Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Herbert Vojčík]

Denis Kudriashov wrote:


2018-02-13 10:25 GMT+01:00 Marcus Denker >:

Sometimes I think we should treat globals more in a “late bound”
fashion.

e.g. right now we say that “Undeclared” vars are to be avoided at
any cost.

But we could just treat them like we treat messages that are send
that do not exist.

Forcing “#classNamed: “ for all unknown globals is a bit similar
than forcing to use “perform:” for
all unknown selectors.

e.g. why have Smalltalk at: #SomeClass and react to it if you could
instead reason on the fact that
a variable is not bound (yet).

SomeGlobal ifUndefined: [  ].


I really like this idea. We just need to represent undefined variable
value as special object instead of nil.


I don't like it for precisely this. In JS, there is undefined and null, 
and everyone hates that (despite maybe good intentions to split the two 
meanings).


#SomeGlobal inContextOf: self ifUndefined: [ ... ]

Maybe this could go if enough magic is done, though:

[ SomeGlobal ] ifUndefined: [ ... ]


This way we would not obscure the fact that we are accessing a
global and we model explicitly the state
if it is bound or not.

Would that no be better than hiding it behind an API to look up symbols?

(just some thoughts, needs more thinking before action is possible)

Marcus


On 11 Feb 2018, at 22:12, Richard Sargent
> wrote:

There are two use cases that come immediately to mind. They may be
the two most important.

"As a Compiler, I need to be able to resolve a Symbol to a known
Object."
"As a Browser, I need to be able to identify the possible
resolutions of a String to known Objects."


I can elaborate on those, but I think they are pretty clear no
matter what scopes, namespaces, environments, modules, or whatever
one uses to organize things in the image. (One can even imagine an
external registry of names that could be searched and yield up
suggestions of external packages that would be needed.)

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Denis Kudriashov
> wrote:



2018-02-11 21:08 GMT+01:00 Stephane Ducasse
>:

Denis

we should introduce classNamed: now we can have traits and
globals too :(


Yes, we need to think about it.

Idea? may be can still classNamed:

Stef


On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 8:55 PM, Denis Kudriashov
> wrote:
>
>
> 2018-02-11 20:36 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand
>:
>>
>> 2018-02-11 16:10 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov
>:
>> > Hi Hernan.
>> >
>> > 2018-02-11 19:57 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand
>> > >:
>> >>
>> >> Hi Denis
>> >>
>> >> 2018-02-10 15:18 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov
>:
>> >> >
>> >> > 2018-02-10 20:59 GMT+03:00 Stephane Ducasse
>> >> > >:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Please to not use an unary on Symbol
>> >> >> Dispatch on something.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> self class environment at: #Array
>> >> >> is the best
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > We should not use collection API for reflection
calls. It makes them
>> >> > very
>> >> > difficult to find. Let's use explicit names like:
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Sorry I do not see it.
>> >>
>> >> The Collection API is beautiful, why couldn't be
used for reflection?
>> >
>> >
>> > We have around 3000 senders of #at: message in the
image. Do you think
>> > it is
>> > easy to filter reflective calls?
>> >
>>
>> I still don't understand your use case, nor how the
#at: is related
>> with the #asClass issue.
>>
>> Do you mean **further** filtering for relflective sends?
>>
>> Does this affects common-usage beyond Browser development?
>
>
> The Stef proposal was that we should never use #asClass
 

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Sean P. DeNigris]

Marcus Denker-4 wrote
> Sometimes I think we should treat globals more in a “late bound” fashion.

Late bound = power. I remember being very disappointed when I realized that
classes are early bound by methods (resolved in literals). This makes things
like class-side stubbing very difficult without jumping through hoops (e.g.
process variables).



-
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Marcus Denker]

> On 13 Feb 2018, at 11:32, Ben Coman  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 13 February 2018 at 17:25, Marcus Denker  > wrote:
> Sometimes I think we should treat globals more in a “late bound” fashion.
> 
> 
> This may remove a big reason for needing asClass, which was introduced so you 
> could DoIt 
> on a script to load a package and then operate on a class from that package 
> before that class was defined.
> 
>  
> e.g. right now we say that “Undeclared” vars are to be avoided at any cost.
> 
> But we could just treat them like we treat messages that are send that do not 
> exist.
> 
> Forcing “#classNamed: “ for all unknown globals is a bit similar than forcing 
> to use “perform:” for
> all unknown selectors. 
> 
> e.g. why have Smalltalk at: #SomeClass and react to it if you could instead 
> reason on the fact that
> a variable is not bound (yet).
> 
> SomeGlobal ifUndefined: [  ].
> 
> This way we would not obscure the fact that we are accessing a global and we 
> model explicitly the state 
> if it is bound or not.
> 
> I guess its partially a compiler issue.  One way would be for the compiler to 
> wrap the reference
> to SomeGlobal in an instance of UnknownGlobal.  When a message is sent to 
> that instance, 
> it can check whether SomeGlobal is now defined (i.e. loaded earlier in the 
> script) and forward the message to SomeGlobal.
> 
The current Undeclared mechanism should make it easy: for every Undeclared, we 
do have a binding in Undeclared that binds the name
to nil. Could be another value (some first class object). Maybe it could even 
put as the value the binging itself, which is already
a subclass of Association called UndeclaredVariable.

Marcus

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Ben Coman]

On 13 February 2018 at 17:25, Marcus Denker  wrote:

> Sometimes I think we should treat globals more in a “late bound” fashion.
>
>
This may remove a big reason for needing asClass, which was introduced so
you could DoIt
on a script to load a package and then operate on a class from that package
before that class was defined.



> e.g. right now we say that “Undeclared” vars are to be avoided at any cost.
>
> But we could just treat them like we treat messages that are send that do
> not exist.
>
> Forcing “#classNamed: “ for all unknown globals is a bit similar than
> forcing to use “perform:” for
> all unknown selectors.
>
> e.g. why have Smalltalk at: #SomeClass and react to it if you could
> instead reason on the fact that
> a variable is not bound (yet).
>
> SomeGlobal ifUndefined: [  ].
>
> This way we would not obscure the fact that we are accessing a global and
> we model explicitly the state
> if it is bound or not.
>

I guess its partially a compiler issue.  One way would be for the compiler
to wrap the reference
to SomeGlobal in an instance of UnknownGlobal.  When a message is sent to
that instance,
it can check whether SomeGlobal is now defined (i.e. loaded earlier in the
script) and forward the message to SomeGlobal.



>
> Would that no be better than hiding it behind an API to look up symbols?
>
>
yes.

cheers -ben


> (just some thoughts, needs more thinking before action is possible)
>
> Marcus
>
> On 11 Feb 2018, at 22:12, Richard Sargent  gemtalksystems.com> wrote:
>
> There are two use cases that come immediately to mind. They may be the two
> most important.
>
> "As a Compiler, I need to be able to resolve a Symbol to a known Object."
> "As a Browser, I need to be able to identify the possible resolutions of a
> String to known Objects."
>
>
> I can elaborate on those, but I think they are pretty clear no matter what
> scopes, namespaces, environments, modules, or whatever one uses to organize
> things in the image. (One can even imagine an external registry of names
> that could be searched and yield up suggestions of external packages that
> would be needed.)
>
> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Denis Kudriashov 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> 2018-02-11 21:08 GMT+01:00 Stephane Ducasse :
>>
>>> Denis
>>>
>>> we should introduce classNamed: now we can have traits and globals too :(
>>>
>>
>> Yes, we need to think about it.
>>
>>
>>> Idea? may be can still classNamed:
>>>
>>> Stef
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 8:55 PM, Denis Kudriashov 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 2018-02-11 20:36 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand <
>>> hernan.mora...@gmail.com>:
>>> >>
>>> >> 2018-02-11 16:10 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov :
>>> >> > Hi Hernan.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > 2018-02-11 19:57 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand
>>> >> > :
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Hi Denis
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> 2018-02-10 15:18 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov >> >:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > 2018-02-10 20:59 GMT+03:00 Stephane Ducasse
>>> >> >> > :
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Please to not use an unary on Symbol
>>> >> >> >> Dispatch on something.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> self class environment at: #Array
>>> >> >> >> is the best
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > We should not use collection API for reflection calls. It makes
>>> them
>>> >> >> > very
>>> >> >> > difficult to find. Let's use explicit names like:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Sorry I do not see it.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> The Collection API is beautiful, why couldn't be used for
>>> reflection?
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > We have around 3000 senders of #at: message in the image. Do you
>>> think
>>> >> > it is
>>> >> > easy to filter reflective calls?
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >> I still don't understand your use case, nor how the #at: is related
>>> >> with the #asClass issue.
>>> >>
>>> >> Do you mean **further** filtering for relflective sends?
>>> >>
>>> >> Does this affects common-usage beyond Browser development?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The Stef proposal was that we should never use #asClass in the code.
>>> It is
>>> > fine for scripting but not for the domain code by many reasons which
>>> were
>>> > discussed here and at the past.
>>> >
>>> > But I only commented the proposed replacement:
>>> >
>>> > self class environment at: #Object
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > If you do not like it, it is different story. I just described problem
>>> with
>>> > #at: message:
>>> >
>>> > We already replaced many #asClass users with this code. And now it is
>>> quite
>>> > difficult to find such places. They all hidden inside 3000 senders of
>>> #at:.
>>> > If we will use #classNamed: instead of #at: then simple senders query
>>> will
>>> > easily detect all reflective calls.
>>> > (we probably already use it but not in all places).
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I have no trouble finding #asClass senders, 

