Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

[henry]

Nice.

- HH

>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?
> Local Time: August 13, 2017 10:48 PM
> UTC Time: August 14, 2017 2:48 AM
> From: eliot.mira...@gmail.com
> To: Frank Berger Software , Pharo Development 
> List 
>
> Hi Frank,
>
> On Aug 12, 2017, at 1:24 PM, Frank Berger Software 
>  wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> the available documentation on Orca looks brilliant and the source, 
>> Hasso-Plattner-Institut in Potsdam, has an excellent reputation. It looks 
>> all very professional.
>>
>> I am therefore most suprised that I cannot find any tracks of usage of Orca, 
>> neither here, nor elsewhere on the net, and not even any serious discussions.
>>
>> Does anybody here have practical experience with Orca?
>> Critics?
>> Recommendations?
>
> Craig Latta has done some strong work integrating Squeak and Pharo with the 
> browser using a bridge derived from Bert Freudenberg's SqueakJS. Craig's work 
> allows one to use Pharo running on the standard Cog VM, client side, to 
> render to the browser, receive events from the browser, and manipulate the 
> DOM.
>
> You could contact him to find out if his work is relevant to you.  He isn't 
> comfortable discussing it on the Pharo lists himself.
>
>> My goal is to use it for a real-life business application rather than the 
>> ST2JS, which would be the second alternative. All of my server software is 
>> written in Smalltalk anyway.
>>
>> Thank you in advance for any comment.
>>
>> Frank

Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

[Eliot Miranda]

Hi Frank,


> On Aug 12, 2017, at 1:24 PM, Frank Berger Software 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello, 
> 
> the available documentation on Orca looks brilliant and the source, 
> Hasso-Plattner-Institut in Potsdam, has an excellent reputation. It looks all 
> very professional. 
> 
> I am therefore most suprised that I cannot find any tracks of usage of Orca, 
> neither here, nor elsewhere on the net, and not even any serious discussions. 
> 
> Does anybody here have practical experience with Orca? 
> Critics? 
> Recommendations? 

Craig Latta has done some strong work integrating Squeak and Pharo with the 
browser using a bridge derived from Bert Freudenberg's SqueakJS. Craig's work 
allows one to use Pharo running on the standard Cog VM, client side, to render 
to the browser, receive events from the browser, and manipulate the DOM. 

You could contact him to find out if his work is relevant to you.  He isn't 
comfortable discussing it on the Pharo lists himself.

> 
> My goal is to use it for a real-life business application rather than the 
> ST2JS, which would be the second alternative. All of my server software is 
> written in Smalltalk anyway. 
> 
> Thank you in advance for any comment. 
> 
> Frank 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

[Frank-B]

Stephan


> Perhaps you might want to explain to me the return on investment of the
> Orca documentation then? Zero users, zero return on investment. 

What are you talking about?!

a) The external documentation of Orca is brilliant. I have not yet had time
to look into the internal comments. So your statement us wrong in this
respect.
b) I have no clue how many users Orca has. Only politicians and journalists
are accepted to talk about things that they haven't got any clue of. I am
neither of both.
c) This is an university. Their purpose in life is to teach - and really
also to research, but that has mostly been forgotten.
d) The unique, wise and old German language, that we both speak, has a
unqiue word for it: "Wissenschaft" but they mostly do neiher of both: no or
little "Wissen" (knowledge) and no "schafft" (create). 

It seems to me that Orca is a great and rare exception to thus rule. read
danisch.de to learn more.


> I feel annoyed if you talk in absolutes like that, because I know that
> there are lots of situations where creating documentation is a waste of
> effort. 

a) If someone "feels annoyed" by statements and experiences of somebody
else, this is only and exclusively the problem of the person who claims to
"feel annoyed" - and in most cases a replacement for missing arguments and,
even far worse, an attempt to suppress the freedom of speech. Why don't you
ask your psychiatrist for help (yes, that was nasty, but it fitted in)?
b) To every rule, there may be some exception. Here, they are not worth a
discussion, in my opinion.


> And I have also been bitten by lack of documentation. 

So you should rather agree wtih me! Why don't you?


> And I have even been in a situation where both happened at the same time,
> where a lot of effort was put in creating the wrong kind of documentation.
> Oh, and I even wrote a bit of documentation myself. 

Never heard of the 80:20 rule?


> even wrote a bit of documentation myself

Great! My congratulations. It's hard to suppress the irony in my brain!


> Investing means making decisions. Fully documented non-working code has no
> value. Working code that no-one can use neither. 

Perhaps you ask for the cause(s)?
Lots of people can't distinguish between cause and consequences. Perhaps
this was the case when doc was missing? I don't know the cases you
experienced. And I don't know any similar cases from my past, because ALL
that was developed under my leadership was extremely well documented.


> Your current communication is manipulative: you try to put yourself in a
> dominant position by using absolutes, saying you feel sorry for me, and
> bragging about your experience. That annoys me. If you want to convince
> me, use arguments. 

1) Fisherman's Friends has advertised over years at least in German (I do
not know about other languages) with a phrase that has become a regular
proverb in German: "Sind sie zu stark - bist du zu schwach" - Are they
[here: my argument] too strong, you are too weak".

So if you feel "manipulated" by someone stating his experiences from >35
years in software development, pardon, but that's only your personal
problem, not mine!

2) The same applies to what you call "dominant". All the women that I have
been affiliated closer with, did like and appreciated very much my very
"care-full" (in the original sense of the word) but in situations, which
require this, still somewhat dominant attitude. The word has always been my
sword!

3) Finally:

> If you want to convince me, use arguments. 

I have made my points very clear in this and the neighboring thread. Please
just read it and try to understand (but I honestly doubt you want to).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication
Of please don't come up with this lousy CIA organization that is full of
lies, distortion of facts and suppression of truth (especially in history).
This is the worst part of "Lügenpresse" (even more the German version than
the English one). 

I wrote here before: Truth is the new "hate crime". We are approching times
of suppression that we Germans had twice before both by Socialists (same
today) and behind both were the same people that want to silence us today
again. I shall never surrender to this censorship and I detest eveybody who
does!

Habe die Ehre (if you know what Bavarians really mean with this salutation).

Frank



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Re: [Pharo-dev] eventual crashes pharo vm

[henry]

Re-adding the list in case others were interested.

- HH

>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] eventual crashes pharo vm
> Local Time: August 13, 2017 3:59 PM
> UTC Time: August 13, 2017 7:59 PM
> From: he...@callistohouse.club
> To: Stephane Ducasse 
>
> Stef, please see version 4 and the test in RefIdentityTest.
>
> - HH
>
>>  Original Message 
>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] eventual crashes pharo vm
>> Local Time: August 13, 2017 3:09 PM
>> UTC Time: August 13, 2017 7:09 PM
>> From: stepharo.s...@gmail.com
>> To: henry 
>>
>> Does he do it systematically?
>> I was checking if they extend blockcontext or others.
>> Because it would be really nice.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 9:06 PM, henry  wrote:
>>> Sorry, loading works fine. It segfaults on Ubuntu 32-bit when I run the test
>>> cases.
>>>
>>> - HH
>>>
>>>
>>>  Original Message 
>>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] eventual crashes pharo vm
>>> Local Time: August 13, 2017 2:58 PM
>>> UTC Time: August 13, 2017 6:58 PM
>>> From: stepharo.s...@gmail.com
>>> To: henry , Pharo Development List
>>> 
>>>
>>> We have some instability with the VM. Now can you tell us more how it "blew
>>> up"?
>>> I browsed the code and nothing special jump to my eyes.
>>>
>>> Stef
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 2:08 PM, henry  wrote:
 Hi all. I was testing with this eventual_test package and it blows up the
 pharo 6.1 vm. I"d welcome pointers

 http://www.squeaksource.com/TurquoiseTesting.html

 - HH


>>>
>>>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

[Stephan Eggermont]

Frank wrote:
> I feel sorry for you if you really have not yet understood that proper, early 
> and complete documentation and comments ARE ONLY an investment in the code, 
> because they save time and efforts later on, which always pay back - mostly 
> multiple times. 

