Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
In a message dated 8/21/2007 8:55:36 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It's funny that all the hundrdes of 1000's of Digital Rebel owners don't seem to be complaining. There must be something about the camera that makes up for it. Tom C. === The viewfinder isn't that bad, although I have the original Digital Rebel, the 300D. I think it has a better viewfinder than the subsequent rebels did (I didn't find the *istDS viewfinder a lot better). It's a good camera; I like it. Although the buffer, like on the *istD, is too small. I have found it easy to use, intuitive enough (I don't use program modes, naturally), and it takes good pictures. Canon, as a company, doesn't do well JUST by good marketing. Though, of course, that helps. I have no preference between the K100D (which I have now) and the 300D. They are both good cameras. Marnie aka Doe :-) - Warning: I am now filtering my email, so you may be censored. ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
On 9/3/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have no preference between the K100D (which I have now) and the 300D. They are both good cameras. Yeah but...but...Pentax has better lenses! g,dr Cheers, Dave. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
Not quite the same, Cory. For operation of the current DSLRs, the cycle of activity starts with the mirror down, sensor initialized and ready to go. For a Live View mode, the shutter has to be closed, the sensor reset to the capture mode, and then the exposure cycle started. If in continuous capture mode, the shutter is cycled as normal and then, at end, the sensor is reset to the real time capture mode, the shutter reopened, etc etc. There are also implications regards the focusing system and several other possible system interactions involved. There are both hardware electronics and mechanical implications to all of this. It's not ... just programming ... as you casually suggested. Nor is it free. Unless there is a physical, mechanical linkage between the mirror, shutter, and focus motor (unlikely). All of that is done via software control. Thus, it in fact is, just programming. There are a lot of details to consider in such programming, but aside from writing the routines to control the sensor in live capture mode, process them quicker, and display on the screen quicker, the rest of the routines are already primarily written. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
Well I just came back from a long sunny weekend at the races in Virginia and the LCD was nearly useless for anything but text. I tried hats, umbrellas, dug a hole, etc. My friend is in Scotland for the summer and she uses her LCD all the time. Maybe that British weather is useful for something after all. vbg Seriously, is there a good LCD hood out there that does make the optical viewfinder hard to use?. I knew someone with a hood on a Fuji DSLR and it was really awkward. Steve -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
On Aug 23, 2007, at 5:33 AM, Cory Papenfuss wrote: ... Unless there is a physical, mechanical linkage between the mirror, shutter, and focus motor (unlikely). ... In Pentax DSLR cameras, the operation of the iris actuation, mirror and shutter mechanisms are mechanically linked very tightly together. The iris actuation system can operate as a partial cycle for DoF Preview, but flipping the mirror up and operating the shutter requires the complete cycle to operate. To do anything else requires a mechanical redesign. This is one of the reasons why current Pentax DSLRs support a mirror pre-fire operation but not a mirror lock up mode. The focusing system is mechanically separate. So it's not just programming. Capisco? Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
I more usually need a shade to see through the optical finder of my SLR cameras as, with glasses, light leaking around the finder in sunny circumstances makes it harder to see the image and information display than an LCD display using my hand as a shade. In extreme situations, however, a Hoodman LCD viewing loupe is a godsend for tripod work. G On Aug 23, 2007, at 6:26 AM, Steve Desjardins wrote: Well I just came back from a long sunny weekend at the races in Virginia and the LCD was nearly useless for anything but text. I tried hats, umbrellas, dug a hole, etc. My friend is in Scotland for the summer and she uses her LCD all the time. Maybe that British weather is useful for something after all. vbg Seriously, is there a good LCD hood out there that does make the optical viewfinder hard to use?. I knew someone with a hood on a Fuji DSLR and it was really awkward. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
... Unless there is a physical, mechanical linkage between the mirror, shutter, and focus motor (unlikely). ... In Pentax DSLR cameras, the operation of the iris actuation, mirror and shutter mechanisms are mechanically linked very tightly together. The iris actuation system can operate as a partial cycle for DoF Preview, but flipping the mirror up and operating the shutter requires the complete cycle to operate. To do anything else requires a mechanical redesign. This is one of the reasons why current Pentax DSLRs support a mirror pre-fire operation but not a mirror lock up mode. The focusing system is mechanically separate. So it's not just programming. Capisco? Godfrey I stand corrected on the mechanical interconnects. Cheers, -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
Maybe I would adapt, but for me most situations are either too fast to be checking the LCD or slow enough to just pop off a few shots and look. I usually check the histogram once I get in a new lighting situation or if I think the meter can't handle it. I have the enlarge button set to the max so I can check AF if that's an issue. Mostly, however, I want to spend my time looking through that nice optical viewfinder I paid so much money to get. I've used EVF cameras and they work fine for everything except MF. I guess if you had a continuous histogram on the LCD you could easily sneak a peek and b sure about your exposure but that could also be one more thing to obsess over. Maybe a tiny histogram in the corner of the viewfinder? I also wonder how the batteries would hold up. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
