Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[P. J. Alling]

Yes, but the there were a few manufactures who produced keyboards, that 
were not quite as nice as the old IBM's that still had a pretty good 
tactile response, yet had the "new" Windows key.  I have use two of them 
that I use personally that have that old IBM feel.  One is built that 
way, the other is newer construction that still manages to be pretty 
good.  The new stuff is just cheap.




On 2/25/2010 7:45 PM, Graydon wrote:

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:54:03AM -0500, P. J. Alling scripsit:
   

Won't do any good, can't find a decent Keyboard for love nor money any
more.  (I keep searching for and recycling oldies with decent tactile
feel).
 

These are oldies, but they seem to have a warehouse of them somewhere:


These are brand new:


You're going to pay, but hey, it is the most used part of the computer.

-- Graydon

   



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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[P. J. Alling]

On 2/25/2010 7:05 PM, Bob W wrote:

Piss off little roo eater.<;-)
   

Hehehe...

Haven't had roo in a few months.
 

I tried a recipe with it a few weeks ago. Shredded it, mixed it up
with some egg whites and sugar, made a roo meringue. Won't
   

do it again
 

though - it kept coming back on me.
   

Nice try but, that's a boomerang joke.

 

See - it's come back on me again. I knew I'd rue it.
   


You were wrong, it's worse than a Boomerang joke.



   



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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[eckinator]

2010/2/26 Graydon :
>
> Had (well, I still have it, but it's dead) Unicomp Endurapro; it might
> have recovered from the water but not from me trying to get it apart to
> dry it.

hmm sounds like they put it together for a reason ;)

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Graydon]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 11:55:49AM +1100, Rob Studdert scripsit:
> On 26/02/2010, Graydon  wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:54:03AM -0500, P. J. Alling scripsit:
> > > Won't do any good, can't find a decent Keyboard for love nor money any
> > > more.  (I keep searching for and recycling oldies with decent tactile
> > > feel).
> >
> > These are oldies, but they seem to have a warehouse of them somewhere:
> > 
> 
> I run the IBM model M13 black (Trackpoint II) on my main machine the
> only problem is the silk screening on the keys, I now have no A or S
> key labels. I have a whole lot of earlier ones too, they are damned
> hard to get apart though. So when I last spilt a full glass of red
> wine in one I hung it over the clothes line, gave it a good hose and
> let it dry for a few days, it's been perfect since. They are very
> robust (but noisy)

I have a milspec M13 (Trackpoint II); it's beige. (The reason it's
milspec?  1/8" steel back plate.  Less noisy.  Haven't tried to test the
"can be used to drive tent pegs" assertion.)

Had (well, I still have it, but it's dead) Unicomp Endurapro; it might
have recovered from the water but not from me trying to get it apart to
dry it.

-- Graydon

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[John Sessoms]

From: Graydon

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:54:03AM -0500, P. J. Alling scripsit:
> Won't do any good, can't find a decent Keyboard for love nor money any  
> more.  (I keep searching for and recycling oldies with decent tactile 
> feel).


These are oldies, but they seem to have a warehouse of them somewhere:


These are brand new:


You're going to pay, but hey, it is the most used part of the computer.


You have *GOT* to be kidding me. $95 for an IBM M keyboard?

I think I've still got a half dozen or so around here somewhere. Stocked 
up when they were going for $2 new in box.


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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[eckinator]

cherry support once told me off record that when they get them back
for cleaning they just put them in the dishwasher - they do have a
special detergent with less acids but he said any mild soap for doing
dishes by hand would do the trick just fine - did it and it work.
caveat, that was early 90s, no idea how it would work nowadays
cheers
ecke

2010/2/26 Rob Studdert :
> On 26/02/2010, Graydon  wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:54:03AM -0500, P. J. Alling scripsit:
>> > Won't do any good, can't find a decent Keyboard for love nor money any
>> > more.  (I keep searching for and recycling oldies with decent tactile
>> > feel).
>>
>> These are oldies, but they seem to have a warehouse of them somewhere:
>> 
>
> I run the IBM model M13 black (Trackpoint II) on my main machine the
> only problem is the silk screening on the keys, I now have no A or S
> key labels. I have a whole lot of earlier ones too, they are damned
> hard to get apart though. So when I last spilt a full glass of red
> wine in one I hung it over the clothes line, gave it a good hose and
> let it dry for a few days, it's been perfect since. They are very
> robust (but noisy)
>
> --
> Rob Studdert (Digital  Image Studio)
> Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours
> Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio
>
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Rob Studdert]

On 26/02/2010, Graydon  wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:54:03AM -0500, P. J. Alling scripsit:
> > Won't do any good, can't find a decent Keyboard for love nor money any
> > more.  (I keep searching for and recycling oldies with decent tactile
> > feel).
>
> These are oldies, but they seem to have a warehouse of them somewhere:
> 

I run the IBM model M13 black (Trackpoint II) on my main machine the
only problem is the silk screening on the keys, I now have no A or S
key labels. I have a whole lot of earlier ones too, they are damned
hard to get apart though. So when I last spilt a full glass of red
wine in one I hung it over the clothes line, gave it a good hose and
let it dry for a few days, it's been perfect since. They are very
robust (but noisy)

-- 
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Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours
Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Christine Aguila]

- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Roberts" 

To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: On FF and other "must have" features



Bob W wrote:


>> > Piss off little roo eater. <;-)
>>
>> Hehehe...
>>
>> Haven't had roo in a few months.
>
> I tried a recipe with it a few weeks ago. Shredded it, mixed it up
> with some egg whites and sugar, made a roo meringue. Won't
do it again
> though - it kept coming back on me.

Nice try but, that's a boomerang joke.


See - it's come back on me again. I knew I'd rue it.


You should have made one of those for Christine today, since it's her
50th birthday. Many happy returns and all that...



lol--too bad 50 ain't a boomerang number--one hits 50 then boomerangs back 
to 30!  Cheers, Christine 




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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Graydon]

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:54:03AM -0500, P. J. Alling scripsit:
> Won't do any good, can't find a decent Keyboard for love nor money any  
> more.  (I keep searching for and recycling oldies with decent tactile 
> feel).

These are oldies, but they seem to have a warehouse of them somewhere:


These are brand new:


You're going to pay, but hey, it is the most used part of the computer.

-- Graydon

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Mark Roberts]

Bob W wrote:

>> >> > Piss off little roo eater. <;-)
>> >>
>> >> Hehehe...
>> >>
>> >> Haven't had roo in a few months.
>> >
>> > I tried a recipe with it a few weeks ago. Shredded it, mixed it up 
>> > with some egg whites and sugar, made a roo meringue. Won't 
>> do it again 
>> > though - it kept coming back on me.
>> 
>> Nice try but, that's a boomerang joke.
>
>See - it's come back on me again. I knew I'd rue it.

You should have made one of those for Christine today, since it's her
50th birthday. Many happy returns and all that...