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Denis Kudriashov]

2018-02-13 10:25 GMT+01:00 Marcus Denker :

> Sometimes I think we should treat globals more in a “late bound” fashion.
>
> e.g. right now we say that “Undeclared” vars are to be avoided at any cost.
>
> But we could just treat them like we treat messages that are send that do
> not exist.
>
> Forcing “#classNamed: “ for all unknown globals is a bit similar than
> forcing to use “perform:” for
> all unknown selectors.
>
> e.g. why have Smalltalk at: #SomeClass and react to it if you could
> instead reason on the fact that
> a variable is not bound (yet).
>
> SomeGlobal ifUndefined: [  ].
>

I really like this idea. We just need to represent undefined variable value
as special object instead of nil.


>
> This way we would not obscure the fact that we are accessing a global and
> we model explicitly the state
> if it is bound or not.
>
> Would that no be better than hiding it behind an API to look up symbols?
>
> (just some thoughts, needs more thinking before action is possible)
>
> Marcus
>
> On 11 Feb 2018, at 22:12, Richard Sargent  gemtalksystems.com> wrote:
>
> There are two use cases that come immediately to mind. They may be the two
> most important.
>
> "As a Compiler, I need to be able to resolve a Symbol to a known Object."
> "As a Browser, I need to be able to identify the possible resolutions of a
> String to known Objects."
>
>
> I can elaborate on those, but I think they are pretty clear no matter what
> scopes, namespaces, environments, modules, or whatever one uses to organize
> things in the image. (One can even imagine an external registry of names
> that could be searched and yield up suggestions of external packages that
> would be needed.)
>
> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Denis Kudriashov 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> 2018-02-11 21:08 GMT+01:00 Stephane Ducasse :
>>
>>> Denis
>>>
>>> we should introduce classNamed: now we can have traits and globals too :(
>>>
>>
>> Yes, we need to think about it.
>>
>>
>>> Idea? may be can still classNamed:
>>>
>>> Stef
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 8:55 PM, Denis Kudriashov 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 2018-02-11 20:36 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand <
>>> hernan.mora...@gmail.com>:
>>> >>
>>> >> 2018-02-11 16:10 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov :
>>> >> > Hi Hernan.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > 2018-02-11 19:57 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand
>>> >> > :
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Hi Denis
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> 2018-02-10 15:18 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov >> >:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > 2018-02-10 20:59 GMT+03:00 Stephane Ducasse
>>> >> >> > :
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Please to not use an unary on Symbol
>>> >> >> >> Dispatch on something.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> self class environment at: #Array
>>> >> >> >> is the best
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > We should not use collection API for reflection calls. It makes
>>> them
>>> >> >> > very
>>> >> >> > difficult to find. Let's use explicit names like:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Sorry I do not see it.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> The Collection API is beautiful, why couldn't be used for
>>> reflection?
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > We have around 3000 senders of #at: message in the image. Do you
>>> think
>>> >> > it is
>>> >> > easy to filter reflective calls?
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >> I still don't understand your use case, nor how the #at: is related
>>> >> with the #asClass issue.
>>> >>
>>> >> Do you mean **further** filtering for relflective sends?
>>> >>
>>> >> Does this affects common-usage beyond Browser development?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The Stef proposal was that we should never use #asClass in the code.
>>> It is
>>> > fine for scripting but not for the domain code by many reasons which
>>> were
>>> > discussed here and at the past.
>>> >
>>> > But I only commented the proposed replacement:
>>> >
>>> > self class environment at: #Object
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > If you do not like it, it is different story. I just described problem
>>> with
>>> > #at: message:
>>> >
>>> > We already replaced many #asClass users with this code. And now it is
>>> quite
>>> > difficult to find such places. They all hidden inside 3000 senders of
>>> #at:.
>>> > If we will use #classNamed: instead of #at: then simple senders query
>>> will
>>> > easily detect all reflective calls.
>>> > (we probably already use it but not in all places).
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I have no trouble finding #asClass senders, implementors, etc.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> What do you want to find?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > self class environment classNamed: #Array
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Too much typing :)
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > From the other side we all agree that #asClass is super handy
>>> method.
>>> >> >> > And we
>>> >> >> > can fix it to respect sender environment using thisContext. It
>>> will
>>> >> >> > affects
>>> >> >> > performance 

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Marcus Denker]

Sometimes I think we should treat globals more in a “late bound” fashion.

e.g. right now we say that “Undeclared” vars are to be avoided at any cost.

But we could just treat them like we treat messages that are send that do not 
exist.

Forcing “#classNamed: “ for all unknown globals is a bit similar than forcing 
to use “perform:” for
all unknown selectors. 

e.g. why have Smalltalk at: #SomeClass and react to it if you could instead 
reason on the fact that
a variable is not bound (yet).

SomeGlobal ifUndefined: [  ].

This way we would not obscure the fact that we are accessing a global and we 
model explicitly the state 
if it is bound or not.

Would that no be better than hiding it behind an API to look up symbols?

(just some thoughts, needs more thinking before action is possible)

Marcus

> On 11 Feb 2018, at 22:12, Richard Sargent 
>  wrote:
> 
> There are two use cases that come immediately to mind. They may be the two 
> most important.
> 
> "As a Compiler, I need to be able to resolve a Symbol to a known Object."
> "As a Browser, I need to be able to identify the possible resolutions of a 
> String to known Objects."
> 
> 
> I can elaborate on those, but I think they are pretty clear no matter what 
> scopes, namespaces, environments, modules, or whatever one uses to organize 
> things in the image. (One can even imagine an external registry of names that 
> could be searched and yield up suggestions of external packages that would be 
> needed.)
> 
> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Denis Kudriashov  > wrote:
> 
> 
> 2018-02-11 21:08 GMT+01:00 Stephane Ducasse  >:
> Denis
> 
> we should introduce classNamed: now we can have traits and globals too :(
> 
> Yes, we need to think about it.
>  
> Idea? may be can still classNamed:
> 
> Stef
> 
> 
> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 8:55 PM, Denis Kudriashov  > wrote:
> >
> >
> > 2018-02-11 20:36 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand  > >:
> >>
> >> 2018-02-11 16:10 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov  >> >:
> >> > Hi Hernan.
> >> >
> >> > 2018-02-11 19:57 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand
> >> > >:
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi Denis
> >> >>
> >> >> 2018-02-10 15:18 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov  >> >> >:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2018-02-10 20:59 GMT+03:00 Stephane Ducasse
> >> >> > >:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Please to not use an unary on Symbol
> >> >> >> Dispatch on something.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> self class environment at: #Array
> >> >> >> is the best
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > We should not use collection API for reflection calls. It makes them
> >> >> > very
> >> >> > difficult to find. Let's use explicit names like:
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Sorry I do not see it.
> >> >>
> >> >> The Collection API is beautiful, why couldn't be used for reflection?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > We have around 3000 senders of #at: message in the image. Do you think
> >> > it is
> >> > easy to filter reflective calls?
> >> >
> >>
> >> I still don't understand your use case, nor how the #at: is related
> >> with the #asClass issue.
> >>
> >> Do you mean **further** filtering for relflective sends?
> >>
> >> Does this affects common-usage beyond Browser development?
> >
> >
> > The Stef proposal was that we should never use #asClass in the code. It is
> > fine for scripting but not for the domain code by many reasons which were
> > discussed here and at the past.
> >
> > But I only commented the proposed replacement:
> >
> > self class environment at: #Object
> >
> >
> > If you do not like it, it is different story. I just described problem with
> > #at: message:
> >
> > We already replaced many #asClass users with this code. And now it is quite
> > difficult to find such places. They all hidden inside 3000 senders of #at:.
> > If we will use #classNamed: instead of #at: then simple senders query will
> > easily detect all reflective calls.
> > (we probably already use it but not in all places).
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I have no trouble finding #asClass senders, implementors, etc.
> >> >>
> >> >> What do you want to find?
> >> >>
> >> >> > self class environment classNamed: #Array
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Too much typing :)
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > From the other side we all agree that #asClass is super handy method.
> >> >> > And we
> >> >> > can fix it to respect sender environment using thisContext. It will
> >> >> > affects
> >> >> > performance but with our super powerful metalinks it can be easily
> >> >> > cached
> >> >> > (#asMethodConst is implemented that way).
> >> >> > So we can make environment completely 

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Richard Sargent]

There are two use cases that come immediately to mind. They may be the two
most important.

