RE: Today's quiz
Title: RE: [PEN-L:34602] Today's quiz Goering? Goebbels? (BTW, what's the source?) Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine -Original Message- From: Forstater, Mathew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 8:06 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [PEN-L:34602] Today's quiz Who said: Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger. ?
Re: Today's quiz
goehring On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 10:06:22AM -0600, Forstater, Mathew wrote: Who said: Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger. ? -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Re: Today's quiz
Goering is right. Is it that well-known or is it going around the net? Or are you guys really, really smart?
RE: RE: Re: Today's quiz
Title: RE: [PEN-L:34607] RE: Re: Today's quiz I really wonder if it's really Goering, since a few years ago there was a spurious (and similar) quote from Hitler floating about. (My copy of THEY DIDN'T SAY THAT, which debunks famous quotes is at home.) Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine -Original Message- From: Forstater, Mathew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 8:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [PEN-L:34607] RE: Re: Today's quiz Goering is right. Is it that well-known or is it going around the net? Or are you guys really, really smart?
RE: RE: RE: Re: Today's quiz
Title: RE: [PEN-L:34607] RE: Re: Today's quiz One of the Urban legends sites says it is actually true. -Original Message- From: Devine, James [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 10:43 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: [PEN-L:34609] RE: RE: Re: Today's quiz I really wonder if it's really Goering, since a few years ago there was a spurious (and similar) quote from Hitler floating about. (My copy of THEY DIDN'T SAY THAT, which debunks famous quotes is at home.) Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine -Original Message- From: Forstater, Mathew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 8:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [PEN-L:34607] RE: Re: Today's quiz Goering is right. Is it that well-known or is it going around the net? Or are you guys really, really smart?
RE: Today's quiz
Jim wanted the source. Apparently it was from the Nuremburg trials, although a very similar statement is in In War. Since you guys think you are so hot, try this one: Now I am prowling through the backyard and I am hiding under the car and I've gotten out of everything I've gotten into so far and I eat when I am hungry and I travel alone.
Re: RE: Re: Today's quiz
Forstater, Mathew wrote: Goering is right. Is it that well-known or is it going around the net? Or are you guys really, really smart? it is going around the net. and independently, yes, we guys are really, really smart - which is why we spend our time debating formal logic rather than protesting on the streets! ;-) (running for cover), --ravi
Re: Re: RE: Re: Today's quiz
- Original Message - From: ravi [EMAIL PROTECTED] it is going around the net. and independently, yes, we guys are really, really smart - which is why we spend our time debating formal logic rather than protesting on the streets! ;-) (running for cover), --ravi Some of us do that too
Re: Re: Re: RE: Re: Today's quiz
Ian Murray wrote: - Original Message - From: ravi [EMAIL PROTECTED] it is going around the net. and independently, yes, we guys are really, really smart - which is why we spend our time debating formal logic rather than protesting on the streets! ;-) (running for cover), Some of us do that too i am sure you do - i was only kidding. no insult intended to you, jimD, or other participants. it was more of a self-referential thing (in keeping with the paradoxes we have been discussing!). i shall be going to my first big rally in this country this saturday - the anti-war one in NYC. TBS played born on the fourth of july last evening - a populist slap on the face for dubya. is the media sensing a shifting tide? or is TBS owned by ted turner who is rumoured to be more liberal than the rest? --ravi
Re: Re: Today's quiz
Origins: Another timely quote in the vein of the apocryphal Julius Caesar warning about political leaders who can all too easily send the citizenry marching eagerly off to war by manufacturing crises that purportedly threaten national security and making popular appeals to patriotism. In this case the sentiment expressed is even more disturbing because it comes not from a venerated figure of antiquity, but supposedly from a reviled twentieth-century figure associated with the most chilling example of genocide in human history: Hermann Goering, Nazi Reichsmarshall and Luftwaffe-Chief. We may be made somewhat uneasy by the idea that the head of a classic civilization recognized 2,000 years ago that the populace could be manipulated into sacrificing themselves in wars at the whims of their leaders, but we're outraged (and maybe even scared) at the thought of a fat Nazi fascist flunky's recognizing and telling us the same thing. The notable difference here is that although the Caesar quote is a latter-day fabrication, the words attributed to Hermann Goering are real. Goering was one of the highest-ranking Nazis who survived to be captured and put on trial for war crimes in the city of Nuremberg by the Allies after the end of World War II. He was found guilty on charges of "war crimes," "crimes against peace," and "crimes against humanity" by the Nuremberg tribunal and sentenced to death by hanging. The sentence could not be carried out, however, because Goering committed