Re: GFM and *ist D
In a message dated 4/14/2004 9:31:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes, I will be there. Marnie should be on there also. Bruce --- Right. Will be. Marnie aka Doe
Re: GFM and *ist D
Ann Sanfedele [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm plannng on being in Wimington Del on June 1 then Wash DC at home of famous Scrabble author :) I'm trying to make sense of the phrase famous Scrabble author but I just can't! ;-) -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: GFM and *ist D (now veering OT)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gonz wrote: Awesome! I have a humble but pretty decent collection. My favorites are aging, like some Ch. Montelena from various years (their reserve). Plus I love some of the older Clos du Val. Recent favorites include Ch. St. Jean Cinq Cepage (97 or 98 I believe). rg I do love the Montelenas. Hard to get a bad vintage from that winery. Maybe. But is their recent stuff (the last 3 years, say) worth what they are asking for it? You can get better wines for that amount of money, even at the cheapest (per-case, futures) price. I guess the market is bearing it, so demand must be high enough to support the price. You definitely can get better wines for less, the key is to avoid those wines with high snob ratings from magazines like Wine Spectator or Parker's Wine Advocate. Those magazines are ok to help you avoid a bad wine, but at least Wine Spectator gets paid advertisement from the very wines they rate, so I can't imagine there not being a conflict of interest there. Parker's magazine is probably less biased. rg
RE: GFM and *ist D
On 13/4/04, TV discumbobulated: The point is, it's an honour system through and through. What gain from cheating? First place gets a foot massage from Doug, so the competition gets pretty fierce. Does he do a pedicure with that moustache? Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
RE: GFM and *ist D
On 13/4/04, TANJA BLESS HER discumbobulated: Also, in regards to cheating - what's to stop someone from shooting a whole heap of other slide film on the day, or even bringing slides with them and submitting those to the judges? Judge 1 - This is a nice slide. I particularly like the use of form and composition. Judge 2 - Yes, not bad. Look at the way the water reflects the flora. Judge 1 - It's obvious that a lot of time and effort went into it. Judge 2 - Notice the reflections in the water? Judge 1 - Yes, and look at the exquisite shape of the bridge. The way the sails on the boats cast delicate shadows. Judge 2 - Was this shot in Bear Wallow Spring ? Judge 1 - No. look at that huge white building with the pointy roofs. And all those half naked people running about on the beach - they appear to be cooking something over an open flame. I reckon this was taken right over in the Great Beyond, past Storyteller's Rock - I heard of a native tribe once that inhabits an uncharted slope on the mountain. Judge 2 - They appear to be drinking out of cans. Judge 1 - Hmmm. Judge 2 - First Prize ? Judge 1 - Sounds good to me. Judge 1 - NEXT. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
Re: GFM and *ist D (now veering OT)
On 13/4/04, A JEALOUS GUY discumbobulated: If the camera bag and the PowerBook bag are about to fall into the water and I could save only one, it would be the PowerBook. That's just because it would give you an excuse to get rid of that Canon gear and switch back to Pentax! ;-) LOL. Oh that was below the belt Roberts. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
RE: GFM and *ist D
Cotty wrote: On 13/4/04, TANJA BLESS HER discumbobulated: Oh, yes, please do! (Bless me, I mean!) I am going to need it to put up with this sod for 2 x 7 hour road trips! lol. Judge 1 - This is a nice slide. I particularly like the use of form and composition. Judge 2 - Yes, not bad. Look at the way the water reflects the flora. Judge 1 - It's obvious that a lot of time and effort went into it. Judge 2 - Notice the reflections in the water? Judge 1 - Yes, and look at the exquisite shape of the bridge. The way the sails on the boats cast delicate shadows. Judge 2 - Was this shot in Bear Wallow Spring ? Judge 1 - No. look at that huge white building with the pointy roofs. And all those half naked people running about on the beach - they appear to be cooking something over an open flame. I reckon this was taken right over in the Great Beyond, past Storyteller's Rock - I heard of a native tribe once that inhabits an uncharted slope on the mountain. Judge 2 - They appear to be drinking out of cans. Judge 1 - Hmmm. Judge 2 - First Prize ? Judge 1 - Sounds good to me. Judge 1 - NEXT. Omg, you are totally nutts Cotty, you'd think you were, like a Canon user or something the way that you think! bwahahahahahaha tan.