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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Graydon]

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 08:00:06AM -0600, William Robb scripsit:
> I find these dismissive comments to be a little less than smart as well.
> I've been very good to Pentax over the years regarding supporting their 
> lens manufacture, being told to go away and stop bitching because I would 
> like a camera that is as good as what the competition had on the market 5 
> years ago is unreasonable.

You've got quantified testing to back that up?

I'd be quite surprised at 14 MP APS-C in 2005.  (There might have been;
I wasn't much paying attention.)  (And yeah, autofocus; Pentax doesn't
believe in the utility of autofocus.  Much more a cultural problem than
a technical one, I think.  So the current cultural change might have
interesting results.)

Being frustrated, well; Pentax don't have the tech base to be a good
consumer electronics manufacturer.  Recent public comments (for "in the
last 12 months or so" values of recent) could be taken as acknowledging
that.  It then comes down to how they partner, and with who; pretty much
everybody who really knows how to do this stuff is either competition,
second tier (however hard they're working on climbing), or mostly doing
black project work for the USG.

Though I'd be deeply amused at autofocus technology from Questar's high
altitude observation division showing up in Pentax cameras.

-- Graydon

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Ken Waller]

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob W" 

Subject: RE: On FF and other "must have" features



>>
>
> Piss off little roo eater. <;-)

Hehehe...

Haven't had roo in a few months.


I tried a recipe with it a few weeks ago. Shredded it, mixed it up with 
some

egg whites and sugar, made a roo meringue. Won't do it again though - it
kept coming back on me.


So you did get a kick out of it.



Bob



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RE: On FF and other "must have" features

[Bob W]

> >> > Piss off little roo eater. <;-)
> >>
> >> Hehehe...
> >>
> >> Haven't had roo in a few months.
> >
> > I tried a recipe with it a few weeks ago. Shredded it, mixed it up 
> > with some egg whites and sugar, made a roo meringue. Won't 
> do it again 
> > though - it kept coming back on me.
> 
> Nice try but, that's a boomerang joke.
> 

See - it's come back on me again. I knew I'd rue it.



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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[David Savage]

On 26 February 2010 08:01, Bob W  wrote:
>> >>
>> >
>> > Piss off little roo eater. <;-)
>>
>> Hehehe...
>>
>> Haven't had roo in a few months.
>
> I tried a recipe with it a few weeks ago. Shredded it, mixed it up with some
> egg whites and sugar, made a roo meringue. Won't do it again though - it
> kept coming back on me.

Nice try but, that's a boomerang joke.

DS

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RE: On FF and other "must have" features

[Bob W]

> >>
> >
> > Piss off little roo eater. <;-)
> 
> Hehehe...
> 
> Haven't had roo in a few months.

I tried a recipe with it a few weeks ago. Shredded it, mixed it up with some
egg whites and sugar, made a roo meringue. Won't do it again though - it
kept coming back on me.

Bob


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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[David Savage]

On 25 February 2010 23:30, William Robb  wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "David Savage" Subject: Re: On FF and
> other "must have" features
>
>
>
>>> Find another camera maker, then.
>>
>> I did.
>>
>> And guess what? The grass IS greener.
>>
>
> Piss off little roo eater. <;-)

Hehehe...

Haven't had roo in a few months.

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[David Savage]

On 26 February 2010 05:17, eckinator  wrote:
> 2010/2/25 Tom C :
>> Words typically reveal the person. How would you suggest that I
>> separate YOU from what you SAY?
>>
>> And how is you're referring to legitimate opinions and complaints as
>> bitching and suggesting that list members that post such just go away,
>> "find another camera maker", any less person-focused than my remark?
>
> I can't see "go away" anywhere. I can only see "find..." We have other
> canikony shooters here. on that note, Dave, Cotty, Mark and whoever
> you are: GO AWAY!

Ummm...let me think about that.

No.

Cheers,

Skippy

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Paul Ewins]

Try turning down the default saturation.

On 26/02/2010, at 2:11 AM, David Savage wrote:
>> 
>> Find another camera maker, then.
> 
> I did.
> 
> And guess what? The grass IS greener.
> 
> DS


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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[P. J. Alling]

Unclean abomination of miscegenation!

On 2/25/2010 4:12 PM, Cotty wrote:

On 25/2/10, David Savage, discombobulated, unleashed:

   

And guess what? The grass IS greener.
 

BOBW, and I don't mean Bob W !!!



*sigh*

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[P. J. Alling]

On 2/25/2010 12:39 PM, William Robb wrote:


- Original Message - From: 

Subject: Re: On FF and other "must have" features




I'm not that familiar with the Canon line-up so this may not be a
valid comparison, but a couple of weeks ago I tried out one of my
students' Canon Rebel T1i (EOS 500D) and the low-light AF wasn't as
good as my K20D. (I'm not sure how old the Canon is or how much
cheaper than the K20D it may be.)


The Rebel is the bottom feeder in Canon's line. It would be most 
embarassing for Pentax if the Rebel outperformed what was, up until 
not long ago, the Pentax flagship camera.


William Robb


Pentax aims it's Flagship at a being a solid middle of the roader, it's 
not a 7D or a 1Dx or even a 5D but then Pentax top of the line doesn't 
cost what a top level Canon or Nikon does either.  I know that arguement 
has already been dismissed, but it;s still relaxant.  If you can't live 
with that then you probably should invest in some other brand.  Most 
pro's don't need better than what Pentax offers, hell most Pro's don't 
need more than a Digi Rebel, but I'd hate to have to use one.


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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Cotty]

On 25/2/10, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed:

>The code name for the mac when they were developing it for intel was BOBW.

Never knew that. You have a lot to answer for!!!

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RE: On FF and other "must have" features

[Bob W]

> 
> >And guess what? The grass IS greener.
> 
> BOBW, and I don't mean Bob W !!!
> 
> 
> 
> *sigh*
> 

The code name for the mac when they were developing it for intel was BOBW.

Bob W


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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Cotty]

On 25/2/10, eckinator, discombobulated, unleashed:

>We have other
>canikony shooters here. on that note, Dave, Cotty, Mark and whoever
>you are: GO AWAY!

I cannot tell a lie - it is not me!

I have no more Canon gear - sold it all a year ago.

I'm not in the market for a still camera (we have the house-bike: an
*ist Ds that gets used for anything that requires better resolution than
an iPhone) but if I were, it wouldn't be  K-7 sadly.

Actually I'd consider another Epson R-D1 - truly the best fun with a
digital camera I've ever had.

A 36X24 sensor LX-D would tempt me, as long as it offered at least what
the competition does - would pay more than the competition as well.

I'll go away now anyway ;)

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[eckinator]

2010/2/25 Tom C :
> Words typically reveal the person. How would you suggest that I
> separate YOU from what you SAY?
>
> And how is you're referring to legitimate opinions and complaints as
> bitching and suggesting that list members that post such just go away,
> "find another camera maker", any less person-focused than my remark?

I can't see "go away" anywhere. I can only see "find..." We have other
canikony shooters here. on that note, Dave, Cotty, Mark and whoever
you are: GO AWAY!

cheers
ecke

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Cotty]

On 25/2/10, David Savage, discombobulated, unleashed:

>And guess what? The grass IS greener.