"As a Compiler, I need to be able to resolve a Symbol to a known Object."
"As a Browser, I need to be able to identify the possible resolutions of a
String to known Objects."


I can elaborate on those, but I think they are pretty clear no matter what
scopes, namespaces, environments, modules, or whatever one uses to organize
things in the image. (One can even imagine an external registry of names
that could be searched and yield up suggestions of external packages that
would be needed.)

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Denis Kudriashov 
wrote:

>
>
> 2018-02-11 21:08 GMT+01:00 Stephane Ducasse :
>
>> Denis
>>
>> we should introduce classNamed: now we can have traits and globals too :(
>>
>
> Yes, we need to think about it.
>
>
>> Idea? may be can still classNamed:
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 8:55 PM, Denis Kudriashov 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > 2018-02-11 20:36 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand <
>> hernan.mora...@gmail.com>:
>> >>
>> >> 2018-02-11 16:10 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov :
>> >> > Hi Hernan.
>> >> >
>> >> > 2018-02-11 19:57 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand
>> >> > :
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hi Denis
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2018-02-10 15:18 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov :
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > 2018-02-10 20:59 GMT+03:00 Stephane Ducasse
>> >> >> > :
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Please to not use an unary on Symbol
>> >> >> >> Dispatch on something.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> self class environment at: #Array
>> >> >> >> is the best
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > We should not use collection API for reflection calls. It makes
>> them
>> >> >> > very
>> >> >> > difficult to find. Let's use explicit names like:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sorry I do not see it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The Collection API is beautiful, why couldn't be used for
>> reflection?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > We have around 3000 senders of #at: message in the image. Do you
>> think
>> >> > it is
>> >> > easy to filter reflective calls?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> I still don't understand your use case, nor how the #at: is related
>> >> with the #asClass issue.
>> >>
>> >> Do you mean **further** filtering for relflective sends?
>> >>
>> >> Does this affects common-usage beyond Browser development?
>> >
>> >
>> > The Stef proposal was that we should never use #asClass in the code. It
>> is
>> > fine for scripting but not for the domain code by many reasons which
>> were
>> > discussed here and at the past.
>> >
>> > But I only commented the proposed replacement:
>> >
>> > self class environment at: #Object
>> >
>> >
>> > If you do not like it, it is different story. I just described problem
>> with
>> > #at: message:
>> >
>> > We already replaced many #asClass users with this code. And now it is
>> quite
>> > difficult to find such places. They all hidden inside 3000 senders of
>> #at:.
>> > If we will use #classNamed: instead of #at: then simple senders query
>> will
>> > easily detect all reflective calls.
>> > (we probably already use it but not in all places).
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I have no trouble finding #asClass senders, implementors, etc.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What do you want to find?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > self class environment classNamed: #Array
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Too much typing :)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > From the other side we all agree that #asClass is super handy
>> method.
>> >> >> > And we
>> >> >> > can fix it to respect sender environment using thisContext. It
>> will
>> >> >> > affects
>> >> >> > performance but with our super powerful metalinks it can be easily
>> >> >> > cached
>> >> >> > (#asMethodConst is implemented that way).
>> >> >> > So we can make environment completely transparent for users.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Best regards,
>> >> >> > Denis
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> For Modules, we made progress and got bitten by many issues and
>> >> >> >> teaching
>> >> >> >> load.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Stef
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Clément Bera
>> >> >> >> 
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Hernán Morales Durand
>> >> >> >> >  wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Hi Clément,
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> First time I read about modules in Pharo.
>> >> >> >> >> What is a module exactly?
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> What's the problem to solve?
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > It's similar to namespaces with some different, arguably
>> better,
>> >> >> >> > features.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Honestly I am not the expert on it so I would like some one
>> else
>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> > answer.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Among other things, it solves the problem of having 2 classes
>> with
>> >> >> >> > the

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Denis Kudriashov]

2018-02-11 21:08 GMT+01:00 Stephane Ducasse :

> Denis
>
> we should introduce classNamed: now we can have traits and globals too :(
>

Yes, we need to think about it.


> Idea? may be can still classNamed:
>
> Stef
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 8:55 PM, Denis Kudriashov 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > 2018-02-11 20:36 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand <
> hernan.mora...@gmail.com>:
> >>
> >> 2018-02-11 16:10 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov :
> >> > Hi Hernan.
> >> >
> >> > 2018-02-11 19:57 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand
> >> > :
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi Denis
> >> >>
> >> >> 2018-02-10 15:18 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov :
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2018-02-10 20:59 GMT+03:00 Stephane Ducasse
> >> >> > :
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Please to not use an unary on Symbol
> >> >> >> Dispatch on something.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> self class environment at: #Array
> >> >> >> is the best
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > We should not use collection API for reflection calls. It makes
> them
> >> >> > very
> >> >> > difficult to find. Let's use explicit names like:
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Sorry I do not see it.
> >> >>
> >> >> The Collection API is beautiful, why couldn't be used for reflection?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > We have around 3000 senders of #at: message in the image. Do you think
> >> > it is
> >> > easy to filter reflective calls?
> >> >
> >>
> >> I still don't understand your use case, nor how the #at: is related
> >> with the #asClass issue.
> >>
> >> Do you mean **further** filtering for relflective sends?
> >>
> >> Does this affects common-usage beyond Browser development?
> >
> >
> > The Stef proposal was that we should never use #asClass in the code. It
> is
> > fine for scripting but not for the domain code by many reasons which were
> > discussed here and at the past.
> >
> > But I only commented the proposed replacement:
> >
> > self class environment at: #Object
> >
> >
> > If you do not like it, it is different story. I just described problem
> with
> > #at: message:
> >
> > We already replaced many #asClass users with this code. And now it is
> quite
> > difficult to find such places. They all hidden inside 3000 senders of
> #at:.
> > If we will use #classNamed: instead of #at: then simple senders query
> will
> > easily detect all reflective calls.
> > (we probably already use it but not in all places).
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I have no trouble finding #asClass senders, implementors, etc.
> >> >>
> >> >> What do you want to find?
> >> >>
> >> >> > self class environment classNamed: #Array
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Too much typing :)
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > From the other side we all agree that #asClass is super handy
> method.
> >> >> > And we
> >> >> > can fix it to respect sender environment using thisContext. It will
> >> >> > affects
> >> >> > performance but with our super powerful metalinks it can be easily
> >> >> > cached
> >> >> > (#asMethodConst is implemented that way).
> >> >> > So we can make environment completely transparent for users.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Best regards,
> >> >> > Denis
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> For Modules, we made progress and got bitten by many issues and
> >> >> >> teaching
> >> >> >> load.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Stef
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Clément Bera
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Hernán Morales Durand
> >> >> >> >  wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Hi Clément,
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> First time I read about modules in Pharo.
> >> >> >> >> What is a module exactly?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> What's the problem to solve?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > It's similar to namespaces with some different, arguably better,
> >> >> >> > features.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Honestly I am not the expert on it so I would like some one else
> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> > answer.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Among other things, it solves the problem of having 2 classes
> with
> >> >> >> > the
> >> >> >> > same
> >> >> >> > name (avoiding the prefixes we have like in C). But reportedly
> >> >> >> > that's
> >> >> >> > just a
> >> >> >> > side-effect and not the main problem to solve.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Cheers,
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Hernán
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> 2018-02-10 9:47 GMT-03:00 Clément Bera  >:
> >> >> >> >> > Hi,
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > In short, everything that is not namespace/module compatible
> >> >> >> >> > will
> >> >> >> >> > be
> >> >> >> >> > deprecated/changed/removed in the future, so it is not
> >> >> >> >> > recommended
> >> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> >> > use
> >> >> >> >> > it.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
> >> >> >> >> > b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
> >> >> >> >> > => 

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Hernán Morales Durand]

2018-02-11 16:55 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov :
>
>
> 2018-02-11 20:36 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand :
>>
>> 2018-02-11 16:10 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov :
>> > Hi Hernan.
>> >
>> > 2018-02-11 19:57 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand
>> > :
>> >>
>> >> Hi Denis
>> >>
>> >> 2018-02-10 15:18 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov :
>> >> >
>> >> > 2018-02-10 20:59 GMT+03:00 Stephane Ducasse
>> >> > :
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Please to not use an unary on Symbol
>> >> >> Dispatch on something.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> self class environment at: #Array
>> >> >> is the best
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > We should not use collection API for reflection calls. It makes them
>> >> > very
>> >> > difficult to find. Let's use explicit names like:
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Sorry I do not see it.
>> >>
>> >> The Collection API is beautiful, why couldn't be used for reflection?
>> >
>> >
>> > We have around 3000 senders of #at: message in the image. Do you think
>> > it is
>> > easy to filter reflective calls?
>> >
>>
>> I still don't understand your use case, nor how the #at: is related
>> with the #asClass issue.
>>
>> Do you mean **further** filtering for relflective sends?
>>
>> Does this affects common-usage beyond Browser development?
>
>
> The Stef proposal was that we should never use #asClass in the code. It is
> fine for scripting but not for the domain code by many reasons which were
> discussed here and at the past.

