Re: OT Question (was Re: OT Is returning a phone message reallythatcomplicated)
On Tue, 9 Jan 2007, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: > On Jan 9, 2007, at 6:46 AM, mike wilson wrote: > >> What about the use of "would have" for "had"? As in, "If I would >> have written it properly, nobody could have been offended". >> Correct US use? It sounds diabolical to me. > > It's a colloquialism or vernacular in US English. According to my English (language, as hey came from both sides of the pond) teachers, this is grammatically incorrect. The "If" part of a conditional does not take a form of will; the latter part does. Here is a Scottish one that stuns me: "I would have went". Kostas -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT Question (was Re: OT Is returning a phone message reallythatcomplicated)
That was a mistake. I was typing too fast and didn't check what I'd written. D Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: > On Jan 9, 2007, at 7:37 AM, Don Williams wrote: > > >> Every single US website that offers free services, that I have ever >> seen, uses "For Free!" and not "Free" or "Free of Charge" or >> "Gratis" or >> any other correct combination of words. But if you look again >> you'll see >> that I write US spoken English is sometimes strange. And do not imply >> that this is always the case. But find me a website offer that is >> "Free" >> and not "For free" and I'll take back (most of) my words. >> >> If you see a child with dirty sneakers up on the sofa cushions do you >> say "Get you feet off the sofa" or "Get your feet off of the sofa?" >> > > I would say "Get your feet off the sofa!", eliding the "of" for > emphasis. Prepositions in US English are often elided compared to > British English, for various reasons. "you feet" where "you" is a > replacement for "your" is a dialectic shift mostly seen in certain > cultural groups, but not proper in written US English. > > G > > -- Dr E D F Williams www.kolumbus.fi/mimosa/ http://personal.inet.fi/cool/don.williams/ 41660 TOIVAKKA – Finland - +358400706616 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT Question (was Re: OT Is returning a phone message reallythatcomplicated)
mike wilson wrote: >> From: "Shel Belinkoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 2007/01/09 >> Tue PM 02:14:24 GMT To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" >> Subject: Re: OT Question (was Re: OT Is returning a phone message >> reallythatcomplicated) >> >> Those examples are not "American English." Those are examples of >> incorrect American English, of people not knowing correct English >> grammar. I'm sure there are people in every country that misspeak >> their language, use slang, jargon, or speak in the vernacular. > What about the use of "would have" for "had"? As in, "If I would > have written it properly, nobody could have been offended". Correct > US use? It sounds diabolical to me. 8-) There's supposed to be something wrong with that sentence? Not in my opinion. Diabolical or not, it's perfectly understandable, and capable of being parsed. keith whaley -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT Question (was Re: OT Is returning a phone message reallythatcomplicated)
On Jan 9, 2007, at 7:37 AM, Don Williams wrote: > Every single US website that offers free services, that I have ever > seen, uses "For Free!" and not "Free" or "Free of Charge" or > "Gratis" or > any other correct combination of words. But if you look again > you'll see > that I write US spoken English is sometimes strange. And do not imply > that this is always the case. But find me a website offer that is > "Free" > and not "For free" and I'll take back (most of) my words. > > If you see a child with dirty sneakers up on the sofa cushions do you > say "Get you feet off the sofa" or "Get your feet off of the sofa?" I would say "Get your feet off the sofa!", eliding the "of" for emphasis. Prepositions in US English are often elided compared to British English, for various reasons. "you feet" where "you" is a replacement for "your" is a dialectic shift mostly seen in certain cultural groups, but not proper in written US English. G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT Question (was Re: OT Is returning a phone message reallythatcomplicated)
Hi Shel, Every single US website that offers free services, that I have ever seen, uses "For Free!" and not "Free" or "Free of Charge" or "Gratis" or any other correct combination of words. But if you look again you'll see that I write US spoken English is sometimes strange. And do not imply that this is always the case. But find me a website offer that is "Free" and not "For free" and I'll take back (most of) my words. If you see a child with dirty sneakers up on the sofa cushions do you say "Get you feet off the sofa" or "Get your feet off of the sofa?" Don Shel Belinkoff wrote: > Those examples are not "American English." Those are examples of > incorrect American English, of people not knowing correct English grammar. > I'm sure there are people in every country that misspeak their language, > use slang, jargon, or speak in the vernacular. > > > Shel > > > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Don Williams >> > > >> There is nothing wrong with US English spelling; or UK English spelling >> either. But while US spelling may be more sensible, US spoken English is >> sometimes strange. Extra words thrown in where they are not needed and >> words left out where they are. An example " off of " and " out the door >> " -- or window perhaps. Also " I " where it should be " me ". But the >> spelling is fine. However some differences need to be learned: elevator >> for lift; subway for underground; and many others. I use US spelling >> (when I remember) for PDML because most of the members are US English >> speakers. I recall writing something like this not so long ago. >> >> If you want to hear examples of good US English don't listen to G W >> Bush. Without a script he'd be hopeless. >> Oh yes ... another one that drives me crazy is " For free " meaning " >> Free " or " No charge " or " Gratis ". >> > > > > -- Dr E D F Williams www.kolumbus.fi/mimosa/ http://personal.inet.fi/cool/don.williams/ 41660 TOIVAKKA – Finland - +358400706616 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT Question (was Re: OT Is returning a phone message reallythatcomplicated)