BOBW, and I don't mean Bob W !!!



*sigh*

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: 


Subject: Re: On FF and other "must have" features




I'm not that familiar with the Canon line-up so this may not be a
valid comparison, but a couple of weeks ago I tried out one of my
students' Canon Rebel T1i (EOS 500D) and the low-light AF wasn't as
good as my K20D. (I'm not sure how old the Canon is or how much
cheaper than the K20D it may be.)


The Rebel is the bottom feeder in Canon's line. It would be most embarassing 
for Pentax if the Rebel outperformed what was, up until not long ago, the 
Pentax flagship camera.


William Robb


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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Tom C]

I find your attitude refreshing. :-)

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:12 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "John Sessoms"
> Subject: Re: On FF and other "must have" features
>
>
>
>>
>> 2. Since I'd like to have it, I'm sure there are all kinds of
>> technological reasons it can't be done, but I'd like to see a Pentax DSLR
>> with interchangeable viewfinders like the LX. I really liked the Action
>> Eyepiece.
>
> Get rid of the pop up flash and there isn't much to say about differences
> between the LX finder and the K7 finder other than size.
> It would have to either have the meter cell in the body or else the finder
> would have to contain a meter cell also.
> Canon was doing it with the F1n back in the 80s. Pentax could probably
> figure out how to do it if they set their minds to it, though they might
> have to find an old Canon to show them the way.
>
> William Robb
>
> I'm being bitter today, aren't I?
>
>
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "John Sessoms"

Subject: Re: On FF and other "must have" features





2. Since I'd like to have it, I'm sure there are all kinds of 
technological reasons it can't be done, but I'd like to see a Pentax DSLR 
with interchangeable viewfinders like the LX. I really liked the Action 
Eyepiece.


Get rid of the pop up flash and there isn't much to say about differences 
between the LX finder and the K7 finder other than size.
It would have to either have the meter cell in the body or else the finder 
would have to contain a meter cell also.
Canon was doing it with the F1n back in the 80s. Pentax could probably 
figure out how to do it if they set their minds to it, though they might 
have to find an old Canon to show them the way.


William Robb

I'm being bitter today, aren't I?


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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 


Subject: Re: On FF and other "must have" features






Piss off little roo eater. <;-)


Mmmm, Skippy ;-P...


Kangaroo and peanut butter - two great tastes that go great together.


Yup, a roo&poo sandwich. 
Beats Vegemite any day.


William Robb

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "AlunFoto"

Subject: Re: On FF and other "must have" features





Rob has a very salient point, though. To him the fence is a defence of
his investment in glass. That's valid for more people than him!


Well yes, this is my point as well. Do I want to sell the 4 dozen high 
quality lenses that I've carefully chosen to best suit my needs?

No, I don't.
But, when the camera body lets those lenses down more often than not, the 
maker of that camera needs to address the weakneses of what they are making.
Pentax is, at the moment, hobbling along on an AF system that is at least 7 
years old, and which was originally seen in their low end film camera. All 
the tweaks in the world can't get past the fact that everyone else has moved 
3 or 4 generations beyond what they were doing in 2003, and Pentax is still 
using essentially the same AF system.
It may have been good enough for a plastic toy film camera, but it isn't 
good enough for a DSLR, and it certainly isn't good enough for a prosumer 
SLR like the K7, and God help them if they try to foist off a 135 format 
DSLR with SAFOX VIII, or worse still, if it's what they hang on the 645 
digital.
They do that and the camera will die on the shelves as the competition pees 
their pants laughing about it.




OTOH, if people around here had tripped the shutter button of their
entirely inadequate and hopelessly anachronistic Pentax as much as
they tap their keyboard to shout their discontent, they'd probably
have worn out their cameras and lenses already.


This is probably what I did to my 60-250.

William Robb


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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Bob Sullivan]

I wish Pentax autofocus was better.
And they can implement the mind control focus points anytime now.
I bought into the rest of this stuff, so it is what it is.
Regards,  Bob S.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Tom C  wrote:
> Listen.
>
> When those of you on the list have nice things to say about Pentax or
> your gear, (speaking for those of us involved in this thread), myself
> and others with dissenting opinions don't respond with posts
> essentially telling you to go away, or stop making such celebratory
> posts.
>
> We may disagree, but you have the right to your opinion and the right
> to express it.  I believe we do as well.
>
> Tom C.
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:27 AM, paul stenquist
>  wrote:
>>
>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 10:06 AM, AlunFoto wrote:
>>
>>> 2010/2/25 Tom C :
 Words typically reveal the person. How would you suggest that I
 separate YOU from what you SAY?
 And how is you're referring to legitimate opinions and complaints as
 bitching and suggesting that list members that post such just go away,
 "find another camera maker", any less person-focused than my remark?
>>>
>>> I rest my case.
>>>
>>> Jostein
>>>
>> Well said.
>> Paul
>>> --
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>>> http://alunfoto.blogspot.com
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[John Sessoms]

From: AlunFoto

The critical qualifier in that argument is "compared to the competition".





But I digress, my point is that for K-mount, you'll have to expect the
feature implementation of Pentax to always lag behind the bigger
brands.


I think the critical question is how far behind will Pentax lag; whether 
their product strategy will keep them viable? And whether they are 
already so far behind they're in danger?


I'm sort of invested into the Pentax brand. All of my lenses (with the 
exception of one really old Vivitar screw mount 20mm) are in some 
variety of K-mount.


Most of my recent lens purchases have been from second tier vendors, 
Sigma & Tokina - although Tokina seems to have recently abandoned Pentax 
- because Pentax didn't offer the lens I wanted, even at a price I 
couldn't afford.


Because I do occasionally still shoot film, I want any new lenses I buy 
to be backward compatible with my older Pentax film bodies, which means 
"full frame".


Couple of other random thoughts ...

1. Looked around the site that had the really cheap K10/K20 batteries, 
and they have an adapter for Nikon lenses to Pentax K-bayonet. All 
manual and stop down metering, etc., but might be worth exploring if I 
ever get to the point where I don't see a future sticking with Pentax. 
Start accumulating Nikon glass.


2. Since I'd like to have it, I'm sure there are all kinds of 
technological reasons it can't be done, but I'd like to see a Pentax 
DSLR with interchangeable viewfinders like the LX. I really liked the 
Action Eyepiece.


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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Tom C]

A Kangaroo Peanut Butter Curry would hit the spot right now.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:47 AM,   wrote:
> Rob Studdert  wrote:
>
>>On 26/02/2010, William Robb  wrote:
>>
>>> Piss off little roo eater. <;-)
>>
>>Mmmm, Skippy ;-P...
>
> Kangaroo and peanut butter - two great tastes that go great together.
>
>
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Tom C]

Listen.

When those of you on the list have nice things to say about Pentax or
your gear, (speaking for those of us involved in this thread), myself
and others with dissenting opinions don't respond with posts
essentially telling you to go away, or stop making such celebratory
posts.