Perhaps you might want to explain to me the return on investment of the Orca 
documentation then? Zero users, zero return on investment. 

I feel annoyed if you talk in absolutes like that, because I know that there 
are lots of situations where creating documentation is a waste of effort. And I 
have also been bitten by lack of documentation. And I have even been in a 
situation where both happened at the same time, where a lot of effort was put 
in creating the wrong kind of documentation. Oh, and I even wrote a bit of 
documentation myself. 

I have been thought many things at university, and there were many more things 
I had to learn in industry. And from open source projects, which have other 
things to teach. 

Investing means making decisions. Fully documented non-working code has no 
value. Working code that no-one can use neither. 

Your current communication is manipulative: you try to put yourself in a 
dominant position by using absolutes, saying you feel sorry for me, and 
bragging about your experience. That annoys me. If you want to convince me, use 
arguments. 

Stephan

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

[Frank-B]

Stephane,

thank you for your open words.

1) No I am NOT Frank Lesser and I will communicate this even clearer in a
personal email to you.

2) I had tried to make very clear that I see the Pharo project very positive
and my critics as being (at least intended) constructive.

3) I never care about my reputation. I only care about truth, facts and a
sincere appearance. Few people appreciate this attitude and I do not value
the others all too high or seriously. Unfortunately, we all have to live in
these timees of universal lies, deception and fraud. You probably know the
good German word "Lügenpresse" and my version is: "the current Zeitgeist
equals Lügenpresse".

4) I have some good, solid and unusual ideas how I could improve the Pharo
project considerably but for several reasons it is much to early to discuss
this. It will take another 2-3 years and I will definitely come back when
the time has come on my side.

5) As a contributor in the general Pharo sense I am currently neither
capable (working 85-100 hours a week on my projects) nor eligible and the
latter reason is not simple to explain, so I leave it at that for now.

Frank





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Re: [Pharo-dev] Github and Fogbugz integration

[Stephane Ducasse]

Tx guille!

On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Guillermo Polito  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> we just configured fogbugz and github integration as follows:
>
> http://help.fogcreek.com/8048/integration-with-git
>
> Quoting the instructions:
>
>
>1. Now you can refer to your FogBugz cases in your GitHub commits
>(just add “*case *” in the commit message)
>
>
> That will link your fogbugz issues to the commits on integration.
>
> Sadly, this just works for the integration of commits into the main
> branches, not pull requests. For pull request integration we will probably
> need a home made solution.
>
> Cheers,
> Guille et al
>
> --
>
>
>
> Guille Polito
>
>
> Research Engineer
>
> French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr*
> 
>
>
>
> *Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* 
>
> *Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13 <+33%206%2052%2070%2066%2013>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Vm-dev] vm crash when using rairedTo: with fractions

[Stephane Ducasse]

Tx eliot.


On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Eliot Miranda  wrote:
> Hi Andrei,
>
> On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 3:02 AM, Andrei Chis 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I was executing this code  '(2009/2000) ** (3958333/10)' with the
>> Pharo6.1 distribution and the vm crashed with she stack attached below.
>> Tried it on both mac and windows 10.
>> Seems that #raisedTo: has a special case for fractions that ends up
>> calling #nthRoot: like '2009 nthRoot: 10' leading to the crash.
>
>
> The plugin is now fixed; see VMMaker.oscog-eem.2262.  I'll generate code
> soon (am debugging something you're familiar with that takes several hours
> to run and don't want to generate sources while it's running).  But I'm glad
> you've found a better way!  This case creates 600k byte large integers and
> takes forever to run :-)
>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Andrei
>>
>>
>> 0xaddeac M LargePositiveInteger(Integer)>quo: 0x314093e8: a(n)
>> LargePositiveInteger
>> 0xaddec8 M LargePositiveInteger(LargeInteger)>quo: 0x314093e8: a(n)
>> LargePositiveInteger
>> 0xaddee8 M LargePositiveInteger(Integer)>// 0x314093e8: a(n)
>> LargePositiveInteger
>> 0xaddf04 M LargePositiveInteger(LargeInteger)>// 0x314093e8: a(n)
>> LargePositiveInteger
>> 0xaddf34 I LargePositiveInteger(Integer)>nthRootTruncated: 0x30cc8350:
>> a(n) LargePositiveInteger
>> 0xaddf5c I LargePositiveInteger(Integer)>nthRootRounded: 0x30cc8350: a(n)
>> LargePositiveInteger
>> 0xaddf88 I SmallInteger(Integer)>nthRoot: 0xfb3=2009
>> 0xaddfb4 I Fraction>nthRoot: 0x4f9a940: a(n) Fraction
>> 0xaddfd8 I Fraction(Number)>raisedTo: 0x4f9a940: a(n) Fraction
>> 0xaddffc I Fraction(Number)>** 0x4f9a940: a(n) Fraction
>> 0xade018 M UndefinedObject>DoIt 0x5fe5d00: a(n) UndefinedObject
>> 0xade048 I OpalCompiler>evaluate 0x4f9a998: a(n) OpalCompiler
>> 0xade074 I RubSmalltalkEditor>evaluate:andDo: 0x305e5878: a(n)
>> RubSmalltalkEditor
>> 0xade09c I RubSmalltalkEditor>highlightEvaluateAndDo: 0x305e5878: a(n)
>> RubSmalltalkEditor
>> 0xade0b8 M
>> GLMMorphicPharoScriptRenderer(GLMMorphicPharoCodeRenderer)>popupPrint
>> 0x3062fdc8: a(n) GLMMorphicPharoScri
>> enderer
>> 0xade0d8 I MorphicAlarm(MessageSend)>value 0x4f9ab20: a(n) MorphicAlarm
>> 0xade0f4 M MorphicAlarm>value: 0x4f9ab20: a(n) MorphicAlarm
>> 0xade114 M WorldState>triggerAlarmsBefore: 0x71bb5e0: a(n) WorldState
>> 0xade140 M WorldState>runLocalStepMethodsIn: 0x71bb5e0: a(n) WorldState
>> 0xade164 M WorldState>runStepMethodsIn: 0x71bb5e0: a(n) WorldState
>> 0xade180 M WorldMorph>runStepMethods 0x6ab7778: a(n) WorldMorph
>> 0xade198 M WorldState>doOneCycleNowFor: 0x71bb5e0: a(n) WorldState
>> 0xade1b4 M WorldState>doOneCycleFor: 0x71bb5e0: a(n) WorldState
>> 0xade1d0 M WorldMorph>doOneCycle 0x6ab7778: a(n) WorldMorph
>> 0xade1e8 M WorldMorph class>doOneCycle 0x6a9f960: a(n) WorldMorph class
>> 0xade200 M [] in MorphicUIManager>spawnNewProcess 0x2cc88718: a(n)
>> MorphicUIManager
>> 0xade220 I [] in BlockClosure>newProcess 0x2f178150: a(n) BlockClosure
>>
>
>
>
> --
> _,,,^..^,,,_
> best, Eliot

Re: [Pharo-dev] Add JSONSchemas to NeoJSON

[henry]

Thank you, Stef. I sent to him email, conditioned on his enjoying his vacations.