Maybe it's too drastic not using any unary on Symbol. There are a lot
right now: #asIcon, #asMutator, #asSlot, #asString, #isDoIt, #senders,
etc. without counting those from String and up. I will check for the
past discussion.

>
> But I only commented the proposed replacement:
>
> self class environment at: #Object
>
>
> If you do not like it, it is different story. I just described problem with
> #at: message:
>

It's not a problem of like ir or not.
It's about future migration effort for issues which maybe are not so common.

> We already replaced many #asClass users with this code. And now it is quite
> difficult to find such places. They all hidden inside 3000 senders of #at:.
> If we will use #classNamed: instead of #at: then simple senders query will
> easily detect all reflective calls.
> (we probably already use it but not in all places).
>

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

Cheers,

Hernán

>>
>>
>> >>
>> >> I have no trouble finding #asClass senders, implementors, etc.
>> >>
>> >> What do you want to find?
>> >>
>> >> > self class environment classNamed: #Array
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Too much typing :)
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > From the other side we all agree that #asClass is super handy method.
>> >> > And we
>> >> > can fix it to respect sender environment using thisContext. It will
>> >> > affects
>> >> > performance but with our super powerful metalinks it can be easily
>> >> > cached
>> >> > (#asMethodConst is implemented that way).
>> >> > So we can make environment completely transparent for users.
>> >> >
>> >> > Best regards,
>> >> > Denis
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> For Modules, we made progress and got bitten by many issues and
>> >> >> teaching
>> >> >> load.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Stef
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Clément Bera
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Hernán Morales Durand
>> >> >> >  wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Hi Clément,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> First time I read about modules in Pharo.
>> >> >> >> What is a module exactly?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> What's the problem to solve?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > It's similar to namespaces with some different, arguably better,
>> >> >> > features.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Honestly I am not the expert on it so I would like some one else
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > answer.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Among other things, it solves the problem of having 2 classes with
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > same
>> >> >> > name (avoiding the prefixes we have like in C). But reportedly
>> >> >> > that's
>> >> >> > just a
>> >> >> > side-effect and not the main problem to solve.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Cheers,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Hernán
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 2018-02-10 9:47 GMT-03:00 Clément Bera :
>> >> >> >> > Hi,
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > In short, everything that is not namespace/module compatible
>> >> >> >> > will
>> >> >> >> > be
>> >> >> >> > deprecated/changed/removed in the future, so it is not
>> >> >> >> > recommended
>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> > use
>> >> >> >> > it.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
>> >> >> >> > b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
>> >> >> >> > => Ok-ish, note that you may need to change 'Smalltalk globals'
>> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> > namespace/module when support for those will be added since
>> >> >> >> > Array
>> >> 

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Stephane Ducasse]

Denis

we should introduce classNamed: now we can have traits and globals too :(
Idea? may be can still classNamed:

Stef


On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 8:55 PM, Denis Kudriashov  wrote:
>
>
> 2018-02-11 20:36 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand :
>>
>> 2018-02-11 16:10 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov :
>> > Hi Hernan.
>> >
>> > 2018-02-11 19:57 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand
>> > :
>> >>
>> >> Hi Denis
>> >>
>> >> 2018-02-10 15:18 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov :
>> >> >
>> >> > 2018-02-10 20:59 GMT+03:00 Stephane Ducasse
>> >> > :
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Please to not use an unary on Symbol
>> >> >> Dispatch on something.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> self class environment at: #Array
>> >> >> is the best
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > We should not use collection API for reflection calls. It makes them
>> >> > very
>> >> > difficult to find. Let's use explicit names like:
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Sorry I do not see it.
>> >>
>> >> The Collection API is beautiful, why couldn't be used for reflection?
>> >
>> >
>> > We have around 3000 senders of #at: message in the image. Do you think
>> > it is
>> > easy to filter reflective calls?
>> >
>>
>> I still don't understand your use case, nor how the #at: is related
>> with the #asClass issue.
>>
>> Do you mean **further** filtering for relflective sends?
>>
>> Does this affects common-usage beyond Browser development?
>
>
> The Stef proposal was that we should never use #asClass in the code. It is
> fine for scripting but not for the domain code by many reasons which were
> discussed here and at the past.
>
> But I only commented the proposed replacement:
>
> self class environment at: #Object
>
>
> If you do not like it, it is different story. I just described problem with
> #at: message:
>
> We already replaced many #asClass users with this code. And now it is quite
> difficult to find such places. They all hidden inside 3000 senders of #at:.
> If we will use #classNamed: instead of #at: then simple senders query will
> easily detect all reflective calls.
> (we probably already use it but not in all places).
>
>>
>>
>> >>
>> >> I have no trouble finding #asClass senders, implementors, etc.
>> >>
>> >> What do you want to find?
>> >>
>> >> > self class environment classNamed: #Array
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Too much typing :)
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > From the other side we all agree that #asClass is super handy method.
>> >> > And we
>> >> > can fix it to respect sender environment using thisContext. It will
>> >> > affects
>> >> > performance but with our super powerful metalinks it can be easily
>> >> > cached
>> >> > (#asMethodConst is implemented that way).
>> >> > So we can make environment completely transparent for users.
>> >> >
>> >> > Best regards,
>> >> > Denis
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> For Modules, we made progress and got bitten by many issues and
>> >> >> teaching
>> >> >> load.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Stef
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Clément Bera
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Hernán Morales Durand
>> >> >> >  wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Hi Clément,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> First time I read about modules in Pharo.
>> >> >> >> What is a module exactly?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> What's the problem to solve?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > It's similar to namespaces with some different, arguably better,
>> >> >> > features.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Honestly I am not the expert on it so I would like some one else
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > answer.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Among other things, it solves the problem of having 2 classes with
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > same
>> >> >> > name (avoiding the prefixes we have like in C). But reportedly
>> >> >> > that's
>> >> >> > just a
>> >> >> > side-effect and not the main problem to solve.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Cheers,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Hernán
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 2018-02-10 9:47 GMT-03:00 Clément Bera :
>> >> >> >> > Hi,
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > In short, everything that is not namespace/module compatible
>> >> >> >> > will
>> >> >> >> > be
>> >> >> >> > deprecated/changed/removed in the future, so it is not
>> >> >> >> > recommended
>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> > use
>> >> >> >> > it.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
>> >> >> >> > b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
>> >> >> >> > => Ok-ish, note that you may need to change 'Smalltalk globals'
>> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> > namespace/module when support for those will be added since
>> >> >> >> > Array
>> >> >> >> > will
>> >> >> >> > be in
>> >> >> >> > a module.
>> >> >> >> > Maybe you want instead to use instead:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > c) self class environment at: #Array
>> >> >> >> > => this will work in the future if your code is a class which
>> >> >> >> 

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Denis Kudriashov]

2018-02-11 20:36 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand :

> 2018-02-11 16:10 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov :
> > Hi Hernan.
> >
> > 2018-02-11 19:57 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand <
> hernan.mora...@gmail.com>:
> >>
> >> Hi Denis
> >>
> >> 2018-02-10 15:18 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov :
> >> >
> >> > 2018-02-10 20:59 GMT+03:00 Stephane Ducasse  >:
> >> >>
> >> >> Please to not use an unary on Symbol
> >> >> Dispatch on something.
> >> >>
> >> >> self class environment at: #Array
> >> >> is the best
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > We should not use collection API for reflection calls. It makes them
> >> > very
> >> > difficult to find. Let's use explicit names like:
> >> >
> >>
> >> Sorry I do not see it.
> >>
> >> The Collection API is beautiful, why couldn't be used for reflection?
> >
> >
> > We have around 3000 senders of #at: message in the image. Do you think
> it is
> > easy to filter reflective calls?
> >
>
> I still don't understand your use case, nor how the #at: is related
> with the #asClass issue.
>
> Do you mean **further** filtering for relflective sends?
>
> Does this affects common-usage beyond Browser development?
>

The Stef proposal was that we should never use #asClass in the code. It is
fine for scripting but not for the domain code by many reasons which were
discussed here and at the past.