We may disagree, but you have the right to your opinion and the right
to express it.  I believe we do as well.

Tom C.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:27 AM, paul stenquist
 wrote:
>
> On Feb 25, 2010, at 10:06 AM, AlunFoto wrote:
>
>> 2010/2/25 Tom C :
>>> Words typically reveal the person. How would you suggest that I
>>> separate YOU from what you SAY?
>>> And how is you're referring to legitimate opinions and complaints as
>>> bitching and suggesting that list members that post such just go away,
>>> "find another camera maker", any less person-focused than my remark?
>>
>> I rest my case.
>>
>> Jostein
>>
> Well said.
> Paul
>> --
>> http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/
>> http://alunfoto.blogspot.com
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[P. J. Alling]

Won't do any good, can't find a decent Keyboard for love nor money any 
more.  (I keep searching for and recycling oldies with decent tactile feel).


On 2/25/2010 10:39 AM, Tom C wrote:

No. We'd bitch about the crap keyboard mfrs.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:38 AM, AlunFoto  wrote:
   

2010/2/25 David Savage:
 

On 25 February 2010 21:10, AlunFoto  wrote:
   

2010/2/25 Rob Studdert:
 

I think that they lag behind everyone and by more than a couple of
generations in important areas such as AF performance and mechanics
and there's really no excuse.
   

Find another camera maker, then.
 

I did.

And guess what? The grass IS greener.
   

:-)

Rob has a very salient point, though. To him the fence is a defence of
his investment in glass. That's valid for more people than him!

OTOH, if people around here had tripped the shutter button of their
entirely inadequate and hopelessly anachronistic Pentax as much as
they tap their keyboard to shout their discontent, they'd probably
have worn out their cameras and lenses already.

But then they'd bitch over the entirely inadequate and hopelessly
anachronistic image quality of their images, I guess. :-)

Jostein

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[mark]

Rob Studdert  wrote:

>On 26/02/2010, William Robb  wrote:
>
>> Piss off little roo eater. <;-)
>
>Mmmm, Skippy ;-P...

Kangaroo and peanut butter - two great tastes that go great together.


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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Tom C]

LOL.  I love that show.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Rob Studdert  wrote:
> On 26/02/2010, William Robb  wrote:
>
>> Piss off little roo eater. <;-)
>
> Mmmm, Skippy ;-P...
>
> --
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> Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours
> Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Tom C]

No. We'd bitch about the crap keyboard mfrs.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:38 AM, AlunFoto  wrote:
> 2010/2/25 David Savage :
>> On 25 February 2010 21:10, AlunFoto  wrote:
>>> 2010/2/25 Rob Studdert :
 I think that they lag behind everyone and by more than a couple of
 generations in important areas such as AF performance and mechanics
 and there's really no excuse.
>>>
>>> Find another camera maker, then.
>>
>> I did.
>>
>> And guess what? The grass IS greener.
>
> :-)
>
> Rob has a very salient point, though. To him the fence is a defence of
> his investment in glass. That's valid for more people than him!
>
> OTOH, if people around here had tripped the shutter button of their
> entirely inadequate and hopelessly anachronistic Pentax as much as
> they tap their keyboard to shout their discontent, they'd probably
> have worn out their cameras and lenses already.
>
> But then they'd bitch over the entirely inadequate and hopelessly
> anachronistic image quality of their images, I guess. :-)
>
> Jostein
>
> --
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> http://alunfoto.blogspot.com
>
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Rob Studdert]

On 26/02/2010, William Robb  wrote:

> Piss off little roo eater. <;-)

Mmmm, Skippy ;-P...

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Tom C]

Simply dichotomous - again.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:27 AM, paul stenquist
 wrote:
>
> On Feb 25, 2010, at 10:06 AM, AlunFoto wrote:
>
>> 2010/2/25 Tom C :
>>> Words typically reveal the person. How would you suggest that I
>>> separate YOU from what you SAY?
>>> And how is you're referring to legitimate opinions and complaints as
>>> bitching and suggesting that list members that post such just go away,
>>> "find another camera maker", any less person-focused than my remark?
>>
>> I rest my case.
>>
>> Jostein
>>
> Well said.
> Paul
>> --
>> http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/
>> http://alunfoto.blogspot.com
>>
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[AlunFoto]

2010/2/25 David Savage :
> On 25 February 2010 21:10, AlunFoto  wrote:
>> 2010/2/25 Rob Studdert :
>>> I think that they lag behind everyone and by more than a couple of
>>> generations in important areas such as AF performance and mechanics
>>> and there's really no excuse.
>>
>> Find another camera maker, then.
>
> I did.
>
> And guess what? The grass IS greener.

:-)

Rob has a very salient point, though. To him the fence is a defence of
his investment in glass. That's valid for more people than him!

OTOH, if people around here had tripped the shutter button of their
entirely inadequate and hopelessly anachronistic Pentax as much as
they tap their keyboard to shout their discontent, they'd probably
have worn out their cameras and lenses already.

But then they'd bitch over the entirely inadequate and hopelessly
anachronistic image quality of their images, I guess. :-)

Jostein

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Tom C]

I hate Pentax and they're the worst camera manufacturer on the planet. There.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:27 AM, paul stenquist
 wrote:
>
> On Feb 25, 2010, at 10:06 AM, AlunFoto wrote:
>
>> 2010/2/25 Tom C :
>>> Words typically reveal the person. How would you suggest that I
>>> separate YOU from what you SAY?
>>> And how is you're referring to legitimate opinions and complaints as
>>> bitching and suggesting that list members that post such just go away,
>>> "find another camera maker", any less person-focused than my remark?
>>
>> I rest my case.
>>
>> Jostein
>>
> Well said.
> Paul
>> --
>> http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/
>> http://alunfoto.blogspot.com
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[paul stenquist]

On Feb 25, 2010, at 10:06 AM, AlunFoto wrote:

> 2010/2/25 Tom C :
>> Words typically reveal the person. How would you suggest that I
>> separate YOU from what you SAY?
>> And how is you're referring to legitimate opinions and complaints as
>> bitching and suggesting that list members that post such just go away,
>> "find another camera maker", any less person-focused than my remark?
> 
> I rest my case.
> 
> Jostein
> 
Well said.
Paul
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "David Savage" 
Subject: Re: On FF and other "must have" features





Find another camera maker, then.


I did.

And guess what? The grass IS greener.



Piss off little roo eater. <;-)


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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "AlunFoto"

Subject: Re: On FF and other "must have" features



2010/2/25 William Robb :

being told to go away and stop bitching because I would like a
camera that is as good as what the competition had on the market 5 years 
ago

is unreasonable.


You can bitch about that too if you like, bro. :-)



And whose bitch are you, my friend?

William Robb 



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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[David Savage]

On 25 February 2010 21:10, AlunFoto  wrote:
> 2010/2/25 Rob Studdert :
>> I think that they lag behind everyone and by more than a couple of
>> generations in important areas such as AF performance and mechanics
>> and there's really no excuse.
>
> Find another camera maker, then.

I did.

And guess what? The grass IS greener.