With the capability of Live View and MF Assist, you have your choice to use what's appropriate when you want to, that's all. If you've never used a camera that has the facility, you can't know how it will be useful to you ... it is a paradigm shift. Regards battery life: The Panasonic L1 has a 1500 mAh rated battery. On a recent landscape shoot I used the camera on a tripod in Live View mode exclusively. I recorded about 650 exposures per fully charged battery. Without Live View enabled, I get about 750 exposures per charge. So it's fairly efficient on power management. Godfrey On Aug 22, 2007, at 5:10 AM, Steve Desjardins wrote: Maybe I would adapt, but for me most situations are either too fast to be checking the LCD or slow enough to just pop off a few shots and look. I usually check the histogram once I get in a new lighting situation or if I think the meter can't handle it. I have the enlarge button set to the max so I can check AF if that's an issue. Mostly, however, I want to spend my time looking through that nice optical viewfinder I paid so much money to get. I've used EVF cameras and they work fine for everything except MF. I guess if you had a continuous histogram on the LCD you could easily sneak a peek and b sure about your exposure but that could also be one more thing to obsess over. Maybe a tiny histogram in the corner of the viewfinder? I also wonder how the batteries would hold up. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: With the capability of Live View and MF Assist, you have your choice to use what's appropriate when you want to, that's all. If you've never used a camera that has the facility, you can't know how it will be useful to you ... it is a paradigm shift. Regards battery life: The Panasonic L1 has a 1500 mAh rated battery. On a recent landscape shoot I used the camera on a tripod in Live View mode exclusively. I recorded about 650 exposures per fully charged battery. Without Live View enabled, I get about 750 exposures per charge. So it's fairly efficient on power management. Godfrey Not to pick nits here, but 1500mAh is not a measure of battery energy capacity unless the voltage is known. It's similar to saying My car gets 35 miles per. If the gallon are understood (e.g. AA NiMH chemistry), it's a good way of comparing similar products. If it happens to be liter, quart, cup, barrel, etc, (e.g. multiple Lithium cells stacked together), its useless in comparing capacities. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
A lot of the new point 'n shoot digitals don't even have a viewfinder anymore. The only way you can compose the image is to look at the little TV screen on the back. Yes, they're just great with daylight coming from behind you, much the same reason the K10D screen based menu settings are less appealing in a country where sunlight is abundant and clouds are sparse. Rob Studdert - Much of photographic display technology in recent decades has left out those of us who live and shoot in sunny places. I find in-viewfinder displays useless for much of my daylight shooting. I'm sure it doesn't help that I wear glasses. Camera companies should send their display designers to live in the Sahara, or some such place, and make them wear glasses whether they need to or not. Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
On Aug 22, 2007, at 6:43 AM, Cory Papenfuss wrote: Not to pick nits here, but 1500mAh is not a measure of battery energy capacity unless the voltage is known. It's similar to saying My car gets 35 miles per. If the gallon are understood (e.g. AA NiMH chemistry), it's a good way of comparing similar products. If it happens to be liter, quart, cup, barrel, etc, (e.g. multiple Lithium cells stacked together), its useless in comparing capacities. You excel at picking nits. It's unimportant, Cory. What's important is that the differential between shooting with the Live View enabled vs the optical finder alone is not that enormous. If the minutiae of the battery specification is that important to you, you could have looked it up easily: The Panasonic takes a CGR-S603A battery, 7.2V, rated 1500 mAh. For comparison sake, the Pentax K10D's supplied LI50 battery is 7.4V, rated 1700 mAh. My current records show that I get an average around 925 exposures per full charge with it. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
On Aug 22, 2007, at 8:07 AM, Joseph Tainter wrote: A lot of the new point 'n shoot digitals don't even have a viewfinder anymore. The only way you can compose the image is to look at the little TV screen on the back. Yes, they're just great with daylight coming from behind you, much the same reason the K10D screen based menu settings are less appealing in a country where sunlight is abundant and clouds are sparse. Much of photographic display technology in recent decades has left out those of us who live and shoot in sunny places. I find in-viewfinder displays useless for much of my daylight shooting. I'm sure it doesn't help that I wear glasses. Camera companies should send their display designers to live in the Sahara, or some such place, and make them wear glasses whether they need to or not. Just like using a medium format camera with a waist level finder or a view finder, the sensible thing to do is to use some kind of shade or hood to promote a better view of the viewfinder when in situations that require it. All this fuss over something that is just common sense... Shade the LCD with your hand if the sun is hitting it and you need it to see what you're doing, and don't have a proper shade. Sheesh. I'd rather have a decent sized LCD and carry a shade than look through the smarmy little warped, distorted, peephole sight that they call an optical finder on most of todays compact cameras. :-\ Those things are a complete waste of time ... not a one of them comes up the quality of even the simple viewfinder on my Rollei 35. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
On 8/22/07, Joseph Tainter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A lot of the new point 'n shoot digitals don't even have a viewfinder anymore. The only way you can compose the image is to look at the little TV screen on the back. Yes, they're just great with daylight coming from behind you, much the same reason the K10D screen based menu settings are less appealing in a country where sunlight is abundant and clouds are sparse. Rob Studdert - Much of photographic display technology in recent decades has left out those of us who live and shoot in sunny places. I find in-viewfinder displays useless for much of my daylight shooting. I'm sure it doesn't help that I wear glasses. Ditto re: viewfiner displays. And I don't wear glasses. Camera companies should send their display designers to live in the Sahara, or some such place, and make them wear glasses whether they need to or not. Yeah but Joe, everyone knows that you're only supposed to take photos during the golden hours. :-) Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
You excel at picking nits. It's unimportant, Cory. What's important is that the differential between shooting with the Live View enabled vs the optical finder alone is not that enormous. If the minutiae of the battery specification is that important to you, you could have looked it up easily: The Panasonic takes a CGR-S603A battery, 7.2V, rated 1500 mAh. For comparison sake, the Pentax K10D's supplied LI50 battery is 7.4V, rated 1700 mAh. My current records show that I get an average around 925 exposures per full charge with it. Godfrey Yes, I have a tendency to pick nits particularly on pet peeves. Battery misinformation is one such pet peeve. It was not a personal attack, simply pointing out that such a piece of information is useless for the point trying to be conveyed. I've never noticed significantly less life out of my -DS depending on how much I use the LCD. I personally don't see much value in live viewing on the screen, except in very rare circumstances like ground-level shooting. Without a pivotable screen though, even that is dubiously valuable. OTOH, it's basically a free addition since it doesn't require anything other than software, so I'm surprised it's taken this long to be included. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
