Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On Jan 4, 2007, at 10:55 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: Cotty wrote: On 3/1/07, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: Note, I am not trying to add anything useful to this discourse. Mark. From the 2005 quotations list: This comment is not designed to add useful discourse. - William Robb Sounds like someone's on a sabbatical. - Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Digital Image Studio wrote: On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Digital Image Studio wrote: factor relative to FF 35mm ;-) keyword underscored. ...and? full frame is not a format name. It can be used as a format name only if supplemented by information which frame ? In citation above it is 35mm, or 135, and the crop factor is relative to full frame of 135 format. It annoys me that you people buy Canona marketing speach as if 135 was the only format used in photography. It might be for Canon users, but that's it. Some other vendors, most notable Pentax, venture in other formats. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/01/02 Tue PM 10:22:44 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Peter Fairweather wrote: Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter also nowhere else can you see pictures of his new baby... Birth of Ryan: 23 incredible shots in 51 seconds, only with my D200 and 18-200mm VR. shudder He links to this http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/71055999 from his site http://www.kenrockwell.com/gallery.htm I can't work out whether he knows it is a joke at his expense or if he takes it at, erm, face value. - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: full frame is not a format name. It can be used as a format name only if supplemented by information which frame ? In citation above it is 35mm, or 135, and the crop factor is relative to full frame of 135 format. It annoys me that you people buy Canona marketing speach as if 135 was the only format used in photography. It might be for Canon users, but that's it. Some other vendors, most notable Pentax, venture in other formats. Hmm, I think you may have more of a Canon fixation than many here, I'm just glad that they are actually doing it, they simply provide the proof that delivering a 24x36mm (is that better?) sensor is both viable and desirable. However If they provided a Canon body with K mount I'd have my cash out to exchange for product ;-) -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/3/07, mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/01/02 Tue PM 10:22:44 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Peter Fairweather wrote: Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter also nowhere else can you see pictures of his new baby... Birth of Ryan: 23 incredible shots in 51 seconds, only with my D200 and 18-200mm VR. shudder He links to this http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/71055999 from his site http://www.kenrockwell.com/gallery.htm I can't work out whether he knows it is a joke at his expense or if he takes it at, erm, face value. ROTFLMAO. He's probably blinded by his own greatness. Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Come on, dude, Canon EOS system was designed for 24x36mm format initially. When they state FULL FRAME its not too much to understand assume they mean the full 24x36mm, 35mm, 135 format, format frame. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bronek Kozicki Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 5:02 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Digital Image Studio wrote: On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Digital Image Studio wrote: factor relative to FF 35mm ;-) keyword underscored. ...and? full frame is not a format name. It can be used as a format name only if supplemented by information which frame ? In citation above it is 35mm, or 135, and the crop factor is relative to full frame of 135 format. It annoys me that you people buy Canona marketing speach as if 135 was the only format used in photography. It might be for Canon users, but that's it. Some other vendors, most notable Pentax, venture in other formats. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
they = who? Canon users or marketing? Then you are perfectly righ. But if they includes users of other systems, including medium format ones, then it becomes annoying. Pentax, opposite to Canon, is present in medium format market segment. There is no default 135 format, which is especially visible in DLSR market segment (as only Canon produces DSLR cameras in this format). B. Quoting J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Come on, dude, Canon EOS system was designed for 24x36mm format initially. When they state FULL FRAME its not too much to understand assume they mean the full 24x36mm, 35mm, 135 format, format frame. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bronek Kozicki Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 5:02 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Digital Image Studio wrote: On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Digital Image Studio wrote: factor relative to FF 35mm ;-) keyword underscored. ...and? full frame is not a format name. It can be used as a format name only if supplemented by information which frame ? In citation above it is 35mm, or 135, and the crop factor is relative to full frame of 135 format. It annoys me that you people buy Canona marketing speach as if 135 was the only format used in photography. It might be for Canon users, but that's it. Some other vendors, most notable Pentax, venture in other formats. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Your just arguing nomenclature. The majority of people on this list can't afford the current MF/LF digital bodies/backs, without selling their soul organs. So when someone refers to full frame digital, it's generally understood that they're talking 35mm full frame. Cheers, Dave On 1/3/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: they = who? Canon users or marketing? Then you are perfectly righ. But if they includes users of other systems, including medium format ones, then it becomes annoying. Pentax, opposite to Canon, is present in medium format market segment. There is no default 135 format, which is especially visible in DLSR market segment (as only Canon produces DSLR cameras in this format). B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
- Original Message - From: mike wilson Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D He links to this http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/71055999 from his site http://www.kenrockwell.com/gallery.htm I can't work out whether he knows it is a joke at his expense or if he takes it at, erm, face value. Why don't we put together a tribute to Kennyboy and see if we can get a link? William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
- Original Message - From: Bronek Kozicki Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D full frame is not a format name. I've always wondered what the crop factor was on my Pentax 6x7. Does anyone know what full frame is on 120? Note, I am not trying to add anything useful to this discourse. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
- Original Message - From: David Savage Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Your just arguing nomenclature. He's not the only person on list who argues nomenclature. I'd even hazzard a guess, without looking into my filtered emails, that I know who he is arguing with.. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Well, he certainly has an eye for color. mike wilson wrote: From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/01/02 Tue PM 10:22:44 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Peter Fairweather wrote: Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter also nowhere else can you see pictures of his new baby... Birth of Ryan: 23 incredible shots in 51 seconds, only with my D200 and 18-200mm VR. shudder He links to this http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/71055999 from his site http://www.kenrockwell.com/gallery.htm I can't work out whether he knows it is a joke at his expense or if he takes it at, erm, face value. - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/71055999 Looking again, I kind of like the rendition of the monarch, (Oh God I need professional help). mike wilson wrote: From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/01/02 Tue PM 10:22:44 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Peter Fairweather wrote: Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter also nowhere else can you see pictures of his new baby... Birth of Ryan: 23 incredible shots in 51 seconds, only with my D200 and 18-200mm VR. shudder He links to this http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/71055999 from his site http://www.kenrockwell.com/gallery.htm I can't work out whether he knows it is a joke at his expense or if he takes it at, erm, face value. - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Let's not fight over words. Tom C. From: Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 10:01:50 + Digital Image Studio wrote: On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Digital Image Studio wrote: factor relative to FF 35mm ;-) keyword underscored. ...and? full frame is not a format name. It can be used as a format name only if supplemented by information which frame ? In citation above it is 35mm, or 135, and the crop factor is relative to full frame of 135 format. It annoys me that you people buy Canona marketing speach as if 135 was the only format used in photography. It might be for Canon users, but that's it. Some other vendors, most notable Pentax, venture in other formats. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