DS

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Tom C]

Not guilty.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:06 AM, AlunFoto  wrote:
> 2010/2/25 Tom C :
>> Words typically reveal the person. How would you suggest that I
>> separate YOU from what you SAY?
>> And how is you're referring to legitimate opinions and complaints as
>> bitching and suggesting that list members that post such just go away,
>> "find another camera maker", any less person-focused than my remark?
>
> I rest my case.
>
> Jostein
>
> --
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> http://alunfoto.blogspot.com
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Tom C]

OK, what's the point?

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:03 AM, AlunFoto  wrote:
> 2010/2/25 Tom C :
>> Bill, I respectfully request that from now on you only say NICE things
>> about Pentax.  Stop blaspheming or you'll be excommunicated.
>
> Cheeky.
> Re-examine this thread, and see if you can actually quote me for
> praising Pentax. So, in fact you are not only being snide, but also
> missing the point.
>
> Jostein
>
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[AlunFoto]

2010/2/25 Tom C :
> Words typically reveal the person. How would you suggest that I
> separate YOU from what you SAY?
> And how is you're referring to legitimate opinions and complaints as
> bitching and suggesting that list members that post such just go away,
> "find another camera maker", any less person-focused than my remark?

I rest my case.

Jostein

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[AlunFoto]

2010/2/25 Tom C :
> Bill, I respectfully request that from now on you only say NICE things
> about Pentax.  Stop blaspheming or you'll be excommunicated.

Cheeky.
Re-examine this thread, and see if you can actually quote me for
praising Pentax. So, in fact you are not only being snide, but also
missing the point.

Jostein

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Tom C]

Words typically reveal the person. How would you suggest that I
separate YOU from what you SAY?

And how is you're referring to legitimate opinions and complaints as
bitching and suggesting that list members that post such just go away,
"find another camera maker", any less person-focused than my remark?

Tom C.


On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 9:53 AM, AlunFoto  wrote:
> 2010/2/25 Tom C :
>> I hope Jostein does not work in the Customer Service department of his
>> organization.
>
> I knew I could rely on you for changing focus from topic to person, Tom.
>
> Jostein
>
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[AlunFoto]

2010/2/25 Tom C :
> I hope Jostein does not work in the Customer Service department of his
> organization.

I knew I could rely on you for changing focus from topic to person, Tom.

Jostein

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Tom C]

Bill, I respectfully request that from now on you only say NICE things
about Pentax.  Stop blaspheming or you'll be excommunicated.

Tom C.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 9:49 AM, AlunFoto  wrote:
> 2010/2/25 William Robb :
>> being told to go away and stop bitching because I would like a
>> camera that is as good as what the competition had on the market 5 years ago
>> is unreasonable.
>
> You can bitch about that too if you like, bro. :-)
>
> Jostein

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[AlunFoto]

2010/2/25 William Robb :
> being told to go away and stop bitching because I would like a
> camera that is as good as what the competition had on the market 5 years ago
> is unreasonable.

You can bitch about that too if you like, bro. :-)

Jostein


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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Tom C]

con't... doesn't use Pentax bodies or glass and there's gazillions of
fine images created sans Pentax.

Tom C.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Tom C  wrote:
> I do have to say that I'm getting closer to saying 'Screw Pentax', I
> don't care about the cost of changing systems, I'm simply tired of
> them dicking around, and me dicking around waiting for them to stop
> dicking around.
>
> Regardless of how good certain pieces of Pentax glass may be, it's
> easily apparent that the majority of the world doesn't
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Tom C  wrote:
>> I hope Jostein does not work in the Customer Service department of his
>> organization.
>>
>> Tom C.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 9:00 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>>>
>>> - Original Message - From: "Rob Studdert"
>>> Subject: Re: On FF and other "must have" features
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 26/02/2010, AlunFoto  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Find another camera maker, then. One that's better at excuses, if
>>>>> nothing else. :-)
>>>>
>>>> As you may appreciate it's far easier said than done,
>>>
>>> I find these dismissive comments to be a little less than smart as well.
>>> I've been very good to Pentax over the years regarding supporting their lens
>>> manufacture, being told to go away and stop bitching because I would like a
>>> camera that is as good as what the competition had on the market 5 years ago
>>> is unreasonable.
>>>
>>> William Robb
>>>
>>> --
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>>> follow the directions.
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[mark]

"William Robb"  wrote:

>being told to go away and stop bitching because I would like a 
>camera that is as good as what the competition had on the market 5 years ago 
>is unreasonable.

That's a "Mark"



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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Tom C]

I do have to say that I'm getting closer to saying 'Screw Pentax', I
don't care about the cost of changing systems, I'm simply tired of
them dicking around, and me dicking around waiting for them to stop
dicking around.

Regardless of how good certain pieces of Pentax glass may be, it's
easily apparent that the majority of the world doesn't

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Tom C  wrote:
> I hope Jostein does not work in the Customer Service department of his
> organization.
>
> Tom C.
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 9:00 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>>
>> ----- Original Message - From: "Rob Studdert"
>> Subject: Re: On FF and other "must have" features
>>
>>
>>> On 26/02/2010, AlunFoto  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Find another camera maker, then. One that's better at excuses, if
>>>> nothing else. :-)
>>>
>>> As you may appreciate it's far easier said than done,
>>
>> I find these dismissive comments to be a little less than smart as well.
>> I've been very good to Pentax over the years regarding supporting their lens
>> manufacture, being told to go away and stop bitching because I would like a
>> camera that is as good as what the competition had on the market 5 years ago
>> is unreasonable.
>>
>> William Robb
>>
>> --
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Tom C]

I hope Jostein does not work in the Customer Service department of his
organization.

Tom C.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 9:00 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "Rob Studdert"
> Subject: Re: On FF and other "must have" features
>
>
>> On 26/02/2010, AlunFoto  wrote:
>>
>>> Find another camera maker, then. One that's better at excuses, if
>>> nothing else. :-)
>>
>> As you may appreciate it's far easier said than done,
>
> I find these dismissive comments to be a little less than smart as well.
> I've been very good to Pentax over the years regarding supporting their lens
> manufacture, being told to go away and stop bitching because I would like a
> camera that is as good as what the competition had on the market 5 years ago
> is unreasonable.
>
> William Robb
>
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Rob Studdert"

Subject: Re: On FF and other "must have" features



On 26/02/2010, AlunFoto  wrote:


Find another camera maker, then. One that's better at excuses, if
nothing else. :-)


As you may appreciate it's far easier said than done,


I find these dismissive comments to be a little less than smart as well.
I've been very good to Pentax over the years regarding supporting their lens 
manufacture, being told to go away and stop bitching because I would like a 
camera that is as good as what the competition had on the market 5 years ago 
is unreasonable.