Re: GFM and *ist D
Nah, since Tom makes the trip in 5 hours, you will be too frightened to pay any attention. GRIN -- Tanya Mayer Photography wrote: Oh, yes, please do! (Bless me, I mean!) I am going to need it to put up with this sod for 2 x 7 hour road trips! lol. -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com/graywolf.html
RE: GFM and *ist D
lol! I fear you may be correct there Graywolf! *eek*, I'm shakin' in my boots, what HAVE I got myself in for?!!? vbg BTW, I would really like it if anybody has one, if they could email me the full list of PDML'ers who will be attending GFM - both those who have registered and those who haven't. That would be just dandy! TIA... tan. -Original Message- From: graywolf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 14 April 2004 11:54 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: GFM and *ist D Nah, since Tom makes the trip in 5 hours, you will be too frightened to pay any attention. GRIN -- Tanya Mayer Photography wrote: Oh, yes, please do! (Bless me, I mean!) I am going to need it to put up with this sod for 2 x 7 hour road trips! lol. -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com/graywolf.html
Re: GFM and *ist D
Here's another suggestion (for next year) Why not run 3 digital categories? Point and shoot no manipulation, DSLR no manipulation, and manipulated. Each category gets 3 entries per person, their card gets downloaded and burned to CD then the CD(s) get judged. Have everybody shoot JPEG highest quality. You still will have some problems with this system. Those with Adobe 1998 color space will have an advantage over those with only sRGB and cameras that sharpen heavily may have an advantage over those that don't sharpen as much. (*ist-D at a disadvantage?) You still would have to rely on the honor system but there would be less temptation to cheat if there is a category for them. My 2 Butch Each man had only one genuine vocation - to find the way to himself. Hermann Hesse (Demian)
Re: GFM and *ist D
1350 entries would be impossible to judge in the time allotted. Bill - Original Message - From: Butch Black [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 11:08 AM Subject: Re: GFM and *ist D Here's another suggestion (for next year) Why not run 3 digital categories? Point and shoot no manipulation, DSLR no manipulation, and manipulated. Each category gets 3 entries per person, their card gets downloaded and burned to CD then the CD(s) get judged. Have everybody shoot JPEG highest quality. You still will have some problems with this system. Those with Adobe 1998 color space will have an advantage over those with only sRGB and cameras that sharpen heavily may have an advantage over those that don't sharpen as much. (*ist-D at a disadvantage?) You still would have to rely on the honor system but there would be less temptation to cheat if there is a category for them. My 2 Butch Each man had only one genuine vocation - to find the way to himself. Hermann Hesse (Demian)
Re: GFM and *ist D
Tanya Mayer Photography wrote: BTW, I would really like it if anybody has one, if they could email me the full list of PDML'ers who will be attending GFM - both those who have registered and those who haven't. That would be just dandy! TIA... tan. I second that! also, who is going to be in New York before the trip - though I probably won't have any time to see anyone then _ I'll be running around like mad just to get away annsan
Re: GFM and *ist D (now veering OT)
Awesome! I have a humble but pretty decent collection. My favorites are aging, like some Ch. Montelena from various years (their reserve). Plus I love some of the older Clos du Val. Recent favorites include Ch. St. Jean Cinq Cepage (97 or 98 I believe). rg Keith Whaley wrote: Gonz wrote: William Robb wrote: A good Cotes du Rhone is just about the nicest thing that can be made from a grape. If that were strictly true, of course, there would be no other styles sold! But some of us still prefer Cabs and Bordeaux style blends. :) rg Right! I saved for, opened and drank an '86 Sterling Cab, that was perfection itself! I couldn't imagine anything tasting smoother or richer. So, to each his own... keith whaley
Re: GFM and *ist D (now veering OT)
Gonz wrote: Awesome! I have a humble but pretty decent collection. My favorites are aging, like some Ch. Montelena from various years (their reserve). Plus I love some of the older Clos du Val. Recent favorites include Ch. St. Jean Cinq Cepage (97 or 98 I believe). rg I do love the Montelenas. Hard to get a bad vintage from that winery. For my 4-years-ago b'day (a small milestone) my daughter gave me a bottle of 1961 Ch. Meyney Prieure des Couleys, Cordier Bordeaux. While it was definitely past it's prime (you never know until you open it) it was still quite drinkable and showed hints of it's previous character... keith
Re: GFM and *ist D (now veering OT)
Gonz wrote: Awesome! I have a humble but pretty decent collection. My favorites are aging, like some Ch. Montelena from various years (their reserve). Plus I love some of the older Clos du Val. Recent favorites include Ch. St. Jean Cinq Cepage (97 or 98 I believe). rg I do love the Montelenas. Hard to get a bad vintage from that winery. Maybe. But is their recent stuff (the last 3 years, say) worth what they are asking for it? You can get better wines for that amount of money, even at the cheapest (per-case, futures) price.
Re: GFM and *ist D
Tanya Mayer Photography wrote: Ann, I am *planning* on being in NYC around the 1-2 June, but can't say for sure at this stage. Ah well,actually, I'm plannng on being in Wimington Del on June 1 then Wash DC at home of famous Scrabble author :) then somewhere between there and GFM on the 3rd I'll definitely keep you posted though! Hehehe, fancy tackling the mosh pit at an Offspring concert with me? lol. tan. Oh right, just my thing ! ;) What is an Offspring? ann the conservative radical -Original Message- From: Ann Sanfedele [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 15 April 2004 1:21 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: GFM and *ist D Tanya Mayer Photography wrote: BTW, I would really like it if anybody has one, if they could email me the full list of PDML'ers who will be attending GFM - both those who have registered and those who haven't. That would be just dandy! TIA... tan. I second that! also, who is going to be in New York before the trip - though I probably won't have any time to see anyone then _ I'll be running around like mad just to get away annsan
Re: GFM and *ist D (now WIDELY OT)
I'm taking this offline. Don't want to outlast our welcome... g I just posted a response to your email. keith John Francis wrote: Gonz wrote: [...]
Re: GFM and *ist D
On Tue, 13 Apr 2004, Cotty wrote: How about buying a hundred 32 MB CF and SD cards (using GFM proceeds) and issuing those to digi contestants - and asking for them back with the (max) three entries on. This kills several bears er birds with one stone. Maybe it's a good idea, but it doesn't solve the issue with possible picture editing etc, since it's easy to copy fixed pictures to the card from a computer. Unless people are being watched the whole time, that part has to be built on trust. anders - http://anders.hultman.nu/ med dagens bild och allt!
