Re: Re: Imperialist progressivism (was Re: Thatcher and nationalism)

2000-09-11 Thread JKSCHW

What does geography suggest that Alsace-Lorraine is part of, France or Germany? Or 
more to the point today, East Jerusalem? --jks

In a message dated Mon, 11 Sep 2000  1:43:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Brad DeLong 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 For what they are worth, my views on the Malvinas are very simple. Geography
alone would suggest that they are a part of Argentina, and I would recognise
Argentinian sovereignty.
Michael K.

On the one hand, trees and hills. On the other hand, people. On what 
theory of political justice can the first ever trump the second?


Brad DeLong

 




Re: Re: Imperialist progressivism (was Re: Thatcher and nationalism)

2000-09-09 Thread Nestor Miguel Gorojovsky

En relación a [PEN-L:1484] Re: Imperialist progressivism (was R, 
el 8 Sep 00, a las 9:16, Michael Perelman dijo:

 The debate on the Falklands/Malvinas is troubling.  I thought the 
 outcome meant that Thatcher triumphed politically, while the junta
 had to face political defeat, eventually.

The Junta, as a bunch of people, yes. The defeat was the ultimate 
victory of the interests they had fought for. Even in their defeat 
they paid a good service to their masters. The Argentina that emerged 
from the South Atlantic battles was a defeated country, and its 
ruling classes had lost every sense of national defence, on any 
ground. It was quite easy for imperialists to push the dagger of debt 
to the core of the country, force the destruction of the productive 
assets, destroy the state, and imbue a good deal of the population 
with a defeatist and cynical mood. That is why the flags of 
supermarkets are so symbolic here. They replaced the flag of the 
country. Remember _Robocop_, I insist. 

 
 As to rights, such matters are troubling.  I live on property stolen
 from the Mexicans who stole it from the Native Americans.  

To begin with, Mexicans are mostly of mixed racial stock, and the 
Spanish colony was a more complex thing than the Anglo American 
massive slaughter of Indians. Today's Mexicans (and with more reason 
those of the 19th. Century) are appropiate inheritors of both the 
Indian and the Iberian assets, cultural as well as material. And, as 
regards the war between Mexico and the United States in the late 
1840s, Mexico arrived at an agreement, however unjust, and signed a 
treaty. This was explained by the very Mexican government when 
imperialist speakers tried to raise the same argument against the 
rights of Argentina over the Malvinas. We have never surrendered our 
rights (Menem put us at the border of the abyss, but not even he 
dared to leap). We are still, technically and (more important) 
spiritually at war with England. One of the few good results of the 
war was that today, almost nobody in Argentina still believes (as 
many believed during most of the 20th. Century) that England was a 
civilized and reasonable patron.

While I
 recognize past injustices, I would not be happy to see either group
 reclaim their land.  Africa still suffers enormously from the problems
 caused by imperialist borders, but how could you rectify the past
 mistakes today? 

I send you to my above: this is not the same problem as in Africa. 
The Malvinas were seized by force, and we have not (and will never) 
admit to it. Though we Argentinians are probably the most Extreme 
West on earth (a French essayist defined Latin America as the Extreme 
West, in what I consider a very sharp fit of  insight), we are, on 
this issue, as patient as a Chinese. We shall wait and when the 
moment comes, we shall be able to recover our occupied territories. 
On the other hand, in the current state of indefension that Argentina 
has been left after the 1982 war (a state of affairs that has been 
consciously generated by the same high commands that lost the war!) 
the solution passes through the Latino Americanization of the 
conflict, which connects with our basic and essential problem: the 
construction of the Latin American nation that was the idea of the 
generation of the Independence, and of --Leon Trotsky!

A hug,


Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Re: Imperialist progressivism (was Re: Thatcher and nationalism)

2000-09-08 Thread Nestor Miguel Gorojovsky

En relación a [PEN-L:1459] Re: Imperialist progressivism (was R, 
el 8 Sep 00, a las 4:46, Brad De Long dijo:

 
 
 So Galtieri's strategy would have worked: the domestic opposition on
 the left would have forgotten his crimes and thrown their support
 behind his regime--if only he had won his war, and so distracted giddy
 minds with foreign quarrels.

The imperialist mind is strong. When the issue is that of socialist 
revolution to win an anticolonial war he brings the fate of that 
small individual, Galtieri -[long digression here] whose hands were 
by the way, blood stained but less blood stained than the hands of 
those (included many colleagues of our economist in California) who 
opposed the war, and, for example, continued to pay the Foreign Debt 
to England during the confrontation [end of long digression]-, as if 
it mattered a dime. The only thing that Brad DeLong is interested in, 
in fact, is a personal vendetta with a despicable rogue, not the 
opening of a vast battlefield for socialism and revolution.

Progressive imperialism, not imperialist progressivism. The adjective 
was misplaced.

Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Imperialist progressivism (was Re: Thatcher and nationalism)

2000-09-08 Thread Nestor Miguel Gorojovsky

Dear Michael Kearney,

I apologize for my harshness on you. It is evident that you are 
interested in discussion, not in deploying your wisdom on me as Brad 
does. So that excuse me if, for the time being, I cannot answer to 
your posting (by the way, I am afraid that we are getting too far 
away from the main subject on PEN-L, what does our moderator think?). 
If you want, I can answer you later.

So that you were 14 in 1982? Well, then there are a lot of things 
that I need to explain to you. I was much older, 30 to be precise, 
and I already had a long history of socialist and revolutionary 
struggle behind me by that moment. And it was precisely due to that 
history that I knew that the reasons why Galtieri was deciding the 
war (which later on proved not to be mere opportunism) were 
unimportant. 

You say on your letter that supporting Argentina was supporting 
Galtieri. That is wrong. Supporting Galtieri was supporting Argentina 
--against everything that Galtieri stood for!! Such is history in a 
semicolonial country, dear Michael

More later.

A friendly hug from an apologizing

Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky
[EMAIL PROTECTED]