But I only commented the proposed replacement:

self class environment at: #Object


If you do not like it, it is different story. I just described problem with
#at: message:

We already replaced many #asClass users with this code. And now it is quite
difficult to find such places. They all hidden inside 3000 senders of #at:.
If we will use #classNamed: instead of #at: then simple senders query will
easily detect all reflective calls.
(we probably already use it but not in all places).


>
> >>
> >> I have no trouble finding #asClass senders, implementors, etc.
> >>
> >> What do you want to find?
> >>
> >> > self class environment classNamed: #Array
> >> >
> >>
> >> Too much typing :)
> >>
> >> >
> >> > From the other side we all agree that #asClass is super handy method.
> >> > And we
> >> > can fix it to respect sender environment using thisContext. It will
> >> > affects
> >> > performance but with our super powerful metalinks it can be easily
> >> > cached
> >> > (#asMethodConst is implemented that way).
> >> > So we can make environment completely transparent for users.
> >> >
> >> > Best regards,
> >> > Denis
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> For Modules, we made progress and got bitten by many issues and
> >> >> teaching
> >> >> load.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Stef
> >> >>
> >> >> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Clément Bera <
> bera.clem...@gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Hernán Morales Durand
> >> >> >  wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Hi Clément,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> First time I read about modules in Pharo.
> >> >> >> What is a module exactly?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> What's the problem to solve?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It's similar to namespaces with some different, arguably better,
> >> >> > features.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Honestly I am not the expert on it so I would like some one else to
> >> >> > answer.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Among other things, it solves the problem of having 2 classes with
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > same
> >> >> > name (avoiding the prefixes we have like in C). But reportedly
> that's
> >> >> > just a
> >> >> > side-effect and not the main problem to solve.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Cheers,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Hernán
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> 2018-02-10 9:47 GMT-03:00 Clément Bera :
> >> >> >> > Hi,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > In short, everything that is not namespace/module compatible
> will
> >> >> >> > be
> >> >> >> > deprecated/changed/removed in the future, so it is not
> recommended
> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> > use
> >> >> >> > it.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
> >> >> >> > b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
> >> >> >> > => Ok-ish, note that you may need to change 'Smalltalk globals'
> >> >> >> > the
> >> >> >> > namespace/module when support for those will be added since
> Array
> >> >> >> > will
> >> >> >> > be in
> >> >> >> > a module.
> >> >> >> > Maybe you want instead to use instead:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > c) self class environment at: #Array
> >> >> >> > => this will work in the future if your code is a class which
> >> >> >> > environment/namespace/module includes the Array class you would
> >> >> >> > expect
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > a.1) #Array asClass
> >> >> >> > b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
> >> >> >> > b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
> >> >> >> > => In which namespace/module are you looking for #Array ? In the
> >> >> >> > future
> >> >> >> > this
> >> >> >> > may be removed, alternatively it will work only for globals but
> >> >> >> > not
> >> >> >> > 

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Hernán Morales Durand]

2018-02-11 16:10 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov :
> Hi Hernan.
>
> 2018-02-11 19:57 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand :
>>
>> Hi Denis
>>
>> 2018-02-10 15:18 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov :
>> >
>> > 2018-02-10 20:59 GMT+03:00 Stephane Ducasse :
>> >>
>> >> Please to not use an unary on Symbol
>> >> Dispatch on something.
>> >>
>> >> self class environment at: #Array
>> >> is the best
>> >
>> >
>> > We should not use collection API for reflection calls. It makes them
>> > very
>> > difficult to find. Let's use explicit names like:
>> >
>>
>> Sorry I do not see it.
>>
>> The Collection API is beautiful, why couldn't be used for reflection?
>
>
> We have around 3000 senders of #at: message in the image. Do you think it is
> easy to filter reflective calls?
>

I still don't understand your use case, nor how the #at: is related
with the #asClass issue.

Do you mean **further** filtering for relflective sends?

Does this affects common-usage beyond Browser development?

>>
>> I have no trouble finding #asClass senders, implementors, etc.
>>
>> What do you want to find?
>>
>> > self class environment classNamed: #Array
>> >
>>
>> Too much typing :)
>>
>> >
>> > From the other side we all agree that #asClass is super handy method.
>> > And we
>> > can fix it to respect sender environment using thisContext. It will
>> > affects
>> > performance but with our super powerful metalinks it can be easily
>> > cached
>> > (#asMethodConst is implemented that way).
>> > So we can make environment completely transparent for users.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> > Denis
>> >
>> >>
>> >> For Modules, we made progress and got bitten by many issues and
>> >> teaching
>> >> load.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Stef
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Clément Bera 
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Hernán Morales Durand
>> >> >  wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hi Clément,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> First time I read about modules in Pharo.
>> >> >> What is a module exactly?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What's the problem to solve?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > It's similar to namespaces with some different, arguably better,
>> >> > features.
>> >> >
>> >> > Honestly I am not the expert on it so I would like some one else to
>> >> > answer.
>> >> >
>> >> > Among other things, it solves the problem of having 2 classes with
>> >> > the
>> >> > same
>> >> > name (avoiding the prefixes we have like in C). But reportedly that's
>> >> > just a
>> >> > side-effect and not the main problem to solve.
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Cheers,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hernán
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2018-02-10 9:47 GMT-03:00 Clément Bera :
>> >> >> > Hi,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > In short, everything that is not namespace/module compatible will
>> >> >> > be
>> >> >> > deprecated/changed/removed in the future, so it is not recommended
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > use
>> >> >> > it.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
>> >> >> > b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
>> >> >> > => Ok-ish, note that you may need to change 'Smalltalk globals'
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > namespace/module when support for those will be added since Array
>> >> >> > will
>> >> >> > be in
>> >> >> > a module.
>> >> >> > Maybe you want instead to use instead:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > c) self class environment at: #Array
>> >> >> > => this will work in the future if your code is a class which
>> >> >> > environment/namespace/module includes the Array class you would
>> >> >> > expect
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > a.1) #Array asClass
>> >> >> > b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
>> >> >> > b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
>> >> >> > => In which namespace/module are you looking for #Array ? In the
>> >> >> > future
>> >> >> > this
>> >> >> > may be removed, alternatively it will work only for globals but
>> >> >> > not
>> >> >> > globals
>> >> >> > inside namespace/module which won't work since Array will be in a
>> >> >> > module.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Peter Uhnák 
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Hi,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> what is the canonical way to get a class from a symbol?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> a) Converting symbol into class via string protocol
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> a.1) #Array asClass
>> >> >> >> I use this the most, because it is easy, uses unary selector, and
>> >> >> >> so
>> >> >> >> far
>> >> >> >> I've never ran into any issues. But apparently it is not good --
>> >> >> >> why?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> b) Retriving the class by key from the system dictionary
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> c) something else entirely?
>> >> >> >>

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Denis Kudriashov]

Hi Hernan.

2018-02-11 19:57 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand :

> Hi Denis
>
> 2018-02-10 15:18 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov :
> >
> > 2018-02-10 20:59 GMT+03:00 Stephane Ducasse :
> >>
> >> Please to not use an unary on Symbol
> >> Dispatch on something.
> >>
> >> self class environment at: #Array
> >> is the best
> >
> >
> > We should not use collection API for reflection calls. It makes them very
> > difficult to find. Let's use explicit names like:
> >
>
> Sorry I do not see it.
>
> The Collection API is beautiful, why couldn't be used for reflection?
>

We have around 3000 senders of #at: message in the image. Do you think it
is easy to filter reflective calls?


