[Phono-L] Edison stop survey, and reply to Oxidized bronze or copper flashing D.D. crank?
Many thanks, Peter, for this offer to post the photos. Will follow through and email photos directly to you shortly. Best regards, Andy Baron On Jun 22, 2007, at 8:28 AM, Peter Fraser wrote: can you please post some pictures, or send some to me so that i can post them for folks to review? -- Peter pjfra...@alamedanet.net On Jun 21, 2007, at 10:28 PM, Andrew Baron wrote: Thanks, George for this insight. Given that, and the reasonably good fit to the relatively small A-200 cabinet, this does seem a likely origin of this particular crank. Do you think you could shed a light on the question I've posted a couple of times over the past few days, regarding whether the user- adjustable (semi-automatic) stop on my ser. no. 1429 A-250 was the first type of stop scheme that Edison employed on the new Disc Phonograph? In this arrangement, there's a small round knob on the start lever, which can also serve as a manual stop lever. Any idea of when that type of stop was discontinued in favor of the more familiar type with the rigid stop trip lever on the lift post? I'd like to informally survey any owners of these early Edison Disc Phonographs that have this unusual early style stop, to find out the model and serial numbers of the machines that have it. To show graphically what I'm referring to, I can email a photo of this odd lever arrangement to anyone who might like to help. I'm hoping to use this detail and possibly others to learn approximately when my early A-250 was built. Best regards, Andy On Jun 21, 2007, at 7:10 PM, gpaul2...@aol.com wrote: Andy, The A-150 Disc Phonograph was regularly supplied with an oxidized bronze finish on its metal parts. George Paul ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Edison stop survey, and reply to Oxidized bronze or copper flashing D.D. crank?
Hi George and thanks for taking the time to reply. I realize that there isn't much information documented, and this is what I'm running up against as much as anything else. Neither of my two machines have paper notices on the cabinet bottoms, but the later one has a data plate with the newest patent date of Mar-11-13, wihle the earlier machine has the newest patent date of 8-26-11. The 6 in 26 is hard to make out, and might be a 3, 8 or 9. Do you have a sense of how soon the patent dates on these model / serial number plates were updated, once a new patent was issued? Peter Fraser has graciously offered to post photos of the early levers, so I've prepared some composited images of the differing details of both of my A-250's. My hope is that some of the Edison enthusiasts out there are familiar with this start / stop lever arrangement. If someone else has a machine with these odd levers, I'd love to know the serial number, so I can get a sense of how late into the production it was used. What piqued my curiosity to begin with was that I had never seen these levers before. I don't know if that's because I haven't gotten around to the shows and big collections, or because they are relatively little known, even by other collectors. I bought my first D.D. machine in 1976, and have had many over the years, but this is the first I've seen with this odd detail. Best, Andy On Jun 22, 2007, at 7:55 AM, gpaul2...@aol.com wrote: Andy, Unfortunately, without some factory documentation of each model's serial numbers within a given month, exact dating for A-series Edison Disc Phonographs is quite difficult.? I've seen two types of paper license notices glued to the bottoms of these cabinets.? The earlier has no date at the bottom, and the later one has an April 1914 date.? Keep in mind that very few Edison Disc Phonographs were available to the public until Aug/Sept 1913, and the fire of Dec. 1914 put an end to most A-series production.? That gives roughly a 15-month window for most of our A-series machines.? Given the two different license notices, I break down the A-series dating to late 1913/early 1914 and mid/late 1914.? That's about as precise as I can get, given the limited information available. I'd be interested in seeing a photo of your start/stop mechanism.? It sounds like one I had many years ago, and I'm pretty sure that it's the earliest version.? On page 39 of Frow's Edison Disc Phonographs..., an A-150 is shown with what appears to be the conventional start/stop device, and this photo is dated March 2, 1914.? Presuming that all models adopted this newer design at the same time, and your A-250 carries a pre-April 1914 license notice, I'd date it as late 1913/early 1914.? Hope this helps, George Paul __ __ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Edison stop survey
Hi Rich ~ I've searched this book a number of times, but haven't found any reference to the early type levers or the other details that make my early A-250 different from others I've seen. I don't think I'll find it, but I'm now reading the book again cover to cover to catch anything I may have missed. Thanks for the suggestion. Best, Andy On Jun 22, 2007, at 6:27 AM, Rich wrote: Have you checked the information in The Edison Disc Phonographs and Diamond Discs by George Frow?