- HH

>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Add JSONSchemas to NeoJSON
> Local Time: August 13, 2017 2:53 PM
> UTC Time: August 13, 2017 6:53 PM
> From: stepharo.s...@gmail.com
> To: henry , Pharo Development List 
> 
>
> Hi henry
>
> Here is the email of sven Van Caekenberghe 
>
> He is probably on vacation else he would have replied.
> This is great if you can extend neoJSON it is a nice and important
> piece of software.
>
> Stef
>
> On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 10:04 PM, henry  wrote:
>> Is Sven still working on NeoJSON? I want to help expand it to use
>> JSONSchemas.
>>
>> https://spacetelescope.github.io/understanding-json-schema/
>>
>> I was looking at ASN1Module in Cryptography...
>>
>> - HH

Re: [Pharo-dev] eventual crashes pharo vm

[Stephane Ducasse]

We have some instability with the VM. Now can you tell us more how it "blew up"?
I browsed the code and nothing special jump to my eyes.

Stef

On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 2:08 PM, henry  wrote:
> Hi all. I was testing with this eventual_test package and it blows up the
> pharo 6.1 vm. I'd welcome pointers
>
> http://www.squeaksource.com/TurquoiseTesting.html
>
> - HH
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Add JSONSchemas to NeoJSON

[Tudor Girba]

+1

Doru


> On Aug 13, 2017, at 8:53 PM, Stephane Ducasse  wrote:
> 
> Hi henry
> 
> Here is the email of sven Van Caekenberghe 
> 
> He is probably on vacation else he would have replied.
> This is great if you can extend neoJSON it is a nice and important
> piece of software.
> 
> Stef
> 
> On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 10:04 PM, henry  wrote:
>> Is Sven still working on NeoJSON? I want to help expand it to use
>> JSONSchemas.
>> 
>> https://spacetelescope.github.io/understanding-json-schema/
>> 
>> I was looking at ASN1Module in Cryptography...
>> 
>> - HH
> 

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

“The smaller and more pervasive the hardware becomes, the more physical the 
software gets."

Re: [Pharo-dev] Add JSONSchemas to NeoJSON

[Stephane Ducasse]

Hi henry

Here is the email of sven Van Caekenberghe 

He is probably on vacation else he would have replied.
This is great if you can extend neoJSON it is a nice and important
piece of software.

Stef

On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 10:04 PM, henry  wrote:
> Is Sven still working on NeoJSON? I want to help expand it to use
> JSONSchemas.
>
> https://spacetelescope.github.io/understanding-json-schema/
>
> I was looking at ASN1Module in Cryptography...
>
> - HH

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

[Stephane Ducasse]

Hi frank

I think that you are slowly but steadily destroying your aura in this
mailing-list, so be careful. I say that to help
you. Filter are easy to set.

We are all concerned that some of the solutions are not at the level
where they should be.
I'm sure that Noury like us all would love to have an engineer fully
paid and working fully on PharoJS.

Now you should consider that people in this community are
- building nice libraries (just look at the Pharo success stories - we
did not invent them)
- sharing their code and valuing it
- are concerned by documentation, speed, and robustness.

You see take Zinc, NeoJSON, NeoCSV they are all HIGH quality, with
nearly instant support from sven,
with EXCELLENT documentation, FAST and continuously maintained.
And for FREE.

So of course not all the solutions in Pharo are like that. But we are trying.

Now I do not know if you are the frank from lesser software I met in
the past but if you do
you may ask yourself what would be state of Pharo if you would have
participated and shared.
So far I never saw anything good or bad coming from this frank. And I
was always asking myself if
we would all work on closed code then a great system like Pharo would not exist.

But we do share and we will continue to improve Pharo with or without
you (remember U2 :)).
Now if you want to join you are welcome.

I can understand your frustration now the difference between you and
me is that I decided
not to be frustrated anymore and help building a better system.

Stef




Stef








On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 8:35 PM, Frank-B  wrote:
> Paul,
>
>
>> What would you be willing to pay for a professionally commented,
>> functioning, and documented PharoJS?
>
> Pardon, but don't you notice yourself how absurd this question is?
>
> If not - and I am afraid you don't, I tell you why:
> - there is NOWHERE any proper listing of what this mysterious piece of
> software does (the slides don't tell anything)
> - before giving a quote, I would have to anylyse the architectural approach
> - and compare it with alternatives - no info available (read the docs on
> Orca and you know hwat I mean)
> - and see who delivers under which conditions
> - and how well things are documented.
>
> Be assured, that I am well prepared to pay accordingly for a proper product
> that I can use, provided that I make the decition to delegate such essential
> work to some outsider.
>
> This technical subject is a CORE feature of almost all of my future
> products, plans, ideas etc and it is therefore vital to choose the best and
> most fitting system. If there is no alternative, I would - in case of need -
> develop it rather myself than depend on an (assumed for the moment) instable
> and amateurish library.
>
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686p4960738.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS fails at first attempt

[Frank-B]

Merci!




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Re: [Pharo-dev] Add JSONSchemas to NeoJSON

[henry]

Hello Esteban,

Do you have Sven's email? I would like to discuss with him. I am currently 
considering combining ASN1 Modules, Fuel substitution and NeoJSON encoding.  It 
is some work.

Regards,
- HH

>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Add JSONSchemas to NeoJSON
> Local Time: August 12, 2017 6:13 PM
> UTC Time: August 12, 2017 10:13 PM
> From: emaring...@gmail.com
> To: henry , Pharo Development List 
> 
>
> Sven is still the developer and maintaner of NeoJSON.
>
> It would be nice to have JSON Schemas in NeoJSON. You could abort the
> read of a stream if the schema is invalid, without
> having to build the whole object tree or to parse the whole stream.
>
> Regards!
>
> Esteban A. Maringolo
>
> 2017-08-12 17:04 GMT-03:00 henry :
>> Is Sven still working on NeoJSON? I want to help expand it to use
>> JSONSchemas.
>>
>> https://spacetelescope.github.io/understanding-json-schema/
>>
>> I was looking at ASN1Module in Cryptography...
>>
>> - HH

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

[Frank-B]

Stephane,

all available information is in these two postings further up here:
13 Aug, 2017; 6:18pm versus the end
13 Aug, 2017; 6:38pm

Frank



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Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS fails at first attempt

[Stephane Ducasse]

Hi frank

You can contact noury at bouraq...@gmail.com
Serge does not work on PharoJS. Noury and Dave are.

Stef

On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Frank-B  wrote:
> @Serge and @those who developed PharoJS
>
> My first attempt to play with PharoJS failed.
> See here: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686.html
>
> Actually, this is what I had expected, because it resembles (unfortunately)
> my general experience with Squeak/Pharo from several occaisional attempts to
> use them.
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4960689.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

[Frank-B]

Paul,


> What would you be willing to pay for a professionally commented,
> functioning, and documented PharoJS?

Pardon, but don't you notice yourself how absurd this question is?

