andras ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
hi, Here are MY thoughts: As a composer attending composition courses in brazilian universities I was presented with the idea that MAX was professional and stable. and pd experimental and unstable. Another given point is that MAX had some wonderful capabilities that Pd might never, giving the sense that you can only do some sorts of thing in MAX. But that is some load of BS in my opinion (I know you didn't see that coming... shocking, huh?). when it came for me to decide which to study and where to implement my research. It felt logical to go for a free environment, meaning that I'd be able to show results and present knowledge in a free way, and one wouldn't need to buy a software to able to check my study. But this seems more of an issue here in Brazil, as in some places people don't bother with the cash issue, and got MAX everywhere. But in Brazil, most MAX users go for the pirate version, and if you hope for stability, what is the point in that? The CA$H issue is greatly pertinent in this discussion, but it gets deeper than that. The way I see it, and you have put it in your email, is that Pd and MAX are in fact more powerful, and you need quite a knowledge to be able to design stuff. Reaktor and Bidule are easier for that matter. So my point is, it is too important that you really know what you are doing. You need to study DSP for christ's sake, know exactly how FFT works, or even Wavelets! You also need to really work hard and practice it as an instrument to be able to develop patching techniques in Pd or MAX. They are great Do it yourself environments, and now I ask, what is the point of spending a lot here? It seems reasonable for me to pay for other people to do the work for you. If this was cooking, I would pay for a chef to cook for me, and not spend a lot to make the meal myself... At least here in Brazil, I haven't seen people doing great and highly sophisticated MAX patches that would justify it being a more powerful tool. And i dont really use it to know myself whatever there is to it besides the friendlier interface and customer support. And i haven't had trouble not being able to use Pd in my Computer Music projects. I also have the idea that Pd is simpler and more straight to the point, and that MAX is heavier to run and has all sorts of gadgets that are there more to justify the investment, but that end up making it more confusing for me. It gets to a point where is rather paradoxal to me, you have a do it yourself environment trying to be an end-user end oriented tool. Now, Reaktor and Bidule are not that powerful and more straightforward into some direction. This makes them more specific tools and easier to use, and I see now the point of paying for those. they are more headed torwards end-users, and they are kind of cooking for them. Another issue comes to aesthetics. Being a free software community, stuff made in Pd or by Pd people tends to be more anarchic and somewhat standard-free. MAX, on the other hand, seems to be highly inserted into this really specialized niche of the traditional Computer Music environment. After all, it is something that comes from IRCAM, so it is natural that the aesthetic of MAX users usually tend to look as something related to IRCAM's school, and that kind of standard. But then, being a composer dealing with computer music is hard because you need to be both a composer and a computer science guy. The way around is making partnerships, and people in IRCAM actually do partnerships. So, if you are a composer, you need to compose and that is it... you give the computer stuff to a computer guy and let him bother with it in the way he wants. Philippe Manoury is a composer that was there when MAX came out, and his pieces are classic MAX computer music pieces from the 80's. Now the same pieces are being done in Pd. You ask, did Philippe change from MAX to Pd? No, not at all. He was working with Miller Puckette in the 80's in IRCAM, and keeps working with Miller to this date in San diego. He is just the composer, and Miller is the computer guy... Miller wrote MAX in the 80's, but now uses Pd which he also wrote himself. Well, thanks for your attention on my thoughts, see you next time. Cheers Alex ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
