Re: The State of The List
Paul Sorenson allarou...@earthlink.net writes: So...how many of us can kick in 20USD and see how far it goes? Good idea! Done! -tih -- Writing about music is like dancing about architecture. --Frank Zappa -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/17 John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com: There was some news recently that Neanderthals and modern humans may have been inter-fertile, and that the Neanderthals may not have gone extinct as such, but were just subsumed into the mix. Love conquers all so they say. Or perhaps they were screwed for their existence... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/17 John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com: There was some news recently that Neanderthals and modern humans may have been inter-fertile, and that the Neanderthals may not have gone extinct as such, but were just subsumed into the mix. Eg. what I linked to earlier in this thread: http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100512/full/465148a.html Love conquers all so they say. If the results are correct, it means they were physically close enough together for intercourse, and that they were biologically compatible. To put love into intercourse is unfounded romanticism. It might have been rape. The social circumstances could be anywhere between respectful and peaceful coexistence, constant war, or assimilation through slavery. My point was that if you look at modern man's known history and tally the societies that have not resorted to the latter two, you get a pretty short list. The likelihood that what we are today has evolved from something both expansionistic and exceedingly peaceful is pitifully small in my opinion. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: The State of The List
If the results are correct, it means they were physically close enough together for intercourse, and that they were biologically compatible. To put love into intercourse is unfounded romanticism. It might have been rape. The social circumstances could be anywhere between respectful and peaceful coexistence, constant war, or assimilation through slavery. My point was that if you look at modern man's known history and tally the societies that have not resorted to the latter two, you get a pretty short list. The likelihood that what we are today has evolved from something both expansionistic and exceedingly peaceful is pitifully small in my opinion. As I mentioned before, you can't take historical behaviour as a reliable guide to prehistoric behaviour. We don't need to have been 'expansionistic' as you put it to have peacefully colonised so much of the globe in the prehistoric era. There are many other possibilities. Populations often move to avoid conflict over resources, particularly when they are not tied to a specific territory by agriculture. There are also frequently cultural norms which cause groups to split when they reach a certain size and move into new territory, and of course changes in the environment also drive migrations. The people involved don't need to be aware that they are migrating, or have any type of expansionist or exploratory agenda, although we like to flatter ourselves that they did. By following and exploiting a sufficiently rich food source such as the shoreline, people could have made very small and peaceful migrations to Australia, for instance, in a relatively short time. Each individual migration may have been imperceptible to the people involved, but looking back through the depth of time it appears to us like a massive, and rapid journey. When the climatic conditions changed to open a pathway into Europe, people probably entered using the same or similar mechanisms for all previous migrations, following shorelines and river valleys, and tracking herds drifting into new places as a result of climate change. The Neandertal population was always extremely small - there was an awful lot of room in Europe to expand into, and no shortage of resources. Some estimates based on genetic variability in DNA samples suggest a maximum of about 70,000 individual Neandertals at any one time from about 70,000 years ago. They were probably not competing very much for resources with us, and it's likely that meetings between us and them were few and far between, but with such a small population so widely dispersed (they ranged from Gibraltar to the Steppes) it seems very improbable to me that there would have been enough violent contact to put them out of business. They were either on their way out anyway because of environmental changes, or the little bit of extra competition arising from our remote presence pushed a struggling population over the edge. The idea that we deliberately killed them all is just not very parsimonious as an explanation. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/17 Bob W p...@web-options.com: My point was that if you look at modern man's known history and tally the societies that have not resorted to the latter two, you get a pretty short list. The likelihood that what we are today has evolved from something both expansionistic and exceedingly peaceful is pitifully small in my opinion. As I mentioned before, you can't take historical behaviour as a reliable guide to prehistoric behaviour. Sure it's unreliable. But to deny the possibility of it happening is even more so. The idea that we deliberately killed them all is just not very parsimonious as an explanation. I think we will just end up repeating ourselves here. Both of us have pointed at several mechanisms other than peace-and-love by which modern humans replaced the 'thals. Call me pessimist on our ancestors' behalf, if you like. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On Jun 15, 2010, at 16:17 , David J Brooks wrote: On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 5:18 AM, eckinator eckina...@gmail.com wrote: Indeed. Who ever said more power means better use? Tim Allen. Right on! uargh huh huh hungh Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com There is no off position to the genius switch. Genius can, however, be observed as insanity. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/16 paul stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net: But it's politically correct to assume that the nasty and violent humans caused the demise of the gentle and peace-loving Neanderthals. Don't see where political correctness came into this equation... Nobody knows if humans were more or less nasty than neanderthals. What we know is that modern humans go homicidal over mere tribal differences, have an excellent record of eliminating competitors on their level in the food chain, and possible predators as well. To assume that they somehow did away with the neanderthals in a... hmmm... less than including way... is just a pragmatic approach. If that's politics for you, well then it must be the oldest political direction in human history... :-) Based on some of what I've read about recent Neanderthal discoveries, it may well have been assimilation and procreative mingling that led to the disappearance of the Neanderthals. Of course, natural disasters and disease are among the numerous possible causes as well. Combat is probably the least likely explanation. As BobW pointed to, combat is not the only way. Competitive exclusion and parasite/disease resistance would do nicely too. For all we know the neanderthals could have been particularly susceptible to a disease transferred by, as you say, procreative mingling. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On 6/16/2010 3:56 AM, AlunFoto wrote:
2010/6/16 paul stenquistpnstenqu...@comcast.net:
But it's politically correct to assume that the nasty and violent humans
caused the demise of the gentle and peace-loving Neanderthals.
Don't see where political correctness came into this equation...
Nobody knows if humans were more or less nasty than neanderthals.
What we know is that modern humans go homicidal over mere tribal
differences, have an excellent record of eliminating competitors on
their level in the food chain, and possible predators as well. To
assume that they somehow did away with the neanderthals in a...
hmmm... less than including way... is just a pragmatic approach. If
that's politics for you, well then it must be the oldest political
direction in human history... :-)
I think you just described the Great Apes in general.
Based on some of what I've read about recent Neanderthal discoveries,
it may well have been assimilation and procreative mingling that led to
the disappearance of the Neanderthals. Of course, natural disasters
and disease are among the numerous possible causes as well. Combat
is probably the least likely explanation.
As BobW pointed to, combat is not the only way. Competitive exclusion
and parasite/disease resistance would do nicely too. For all we know
the neanderthals could have been particularly susceptible to a disease
transferred by, as you say, procreative mingling.