suicide with smuggled cyanide capsules hours before his execution, scheduled for 15 October 1946. The quote cited above does not appear in transcripts of the Nuremberg trials because although Goering spoke these words during the course of the proceedings, he did not offer them at his trial. His comments were made privately to Gustave Gilbert, a German-speaking intelligence officer and psychologist who was granted free access by the Allies to all the prisoners held in the Nuremberg jail. Gilbert kept a journal of his observations of the proceedings and his conversations with the prisoners, which he later published in the book Nuremberg Diary. The quote offered above was part of a conversation Gilbert held with a dejected Hermann Goering in his cell on the evening of 18 April 1946, as the trials were halted for a three-day Easter recess: Sweating in his cell in the evening, Goering was defensive and deflated and not very happy over the turn the trial was taking. He said that he had no control over the actions or the defense of the others, and that he had never been anti-Semitic himself, had not believed these atrocities, and that several Jews had offered to testify in his behalf. If [Hans] Frank [Governor-General of occupied Poland] had known about atrocities in 1943, he should have come to him and he would have tried to do something about it. He might not have had enough power to change things in 1943, but if somebody had come to him in 1941 or 1942 he could have forced a showdown. (I still did not have the desire at this point to tell him what [SS General Otto] Ohlendorf had said to this: that Goering had been written off as an effective "moderating" influence, because of his drug addiction and corruption.) I pointed out that with his "temperamental utterances," such as preferring the ki! lling of 200 Jews to the destruction of property, he had hardly set himself up as champion of minority rights. Goering protested that too much weight was being put on these temperamental utterances. Furthermore, he made it clear that he was not defending or glorifying Hitler. Later in the conversation, Gilbert recorded Goering's observations that the common people can always be manipulated into supporting and fighting wars by their political leaders: We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to his attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for leaders who bring them war and destruction. "Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship." "There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars." "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of
RE: Today's quiz
Title: RE: Today's quiz no insult taken. I am very upset that I won't be able to attend the demo, since I'm flying to New York (on a red-eye!) to see my father-in-law inducted into the Toy-makers' Hall of Fame (for inventing the yacket-yak teeth, among other things) and then flying home almost immediately. Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine -Original Message- From: ravi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 9:21 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [PEN-L:34617] Re: Re: Re: RE: Re: Today's quiz Ian Murray wrote: - Original Message - From: ravi [EMAIL PROTECTED] it is going around the net. and independently, yes, we guys are really, really smart - which is why we spend our time debating formal logic rather than protesting on the streets! ;-) (running for cover), Some of us do that too i am sure you do - i was only kidding. no insult intended to you, jimD, or other participants. it was more of a self-referential thing (in keeping with the paradoxes we have been discussing!). i shall be going to my first big rally in this country this saturday - the anti-war one in NYC. TBS played born on the fourth of july last evening - a populist slap on the face for dubya. is the media sensing a shifting tide? or is TBS owned by ted turner who is rumoured to be more liberal than the rest? --ravi
Re: RE: Today's quiz
no insult taken. I am very upset that I won't be able to attend the demo, since I'm flying to New York (on a red-eye!) to see my father-in-law inducted into the Toy-makers' Hall of Fame (for inventing the yacket-yak teeth, among other things) and then flying home almost immediately. jeepers, that's some pretty high-flying company your fatherinlaw is keeping: http://www.toy-tma.com/industry/halloffame/listing.htm
Re Today's Quiz - the source
Verified by VisaHermann Goering Claim: Hermann Goering proclaimed that although the people don't want war, they can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders. Status: True. Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2002] Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger. -- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials Origins: Another timely quote in the vein of the apocryphal Julius Caesar warning about political leaders who can all too easily send the citizenry marching eagerly off to war by manufacturing crises that purportedly threaten national security and making popular appeals to patriotism. In this case the sentiment expressed is even more disturbing because it comes not from a venerated figure of antiquity, but supposedly from a reviled twentieth-century figure associated with the most chilling example of genocide in human history: Hermann Goering, Nazi Reichsmarshall and Luftwaffe-Chief. We may be made somewhat uneasy by the idea that the head of a classic civilization recognized 2,000 years ago that the populace could be manipulated into sacrificing themselves in wars at the whims of their leaders, but we're outraged (and maybe even scared) at