If not - and I am afraid you don't, I tell you why:
- there is NOWHERE any proper listing of what this mysterious piece of
software does (the slides don't tell anything)
- before giving a quote, I would have to anylyse the architectural approach
- and compare it with alternatives - no info available (read the docs on
Orca and you know hwat I mean)
- and see who delivers under which conditions
- and how well things are documented.

Be assured, that I am well prepared to pay accordingly for a proper product
that I can use, provided that I make the decition to delegate such essential
work to some outsider.

This technical subject is a CORE feature of almost all of my future
products, plans, ideas etc and it is therefore vital to choose the best and
most fitting system. If there is no alternative, I would - in case of need -
develop it rather myself than depend on an (assumed for the moment) instable
and amateurish library.

Frank





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Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

[Stephane Ducasse]

Hi

Noury is still developing PharoJS. If you want to be productive you
should report
- what you did.
- what went wrong.
I will forward to Noury such information because he is not reading
Pharo mailing-list.

Stef


On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 4:46 PM, Frank-B  wrote:
> As recommended here:
> http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-td4960519.html
> by @Serge, I loaded the code and tried to run it.
>
> But, I almost tend to say "as usual", *it fails at first try*!
>
> I "did" the code in the Playground window but nothing happens, no code is
> written into the selected directories. When I do "inspect it", I get a
> window (see screenshots), which does not really tell me either, what has
> happened (due to my lack of Pharo knowledge).
>
> Despite my over 20 years of full-time Smalltalk development, I have NOT any
> experience with either Squeak nor Pharo and most of my attempts to use them
> were very frustrating.
>
> Also, I do not feel like trying around, if and because:
> - even the very first test fails immediately
> - there is no meaningful documentation available
> - the classes I looked at were all undocumented (for me, a 100% no-go, never
> ever acceptable)
>
> And then, of course, also the test cases fail, because there is nothing in
> the diretories, where some earlier output was expected.
>
> Pardon, but professionality and confidence causing systems look very
> different too me. I am writing this with sadness, because it is certainly
> not my first such experience in the Squeak/Pharo area.
>
> There are some very bright people engaged here, but for some reason many of
> them lack some important aspects to be called professionals.
>
> Just FYI: My very first application software, an "ERP" system, which I
> started developing more than 35 years ago in horrible Basic, is still
> feeding a company (not mine) with >25 people as their sole product and has a
> couple of hundred business users. Some of my former staff is still working
> there and they said, this is only possible because I did force them
> "dictatorially" to document / comment every single line of code. In the
> beginning, they hated me for that. Today they are very thanksful.
>
> P.S. I DO have a very fast horse, because this is what one needs when
> telling the truth - in these days when truth is the worst "hate crime".
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

[Frank-B]

Stephan,

nice ironies! My compliments for this!

I won't comment your attempts to justify the "I contribute for my ego",
which is published as a great Smalltalk system. I have made my point clear!

One comment on this:

> Your first message in this thread is excellent. 

I would expect most intelligent people to be interested in and gratefiul for
honest experience reports and comments on the work one has done, especially
when they come from a very experience collegues who has been in this
business twice as long or more as presumably the majority of people here.
Bur, or course, you are free (but not welcome with me) to have your own very
different opinion like the chicks often being wiser than the hen.

So let me comment this foolishness:

> Creating documentation takes time and effort. That needs to be balanced
> against other priorities. 

I feel sorry for you if you really have not yet understood that proper,
early and complete documentation and comments ARE ONLY an investment in the
code, because they save time and efforts later on, which always pay back -
mostly multiple times. 

With my >35 years in the software business and around 30 years in o-o
technologies it'd be a waste of time to disucss such statements with
somebody who unfortunately has not been tought such core wisdoms at
university. But to me this comes as no surprise, as almost all "teachers" in
the broader sense on universities - at least in Europa - have hardly any
practical experience themselves -  much like the surgeon who has never
performed an appendix operation but wants to teach student how to do it. 
And, of course, the duration of being in a business as such is no guarantee
for expertise but still it increases its probabilty enormously.

After all, you are all trying to point away from the essential questions: 

Why is Pharo giving it's name for an obviously (at first glance) lousy
implemetation where not even the prepared demo parts are runnig out of the
box? Is that ok for you?

And why are we discussing only "my impertinence" to point openly on bugs and
missing documentation!?!?

This is so absurd! 

Frank








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Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

[Tudor Girba]

Hi,

Truth has nothing to do with what our current exchange. In your email, you say 
"many of them [people] lack some important aspects to be called professionals.” 
You do not know these people, you do not know their motivations, constraints 
and goals. This means you are in no position to pass a judgement on these 
people, and as a consequence your remark can easily be regarded as offensive. 
Please also do not conflate this discussion in the political correctness 
debate. It only has to do with common sense.

As I mentioned, PharoJS is an external project. It is not Pharo and its state 
has no relation to Pharo at present time. We are still very happy that it 
exists though and that it is still being developed. If you do not want to 
consider working on or with it is perfectly fine and I was not trying to imply 
otherwise. However, please do keep in mind that you are on the mailing list 
pertaining the development of Pharo. If you are interested in Pharo form a user 
perspective, please refer to the dedicated mailing list: 
pharo-us...@lists.pharo.org.

Concerning Pharo, we do actually place a significant focus on creating 
documentation on several fronts. For example, there are books written, and 
others currently being written. We also have projects on making the tools more 
welcoming for displaying documentation closer to the code. And we do very much 
welcome improvements to comments inside the image. There actually are several 
people that contributed mostly comments and documentation in the image and that 
was a significant contribution. So, given that it was possible in other cases, 
the suggestion to contribute documentation is not at all out of place.

This being said, we do welcome you and I am happy you had a successful career. 
At the same time, I do happen to believe that form has a deep effect on people. 
We want this space to be kind, and I kindly ask you to respect that and to pay 
attention to the used language especially given that email is such a limited 
medium and that most people are not native English speakers.

Cheers,
Doru


> On Aug 13, 2017, at 6:18 PM, Frank-B  wrote:
> 
> Dear Tudor,
> 
> I had expected such answers and I feel sorry to have to waste time on
> defending the unwanted truth.
> 
> You should have noticed how positively I see these activities and how much I
> regret that my experiences were mostly negative. I would like to have
> contributed and I certainly would have a lot in my framework but I don't
> feel that this would be a fruitful ground here. I had given the reasons.
> 
> My impression always was that the majority of contributers here are very
> eager to create a real-word system that could be used for real applications.
> This is why I freely and openly wrote about my impressions and experiences.
> 
> If somebody says: "I program for fun and contribute for my ego" - that's
> absolutely fine with me. But my impressions did NOT reflect such an
> attitude.
> 
> 
> Tudor Girba-2 wrote
>> Hi Frank,
>> 
>> Please be more polite with people that contribute open software that you
>> have the option of actually playing with at no cost (other than time). 
> 
> The truth is never unpolite - but in these days of Yankee originated
> censorship that is euphemistically called "political correctness" most
> people also in Europe are infected by this madness, so that many people do
> not want to hear any bitter facts any more.
> 
> 
>> Saying that the people from around here lack skills is an unnecessary 
> 
> No that is a lie, I did not write that "they lack skills" nor anything
> alike. 
> 
> I made clear that most do not document and that  many often do not really
> finish their projects. That has nothing do with skills, rather with
> finishing a task properly or only by 85% or 90% - and that has unfortunately
> often been my impression in the Squeak/Pharo arena.
> 
> 
>> remark and I am sure you can write more positive messages. 
> 
> I will and I always do but only when justified. 
> 
> 
>> Beside creating a nicer atmosphere, being polite also pays off in the long
>> term as you tend to get better reaction and support from people.
> 
> Well, you really don't need to tell me. I have managed large projects with
> up to 30 developers so I really know how to motivate people and how to lead.
> Oh, all of my projects became products and most of them in time. But still
> and in total contrast to the general US attitude (see the current scandal at
> Google), I will always stick to the truth and I know that 95% of all people,
> whose boss I was, preferred this attitude.
> 
> 
>> Back to the original subject, PharoJS is an external project that is
>> kindly developed by people that want to explore a path that you actually
>> seem eager to try. I would suggest restarting the conversation with
>> describing the exact steps you undertook and explaining where the error is
>> (The screenshots you send do not seem to show any error) and ask for
>> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