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RE: The State of The List
2010/6/16 paul stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net: But it's politically correct to assume that the nasty and violent humans caused the demise of the gentle and peace-loving Neanderthals. I don't think it's a matter of political correctness, but of people retaining a belief that was current in the scientific community for a long time (Man the Hunter) and was used to explain this. The imagery was so powerful (see 2001 A Space Odyssey, for example) that the last 40-50 years of research has not entirely removed it from the popular imagination. [...] As BobW pointed to, combat is not the only way. Competitive exclusion and parasite/disease resistance would do nicely too. For all we know the neanderthals could have been particularly susceptible to a disease transferred by, as you say, procreative mingling. it's also entirely possible that modern people had nothing at all to do with the extinction of the Neandertals. They may have been on their way out anyway, as a result of changes to the environment to which they could not adapt. At the same time, modern humans were able to exploit the changing environment, which is why we entered Europe at the same time as the Neandertals were expiring. One event did not necessarily cause the other - they may have had the same cause. Remember that however pleasant it is now, for much of modern human existence Europe was a remote and impossible place for us to get to and to live in. Depending on how the evidence is interpreted, we may have got to Australia as much 30,000 years before we got to Europe! Yet the Neandertals thrived in those conditions. It should not be much of a surprise to find that when conditions had softened enough for us, the Neandertals came under environmental stress. I am on holiday in the Cevennes next week and the week following - I hope to be able to visit some sites where Cro-Magnon finds were made in the 19th C, including la caverne de l'homme mort, where some 50 individuals were found, most of whom had been trepanned. They were probably early Pentax shooters. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: The State of The List
Don't see where political correctness came into this equation... Nobody knows if humans were more or less nasty than neanderthals. What we know is that modern humans go homicidal over mere tribal differences, have an excellent record of eliminating competitors on their level in the food chain, and possible predators as well. To assume that they somehow did away with the neanderthals in a... hmmm... less than including way... is just a pragmatic approach. If that's politics for you, well then it must be the oldest political direction in human history... :-) I think you just described the Great Apes in general. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eubDSQrFako -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: The State of The List
Don't see where political correctness came into this equation... Nobody knows if humans were more or less nasty than neanderthals. What we know is that modern humans go homicidal over mere tribal differences, have an excellent record of eliminating competitors on their level in the food chain, and possible predators as well. To assume that they somehow did away with the neanderthals in a... hmmm... less than including way... is just a pragmatic approach. If that's politics for you, well then it must be the oldest political direction in human history... :-) I think you just described the Great Apes in general. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eubDSQrFako Actually, responding to my own post, it's not just bonobos that are the exception among the great apes. Violence as a whole is the exception among great apes. Gorillas, bonobos, orang utans are not violent and they do not go around eliminating competitors. Among common chimpanzees there have been 'wars' between groups, but even these appear to be the exception. I don't think there is much evidence to support the idea that modern humans are genetically determined to be homicidal maniacs eliminating all competition - I think that the type of violence described above is a result of cultural factors arising from the adoption of agriculture as our principle way of making a living. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/16 Bob W p...@web-options.com: it's also entirely possible that modern people had nothing at all to do with the extinction of the Neandertals. They may have been on their way out anyway, as a result of changes to the environment to which they could not adapt. At the same time, modern humans were able to exploit the changing environment, which is why we entered Europe at the same time as the Neandertals were expiring. One event did not necessarily cause the other - they may have had the same cause. If climate alone caused the 'thals' demise, modern man could have been expanding into vacant territory. However if the new studies correctly indicate interbreeding, it means that there was at least a partial overlap in the distribution ranges as the 'thals declined. Climate change could very well have skewed the competitive balance, but whoever has the edge would fast-track the other to exclusion. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/16 Bob W p...@web-options.com: I don't think there is much evidence to support the idea that modern humans are genetically determined to be homicidal maniacs eliminating all competition - I think that the type of violence described above is a result of cultural factors arising from the adoption of agriculture as our principle way of making a living. Oh, I agree that being homicidal maniacs is a cultural thing! :-) I find it hard to believe it to start with agriculture, though. Any kind of natural resource worth monopolising would have the same effect. Like hunting along animal migration routes, for example. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/16 P. J. Alling webstertwenty...@gmail.com: I think you just described the Great Apes in general. Ohhh. that begs the comment speak for yourself... :-) -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: The State of The List
If climate alone caused the 'thals' demise, modern man could have been expanding into vacant territory. However if the new studies correctly indicate interbreeding, it means that there was at least a partial overlap in the distribution ranges as the 'thals declined. there doesn't seem to be any doubt that they co-existed - in fact there seems to have been a certain amount of cultural interchange between them (stealing each other's ideas, in other words), so an overlap in their ranges doesn't depend on evidence of interbreeding, and doesn't imply it either. However, I would expect, human nature being what it is, that if they met then at least some of them would have shagged. We know that some people shag goats* so why wouldn't they shag Neandertals if they got the chance**? And presumably vice versa. But it doesn't necessarily mean they produced any offspring, let alone fertile offspring. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see alternative explanations of the recent studies being offered very soon. After all, it's only within the last few years that conclusive genetic 'proof' was offered which showed no hybridisation. * present company excepted ** I think I've woken up with a few myself. And I suspect the feeling was mutual in some cases Climate change could very well have skewed the competitive balance, but whoever has the edge would fast-track the other to exclusion. I think that it is likely what happened, but we can't come to a definite conclusion yet. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On Jun 16, 2010, at 3:56 AM, AlunFoto wrote: 2010/6/16 paul stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net: But it's politically correct to assume that the nasty and violent humans caused the demise of the gentle and peace-loving Neanderthals. Don't see where political correctness came into this equation... Only in that it's become fashionable, at least in the U.S., to emphasize what's wrong over what's right. A belief that most men are beasts enables an air of moral superiority that many find very satisfying. It's an oversimplification, but this attitude is frequently part of a package of beliefs that is often described as political correctness. Moral correctness might be a better term, but we're stuck with PC. Paul Nobody knows if humans were more or less nasty than neanderthals. What we know is that modern humans go homicidal over mere tribal differences, have an excellent record of eliminating competitors on their level in the food chain, and possible predators as well. To assume that they somehow did away with the neanderthals in a... hmmm... less than including way... is just a pragmatic approach. If that's politics for you, well then it must be the oldest political direction in human history... :-) Based on some of what I've read about recent Neanderthal discoveries, it may well have been assimilation and procreative mingling that led to the disappearance of the Neanderthals. Of course, natural disasters and disease are among the numerous possible causes as well. Combat is probably the least likely explanation. As BobW pointed to, combat is not the only way. Competitive exclusion and parasite/disease resistance would do nicely too. For all we know the neanderthals could have been particularly susceptible to a disease transferred by, as you say, procreative mingling. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
Remember that however pleasant it is now, for much of modern human existence Europe was a remote and impossible place for us to get to and to live in. That's how Americans view it now. On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 5:05 AM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: 2010/6/16 paul stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net: But it's politically correct to assume that the nasty and violent humans caused the demise of the gentle and peace-loving Neanderthals. I don't think it's a matter of political correctness, but of people retaining a belief that was current in the scientific community for a long time (Man the Hunter) and was used to explain this. The imagery was so powerful (see 2001 A Space Odyssey, for example) that the last 40-50 years of research has not entirely removed it from the popular imagination. [...] As BobW pointed to, combat is not the only way. Competitive exclusion and parasite/disease resistance would do nicely too. For all we know the neanderthals could have been particularly susceptible to a disease transferred by, as you say, procreative mingling. it's also entirely possible that modern people had nothing at all to do with the extinction of the Neandertals. They may have been on their way out anyway, as a result of changes to the environment to which they could not adapt. At the same time, modern humans were able to exploit the changing environment, which is why we entered Europe at the same time as the Neandertals were expiring. One event did not necessarily cause the other - they may have had the same cause. Remember that however pleasant it is now, for much of modern human existence Europe was a remote and impossible place for us to get to and to live in. Depending on how the evidence is interpreted, we may have got to Australia as much 30,000 years before we got to Europe! Yet the Neandertals thrived in those conditions. It should not be much of a surprise to find that when conditions had softened enough for us, the Neandertals came under environmental stress. I am on holiday in the Cevennes next week and the week following - I hope to be able to visit some sites where Cro-Magnon finds were made in the 19th C, including la caverne de l'homme mort, where some 50 individuals were found, most of whom had been trepanned. They were probably early Pentax shooters. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
My understanding is that Neandertals were built like The Incredible Hulk. I think of early humans as built like Mr Bean. Now who do you think is gonna win in that fight? You're going to need something more than violence to promote modern humans. Regards, Bob S. On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 4:51 AM, AlunFoto alunf...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/6/16 Bob W p...@web-options.com: it's also entirely possible that modern people had nothing at all to do with the extinction of the Neandertals. They may have been on their way out anyway, as a result of changes to the environment to which they could not adapt. At the same time, modern humans were able to exploit the changing environment, which is why we entered Europe at the same time as the Neandertals were expiring. One event did not necessarily cause the other - they may have had the same cause. If climate alone caused the 'thals' demise, modern man could have been expanding into vacant territory. However if the new studies correctly indicate interbreeding, it means that there was at least a partial overlap in the distribution ranges as the 'thals declined. Climate change could very well have skewed the competitive balance, but whoever has the edge would fast-track the other to exclusion. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 10:33 AM, Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com wrote: My understanding is that Neandertals were built like The Incredible Hulk. I do my best. Dave I think of early humans as built like Mr Bean. Now who do you think is gonna win in that fight? You're going to need something more than violence to promote modern humans. Regards, Bob S. On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 4:51 AM, AlunFoto alunf...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/6/16 Bob W p...@web-options.com: it's also entirely possible that modern people had nothing at all to do with the extinction of the Neandertals. They may have been on their way out anyway, as a result of changes to the environment to which they could not adapt. At the same time, modern humans were able to exploit the changing environment, which is why we entered Europe at the same time as the Neandertals were expiring. One event did not necessarily cause the other - they may have had the same cause. If climate alone caused the 'thals' demise, modern man could have been expanding into vacant territory. However if the new studies correctly indicate interbreeding, it means that there was at least a partial overlap in the distribution ranges as the 'thals declined. Climate change could very well have skewed the competitive balance, but whoever has the edge would fast-track the other to exclusion. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
-- From: Bob Sullivan Subject: Re: The State of The List My understanding is that Neandertals were built like The Incredible Hulk. I think of early humans as built like Mr Bean. Now who do you think is gonna win in that fight? You're going to need something more than violence to promote modern humans. Apparently we have better brains. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On 6/16/2010 5:24 AM, Bob W wrote:
Don't see where political correctness came into this equation...
