Re: OT Stop bath
Quoting mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You can use your nose. Once it stops smelling like vinegar it will be knackered. Or your nose will be 8-))) With fixer in the area, the nose might indeed be done for.
RE: OT Stop bath
-Original Message- From: mike wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Indeedy. I was referring to vinegar, the diluted form. Oh I knew that :-) The pure (glacial) stuff is interesting, it freezes at cold room temperatures, even in Australia with a relatively mild Winter. -- Peter Williams
Re: RE: OT Stop bath
From: Peter Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2005/03/22 Tue AM 09:31:34 GMT To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: RE: OT Stop bath -Original Message- From: mike wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Indeedy. I was referring to vinegar, the diluted form. Oh I knew that :-) The pure (glacial) stuff is interesting, it freezes at cold room temperatures, even in Australia with a relatively mild Winter. Theoretically, it's 16 degrees C. Often, I've gone to get the stock bottle from the outside store, checked that it's liquid, walked into the lab and found that the bottle has frozen as I walked. Amusing phenomenon. mike - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
RE: RE: OT Stop bath
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Theoretically, it's 16 degrees C. That sound about right. I was very suprised the first time I saw it. -- Peter Williams
Re: OT Stop bath
- Original Message - From: Godfrey DiGiorgi Subject: Re: OT Stop bath The whole point of a stop bath is to neutralize the development process with an acidic environment in order to save the fixer. When I went to all one shot development chemistry for film 22 years ago (more consistency that way), I dispensed with it for film entirely. The spirit vinegar works fine for stop bath with prints. I did that for years until I stopped making darkroom prints. The point of stopbath is to stop the development process. Using plain water as a stopbath doesn't allow for an accurate development time, since the develoment continues until the acidic fixer is dropped into the tank. If you are using a non acid rapid fixer, development continues, albeit slowly, until the film is fully fixed. William Robb
Re: OT Stop bath
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT Stop bath Rather wishing I'd known this several years ago, but oh well. You would lose the indicator that typically comes in stop bath, but I'm sure there's a workaround for that, too. Those nice indicator strips, maybe? Surely, not being liquid, those aren't hazardous :-) Use is one shot (it's cheap enough), or use your nose. If it smells like vinegar, it is still acidic enough to use. This stuff ain't rocket science, no matter how much we would like to think it is. William Robb
Re: OT Stop bath
- Original Message - From: Scott Loveless Subject: OT Stop bath Anybody know anything about shipping stop bath. BH won't do it just now. Adorama doesn't seem to have a problem letting me add it to my cart. The Camera Store says it must be shipped as a hazardous material and will incur additional charges. Is this something new, or I have I been out of the loop for too long? Stobath is acetic acid in a 1%-3% concentration (slightly stronger for film) Common white vinegar is 5% acetic acid solution. Dilute white vinegar 1:2 for paper, 1:1 for film, and treat it as a one shot chemical. Or: if you have an industrial chemical supplier in your area, and can get a few other interested people to go in on it, you can get glacial acetic acid fairly cheaply, in 20 litre drums. William Robb
Re: OT Stop bath
On Mar 22, 2005, at 11:00 AM, William Robb wrote: The whole point of a stop bath is to neutralize the development process with an acidic environment in order to save the fixer. When I went to all one shot development chemistry for film 22 years ago (more consistency that way), I dispensed with it for film entirely. The point of stopbath is to stop the development process. Using plain water as a stopbath doesn't allow for an accurate development time, since the develoment continues until the acidic fixer is dropped into the tank. If you are using a non acid rapid fixer, development continues, albeit slowly, until the film is fully fixed. So slowly as to not be significant, William. I spent a lot of time tuning BW film development processes with Minox format film, makes tiny differences much more significant than 35mm or larger format film. I found the most consistent results to be processed without stop bath. Godfrey
OT Stop bath
Anybody know anything about shipping stop bath. BH won't do it just now. Adorama doesn't seem to have a problem letting me add it to my cart. The Camera Store says it must be shipped as a hazardous material and will incur additional charges. Is this something new, or I have I been out of the loop for too long? -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com
Re: OT Stop bath
I don't know what kind of shipping restrictions there might be on stop bath. I just buy it at my local camera store. It's not very expensive. However, if you're in a rural area, I suppose that could be a problem. If I run out of stop bath, I just shorten my development time by about 10 seconds and use a 30-second water bath after the developer. The results seem identical, and the fixer life seems to be about the same. Paul Anybody know anything about shipping stop bath. BH won't do it just now. Adorama doesn't seem to have a problem letting me add it to my cart. The Camera Store says it must be shipped as a hazardous material and will incur additional charges. Is this something new, or I have I been out of the loop for too long? -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com
RE: OT Stop bath
I've been hearing about this for at least a year or so now, maybe two. It's fascinating how the three stores are so different in they way they treat the product. Shel [Original Message] From: Scott Loveless Anybody know anything about shipping stop bath. BH won't do it just now. Adorama doesn't seem to have a problem letting me add it to my cart. The Camera Store says it must be shipped as a hazardous material and will incur additional charges. Is this something new, or I have I been out of the loop for too long?