120 is a film size, not a format. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Robb Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 11:06 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D - Original Message - From: Bronek Kozicki Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D full frame is not a format name. I've always wondered what the crop factor was on my Pentax 6x7. Does anyone know what full frame is on 120? Note, I am not trying to add anything useful to this discourse. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Quoting William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: - Original Message - From: David Savage Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Your just arguing nomenclature. He's not the only person on list who argues nomenclature. I'd even hazzard a guess, without looking into my filtered emails, that I know who he is arguing with.. Father, I sinned. I will try very hard not to do it again ;) B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Full frame would be Kodaks original format. would be 2 1/4 x 3 1/2 inches. They invented it. William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: Bronek Kozicki Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D full frame is not a format name. I've always wondered what the crop factor was on my Pentax 6x7. Does anyone know what full frame is on 120? Note, I am not trying to add anything useful to this discourse. William Robb -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
William Robb wrote: I'd even hazzard a guess, without looking into my filtered emails, that I know who he is arguing with.. Har! (Just looked at the unread count in my own Deleted bin...) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
The Monarch shot is good, if a little over-saturated. The road and treeline is a fun example of a blue/gold polarizer. The other two are crap. -Adam P. J. Alling wrote: http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/71055999 Looking again, I kind of like the rendition of the monarch, (Oh God I need professional help). mike wilson wrote: From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/01/02 Tue PM 10:22:44 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Peter Fairweather wrote: Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter also nowhere else can you see pictures of his new baby... Birth of Ryan: 23 incredible shots in 51 seconds, only with my D200 and 18-200mm VR. shudder He links to this http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/71055999 from his site http://www.kenrockwell.com/gallery.htm I can't work out whether he knows it is a joke at his expense or if he takes it at, erm, face value. - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/03/07 1:12 PM, Adam Maas, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Monarch shot is good, if a little over-saturated. The road and treeline is a fun example of a blue/gold polarizer. The other two are crap. Looking at the tree line and its edge, magic wand was used to make the sky look clear :-). Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 3/1/07, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: Note, I am not trying to add anything useful to this discourse. Mark. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Cotty wrote: On 3/1/07, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: Note, I am not trying to add anything useful to this discourse. Mark. From the 2005 quotations list: This comment is not designed to add useful discourse. - William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 3/1/07, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: Note, I am not trying to add anything useful to this discourse. Mark. From the 2005 quotations list: This comment is not designed to add useful discourse. - William Robb It appears to be a bit of a habit. ;-) Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 3/1/07, Mark Roberts, discombobulated, unleashed: From the 2005 quotations list: This comment is not designed to add useful discourse. - William Robb Smartass ;-) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
This page intentionally left blank Tom C. From: Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: pentax list PDML@pdml.net Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 22:26:08 + On 3/1/07, Mark Roberts, discombobulated, unleashed: From the 2005 quotations list: This comment is not designed to add useful discourse. - William Robb Smartass ;-) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Cotty wrote: On 3/1/07, Mark Roberts, discombobulated, unleashed: From the 2005 quotations list: This comment is not designed to add useful discourse. - William Robb Smartass ;-) Isn't he, though? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
This comment is not designed to add useful discourse. - William Robb Smartass ;-) Isn't he, though? rimshot -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 23:17:37 -, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: John Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If every other manufacture brings out a FF body Pentax will as well or they _will_ _die_. Simple as that. But the others won't. Simple as that. And actually it won't affect Pentax. Any full-frame bodies would be much more expensive, and therefore in a separate market segment that Pentax doesn't address. Canon would suffer from the competition, not Pentax. It will affect them to a certain extent, depending on the numbers. Most people aren't looking past the megapixel count. OTOH places like DPReview will trash APS-C cameras as soon as full frame becomes viable to the general market, probably in the next breath after trashing the full frame cameras for poor corner performance. As you have yourself often said, most people buy on price, and FF is always going to be substantially more expensive than APS-C. Whatever DPReview and Ken Rockwell say, price will ensure that APS-C remains dominant. I have finally got my hands on a K10D. Wonderful machine. But I got it mainly because I found the D to be too slow when shooting RAW in the studio. The pixel count made no difference. John -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
The price difference in absolute dollars between FF and APS has and will continue to drop. As it gets lower and lower, the benefit/(price difference) ratio will get too high to make APS attractive or maybe even eventually feasable. Thats why there are almost no more 1.3, 2.0 and 3.0 Mp point and shoots anymore. Simply not attractive/feasable anymore even though still cheaper to make than the 4.0 to 10.0 Mp models dominating the market. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Forbes Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 3:02 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 23:17:37 -, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: John Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If every other manufacture brings out a FF body Pentax will as well or they _will_ _die_. Simple as that. But the others won't. Simple as that. And actually it won't affect Pentax. Any full-frame bodies would be much more expensive, and therefore in a separate market segment that Pentax doesn't address. Canon would suffer from the competition, not Pentax. It will affect them to a certain extent, depending on the numbers. Most people aren't looking past the megapixel count. OTOH places like DPReview will trash APS-C cameras as soon as full frame becomes viable to the general market, probably in the next breath after trashing the full frame cameras for poor corner performance. As you have yourself often said, most people buy on price, and FF is always going to be substantially more expensive than APS-C. Whatever DPReview and Ken Rockwell say, price will ensure that APS-C remains dominant. I have finally got my hands on a K10D. Wonderful machine. But I got it mainly because I found the D to be too slow when shooting RAW in the studio. The pixel count made no difference. John -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The price difference in absolute dollars between FF and APS has and will continue to drop. As it gets lower and lower, the benefit/(price difference) ratio will get too high to make APS attractive or maybe even eventually feasable. Thats why there are almost no more 1.3, 2.0 and 3.0 Mp point and shoots anymore. Simply not attractive/feasable anymore even though still cheaper to make than the 4.0 to 10.0 Mp models dominating the market. The pertinent consideration of course is that the now defunct resolution sensors would have used a similar silicon area to those by which they were replaced. FF and APS sensors will always differ in price by at least the value of area of silicon that they utilize. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
This arrived in my inbox. I think it was meant to go to the list - Original Message - From: Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Quoting William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It will affect them to a certain extent, depending on the numbers. Most people aren't looking past the megapixel count. OTOH places like DPReview will trash APS-C cameras as soon as full frame becomes viable to the general market, probably in the next breath after trashing the full frame cameras for poor corner performance. has anyone seen full frame camera without severe vignetting with wide lenses? All big Canons suffer from this issue (to various degree), and apparently this is exactly why Leica M8 is cropped and not full frame. If Sony goes this way, it is only for marketing hype. And as we keep increasing sensor size, why not go twice as large, to 36x48 (cropped 645)? I do not think that manufacturing cost of such big sensor would exceed $1000 . B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This arrived in my inbox. I think it was meant to go to the list - Original Message - From: Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Quoting William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It will affect them to a certain extent, depending on the numbers. Most people aren't looking past the megapixel count. OTOH places like DPReview will trash APS-C cameras as soon as full frame becomes viable to the general market, probably in the next breath after trashing the full frame cameras for poor corner performance. has anyone seen full frame camera without severe vignetting with wide lenses? All big Canons suffer from this issue (to various degree), and apparently this is exactly why Leica M8 is cropped and not full frame. If Sony goes this way, it is only for marketing hype. And as we keep increasing sensor size, why not go twice as large, to 36x48 (cropped 645)? I do not think that manufacturing cost of such big sensor would exceed $1000 . B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. http://www.pbase.com/cameras/canon/eos_5d (only currently 281942 sample images) -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/2/07, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This arrived in my inbox. I think it was meant to go to the list - Original Message - From: Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D has anyone seen full frame camera without severe vignetting with wide lenses? All big Canons suffer from this issue (to various degree), and apparently this is exactly why Leica M8 is cropped and not full frame. If Sony goes this way, it is only for marketing hype. And as we keep increasing sensor size, why not go twice as large, to 36x48 (cropped 645)? I do not think that manufacturing cost of such big sensor would exceed $1000 . B. I've got some samples I took in store with a Canon 5D and EF 17-40mm f4 L lens. At 17mm 40mm there is vignetting, but it's easily treatable in the RAW converter. I think this says more about the lens than the camera IMO. Just my 0.02c Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