Re: GFM and *ist D
Hi, Bill. I will. Jostein Quoting Bill Owens [EMAIL PROTECTED]: How many of you are bringing an *ist D to GFM, or other DSLR for that matter. We may ask some of you for suggestions on how to set up a contest using digital photos. Bill This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: GFM and *ist D
One way to solve that is to specify a standard resolution for the judges to view it at. For example, if they are going to view it with a projector, a 1024x768 pixel resolution is reasonable. This will pretty much remove all the differences between cameras. What's more interesting is how to relate to computer processing before submission. Jostein Quoting graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Kind of a side comment here, NPW is not limited to one brand of camera. Digital would put the PS'ers at a sever disavantage to those with DSLR's. And how do you feel about having to compete with 11-14mp images with your 6mp cameras? 35mm sides all done on the same film (NPW provides it), and processed at the same place, kind of levels the playing field for the contest. Give em a year to figure it all out for digital. -- Mark Roberts wrote: Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/4/04, UNCLE BILL discumbobulated: How many of you are bringing an *ist D to GFM, or other DSLR for that matter. We may ask some of you for suggestions on how to set up a contest using digital photos. Bill Hi mate, Yup. D60 and some lenses plus MX and some lenses. How about shooting on a CF card (like you do) and then deleting everything that you don't want to enter, then handing over the CF card to a judge who downloads the contents to his laptop. The point is, the shot comes straight from the card with no chance of it going via a shooter's computer and being manipulated - colour corrected etc - just as a slide shooter's slides would be returned from the lab. That would only be true if the image was in RAW format. Then we'd have to deal with the software to do RAW conversions and (more significantly) the time required to do it. AND we'd have to download all the images from all the CF (and memory stick and SD cards) to a central computer - this takes *much* longer than simply handing someone an envelope with three slides in it! Perhaps a set number of images could be stipulated to be 'supplied to judge' on the card. You might shoot 376 pics, but you'd have to delete all but (say) 36 BOGGLE 36 images per participant??? Doug and I wouldn't get home until July! Currently, participants are allowed THREE entries! -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com/graywolf.html This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: GFM and *ist D
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: P.S. And what Cotty said, jpeg only. (To nix post processing.) How would that nix post processing? -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: GFM and *ist D
Jostein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One way to solve that is to specify a standard resolution for the judges to view it at. For example, if they are going to view it with a projector, a 1024x768 pixel resolution is reasonable. This will pretty much remove all the differences between cameras. Good idea. But what about the participants who don't know how to do this (yes, there *are* some who would fall into this category) or who do know how but don't bring a computer with them? What's more interesting is how to relate to computer processing before submission. Indeed. If an image has been resized, there's no telling what else might have been done to it (and downsizing would hide most visible manipulation artifacts). -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: GFM and *ist D
Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd love to see a digital competition, that would be really interesting! Make sure that they have the RAW plug-ins for the various brands though... Easier for the judges to shoot Jpeg. More skill required in shooting :-) Unless you shoot RAW and convert to JPEG before submitting the image... -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: GFM and *ist D
Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/4/04, IN THE LOUPE discumbobulated: Currently, participants are allowed THREE entries! I'm trying to figure some way for contestants to turn in a memory card with only 3 entries on it. Hey, can I be the one to collect the cards?! Oh...wait...they'll be expecting to get the cards BACK, right? Damn! How about buying a hundred 32 MB CF and SD cards And SmartMedia cards and XD cards and Memory Sticks (using GFM proceeds) and issuing those to digi contestants - and asking for them back with the (max) three entries on. This kills several bears er birds with one stone. Digital photographers would have to be very studious in shooting (as a slide shooter would be) Nah. The experienced digital guys would just shoot thousands of pictures using their own memory cards, edit out their best shots on their laptops and transfer the best three onto the card that they would turn in for the contest. This would put less-well-equipped photographers at a huge disadvantage. and in fact would effectively edit their selection either as they shoot on the Saturday, or just before handing back the card on the [Saturday or Sunday]. We're leaning strongly toward a Saturday evening deadline for the digital contest because the file transfer and organization and the judging will be so much more time-consuming. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: GFM and *ist D (now veering OT)
William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A good Cotes du Rhone is just about the nicest thing that can be made from a grape. I concur! (And not too terribly expensive in many instances.) -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: GFM and *ist D
BOGGLE 36 images per participant??? Doug and I wouldn't get home until July! I hear the weather at GFM is nice throughout June.
Re: GFM and *ist D (now veering OT)
In a message dated 4/13/2004 5:18:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: P.S. And what Cotty said, jpeg only. (To nix post processing.) How would that nix post processing? -- Mark Roberts Well, if you shoot RAW then you HAVE to post process to turn it into JPEG. I am still talking the honor system here. Allow only shooting in JPEG and allow no post processing. People will really cheat? I doubt it. I think if people are told images have to come straight from the card with no post processing, they won't post process. I mean you are looking for the best photographs, right? Not the best PS user. And if someone does win by cheating (i.e. post processing) then, well, they do. I know, I know, some insist on shooting RAW. Well, that would make it trickier. Unless you provide all the RAW plug-ins and do the conversion yourselves. But I think the judges can set the parameters. Like the ones I have given above. People can pick out their three best shots with review. Or they can download and pick. But most people will honor an honor system. (Do THAT MANY carry around their own laptops? I don't.) Marnie aka Doe
Re: GFM and *ist D (now veering OT)
At 11:50 AM 4/13/04, throwing caution to the wind, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, if you shoot RAW then you HAVE to post process to turn it into JPEG. I am still talking the honor system here. Allow only shooting in JPEG and allow no post processing. People will really cheat? I doubt it. I think if people are told images have to come straight from the card with no post processing, they won't post process. I mean you are looking for the best photographs, right? Not the best PS user. And if someone does win by cheating (i.e. post processing) then, well, they do. I know, I know, some insist on shooting RAW. Well, that would make it trickier. Unless you provide all the RAW plug-ins and do the conversion yourselves. But I think the judges can set the parameters. Like the ones I have given above. People can pick out their three best shots with review. Or they can download and pick. But most people will honor an honor system. (Do THAT MANY carry around their own laptops? I don't.) Marnie aka Doe Marnie, Leveling the playing field is not because we think everyone will cheat, it's because we need to avoid the possibility that someone who doesn't win might accuse one of the winners of cheating. If we don't have safeguards in place, then we cannot say that so and so didn't manipulate that image. The honor system is great, and to a certain extent we have to depend on it, but not having in place a system for limitation of manipulation heavily biases the digital contest toward those with a stronger grasp of digital. Slides that we have processed are relatively easy to police; digital files require a more thorough set of restrictions. People who are heavily into digital =will= carry a laptop, and we must figure out a way to remove the temptation to manipulate the image more than was done in-camera. We have been in discussion about this since last year's contest, and the discussion will carry through this year and into the next, including some public discussion during this year's NPW. When we feel that we have a good combination of parameters-- that we can fit within the historically easy-going nature of the weekend and contest, we will put it in place and go from there. Thanks to everyone who has contribute to this discussion thus far and to anyone who cares to continue it. It has given me some things to consider. Doug
Re: GFM and *ist D (now veering OT)
In a message dated 4/13/2004 10:14:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thanks to everyone who has contribute to this discussion thus far and to anyone who cares to continue it. It has given me some things to consider. Doug --- Ban laptops from the mountain? Won't help, of course, if they are staying elsewhere. Well, good luck! Tricky stuff. Marnie aka Doe Check all their laptops for file manipulation? Hehehehehe. Check all their photo files on HD? Hehehehehe.