William Robb 



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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[eckinator]

2010/2/25 AlunFoto :
>
> Meh. Find a justfiable luxury then. One you can enjoy without being
> annoyed. Life contains too small a number of 1/125s slices as it is.
> :-)

Naaah I don't wanna spend my life being annoyed - I just go out and do
stuff and enjoy it the best I can. If I find something unjustifiable I
don't do/buy it and move on happily. Money not spent on cheaper Pentax
gear is after all money I can do other things with. PDML is a nice
group and why change what works for me. It is jus ta concern that
Pentax may move things to a point where I can't keep not wondering if
Canikony wouldn't suit my NEEDS better. My gripes are so few, someone
will have to address them sooner or later.

Cheers
Ecke
PS: the L Bracket is a great enhancement, thanks Jostein!

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Rob Studdert]

On 26/02/2010, AlunFoto  wrote:

> Find another camera maker, then. One that's better at excuses, if
> nothing else. :-)

As you may appreciate it's far easier said than done, I currently own
15 pieces of Pentax glass and one nice V125/25 in K mount (though I do
have another in Nikon mount ;-) and not one of them is particularly
inexpensive and I know and like all of them. I simply don't fancy
trying to sell the lot so that I can get a body that behaves like
anyone would reasonably expect of a current body and a new set of
lenses that I may or may not like. The cost of the bodies is a piss in
the ocean compared to the $ I have tied in lenses, I'd pay good money
for a decent k-mount body.

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Rob Studdert"

Subject: Re: On FF and other "must have" features





I think that they lag behind everyone and by more than a couple of
generations in important areas such as AF performance and mechanics
and there's really no excuse.


I think in AF they are 3-4 generations back at the moment, but I might be 
being a little hard on them this morning.


William Robb 



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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[AlunFoto]

2010/2/25 eckinator :
> yeah and now they're moving service and manufacturing quality down and
> lens prices to meaningless levels - some prices down 20% others up
> 136% and actually making their products an unjustifiable luxury... I
> for one will give them another year to see if this is a transitionary
> hiccup into somrthing better or a new owner imposed operation crapola
> of some sort...

Meh. Find a justfiable luxury then. One you can enjoy without being
annoyed. Life contains too small a number of 1/125s slices as it is.
:-)

Jostein

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[AlunFoto]

2010/2/25 Rob Studdert :
> I think that they lag behind everyone and by more than a couple of
> generations in important areas such as AF performance and mechanics
> and there's really no excuse.

Find another camera maker, then. One that's better at excuses, if
nothing else. :-)

Jostein

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[eckinator]

2010/2/25 AlunFoto :
>
> The critical qualifier in that argument is "compared to the competition".
>
> Take a critical look backwards on Pentax' K-mount camera development,
> and you'll find that since the introduction of autofocus, or maybe
> earlier, they have never been spitzen technologists.
> [...][moved up]
> But I digress, my point is that for K-mount, you'll have to expect the
> feature implementation of Pentax to always lag behind the bigger
> brands.
[moved down]
> On the contrary,
> they've specialised on packing a max number of features per price
> class, introducing new-to-them tech at least one product cycle behind
> Nikon and Canon.

yeah and now they're moving service and manufacturing quality down and
lens prices to meaningless levels - some prices down 20% others up
136% and actually making their products an unjustifiable luxury... I
for one will give them another year to see if this is a transitionary
hiccup into somrthing better or a new owner imposed operation crapola
of some sort...

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Rob Studdert]

On 25/02/2010, AlunFoto  wrote:

> But I digress, my point is that for K-mount, you'll have to expect the
> feature implementation of Pentax to always lag behind the bigger
> brands.

I think that they lag behind everyone and by more than a couple of
generations in important areas such as AF performance and mechanics
and there's really no excuse.

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[AlunFoto]

2010/2/25 Rob Studdert :
> I don't think it's that simple, I have looked at enough RAW files from
> the K7/K20D to know what the IQ differences are. The AF still sucks
> compared to the competition and the metering is no problem in any
> case, if it's critical I use the digital preview (set as a custom
> function on the K-x's green button), simply can't go wrong then. I can
> put up with some of the little inconveniences of the K-x and still
> feel that I have a very competent photographic instrument in hand.

The critical qualifier in that argument is "compared to the competition".

Take a critical look backwards on Pentax' K-mount camera development,
and you'll find that since the introduction of autofocus, or maybe
earlier, they have never been spitzen technologists. On the contrary,
they've specialised on packing a max number of features per price
class, introducing new-to-them tech at least one product cycle behind
Nikon and Canon.

Arguably, the 645D will be lagging even further behind the competitors
in its particular niche. That's another factor making the introduction
of this camera a daring and quite interesting one, IMO. It may head
straight for oblivion, create its own little narrow niche and barely
survive, or become a serious and successful competitor to the other
brands. I have no idea which... :-)

But I digress, my point is that for K-mount, you'll have to expect the
feature implementation of Pentax to always lag behind the bigger
brands.

Jostein

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Tom C]

I concur with Paul on this.  To put it bluntly and unscientifically,
the metering and exposure control on a K20D (and assumed K10D), is far
behind a K-7.

I'm not sure I'd give a friend a K10D or my used K20D.

This is the curse of the digital age.  Is giving a friend, a camera
you despise a favor or an evil trick?

OTOH, I don't have many qualms abot the K7.

Tom C.


On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 9:32 PM, paul stenquist  wrote:
>
> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:18 PM, Adam Maas wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:00 PM, paul stenquist
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> The K7 high iSO performance is decent -- at least a stop better than the 
>>> K20D. It's quite acceptable at 6400 and darn good at 3200. And it's 
>>> metering is apparently far better than the Kx. That counts for a lot at 
>>> high ISO.
>>> Paul
>>>
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> The metering's definitely better on the K-7, but everything I'm seeing
>> is showing noise performance to be similar to the K20D given the same
>> scene and exposure, the net win is entirely from the better metering
>> and thus disappears when you stop relying on AE, which I do in really
>> low light.
>>
>> When I bought the E-30, I looked closely at the K-7 (it was
>> fundamentally the camera I wanted), but I saw little difference in the
>> actual high ISO performance between it anc the E-30, maybe a half stop
>> at most (the K-7 is better at 3200 than the E-30, but 6400 on the K-7
>> is definitely worse than 3200 on the E-30). The K-x on the other hand
>> is damned near clean at ISO 6400 and remarkably good at 12,800. I'd
>> rate it almost 2 stops better than the K-7 for noise.
>>
>> Note I pretty much end up ignoring the meter in really low light, I
>> work from the histogram instead and reshoot if necessary.
>
> I too work from the histogram when possible. But some shots can't be redone. 
> In those cases, the K7 metering is a real plus. It's very good in all 
> conditions.
> Paul

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[paul stenquist]

On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:18 PM, Adam Maas wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:00 PM, paul stenquist
>  wrote:
>> 
>> The K7 high iSO performance is decent -- at least a stop better than the 
>> K20D. It's quite acceptable at 6400 and darn good at 3200. And it's metering 
>> is apparently far better than the Kx. That counts for a lot at high ISO.
>> Paul
>> 
> 
> Paul,
> 
> The metering's definitely better on the K-7, but everything I'm seeing
> is showing noise performance to be similar to the K20D given the same
> scene and exposure, the net win is entirely from the better metering
> and thus disappears when you stop relying on AE, which I do in really
> low light.
> 
> When I bought the E-30, I looked closely at the K-7 (it was
> fundamentally the camera I wanted), but I saw little difference in the
> actual high ISO performance between it anc the E-30, maybe a half stop
> at most (the K-7 is better at 3200 than the E-30, but 6400 on the K-7
> is definitely worse than 3200 on the E-30). The K-x on the other hand
> is damned near clean at ISO 6400 and remarkably good at 12,800. I'd
> rate it almost 2 stops better than the K-7 for noise.
> 
> Note I pretty much end up ignoring the meter in really low light, I
> work from the histogram instead and reshoot if necessary.