On 1/09/07 10:30 AM, "Godfrey DiGiorgi", <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> What about the use of "would have" for "had"? As in, "If I would >> have written it properly, nobody could have been offended". >> Correct US use? It sounds diabolical to me. >> 8-) > > It's a colloquialism or vernacular in US English. (I'm not a > linguist, the distinction is a little vague to me.) Understood and > acceptable in casual conversation but not seen in written prose or > formal 'correct' speech. I use those sentences but if they are colloquial, I have to know what the proper use of them to describe the same situations in more formal letter etc. I did not know there was anything wrong with those expressions. BTW, I have nothing against "proper" or "correct" U.S. English. They are often more rationalized and save ink. (Color instead of colour etc, but not night/nite or through/thru unless in email etc) Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT Question (was Re: OT Is returning a phone message reallythatcomplicated)
On Jan 9, 2007, at 6:46 AM, mike wilson wrote: > >> >> From: "Shel Belinkoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Date: 2007/01/09 Tue PM 02:14:24 GMT >> To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" >> Subject: Re: OT Question (was Re: OT Is returning a phone message >> reallythatcomplicated) >> >> Those examples are not "American English." Those are examples of >> incorrect American English, of people not knowing correct English >> grammar. >> I'm sure there are people in every country that misspeak their >> language, >> use slang, jargon, or speak in the vernacular. > > What about the use of "would have" for "had"? As in, "If I would > have written it properly, nobody could have been offended". > Correct US use? It sounds diabolical to me. > 8-) It's a colloquialism or vernacular in US English. (I'm not a linguist, the distinction is a little vague to me.) Understood and acceptable in casual conversation but not seen in written prose or formal 'correct' speech. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT Question (was Re: OT Is returning a phone message reallythatcomplicated)
> > From: "Shel Belinkoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 2007/01/09 Tue PM 02:14:24 GMT > To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" > Subject: Re: OT Question (was Re: OT Is returning a phone message > reallythatcomplicated) > > Those examples are not "American English." Those are examples of > incorrect American English, of people not knowing correct English grammar. > I'm sure there are people in every country that misspeak their language, > use slang, jargon, or speak in the vernacular. What about the use of "would have" for "had"? As in, "If I would have written it properly, nobody could have been offended". Correct US use? It sounds diabolical to me. 8-) > > [Original Message] > > From: Don Williams > > > There is nothing wrong with US English spelling; or UK English spelling > > either. But while US spelling may be more sensible, US spoken English is > > sometimes strange. Extra words thrown in where they are not needed and > > words left out where they are. An example " off of " and " out the door > > " -- or window perhaps. Also " I " where it should be " me ". But the > > spelling is fine. However some differences need to be learned: elevator > > for lift; subway for underground; and many others. I use US spelling > > (when I remember) for PDML because most of the members are US English > > speakers. I recall writing something like this not so long ago. > > > > If you want to hear examples of good US English don't listen to G W > > Bush. Without a script he'd be hopeless. > > Oh yes ... another one that drives me crazy is " For free " meaning " > > Free " or " No charge " or " Gratis ". > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT Question (was Re: OT Is returning a phone message reallythatcomplicated)
Those examples are not "American English." Those are examples of incorrect American English, of people not knowing correct English grammar. I'm sure there are people in every country that misspeak their language, use slang, jargon, or speak in the vernacular. Shel > [Original Message] > From: Don Williams > There is nothing wrong with US English spelling; or UK English spelling > either. But while US spelling may be more sensible, US spoken English is > sometimes strange. Extra words thrown in where they are not needed and > words left out where they are. An example " off of " and " out the door > " -- or window perhaps. Also " I " where it should be " me ". But the > spelling is fine. However some differences need to be learned: elevator > for lift; subway for underground; and many others. I use US spelling > (when I remember) for PDML because most of the members are US English > speakers. I recall writing something like this not so long ago. > > If you want to hear examples of good US English don't listen to G W > Bush. Without a script he'd be hopeless. > Oh yes ... another one that drives me crazy is " For free " meaning " > Free " or " No charge " or " Gratis ". -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