nelson HAHA! /nelson On 1/1/07, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AIIEEee. Not Ken Rockwell! Scott Loveless wrote: On 1/1/07, David J Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which is why i have not read a DP review thread in 12 months. i Prefer to ask those actally using the product what its like.:-) This guy has a great website: http://www.kenrockwell.com/ g -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com Shoot more film! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
From: Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/01/02 Tue PM 01:55:09 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D On 03/01/07, J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The price difference in absolute dollars between FF and APS has and will continue to drop. As it gets lower and lower, the benefit/(price difference) ratio will get too high to make APS attractive or maybe even eventually feasable. Thats why there are almost no more 1.3, 2.0 and 3.0 Mp point and shoots anymore. Simply not attractive/feasable anymore even though still cheaper to make than the 4.0 to 10.0 Mp models dominating the market. The pertinent consideration of course is that the now defunct resolution sensors would have used a similar silicon area to those by which they were replaced. FF and APS sensors will always differ in price by at least the value of area of silicon that they utilize. I estimate that differential to be about 0.32 Ukrainian Coupons. In other words, about 1/5th of sweet FA. - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Quoting David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 1/2/07, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got some samples I took in store with a Canon 5D and EF 17-40mm f4 L lens. At 17mm 40mm there is vignetting, but it's easily treatable in the RAW converter. I think this says more about the lens than the camera IMO. it tells about the whole system - light leaving lens is hitting sensor under steep angle, and microlenses are only able to focus part of this light on the silicon. This lens might be perfect on film, but sensor is sensitive to qualities that film won't notice. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. http://www.pbase.com/cameras/canon/eos_5d (only currently 281942 sample images) and how many from wide lenses ? B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Thats not the point, of course FF sensor will always cost more than a APS sensor, but if the absolute dollar value difference gets small enough, the APS is not going to be attractive or even feasible EVEN THOUGH IT COSTS LESS, because the benefits of FF will at some point swamp the cost savings of APS if the absolute dollar price difference continues to fall low enough. It's always about customer benefits vs product costs. This is what drives the market. THAT is why 1,2,3, MP PS digicams are nearly all gone, because the small cost savings to stay lo rez arent worth the benefit lost of not having higher rez. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Digital Image Studio Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 8:55 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D On 03/01/07, J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The price difference in absolute dollars between FF and APS has and will continue to drop. As it gets lower and lower, the benefit/(price difference) ratio will get too high to make APS attractive or maybe even eventually feasable. Thats why there are almost no more 1.3, 2.0 and 3.0 Mp point and shoots anymore. Simply not attractive/feasable anymore even though still cheaper to make than the 4.0 to 10.0 Mp models dominating the market. The pertinent consideration of course is that the now defunct resolution sensors would have used a similar silicon area to those by which they were replaced. FF and APS sensors will always differ in price by at least the value of area of silicon that they utilize. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/2/07, mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The pertinent consideration of course is that the now defunct resolution sensors would have used a similar silicon area to those by which they were replaced. FF and APS sensors will always differ in price by at least the value of area of silicon that they utilize. I estimate that differential to be about 0.32 Ukrainian Coupons. In other words, about 1/5th of sweet FA. 77mm f1.8 Ltd., that's a sweet FA. Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. Leica M8 is croppped, although not APS. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/2/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 1/2/07, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got some samples I took in store with a Canon 5D and EF 17-40mm f4 L lens. At 17mm 40mm there is vignetting, but it's easily treatable in the RAW converter. I think this says more about the lens than the camera IMO. it tells about the whole system - light leaving lens is hitting sensor under steep angle, and microlenses are only able to focus part of this light on the silicon. This lens might be perfect on film, but sensor is sensitive to qualities that film won't notice. So I take it your not a fan aft the 35mm full frame DSLR concept. Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The pertinent consideration of course is that the now defunct resolution sensors would have used a similar silicon area to those by which they were replaced. FF and APS sensors will always differ in price by at least the value of area of silicon that they utilize. Silicon is least part of price, it is yield that matters. And it drops exponentially with increase of size of sensor, thus making production expensive. Anyway, the cost should be dropping due to advances in chip production, but again I do not understand why stop at 24x36mm while 48x36mm is not really that much more expensive (as we already entered multi-thousand $ price region). There is nothing that makes 24x36mm sweet spot except for Canon's marketing strategy - they do not exists in MF market segment and using old lenses is the only upgrade path for their customers. The same logic might apply to Sony, but it does not to Pentax. Personally, it annoys me that people see whole DSLR market through pink glass of Canon marketing department. Given obvious issues with wide lenses and 24x36mm sensor I do not see it as attractive alternative to APS. Someone who does not use wide lenses might not care, but given that Pentax offer is especially strong at the wide end, it should matter for Pentax customers. In other words, would you buy 24x36mm DLSR from Pentax, if pictures it takes with your lovely 31/1.8 or 24/2 or 35/2 or 20-35 would look good only in the centre of frame? I certainly would not. There might be some ways around this problem, but I do not think it is viable now. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/2/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Someone who does not use wide lenses might not care, but given that Pentax offer is especially strong at the wide end, it should matter for Pentax customers. In other words, would you buy 24x36mm DLSR from Pentax, if pictures it takes with your lovely 31/1.8 or 24/2 or 35/2 or 20-35 would look good only in the centre of frame? That's what DSLR users are using now anyway. Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. http://www.pbase.com/cameras/canon/eos_5d (only currently 281942 sample images) and how many from wide lenses ? Plenty if you'd care to look, and only a handful of examples with vignetting as a keyword. http://www.pbase.com/dreamndigital/vignette It's just not the problem it's made out to be in most normal shooting circumstances. This reminds me how some people whine that the SMCP-A50/1.2 is soft and vignettes, sure it vignettes a little but when it's really needed wide open then vignetting is likely the photographers last concern. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/3/07, Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. http://www.pbase.com/cameras/canon/eos_5d (only currently 281942 sample images) and how many from wide lenses ? Plenty if you'd care to look, and only a handful of examples with vignetting as a keyword. http://www.pbase.com/dreamndigital/vignette It's just not the problem it's made out to be in most normal shooting circumstances. But it's a disaster if your a professional brick wall photographer. Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Silicon is least part of price, it is yield that matters. And it drops exponentially with increase of size of sensor, thus making production expensive. Grated, that's why I said at least, yields may be able to be improved (as they have been significantly of late though new wafer cleaning and handling techniques). Anyway, the cost should be dropping due to advances in chip production, but again I do not understand why stop at 24x36mm while 48x36mm is not really that much more expensive (as we already entered multi-thousand $ price region). There is nothing that makes 24x36mm sweet spot except for Canon's marketing strategy - they do not exists in MF market segment and using old lenses is the only upgrade path for their customers. The same logic might apply to Sony, but it does not to Pentax. Personally, it annoys me that people see whole DSLR market through pink glass of Canon marketing department. Given obvious issues with wide lenses and 24x36mm sensor I do not see it as attractive alternative to APS. Garbage, I see MF digital as a non-starter for me and a very high percentage of the users here. Apart from the likely price differential over a FF 35mm body the lenses are larger, slower, lower resolution (generally as I have owned and tested quite a few Pentax 645 lenses). I do however have a large collection of FF capable lenses which may or may not vignette significantly. Someone who does not use wide lenses might not care, but given that Pentax offer is especially strong at the wide end, it should matter for Pentax customers. In other words, would you buy 24x36mm DLSR from Pentax, if pictures it takes with your lovely 31/1.8 or 24/2 or 35/2 or 20-35 would look good only in the centre of frame? I certainly would not. There might be some ways around this problem, but I do not think it is viable now. I'm afraid that your argument is purely speculative, there is no proof as yet that any Pentax 35mm lenses perform poorly on FF sensors. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Quoting David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So I take it your not a fan aft the 35mm full frame DSLR concept. I am not. Or maybe this whole Canon propaganda just started p**ng me off. I came from 6x7 (Pentacon Six) and see nothing special in 135 format, except maybe balance of speed and quality for sport photographers and habit of many, many photographers. But habits can be challenged and sport photographers do not really care that much for image quality :-P B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/1/07, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AIIEEee. Not Ken Rockwell! Do we need a Ken Rockwell Rule similar to the Newsgroup Nazi Rule? :-) -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'm afraid that your argument is purely speculative, there is no proof as yet that any Pentax 35mm lenses perform poorly on FF sensors. The whole thread is purely speculative ;-P I'm not saying never, but currently Pentax seems to be heading in different direction. We will see. As for now, I'm buying both FA and DA lenses, depending on my immediate needs. And for those interested in best quality and high resolution, I'd suggest searching in ebay for 67 and 645 Pentax lenses - prices will soar later this year. And it is much less speculative prediction than the whole FF thingy. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And for those interested in best quality and high resolution, I'd suggest searching in ebay for 67 and 645 Pentax lenses - prices will soar later this year. And it is much less speculative prediction than the whole FF thingy. This assumes that the new company of which Pentax cameras is a but a small part will carry the P645D to production. Now that's speculation. And if you want the best quality and highest resolution in MF lenses, Pentax isn't the be all and end all IMHO. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/2/07, Doug Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/1/07, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AIIEEee. Not Ken Rockwell! Do we need a Ken Rockwell Rule similar to the Newsgroup Nazi Rule? :-) Yes, please. There is usually a bit of reservation before comparing someone to Hitler or calling them a Nazi. I imagine Ken Rockwell could be tossed about much more readily. This could end potentially nasty threads very early. On the other hand, if we actually follow the rules (yeah, right), this could make many threads very, very short. And we all like a thread that pokes fun at ol' Ken, don't we? So I've changed my mind. We should definitely not have a Ken Rockwell Rule. I'm gonna go read me an *istDS hands off review. ;) -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com Shoot more film! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Hell, many Canon WA lenses, (all WA lenses on 35mm to some extent, but Canon has some of the worst, and most expensive), were problematic on film as far as vignetting was concerned. Why would they be better on Digital? I think that Leica partly picked the 1.3x crop Kodak sensor so their price would be merely astronomical not US Federal Budget sized. William Robb wrote: This arrived in my inbox. I think it was meant to go to the list - Original Message - From: Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Quoting William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It will affect them to a certain extent, depending on the numbers. Most people aren't looking past the megapixel count. OTOH places like DPReview will trash APS-C cameras as soon as full frame becomes viable to the general market, probably in the next breath after trashing the full frame cameras for poor corner performance. has anyone seen full frame camera without severe vignetting with wide lenses? All big Canons suffer from this issue (to various degree), and apparently this is exactly why Leica M8 is cropped and not full frame. If Sony goes this way, it is only for marketing hype. And as we keep increasing sensor size, why not go twice as large, to 36x48 (cropped 645)? I do not think that manufacturing cost of such big sensor would exceed $1000 . B. -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
There is nothing that makes 24x36mm sweet spot except for Canon's marketing strategy and the huge supply of very good to brilliant existing lenses designed for that format. Bronek Kozicki wrote: Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The pertinent consideration of course is that the now defunct resolution sensors would have used a similar silicon area to those by which they were replaced. FF and APS sensors will always differ in price by at least the value of area of silicon that they utilize. Silicon is least part of price, it is yield that matters. And it drops exponentially with increase of size of sensor, thus making production expensive. Anyway, the cost should be dropping due to advances in chip production, but again I do not understand why stop at 24x36mm while 48x36mm is not really that much more expensive (as we already entered multi-thousand $ price region). There is nothing that makes 24x36mm sweet spot except for Canon's marketing strategy - they do not exists in MF market segment and using old lenses is the only upgrade path for their customers. The same logic might apply to Sony, but it does not to Pentax. Personally, it annoys me that people see whole DSLR market through pink glass of Canon marketing department. Given obvious issues with wide lenses and 24x36mm sensor I do not see it as attractive alternative to APS. Someone who does not use wide lenses might not care, but given that Pentax offer is especially strong at the wide end, it should matter for Pentax customers. In other words, would you buy 24x36mm DLSR from Pentax, if pictures it takes with your lovely 31/1.8 or 24/2 or 35/2 or 20-35 would look good only in the centre of frame? I certainly would not. There might be some ways around this problem, but I do not think it is viable now. B. -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
I am fond of APS-C but not despising FF. I am just satisfied with the current performance and compactness of gears of APS-C DSLR. And of course I have no intention whatsoever to bring out some $3,000 for essentially nothing more than just a camera. This might change if and when the cost/performance ratio becomes more convincing. BTW, this FF vs APS-C subject is a hot topic everywhere including of course Japan. What they call blind test is rampant. They exhibit images taken by various cameras including 5D (usually more than 5 images taken by different cameras) and see if anyone can tell the difference. This of course is more for an entertainment and no formal testing etc, and testing bases are not uniform, let alone they are all web images. For 5 or so games, no one so far could tell which was 5D images. This of course does not say anything about the performance of 5D (FF enthusiasts, don't get too excited about it. It's just a game :-). But it does tell some truth about the level of difference between APS-C and FF at the current state of the art in everyday shooting. And someone summarized their feeling by each brand faction Canon faction: I can't tell the difference from APS-C image even though I paid so much of my precious money. I have to cry. Sonyαfaction: Sony has lost credibility in manufacturing in recent years, so we will consider it AFTER they ever offer FF. Pentax faction: I can take excellent images without FF now. I do not need it. Nikon faction: Nikon tells us nothing, and why are we wasting time on FF fever? If you want 35mm FF, buy film cameras. So the debate continues. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/02/07 10:46 AM, Bronek Kozicki, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not saying never, but currently Pentax seems to be heading in different direction. We will see. As for now, I'm buying both FA and DA lenses, depending on my immediate needs. It is well known that Canon's lens line up is not particularly digital ready except their EF-S line which is APS-C compatible (smaller image circle). Pentax went through a pain of having to scrap almost entire lens line and now starting from scratch to make all their lenses digital compatible. They are pretty well covering WA range and will slowly move into longer FL, then we might see more DFA lines. When FF ever becomes popular, they can always offer FF WA. I am not sure about this myself but pentax is the only brand which is offering excellent primes in their digital ready lenses while everyone else (DX or EF-S) are all zooms (perhaps Sonyα is offering a couple of ultra expensive CZ lenses?). This tells Pentax is more serious in lining up digital ready lenses than anyone else, satisfying users' needs. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Listen to the new guy lecturing us. Interesting but we've been over this umpteen thousand times. Most of what you're saying is known to even the most technically obtuse on this list. Very good 35mm lenses work well on the Canon FF digital cameras. This is testified to by the number of Pentax and other manufacturers ultra wide lenses converted to EOS mount or used with an adapter by Canon shooters in spite of the obvious limitations imposed upon them by doing this. Your arguments are known. Your conclusions are suspect, and your mother dresses you funny. By the way welcome to the list. Bronek Kozicki wrote: Quoting David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 1/2/07, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got some samples I took in store with a Canon 5D and EF 17-40mm f4 L lens. At 17mm 40mm there is vignetting, but it's easily treatable in the RAW converter. I think this says more about the lens than the camera IMO. it tells about the whole system - light leaving lens is hitting sensor under steep angle, and microlenses are only able to focus part of this light on the silicon. This lens might be perfect on film, but sensor is sensitive to qualities that film won't notice. B. -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Yes, but it would be violated anyway. (Actually, now I feel violated, I'm off for a shower). Doug Franklin wrote: On 1/1/07, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AIIEEee. Not Ken Rockwell! Do we need a Ken Rockwell Rule similar to the Newsgroup Nazi Rule? :-) -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Digital Image Studio wrote: On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And for those interested in best quality and high resolution, I'd suggest searching in ebay for 67 and 645 Pentax lenses - prices will soar later this year. And it is much less speculative prediction than the whole FF thingy. This assumes that the new company of which Pentax cameras is a but a small part will carry the P645D to production. Now that's speculation. you seem to forgot that the new Hoya Pentax company will launch in October -- I'd be surprised if 645D does not go to market before this date, and I'd be shocked if it is pulled back with no good reason other than merger. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
P. J. Alling wrote: There is nothing that makes 24x36mm sweet spot except for Canon's marketing strategy and the huge supply of very good to brilliant existing lenses designed for that format. the point I was trying to make is that alghough these lenses loose their angle of view, they also seem to work better on APS than on FF B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
K.Takeshita wrote: On 1/02/07 10:46 AM, Bronek Kozicki, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not saying never, but currently Pentax seems to be heading in different direction. We will see. As for now, I'm buying both FA and DA lenses, depending on my immediate needs. It is well known that Canon's lens line up is not particularly digital ready except their EF-S line which is APS-C compatible (smaller image circle). Pentax went through a pain of having to scrap almost entire lens line and now starting from scratch to make all their lenses digital compatible. They are pretty well covering WA range and will slowly move into longer FL, then we might see more DFA lines. When FF ever becomes popular, they can always offer FF WA. I am not sure about this myself but pentax is the only brand which is offering excellent primes in their digital ready lenses while everyone else (DX or EF-S) are all zooms (perhaps Sonyα is offering a couple of ultra expensive CZ lenses?). This tells Pentax is more serious in lining up digital ready lenses than anyone else, satisfying users' needs. Ken Canon pretty much expects that anyone who will want primes is going to be shooting FF. Which, given the cost of their high-end primes, is a pretty good bet. EF-S for Canon is primarily a consumer solution and they're never going to introduce a large number of EF-S lenses. It took them long enough to realize that a pro-grade EF-S normal zoom for the 30D would be a good idea (the 17-55 f2.8 IS). Canon has been steadily upgrading their lens line for better performance on digital, but they're essentially committed to FF. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
P. J. Alling wrote: Your arguments are known. Your conclusions are suspect, and your mother dresses you funny. she does not ;-P and I'm not going to argue with you other points, as they might be true indeed. The fact is I'm just losing patience seeing discussion that could end up like whinning when Pentax will finally release full frame camera?!. There is no full frame to start with, it's just 135 format called by a different name invented by Canon marketing. And we, Pentax users, have some excellent digital lenses to enjoy that no other system has, now move on. By the way welcome to the list. thank you B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Bronek Kozicki wrote: Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The pertinent consideration of course is that the now defunct resolution sensors would have used a similar silicon area to those by which they were replaced. FF and APS sensors will always differ in price by at least the value of area of silicon that they utilize. Silicon is least part of price, it is yield that matters. And it drops exponentially with increase of size of sensor, thus making production expensive. Anyway, the cost should be dropping due to advances in chip production, but again I do not understand why stop at 24x36mm while 48x36mm is not really that much more expensive (as we already entered multi-thousand $ price region). There is nothing that makes 24x36mm sweet spot except for Canon's marketing strategy - they do not exists in MF market segment and using old lenses is the only upgrade path for their customers. The same logic might apply to Sony, but it does not to Pentax. Personally, it annoys me that people see whole DSLR market through pink glass of Canon marketing department. Given obvious issues with wide lenses and 24x36mm sensor I do not see it as attractive alternative to APS. Someone who does not use wide lenses might not care, but given that Pentax offer is especially strong at the wide end, it should matter for Pentax customers. In other words, would you buy 24x36mm DLSR from Pentax, if pictures it takes with your lovely 31/1.8 or 24/2 or 35/2 or 20-35 would look good only in the centre of frame? I certainly would not. There might be some ways around this problem, but I do not think it is viable now. B. Actually, there is one major reason that 24x36 dominates the larger sensor market. Lens availability. Since that is the traditional 35mm frame size, there's a far larger selection of lenses available than for larger sensor sizes which require use of a Medium Format mount. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On Jan 2, 2007, at 9:48 AM, Bronek Kozicki wrote: The fact is I'm just losing patience seeing discussion that could end up like whining when Pentax will finally release full frame camera?!. There is no full frame to start with, it's just 135 format called by a different name invented by Canon marketing. And we, Pentax users, have some excellent digital lenses to enjoy that no other system has, now move on. My feelings exactly. G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
I disagree. FF digital format is simply 24x36mm sensor. Its just as valid as APS digital, maybe even more so because the registration distance on most DSLRs today is just a left over from FF body designs so they could use legacy lenses and is not very efficient for the APS format. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Godfrey DiGiorgi Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 1:12 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D On Jan 2, 2007, at 9:48 AM, Bronek Kozicki wrote: The fact is I'm just losing patience seeing discussion that could end up like whining when Pentax will finally release full frame camera?!. There is no full frame to start with, it's just 135 format called by a different name invented by Canon marketing. And we, Pentax users, have some excellent digital lenses to enjoy that no other system has, now move on. My feelings exactly. G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Bronek Kozicki wrote: Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. Leica M8 is croppped, although not APS. B. Close to APS-H actually. About as close to that as DX format is to APS-C. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
That's not true, the Kodak chip is the same ratio as APS-C ~ 35mm ~ 6x9cm (2:3). APS-H (16:9) isn't even close. Geeze these numbers are published everywhere. Adam Maas wrote: Bronek Kozicki wrote: Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. Leica M8 is croppped, although not APS. B. Close to APS-H actually. About as close to that as DX format is to APS-C. -Adam -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, K.Takeshita [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What they call blind test is rampant. They exhibit images taken by various cameras including 5D (usually more than 5 images taken by different cameras) and see if anyone can tell the difference. This of course is more for an entertainment and no formal testing etc, and testing bases are not uniform, let alone they are all web images. For 5 or so games, no one so far could tell which was 5D images. This of course does not say anything about the performance of 5D (FF enthusiasts, don't get too excited about it. It's just a game :-). But it does tell some truth about the level of difference between APS-C and FF at the current state of the art in everyday shooting. And I'd bet that plenty of people couldn't tell the difference between a 7MP shot from a PS at ISO1600 vs a well processed RAW shot from a 5D at low ISO and others would claim to be able to differentiate between lower ISO settings on a 5D. It's just like the audio enthusiasts lists. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Yes, but the size is similar. -Adam P. J. Alling wrote: That's not true, the Kodak chip is the same ratio as APS-C ~ 35mm ~ 6x9cm (2:3). APS-H (16:9) isn't even close. Geeze these numbers are published everywhere. Adam Maas wrote: Bronek Kozicki wrote: Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. Leica M8 is croppped, although not APS. B. Close to APS-H actually. About as close to that as DX format is to APS-C. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you seem to forgot that the new Hoya Pentax company will launch in October -- I'd be surprised if 645D does not go to market before this date, and I'd be shocked if it is pulled back with no good reason other than merger. I think I'd fall off my chair if they actually manage to deliver the 645D before October (and it's pretty stable). -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: she does not ;-P and I'm not going to argue with you other points, as they might be true indeed. The fact is I'm just losing patience seeing discussion that could end up like whinning when Pentax will finally release full frame camera?!. There is no full frame to start with, it's just 135 format called by a different name invented by Canon marketing. And we, Pentax users, have some excellent digital lenses to enjoy that no other system has, now move on. You best let Pentax know as they still make DA lenses which are compatible with FF cameras and they quote their DSLRs as having a crop factor relative to FF 35mm ;-) -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Width maybe, but height is, (well at the sizes we're considering), much greater in the Kodak chip than in APS-H format. Adam Maas wrote: Yes, but the size is similar. -Adam P. J. Alling wrote: That's not true, the Kodak chip is the same ratio as APS-C ~ 35mm ~ 6x9cm (2:3). APS-H (16:9) isn't even close. Geeze these numbers are published everywhere. Adam Maas wrote: Bronek Kozicki wrote: Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. Leica M8 is croppped, although not APS. B. Close to APS-H actually. About as close to that as DX format is to APS-C. -Adam -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Digital Image Studio wrote: factor relative to FF 35mm ;-) keyword underscored. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Digital Image Studio wrote: factor relative to FF 35mm ;-) keyword underscored. ...and? -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 02/01/07, K.Takeshita [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There was an interview article with Nikon on FF subject. Among other things they said, they have been observing Canon 5D sales for a while but it never went beyond 5% of total DSLR sales. FF sensor cost in case of 5D is still over 6 times that of APS-C. Of that I have no doubt, but even if they are aggressively pricing their 5D ( as Adam suggests) I'd bet that they still make more profit per unit as a percentage than Pentax does on it's non-discounted lines. Nikon says that they are always watching the market demand but for now, they do not see FF cameras being popular. In the meantime, DX lenses (their DA equivalent) are becoming ever popular and settling almost as default DSLR format. Despite some speculations that their F mount is too small for FF DSLR, that is a myth. They have sufficient margin left for FF digital lenses. I'm sure it's true for Pentax too, the speculation that a wide mount is required to properly facilitate FF digital is indeed a myth. Just take a look at the size of the rear elements in many specially designed digital lenses, they are often but a fraction of the diameter of the mount. So, my guess is that before FF sensor cost comes down sufficiently, APS-C sensors design would have progress farther and satisfy the need of most demanding photographers. Besides, even if they offer FF DSLR, that does not at all mean that they suddenly discontinue APS-C lenses. I am sure they offer different sizes as two different formats, i.e., FF is NOT an upgrade to APS-C. Where does a digital MF body fit into this equation? I for one would much prefer compact size of DA lenses and bodies. I really don't believe that there is really nothing stopping lenses and bodies that will cover full 35mm frame from being much the same size as the current bodies and DA lenses (but for the case of some of the wide angles). -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Digital Image Studio wrote: On 02/01/07, K.Takeshita [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There was an interview article with Nikon on FF subject. Among other things they said, they have been observing Canon 5D sales for a while but it never went beyond 5% of total DSLR sales. FF sensor cost in case of 5D is still over 6 times that of APS-C. Of that I have no doubt, but even if they are aggressively pricing their 5D ( as Adam suggests) I'd bet that they still make more profit per unit as a percentage than Pentax does on it's non-discounted lines. I think that they may actually be loss-leading the 5D at the moment (given the massive rebates on it right now). It may be that they make more per unit on normal pricing than the K100D or K110D do (Given the very aggressive pricing in that space), I doubt the same applies to the K10D. The 5D hasn't been what I'd call a massive success for Canon. It's seriously eaten into 1DsmII sales due to being smaller, lighter and having better high-ISO performance and it doesn't insulate the gap in Canon's line between the pro bodies and the amateur bodies (Unlike the D200, the 5D simply doesn't offer the flat out speed or the toughness of a semi-pro body like the F100 or EOS 3, while the 30D doesn't quite either). It's certainly no failure though. Nikon says that they are always watching the market demand but for now, they do not see FF cameras being popular. In the meantime, DX lenses (their DA equivalent) are becoming ever popular and settling almost as default DSLR format. Despite some speculations that their F mount is too small for FF DSLR, that is a myth. They have sufficient margin left for FF digital lenses. I'm sure it's true for Pentax too, the speculation that a wide mount is required to properly facilitate FF digital is indeed a myth. Just take a look at the size of the rear elements in many specially designed digital lenses, they are often but a fraction of the diameter of the mount. So, my guess is that before FF sensor cost comes down sufficiently, APS-C sensors design would have progress farther and satisfy the need of most demanding photographers. Besides, even if they offer FF DSLR, that does not at all mean that they suddenly discontinue APS-C lenses. I am sure they offer different sizes as two different formats, i.e., FF is NOT an upgrade to APS-C. Where does a digital MF body fit into this equation? 3rd format, really the equivalent of LF in the film world (Expensive, slow and extremely high resolution) while 35mm FF replaces MF and DX format replaces 35mm. I for one would much prefer compact size of DA lenses and bodies. I really don't believe that there is really nothing stopping lenses and bodies that will cover full 35mm frame from being much the same size as the current bodies and DA lenses (but for the case of some of the wide angles). I'd tend to agree here, with the exception of wide-angles of course. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Peter Fairweather wrote: Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter also nowhere else can you see pictures of his new baby... Birth of Ryan: 23 incredible shots in 51 seconds, only with my D200 and 18-200mm VR. shudder -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
I don't have to be cruel to or about Ken Rockwell, he has himself for that. Peter Fairweather wrote: Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
FF vs APS-C (was Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D)
Hi Rob, My comments iin-line. Ken On 1/02/07 5:10 PM, Digital Image Studio, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 02/01/07, K.Takeshita [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There was an interview article with Nikon on FF subject. Among other things they said, they have been observing Canon 5D sales for a while but it never went beyond 5% of total DSLR sales. FF sensor cost in case of 5D is still over 6 times that of APS-C. Of that I have no doubt, but even if they are aggressively pricing their 5D ( as Adam suggests) I'd bet that they still make more profit per unit as a percentage than Pentax does on it's non-discounted lines. I hear the same thing that Adam said. From the cost of FF sensor (fairly well published), I cannot see 5D making much profit, but I would not argue that 5D had higher margin than K10D. But this is similar to higher margin on larger cars, plus 5D has no competition now. But how much it is contributing financially to Canon is another story. They are not selling enough numbers. Re Pentax, I would suppose their margin level is compatible (plus or minus) with similar models. It is not a top end model that they can put higher margin. But obviously, it is contributing to Pentax financially (since K100D) and that's the only important thing :-). Nikon says that they are always watching the market demand but for now, they do not see FF cameras being popular. In the meantime, DX lenses (their DA equivalent) are becoming ever popular and settling almost as default DSLR format. Despite some speculations that their F mount is too small for FF DSLR, that is a myth. They have sufficient margin left for FF digital lenses. I'm sure it's true for Pentax too, the speculation that a wide mount is required to properly facilitate FF digital is indeed a myth. Just take a look at the size of the rear elements in many specially designed digital lenses, they are often but a fraction of the diameter of the mount. True. Nikon specifically listed some of their lenses to prove it. So, my guess is that before FF sensor cost comes down sufficiently, APS-C sensors design would have progress farther and satisfy the need of most demanding photographers. Besides, even if they offer FF DSLR, that does not at all mean that they suddenly discontinue APS-C lenses. I am sure they offer different sizes as two different formats, i.e., FF is NOT an upgrade to APS-C. Where does a digital MF body fit into this equation? I do not know and I am not knowledgeable about it. But from what I hear, one of the things which