> I have no trouble finding #asClass senders, implementors, etc.
>
> What do you want to find?
>
> > self class environment classNamed: #Array
> >
>
> Too much typing :)
>
> >
> > From the other side we all agree that #asClass is super handy method.
> And we
> > can fix it to respect sender environment using thisContext. It will
> affects
> > performance but with our super powerful metalinks it can be easily cached
> > (#asMethodConst is implemented that way).
> > So we can make environment completely transparent for users.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Denis
> >
> >>
> >> For Modules, we made progress and got bitten by many issues and teaching
> >> load.
> >>
> >>
> >> Stef
> >>
> >> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Clément Bera 
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Hernán Morales Durand
> >> >  wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi Clément,
> >> >>
> >> >> First time I read about modules in Pharo.
> >> >> What is a module exactly?
> >> >>
> >> >> What's the problem to solve?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > It's similar to namespaces with some different, arguably better,
> >> > features.
> >> >
> >> > Honestly I am not the expert on it so I would like some one else to
> >> > answer.
> >> >
> >> > Among other things, it solves the problem of having 2 classes with the
> >> > same
> >> > name (avoiding the prefixes we have like in C). But reportedly that's
> >> > just a
> >> > side-effect and not the main problem to solve.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheers,
> >> >>
> >> >> Hernán
> >> >>
> >> >> 2018-02-10 9:47 GMT-03:00 Clément Bera :
> >> >> > Hi,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > In short, everything that is not namespace/module compatible will
> be
> >> >> > deprecated/changed/removed in the future, so it is not recommended
> to
> >> >> > use
> >> >> > it.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
> >> >> > b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
> >> >> > => Ok-ish, note that you may need to change 'Smalltalk globals' the
> >> >> > namespace/module when support for those will be added since Array
> >> >> > will
> >> >> > be in
> >> >> > a module.
> >> >> > Maybe you want instead to use instead:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > c) self class environment at: #Array
> >> >> > => this will work in the future if your code is a class which
> >> >> > environment/namespace/module includes the Array class you would
> >> >> > expect
> >> >> >
> >> >> > a.1) #Array asClass
> >> >> > b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
> >> >> > b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
> >> >> > => In which namespace/module are you looking for #Array ? In the
> >> >> > future
> >> >> > this
> >> >> > may be removed, alternatively it will work only for globals but not
> >> >> > globals
> >> >> > inside namespace/module which won't work since Array will be in a
> >> >> > module.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Peter Uhnák 
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Hi,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> what is the canonical way to get a class from a symbol?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> a) Converting symbol into class via string protocol
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> a.1) #Array asClass
> >> >> >> I use this the most, because it is easy, uses unary selector, and
> so
> >> >> >> far
> >> >> >> I've never ran into any issues. But apparently it is not good --
> >> >> >> why?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> b) Retriving the class by key from the system dictionary
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> c) something else entirely?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I get that using #asClass wouldn't work if there was a different
> >> >> >> environment, however I don't even know in what situation there
> could
> >> >> >> be
> >> >> >> a
> >> >> >> different environment, so I cannot assert how problematic it is or
> >> >> >> isn't.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Thanks,
> >> >> >> Peter
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > Clément Béra
> >> >> > Pharo consortium engineer
> >> >> > https://clementbera.wordpress.com/
> >> >> > Bâtiment B 40, 

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Stephane Ducasse]

Agreed!
In that case denis we should add a bug entry and clean the complete image.

And no asClass sucks and we do not want to use thisContext.
Why can we do simple thing and avoid to add more accidental complexity.

Stef

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 7:18 PM, Denis Kudriashov  wrote:
>
> 2018-02-10 20:59 GMT+03:00 Stephane Ducasse :
>>
>> Please to not use an unary on Symbol
>> Dispatch on something.
>>
>> self class environment at: #Array
>> is the best
>
>
> We should not use collection API for reflection calls. It makes them very
> difficult to find. Let's use explicit names like:
>
> self class environment classNamed: #Array
>
>
> From the other side we all agree that #asClass is super handy method. And we
> can fix it to respect sender environment using thisContext. It will affects
> performance but with our super powerful metalinks it can be easily cached
> (#asMethodConst is implemented that way).
> So we can make environment completely transparent for users.
>
> Best regards,
> Denis
>
>>
>> For Modules, we made progress and got bitten by many issues and teaching
>> load.
>>
>>
>> Stef
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Clément Bera 
>> wrote:
>> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Hernán Morales Durand
>> >  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi Clément,
>> >>
>> >> First time I read about modules in Pharo.
>> >> What is a module exactly?
>> >>
>> >> What's the problem to solve?
>> >
>> >
>> > It's similar to namespaces with some different, arguably better,
>> > features.
>> >
>> > Honestly I am not the expert on it so I would like some one else to
>> > answer.
>> >
>> > Among other things, it solves the problem of having 2 classes with the
>> > same
>> > name (avoiding the prefixes we have like in C). But reportedly that's
>> > just a
>> > side-effect and not the main problem to solve.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> Hernán
>> >>
>> >> 2018-02-10 9:47 GMT-03:00 Clément Bera :
>> >> > Hi,
>> >> >
>> >> > In short, everything that is not namespace/module compatible will be
>> >> > deprecated/changed/removed in the future, so it is not recommended to
>> >> > use
>> >> > it.
>> >> >
>> >> > a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
>> >> > b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
>> >> > => Ok-ish, note that you may need to change 'Smalltalk globals' the
>> >> > namespace/module when support for those will be added since Array
>> >> > will
>> >> > be in
>> >> > a module.
>> >> > Maybe you want instead to use instead:
>> >> >
>> >> > c) self class environment at: #Array
>> >> > => this will work in the future if your code is a class which
>> >> > environment/namespace/module includes the Array class you would
>> >> > expect
>> >> >
>> >> > a.1) #Array asClass
>> >> > b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
>> >> > b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
>> >> > => In which namespace/module are you looking for #Array ? In the
>> >> > future
>> >> > this
>> >> > may be removed, alternatively it will work only for globals but not
>> >> > globals
>> >> > inside namespace/module which won't work since Array will be in a
>> >> > module.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Peter Uhnák 
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hi,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> what is the canonical way to get a class from a symbol?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> a) Converting symbol into class via string protocol
>> >> >>
>> >> >> a.1) #Array asClass
>> >> >> I use this the most, because it is easy, uses unary selector, and so
>> >> >> far
>> >> >> I've never ran into any issues. But apparently it is not good --
>> >> >> why?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
>> >> >>
>> >> >> b) Retriving the class by key from the system dictionary
>> >> >>
>> >> >> b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
>> >> >>
>> >> >> b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
>> >> >>
>> >> >> b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
>> >> >>
>> >> >> c) something else entirely?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I get that using #asClass wouldn't work if there was a different
>> >> >> environment, however I don't even know in what situation there could
>> >> >> be
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> different environment, so I cannot assert how problematic it is or
>> >> >> isn't.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thanks,
>> >> >> Peter
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Clément Béra
>> >> > Pharo consortium engineer
>> >> > https://clementbera.wordpress.com/
>> >> > Bâtiment B 40, avenue Halley 59650 Villeneuve d'Ascq
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Clément Béra
>> > Pharo consortium engineer
>> > https://clementbera.wordpress.com/
>> > Bâtiment B 40, avenue Halley 59650 Villeneuve d'Ascq
>>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Denis Kudriashov]

2018-02-10 20:59 GMT+03:00 Stephane Ducasse :

> Please to not use an unary on Symbol
> Dispatch on something.
>
> self class environment at: #Array
> is the best
>

We should not use collection API for reflection calls. It makes them very
difficult to find. Let's use explicit names like:

self class environment classNamed: #Array


>From the other side we all agree that #asClass is super handy method. And
we can fix it to respect sender environment using thisContext. It will
affects performance but with our super powerful metalinks it can be easily
cached (#asMethodConst is implemented that way).
So we can make environment completely transparent for users.