Re: GFM and *ist D
It would be useful if there were one of those auto-print machines nearby. Just put in the card, and out come the prints. No laptops allowed. John On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 08:18:55 -0400, Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: P.S. And what Cotty said, jpeg only. (To nix post processing.) How would that nix post processing? -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Re: GFM and *ist D
On 13/4/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] discumbobulated: How about buying a hundred 32 MB CF and SD cards (using GFM proceeds) and issuing those to digi contestants - and asking for them back with the (max) three entries on. This kills several bears er birds with one stone. Maybe it's a good idea, but it doesn't solve the issue with possible picture editing etc, since it's easy to copy fixed pictures to the card from a computer. Unless people are being watched the whole time, that part has to be built on trust. The slide shoot contest is also on trust. What is from stopping a film contestant in swapping out his/her roll of slide film for one he/she brought along? For that matter, I shoot some class slides in my own time in my own way, come along to GFM, enter the contest, wander around all day Saturday enjoying myself, then simply enter 3 nice slides on the Sunday that I have in my pocket. Just better make sure that any close-ups of plants grow plentifully in NC! The point is, it's an honour system through and through. What gain from cheating? Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
Re: GFM and *ist D
On 13/4/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] discumbobulated: Make sure that they have the RAW plug-ins for the various brands though... Easier for the judges to shoot Jpeg. More skill required in shooting :-) Unless you shoot RAW and convert to JPEG before submitting the image... Nope - no computers allowed!!! Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
RE: GFM and *ist D
-Original Message- From: Cotty [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The point is, it's an honour system through and through. What gain from cheating? First place gets a foot massage from Doug, so the competition gets pretty fierce. tv
Re: GFM and *ist D
On 13/4/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] discumbobulated: (using GFM proceeds) and issuing those to digi contestants - and asking for them back with the (max) three entries on. This kills several bears er birds with one stone. Digital photographers would have to be very studious in shooting (as a slide shooter would be) Nah. The experienced digital guys would just shoot thousands of pictures using their own memory cards, edit out their best shots on their laptops and transfer the best three onto the card that they would turn in for the contest. This would put less-well-equipped photographers at a huge disadvantage. But in the current contest, doesn't an SLR camera with 15mm, 24mm, and 200mm lenses have an advantage over a P and S shooter? Yet the P and S shooter could well win a prize. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
Re: GFM and *ist D (now veering OT)
On 13/4/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] discumbobulated: Ban laptops from the mountain? Won't help, of course, if they are staying elsewhere. Well, good luck! Tricky stuff. Marnie aka Doe Check all their laptops for file manipulation? Marnie, I carry my PowerBook everywhere. I carried one everywhere even before I got into digital photography. It is not only an editing and viewing platform, it is an information centre, a music centre, a library, a TV, a radio, an archive creator, a web tool, a communications centre, a time management system - amongst others. I am happy to be called a sad git, but that's the way it is. If the camera bag and the PowerBook bag are about to fall into the water and I could save only one, it would be the PowerBook. HTH Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
Re: GFM and *ist D
On 13/4/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] discumbobulated: It would be useful if there were one of those auto-print machines nearby. Just put in the card, and out come the prints. No laptops allowed. So suddenly it's a print competition? I don't think so. Laptops are allowed. It's post-processing that should not be allowed. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
Re: GFM and *ist D
Since digital manipulation is a key part of digital photography why not allow it? No rules, other than the photo had to be taken at GFM. That would seem to make sense. Paul Ha! Take the bull by the horns! The man has a point. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
Re: GFM and *ist D
someone who really wanted to cheat with film could do so pretty easily too. shoot as much as they want during the week before and process their slides at the same place. at what point do you trust people to follow the rules? Herb - Original Message - From: Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 3:10 PM Subject: Re: GFM and *ist D Except that one could download to a laptop, manipulate the image as much as one liked and then put it back on the memory card...