Nobody knows if humans were more or less nasty than neanderthals.
What we know is that modern humans go homicidal over mere tribal
differences, have an excellent record of eliminating competitors on
their level in the food chain, and possible predators as well. To
assume that they somehow did away with the neanderthals in a...
hmmm... less than including way... is just a pragmatic approach. If
that's politics for you, well then it must be the oldest political
direction in human history... :-)
I think you just described the Great Apes in general.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eubDSQrFako
Actually, responding to my own post, it's not just bonobos that are the
exception among the great apes. Violence as a whole is the exception among
great apes. Gorillas, bonobos, orang utans are not violent and they do not
go around eliminating competitors. Among common chimpanzees there have been
'wars' between groups, but even these appear to be the exception.
I don't think there is much evidence to support the idea that modern humans
are genetically determined to be homicidal maniacs eliminating all
competition - I think that the type of violence described above is a result
of cultural factors arising from the adoption of agriculture as our
principle way of making a living.
Bob
A bit of an oversimplification. The Gorilla equivalent to a war between
Chimp troops, since the primary grouping is a Silverback (male) and a
group of females, is a duel, which can be to the death.
The Bonobo seems to be exclusively a herbivore, which might have
something to do with it's non aggressive behavior, or might not I
couldn't say. The division between Common Chimp and Bonobo, puts me in
mind of another similar division, in fiction, from H. G. Well, The Time
Machine. (Yes I know another simplification). The difference being
that neither Chimps nor Bonobos can swim so never the twain shall meet.
Orangutans are solitary creatures, it's hard to have a war when you
don't organize into groups.
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Re: The State of The List
On 6/16/2010 5:51 AM, AlunFoto wrote:
2010/6/16 Bob Wp...@web-options.com:
it's also entirely possible that modern people had nothing at all to do with
the extinction of the Neandertals. They may have been on their way out
anyway, as a result of changes to the environment to which they could not
adapt. At the same time, modern humans were able to exploit the changing
environment, which is why we entered Europe at the same time as the
Neandertals were expiring. One event did not necessarily cause the other -
they may have had the same cause.
If climate alone caused the 'thals' demise, modern man could have been
expanding into vacant territory. However if the new studies correctly
indicate interbreeding, it means that there was at least a partial
overlap in the distribution ranges as the 'thals declined.
Climate change could very well have skewed the competitive balance,
but whoever has the edge would fast-track the other to exclusion.
If you out reproduce your rivals you win, especially if you assimilate
their survivors. It doesn't require active conflict.
--
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interface subtly weird.\par
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Re: The State of The List
I'm sorry, I thought you were the incredible bulk...
(Yea I know but /somebody/ had to say it),
On 6/16/2010 10:42 AM, David J Brooks wrote:
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 10:33 AM, Bob Sullivanrf.sulli...@gmail.com wrote:
My understanding is that Neandertals were built like The Incredible Hulk.
I do my best.
Dave
I think of early humans as built like Mr Bean.
Now who do you think is gonna win in that fight?
You're going to need something more than violence to promote modern humans.
Regards, Bob S.
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 4:51 AM, AlunFotoalunf...@gmail.com wrote:
2010/6/16 Bob Wp...@web-options.com:
it's also entirely possible that modern people had nothing at all to do with
the extinction of the Neandertals. They may have been on their way out
anyway, as a result of changes to the environment to which they could not
adapt. At the same time, modern humans were able to exploit the changing
environment, which is why we entered Europe at the same time as the
Neandertals were expiring. One event did not necessarily cause the other -
they may have had the same cause.
If climate alone caused the 'thals' demise, modern man could have been
expanding into vacant territory. However if the new studies correctly
indicate interbreeding, it means that there was at least a partial
overlap in the distribution ranges as the 'thals declined.
Climate change could very well have skewed the competitive balance,
but whoever has the edge would fast-track the other to exclusion.