[Paul DeBruicker]

Hi Frank,


I'd guess you anticipated this astute comment as well:

What would you be willing to pay for a professionally commented,
functioning, and documented PharoJS?  Maybe offer that amount to the
projects devs and see if they are willing to develop the system you want to
use.  Its hard to eat on internet forum complaints alone.


Good luck getting it sorted out


Paul



Frank-B wrote
> Andreas,
> 
> you are most likely right, although I do not really qualify as a judge,
> because I have little experience with the code on these platforms. But
> this has always been my impression, too.
> 
> On the other hand, I am sure that the average Smalltakers stands way above
> the average developer when it comes to intelligence, programming skills
> and a lot of other factors. This is another reason why so many developers
> don't really understand "o-o" and are mostly unable to abstract things
> and, as a consequence from this, are not really able to use Smalltalk
> "properly".
> 
> On the negative side is that most Smalltalkers work rather as "lonesome
> wolfs" and, at best, in very small teams and very very few work on
> standard products meant to be used by a large or very large number of
> end-users. That has mostly been my goal over the last 20 years.
> 
> Still, all of this is no excuse for violating the very first developer's
> commandment: "Thou shall document thy code" 

> 
> Mit herzlichen Grüßen
> Frank





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Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

[Stephan Eggermont]

Hi Frank,

It must be very frustrating to see so many possibly interesting projects that 
are so difficult to get started with, being it because of lack of development 
and migration to the latest versions, or because of lack of documentation. It 
is a feeling I, and no doubt a lot of other smalltalkers, share. 

Our open source community consist of people spending a lot of their time on 
Pharo. A few of them are paid to do so, some more make it their bachelor, 
master or PhD project, and for even more it is just a hobby or side project. 
They all have different objectives with their projects, and different 
constraints. 

To get good results with our community, effective communications is essential. 
That allows us to develop multiple projects in a way that creates synergy, and 
a coherent whole. 

I find a crucial element of effective communication is to build up a 
connection, so others are able to hear your message. Your first message in this 
thread is excellent. 

Telling people they are not professional, and do a bad job, without knowing 
about the context in which the code was produced, is unlikely to lead to 
effective communications. People who feel attacked are no longer open to your 
message, irrespective of the contents. 

Effective communications has also nothing to do with PC or 'truth', and 
especially not the absolute and blaming kind. Posing opinions as truths looks 
less than helpful to me. I find clearly separating facts, feelings, needs, and 
strategies to fulfill those needs more effective. 

Creating documentation takes time and effort. That needs to be balanced against 
other priorities. You might not like the priorities others set, but you are not 
paying (in money nor effort). Also, we can only start at the position we are 
now in, no matter how much we want to be somewhere else. 

This is open source, so please let us know where you want to contribute so we 
can help you getting started. 

Stephan

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

[Frank-B]

Andreas,

you are most likely right, although I do not really qualify as a judge,
because I have little experience with the code on these platforms. But this
has always been my impression, too.

On the other hand, I am sure that the average Smalltakers stands way above
the average developer when it comes to intelligence, programming skills and
a lot of other factors. This is another reason why so many developers don't
really understand "o-o" and are mostly unable to abstract things and, as a
consequence from this, are not really able to use Smalltalk "properly".

On the negative side is that most Smalltalkers work rather as "lonesome
wolfs" and, at best, in very small teams and very very few work on standard
products meant to be used by a large or very large number of end-users. That
has mostly been my goal over the last 20 years.

Still, all of this is no excuse for violating the very first developer's
commandment: "Thou shall document thy code" 

Mit herzlichen Grüßen
Frank




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Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

[Andreas Wacknitz]

Am 13.08.17 um 18:18 schrieb Frank-B:

Dear Tudor,

I had expected such answers and I feel sorry to have to waste time on
defending the unwanted truth.

You should have noticed how positively I see these activities and how much I
regret that my experiences were mostly negative. I would like to have
contributed and I certainly would have a lot in my framework but I don't
feel that this would be a fruitful ground here. I had given the reasons.

My impression always was that the majority of contributers here are very
eager to create a real-word system that could be used for real applications.
This is why I freely and openly wrote about my impressions and experiences.

If somebody says: "I program for fun and contribute for my ego" - that's
absolutely fine with me. But my impressions did NOT reflect such an
attitude.


Tudor Girba-2 wrote

Hi Frank,

Please be more polite with people that contribute open software that you
have the option of actually playing with at no cost (other than time).

The truth is never unpolite - but in these days of Yankee originated
censorship that is euphemistically called "political correctness" most
people also in Europe are infected by this madness, so that many people do
not want to hear any bitter facts any more.



Saying that the people from around here lack skills is an unnecessary

No that is a lie, I did not write that "they lack skills" nor anything
alike.

I made clear that most do not document and that  many often do not really
finish their projects. That has nothing do with skills, rather with
finishing a task properly or only by 85% or 90% - and that has unfortunately
often been my impression in the Squeak/Pharo arena.
IMO that is not special to the Squeak/Pharo community. When you look at 
sourceforge or github
you will find a lot abandoned, incomplete or undocumented projects. 
Maybe it's more prominent here
because this community is orders of magnitude smaller than others. When 
you google for a
solution you typically find a bunch of hits for mainstream languages. So 
you can choose between
several alternatives and thus have a high possibility to find something 
working for you,

especially when big companies like Google are involved.

Regards
Andreas

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try - addendum to the error

[Frank-B]

Tudor,

perhaps I was a little imprecise, therefore this clarification:

I just opened the PhariJsESUG19-08-22 image with the PharosJS code included
(and I did NOT load any code).

I did nothing to it except the mentioned "do it", which includes the
creation of two sub-dirs.

As one can see from the screenshots, the Pharo window looks just the same as
it is in the PharoJS image.

Greetings
Frank





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Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

[Frank-B]

Dear Tudor,

I had expected such answers and I feel sorry to have to waste time on
defending the unwanted truth.

You should have noticed how positively I see these activities and how much I
regret that my experiences were mostly negative. I would like to have
contributed and I certainly would have a lot in my framework but I don't
feel that this would be a fruitful ground here. I had given the reasons.

My impression always was that the majority of contributers here are very
eager to create a real-word system that could be used for real applications.
This is why I freely and openly wrote about my impressions and experiences.

If somebody says: "I program for fun and contribute for my ego" - that's
absolutely fine with me. But my impressions did NOT reflect such an
attitude.


Tudor Girba-2 wrote
> Hi Frank,
> 
> Please be more polite with people that contribute open software that you
> have the option of actually playing with at no cost (other than time). 