Re: OT Stop bath
Stop bath itself is made up of acetic acid, and an indicator to show when it's depleted. It's usually shipped in concentrated form, so I suppose it could be a bit hazardous if damaged/dropped. Not sure where that line is drawn, though. -Mat On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 09:44:04 -0500, Scott Loveless [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anybody know anything about shipping stop bath. BH won't do it just now. Adorama doesn't seem to have a problem letting me add it to my cart. The Camera Store says it must be shipped as a hazardous material and will incur additional charges. Is this something new, or I have I been out of the loop for too long?
Re: OT Stop bath
From: Scott Loveless [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2005/03/21 Mon PM 02:44:04 GMT To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: OT Stop bath Anybody know anything about shipping stop bath. BH won't do it just now. Adorama doesn't seem to have a problem letting me add it to my cart. The Camera Store says it must be shipped as a hazardous material and will incur additional charges. Is this something new, or I have I been out of the loop for too long? Go to your local pharmacist or grocer and buy some spirit vinegar. Not malt. It's the same thing. mike -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com virus-checked by McAfee visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information
RE: OT Stop bath
For BW film/paper ??? I have used vinager acid - that is acetic acid (diluted) for 30 years. You may be able to get this is any super merket or drug store! Jens Bladt mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hjem.get2net.dk/bladt -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: Scott Loveless [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 21. marts 2005 15:44 Til: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Emne: OT Stop bath Anybody know anything about shipping stop bath. BH won't do it just now. Adorama doesn't seem to have a problem letting me add it to my cart. The Camera Store says it must be shipped as a hazardous material and will incur additional charges. Is this something new, or I have I been out of the loop for too long? -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com
Re: OT Stop bath
Having a CDL and a HazMat endorsement I can tell you that small quanities are not legally considered hazardous. However, if someone can make a buck off of our ignorance they will. FreeStyle Photo does not (at least did not) charge a HazMat fee, but does ship via ground only. Or use white vinegar from the grocery store. Personally I use a water stop bath, but then you pretty much have to toss your hypo after a developing session. graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- Scott Loveless wrote: Anybody know anything about shipping stop bath. BH won't do it just now. Adorama doesn't seem to have a problem letting me add it to my cart. The Camera Store says it must be shipped as a hazardous material and will incur additional charges. Is this something new, or I have I been out of the loop for too long? -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/2005
Re: OT Stop bath
On 21/3/05, Scott Loveless, discombobulated, unleashed: Anybody know anything about shipping stop bath. BH won't do it just now. Adorama doesn't seem to have a problem letting me add it to my cart. The Camera Store says it must be shipped as a hazardous material and will incur additional charges. Is this something new, or I have I been out of the loop for too long? What's this, a filter for Photoshlop ? ;-) Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
Re: OT Stop bath
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I don't know what kind of shipping restrictions there might be on stop bath. I just buy it at my local camera store. It's not very expensive. However, if you're in a rural area, I suppose that could be a problem. If I run out of stop bath, I just shorten my development time by about 10 seconds and use a 30-second water bath after the developer. The results seem identical, and the fixer life seems to be about the same. Not that I do bw developing at all these days, but I've been wondering since back when I *did* do it -- as a point of interest, is there any variety of vinegar pure enough to substitute or to prepare a substitute? since it's effectively the same chemical? ERNR
Re: OT Stop bath
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:39:47 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not that I do bw developing at all these days, but I've been wondering since back when I *did* do it -- as a point of interest, is there any variety of vinegar pure enough to substitute or to prepare a substitute? since it's effectively the same chemical? ERNR I just got an email off-list about this. Basically, the understanding is that white vinegar (spirit not malt) is about 4-5% acetic acid. A 1+1 dilution with distilled water should produce the proper strength for use. It's much less complicated than overpaying to ship stop bath. -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com
Re: OT Stop bath