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Re: The State of The List
From: AlunFoto 2010/6/16 paul stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net: But it's politically correct to assume that the nasty and violent humans caused the demise of the gentle and peace-loving Neanderthals. Don't see where political correctness came into this equation... Nobody knows if humans were more or less nasty than neanderthals. There was some news recently that Neanderthals and modern humans may have been inter-fertile, and that the Neanderthals may not have gone extinct as such, but were just subsumed into the mix. Love conquers all so they say. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On 6/14/2010 10:45 PM, Bob W wrote: The Neanderthal Man was apparently not so düssel as originally thought! At any rate, his average brain:body size ratio exceeded ours, I believe. Bob Liquid spillage prevented only by laziness to get one... *keeps giggling* Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On 6/14/2010 11:17 PM, eckinator wrote: 2010/6/14 Bob Wp...@web-options.com: The Neanderthal Man was apparently not so düssel as originally thought! At any rate, his average brain:body size ratio exceeded ours, I believe. yes but that was an earlier revision with particular weakness in floating point... size doesn't always matter... The not so dussel (giggle) men managed to live on this dirt ball for 200,000 years, or at least this is what popular science TV program zombified me into believing of. Our kind (racial differences taken out of the account) is yet to beat that record. Faster CPU may result in faster burn out, you know... And if you overclock it enough you get the likes of B. Fischer... Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On 6/15/10, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: At least now we can see who's opinion it is, I'd rather consensus from a debating multitude than that from a conclave. all the consensus in the world won't change a single fact - it's the democratic fallacy. Mike Padlipsky's line, sometime in the debates over OSI's claims to be a standard: You are constitutionally entitled to a personal opinion. You are not constitutionally entitled to a professional opinion. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/15 Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com: The not so dussel (giggle) men managed to live on this dirt ball for 200,000 years, or at least this is what popular science TV program zombified me into believing of. Our kind (racial differences taken out of the account) is yet to beat that record. It's been a while since I got any zombification updates. But wasn't it mentioned earlier in this thread that outside Africa, most humans have genes traceable to neanderthals? If modern humans interbred with the neanderthals it makes them just another race. Which means that with racial differences taken _into_ account, modern humans assimilated/diluted/destroyed the neanderthal culture. Whether it was by force or peacful coexistence can be up to anyone's fancy, but considering modern man's actions throughout the few thousand years we have of documented history (insofar as you can trust the storytelling of sources like the bible, greek poets, etc.), I'd lean towards force. Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On 6/15/2010 10:30 AM, AlunFoto wrote: But wasn't it mentioned earlier in this thread that outside Africa, most humans have genes traceable to neanderthals? If modern humans interbred with the neanderthals it makes them just another race. Which means that with racial differences taken _into_ account, modern humans assimilated/diluted/destroyed the neanderthal culture. I am not entirely certain that genetic connections between neanderthals and cro-magnons have been established as a scientific fact... Perhaps it happened recently and I missed the news. Or perhaps it was yet another news-item is you know what I mean. Whether it was by force or peacful coexistence can be up to anyone's fancy, but considering modern man's actions throughout the few thousand years we have of documented history (insofar as you can trust the storytelling of sources like the bible, greek poets, etc.), I'd lean towards force. The resources were scarce back then... Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/15 Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com: The not so dussel (giggle) men managed to live on this dirt ball for 200,000 years, or at least this is what popular science TV program zombified me into believing of. Our kind (racial differences taken out of the account) is yet to beat that record. Faster CPU may result in faster burn out, you know... And if you overclock it enough you get the likes of B. Fischer... Indeed. Who ever said more power means better use? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On Jun 15, 2010, at 6:53 AM, steve harley wrote: however a mailman list is a bit of a special case -- i don't know how its resource needs compare to websites; mailman is built into a lot of cheap hosting plans, but PDML's traffic may (or may not) be more than one should expect such a plan to handle My last VPS plan had Mailman as part of the Plesk interface. But it was a cheap plan and the provider limited the server to sending 1,000 emails per day to prevent spam. I think a specialist Mailman host would be better for a list of this size as you'd otherwise spend that $600 a year on paracetamol having to administer the server AND the list. I mentioned Google Groups the other day but I don't know if that would be a workable alternative. I moved a small mailing list to it recently after I changed hosting providers and couldn't be bothered with email setups. Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:27 AM, Bob W wrote: Okay then. Kwacha. Free karma points to whoever knows where that coin is used without looking it up. :-) is it related to the pengo? I didn't know Antarctica had a currency. Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/15 Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com: I am not entirely certain that genetic connections between neanderthals and cro-magnons have been established as a scientific fact... Perhaps it happened recently and I missed the news. Or perhaps it was yet another news-item is you know what I mean. FWIW, http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100512/full/465148a.html -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/15 Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com: I am not entirely certain that genetic connections between neanderthals and cro-magnons have been established as a scientific fact... Perhaps it happened recently and I missed the news. Or perhaps it was yet another news-item is you know what I mean. There are indeed some who claim specific people to be completely neanderthal :-) -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
Bob Sullivan wrote: Keith, Wikipedia - The free encyclopedia that anyone can edit. It's a consensus encyclopedia built from public contributions. With enough effort, they might even become factual... Or maybe God really is the flying spagetti monster or that other guy. :-) Regards, Bob S. Hah, hah... Thanks. You’re right, of course. keith On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Keith Whaley keit...@dslextreme.com wrote: Bob Sullivan wrote: Bob W Ecke, You know Wikipedia is just story telling, not authoritatively factual. Regards. Bob S. Source? keith -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: The State of The List
Ethiopia? Just because Bob W loves the place John in Brisbane On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:27 AM, Bob W wrote: Okay then. Kwacha. Free karma points to whoever knows where that coin is used without looking it up. :-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On 6/15/2010 1:18 PM, AlunFoto wrote: 2010/6/15 Boris Libermanbori...@gmail.com: I am not entirely certain that genetic connections between neanderthals and cro-magnons have been established as a scientific fact... Perhaps it happened recently and I missed the news. Or perhaps it was yet another news-item is you know what I mean. FWIW, http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100512/full/465148a.html Ok then. If I throw a tantrum I'd say it was the old neanderthal inside me... ;-) And when I catch that tantrum back, I'd say it was that Nutty Norwegian who taught me that ;-). Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
The State of The List
2010/6/15 AlunFoto alunf...@gmail.com: FWIW, http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100512/full/465148a.html I can't help it but that guy looks like he's been taking hits from some prehistoric bong... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: The State of The List
that would be the birr. I know where the kwacha is used though. Ethiopia? Just because Bob W loves the place John in Brisbane On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:27 AM, Bob W wrote: Okay then. Kwacha. Free karma points to whoever knows where that coin is used without looking it up. :-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: The State of The List
It's been a while since I got any zombification updates. But wasn't it mentioned earlier in this thread that outside Africa, most humans have genes traceable to neanderthals? those results are very new. The professional interpretations seem to swing between no interbreeding and some, but not enough to be significant to us. I personally wouldn't jump to any conclusions until I've read something other than a press report about it, and also read some counter-arguments. If modern humans interbred with the neanderthals it makes them just another race. Not necessarily. In the first place 'race' is not a term that is used in the scientific community - it cannot be defined or delineated (even 'species' is problematic, I believe). In the second place, some mammal hybrids are fertile even though the parents may be considered to be from different species (problematic as that may be). Which means that with racial differences taken _into_ account, modern humans assimilated/diluted/destroyed the neanderthal culture. even if there were such a thing as race, I don't see how you can infer this from the available evidence. Whether it was by force or peacful coexistence can be up to anyone's fancy, but considering modern man's actions throughout the few thousand years we have of documented history (insofar as you can trust the storytelling of sources like the bible, greek poets, etc.), I'd lean towards force. I wouldn't bet on it. Documented history refers only to agricultural societies. Before agriculture people lived different types of lives altogether and while there may have been some competition between modern humans and Neandertals for resources there seems to be no indication that they were _actively_ competing or that the competition alone was responsible for the demise of the Neandertals. It's possible that an advantage of a fraction of a percentage could, over thousands of years, have a pushed an already-marginal population beyond the point where they could sustain a viable population, but neither they nor modern humans need necessarily have been in any judgmental sense responsible for this, any more than grey squirrels can be held responsible for the decline of reds in the UK. The very late entry of modern humans onto the European stage can be explained by climate change, which would also and independently affect the ability of the more specialised Neandertals to make a decent living. There are many other hypotheses which may explain the extinction of the Neandertals without modern humans as a contributory factory- the jury is still out on this question, and probably will be for a long time. Best to keep an eye on the literature and enjoy the unfolding story as an interested amateur, than to try and construct theories! Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/15 Bob W p...@web-options.com: There are many other hypotheses which may explain the extinction of the Neandertals without modern humans as a contributory factory- the jury is still out on this question, and probably will be for a long time. Best to keep an eye on the literature and enjoy the unfolding story as an interested amateur, than to try and construct theories! Sure. :-) Note that I didn't introduce the race term to this conversation; I just took up on it. As to the squirrels you mentioned, they are not to blame in a moral sense of the word. But surely competitive exclusion can be said to have a causing species? -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: The State of The List