The truth is never unpolite - but in these days of Yankee originated
censorship that is euphemistically called "political correctness" most
people also in Europe are infected by this madness, so that many people do
not want to hear any bitter facts any more.


> Saying that the people from around here lack skills is an unnecessary 

No that is a lie, I did not write that "they lack skills" nor anything
alike. 

I made clear that most do not document and that  many often do not really
finish their projects. That has nothing do with skills, rather with
finishing a task properly or only by 85% or 90% - and that has unfortunately
often been my impression in the Squeak/Pharo arena.


> remark and I am sure you can write more positive messages. 

I will and I always do but only when justified. 


> Beside creating a nicer atmosphere, being polite also pays off in the long
> term as you tend to get better reaction and support from people.

Well, you really don't need to tell me. I have managed large projects with
up to 30 developers so I really know how to motivate people and how to lead.
Oh, all of my projects became products and most of them in time. But still
and in total contrast to the general US attitude (see the current scandal at
Google), I will always stick to the truth and I know that 95% of all people,
whose boss I was, preferred this attitude.


> Back to the original subject, PharoJS is an external project that is
> kindly developed by people that want to explore a path that you actually
> seem eager to try. I would suggest restarting the conversation with
> describing the exact steps you undertook and explaining where the error is
> (The screenshots you send do not seem to show any error) and ask for
> guidelines.

Very simple and I wrote this very clearly: I loaded the code and tried to
"do it" the code in the Playground window. There was nothing more done and
therefore there are no steps to explain.


> Now, is documentation an issue in general. Of course, it is. And if you
> care about it, we would very much welcome a contribution from you in that
> area, or any other area you choose to.

That's rediculous! You ask somebody else to document already written code.
Pardon, but that's an extremely bad rethorical joke!

Documentation and comments must be written BEFORE any code is written and
must be ADJUSTED when the code is changed and finally when it seems to be
finished - from the developer's point of view.

If somebody seriously asks me - as an external - to document and comment
already finished and totally undocumented code of somebody I do not even
know, all I can think of is this old saying: "Oh Lord, forgive them as they
do not know what they are speaking about".

Hopefully, you don't mean this seriously, do you?

BTW: If somebody uses the word "issue" where actually "problem" or "fault"
or "mistake" would be correct, I see a sign of PC and successful brainwash. 

Missing documentation and IN-CODE comments are never an "issue" but always a
"problem" and a always a great "mistake".




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[Pharo-dev] Path * '' vs. Path workingDirectory

[Alistair Grant]

Hi All,

Is there any practical difference between (Path * '') and (Path
workingDirectory)?

Their internal representation is different:

- (Path * '') has one empty segment
- Path workingDirectory has no segments

But as far as I can tell they are otherwise the same:


| fs frEmpty frWD |

fs := FileSystem disk.
frEmpty := FileReference fileSystem: fs path: (Path * '').
frWD := FileReference fileSystem: fs path: Path workingDirectory.
String streamContents: [ :stream |
stream
<< 'frEmpty: '; 
<< frEmpty printString; cr;
<< 'frWD: '; 
<< frWD printString; cr;
<< '= : ';
<< (frEmpty absolutePath = frWD absolutePath) printString; cr.
]

'frEmpty: "File @ "
frWD: "File @ ."
= : true
'


Cheers,
Alistair

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

[Tudor Girba]

Hi Frank,

Please be more polite with people that contribute open software that you have 
the option of actually playing with at no cost (other than time). Saying that 
the people from around here lack skills is an unnecessary remark and I am sure 
you can write more positive messages. Beside creating a nicer atmosphere, being 
polite also pays off in the long term as you tend to get better reaction and 
support from people.

Back to the original subject, PharoJS is an external project that is kindly 
developed by people that want to explore a path that you actually seem eager to 
try. I would suggest restarting the conversation with describing the exact 
steps you undertook and explaining where the error is (The screenshots you send 
do not seem to show any error) and ask for guidelines.

Now, is documentation an issue in general. Of course, it is. And if you care 
about it, we would very much welcome a contribution from you in that area, or 
any other area you choose to.

Cheers,
Doru


> On Aug 13, 2017, at 4:46 PM, Frank-B  wrote:
> 
> As recommended here:
> http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-td4960519.html
> by @Serge, I loaded the code and tried to run it.
> 
> But, I almost tend to say "as usual", *it fails at first try*!
> 
> I "did" the code in the Playground window but nothing happens, no code is
> written into the selected directories. When I do "inspect it", I get a
> window (see screenshots), which does not really tell me either, what has
> happened (due to my lack of Pharo knowledge). 
> 
> Despite my over 20 years of full-time Smalltalk development, I have NOT any
> experience with either Squeak nor Pharo and most of my attempts to use them
> were very frustrating.
> 
> Also, I do not feel like trying around, if and because:
> - even the very first test fails immediately
> - there is no meaningful documentation available
> - the classes I looked at were all undocumented (for me, a 100% no-go, never
> ever acceptable)
> 
> And then, of course, also the test cases fail, because there is nothing in
> the diretories, where some earlier output was expected.
> 
> Pardon, but professionality and confidence causing systems look very
> different too me. I am writing this with sadness, because it is certainly
> not my first such experience in the Squeak/Pharo area.
> 
> There are some very bright people engaged here, but for some reason many of
> them lack some important aspects to be called professionals.
> 
> Just FYI: My very first application software, an "ERP" system, which I
> started developing more than 35 years ago in horrible Basic, is still
> feeding a company (not mine) with >25 people as their sole product and has a
> couple of hundred business users. Some of my former staff is still working
> there and they said, this is only possible because I did force them
> "dictatorially" to document / comment every single line of code. In the
> beginning, they hated me for that. Today they are very thanksful.
> 
> P.S. I DO have a very fast horse, because this is what one needs when
> telling the truth - in these days when truth is the worst "hate crime".
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

“Software has no shape. Actually, it has no one shape. It has many."

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try - missing screenshots

[Frank-B]

Pardon, here they are. 170813-PharoJS-Err01.PNG
  
170813-PharoJS-Err02.PNG
  



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Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS fails at first attempt

[Frank-B]

@Serge and @those who developed PharoJS

My first attempt to play with PharoJS failed.
See here: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686.html

Actually, this is what I had expected, because it resembles (unfortunately)
my general experience with Squeak/Pharo from several occaisional attempts to
use them.




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[Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

[Frank-B]

As recommended here:
http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-td4960519.html
by @Serge, I loaded the code and tried to run it.

But, I almost tend to say "as usual", *it fails at first try*!

I "did" the code in the Playground window but nothing happens, no code is
written into the selected directories. When I do "inspect it", I get a
window (see screenshots), which does not really tell me either, what has
happened (due to my lack of Pharo knowledge). 

Despite my over 20 years of full-time Smalltalk development, I have NOT any
experience with either Squeak nor Pharo and most of my attempts to use them
were very frustrating.

Also, I do not feel like trying around, if and because:
- even the very first test fails immediately
- there is no meaningful documentation available
- the classes I looked at were all undocumented (for me, a 100% no-go, never
ever acceptable)

And then, of course, also the test cases fail, because there is nothing in
the diretories, where some earlier output was expected.

Pardon, but professionality and confidence causing systems look very
different too me. I am writing this with sadness, because it is certainly
not my first such experience in the Squeak/Pharo area.

There are some very bright people engaged here, but for some reason many of
them lack some important aspects to be called professionals.