I think that sensor (which has to support video mode) and the mirror problem (it's in the way) are the main culprits. OTOH, it's basically a free addition since it doesn't require anything other than software, so I'm surprised it's taken this long to be included. -Cory -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- K10D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
On Aug 22, 2007, at 10:41 AM, Cory Papenfuss wrote: Yes, I have a tendency to pick nits particularly on pet peeves. Battery misinformation is one such pet peeve. It was not a personal attack, simply pointing out that such a piece of information is useless for the point trying to be conveyed. You evidently have difficulty understanding the point I was trying to convey. As I said, What's important is that the differential between shooting with the Live View enabled vs the optical finder alone is not that enormous. My apologies if stating that the battery was rated for a capacity of 1500 mAh without specifying that it is also rated at 7.2V is some enormous breach of information disclosure ethics. OTOH, it's basically a free addition since it doesn't require anything other than software, so I'm surprised it's taken this long to be included. The implementation requires a live capture mode sensor chip, which until recently could not be supported in a large sensor without high power consumption and resultant overheating, destroying image quality and shortening the lifespan of the sensor to an unusable level. And then there is all the mechanical coordination required for a DSLR to manage the iris/mirror/shutter/exposure sequencing, on top of the programming of capture and rendering dynamics for that live view mode. Yea, a free addition ... Pointing out that doesn't require anything other than software is nonsensical isn't even a nit pick: it's just plain wrong. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
My apologies if stating that the battery was rated for a capacity of 1500 mAh without specifying that it is also rated at 7.2V is some enormous breach of information disclosure ethics. OTOH, it's basically a free addition since it doesn't require anything other than software, so I'm surprised it's taken this long to be included. The implementation requires a live capture mode sensor chip, which until recently could not be supported in a large sensor without high power consumption and resultant overheating, destroying image quality and shortening the lifespan of the sensor to an unusable level. And I'm ignorant of these issues. I'd imagine the CCD's are more difficult to read out this way than CMOS sensors. One doesn't need anywhere near full resolution to display on the LCD. then there is all the mechanical coordination required for a DSLR to manage the iris/mirror/shutter/exposure sequencing, It's the same mechanical coordination required for shooting normal shots. I dont' see why this is any more mechanically complicated than two shots in a row... the first one a few seconds and the second one normal. on top of the programming of capture and rendering dynamics for that live view mode. Yea, a free addition ... Again... the same thing done for the still image preview. Of course it has to be economized for video-mode, but in any event, that's software. Pointing out that doesn't require anything other than software is nonsensical isn't even a nit pick: it's just plain wrong. Godfrey Except for the live readout of the sensor I admitted I was ignorant about, the rest is either software/hardware routines already in place, or strictly software. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
On Aug 22, 2007, at 7:53 PM, Cory Papenfuss wrote: I'm ignorant of these issues. I'd imagine the CCD's are more difficult to read out this way than CMOS sensors. One doesn't need anywhere near full resolution to display on the LCD. I don't know what these distinctions would be in that regard ... I not an imaging sensor designer. I would not presume that you can run a partial capture or what the specifics of writing drivers for the sensor readout would be. But I know one thing from long experience with product development: whenever a software engineer waves their hands and says it's a simple problem, it will involve serious work by a team of engineers to fix the problems and make it work. then there is all the mechanical coordination required for a DSLR to manage the iris/mirror/shutter/exposure sequencing, It's the same mechanical coordination required for shooting normal shots. I dont' see why this is any more mechanically complicated than two shots in a row... the first one a few seconds and the second one normal. on top of the Not quite the same, Cory. For operation of the current DSLRs, the cycle of activity starts with the mirror down, sensor initialized and ready to go. For a Live View mode, the shutter has to be closed, the sensor reset to the capture mode, and then the exposure cycle started. If in continuous capture mode, the shutter is cycled as normal and then, at end, the sensor is reset to the real time capture mode, the shutter reopened, etc etc. There are also implications regards the focusing system and several other possible system interactions involved. There are both hardware electronics and mechanical implications to all of this. It's not ... just programming ... as you casually suggested. Nor is it free. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
I don't know if this is an improvement of dumbing down the interface. Dario Bonazza wrote: And the EOS 40D has been introduced, so that we can figure out the next trend: 3 LCD with Live View. Cheers, Dario - Original Message - From: Sylwester Pietrzyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony It seems that we already know what will Sony use in their upcoming mid-end Alpha which shoould appear at the begining of september. It incorporates some very interesting noise cancelling technologies. All is here: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200708/07-072E/index.html Will it find its use in future Pentax DSLRs??? Cheers, Sylwek -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
On 22/08/07, Steve Desjardins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I must be missing something. What is the point of Live View with a DSLR? It could be handy if it includes a histogram and responds to exposure controls. :-) -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://picasaweb.google.com/distudio/PESO http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