[...] As to the squirrels you mentioned, they are not to blame in a moral sense of the word. But surely competitive exclusion can be said to have a causing species? yes, of course, but it's not necessarily the only factor or even a particularly significant one. It's a fascinating subject and no doubt the pendulum will continue to swing - which I suppose is why it remains fascinating. Remember Ardrey and Man the Hunter? B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 5:18 AM, eckinator eckina...@gmail.com wrote: Indeed. Who ever said more power means better use? Tim Allen. Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On Jun 15, 2010, at 1:42 PM, Bob W wrote: It's been a while since I got any zombification updates. But wasn't it mentioned earlier in this thread that outside Africa, most humans have genes traceable to neanderthals? those results are very new. The professional interpretations seem to swing between no interbreeding and some, but not enough to be significant to us. I personally wouldn't jump to any conclusions until I've read something other than a press report about it, and also read some counter-arguments. If modern humans interbred with the neanderthals it makes them just another race. Not necessarily. In the first place 'race' is not a term that is used in the scientific community - it cannot be defined or delineated (even 'species' is problematic, I believe). In the second place, some mammal hybrids are fertile even though the parents may be considered to be from different species (problematic as that may be). Which means that with racial differences taken _into_ account, modern humans assimilated/diluted/destroyed the neanderthal culture. even if there were such a thing as race, I don't see how you can infer this from the available evidence. Whether it was by force or peacful coexistence can be up to anyone's fancy, but considering modern man's actions throughout the few thousand years we have of documented history (insofar as you can trust the storytelling of sources like the bible, greek poets, etc.), I'd lean towards force. I wouldn't bet on it. Documented history refers only to agricultural societies. Before agriculture people lived different types of lives altogether and while there may have been some competition between modern humans and Neandertals for resources there seems to be no indication that they were _actively_ competing or that the competition alone was responsible for the demise of the Neandertals. But it's politically correct to assume that the nasty and violent humans caused the demise of the gentle and peace-loving Neanderthals. Based on some of what I've read about recent Neanderthal discoveries, it may well have been assimilation and procreative mingling that led to the disappearance of the Neanderthals. Of course, natural disasters and disease are among the numerous possible causes as well. Combat is probably the least likely explanation. Paul It's possible that an advantage of a fraction of a percentage could, over thousands of years, have a pushed an already-marginal population beyond the point where they could sustain a viable population, but neither they nor modern humans need necessarily have been in any judgmental sense responsible for this, any more than grey squirrels can be held responsible for the decline of reds in the UK. The very late entry of modern humans onto the European stage can be explained by climate change, which would also and independently affect the ability of the more specialised Neandertals to make a decent living. There are many other hypotheses which may explain the extinction of the Neandertals without modern humans as a contributory factory- the jury is still out on this question, and probably will be for a long time. Best to keep an eye on the literature and enjoy the unfolding story as an interested amateur, than to try and construct theories! Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On 13/6/10, Stan Halpin, discombobulated, unleashed: Christine is right about Boris being right about Bill being right. A sister and two right brothers. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
Yeah, right... ;-) On 6/14/2010 9:49 AM, Cotty wrote: On 13/6/10, Stan Halpin, discombobulated, unleashed: Christine is right about Boris being right about Bill being right. A sister and two right brothers. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On Jun 12, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Paul Sorenson wrote: So...how many of us can kick in 20USD and see how far it goes? I did, just before reading this message. -p On 6/12/2010 5:04 PM, Doug Brewer wrote: Paul Sorenson wrote: Doug - What kind of operating costs are we looking at? There should be no reason that we can't all contribute either through a Donate button or directly to you in order to keep the costs off your back. At least until you get back on your feet and can foot the bill entirely by yourself again. * :-D ;-) :-) * -p I'll try to answer here. The cost for hosting runs $50/month, and I'm $200 in the red as of today, so basically just the hosting runs $600 annually. I re-upped the domain name last December for a couple of years, so it's good until Dec 2011. This has all come out of my pocket, with some donations earlier this year and a gift from the list four or five years ago, both of which were greatly appreciated. Again, it must be emphasized that I have been more than happy to do this, as well as the maintenance over the years. I've just added a donation button to the pdml.net site. It looks like shite right now, and I'm hoping to re-write the page to look better some time this weekend; keep in mind that I am single-parenting this week while Mrs. List Guy visits her grandmother in Colorado, so time is hard to come by. Thanks for your inquiries and whatnot, both on and off list. Doug No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2932 - Release Date: 06/11/10 13:35:00 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/14 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Paul, I'm behind what you are saying 100%. Ecke or Dario, if you have cheaper ideas then lay them out for us. But don't forget you have 2-400 pdml subscribers, a digest, and lots of message traffic (200+ messages a day). In fact I am totally in agreement with what Paul said. Doug is doing a wonderful job, the provider seems to have good uptime and reliability and the list does what it is supposed to do. That is what matters. If the provider is charging more than others would probably do my only concern lies with the fact that Doug is chipping in out of his own pocket even while between hopefully gainful employments. Plus he sits down every night to write the digest =) My idea would be in this case - because this has happened to me numerous times and is common practice - to check if the provider has lowered prices lately; mine does so every couple of months to about once a year and they don't notify you or invoice less, instead they just let /you/ overpay until /you/ notice their scam. And on their hotline they tell you outright that they have to make a profit somehow... What I am saying is that I find the price rather too high and saying so out of concern for Doug, no more no less. The only plan to save money would be to move the same setup to a cheaper provider, really. Everything else would either take things away from Doug or reduce reliability or increase his or someone's workload, responsibility, electricity bill etc... I run a mail server here and I could probably operate or archive the list or provide Doug with some ressources but I too want him to remain relevant!!! Cheers Ecke -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: The State of The List
Few of us are spending on film anymore so we have all of that money piling up from the unrealized expense. Mark! Yen! Drachma! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Mark! Yen! Drachma! Euro! While we still have it... ;-) Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
Another forum I belong to (not photography ;-) has a voluntary subscription rate of $30 per year through PayPal. It automatically charges me every May unless I stop it. This takes care of memory issues. Some (and I emphasize some) might be willing to so something similar for the PDML. 2010/6/14 Ralf R. Radermacher fotor...@gmx.de: Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Mark! Yen! Drachma! Euro! While we still have it... ;-) Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/14 Ralf R. Radermacher fotor...@gmx.de: Mark! Yen! Drachma! Euro! While we still have it... ;-) Just wait until Africa introduces a common currency... the coins will be fuzzy round the edges @;) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 2:49 AM, Cotty cotty...@mac.com wrote: On 13/6/10, Stan Halpin, discombobulated, unleashed: Christine is right about Boris being right about Bill being right. A sister and two right brothers. Things are starting to fly now. Dave -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/14 David J Brooks pentko...@gmail.com: On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 2:49 AM, Cotty cotty...@mac.com wrote: On 13/6/10, Stan Halpin, discombobulated, unleashed: Christine is right about Boris being right about Bill being right. A sister and two right brothers. Things are starting to fly now. Must be the cormorant influence. Doug, you may want to rename the list archive to The C Files. You can tell from the number of donations that most of us want to believe. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/14 Ralf R. Radermacher fotor...@gmx.de: Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Mark! Yen! Drachma! Euro! While we still have it... ;-) Okay then. Kwacha. Free karma points to whoever knows where that coin is used without looking it up. :-) -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/14 eckinator eckina...@gmail.com: 2010/6/14 Ralf R. Radermacher fotor...@gmx.de: Mark! Yen! Drachma! Euro! While we still have it... ;-) Just wait until Africa introduces a common currency... the coins will be fuzzy round the edges @;) Not to mention all the curly bits. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/14 AlunFoto alunf...@gmail.com: Kwacha. Free karma points to whoever knows where that coin is used without looking it up. :-) It sounds like something that will eventually be sold in a soy macchiato variety, perhaps even with a dash of caramel syrup and the smallest size will be called grande or perhaps tall... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On 6/14/2010 10:23 AM, David J Brooks wrote:
On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 2:49 AM, Cottycotty...@mac.com wrote:
On 13/6/10, Stan Halpin, discombobulated, unleashed:
Christine is right about Boris being right about Bill being right.