RE: GFM and *ist D
Paul, I was thinking just that myself! Also, in regards to cheating - what's to stop someone from shooting a whole heap of other slide film on the day, or even bringing slides with them and submitting those to the judges? If people wanna cheat, they will - defeats the purpose of the entire weekend though, so I really don't know what benefit they would receive from it... tan. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 14 April 2004 5:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: GFM and *ist D Since digital manipulation is a key part of digital photography why not allow it? No rules, other than the photo had to be taken at GFM. That would seem to make sense. Paul
RE: GFM and *ist D
Yeah, but I don't think that them not having as many PS skills than others is in fact a disadvantage or makes an unlevel playing field. To me, it is no different than somebody entering the contest who has more photographic technical knowledge than the guy next to him. Or for that matter, the guy sporting the latest Nikon film body (or whatever), when compared with someone sporting an old Spotmatic. I think that it should be judged on the final results that are presented to the judges and not how the photographer achieved the result. PS manipulation to me is akin to dodging and burning etc in the darkroom - it is a means to an end and it is the artists vision that should be judged. As long as every entrant has access to all of the available mediums/technologies etc, then that is what I would consider a level playing field, and comparing one person's knowledge or skills base is irrelevant. The display of somebody's knowledge, skills, creative vision in the form of a captured image is what the competition is all about, imho. However, practically speaking, it needs to be as easy for the judges as possible and by adding all these twists and turns it would only make things more complicated. And, god help us if some quick fingered theif ever climbed the mountain during that particular weekend, can you imagine the $$$ value of all of the equipment being carted up there?!?! And if we are talking of adding photoprinters and laptops to the mix, holey dooly! tan. Or allow PhotoShop manipulation as Paul suggested. Though I think that distinctly makes an unlevel playing field. As some are a lot better at it. But maybe that would make any worries go away. Wouldn't help those that do not have laptops, but the rules would be clear that those without would probably be at a disadvantage.
Re: GFM and *ist D
I think our main concern is the logistics of dealing with changing the format of the contest from film to digital and less on the possibility of cheating. We're hoping to change from film to digital next year (2005). Bill - Original Message - From: Tanya Mayer Photography [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 7:40 PM Subject: RE: GFM and *ist D Paul, I was thinking just that myself! Also, in regards to cheating - what's to stop someone from shooting a whole heap of other slide film on the day, or even bringing slides with them and submitting those to the judges? If people wanna cheat, they will - defeats the purpose of the entire weekend though, so I really don't know what benefit they would receive from it... tan. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 14 April 2004 5:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: GFM and *ist D Since digital manipulation is a key part of digital photography why not allow it? No rules, other than the photo had to be taken at GFM. That would seem to make sense. Paul
Re: GFM and *ist D
Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13/4/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] discumbobulated: Nah. The experienced digital guys would just shoot thousands of pictures using their own memory cards, edit out their best shots on their laptops and transfer the best three onto the card that they would turn in for the contest. This would put less-well-equipped photographers at a huge disadvantage. But in the current contest, doesn't an SLR camera with 15mm, 24mm, and 200mm lenses have an advantage over a P and S shooter? Yet the P and S shooter could well win a prize. The disparity is vastly greater with digital, especially with regards to having the ability to take hundreds of shots and cherry pick the best. But the image quality issue is real, too. This is part of the major sea change that digital has caused. In the past, someone with a K1000 and 50mm f/2.0 could, in many situations, get exactly the same final image quality as someone with an EOS 1v and some expensive L glass. As long as you're set on a 24 x 36 film format your main determinant of image quality (especially in tripod-mounted landscape shots) is the lens. This has changed forever with digital because the camera *does* affect image quality. The disparity between APS format digital and full-frame is almost as great as between 35mm film and 645 (it's *slightly* less, a 1:2.3 ratio rather than 1:2.7). Fortunately this isn't going to be a big deal at GFM where the winners are only printed at 8 x 12 inches. Oh, but since the winners are made into 8 x 12 prints for display at GFM, the judges are going to need to see something quite a bit larger than a 600 x 800 pixel file, aren't they? Damn. There's another complication! -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: GFM and *ist D
On Apr 13, 2004, at 3:32 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or allow PhotoShop manipulation as Paul suggested. Though I think that distinctly makes an unlevel playing field. As some are a lot better at it. Isn't manipulation part of being a good digital photographer? Manipulation is the future of photography. It's time to recognize it as part of the process. Paul
Re: GFM and *ist D (now veering OT)
- Original Message - From: Gonz Subject: Re: GFM and *ist D (now veering OT) But some of us still prefer Cabs and Bordeaux style blends. :) I've never been able to figure you guys out. William Robb
Re: GFM and *ist D
- Original Message - From: Paul Stenquist Subject: Re: GFM and *ist D Isn't manipulation part of being a good digital photographer? Manipulation is the future of photography. It's time to recognize it as part of the process. Paul Manipulation of some sort has always been part of photography, and the better photographers generally are better manipulators as well. OTOH, digital manipulation has opened some doors that are difficult, if not totally impossible to open with film manipulation, and generally, has made the process of manipulation far easier that it is with film. I still think they are two seperate entities, and if you are going to have a photo contest, then film images and digital images (whether they are film derived initially or not) should not be judged against each other, at least not until late in the day when one is trying to judge the best image of the contest. Think dog shows, where each breed is judged seperately, with the best of breed advancing to a class contest, and best of class advancing to the best of show contest. William Robb
Re: GFM and *ist D
On 13 Apr 2004 at 18:48, William Robb wrote: Think dog shows, where each breed is judged seperately, with the best of breed advancing to a class contest, and best of class advancing to the best of show contest. I think that's a bad analogy given that the final output on which judgement is made can be totally independent from the initial capture medium, unlike doggy comps. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: GFM and *ist D
In a message dated 4/13/2004 1:02:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Going to digital for the contest will at least enable the staff to have a lot more time to sort and judge the photos. My current thoughts are to have each contestant still submit a memory card with 3 photos to be considered, and for the format to be jpeg. It's too much to ask for the judges to have to contend with several proprietary RAW formats to use this format. Since judging will be done via computer, file size is somewhat irrelevant since a 2 or 3 meg file looks nearly the same on a screen as a 6 meg file. Bill --- Sounds good. Marnie aka Doe
Re: GFM and *ist D (now veering OT)