On Aug 21, 2007, at 7:01 AM, Steve Desjardins wrote: I must be missing something. What is the point of Live View with a DSLR? 1- Exact, precise 100% coverage framing 2- Live histogram display for dynamic exposure adjustment 3- Critical focusing aids if the camera implements image magnification in live view manual focus mode 4- A big, clear, bright viewfinder you can view with both eyes for compositional purposes, like a medium format camera with a waist level finder. 5- Dynamically configurable viewfinder ... rule of thirds reference lines, retical sight, fine grid overlays ... for framing aids. 6- Ability to frame for waist level or overhead shots easily and accurately My Panasonic L1 has Live View and all the above features. It is a fantastic aid in various kinds of work, kind of an ideal hybrid. Use the optical reflex viewfinder for what it's best at, use the LCD display for what it's best at, and gain a healthy set of capabilities along the way. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
I must be missing something. What is the point of Live View with a DSLR? P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8/21/2007 7:36 AM I don't know if this is an improvement of dumbing down the interface. Dario Bonazza wrote: And the EOS 40D has been introduced, so that we can figure out the next trend: 3 LCD with Live View. Cheers, Dario - Original Message - From: Sylwester Pietrzyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony It seems that we already know what will Sony use in their upcoming mid-end Alpha which shoould appear at the begining of september. It incorporates some very interesting noise cancelling technologies. All is here: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200708/07-072E/index.html Will it find its use in future Pentax DSLRs??? Cheers, Sylwek -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net !SIG:46cacf8d196709515195331! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
On Aug 21, 2007, at 9:18, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: My Panasonic L1 has Live View and all the above features. It is a fantastic aid in various kinds of work, kind of an ideal hybrid. Use the optical reflex viewfinder for what it's best at, use the LCD display for what it's best at, and gain a healthy set of capabilities along the way. There you go talking sense again -Charles -- Charles Robinson - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minneapolis, MN http://charles.robinsontwins.org -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
From: William Robb - Original Message - From: Dario Bonazza Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony And the EOS 40D has been introduced, so that we can figure out the next trend: 3 LCD with Live View. Excellent, it should filter down to us sometime around 2014. William Robb Seems like reason enough to hang around until then anyway. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
It's a feature. There's no point really... Wait a minute, have you looked down a Digital Rebel's viewfinder lately? Steve Desjardins wrote: I must be missing something. What is the point of Live View with a DSLR? P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8/21/2007 7:36 AM I don't know if this is an improvement of dumbing down the interface. Dario Bonazza wrote: And the EOS 40D has been introduced, so that we can figure out the next trend: 3 LCD with Live View. Cheers, Dario - Original Message - From: Sylwester Pietrzyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony It seems that we already know what will Sony use in their upcoming mid-end Alpha which shoould appear at the begining of september. It incorporates some very interesting noise cancelling technologies. All is here: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200708/07-072E/index.html Will it find its use in future Pentax DSLRs??? Cheers, Sylwek -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
It's funny that all the hundrdes of 1000's of Digital Rebel owners don't seem to be complaining. There must be something about the camera that makes up for it. Tom C. From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:39:10 -0400 It's a feature. There's no point really... Wait a minute, have you looked down a Digital Rebel's viewfinder lately? Steve Desjardins wrote: I must be missing something. What is the point of Live View with a DSLR? P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8/21/2007 7:36 AM I don't know if this is an improvement of dumbing down the interface. Dario Bonazza wrote: And the EOS 40D has been introduced, so that we can figure out the next trend: 3 LCD with Live View. Cheers, Dario - Original Message - From: Sylwester Pietrzyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony It seems that we already know what will Sony use in their upcoming mid-end Alpha which shoould appear at the begining of september. It incorporates some very interesting noise cancelling technologies. All is here: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200708/07-072E/index.html Will it find its use in future Pentax DSLRs??? Cheers, Sylwek -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Remember, itâs pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
Too late, the end of the world comes before that... http://www.greatdreams.com/end-world.htm John Sessoms wrote: From: William Robb - Original Message - From: Dario Bonazza Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony And the EOS 40D has been introduced, so that we can figure out the next trend: 3 LCD with Live View. Excellent, it should filter down to us sometime around 2014. William Robb Seems like reason enough to hang around until then anyway. -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
They've never seen a good viewfinder on a DSLR? (Customer in BigBox/Camera Store: Which camera should I buy? Salesdroid: Heres a Digital Rebel, it's made by Canon, they sell the most cameras therefor they're the best at everything. Customer: Duh, OK) New camera owner never takes the thing off automatic and uses the viewfinder to do nothing but aim. What's to complain about? Tom Cakalic wrote: It's funny that all the hundrdes of 1000's of Digital Rebel owners don't seem to be complaining. There must be something about the camera that makes up for it. Tom C. From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:39:10 -0400 It's a feature. There's no point really... Wait a minute, have you looked down a Digital Rebel's viewfinder lately? Steve Desjardins wrote: I must be missing something. What is the point of Live View with a DSLR? P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8/21/2007 7:36 AM I don't know if this is an improvement of dumbing down the interface. Dario Bonazza wrote: And the EOS 40D has been introduced, so that we can figure out the next trend: 3 LCD with Live View. Cheers, Dario - Original Message - From: Sylwester Pietrzyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony It seems that we already know what will Sony use in their upcoming mid-end Alpha which shoould appear at the begining of september. It incorporates some very interesting noise cancelling technologies. All is here: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200708/07-072E/index.html