I too work from the histogram when possible. But some shots can't be redone. In 
those cases, the K7 metering is a real plus. It's very good in all conditions.
Paul

> And that's
> how I've worked with all my digital cameras (including the Nikons
> which have better metering than the K-7). If I really have to meter at
> high ISO, I use the spot meter.
> 
> -- 
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> http://www.mawz.ca
> Explorations of the City Around Us.
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Adam Maas]

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:00 PM, paul stenquist
 wrote:
>
> The K7 high iSO performance is decent -- at least a stop better than the 
> K20D. It's quite acceptable at 6400 and darn good at 3200. And it's metering 
> is apparently far better than the Kx. That counts for a lot at high ISO.
> Paul
>

Paul,

The metering's definitely better on the K-7, but everything I'm seeing
is showing noise performance to be similar to the K20D given the same
scene and exposure, the net win is entirely from the better metering
and thus disappears when you stop relying on AE, which I do in really
low light.

When I bought the E-30, I looked closely at the K-7 (it was
fundamentally the camera I wanted), but I saw little difference in the
actual high ISO performance between it anc the E-30, maybe a half stop
at most (the K-7 is better at 3200 than the E-30, but 6400 on the K-7
is definitely worse than 3200 on the E-30). The K-x on the other hand
is damned near clean at ISO 6400 and remarkably good at 12,800. I'd
rate it almost 2 stops better than the K-7 for noise.

Note I pretty much end up ignoring the meter in really low light, I
work from the histogram instead and reshoot if necessary. And that's
how I've worked with all my digital cameras (including the Nikons
which have better metering than the K-7). If I really have to meter at
high ISO, I use the spot meter.

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Rob Studdert]

On 25/02/2010, paul stenquist  wrote:

> And I admire your enthusiasm for the KX. But the K7 isn't the K20D, so your 
> reasoning doesn't make much sense. I think the camera deserves a fair 
> appraisal. Your evaluation, which is apparently based only on hearsay, 
> doesn't meet that standard.

I don't think it's that simple, I have looked at enough RAW files from
the K7/K20D to know what the IQ differences are. The AF still sucks
compared to the competition and the metering is no problem in any
case, if it's critical I use the digital preview (set as a custom
function on the K-x's green button), simply can't go wrong then. I can
put up with some of the little inconveniences of the K-x and still
feel that I have a very competent photographic instrument in hand.

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[P. J. Alling]

Since I didn't buy the K20D at the beginning of it's life cycle, but 
near the end, I didn't pay a lot more for it than a K-x is going for 
right now.  So I guess I don't feel particularly stupid for making the 
purchase.  I also didn't trade up from a K10D so the improvement in 
capability was considerable.  If I could have waited another 3 months I 
probably would have gotten a K-7 and I know I wouldn't be carping about 
it's shortcomings.


On 2/24/2010 10:39 PM, Rob Studdert wrote:

On 25/02/2010, paul stenquist  wrote:

   

The K7 high iSO performance is decent -- at least a stop better than the K20D. 
It's quite acceptable at 6400 and darn good at 3200. And it's metering is 
apparently far better than the Kx. That counts for a lot at high ISO.
 

Paul I appreciate your enthusiasm for the K7 but if I bought the K7
I'd feel just as stupid as I do now for buying the K20D. And if I
intended to buy anything more costly than the K-x now it wouldn't be a
Pentax.

   



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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[paul stenquist]

On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:39 PM, Rob Studdert wrote:

> On 25/02/2010, paul stenquist  wrote:
> 
>> The K7 high iSO performance is decent -- at least a stop better than the 
>> K20D. It's quite acceptable at 6400 and darn good at 3200. And it's metering 
>> is apparently far better than the Kx. That counts for a lot at high ISO.
> 
> Paul I appreciate your enthusiasm for the K7 but if I bought the K7
> I'd feel just as stupid as I do now for buying the K20D. And if I
> intended to buy anything more costly than the K-x now it wouldn't be a
> Pentax.

And I admire your enthusiasm for the KX. But the K7 isn't the K20D, so your 
reasoning doesn't make much sense. I think the camera deserves a fair 
appraisal. Your evaluation, which is apparently based only on hearsay, doesn't 
meet that standard. 
> 
> -- 
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> Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours
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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Rob Studdert]

On 25/02/2010, paul stenquist  wrote:

> The K7 high iSO performance is decent -- at least a stop better than the 
> K20D. It's quite acceptable at 6400 and darn good at 3200. And it's metering 
> is apparently far better than the Kx. That counts for a lot at high ISO.

Paul I appreciate your enthusiasm for the K7 but if I bought the K7
I'd feel just as stupid as I do now for buying the K20D. And if I
intended to buy anything more costly than the K-x now it wouldn't be a
Pentax.

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[paul stenquist]

On Feb 24, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Rob Studdert wrote:

> On 25/02/2010, Adam Maas  wrote:
>> Personally, I need a decent viewfinder, decent AF on the centre point,
>> good high ISO quality, good metering and compact size. The K-x has the
>> first 3 (I'm amazed at the high ISO quality, it's closer to D700 than
>> D300) but is still lacking on metering.
>> 
>> If Pentax did nothing but put the K-x's sensor and processing chain
>> into a K-7 and increase the buffer to K-7 levels, I'd have exactly the
>> camera I want. The K-7 is essentially there aside from high ISO
>> performance.
>> 
>> -Adam
>> Who'se overjoyed with the K-x's high ISO and processing ISO 6400 shots
>> with NR off.
> 
> I'm right there with you, considering flogging off the K20D whilst the
> going's still relatively good. The K-x will easily tide me over 'til a
> K7 replacement with decent high ISO performance appears.

The K7 high iSO performance is decent -- at least a stop better than the K20D. 
It's quite acceptable at 6400 and darn good at 3200. And it's metering is 
apparently far better than the Kx. That counts for a lot at high ISO.
Paul

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Rob Studdert]

On 25/02/2010, Adam Maas  wrote:
> Personally, I need a decent viewfinder, decent AF on the centre point,
> good high ISO quality, good metering and compact size. The K-x has the
> first 3 (I'm amazed at the high ISO quality, it's closer to D700 than
> D300) but is still lacking on metering.
>
> If Pentax did nothing but put the K-x's sensor and processing chain
> into a K-7 and increase the buffer to K-7 levels, I'd have exactly the
> camera I want. The K-7 is essentially there aside from high ISO
> performance.
>
> -Adam
> Who'se overjoyed with the K-x's high ISO and processing ISO 6400 shots
> with NR off.