differentiate pentax from others is the existence of 645/67, i.e., pretty much a full line maker. There is a surprisingly strong underlining market demand for 645D which Pentax wish to respond. And also, there are so many of their 645 lenses around. They can position 645D as their professional line, which it is, but it is not 35mm. There is a large market who has millions of K mount lenses and if FF ever becomes necessity, I would think that pentax would make a decision irrespective of 645D. When C 9and N too) are trying to enter into the traditional MF market with FF DSLR, including mom and pap portrait studio (besides filed photographers), Pentax would not ignore such move. But I do not know which (FF or improved APS) would be more popular by then :-). I for one would much prefer compact size of DA lenses and bodies. I really don't believe that there is really nothing stopping lenses and bodies that will cover full 35mm frame from being much the same size as the current bodies and DA lenses (but for the case of some of the wide angles). Yes, it only affects on longer FL, but it's only for lenses. Bodies will remain big (relatively) because of film size mirror box etc (which many makers have been using for APS DSLR as well). Dedicated APS DSLR bodies would be kept compact. And then, when EVF becomes a usable proposition... :-). Anyway, my take is, while APS-C sensor is the product of accident (so to speak), it fits well the current DSLR design and might become the default standard. At least Pentax (and possibly Nikon) seem to think so. They can have Canon spend money and explore the market potential. When needed, there are many suppliers of good FF size sensors (at cost now). And CCD might be shifting from Bayer array to multilayer structure (Fuji. There are many who want Fuji and Nikon merge) by then. It's a bit volatile for anyone to venture into FF, I suppose. But then, current Pentax offering is excellent and I do not even think about FF. No need for it for my purpose anyway (and I am not a pixel peeper either). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that they may actually be loss-leading the 5D at the moment (given the massive rebates on it right now). It may be that they make more per unit on normal pricing than the K100D or K110D do (Given the very aggressive pricing in that space), I doubt the same applies to the K10D. The 5D hasn't been what I'd call a massive success for Canon. It's seriously eaten into 1DsmII sales due to being smaller, lighter and having better high-ISO performance and it doesn't insulate the gap in Canon's line between the pro bodies and the amateur bodies (Unlike the D200, the 5D simply doesn't offer the flat out speed or the toughness of a semi-pro body like the F100 or EOS 3, while the 30D doesn't quite either). It's certainly no failure though. If it is a loss leader it's a good one, even if it's taken away sales from high end bodies I'm sure it's been taken on as a back-up FF body by many 1Dx owners and it's probably brought a whole lot more punters into the FF mind set who just couldn't afford the cost of the 1Dx series bodies. 3rd format, really the equivalent of LF in the film world (Expensive, slow and extremely high resolution) while 35mm FF replaces MF and DX format replaces 35mm. You've hit the nail on the head and it's what most people fail to appreciate. This is why FF 35mm is attractive to me, I already have lenses and at a pinch, I could, for most purposes, retire my MF film kit. I've never been interested in LF photography so MF DLSRs are overkill for me. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Fairweather Sent: 02 January 2007 22:04 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter I've always thought of him as a kind of super-charged version of Ace Smoke me a kipper, I'll be home for breakfast! Rimmer, with bigger balls and a better tan. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've always thought of him as a kind of super-charged version of Ace Smoke me a kipper, I'll be home for breakfast! Rimmer, with bigger balls and a better tan. That's ridiculously complimentary... for Ken ;-) -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 2/1/07, David Savage, discombobulated, unleashed: But labeling the discussion as stupid horsepucky by inference anyone taking part in it is a stupid shit. You rang? -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/2/07, Peter Fairweather [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Oh, sure! Take his side. -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com Shoot more film! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
- Original Message - From: John Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have finally got my hands on a K10D. Wonderful machine. But I got it mainly because I found the D to be too slow when shooting RAW in the studio. The pixel count made no difference. John Hah! Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:31:13 -, Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Again, I am not trying to say that DA lenses are not good. I am saying that FA Limited are excellent enough for me. They may be excellent enough, but are they available in the focal lengths you require? (The answer, of course, is No). And if you shoot little film, you won't miss much by not being able to use your nice DA 21mm on a film body. And if you really believe that Pentax is going to bring out a full-frame digital, then you need to recalibrate your reality grasp. Currently it is excessively skewed in the direction of wishful thinking. John -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Hi! They may be excellent enough, but are they available in the focal lengths you require? (The answer, of course, is No). John, do you really *know* what focal lengths I do require? And if you shoot little film, you won't miss much by not being able to use your nice DA 21mm on a film body. That's correct. And if you really believe that Pentax is going to bring out a full-frame digital, then you need to recalibrate your reality grasp. Currently it is excessively skewed in the direction of wishful thinking. According to the time line published on DPReview, Canon introduced D30 in April 2000. Pentax introduced *istD in Feb 2003. Did we really believe that Pentax was going to introduce DSLR between Apr 2000 and Feb 2003? I don't want to provoke a heated debate here. However, I find no skew neither with my reality grasp nor with reality grasp of Godfrey who has different opinion. Neither you, nor Godfrey, nor I for that matter can foresee the future. We can make assumptions. Assumption is something that you either accept or you don't. Either way, live goes on, doesn't it? -- Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
If every other manufacture brings out a FF body Pentax will as well or they _will_ _die_. Simple as that. John Forbes wrote: On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:31:13 -, Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Again, I am not trying to say that DA lenses are not good. I am saying that FA Limited are excellent enough for me. They may be excellent enough, but are they available in the focal lengths you require? (The answer, of course, is No). And if you shoot little film, you won't miss much by not being able to use your nice DA 21mm on a film body. And if you really believe that Pentax is going to bring out a full-frame digital, then you need to recalibrate your reality grasp. Currently it is excessively skewed in the direction of wishful thinking. John -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Digital Image Studio wrote: On 01/01/07, mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The limit is that the pixel sites on the sensor have a definite depth to them, rather like millions of bogroll tubes bundled together. Great analogy but only half the problem as photo-sites get smaller :-) My New Year resolution is must do better. 8-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/1/07, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If every other manufacture brings out a FF body Pentax will as well or they _will_ _die_. Simple as that. Indeed, P.J., I still have much to learn about English :-). And how exactly do I cut my natural wordiness? ;-) -- Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On Jan 1, 2007, at 8:17 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: Indeed, P.J., I still have much to learn about English :-). And how exactly do I cut my natural wordiness? ;-) Type less, take more pictures. G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/1/07, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 1, 2007, at 8:17 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: Indeed, P.J., I still have much to learn about English :-). And how exactly do I cut my natural wordiness? ;-) Type less, take more pictures. LOL. I most definitely agree. -- Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 15:28:26 -, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If every other manufacture brings out a FF body Pentax will as well or they _will_ _die_. Simple as that. But the others won't. Simple as that. And actually it won't affect Pentax. Any full-frame bodies would be much more expensive, and therefore in a separate market segment that Pentax doesn't address. Canon would suffer from the competition, not Pentax. John John Forbes wrote: On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:31:13 -, Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Again, I am not trying to say that DA lenses are not good. I am saying that FA Limited are excellent enough for me. They may be excellent enough, but are they available in the focal lengths you require? (The answer, of course, is No). And if you shoot little film, you won't miss much by not being able to use your nice DA 21mm on a film body. And if you really believe that Pentax is going to bring out a full-frame digital, then you need to recalibrate your reality grasp. Currently it is excessively skewed in the direction of wishful thinking. John -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