Will it find its use in future Pentax DSLRs??? Cheers, Sylwek -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:03:10 -0400, P. J. Alling wrote They've never seen a good viewfinder on a DSLR? (Customer in BigBox/Camera Store: Which camera should I buy? Salesdroid: Heres a Digital Rebel, it's made by Canon, they sell the most cameras therefor they're the best at everything. Customer: Duh, OK) New camera owner never takes the thing off automatic and uses the viewfinder to do nothing but aim. What's to complain about? Sounds like every photographic student we've had through the college for about 10+ years 8) and they all seem to come with the default Canon whatever that was recommended to them by the sales droid!!! John The information transmitted is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you have received an email in error please notify Carmel College on [EMAIL PROTECTED] then delete all copies of it from your systems. Although Carmel College scans incoming and outgoing emails and email attachments for viruses we cannot guarantee a communication to be free of all viruses nor accept any responsibility for viruses. Although Carmel College monitors incoming and outgoing emails for inappropriate content, the college cannot be held responsible for the views or expressions of the author. The views expressed may not necessarily be those of Carmel College and Carmel College cannot be held responsible for any loss or injury resulting from the contents of a message. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
I personally don't see a *HUGE* difference in viewfinders between the major brands of DSLR's. Not enough to clearly remember it from the time I put down camera A and pick up camera B. Certainly not enough to have it be a purchasing driver. There's actually nothing wrong with camera owners using their viewfinder as you describe. That covers probably 75% of users and the #1 reason to look through the viewfinder is to aim the camera at the subject. Tom C. From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:03:10 -0400 They've never seen a good viewfinder on a DSLR? (Customer in BigBox/Camera Store: Which camera should I buy? Salesdroid: Heres a Digital Rebel, it's made by Canon, they sell the most cameras therefor they're the best at everything. Customer: Duh, OK) New camera owner never takes the thing off automatic and uses the viewfinder to do nothing but aim. What's to complain about? Tom Cakalic wrote: It's funny that all the hundrdes of 1000's of Digital Rebel owners don't seem to be complaining. There must be something about the camera that makes up for it. Tom C. From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:39:10 -0400 It's a feature. There's no point really... Wait a minute, have you looked down a Digital Rebel's viewfinder lately? Steve Desjardins wrote: I must be missing something. What is the point of Live View with a DSLR? P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8/21/2007 7:36 AM I don't know if this is an improvement of dumbing down the interface. Dario Bonazza wrote: And the EOS 40D has been introduced, so that we can figure out the next trend: 3 LCD with Live View. Cheers, Dario - Original Message - From: Sylwester Pietrzyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony It seems that we already know what will Sony use in their upcoming mid-end Alpha which shoould appear at the begining of september. It incorporates some very interesting noise cancelling technologies. All is here: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200708/07-072E/index.html Will it find its use in future Pentax DSLRs??? Cheers, Sylwek -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Remember, itâs pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Remember, its pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
IMO, not having 100% coverage in a viewfinder is a far more serious issue than it being a little dim for one's tastes. Of course we've all gotten used to it, but I fail to see why, all things considered, that viewfinders don't approach a view that is within 1% of what is imaged on the recording medium. Tom C. From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 07:18:45 -0700 On Aug 21, 2007, at 7:01 AM, Steve Desjardins wrote: I must be missing something. What is the point of Live View with a DSLR? 1- Exact, precise 100% coverage framing 2- Live histogram display for dynamic exposure adjustment 3- Critical focusing aids if the camera implements image magnification in live view manual focus mode 4- A big, clear, bright viewfinder you can view with both eyes for compositional purposes, like a medium format camera with a waist level finder. 5- Dynamically configurable viewfinder ... rule of thirds reference lines, retical sight, fine grid overlays ... for framing aids. 6- Ability to frame for waist level or overhead shots easily and accurately My Panasonic L1 has Live View and all the above features. It is a fantastic aid in various kinds of work, kind of an ideal hybrid. Use the optical reflex viewfinder for what it's best at, use the LCD display for what it's best at, and gain a healthy set of capabilities along the way. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
As you say, there's nothing wrong with using you camera like that. You must live a happy life, I'm nothing but annoyed when someone hands me a Rebel XT and asks me to take a picture. It's narrow and dim, I'm even more annoyed when one of my friends hands me his OM1, I have to go and fondle my MX for a couple of hours to get over it. I really should load some film into an LX or MX and relive what real viewfinders were all about. Tom C wrote: I personally don't see a *HUGE* difference in viewfinders between the major brands of DSLR's. Not enough to clearly remember it from the time I put down camera A and pick up camera B. Certainly not enough to have it be a purchasing driver. There's actually nothing wrong with camera owners using their viewfinder as you describe. That covers probably 75% of users and the #1 reason to look through the viewfinder is to aim the camera at the subject. Tom C. From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:03:10 -0400 They've never seen a good viewfinder on a DSLR? (Customer in BigBox/Camera Store: Which camera should I buy? Salesdroid: Heres a Digital Rebel, it's made by Canon, they sell the most cameras therefor they're the best at everything. Customer: Duh, OK) New camera owner never takes the thing off automatic and uses the viewfinder to do nothing but aim. What's to complain about? Tom Cakalic wrote: It's funny that all the hundrdes of 1000's of Digital Rebel owners don't seem to be complaining. There must be something about the camera that makes up for it. Tom C. From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:39:10 -0400 It's a feature. There's no point really... Wait a minute, have you looked down a Digital Rebel's viewfinder lately? Steve Desjardins wrote: I must be missing something. What is the point of Live View with a DSLR? P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8/21/2007 7:36 AM I don't know if this is an improvement of dumbing down the interface. Dario Bonazza wrote: And the EOS 40D has been introduced, so that we can figure out the next trend: 3 LCD with Live View. Cheers, Dario - Original Message - From: Sylwester Pietrzyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony It seems that we already know what will Sony use in their upcoming mid-end Alpha which shoould appear at the begining of september. It incorporates some very interesting noise cancelling technologies. All is here: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200708/07-072E/index.html Will it find its use in future Pentax DSLRs??? Cheers, Sylwek -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