A sister and two right brothers.
Things are starting to fly now.
What? Slings? Arrows?
Dave
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RE: The State of The List
Mark! Yen! Drachma! Euro! While we still have it... ;-) Just wait until Africa introduces a common currency... the coins will be fuzzy round the edges @;) re-introduces. The Maria-Theresa thaler was widespread in Africa for centuries. You can still see them used as pendants; I have one which I bought in Ethiopia in 1998, a lovely thing it is. The word 'thaler' evolved into the word 'dollar'. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: The State of The List
Mark! Yen! Drachma! Euro! While we still have it... ;-) Okay then. Kwacha. Free karma points to whoever knows where that coin is used without looking it up. :-) is it related to the pengo? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/14 Bob W p...@web-options.com: re-introduces. The Maria-Theresa thaler was widespread in Africa for centuries. You can still see them used as pendants; I have one which I bought in Ethiopia in 1998, a lovely thing it is. The word 'thaler' evolved into the word 'dollar'. yes but it was originally issued by Austria. Even if it was Australia I doubt that that would count towards the Afro =P -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/14 Bob W p...@web-options.com: re-introduces. The Maria-Theresa thaler was widespread in Africa for centuries. You can still see them used as pendants; I have one which I bought in Ethiopia in 1998, a lovely thing it is. The word 'thaler' evolved into the word 'dollar'. Way back when, a monetary unit in Norway was riks-daler. Apparently stemming from the same thaler. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/14 AlunFoto alunf...@gmail.com: 2010/6/14 Bob W p...@web-options.com: re-introduces. The Maria-Theresa thaler was widespread in Africa for centuries. You can still see them used as pendants; I have one which I bought in Ethiopia in 1998, a lovely thing it is. The word 'thaler' evolved into the word 'dollar'. Way back when, a monetary unit in Norway was riks-daler. Apparently stemming from the same thaler. Which of course would be Emmenthaler =) Serious though the Thalers got their name from the first ever one, formally known as one Guldengroschen, i.e. a copper piece representing one tenth of the value of one guilder, i.e. a standard gold coin of the time, which was produced in a mint in the city of Joachimsthal, hence being called the Joachimsthaler Guldengroschen (there were others in other regions and of different provenience) or for short the Joachimsthaler and later simply Thaler. The name is really a rather profane abbreviation but it certainly has made its way. Now if Switzerland would just update their game and introduce the Emmendollar... Cheers Ecke -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: The State of The List
re-introduces. The Maria-Theresa thaler was widespread in Africa for centuries. You can still see them used as pendants; I have one which I bought in Ethiopia in 1998, a lovely thing it is. The word 'thaler' evolved into the word 'dollar'. Way back when, a monetary unit in Norway was riks-daler. Apparently stemming from the same thaler. Which of course would be Emmenthaler =) Serious though the Thalers got their name from the first ever one, formally known as one Guldengroschen, i.e. a copper piece representing one tenth of the value of one guilder, i.e. a standard gold coin of the time, which was produced in a mint in the city of Joachimsthal, hence being called the Joachimsthaler Guldengroschen (there were others in other regions and of different provenience) or for short the Joachimsthaler and later simply Thaler. The name is really a rather profane abbreviation but it certainly has made its way. Now if Switzerland would just update their game and introduce the Emmendollar... Cheers Ecke And we should start referring to Neanderdollar Man. There is an interesting (if you like this sort of thing) circularity in the word Neanderthal. Neanderthal is the Neander Valley. 'Neander' is an invented word made up by a chap called Neumann which in English is New Man. He Greekified it into Neo (new) Andros (man) - Neander - after a fashion of the 15th/16th century... And isn't it entirely appropriate that it was in his valley that we found the New Man - the Neanderthaler! Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On 2010-06-13 14:20 , Dario Bonazza wrote: This said, I have the feeling that $600.00 a year is way too much for a domain and a host (I spend around $35 a year for mine) and... what else? Is there a costly software license and/or other features to pay? Perhaps I miss something essential here. What do the IT folks have to say? the cheap rates people get for personal sites are for shared servers which have low resource allocations, little support, occasional downtime ... this works fine for the typical small website, but fails utterly once such a site gets a high-traffic day, or needs major support $50/month is not an uncommon price for a somewhat busy virtual private server (VPS) which is a step above shared hosting and needed for good performance on a database-backed website with moderate traffic; another thing one might get for that kind of money is great support and/or very high uptime however a mailman list is a bit of a special case -- i don't know how its resource needs compare to websites; mailman is built into a lot of cheap hosting plans, but PDML's traffic may (or may not) be more than one should expect such a plan to handle also beware the cost of oversolving the problem -- the time and effort to pursue lower cost hosting could easily outweigh any savings -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
Done On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Paul Sorenson allarou...@earthlink.net wrote: So...how many of us can kick in 20USD and see how far it goes? -p On 6/12/2010 5:04 PM, Doug Brewer wrote: Paul Sorenson wrote: Doug - What kind of operating costs are we looking at? There should be no reason that we can't all contribute either through a Donate button or directly to you in order to keep the costs off your back. At least until you get back on your feet and can foot the bill entirely by yourself again. * :-D ;-) :-) * -p I'll try to answer here. The cost for hosting runs $50/month, and I'm $200 in the red as of today, so basically just the hosting runs $600 annually. I re-upped the domain name last December for a couple of years, so it's good until Dec 2011. This has all come out of my pocket, with some donations earlier this year and a gift from the list four or five years ago, both of which were greatly appreciated. Again, it must be emphasized that I have been more than happy to do this, as well as the maintenance over the years. I've just added a donation button to the pdml.net site. It looks like shite right now, and I'm hoping to re-write the page to look better some time this weekend; keep in mind that I am single-parenting this week while Mrs. List Guy visits her grandmother in Colorado, so time is hard to come by. Thanks for your inquiries and whatnot, both on and off list. Doug No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2932 - Release Date: 06/11/10 13:35:00 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- http://www.flickr.com/photos/ferand/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/14 Bob W p...@web-options.com: And we should start referring to Neanderdollar Man. Also affectionately referred to as Bucky Newman, then? Cheers Ecke -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Neanderthal is the Neander Valley. 'Neander' is an invented word made up by a chap called Neumann which in English is New Man. Oh really? Silly old me had always thought that the Neandertal, which is (quite appropriately) located near Dusseldorf, had its name from the river Neander flowing through it. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany Blog : http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com Audio : http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf Web : http://www.fotoralf.de -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/14 Ralf R. Radermacher fotor...@gmx.de: Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Neanderthal is the Neander Valley. 'Neander' is an invented word made up by a chap called Neumann which in English is New Man. Oh really? Silly old me had always thought that the Neandertal, which is (quite appropriately) located near Dusseldorf, had its name from the river Neander flowing through it. Bob is apparently right: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neandertal#Namen I do wonder though if Joachim was the first ever Neumann to call himself Neander Cheers Ecke -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: The State of The List
Neanderthal is the Neander Valley. 'Neander' is an invented word made up by a chap called Neumann which in English is New Man. Oh really? Silly old me had always thought that the Neandertal, which is (quite appropriately) located near Dusseldorf, had its name from the river Neander flowing through it. Ralf The Neander meanders through it... Neumann must have given his name to the river, then. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/14 Bob W p...@web-options.com: Silly old me had always thought that the Neandertal, which is (quite appropriately) located near Dusseldorf, had its name from the river Neander flowing through it. The Neander meanders through it... Neumann must have given his name to the river, then. The river was called the Düssel before both valley and river were neanderized... having lived in Cologne for a long time myself I can of course see how Ralf would go into denial about something being called Düssel ]=) Kölle alaaf Ecke -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: The State of The List