Best regards,
Denis


> For Modules, we made progress and got bitten by many issues and teaching
> load.
>
>
> Stef
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Clément Bera 
> wrote:
> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Hernán Morales Durand
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Clément,
> >>
> >> First time I read about modules in Pharo.
> >> What is a module exactly?
> >>
> >> What's the problem to solve?
> >
> >
> > It's similar to namespaces with some different, arguably better,
> features.
> >
> > Honestly I am not the expert on it so I would like some one else to
> answer.
> >
> > Among other things, it solves the problem of having 2 classes with the
> same
> > name (avoiding the prefixes we have like in C). But reportedly that's
> just a
> > side-effect and not the main problem to solve.
> >
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Hernán
> >>
> >> 2018-02-10 9:47 GMT-03:00 Clément Bera :
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > In short, everything that is not namespace/module compatible will be
> >> > deprecated/changed/removed in the future, so it is not recommended to
> >> > use
> >> > it.
> >> >
> >> > a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
> >> > b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
> >> > => Ok-ish, note that you may need to change 'Smalltalk globals' the
> >> > namespace/module when support for those will be added since Array will
> >> > be in
> >> > a module.
> >> > Maybe you want instead to use instead:
> >> >
> >> > c) self class environment at: #Array
> >> > => this will work in the future if your code is a class which
> >> > environment/namespace/module includes the Array class you would expect
> >> >
> >> > a.1) #Array asClass
> >> > b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
> >> > b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
> >> > => In which namespace/module are you looking for #Array ? In the
> future
> >> > this
> >> > may be removed, alternatively it will work only for globals but not
> >> > globals
> >> > inside namespace/module which won't work since Array will be in a
> >> > module.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Peter Uhnák 
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi,
> >> >>
> >> >> what is the canonical way to get a class from a symbol?
> >> >>
> >> >> a) Converting symbol into class via string protocol
> >> >>
> >> >> a.1) #Array asClass
> >> >> I use this the most, because it is easy, uses unary selector, and so
> >> >> far
> >> >> I've never ran into any issues. But apparently it is not good -- why?
> >> >>
> >> >> a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
> >> >>
> >> >> b) Retriving the class by key from the system dictionary
> >> >>
> >> >> b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
> >> >>
> >> >> b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
> >> >>
> >> >> b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
> >> >>
> >> >> c) something else entirely?
> >> >>
> >> >> I get that using #asClass wouldn't work if there was a different
> >> >> environment, however I don't even know in what situation there could
> be
> >> >> a
> >> >> different environment, so I cannot assert how problematic it is or
> >> >> isn't.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks,
> >> >> Peter
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Clément Béra
> >> > Pharo consortium engineer
> >> > https://clementbera.wordpress.com/
> >> > Bâtiment B 40, avenue Halley 59650 Villeneuve d'Ascq
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Clément Béra
> > Pharo consortium engineer
> > https://clementbera.wordpress.com/
> > Bâtiment B 40, avenue Halley 59650 Villeneuve d'Ascq
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Stephane Ducasse]

Please to not use an unary on Symbol
Dispatch on something.

self class environment at: #Array
is the best

For Modules, we made progress and got bitten by many issues and teaching load.


Stef

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Clément Bera  wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Hernán Morales Durand
>  wrote:
>>
>> Hi Clément,
>>
>> First time I read about modules in Pharo.
>> What is a module exactly?
>>
>> What's the problem to solve?
>
>
> It's similar to namespaces with some different, arguably better, features.
>
> Honestly I am not the expert on it so I would like some one else to answer.
>
> Among other things, it solves the problem of having 2 classes with the same
> name (avoiding the prefixes we have like in C). But reportedly that's just a
> side-effect and not the main problem to solve.
>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Hernán
>>
>> 2018-02-10 9:47 GMT-03:00 Clément Bera :
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > In short, everything that is not namespace/module compatible will be
>> > deprecated/changed/removed in the future, so it is not recommended to
>> > use
>> > it.
>> >
>> > a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
>> > b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
>> > => Ok-ish, note that you may need to change 'Smalltalk globals' the
>> > namespace/module when support for those will be added since Array will
>> > be in
>> > a module.
>> > Maybe you want instead to use instead:
>> >
>> > c) self class environment at: #Array
>> > => this will work in the future if your code is a class which
>> > environment/namespace/module includes the Array class you would expect
>> >
>> > a.1) #Array asClass
>> > b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
>> > b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
>> > => In which namespace/module are you looking for #Array ? In the future
>> > this
>> > may be removed, alternatively it will work only for globals but not
>> > globals
>> > inside namespace/module which won't work since Array will be in a
>> > module.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Peter Uhnák  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> what is the canonical way to get a class from a symbol?
>> >>
>> >> a) Converting symbol into class via string protocol
>> >>
>> >> a.1) #Array asClass
>> >> I use this the most, because it is easy, uses unary selector, and so
>> >> far
>> >> I've never ran into any issues. But apparently it is not good -- why?
>> >>
>> >> a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
>> >>
>> >> b) Retriving the class by key from the system dictionary
>> >>
>> >> b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
>> >>
>> >> b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
>> >>
>> >> b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
>> >>
>> >> c) something else entirely?
>> >>
>> >> I get that using #asClass wouldn't work if there was a different
>> >> environment, however I don't even know in what situation there could be
>> >> a
>> >> different environment, so I cannot assert how problematic it is or
>> >> isn't.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Peter
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Clément Béra
>> > Pharo consortium engineer
>> > https://clementbera.wordpress.com/
>> > Bâtiment B 40, avenue Halley 59650 Villeneuve d'Ascq
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Clément Béra
> Pharo consortium engineer
> https://clementbera.wordpress.com/
> Bâtiment B 40, avenue Halley 59650 Villeneuve d'Ascq

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Clément Bera]

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Hernán Morales Durand <
hernan.mora...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Clément,
>
> First time I read about modules in Pharo.
> What is a module exactly?

What's the problem to solve?
>

It's similar to namespaces with some different, arguably better, features.

Honestly I am not the expert on it so I would like some one else to answer.

Among other things, it solves the problem of having 2 classes with the same
name (avoiding the prefixes we have like in C). But reportedly that's just
a side-effect and not the main problem to solve.


> Cheers,
>
> Hernán
>
> 2018-02-10 9:47 GMT-03:00 Clément Bera :
> > Hi,
> >
> > In short, everything that is not namespace/module compatible will be
> > deprecated/changed/removed in the future, so it is not recommended to use
> > it.
> >
> > a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
> > b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
> > => Ok-ish, note that you may need to change 'Smalltalk globals' the
> > namespace/module when support for those will be added since Array will
> be in
> > a module.
> > Maybe you want instead to use instead:
> >
> > c) self class environment at: #Array
> > => this will work in the future if your code is a class which
> > environment/namespace/module includes the Array class you would expect
> >
> > a.1) #Array asClass
> > b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
> > b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
> > => In which namespace/module are you looking for #Array ? In the future
> this
> > may be removed, alternatively it will work only for globals but not
> globals
> > inside namespace/module which won't work since Array will be in a module.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Peter Uhnák  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> what is the canonical way to get a class from a symbol?
> >>
> >> a) Converting symbol into class via string protocol
> >>
> >> a.1) #Array asClass
> >> I use this the most, because it is easy, uses unary selector, and so far
> >> I've never ran into any issues. But apparently it is not good -- why?
> >>
> >> a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
> >>
> >> b) Retriving the class by key from the system dictionary
> >>
> >> b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
> >>
> >> b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
> >>
> >> b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
> >>
> >> c) something else entirely?
> >>
> >> I get that using #asClass wouldn't work if there was a different
> >> environment, however I don't even know in what situation there could be
> a
> >> different environment, so I cannot assert how problematic it is or
> isn't.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Clément Béra
> > Pharo consortium engineer
> > https://clementbera.wordpress.com/
> > Bâtiment B 40, avenue Halley 59650 Villeneuve d'Ascq
>
>


-- 
Clément Béra
Pharo consortium engineer
https://clementbera.wordpress.com/
Bâtiment B 40, avenue Halley 59650 Villeneuve d'Ascq

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Hernán Morales Durand]

Hi Clément,

First time I read about modules in Pharo.
What is a module exactly?
What's the problem to solve?

Cheers,

Hernán

2018-02-10 9:47 GMT-03:00 Clément Bera :
> Hi,
>
> In short, everything that is not namespace/module compatible will be
> deprecated/changed/removed in the future, so it is not recommended to use
> it.
>
> a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
> b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
> => Ok-ish, note that you may need to change 'Smalltalk globals' the
> namespace/module when support for those will be added since Array will be in
> a module.
> Maybe you want instead to use instead:
>
> c) self class environment at: #Array
> => this will work in the future if your code is a class which
> environment/namespace/module includes the Array class you would expect
>
> a.1) #Array asClass
> b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
> b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
> => In which namespace/module are you looking for #Array ? In the future this
> may be removed, alternatively it will work only for globals but not globals
> inside namespace/module which won't work since Array will be in a module.
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Peter Uhnák  wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> what is the canonical way to get a class from a symbol?
>>
>> a) Converting symbol into class via string protocol
>>
>> a.1) #Array asClass
>> I use this the most, because it is easy, uses unary selector, and so far
>> I've never ran into any issues. But apparently it is not good -- why?
>>
>> a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
>>
>> b) Retriving the class by key from the system dictionary
>>
>> b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
>>
>> b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
>>
>> b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
>>
>> c) something else entirely?
>>
>> I get that using #asClass wouldn't work if there was a different
>> environment, however I don't even know in what situation there could be a
>> different environment, so I cannot assert how problematic it is or isn't.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Peter
>
>
>
>
> --
> Clément Béra
> Pharo consortium engineer
> https://clementbera.wordpress.com/
> Bâtiment B 40, avenue Halley 59650 Villeneuve d'Ascq

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Esteban A. Maringolo]

2018-02-10 11:33 GMT-03:00 Peter Uhnák :
>> c) self class environment at: #Array
>> => this will work in the future if your code is a class which
>> environment/namespace/module includes the Array class you would expect
>
> Let's say that namespaces are added; Array is now in the module
> Collections.Array
> My code is now in module MyProject.MyWhatever
>
> I would imagine that in such situation I would need to change the code
> anyway, because it would try to look up MyProject.Array, no?
>
> So if the argument for asClass is based on future addition of modules, then
> I will need to manually change it anyway regardless of what approach I used,
> because I don't know in which namespace the class will end up.