The primary reason for less than 100% viewfinder coverage with SLR reflex optical systems is cost of manufacture and the resulting price to the users. Optical systems built to this standard require larger, heavier components with more rejects and more accuracy in assembly by a multiplicative factor to ensure accurate registration, high quality viewing, etc. Quality control alone is probably twice as expensive. Top of the line, pro SLRs have often had 100% viewfinder coverage (Nikon F series, Canon EOS 1 and F1 series, Contax RTS series, etc) but at a hefty premium price that the vast majority of users would not accept. I see from Boz' site that the Pentax LX had ~98% coverage. It's very easy and inexpensive to produce a 100% viewfinder coverage with a digital sensor and an LCD screen, presuming that the digital sensor is capable of real time capture. It doesn't cost any more than producing a viewfinder with less framing coverage. G On Aug 21, 2007, at 9:59 AM, Tom C wrote: IMO, not having 100% coverage in a viewfinder is a far more serious issue than it being a little dim for one's tastes. Of course we've all gotten used to it, but I fail to see why, all things considered, that viewfinders don't approach a view that is within 1% of what is imaged on the recording medium. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
I've heard that said before, but what kind of tolerances are we talking about? I would think that's it's not as expensive as it may seem, but is used as a value-added feature to raise the price on the high-end bodies. Not arguing with you, but it just seems to me that everthing has to be manufactured to pretty close tolerances already. A slop of 1 - 5% in other body parts would mean the thing wouldn't fit together. It just seems counter-intuitive to me. The reaosn for looking throught the viewfinder is to see the scene one will capture. In a perfect world it would be nothing more/nothing less. Tom C. From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 10:42:56 -0700 The primary reason for less than 100% viewfinder coverage with SLR reflex optical systems is cost of manufacture and the resulting price to the users. Optical systems built to this standard require larger, heavier components with more rejects and more accuracy in assembly by a multiplicative factor to ensure accurate registration, high quality viewing, etc. Quality control alone is probably twice as expensive. Top of the line, pro SLRs have often had 100% viewfinder coverage (Nikon F series, Canon EOS 1 and F1 series, Contax RTS series, etc) but at a hefty premium price that the vast majority of users would not accept. I see from Boz' site that the Pentax LX had ~98% coverage. It's very easy and inexpensive to produce a 100% viewfinder coverage with a digital sensor and an LCD screen, presuming that the digital sensor is capable of real time capture. It doesn't cost any more than producing a viewfinder with less framing coverage. G On Aug 21, 2007, at 9:59 AM, Tom C wrote: IMO, not having 100% coverage in a viewfinder is a far more serious issue than it being a little dim for one's tastes. Of course we've all gotten used to it, but I fail to see why, all things considered, that viewfinders don't approach a view that is within 1% of what is imaged on the recording medium. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
Many tolerances in the body and shutter are quite small, but tolerances in the viewfinder system to achieve accurate framing at 100% viewfinder coverage are very very tight. With a 92-96% framing coverage, you can have the focusing screen and image center off by a substantial amount, relatively speaking (up to around 1.5mm off center axis to first order approximation), and still not lose anything the user framed in the viewfinder. With a 100% coverage viewfinder, a tenth of a mm off and the framing is imperfect, with some loss and some unwanted area. That would be unacceptable. And the prism/mirror/focusing screen components are relatively large pieces that must be assembled together for this kind of precision. If you ever used a Nikon F with a 4x Magnifying finder and reticle grid focusing screen for scientific data collection, you would know just how annoying having the framing off a by a millimeter might be. I found I was sensitive to framing errors in the range of about .25 mm... about six times the accuracy required for a 97% viewfinder coverage finder. That's a big step in manufacturing assembly processes and quality inspection: it costs a bundle. Every penny counts when you're making a few ten thousands of a product... Since the people who need such framing coverage are generally the same ones who demand reliable framing accuracy, the market is sensitive and the price goes up to ensure that the product delivered meets the needs of those buyers. Godfrey On Aug 21, 2007, at 10:57 AM, Tom C wrote: I've heard that said before, but what kind of tolerances are we talking about? I would think that's it's not as expensive as it may seem, but is used as a value-added feature to raise the price on the high-end bodies. Not arguing with you, but it just seems to me that everthing has to be manufactured to pretty close tolerances already. A slop of 1 - 5% in other body parts would mean the thing wouldn't fit together. It just seems counter-intuitive to me. The reaosn for looking throught the viewfinder is to see the scene one will capture. In a perfect world it would be nothing more/nothing less. Tom C. From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 10:42:56 -0700 The primary reason for less than 100% viewfinder coverage with SLR reflex optical systems is cost of manufacture and the resulting price to the users. Optical systems built to this standard require larger, heavier components with more rejects and more accuracy in assembly by a multiplicative factor to ensure accurate registration, high quality viewing, etc. Quality control alone is probably twice as expensive. Top of the line, pro SLRs have often had 100% viewfinder coverage (Nikon F series, Canon EOS 1 and F1 series, Contax RTS series, etc) but at a hefty premium price that the vast majority of users would not accept. I see from Boz' site that the Pentax LX had ~98% coverage. It's very easy and inexpensive to produce a 100% viewfinder coverage with a digital sensor and an LCD screen, presuming that the digital sensor is capable of real time capture. It doesn't cost any more than producing a viewfinder with less framing coverage. G On Aug 21, 2007, at 9:59 AM, Tom C wrote: IMO, not having 100% coverage in a viewfinder is a far more serious issue than it being a little dim for one's tastes. Of course we've all gotten used to it, but I fail to see why, all things considered, that viewfinders don't approach a view that is within 1% of what is imaged on the recording medium. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