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I don't know what kind of shipping restrictions there might be on stop bath. I just buy it at my local camera store. It's not very expensive. However, if you're in a rural area, I suppose that could be a problem. If I run out of stop bath, I just shorten my development time by about 10 seconds and use a 30-second water bath after the developer. The results seem identical, and the fixer life seems to be about the same. Not that I do bw developing at all these days, but I've been wondering since back when I *did* do it -- as a point of interest, is there any variety of vinegar pure enough to substitute or to prepare a substitute? since it's effectively the same chemical? ... and I see at least three people had already answered this question before I posted it! Thanks, all! (always feel stooopid when that happens ... )
Re: OT Stop bath
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:07:48 +, Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 21/3/05, Scott Loveless, discombobulated, unleashed: Anybody know anything about shipping stop bath. BH won't do it just now. Adorama doesn't seem to have a problem letting me add it to my cart. The Camera Store says it must be shipped as a hazardous material and will incur additional charges. Is this something new, or I have I been out of the loop for too long? What's this, a filter for Photoshlop ? ;-) Yep. But it doesn't work with C* hardware. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com
Re: OT Stop bath
Well it is an acid, which type are you getting. The most common is the same as acidic acid which is only concentrated vinegar, the other I know of is biodegradable citric acid based from Ilford. Maybe they'll ship the latter and not the former? Scott Loveless wrote: Anybody know anything about shipping stop bath. BH won't do it just now. Adorama doesn't seem to have a problem letting me add it to my cart. The Camera Store says it must be shipped as a hazardous material and will incur additional charges. Is this something new, or I have I been out of the loop for too long? -- I can understand why mankind hasn't given up war. During a war you get to drive tanks through the sides of buildings and shoot foreigners - two things that are usually frowned on during peacetime. --P.J. O'Rourke
Re: OT Stop bath
Quoting Scott Loveless [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:39:47 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not that I do bw developing at all these days, but I've been wondering since back when I *did* do it -- as a point of interest, is there any variety of vinegar pure enough to substitute or to prepare a substitute? since it's effectively the same chemical? ERNR I just got an email off-list about this. Basically, the understanding is that white vinegar (spirit not malt) is about 4-5% acetic acid. A 1+1 dilution with distilled water should produce the proper strength for use. It's much less complicated than overpaying to ship stop bath. Rather wishing I'd known this several years ago, but oh well. You would lose the indicator that typically comes in stop bath, but I'm sure there's a workaround for that, too. Those nice indicator strips, maybe? Surely, not being liquid, those aren't hazardous :-) ERNR
Re: OT Stop bath
Scott Loveless wrote: On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:41:37 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Scott Loveless [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2005/03/21 Mon PM 02:44:04 GMT To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: OT Stop bath Anybody know anything about shipping stop bath. BH won't do it just now. Adorama doesn't seem to have a problem letting me add it to my cart. The Camera Store says it must be shipped as a hazardous material and will incur additional charges. Is this something new, or I have I been out of the loop for too long? Go to your local pharmacist or grocer and buy some spirit vinegar. Not malt. It's the same thing. Really?!?!? How would one go about diluting it? mike Simple white vinegar is usually 5% out of the bottle, you shouldn't have to dilute it. -- I can understand why mankind hasn't given up war. During a war you get to drive tanks through the sides of buildings and shoot foreigners - two things that are usually frowned on during peacetime. --P.J. O'Rourke
Re: OT Stop bath
The whole point of a stop bath is to neutralize the development process with an acidic environment in order to save the fixer. When I went to all one shot development chemistry for film 22 years ago (more consistency that way), I dispensed with it for film entirely. The spirit vinegar works fine for stop bath with prints. I did that for years until I stopped making darkroom prints. Godfrey
Re: OT Stop bath
Sure, go to any grocery store and get Pure white vinegar, it's just acidic acid and water. Probably fewer containments than if you mix your stop bath with tap water. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I don't know what kind of shipping restrictions there might be on stop bath. I just buy it at my local camera store. It's not very expensive. However, if you're in a rural area, I suppose that could be a problem. If I run out of stop bath, I just shorten my development time by about 10 seconds and use a 30-second water bath after the developer. The results seem identical, and the fixer life seems to be about the same. Not that I do bw developing at all these days, but I've been wondering since back when I *did* do it -- as a point of interest, is there any variety of vinegar pure enough to substitute or to prepare a substitute? since it's effectively the same chemical? ERNR -- I can understand why mankind hasn't given up war. During a war you get to drive tanks through the sides of buildings and shoot foreigners - two things that are usually frowned on during peacetime. --P.J. O'Rourke