I'm right there with you, considering flogging off the K20D whilst the
going's still relatively good. The K-x will easily tide me over 'til a
K7 replacement with decent high ISO performance appears.

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Adam Maas]

Personally, I need a decent viewfinder, decent AF on the centre point,
good high ISO quality, good metering and compact size. The K-x has the
first 3 (I'm amazed at the high ISO quality, it's closer to D700 than
D300) but is still lacking on metering.

If Pentax did nothing but put the K-x's sensor and processing chain
into a K-7 and increase the buffer to K-7 levels, I'd have exactly the
camera I want. The K-7 is essentially there aside from high ISO
performance.

-Adam
Who'se overjoyed with the K-x's high ISO and processing ISO 6400 shots
with NR off.

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 9:06 PM, P. J. Alling
 wrote:
> On 2/24/2010 8:28 AM, frank theriault wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 4:23 AM, Larry Colen  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I think that most photographers would agree that there maybe a dozen
>>> "must
>>> have" features on a camera.
>>>
>>
>> I have three "must have" features:
>>
>> 1) shutter release
>> 2) aperture control
>> 3) focus*
>>
>
>                    ^
>>
>> The rest is all frippery
>>
>> cheers,
>> frank, feeling rather curmudgeonly this morning...
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> *Optional
>
> You made a small mistake, but I fixed it for you. O:-)
>
>
>
>
> --
> {\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\deff0\deflang1033{\fonttbl{\f0\fnil\fcharset0
> Courier New;}}
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> interface subtly weird.\par
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>
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http://www.mawz.ca
Explorations of the City Around Us.

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[P. J. Alling]

On 2/24/2010 8:28 AM, frank theriault wrote:

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 4:23 AM, Larry Colen  wrote:
   

I think that most photographers would agree that there maybe a dozen "must
have" features on a camera.
 

I have three "must have" features:

1) shutter release
2) aperture control
3) focus*
   

^

The rest is all frippery

cheers,
frank, feeling rather curmudgeonly this morning...

;-)



   

*Optional

You made a small mistake, but I fixed it for you. O:-)




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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[frank theriault]

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 8:32 AM, eckinator  wrote:
> 2010/2/24 frank theriault :
>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 4:23 AM, Larry Colen  wrote:
>>> I think that most photographers would agree that there maybe a dozen "must
>>> have" features on a camera. 
>>
>> I have three "must have" features:
>>
>> 1) shutter release
>> 2) aperture control
>> 3) focus
>
> 4) image composition
> 5) shutter speed
> 6a) wind/rewind
> 6b) memory card slot

Yeah, okay, a shutter speed control would be good...

;-)

My point is that most "features" are nothing more than rarely used
gimmicks.  They're marketing tools more than photographic ones.

I'm not saying we should go back to the "good old days" of mechanical
cameras with all-manual controls, but I think some people would do
well to shoot with such a camera for a while.  I'm appalled at the
number of photographers (rather, people who hold themselves out as
photographers) I've talked to recently who have no idea of what
shutter speed or aperture is.

As for features, for the type of photography I usually do, I don't
tend to use them, so whatever's on the camera, I'm happy with.  Sure,
I use some of them, but only because they're there anyway.  They don't
tend to be why I'll buy or not buy a camera.

cheers,
frank






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"Sharpness is a bourgeois concept."  -Henri Cartier-Bresson

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[eckinator]

edit:
2010/2/24 eckinator :
> 2010/2/24 frank theriault :
>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 4:23 AM, Larry Colen  wrote:
>>> I think that most photographers would agree that there maybe a dozen "must
>>> have" features on a camera. 
>>
>> I have three "must have" features:
>>
>> 1) shutter release
>> 2) aperture control
>> 3) focus/blurgeoisie
>
> 4) image composition
> 5) shutter speed
> 6a) film transport
> 6b) data storage
>
> go on =)
>

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[eckinator]

2010/2/24 frank theriault :
> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 4:23 AM, Larry Colen  wrote:
>> I think that most photographers would agree that there maybe a dozen "must
>> have" features on a camera. 
>
> I have three "must have" features:
>
> 1) shutter release
> 2) aperture control
> 3) focus

4) image composition
5) shutter speed
6a) wind/rewind
6b) memory card slot

go on =)

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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[frank theriault]

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 4:23 AM, Larry Colen  wrote:
> I think that most photographers would agree that there maybe a dozen "must
> have" features on a camera. 

I have three "must have" features:

1) shutter release
2) aperture control
3) focus

The rest is all frippery

cheers,
frank, feeling rather curmudgeonly this morning...

;-)



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Re: On FF and other "must have" features

[Larry Colen]

I think that most photographers would agree that there maybe a dozen  
"must have" features on a camera.  I know that I almost never touch  
most of the bells and whistles on my K20.  The problem that designers  
face is that for every person, those dozen features are different.


The problem that the marketing department faces is to convince  
potential customers that their camera has the most of the "must have"  
features.  This is easiest to do with performance metrics that are  
easy to measure: megapixels, frame rate, sensor size. Do you ever see  
an ad that says "Our product may not have the best numbers, but it's  
good enough, and chances are you'd never notice the difference"?


One of the most important lessons of my engineering career is that  
people don't come to you asking for a solution to their problem.  They  
come to you asking you to do what they think will solve their problem.


Let's say that the D700 has the level of low-light performance that I  
need/want. It has a full frame sensor, does that mean that I need  
Pentax to make a full frame camera to get that level of performance?   
Not really, I'd be  happy with an APS sensor with have the pixels of  
the D700, if it had the same level of performance. In some ways I'd be  
happier, because APS format lenses tend to be less expensive for the  
same level of performance as full frame.  I wonder if the reasons  
there isn't a smaller sized version of the D700 sensor aren't:
1) If they reserve the best sensor for the full frame lenses, they get  
more profit on the more expensive lenses that go with it.
2) There aren't any good, standardized metrics for noise and ISO  
performance, and if there were, they'd be hard to understand.  It's a  
lot easier for the marketing droids to sell "bigger sensors" and "more  
pixels" than it is for them to sell lower noise, especially when the  
SNR probably isn't linear with either ISO or light level.


Besides, if Pentax were to sell a direct competitor to the Nikon D3S,  
I wouldn't be complaining about lack of features on the camera, I'd be  
complaining about lack of money in my bank account.


I will also note that from the marketing perspective that it is easier  
to sell BIGGER and MORE!!!, than esoteric subtleties of performance  
and usability, that the 645 will trump full frame.


In any case, I use the tools that I have, and can (pretend to)  
afford.  With a little extra work on my part and manual exposure and  
focus, I can get similar image quality to people who have cameras that  
do that all for them.  I do miss an occasional shot because it takes  
me longer to set up, but the lower cost of my system allows me to get  
shots that they wouldn't because they spent all their money on a more  
expensive body and a couple of slow, image stabilized lenses.


--
Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est





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