I believe most of those who would complain would not have bought it - or would have later moved up the line. Nikon's bottom end cameras have very poor viewfinders as well. Move up the line a bit and the viewfinder improves quite a bit. -- Bruce Tuesday, August 21, 2007, 8:48:01 AM, you wrote: TC It's funny that all the hundrdes of 1000's of Digital Rebel owners don't TC seem to be complaining. There must be something about the camera that makes TC up for it. TC Tom C. From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:39:10 -0400 It's a feature. There's no point really... Wait a minute, have you looked down a Digital Rebel's viewfinder lately? Steve Desjardins wrote: I must be missing something. What is the point of Live View with a DSLR? P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8/21/2007 7:36 AM I don't know if this is an improvement of dumbing down the interface. Dario Bonazza wrote: And the EOS 40D has been introduced, so that we can figure out the next trend: 3 LCD with Live View. Cheers, Dario - Original Message - From: Sylwester Pietrzyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony It seems that we already know what will Sony use in their upcoming mid-end Alpha which shoould appear at the begining of september. It incorporates some very interesting noise cancelling technologies. All is here: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200708/07-072E/index.html Will it find its use in future Pentax DSLRs??? Cheers, Sylwek -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Remember, itâ€s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
- Original Message - From: Tom C Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony IMO, not having 100% coverage in a viewfinder is a far more serious issue than it being a little dim for one's tastes. Of course we've all gotten used to it, but I fail to see why, all things considered, that viewfinders don't approach a view that is within 1% of what is imaged on the recording medium. I sent this to the list Sept 02, 2004. I guess it bears repeating. I spell checked it this time It's not just positioning of the screen that's important. The lens mount also has to be in perfect registration, and the camera has to be solidly enough built to keep it that way. The mirror alignment is critical, and cannot shift it's rest position at all over some tens of thousand of exposures. The prism must be precisely aligned as well as the viewfinder elements. In order to build a camera with a 100% accurate viewfinder, you cannot use modern assembly line techniques. You are back to the old school of bench building each camera individually past a certain point. 100% accurate means just that. There is no allowable slop in the build. That means shimming each component of the viewing system in piece by piece and ensuring that perfect alignment is maintained. This may not be an especially difficult task, but it is a time consuming one, and ensures that the camera in question will not be a mass produced item. It also ensures that the product will be substantially more expensive than the same camera without the 100% viewfinder. and, from Aug 31, 2004, same thread... When I bought my Nikon F2s, I was told by the rep that a significant portion of the cost of the camera went into ensuring the 100% viewfinder was 100% accurate. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: 21 August 2007 16:47 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony Too late, the end of the world comes before that... http://www.greatdreams.com/end-world.htm Excellent! I won't have to buy an Christmas presents. -- Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
Yes, nice... ...or for shooting from odd positions, where you cannot put your eye behind the viewfinder (e.g. above heads in the crowd). Dario - Original Message - From: Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:07 PM Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony On 22/08/07, Steve Desjardins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I must be missing something. What is the point of Live View with a DSLR? It could be handy if it includes a histogram and responds to exposure controls. :-) -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://picasaweb.google.com/distudio/PESO http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
Sylwester Pietrzyk wrote: It seems that we already know what will Sony use in their upcoming mid-end Alpha which shoould appear at the begining of september. It incorporates some very interesting noise cancelling technologies. All is here: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200708/07-072E/index.html Heh. I won't believe it until Roman posts the news in two months... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
On 22/08/07, Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've heard that said before, but what kind of tolerances are we talking about? I would think that's it's not as expensive as it may seem, but is used as a value-added feature to raise the price on the high-end bodies. Not arguing with you, but it just seems to me that everthing has to be manufactured to pretty close tolerances already. A slop of 1 - 5% in other body parts would mean the thing wouldn't fit together. It sounds like a well worn argument to me too these days, it may have been entirely true in the days of the Nikon F. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://picasaweb.google.com/distudio/PESO http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
Har! Mark Roberts wrote: Sylwester Pietrzyk wrote: It seems that we already know what will Sony use in their upcoming mid-end Alpha which shoould appear at the begining of september. It incorporates some very interesting noise cancelling technologies. All is here: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200708/07-072E/index.html Heh. I won't believe it until Roman posts the news in two months... -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
- Original Message - From: Tom Cakalic Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony It's funny that all the hundrdes of 1000's of Digital Rebel owners don't seem to be complaining. There must be something about the camera that makes up for it. You must not hang out on any of the Canon forums. Digital Rebel owners are just about the whiniest bunch of snivelers to be found. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