Re: OT Stop bath
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Scott Loveless [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:39:47 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not that I do bw developing at all these days, but I've been wondering since back when I *did* do it -- as a point of interest, is there any variety of vinegar pure enough to substitute or to prepare a substitute? since it's effectively the same chemical? ERNR I just got an email off-list about this. Basically, the understanding is that white vinegar (spirit not malt) is about 4-5% acetic acid. A 1+1 dilution with distilled water should produce the proper strength for use. It's much less complicated than overpaying to ship stop bath. Rather wishing I'd known this several years ago, but oh well. You would lose the indicator that typically comes in stop bath, but I'm sure there's a workaround for that, too. Those nice indicator strips, maybe? Surely, not being liquid, those aren't hazardous :-) ERNR I believe you can buy the indicator separately. -- I can understand why mankind hasn't given up war. During a war you get to drive tanks through the sides of buildings and shoot foreigners - two things that are usually frowned on during peacetime. --P.J. O'Rourke
Re: OT Stop bath
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:09:47 -0500, Peter J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Simple white vinegar is usually 5% out of the bottle, you shouldn't have to dilute it. You are correct, sir. According to the MSDS from Kodak, indicator stop is between 1-5% acetic acid when properly diluted. The concentrate is 85-90% acid. Kodak says a 1:63 dilution. This means that if you properly dilute the stuff you should end up with a solution that is about 1.4% acid. Don't ask me where they learnt their cypherin', but I'm guessing Kodak's got some sloppy researchers mixing stop. Anyway, vinegar with 5% acid should be used 1+3 if you wanted to maintain Kodak's prefered dilution. -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com
Re: OT Stop bath
What's this, a filter for Photoshlop ? ;-) Actually that's not a bad idea. Hours of meddling with a pic, trying to get the best out of it, fussing with contrast, tweaking the colour - and then, Stop Bath - the new filter for Photoshop - locks the thing solid and prevents any more interference! The only way to continue is to open the original file and start all over again, groan. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
Re: OT Stop bath
A lot of this is rule of thumb engineering. Kodak is a repository of a lot of early research, which they've been refining for 100 years. I usually aim for about 3% myself. Scott Loveless wrote: On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:09:47 -0500, Peter J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Simple white vinegar is usually 5% out of the bottle, you shouldn't have to dilute it. You are correct, sir. According to the MSDS from Kodak, indicator stop is between 1-5% acetic acid when properly diluted. The concentrate is 85-90% acid. Kodak says a 1:63 dilution. This means that if you properly dilute the stuff you should end up with a solution that is about 1.4% acid. Don't ask me where they learnt their cypherin', but I'm guessing Kodak's got some sloppy researchers mixing stop. Anyway, vinegar with 5% acid should be used 1+3 if you wanted to maintain Kodak's prefered dilution. -- I can understand why mankind hasn't given up war. During a war you get to drive tanks through the sides of buildings and shoot foreigners - two things that are usually frowned on during peacetime. --P.J. O'Rourke
Re: OT Stop bath
You would lose the indicator that typically comes in stop bath, but I'm sure there's a workaround for that, too. Those nice indicator strips, maybe? Vinegar is cheap. If not sure dump it. I found my tongue worked well as a tester. One drop on the tongue then spit. If not a quite vinegary taste dump it. Powell
Re: OT Stop bath
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: back when I *did* do it -- as a point of interest, is there any variety of vinegar pure enough to substitute or to prepare a substitute? since it's effectively the same chemical? Glacial Aecetic acid is the concentrated acid (around 99% pure) commonly sold as stop bath, must be diluted before use, often initially to a 28% stock solution that is further diluted for use (approx 30:1). Vinegar is approx 4% acetic acid, it is fine for use as a stop bath, I'd probably try diluting it 1:1 with water. This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au
Re: OT Stop bath