the thought of a fat Nazi fascist flunky's recognizing and telling us the same thing. The notable difference here is that although the Caesar quote is a latter-day fabrication, the words attributed to Hermann Goering are real. Goering was one of the highest-ranking Nazis who survived to be captured and put on trial for war crimes in the city of Nuremberg by the Allies after the end of World War II. He was found guilty on charges of war crimes, crimes against peace, and crimes against humanity by the Nuremberg tribunal and sentenced to death by hanging. The sentence could not be carried out, however, because Goering committed suicide with smuggled cyanide capsules hours before his execution, scheduled for 15 October 1946. The quote cited above does not appear in transcripts of the Nuremberg trials because although Goering spoke these words during the course of the proceedings, he did not offer them at his trial. His comments were made privately to Gustave Gilbert, a German-speaking intelligence officer and psychologist who was granted free access by the Allies to all the prisoners held in the Nuremberg jail. Gilbert kept a journal of his observations of the proceedings and his conversations with the prisoners, which he later published in the book Nuremberg Diary. The quote offered above was part of a conversation Gilbert held with a dejected Hermann Goering in his cell on the evening of 18 April 1946, as the trials were halted for a three-day Easter recess: Sweating in his cell in the evening, Goering was defensive and deflated and not very happy over the turn the trial was taking. He said that he had no control over the actions or the defense of the others, and that he had never been anti-Semitic himself, had not believed these atrocities, and that several Jews had offered to testify in his behalf. If [Hans] Frank [Governor-General of occupied Poland] had known about atrocities in 1943, he should have come to him and he would have tried to do something about it. He might not have had enough power to change things in 1943, but if somebody had come to him in 1941 or 1942 he could have forced a showdown. (I still did not have the desire at this point to tell him what [SS General Otto] Ohlendorf had said to this: that Goering had been written off as an effective moderating influence, because of his drug addiction and corruption.) I pointed out that with his temperamental utterances, such as preferring the killing of 200 Jews to the destruction of property, he had hardly set himself up as champion of minority rights. Goering protested that too much weight was being put on these temperamental utterances. Furthermore, he made it clear that he was not defending or glorifying Hitler. Later in the conversation, Gilbert recorded Goering's observations that the common people can always be manipulated into supporting and fighting wars by their political leaders: We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to his attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for leaders who bring them war and destruction. Why, of course, the people don't want war, Goering shrugged. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want
Re: RE: Today's quiz
Since you guys think you are so hot, try this one: Now I am prowling through the backyard and I am hiding under the car and I've gotten out of everything I've gotten into so far and I eat when I am hungry and I travel alone. Hint, everybody: notice how a lot of the phrase rhymes, sort of like song lyrics. Virtuously, Gil
Re: Re: RE: Today's quiz
Virtue by Ani DiFranco virtue is relative at best there's nothing worse than a sunset when you're driving due west and i'm afraid that my love is gonna come up short there is no there there i guess i'm scared cuz i want to have good news to ! report every time i come up for air now i'm cruising through a chromakey blue sky and i know that in an hour or three the sun is gonna be in my eyes and i know that sometimes all i can see is how i feel like the whole world is on the other side of a dirty windshield and i'm tryin to see through the gla! re yes i'm struggling just to see what's there the one person who really knows me best says i'm like a cat yeah the kind of cat that you just can't pick up and throw into your lap no, the kind that doesn't mind being held only wh! en its her idea yeah, the kind that feels what she decides to feel when she is good and ready to feel it and now i am prowling through the backyard and i am hiding under the car i have gotten out of everything i've gotten into so far i eat when I am hungry and i travel alone and just outside the glow of the house is where i feel most at home but in the window you sometimes appear and your music is faint in my ears Gil Skillman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since you guys thinkyou are so hot, try this one:"Now I am prowling through the backyard and I am hiding under the carand I've gotten out of everything I've gotten into so far and I eat whenI am hungry and I travel alone."Hint, everybody: notice how a lot of the phrase rhymes, sort of like song lyrics.Virtuously,GilDo you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
Re: RE: Today's quiz
At 12/02/03 10:41 -0600, Matthew wrote: Jim wanted the source. Apparently it was from the Nuremburg trials, although a very similar statement is in In War. Since you guys think you are so hot, try this one: Now I am prowling through the backyard and I am hiding under the car and I've gotten out of everything I've gotten into so far and I eat when I am hungry and I travel alone. You need to disable Google first for it to be any test of brilliance. Chris Burford