Silly old me had always thought that the Neandertal, which is (quite appropriately) located near Dusseldorf, had its name from the river Neander flowing through it. The Neander meanders through it... Neumann must have given his name to the river, then. The river was called the Düssel before both valley and river were neanderized... having lived in Cologne for a long time myself I can of course see how Ralf would go into denial about something being called Düssel ]=) Kölle alaaf Ecke The Neanderthal Man was apparently not so düssel as originally thought! At any rate, his average brain:body size ratio exceeded ours, I believe. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/14 Bob W p...@web-options.com: The Neanderthal Man was apparently not so düssel as originally thought! At any rate, his average brain:body size ratio exceeded ours, I believe. yes but that was an earlier revision with particular weakness in floating point... size doesn't always matter... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On 2010-06-14 13:45 , Bob W wrote: The Neanderthal Man was apparently not so düssel as originally thought! At any rate, his average brain:body size ratio exceeded ours, I believe. not to mention that there's evidence of a significant amount of interbreeding Any human whose ancestral group developed outside Africa has a little Neanderthal in them – between 1 and 4 per cent of their genome http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18869-neanderthal-genome-reveals-interbreeding-with-humans.html -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/14 steve harley p...@paper-ape.com: not to mention that there's evidence of a significant amount of interbreeding Any human whose ancestral group developed outside Africa has a little Neanderthal in them – between 1 and 4 per cent of their genome http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18869-neanderthal-genome-reveals-interbreeding-with-humans.html There is in fact a famous quote from one of Joachim Neander's boating trips to the valley: Paddle faster, I hear banjos -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
AlunFoto wrote: 2010/6/14 Ralf R. Radermacher fotor...@gmx.de: Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Mark! Yen! Drachma! Euro! While we still have it... ;-) Okay then. Kwacha. Free karma points to whoever knows where that coin is used without looking it up. :-) Africa. More than one place if I remember correctly - rare, these days. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
Bob W Ecke, You know Wikipedia is just story telling, not authoritatively factual. Regards. Bob S. On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 2:35 PM, eckinator eckina...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/6/14 Ralf R. Radermacher fotor...@gmx.de: Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Neanderthal is the Neander Valley. 'Neander' is an invented word made up by a chap called Neumann which in English is New Man. Oh really? Silly old me had always thought that the Neandertal, which is (quite appropriately) located near Dusseldorf, had its name from the river Neander flowing through it. Bob is apparently right: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neandertal#Namen I do wonder though if Joachim was the first ever Neumann to call himself Neander Cheers Ecke -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: The State of The List
My information about it didn't come from wikipedia, it comes from years and years of reading popular accounts of the evolution of humans by the scientists involved. And from studying languages and linguistics. Bob Bob W Ecke, You know Wikipedia is just story telling, not authoritatively factual. Regards. Bob S. On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 2:35 PM, eckinator eckina...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/6/14 Ralf R. Radermacher fotor...@gmx.de: Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Neanderthal is the Neander Valley. 'Neander' is an invented word made up by a chap called Neumann which in English is New Man. Oh really? Silly old me had always thought that the Neandertal, which is (quite appropriately) located near Dusseldorf, had its name from the river Neander flowing through it. Bob is apparently right: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neandertal#Namen I do wonder though if Joachim was the first ever Neumann to call himself Neander Cheers Ecke -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/15 Bob W p...@web-options.com: My information about it didn't come from wikipedia, it comes from years and years of reading popular accounts of the evolution of humans by the scientists involved. And from studying languages and linguistics. Funny how even that sort of stuff precipitates into wikipedia... :-) Eventually... :-) Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: The State of The List
2010/6/15 Bob W p...@web-options.com: My information about it didn't come from wikipedia, it comes from years and years of reading popular accounts of the evolution of humans by the scientists involved. And from studying languages and linguistics. Funny how even that sort of stuff precipitates into wikipedia... :-) Eventually... :-) Yes. If I'd had my wits about me when I was 9 and started on that track I'd had waited until Wikipedia was invented and read it all in 5 minutes. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
Bob Sullivan wrote: Bob W Ecke, You know Wikipedia is just story telling, not authoritatively factual. Regards. Bob S. Source? keith -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
Keith, Wikipedia - The free encyclopedia that anyone can edit. It's a consensus encyclopedia built from public contributions. With enough effort, they might even become factual... Or maybe God really is the flying spagetti monster or that other guy. :-) Regards, Bob S. On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Keith Whaley keit...@dslextreme.com wrote: Bob Sullivan wrote: Bob W Ecke, You know Wikipedia is just story telling, not authoritatively factual. Regards. Bob S. Source? keith -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
As long as it's not about a controversial figure or subject it's usually
pretty good.
On 6/14/2010 5:54 PM, Bob Sullivan wrote:
Bob W Ecke,
You know Wikipedia is just story telling, not authoritatively factual.
Regards. Bob S.
On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 2:35 PM, eckinatoreckina...@gmail.com wrote:
2010/6/14 Ralf R. Radermacherfotor...@gmx.de:
Bob Wp...@web-options.com wrote:
Neanderthal is the Neander Valley. 'Neander' is an
invented word made up by a chap called Neumann which in English is New Man.
Oh really?
Silly old me had always thought that the Neandertal, which
is (quite appropriately) located near Dusseldorf, had its name from the
river Neander flowing through it.
Bob is apparently right: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neandertal#Namen
I do wonder though if Joachim was the first ever Neumann to call himself Neander
Cheers
Ecke
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Re: The State of The List
On 15/06/2010, Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com wrote: Keith, Wikipedia - The free encyclopedia that anyone can edit. It's a consensus encyclopedia built from public contributions. With enough effort, they might even become factual... Or maybe God really is the flying spagetti monster or that other guy. :-) At least now we can see who's opinion it is, I'd rather consensus from a debating multitude than that from a conclave. -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: The State of The List
Keith, Wikipedia - The free encyclopedia that anyone can edit. It's a consensus encyclopedia built from public contributions. With enough effort, they might even become factual... Or maybe God really is the flying spagetti monster or that other guy. :-) At least now we can see who's opinion it is, I'd rather consensus from a debating multitude than that from a conclave. all the consensus in the world won't change a single fact - it's the democratic fallacy. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
The state of the list.
Done and very happily so. Just go here and press the Donate button: http://www.pdml.net/ Malcolm -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
On Jun 13, 2010, at 3:59 AM, Doug Brewer wrote: I've considered a number of scenarios, from a community print sale to raise funds, to just handing it over to someone who can afford to keep it going, to joining the 21st century and going to a web-based thing, but that would still have to take into consideration the bandwidth costs, which are the bulk of the out-go. Have you thought about Google Groups? I run a small mailing list which I recently shifted to Google... not sure how suitable it would be for something the size of PDML though. But it's an option you could look into. Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The state of the list.