Quoting Peter J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The most common is the same as acidic acid which is only concentrated vinegar, It'd be a funny sort of acid that wasn't acidic ;-) You must mean acetic, which is the vinegar/stop bath kind. This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au
Re: OT Stop bath
Scott Loveless wrote: On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:41:37 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Scott Loveless [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2005/03/21 Mon PM 02:44:04 GMT To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Subject: OT Stop bath Anybody know anything about shipping stop bath. BH won't do it just now. Adorama doesn't seem to have a problem letting me add it to my cart. The Camera Store says it must be shipped as a hazardous material and will incur additional charges. Is this something new, or I have I been out of the loop for too long? Go to your local pharmacist or grocer and buy some spirit vinegar. Not malt. It's the same thing. Really?!?!? How would one go about diluting it? I would just use it neat. It's only about 3-5% Ethanoic acid as a condiment, at most. If you must, dilute it by about 50%. As long as it is still acidic it will stop the reaction, for all practical purposes. The real photographic stop bath has an indicator in sometimes, to tell you when it's exhausted. That will only be litmus, or something like that. You can use your nose. Once it stops smelling like vinegar it will be knackered. Or your nose will be 8-))) m
Re: OT Stop bath
I ran into the same thing with Rodinal. BH won't ship it, Adorama will. The Hazmat charge was not much - a couple bucks IIRC. Using HC-110 and Rodinal and my main developers, it takes forever to go through stop bath. I do rinse first, then stop, then rise again - the only putative benefit of the stop being that it should prolong the pH of the hardener in the fixer (and now that Classic Pan has returned I'm returning to using a hardening fixer.) That said - I think I've mixed up something life 4 half gallons in the last 2 years, still using the old stock from my father's darkroom. But, it really depends on the developer - if you use D19 or the paper developer Dektol for film (formerly known as D72), it will neutralize the acetic acid very quickly, even with a rinse before the stop bath is applied. - MCC - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mark Cassino Photography Kalamazoo, MI www.markcassino.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Original Message - From: Scott Loveless [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 9:44 AM Subject: OT Stop bath Anybody know anything about shipping stop bath. BH won't do it just now. Adorama doesn't seem to have a problem letting me add it to my cart. The Camera Store says it must be shipped as a hazardous material and will incur additional charges. Is this something new, or I have I been out of the loop for too long? -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com
Re: OT Stop bath
Quoting mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You can use your nose. Once it stops smelling like vinegar it will be knackered. Or your nose will be 8-))) When I bought my first bottle of Glacial Acetic Acid I undid the top and held it under my nose and took a whiff to see if it really did smell like vinegar. Ten minutes later when I got my breath back and I realised I wasn't going to die I realised that was a mistake. Pure Acetic Acid is hazardous, treat it carefully as you would any other strong acid. -- Peter Williams This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au
Re: OT Stop bath
Damn spell checker... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Peter J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The most common is the same as acidic acid which is only concentrated vinegar, It'd be a funny sort of acid that wasn't acidic ;-) You must mean acetic, which is the vinegar/stop bath kind. This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au -- I can understand why mankind hasn't given up war. During a war you get to drive tanks through the sides of buildings and shoot foreigners - two things that are usually frowned on during peacetime. --P.J. O'Rourke
Re: OT Stop bath
prescription acetic acid and grocery acetic acid might contain additives that are harmless to people but not to prints, at least if you want them to last a while. i suggest that a plain water stop bath would be better as a substitute. Herb... - Original Message - From: Scott Loveless [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 11:06 AM Subject: Re: OT Stop bath Really?!?!? How would one go about diluting it?
Re: OT Stop bath
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You can use your nose. Once it stops smelling like vinegar it will be knackered. Or your nose will be 8-))) When I bought my first bottle of Glacial Acetic Acid I undid the top and held it under my nose and took a whiff to see if it really did smell like vinegar. Ten minutes later when I got my breath back and I realised I wasn't going to die I realised that was a mistake. Pure Acetic Acid is hazardous, treat it carefully as you would any other strong acid. Indeedy. I was referring to vinegar, the diluted form. Pure Ethanoic acid is also flammable. Personally, I wouldn't have it in the house. m