In a message dated 4/13/2004 2:40:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Marnie, I carry my PowerBook everywhere. I carried one everywhere even before I got into digital photography. It is not only an editing and viewing platform, it is an information centre, a music centre, a library, a TV, a radio, an archive creator, a web tool, a communications centre, a time management system - amongst others. I am happy to be called a sad git, but that's the way it is. If the camera bag and the PowerBook bag are about to fall into the water and I could save only one, it would be the PowerBook. HTH Cheers, Cotty -- I have to get me one. (After I pay off the 300D, the XP upgrade, a new 120 GB HD, the Tamron 90mm Macro I bought three months ago, and...) Envy is such an ugly emotion, isn't it? Marnie aka Doe ;-)
Re: GFM and *ist D (now veering OT)
Cotty wrote: If the camera bag and the PowerBook bag are about to fall into the water and I could save only one, it would be the PowerBook. That's just because it would give you an excuse to get rid of that Canon gear and switch back to Pentax! ;-) -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: GFM and *ist D
Bill, Both my friend and I are bringing DSLR's. Bruce Monday, April 12, 2004, 6:14:58 AM, you wrote: BO How many of you are bringing an *ist D to GFM, or other DSLR for that BO matter. We may ask some of you for suggestions on how to set up a contest BO using digital photos. BO Bill
Re: GFM and *ist D
In a message dated 4/12/2004 6:16:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How many of you are bringing an *ist D to GFM, or other DSLR for that matter. We may ask some of you for suggestions on how to set up a contest using digital photos. Bill I was wondering about that when I read the program. Seems out-of-date now to limit the contest to just slide film. Or to not have one for DSLRs. All it would need is a decent lap top to display the images. You might limit it so no one can post process, since a lot of people still do not carry around laptops (expensive). I.E. Level the playing field. (Just a suggestion). I'll be bringing a 300D. Marnie aka Doe
Re: GFM and *ist D
I'll have mine, although I also have a bunch of 120 film I have to use. Steven Desjardins Department of Chemistry Washington and Lee University Lexington, VA 24450 (540) 458-8873 FAX: (540) 458-8878 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: GFM and *ist D
On 12/4/04, UNCLE BILL discumbobulated: How many of you are bringing an *ist D to GFM, or other DSLR for that matter. We may ask some of you for suggestions on how to set up a contest using digital photos. Bill Hi mate, Yup. D60 and some lenses plus MX and some lenses. How about shooting on a CF card (like you do) and then deleting everything that you don't want to enter, then handing over the CF card to a judge who downloads the contents to his laptop. The point is, the shot comes straight from the card with no chance of it going via a shooter's computer and being manipulated - colour corrected etc - just as a slide shooter's slides would be returned from the lab. Perhaps a set number of images could be stipulated to be 'supplied to judge' on the card. You might shoot 376 pics, but you'd have to delete all but (say) 36 (for old time's sake) to present to a judge for uploading. Once presented, the requisite shots could be selected for entering into [the] contest. Perhaps when 36 shots are offered to the judge for uploading, the judge would then provide a contact sheet printout to the contestant so he/she could mull over and choose those for the contest the next day (as with film). Shooters would have to avoid overdoing it - snapping 500 frames and whittling down to 36 could take a while. No point in stipulating shooting only 36 on the card - self-governing does not work. An alternative would be to provide CF cards with finite space but that's extra cost. As long as (say) 36 shots are provided for upload to the e-Judge, then it doesn't really matter how many were actually shot in the process - - or does it? Film shooters get 36 opportunities to present for processing, selecting contest entries out of that. You could argue that a slide shooter can't review focus and composition after the shutter is tripped, so why should a digi shooter be allowed that pleasure? Tough one. Individual judges followinging contestants and making sure they don't review pics? I think the emphasis of a digital contest would have to be far removed from the norms of a slide film contest. Take it as read that a digi shooter will review a shot for focus and whatever - part of the territory - BUT not being able to correct on a computer, perhaps placing more emphasis on the shooting stage and not being able to post-process. This means NOT shooting RAW - shooting Jpeg and getting the white balance *right*, and setting the in-camera sharpening and contrast right - pulling out pics that could be uploaded to the judges computer and practically printed out there and then. This is part of the skill - in knowing the camera and setting it up right. Very interesting premise, and just a few thoughts back at yer... A glass of Cotes du Rhone to the PDML. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
Re: GFM and *ist D
In a message dated 4/12/2004 12:40:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi mate, Yup. D60 and some lenses plus MX and some lenses. How about shooting on a CF card (like you do) and then deleting everything that you don't want to enter, then handing over the CF card to a judge who downloads the contents to his laptop. The point is, the shot comes straight from the card with no chance of it going via a shooter's computer and being manipulated - colour corrected etc - just as a slide shooter's slides would be returned from the lab. Perhaps a set number of images could be stipulated to be 'supplied to judge' on the card. You might shoot 376 pics, but you'd have to delete all but (say) 36 (for old time's sake) to present to a judge for uploading. Once presented, the requisite shots could be selected for entering into [the] contest. Perhaps when 36 shots are offered to the judge for uploading, the judge would then provide a contact sheet printout to the contestant so he/she could mull over and choose those for the contest the next day (as with film). Shooters would have to avoid overdoing it - snapping 500 frames and whittling down to 36 could take a while. No point in stipulating shooting only 36 on the card - self-governing does not work. An alternative would be to provide CF cards with finite space but that's extra cost. As long as (say) 36 shots are provided for upload to the e-Judge, then it doesn't really matter how many were actually shot in the process - - or does it? Film shooters get 36 opportunities to present for processing, selecting contest entries out of that. You could argue that a slide shooter can't review focus and composition after the shutter is tripped, so why should a digi shooter be allowed that pleasure? Tough one. Individual judges followinging contestants and making sure they don't review pics? I think the emphasis of a digital contest would have to be far removed from the norms of a slide film contest. Take it as read that a digi shooter will review a shot for focus and whatever - part of the territory - BUT not being able to correct on a computer, perhaps placing more emphasis on the shooting stage and not being able to post-process. This means NOT shooting RAW - shooting Jpeg and getting the white balance *right*, and setting the in-camera sharpening and contrast right - pulling out pics that could be uploaded to the judges computer and practically printed out there and then. This is part of the skill - in knowing the camera and setting it up right. Very interesting premise, and just a few thoughts back at yer... A glass of Cotes du Rhone to the PDML. Cheers, Cotty - Don't know that I'd want to have to *delete* any shots that I thought were half way decent. Unless I could download them to something else first (but don't think I'll have that capability by GFM). But I can understand the thinking. Almost too much work for judges or anyone if you say out of 500 shots -- okay, my 36 shots for consideration are: #1, #13, #213, #214, #303... Marnie aka Doe Hehehehe. Raises interesting questions, for sure.