If it is as in VisualWorks, it creates references, and such references
can be resolved dynamically.

If the reference specifies a namespace, then something such as
Core.OrderedCollection is resolved directly looking at the referenced
namespace, otherwise it looks at the same namespace of the class or
any namespace imported by the class definition.

With the added complexity of "nested" namespaces (Smalltalk.Core,
Smalltalk.Kernel, etc), and namespaces can also import other
namespaces, e.g.:
```
Smalltalk defineNameSpace: #Seaside
  private: false
  imports: '
private Smalltalk.*
private SUnit.*
private Grease.*
  '
  category: ''
```

I think that the explicit namespacing approach adds more complexity
than anything else, I'd use a more dynamic approach, like using
modules.

Regards,


Esteban A. Maringolo

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Clément Bera]

Modules can import other modules to be able to use their classes directly.

Anyway, this is theory, there is no module implementation currently.

But the idea in the recent versions of Pharo (5-6-7) was to start moving
away from things like (Smalltalk at: #className) or (#className asClass)
since it does not work with the module system that is going to be
introduced.


On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 3:33 PM, Peter Uhnák  wrote:

> > c) self class environment at: #Array
> > => this will work in the future if your code is a class which
> environment/namespace/module includes the Array class you would expect
>
> Let's say that namespaces are added; Array is now in the module
> Collections.Array
> My code is now in module MyProject.MyWhatever
>
> I would imagine that in such situation I would need to change the code
> anyway, because it would try to look up MyProject.Array, no?
>
> So if the argument for asClass is based on future addition of modules,
> then I will need to manually change it anyway regardless of what approach I
> used, because I don't know in which namespace the class will end up.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> Thanks,
> Peter
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 1:47 PM, Clément Bera 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> In short, everything that is not namespace/module compatible will be
>> deprecated/changed/removed in the future, so it is not recommended to use
>> it.
>>
>> a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
>> b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
>> => Ok-ish, note that you may need to change 'Smalltalk globals' the
>> namespace/module when support for those will be added since Array will be
>> in a module.
>> Maybe you want instead to use instead:
>>
>> c) self class environment at: #Array
>> => this will work in the future if your code is a class which
>> environment/namespace/module includes the Array class you would expect
>>
>> a.1) #Array asClass
>> b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
>> b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
>> => In which namespace/module are you looking for #Array ? In the future
>> this may be removed, alternatively it will work only for globals but not
>> globals inside namespace/module which won't work since Array will be in a
>> module.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Peter Uhnák  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> what is the canonical way to get a class from a symbol?
>>>
>>> a) Converting symbol into class via string protocol
>>>
>>> a.1) #Array asClass
>>> I use this the most, because it is easy, uses unary selector, and so far
>>> I've never ran into any issues. But apparently it is not good -- why?
>>>
>>> a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
>>>
>>> b) Retriving the class by key from the system dictionary
>>>
>>> b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
>>>
>>> b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
>>>
>>> b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
>>>
>>> c) something else entirely?
>>>
>>> I get that using #asClass wouldn't work if there was a different
>>> environment, however I don't even know in what situation there could be a
>>> different environment, so I cannot assert how problematic it is or isn't.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Peter
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Clément Béra
>> Pharo consortium engineer
>> https://clementbera.wordpress.com/
>> Bâtiment B 40, avenue Halley 59650
>> Villeneuve
>> d
>> 
>> 'Ascq
>> 
>>
>
>


-- 
Clément Béra
Pharo consortium engineer
https://clementbera.wordpress.com/
Bâtiment B 40, avenue Halley 59650 Villeneuve d'Ascq

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Peter Uhnák]

 > c) self class environment at: #Array
> => this will work in the future if your code is a class which
environment/namespace/module includes the Array class you would expect

Let's say that namespaces are added; Array is now in the module
Collections.Array
My code is now in module MyProject.MyWhatever

I would imagine that in such situation I would need to change the code
anyway, because it would try to look up MyProject.Array, no?

So if the argument for asClass is based on future addition of modules, then
I will need to manually change it anyway regardless of what approach I
used, because I don't know in which namespace the class will end up.

Am I missing something?

Thanks,
Peter


On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 1:47 PM, Clément Bera 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> In short, everything that is not namespace/module compatible will be
> deprecated/changed/removed in the future, so it is not recommended to use
> it.
>
> a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
> b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
> => Ok-ish, note that you may need to change 'Smalltalk globals' the
> namespace/module when support for those will be added since Array will be
> in a module.
> Maybe you want instead to use instead:
>
> c) self class environment at: #Array
> => this will work in the future if your code is a class which
> environment/namespace/module includes the Array class you would expect
>
> a.1) #Array asClass
> b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
> b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
> => In which namespace/module are you looking for #Array ? In the future
> this may be removed, alternatively it will work only for globals but not
> globals inside namespace/module which won't work since Array will be in a
> module.
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Peter Uhnák  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> what is the canonical way to get a class from a symbol?
>>
>> a) Converting symbol into class via string protocol
>>
>> a.1) #Array asClass
>> I use this the most, because it is easy, uses unary selector, and so far
>> I've never ran into any issues. But apparently it is not good -- why?
>>
>> a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
>>
>> b) Retriving the class by key from the system dictionary
>>
>> b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
>>
>> b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
>>
>> b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
>>
>> c) something else entirely?
>>
>> I get that using #asClass wouldn't work if there was a different
>> environment, however I don't even know in what situation there could be a
>> different environment, so I cannot assert how problematic it is or isn't.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Peter
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Clément Béra
> Pharo consortium engineer
> https://clementbera.wordpress.com/
> Bâtiment B 40, avenue Halley 59650
> Villeneuve
> d
> 
> 'Ascq
> 
>

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[Clément Bera]

Hi,

In short, everything that is not namespace/module compatible will be
deprecated/changed/removed in the future, so it is not recommended to use
it.

a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
=> Ok-ish, note that you may need to change 'Smalltalk globals' the
namespace/module when support for those will be added since Array will be
in a module.
Maybe you want instead to use instead:

c) self class environment at: #Array
=> this will work in the future if your code is a class which
environment/namespace/module includes the Array class you would expect

a.1) #Array asClass
b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
=> In which namespace/module are you looking for #Array ? In the future
this may be removed, alternatively it will work only for globals but not
globals inside namespace/module which won't work since Array will be in a
module.


On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Peter Uhnák  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> what is the canonical way to get a class from a symbol?
>
> a) Converting symbol into class via string protocol
>
> a.1) #Array asClass
> I use this the most, because it is easy, uses unary selector, and so far
> I've never ran into any issues. But apparently it is not good -- why?
>
> a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
>
> b) Retriving the class by key from the system dictionary
>
> b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
>
> b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
>
> b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
>
> c) something else entirely?
>
> I get that using #asClass wouldn't work if there was a different
> environment, however I don't even know in what situation there could be a
> different environment, so I cannot assert how problematic it is or isn't.
>
> Thanks,
> Peter
>



-- 
Clément Béra
Pharo consortium engineer
https://clementbera.wordpress.com/
Bâtiment B 40, avenue Halley 59650 Villeneuve d'Ascq

Re: [Pharo-users] canonical way to convert Symbol into Class (retrieve class by its name)

[jtuc...@objektfabrik.de]

Peter,

I have no answer for you as I am not a Pharo expert. It may be part of 
an answer to your question "why?", however.


I think most if not all of the alternatives you mention are equally good 
as long as you assume there is only one place to look for Classes.
As soon as you introduce namespaces to the equation, things get more 
complicated. Depending on the logic of new implementations of these 
lookup methods, the results may vary in such an environment.


just my 2 cents

Joachim


Am 10.02.18 um 12:57 schrieb Peter Uhnák:

Hi,

what is the canonical way to get a class from a symbol?

a) Converting symbol into class via string protocol

a.1) #Array asClass
I use this the most, because it is easy, uses unary selector, and so 
far I've never ran into any issues. But apparently it is not good -- why?


a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals

b) Retriving the class by key from the system dictionary

b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array

b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array

b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array

c) something else entirely?

I get that using #asClass wouldn't work if there was a different 
environment, however I don't even know in what situation there could 
be a different environment, so I cannot assert how problematic it is 
or isn't.


Thanks,
Peter



--
---
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