Their just the one's that like to whine. The rest are out taking pretty pictures. Just think of how many products you own and how many forums you are NOT on. Tom C. From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:25:00 -0600 - Original Message - From: Tom Cakalic Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony It's funny that all the hundrdes of 1000's of Digital Rebel owners don't seem to be complaining. There must be something about the camera that makes up for it. You must not hang out on any of the Canon forums. Digital Rebel owners are just about the whiniest bunch of snivelers to be found. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
From: P. J. Alling They've never seen a good viewfinder on a DSLR? (Customer in BigBox/Camera Store: Which camera should I buy? Salesdroid: Heres a Digital Rebel, it's made by Canon, they sell the most cameras therefor they're the best at everything. Customer: Duh, OK) New camera owner never takes the thing off automatic and uses the viewfinder to do nothing but aim. What's to complain about? Tom Cakalic wrote: It's funny that all the hundrdes of 1000's of Digital Rebel owners don't seem to be complaining. There must be something about the camera that makes up for it. A lot of the new point 'n shoot digitals don't even have a viewfinder anymore. The only way you can compose the image is to look at the little TV screen on the back. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
On 22/08/07, John Sessoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A lot of the new point 'n shoot digitals don't even have a viewfinder anymore. The only way you can compose the image is to look at the little TV screen on the back. Yes, they're just great with daylight coming from behind you, much the same reason the K10D screen based menu settings are less appealing in a country where sunlight is abundant and clouds are sparse. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://picasaweb.google.com/distudio/PESO http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
You've got to get an after market screen shade. Of course they don't seem to exist for the K10d yet... http://www.internationalsupplies.com/delkin/popup.htm Digital Image Studio wrote: On 22/08/07, John Sessoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A lot of the new point 'n shoot digitals don't even have a viewfinder anymore. The only way you can compose the image is to look at the little TV screen on the back. Yes, they're just great with daylight coming from behind you, much the same reason the K10D screen based menu settings are less appealing in a country where sunlight is abundant and clouds are sparse. -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
On 22/08/07, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You've got to get an after market screen shade. Of course they don't seem to exist for the K10d yet... Yes, but I didn't seem to need one to set the drive mode or bracketing options on my *ist D. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://picasaweb.google.com/distudio/PESO http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
Times change... Digital Image Studio wrote: On 22/08/07, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You've got to get an after market screen shade. Of course they don't seem to exist for the K10d yet... Yes, but I didn't seem to need one to set the drive mode or bracketing options on my *ist D. -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
On 20/08/07, Sylwester Pietrzyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems that we already know what will Sony use in their upcoming mid-end Alpha which shoould appear at the begining of september. It incorporates some very interesting noise cancelling technologies. All is here: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200708/07-072E/index.html Will it find its use in future Pentax DSLRs??? The release is a bit misleading really, they appear to have capitalized on the publics limited understanding of noise sources and made the readout noise management appear to read like it's image noise reduction. Unfortunately readout noise isn't our biggest enemy, the sensor area is and since that's now reduced readout noise will become more of an issue but I'll bet even with the new readout noise management technology usable latitude will be either similar or most likely reduced.. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://picasaweb.google.com/distudio/PESO http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
Interesting to me is the fact that it is a CMOS and not a CCD anymore. Seems everybody shitfs (or tries to) to CMOS. -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- K10D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
On 20/08/07, Thibouille [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting to me is the fact that it is a CMOS and not a CCD anymore. Seems everybody shitfs (or tries to) to CMOS. It's a lot more flexible in implementation, on chip NR, pixel binning, on chip logic and ADC and it's much easier to produce using less specialized processes so cheaper in production. I still think that a good CCD will out-perform a teched up CMOS sensor though. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://picasaweb.google.com/distudio/PESO http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
Digital Image Studio wrote: On 20/08/07, Sylwester Pietrzyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems that we already know what will Sony use in their upcoming mid-end Alpha which shoould appear at the begining of september. It incorporates some very interesting noise cancelling technologies. All is here: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200708/07-072E/index.html Will it find its use in future Pentax DSLRs??? The release is a bit misleading really, they appear to have capitalized on the publics limited understanding of noise sources and made the readout noise management appear to read like it's image noise reduction. I also always imagined that most of the readout noise appeared during the actual discharge of the sensor area, which is not what they seem to address (unsurprisingly enough.) I could be wrong, though... - T -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
And the EOS 40D has been introduced, so that we can figure out the next trend: 3 LCD with Live View. Cheers, Dario - Original Message - From: Sylwester Pietrzyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony It seems that we already know what will Sony use in their upcoming mid-end Alpha which shoould appear at the begining of september. It incorporates some very interesting noise cancelling technologies. All is here: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200708/07-072E/index.html Will it find its use in future Pentax DSLRs??? Cheers, Sylwek -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony
- Original Message - From: Dario Bonazza Subject: Re: New 12MP APS-C CMOS sensor from Sony And the EOS 40D has been introduced, so that we can figure out the next trend: 3 LCD with Live View. Excellent, it should filter down to us sometime around 2014. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