Re: GFM and *ist D
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was wondering about that when I read the program. Seems out-of-date now to limit the contest to just slide film. Or to not have one for DSLRs. All it would need is a decent lap top to display the images. We've been through this already (we being the staff, organizers and helpers of various sorts at the GFM program) and it would take a *lot* more than just a laptop to display the images. Many different file formats and sizes; different memory card styles; file naming conventions. How do we know which image belongs to which participant? In which category is it entered (many images could fall into two categories)? Gotta have some sort of database here. For fairness, everyone should probably be required to submit the same size (in pixels) image (or at least close), but many point-n-shoot users wouldn't know *how* (really) or have a laptop with them to do so if they do. We get plenty of photographers who are strictly point-and-shoot types. The DSLR users will have powerful PC's with them and would be able to do cropping and levels adjustments. Then there's the problem of judging. Digital makes this a *lot* slower than with slides. Doug Brewer and I judged the contest last year. The first cut took place on the light table: We could visually scan whole batches of slides and weed out the over/under exposures, obviously bad compositions (single rhododendron blossom, dead center in the frame, what Doug calls the bull's-eye shot), etc. Then groups are sorted out and individual slides examined under a loupe. You can get the hundreds of entries narrowed down to the best contenders much faster this way than by viewing images on a computer monitor, but even so we had to work our tails off to get the judging done in time for the awards presentation. (Judging looks like the biggest hurdle to overcome in the whole going digital process.) You might limit it so no one can post process, How? Accept only RAW files? That would eliminate file size equality. Many cameras won't output RAW files at all. We'd need RAW conversion software for different camera types. since a lot of people still do not carry around laptops (expensive). I.E. Level the playing field. (Just a suggestion). I'll be bringing a 300D. I'll be bring a 645 and an ist-D :) The Nature Photography Weekend will probably be digital in 2005, but it's going to take a lot of work and organization to make it happen. A lot of discussion has taken place via email and meetings will take place in June. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: GFM and *ist D
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems out-of-date now to limit the contest to just slide film. Or to not have one for DSLRs. All it would need is a decent lap top to display the images. We (the organizers, staff and assistants at the Nature Photography Weekend) have discussed this and it would take a *lot* more than just a laptop to display the images. First of all we'd have to decide on acceptable file formats and sizes. Do we allow DSLR users to keep the advantage of larger image size? Do we accept TIFF, JPEG or RAW? What about accommodating the different memory card types? Then you have the simple issue of time: It takes a second to hand over an envelope containing three slides. Downloading digital files of certain sizes takes considerable time. Then how do we know which image belongs to which person and what category it is being entered in? With slides you write this on the back of the mount. It's possible to add this information into the EXIF section of JPEG files, but not everyone has the equipment or knowhow to do so. The biggest hurdle is going to be judging. Doug Brewer and I judged the contest last year. With slides you put big batches on a large light table and you can cut out the chaff in no time (under/over exposure, bad composition - like the single-rhododendron-blossom-dead-center-in-the-frame that Doug calls the bullseye shot). Hundreds of entries can be reduced to a few dozen serious contenders very quickly this way. Then we go over groups of slides with a loupe. You can go back and forth between any two slides almost instantly and take in groups of slides in a glance. You slowly narrow things down to a few outstanding shots. The closer you get to the end of this process, the less the disadvantage becomes, but at the beginning when you're dealing with hundreds of images it's going to be a nightmare. Doug and I had to work our tails off to get the judging done in time for the awards. Digital will be *much* slower. You might limit it so no one can post process How? Allow only RAW files? Some cameras don't output RAW files. For the ones that do we'd need RAW conversion software and the time to do the conversions. I'll be bringing a 300D. I'll be bringing a 645... and an ist-D :) We expect that the Nature Photography Weekend will go digital in 2005 but there's a whole lot of planning and work to be done first. We've had many discussions via email and we'll have meetings at GFM in June. It's going to happen there are a lot of decisions, plans and hardware accommodations to be made first. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
RE: GFM and *ist D
I'll be bringing mine and no laptop! *eek*, I am selling mine on Ebay so that I have more $$ to play with when I get over there, and will buy a brand new one when I return home! I'd love to see a digital competition, that would be really interesting! Make sure that they have the RAW plug-ins for the various brands though... tan. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 13 April 2004 3:43 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: GFM and *ist D In a message dated 4/12/2004 6:16:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How many of you are bringing an *ist D to GFM, or other DSLR for that matter. We may ask some of you for suggestions on how to set up a contest using digital photos. Bill I was wondering about that when I read the program. Seems out-of-date now to limit the contest to just slide film. Or to not have one for DSLRs. All it would need is a decent lap top to display the images. You might limit it so no one can post process, since a lot of people still do not carry around laptops (expensive). I.E. Level the playing field. (Just a suggestion). I'll be bringing a 300D. Marnie aka Doe
Re: GFM and *ist D
In a message dated 4/12/2004 1:31:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You might limit it so no one can post process, How? Accept only RAW files? That would eliminate file size equality. Many cameras won't output RAW files at all. We'd need RAW conversion software for different camera types. - Honor system. I mean will people really cheat to win a contest? Not many would, I think. Rules say no post processing, it means don't do it. Marnie aka Doe :-) Well, you have obviously given it a lot more thought than I, but I think most would honor an honor system.