Just FYI: My very first application software, an "ERP" system, which I
started developing more than 35 years ago in horrible Basic, is still
feeding a company (not mine) with >25 people as their sole product and has a
couple of hundred business users. Some of my former staff is still working
there and they said, this is only possible because I did force them
"dictatorially" to document / comment every single line of code. In the
beginning, they hated me for that. Today they are very thanksful.

P.S. I DO have a very fast horse, because this is what one needs when
telling the truth - in these days when truth is the worst "hate crime".



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[Pharo-dev] PharoDays17: Bloc video - displaying metrics while prototyping

[Ben Coman]

I was watching PharoDays17: Bloc video and @53:15 there was a question due
to offset being negative...
   https://youtu.be/ikzkzfz0zAA?t=3197

...and I had a random idea (so not necessarily practical) that since we
have "metrics" as an object, I wonder if a built in feature to draw these
metrics on the canvas - kind of a developer guidelines to be used
temporarily during prototyping. Something like...
metrics red drawOn: aCanvas
which would be commented out of production code.


Now what I'm really interested in is a zoomable image window, preferably
using the mouse wheel.  Any chance such example if available somewhere?

cheers -ben

Re: [Pharo-dev] Orca versus PharoJS

[Frank-B]

@Serge
 
Merci beaucoup for the recommendation but I had looked at the PharoJS page a
few times before and I had not touched it, simply because it's the usual
thing that there is absolutely no meaningful information, description,
features list etc available. The slides don't really tell anything either
and the FAQ mainly tells where to get cups and shirts (ok that was nasty).
 
There are so many merely academic pseudo-solutions especially in the Squeak
and Pharo area, most of which have never really made it to production state,
that over the years I have become extremely sceptical. It's a great pity in
my eyes, because there are definitely many very bright people engaged there
and here. Unfortunately, many if not most Smalltalkers are very far away in
their perception and thinking from the end-users. 
 
The Orca docs are just the total opposite, they are very detailed, extremely
professional and very convincing. But I don't know yet about the code behind
and because of that I will now give PharoJS a try and look at it.
 




--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4960678.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Pharo-dev] Orca versus PharoJS

[Frank Berger Software]

@Serge

Merci beaucoup for the recommendation but I had looked at the PharoJS 
page a few times before and I had not touched it, simply because it's 
the usual thing that there is absolutely no meaningful information, 
description, features list etc available. The slides don't really tell 
anything either and the FAQ mainly tells where to get cups and shirts 
(ok that was nasty).


There are so many merely academic pseudo-solutions especially in the 
Squeak and Pharo area, most of which have never really made it to 
production state, that over the years I have become extremely sceptical. 
It's a great pity in my eyes, because there are definitely many very 
bright people engaged there and here. Unfortunately, many if not most 
Smalltalkers are very far away in their perception and thinking from the 
end-users.


The Orca docs are just the total opposite, they are very detailed, 
extremely professional and very convincing. But I don't know yet about 
the code behind and because of that I will now give PharoJS a try and 
look at it.

[Pharo-dev] Github and Fogbugz integration

[Guillermo Polito]

Hi all,

we just configured fogbugz and github integration as follows:

http://help.fogcreek.com/8048/integration-with-git

Quoting the instructions:


   1. Now you can refer to your FogBugz cases in your GitHub commits (just
   add “*case *” in the commit message)


That will link your fogbugz issues to the commits on integration.

Sadly, this just works for the integration of commits into the main
branches, not pull requests. For pull request integration we will probably
need a home made solution.

Cheers,
Guille et al

-- 



Guille Polito


Research Engineer

French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr*




*Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* 

*Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13

Re: [Pharo-dev] Using Orca for a modern 'sexy' Smalltalk User Interface

[serge . stinckwich]

You should have a look to PharoJS that allows you to deploy Pharo app in the 
browser: https://pharojs.github.io/

PharoJS is fully supported.

Envoyé de mon iPhone

> Le 13 août 2017 à 13:42, Frank-B  a écrit :
> 
> @Stephan
> 
> Granted and agreed!
> 
> But that does not explain why it seems that nobody has really used this
> obviously brilliant Orca approach!
> 
> In my view, this Orca approach seems by far 'better' in many respects than
> some pseudo-solutions that expect us to program in the browser (= just
> absurd) and which neglect the gigantic advantages of our Smalltalk IDEs over
> the JavaScript world.
> 
> Any Smalltalker who has ever tried to develop a bigger piece of JavsScript
> code (like I did) must have been disgusted by the stone-age status of the
> available tools and should welcome the availability to develop client-server
> solution entirely in Smalltalk.
> 
> And today, with the availability of WebSockets, there should even be far
> better ways of having an Orca-based client communicate with a Smalltalk
> driven server on a message-passing level. It seems that WebSockets have not
> been used in Orca in 2011 and before, but it should not be problem to add
> them.
> 
> Further, I see TIRADE by Göran Krampe
> http://goran.krampe.se/category/tirade/  as another useful addition.
> 
> But most importantly, Orca should be the basis for a much better alternative
> to this (in my view) insane, ugly and very slow Seaside.
> 
> Orca is the perfect tool to create a modern and entirely browser-based user
> interface with ONE single source code for browser AND desktop based
> Smalltalk driven applications.
> 
> This would overcome our (Smalltalk in general) greatest deficiency and that
> has always been the user-interface, which is the by far most decisive
> success factor for every application software today.
> 
> Look at the *Smalltalk UI status*, which for me is still nothing but a
> *tragedy*:
> 
> Desk-top only UI definitions exist in *VA and Dolphin* where Dolphin is at
> least close to what most users consider and expect as the standard and that
> is, if we like it or not, Windows.
> 
> The same is true for VW where the *VisualWorks UI* is internally totally
> insane, undocumented, old-fashioned in many aspects, not multi-lingual at
> all (despite their claims), 'polling', it’s simply “kaputt” from the very
> beginning.
> 
> *Squeak’s UI* is out of any discussion and *Pharo‘s UI* is somewhat more
> modern but miles away from what end-users expect and tolerate, not to
> mention what they would love as an application UI.
> 
> Having separate UI code for the desk-top and the browser is a sick idea
> anyway and therefore NO Smalltalk today is really suitable for developing
> modern, end-user friendly, simply “sexy” user interfaces.
> 
> I have always been convinced that the total absence of a 'good UI' in
> Smalltalk for desk-top and browser has been *the major reason for
> Smalltalk's failure* to attract a large and prefessional (developers of
> wide-spread standard software) user-base, apart from the greed [Goldberg]
> and arrogance towards the UI and the absurd licensing conditions and
> price-wishes of the early managers not only at ParcPlace but also at their
> successors (some of their licencing is rather slavery). 
> 
> Shouldn't we finally change this sad situation? 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4960668.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 

[Pharo-dev] eventual crashes pharo vm

[henry]

Hi all. I was testing with this eventual_test package and it blows up the pharo 
6.1 vm. I'd welcome pointers

http://www.squeaksource.com/TurquoiseTesting.html

- HH

Re: [Pharo-dev] New line on command line

[Guillermo Polito]

Rajula, you can debug the code in graphical mode also. Would you mind
investigating the bug and proposing a fix? It should not be difficult :)

Guille

On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Rajula Vineet 
wrote:

>
> Hi Rajula
>
> Hey
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 12:56 AM, Rajula Vineet <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hey,
>
> I have been trying to print on the command line as a part of my
> handler
> implementation. I have been using `nextPutAll: aString;lf.`
> Apparently, 'lf'
> does not seem to work. I tried 'cr' too. I am using the latest 7.0
> Pharo-vm
> and pharo image. I tried 'OSPlatform current lineEnding' as
> suggested by
> Clement Mastin. But, when I used the 6.0 version the 'lf' message
> is working
> fine.
>
>
> We did some changes to remodularize a bit more the kernel some weeks
> ago.
>
> The correct way to print a line ending is, as Clement pointed out,
> 'OSPlatform current lineEnding'. That is because there is no portable
> character for a new line. Each platform has its own.
>
> Oh! Cool!
>
> That said, maybe you found a bug :). Since the image before
> automatically transformed cr's in line endings for a platform, I did a
> stream decorator that replaces that behaviour for Pharo 7, I just did it to
> make it work, did not test it further actually.
>
> Oh! Yeah, it might be a bug.
>
> Could you try the following?
>
>  - seeing what happens if you print a new line twice?
>   nextPutAll: aString; lf;lf
>
> I tried it out, it is not changing anything. No new line.
>
>   - What is the stream you're using to print out? Transcript or
> Stdout? Could you show the entire expression you're using?
>
> Yeah, I am using stdout. This is the expression
> self stdoutnextPutAll: (SystemVersion current highestUpdate) asString;lf.
>
>   - Can you print out the stream you're using?
>  stream nextPutAll: stream asString; lf.
>
> Yeah, the stream I am using is a VTermOutputDriver.
>
> Guille
>
> Rajula
>
> Please find the attached image which demonstrates the same. The
> left
> terminal is of version 7.0, right one is of 6.0. Can someone help
> me out
> with this?
>  08-11_00-04-29.png>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/New-
> line-on-command-line-tp4960327.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
> Guille Polito
>
>
> Research Engineer
>
> French National Center for Scientific Research - http://www.cnrs.fr
>
>
>
> Web: http://guillep.github.io
>
> Phone: +33 06 52 70 66 13 <+33%206%2052%2070%2066%2013>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: Re: New line on command line
> 
>
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive
>  at
> Nabble.com.
>



-- 



Guille Polito


Research Engineer

French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr*




*Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* 

*Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13

Re: [Pharo-dev] Is there a portable way to check if a string is a block?

[Guillermo Polito]

RBParser parseMethod: '...'

parses a method

RBParser parseExpression: '...'

does it for an expression

But I think both of them return a method node? I cannot recall.

However, you can always do at the end

   node methodNode statements last isBlockNode

or something like that. Can't you?

On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 4:32 AM, Eliot Miranda 
wrote:

> Hi Mariano,
>
> _,,,^..^,,,_ (phone)
>
> On Jul 24, 2017, at 9:21 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck 
> wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Is there a portable (that would work in GemStone too) and safe way to know
> if a String would be a block?
>
> I must support this kind of strings:
>
> 'singleString'   -> false
> 'multi string' -> false
> '  [:a | 42]' -> true
> '   '' ''  [:a | 42]' -> true
> '[:a | 42]' -> true
> ' "a commet" [:a | 42]' -> true
> ' WhateverClass someVeryBadHackishMethod. [:a | 42]' -> true
>
> I need to identify whether the string is a closure or not. And ideally, I
> don't want to do an #evaluate: because I don't want any left hand code to
> be executed.
> I tried with #parse:  why I am having problems.
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
> Not sure if you're still stuck but if you dive into evaluate: you'll be
> able to find the point at which it parses, and find out how to invoke the
> parser for an expression (a doit).   evaluate: parses an expression so
> you want to check that the resulting parse tree is that of a return node
> whose expression is a literal block.  You can also check the block's
> argument count.
>
> Once you've extracted the parser invocation you can wrap this in a
> suitable exception handler.  Then you have your block parser.  You still
> have to validate the parse tree and/or generated code before evaluating
> since someone could write malicious code within the block right?
>
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> --
> Mariano
> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
>
>


-- 



Guille Polito


Research Engineer

French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr*




*Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* 

*Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13

Re: [Pharo-dev] Using Orca for a modern 'sexy' Smalltalk User Interface

[Frank-B]

@Stephan

Granted and agreed!

But that does not explain why it seems that nobody has really used this
obviously brilliant Orca approach!

In my view, this Orca approach seems by far 'better' in many respects than
some pseudo-solutions that expect us to program in the browser (= just
absurd) and which neglect the gigantic advantages of our Smalltalk IDEs over
the JavaScript world.

Any Smalltalker who has ever tried to develop a bigger piece of JavsScript
code (like I did) must have been disgusted by the stone-age status of the
available tools and should welcome the availability to develop client-server
solution entirely in Smalltalk.

And today, with the availability of WebSockets, there should even be far
better ways of having an Orca-based client communicate with a Smalltalk
driven server on a message-passing level. It seems that WebSockets have not
been used in Orca in 2011 and before, but it should not be problem to add
them.

Further, I see TIRADE by Göran Krampe
http://goran.krampe.se/category/tirade/  as another useful addition.

But most importantly, Orca should be the basis for a much better alternative
to this (in my view) insane, ugly and very slow Seaside.

Orca is the perfect tool to create a modern and entirely browser-based user
interface with ONE single source code for browser AND desktop based
Smalltalk driven applications.

This would overcome our (Smalltalk in general) greatest deficiency and that
has always been the user-interface, which is the by far most decisive
success factor for every application software today.

Look at the *Smalltalk UI status*, which for me is still nothing but a
*tragedy*:

Desk-top only UI definitions exist in *VA and Dolphin* where Dolphin is at
least close to what most users consider and expect as the standard and that
is, if we like it or not, Windows.

The same is true for VW where the *VisualWorks UI* is internally totally
insane, undocumented, old-fashioned in many aspects, not multi-lingual at
all (despite their claims), 'polling', it’s simply “kaputt” from the very
beginning.

*Squeak’s UI* is out of any discussion and *Pharo‘s UI* is somewhat more
modern but miles away from what end-users expect and tolerate, not to
mention what they would love as an application UI.

Having separate UI code for the desk-top and the browser is a sick idea
anyway and therefore NO Smalltalk today is really suitable for developing
modern, end-user friendly, simply “sexy” user interfaces.

I have always been convinced that the total absence of a 'good UI' in
Smalltalk for desk-top and browser has been *the major reason for
Smalltalk's failure* to attract a large and prefessional (developers of
wide-spread standard software) user-base, apart from the greed [Goldberg]
and arrogance towards the UI and the absurd licensing conditions and
price-wishes of the early managers not only at ParcPlace but also at their
successors (some of their licencing is rather slavery). 

Shouldn't we finally change this sad situation? 



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4960668.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

[stephan]

On 12-08-17 22:24, Frank Berger Software wrote:
the available documentation on Orca looks brilliant and the source, 
Hasso-Plattner-Institut in Potsdam, has an excellent reputation. It 
looks all very professional.


I am therefore most suprised that I cannot find any tracks of usage of 
Orca, neither here, nor elsewhere on the net, and not even any serious 
discussions.


It was indeed a well-executed bachelor project from HPI, that was 
submitted for the ESUG21011 InnovationTechnologyAwards. It was released
under MIT at the end of the project. HPI however, is a research 
institute and needs to be very careful about which projects it can 
afford to support indefinitely.


https://github.com/bp2010h1
http://esug.org/wiki/pier/Conferences/2011/InnovationTechnologyAwards/Submissions
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/orcaproject/

Stephan