why do you think they won't bring out a ff body? And why would it be so much more expensive? If they get down to the price level which would allow the non-professional makers (ie not Canon or Nikon) to use them, then I imagine they'll be about the same price as smaller sensors, no? -- Bob If every other manufacture brings out a FF body Pentax will as well or they _will_ _die_. Simple as that. But the others won't. Simple as that. And actually it won't affect Pentax. Any full-frame bodies would be much more expensive, and therefore in a separate market segment that Pentax doesn't address. Canon would suffer from the competition, not Pentax. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
I dont agree, when better products come out it often doesn't matter that even cheaper ones can still be made. Look at the digital PS market, there are virtually no more 1.3, 2.0 3.0 Mpixel models left at all, even though they would be cheaper than the current bottom line 4 Mp models. The market drives these discontinuations, EVEN if it's cheaper to make and sell the smaller lower Mp sensors. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Forbes Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 1:45 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 15:28:26 -, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If every other manufacture brings out a FF body Pentax will as well or they _will_ _die_. Simple as that. But the others won't. Simple as that. And actually it won't affect Pentax. Any full-frame bodies would be much more expensive, and therefore in a separate market segment that Pentax doesn't address. Canon would suffer from the competition, not Pentax. John John Forbes wrote: On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:31:13 -, Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Again, I am not trying to say that DA lenses are not good. I am saying that FA Limited are excellent enough for me. They may be excellent enough, but are they available in the focal lengths you require? (The answer, of course, is No). And if you shoot little film, you won't miss much by not being able to use your nice DA 21mm on a film body. And if you really believe that Pentax is going to bring out a full-frame digital, then you need to recalibrate your reality grasp. Currently it is excessively skewed in the direction of wishful thinking. John -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/01/07 1:45 PM, John Forbes, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If every other manufacture brings out a FF body Pentax will as well or they _will_ _die_. Simple as that. But the others won't. Simple as that. And actually it won't affect Pentax. Any full-frame bodies would be much more expensive, and therefore in a separate market segment that Pentax doesn't address. Canon would suffer from the competition, not Pentax. There was an interview article with Nikon on FF subject. Among other things they said, they have been observing Canon 5D sales for a while but it never went beyond 5% of total DSLR sales. FF sensor cost in case of 5D is still over 6 times that of APS-C. Nikon says that they are always watching the market demand but for now, they do not see FF cameras being popular. In the meantime, DX lenses (their DA equivalent) are becoming ever popular and settling almost as default DSLR format. Despite some speculations that their F mount is too small for FF DSLR, that is a myth. They have sufficient margin left for FF digital lenses. So, my guess is that before FF sensor cost comes down sufficiently, APS-C sensors design would have progress farther and satisfy the need of most demanding photographers. Besides, even if they offer FF DSLR, that does not at all mean that they suddenly discontinue APS-C lenses. I am sure they offer different sizes as two different formats, i.e., FF is NOT an upgrade to APS-C. I for one would much prefer compact size of DA lenses and bodies. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Believe what you will, you obviously haven't been paying attention to the marketing :need for an upgrade path. (Something often cited on this list as well). John Forbes wrote: On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 15:28:26 -, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If every other manufacture brings out a FF body Pentax will as well or they _will_ _die_. Simple as that. But the others won't. Simple as that. And actually it won't affect Pentax. Any full-frame bodies would be much more expensive, and therefore in a separate market segment that Pentax doesn't address. Canon would suffer from the competition, not Pentax. John John Forbes wrote: On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:31:13 -, Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Again, I am not trying to say that DA lenses are not good. I am saying that FA Limited are excellent enough for me. They may be excellent enough, but are they available in the focal lengths you require? (The answer, of course, is No). And if you shoot little film, you won't miss much by not being able to use your nice DA 21mm on a film body. And if you really believe that Pentax is going to bring out a full-frame digital, then you need to recalibrate your reality grasp. Currently it is excessively skewed in the direction of wishful thinking. John -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
APS-C cannot, unfortunately, satisfy the most demanding photographers. Pentax has already run up against the noise barrier with the K10D. They've been forced to abandon 3200 ISO sensitivity. (Nikon's choice was to use extremely strong noise reduction, with loss of detail). We're dealing with a law of physics here. K.Takeshita wrote: On 1/01/07 1:45 PM, John Forbes, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If every other manufacture brings out a FF body Pentax will as well or they _will_ _die_. Simple as that. But the others won't. Simple as that. And actually it won't affect Pentax. Any full-frame bodies would be much more expensive, and therefore in a separate market segment that Pentax doesn't address. Canon would suffer from the competition, not Pentax. There was an interview article with Nikon on FF subject. Among other things they said, they have been observing Canon 5D sales for a while but it never went beyond 5% of total DSLR sales. FF sensor cost in case of 5D is still over 6 times that of APS-C. Nikon says that they are always watching the market demand but for now, they do not see FF cameras being popular. In the meantime, DX lenses (their DA equivalent) are becoming ever popular and settling almost as default DSLR format. Despite some speculations that their F mount is too small for FF DSLR, that is a myth. They have sufficient margin left for FF digital lenses. So, my guess is that before FF sensor cost comes down sufficiently, APS-C sensors design would have progress farther and satisfy the need of most demanding photographers. Besides, even if they offer FF DSLR, that does not at all mean that they suddenly discontinue APS-C lenses. I am sure they offer different sizes as two different formats, i.e., FF is NOT an upgrade to APS-C. I for one would much prefer compact size of DA lenses and bodies. Ken -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Economics. Sensor cost is relative to area. This is because there's a fixed size to the silicon wafers that sensors are made from (which affects yields [the number of usable sensors per wafer], as one minor issue is enough to make a sensor useless). The wafers cost a set amount, so the cost of a Sensor is relative to how many usable sensors one can make per wafer. One can make 3-4x as many DX format sensors as FF sensors, and yield is inherently higher as the number of errors is relatively fixed. Last i heard, yields on the 5D sensor were around 70% (a significant improvement over what they were when the 1DsmII was introduced, which was 25% or so), yields on DX format sensors are at the 90%+ range. So the difference in the number of sensors per wafer is even larger (since you're writing off about the same number of sensors per wafer, but you're making far more DX sensors per wafer) So DX format sensors are MUCH cheaper than FF sensors. Note the cost difference between the Canon 5D and 30D, which are essentially the same camera apart from the sensor and prism. And Canon has been attempting to drive down the cost on the 5D aggressively due to competition from the cheaper and more capable Nikon D200. It's still a $2600 camera, to the $1200 or so a 30D costs (with much less pricing pressure). Most of that cost difference is in the sensor. FF is not going to cost comeptetive with DX. Ever. Simply because even if you can make a $100 FF sensor, you can use the same technology to make a $10 DX sensor. -Adam Bob W wrote: why do you think they won't bring out a ff body? And why would it be so much more expensive? If they get down to the price level which would allow the non-professional makers (ie not Canon or Nikon) to use them, then I imagine they'll be about the same price as smaller sensors, no? -- Bob If every other manufacture brings out a FF body Pentax will as well or they _will_ _die_. Simple as that. But the others won't. Simple as that. And actually it won't affect Pentax. Any full-frame bodies would be much more expensive, and therefore in a separate market segment that Pentax doesn't address. Canon would suffer from the competition, not Pentax. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/01/07 2:35 PM, P. J. Alling, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: APS-C cannot, unfortunately, satisfy the most demanding photographers. Pentax has already run up against the noise barrier with the K10D. They've been forced to abandon 3200 ISO sensitivity. (Nikon's choice was to use extremely strong noise reduction, with loss of detail). We're dealing with a law of physics here. Well, that's Nikon's word, not mine :-). However, if you look at the pixel pitch of Canon's sensors, it's not particularly large and it's even getting smaller as they increase MP over the same sensor size. So, I do not know, but Nikon seem to be saying that over time, current issues with APS size sensors would be solved and farther improved. Just like film, the larger the better principle begins to come into the equation. So, if one wants a larger sensor, go to 645 is also a valid point, just like film. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