Re: GFM and *ist D
P.S. And what Cotty said, jpeg only. (To nix post processing.) I wasn't planning to enter the contest anyway, even if I still had a film camera. I'm not good enough to bother. But I do hope you guys can work out details to allow digital sometime. Seems only fair. I know, from past experiences being a volunteer and an organizer and a volunteer organizer, it can be a real PITA organizing things. So good luck! Marnie aka Doe
Re: GFM and *ist D
Kind of a side comment here, NPW is not limited to one brand of camera. Digital would put the PS'ers at a sever disavantage to those with DSLR's. And how do you feel about having to compete with 11-14mp images with your 6mp cameras? 35mm sides all done on the same film (NPW provides it), and processed at the same place, kind of levels the playing field for the contest. Give em a year to figure it all out for digital. -- Mark Roberts wrote: Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/4/04, UNCLE BILL discumbobulated: How many of you are bringing an *ist D to GFM, or other DSLR for that matter. We may ask some of you for suggestions on how to set up a contest using digital photos. Bill Hi mate, Yup. D60 and some lenses plus MX and some lenses. How about shooting on a CF card (like you do) and then deleting everything that you don't want to enter, then handing over the CF card to a judge who downloads the contents to his laptop. The point is, the shot comes straight from the card with no chance of it going via a shooter's computer and being manipulated - colour corrected etc - just as a slide shooter's slides would be returned from the lab. That would only be true if the image was in RAW format. Then we'd have to deal with the software to do RAW conversions and (more significantly) the time required to do it. AND we'd have to download all the images from all the CF (and memory stick and SD cards) to a central computer - this takes *much* longer than simply handing someone an envelope with three slides in it! Perhaps a set number of images could be stipulated to be 'supplied to judge' on the card. You might shoot 376 pics, but you'd have to delete all but (say) 36 BOGGLE 36 images per participant??? Doug and I wouldn't get home until July! Currently, participants are allowed THREE entries! -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com/graywolf.html
Re: GFM and *ist D
On 12/4/04, A LOUPE LOVER discumbobulated: Perhaps a set number of images could be stipulated to be 'supplied to judge' on the card. You might shoot 376 pics, but you'd have to delete all but (say) 36 BOGGLE 36 images per participant??? Doug and I wouldn't get home until July! Currently, participants are allowed THREE entries! Oops, my brain farted. Of course you're right. 3 shots per contestant. I was thinking along the lines of a roll of slide film submitted for processing, and then returned. Nonesense. I think that a digital contest has to be thought out from the ground up, and not extrapolated (if you will) from an existing film model. BTW thanks for the judging insights - I'll be giving the rhododendrons a wide birth! Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
Re: GFM and *ist D (now veering OT)
- Original Message - From: Dan Matyola Subject: Re: GFM and *ist D (now veering OT) Cotes du Rhone comes from France, not from South Africa. I may be mistaken, but I believe Cotes du Rhone is primarily Grenache, and is closely related to Chateau neuf du Pape, which is a blend of Grenache and up to another ten or so varieties, and is arguably the best known of the Rhone wines. It comes from the Rhone region (go figure) of France. A good Cotes du Rhone is just about the nicest thing that can be made from a grape. William Robb
Re: GFM and *ist D
On 12/4/04, IN THE LOUPE discumbobulated: Currently, participants are allowed THREE entries! I'm trying to figure some way for contestants to turn in a memory card with only 3 entries on it. Hey, can I be the one to collect the cards?! Oh...wait...they'll be expecting to get the cards BACK, right? Damn! How about buying a hundred 32 MB CF and SD cards (using GFM proceeds) and issuing those to digi contestants - and asking for them back with the (max) three entries on. This kills several bears er birds with one stone. Digital photographers would have to be very studious in shooting (as a slide shooter would be) and in fact would effectively edit their selection either as they shoot on the Saturday, or just before handing back the card on the [Saturday or Sunday]. Entries on cards would not be able to be given back to the photographer, so unless they wanted to upload shots to a laptop at the event, then the photographer would swap out cards on location and shoot again on their own card, swapping back to continue the event More .02c Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
Re: GFM and *ist D (now veering OT)
On 12/4/04, AN OLD SOAK discumbobulated: Cotty wrote: A glass of Cotes du Rhone to the PDML. Cheers, Cotty Last summer I was offered a South African wine of this under the label Goats do Roam. It was awful, but I am still chuckling over the name. Joe LOL. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
RE: GFM and *ist D
I'd love to see a digital competition, that would be really interesting! Make sure that they have the RAW plug-ins for the various brands though... tan. Easier for the judges to shoot Jpeg. More skill required in shooting :-) Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