On 13/06/2010 5:46 PM, Malcolm Smith wrote: Done and very happily so. Just go here and press the Donate button: http://www.pdml.net/ Malcolm Ditto for me too. Regards, Pete Mac in western Sydney -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
Doug, if you put that Paypal button on the PDML page, I'll contribute. You have been working hard to keep the list alive and at the very least we should support your effort by sharing the costs. I'm sorry to know that you have been going through difficult times. I am also in dire straits, not unemployed but almost, but I hope that things will be better for you, me and other members of the list in the near future. Carlos -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
I have just seen the Donate button on the page. Done. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
Doug Brewer wrote: I love The List, though, and I want to remain somewhat relevant. So I'm going to add, assuming I get permission from our hosting company, a paypal donate button to the pdml.net home page. What a bargain. Feel free to use any excess for personal needs; no notice required. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
Ditto mike wilson escribió: Doug Brewer wrote: I love The List, though, and I want to remain somewhat relevant. So I'm going to add, assuming I get permission from our hosting company, a paypal donate button to the pdml.net home page. What a bargain. Feel free to use any excess for personal needs; no notice required. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List: Donation (can't post to the list; Gaetan Beauchamp)PDML Digest, Vol 50, Issue 124
Hello, I have donate to the list maintener Mr. Brewer. I encourage everyone to do so. Gaetan Beauchamp Le 10-06-13 à 03:46, pdml-requ...@pdml.net a écrit : Message: 1 Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 02:22:16 + From: drd1...@gmail.com To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: The State of The List Message-ID: 304865383-1276395737-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-14464640...@bda110.bisx.prod.on.blackberry Content-Type: text/plain jeez, Doug, how stupid of us/me not to realize that this had to cost money. Don't eBay the K20D. That's too much irony even for an academic. ;-) Give us some time to raise funding. -Original Message- From: Doug Brewer d...@alphoto.com Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 18:04:13 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail Listpdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: The State of The List Paul Sorenson wrote: Doug - What kind of operating costs are we looking at? There should be no reason that we can't all contribute either through a Donate button or directly to you in order to keep the costs off your back. At least until you get back on your feet and can foot the bill entirely by yourself again. * :-D ;-) :-) * -p I'll try to answer here. The cost for hosting runs $50/month, and I'm $200 in the red as of today, so basically just the hosting runs $600 annually. I re-upped the domain name last December for a couple of years, so it's good until Dec 2011. This has all come out of my pocket, with some donations earlier this year and a gift from the list four or five years ago, both of which were greatly appreciated. Again, it must be emphasized that I have been more than happy to do this, as well as the maintenance over the years. I've just added a donation button to the pdml.net site. It looks like shite right now, and I'm hoping to re-write the page to look better some time this weekend; keep in mind that I am single-parenting this week while Mrs. List Guy visits her grandmother in Colorado, so time is hard to come by. Thanks for your inquiries and whatnot, both on and off list. Doug -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List: Donation (can't post to the list; Gaetan Beauchamp)PDML Digest, Vol 50, Issue 124
Gaëtan Beauchamp wrote: Hello, I have donate to the list maintener Mr. Brewer. I encourage everyone to do so. Gaetan Beauchamp As a side issue, maybe posters would like to take more care with trimming posts of unneeded excrescences. Especially as I (guilty as anyone) am paying, now. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
2010/6/13 Carlos R carlos_r...@teleline.es: Ditto Ditto, too. What's Beth got to do with it, anyway? Cheers Ecke PS: My thanks to Doug for doing this! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
mike wilson wrote: Doug Brewer wrote: I love The List, though, and I want to remain somewhat relevant. So I'm going to add, assuming I get permission from our hosting company, a paypal donate button to the pdml.net home page. What a bargain. Feel free to use any excess for personal needs; no notice required. well, I did spot a nice late-'70's 500SL for sale when I was driving to GFM... Seriously, within minutes of posting my last reply to this thread, Baby Girl, propelled by The Boy, collided with an immovable object, necessitating an eventual evening in the ER that stretched into the way dark, so sorry I haven't replied sooner. That was followed up by my debit card being declined when I tried to buy us dinner in a drive-through; news comes in this morning that someone had managed to type in my wife's debit card number, created a new card, and went on a shopping spree that wiped out our regular account. Fraud services picked up on it, though, so all the money is being credited back tomorrow. It was an interesting day. Baby Girl is OK, though-- just a good bone bruise-- and so is the PDML account. You have heeded the call admirably, and my K20 is safe for the moment. Thank you all very much. I wish I could thank you all individually, but there's a really nice 500SL calling me... Just kidding. Thanks again -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: The State of The List
[...] Seriously, within minutes of posting my last reply to this thread, Baby Girl, propelled by The Boy, collided with an immovable object, necessitating an eventual evening in the ER that stretched into the way dark, so sorry I haven't replied sooner. That was followed up by my debit card being declined when I tried to buy us dinner in a drive-through; news comes in this morning that someone had managed to type in my wife's debit card number, created a new card, and went on a shopping spree that wiped out our regular account. Fraud services picked up on it, though, so all the money is being credited back tomorrow. It was an interesting day. A lot of people seem to have been struck by The Curse Of The PDML recently, but what comes around goes around (or is it the other way around?) - it's a PUNishment from the Gods of Mount Pentax (KA) for some collective sin, I think. Baby Girl is OK, though-- just a good bone bruise-- and so is the PDML Good to hear. account. You have heeded the call admirably, and my K20 is safe for the moment. Thank you all very much. I wish I could thank you all individually, but there's a really nice 500SL calling me... you can drive around to all our houses and thank us in person if you like...;o) Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
Just donated money and glad to hear your disasters were resolved--sort of. Glad the K20 is safe. Cheers, Christine - Original Message - From: Doug Brewer d...@alphoto.com To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2010 10:08 AM Subject: Re: The State of The List mike wilson wrote: Doug Brewer wrote: I love The List, though, and I want to remain somewhat relevant. So I'm going to add, assuming I get permission from our hosting company, a paypal donate button to the pdml.net home page. What a bargain. Feel free to use any excess for personal needs; no notice required. well, I did spot a nice late-'70's 500SL for sale when I was driving to GFM... Seriously, within minutes of posting my last reply to this thread, Baby Girl, propelled by The Boy, collided with an immovable object, necessitating an eventual evening in the ER that stretched into the way dark, so sorry I haven't replied sooner. That was followed up by my debit card being declined when I tried to buy us dinner in a drive-through; news comes in this morning that someone had managed to type in my wife's debit card number, created a new card, and went on a shopping spree that wiped out our regular account. Fraud services picked up on it, though, so all the money is being credited back tomorrow. It was an interesting day. Baby Girl is OK, though-- just a good bone bruise-- and so is the PDML account. You have heeded the call admirably, and my K20 is safe for the moment. Thank you all very much. I wish I could thank you all individually, but there's a really nice 500SL calling me... Just kidding. Thanks again -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
-- From: Doug Brewer Subject: Re: The State of The List Baby Girl is OK, though-- just a good bone bruise-- and so is the PDML account. You have heeded the call admirably, and my K20 is safe for the moment. Thank you all very much. I wish I could thank you all individually, but there's a really nice 500SL calling me... Just kidding. Don't ever hesitate to make this a regular thing. You shouldn't have to foot the bill for us louts. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: The State of The List
Bill's right. On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 6:45 PM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote: Don't ever hesitate to make this a regular thing. You shouldn't have to foot the bill for us louts. William Robb -- Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