[Phono-L] Unusual Edison Horn
Yes I think it is and so did the people who bid on it.Steve From: phonol...@mac.com Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Unusual Edison Horn Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:48:39 -0700 To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Isn't that the West Point horn? These were essentially Amberola 50 horns turned upside down, and made available as replacements for earlier horns after the latter were discontinued. On Jun 21, 2007, at 2:13 PM, phonofo...@aol.com wrote: This is quite an interesting horn and it sold for quite a bit ofmoney. Does anyone know about these horns and how long Edisonproduced them? http://cgi.ebay.com/Edison-Unusual-Big-Curved-Neck-Black-Phonograph- Horn- NR_W0QQitemZ130122388045QQihZ003QQcategoryZ38029QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem __ __ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org From steve_nor...@msn.com Fri Jun 22 11:10:37 2007 From: steve_nor...@msn.com (Steven Medved) Date: Fri Jun 22 11:17:36 2007 Subject: [Phono-L] Victor P bracket Message-ID: bay102-w16bfdbd3e7ccc65bf317d8f6...@phx.gbl Hi Loran,Would a gently cleaner such as Maguires body scrub clean the crud off of the shellac? A lot of houses were heated with coal and or wood and this leaves things very dirty. Patina is good, dirt is irritating, but sometimes it is best to leave well enough alone.The oxidized finish is very delicate, when working with Edison oxidized reproducers I only remove dust with a soft tissue. I would think that the shellac could be removed and a new finish installed, but when dealing such an expensive item you would want an expert to do it.Steve Other than gently wiping with a soft (microfiber) cloth to knock the dust off, I'd leave well enough alone. I'm a believer that patina shows the piece has lived a nice, long life. Loran On Jun 21, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Dan Kj wrote: I knew someone who had the same finish on all the door hardware inhis house he removed every piece got them all clean again with somekind of industrial polishing compound. I couldn't tell if he wasdisappointed when I told him the pieces were SUPPOSED to have spots of different- colored metal. ack. - Original Message - From: David Dazer dda...@sbcglobal.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Victor P bracketI had good luck cleaning mine with steel wool and somewaterless hand cleaner that mechanics use. Go easy with it or you might end upstripping the whole thing off. When you see some of the copper coming back, quit.Dave phonofo...@aol.com wrote: I have an oxidized Victor P front mount support brack that is verydark. How could I bring the support bracket back to life so it will show theoxidized finish? Do I remove the old laquer/shellac finish and thenrelacquer? If so what type of finish remover would you recommend? Thanks! ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org From pjfra...@alamedanet.net Fri Jun 22 11:16:20 2007 From: pjfra...@alamedanet.net (pjfra...@alamedanet.net) Date: Fri Jun 22 11:18:09 2007 Subject: [Phono-L] Edison stop survey, In-Reply-To: d502db54-099d-4506-a6f1-0484d23a6...@popyrus.com References: 385023.39360...@web81707.mail.mud.yahoo.com 001101c7b424$1503a050$7201a...@lap ad8525b3-9908-47d1-8fa8-c1bbaf727...@oldcrank.com 649ee6e7-cce8-4613-a572-d9256cb6d...@popyrus.com 8c98281370af96f-92c-1...@webmail-re09.sysops.aol.com ae90f165-f0e1-45f4-aa73-4625493ee...@popyrus.com d0069213-71ea-4925-b373-372ba6264...@alamedanet.net d502db54-099d-4506-a6f1-0484d23a6...@popyrus.com Message-ID: 53924.151.151.21.101.1182536180.squir...@webmail.alamedanet.net cool - i'll put them up later tonight, after the birthday party we're having at our house for a 95 year old (it won't be TOO late, as you might guess!). too bad he wasn't an Edison employee, like a best boy or something - he's old enough to have been there for when your machine was built! Andrew Baron wrote: Many thanks, Peter, for this offer to post the photos. Will follow through and email photos directly to you shortly. Best regards, Andy Baron On Jun 22, 2007, at 8:28 AM, Peter Fraser wrote: can you please post some pictures, or send some to me so that i can post them for folks to review? -- Peter pjfra...@alamedanet.net On Jun 21, 2007, at 10:28 PM, Andrew Baron wrote: Thanks, George for this insight. Given that, and the reasonably good
[Phono-L] Edison stop survey, and reply to Oxidized bronze or copper flashing D.D. crank?
I have an A-250 and would be interested in seeing what you are talking about. Rich On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:33:44 -0600, Andrew Baron wrote: Hi George and thanks for taking the time to reply. I realize that there isn't much information documented, and this is what I'm running up against as much as anything else. Neither of my two machines have paper notices on the cabinet bottoms, but the later one has a data plate with the newest patent date of Mar-11-13, wihle the earlier machine has the newest patent date of 8-26-11. The 6 in 26 is hard to make out, and might be a 3, 8 or 9. Do you have a sense of how soon the patent dates on these model / serial number plates were updated, once a new patent was issued? Peter Fraser has graciously offered to post photos of the early levers, so I've prepared some composited images of the differing details of both of my A-250's. My hope is that some of the Edison enthusiasts out there are familiar with this start / stop lever arrangement. If someone else has a machine with these odd levers, I'd love to know the serial number, so I can get a sense of how late into the production it was used. What piqued my curiosity to begin with was that I had never seen these levers before. I don't know if that's because I haven't gotten around to the shows and big collections, or because they are relatively little known, even by other collectors. I bought my first D.D. machine in 1976, and have had many over the years, but this is the first I've seen with this odd detail. Best, Andy On Jun 22, 2007, at 7:55 AM, gpaul2...@aol.com wrote: Andy, Unfortunately, without some factory documentation of each model's serial numbers within a given month, exact dating for A-series Edison Disc Phonographs is quite difficult.? I've seen two types of paper license notices glued to the bottoms of these cabinets.? The earlier has no date at the bottom, and the later one has an April 1914 date.? Keep in mind that very few Edison Disc Phonographs were available to the public until Aug/Sept 1913, and the fire of Dec. 1914 put an end to most A-series production.? That gives roughly a 15-month window for most of our A-series machines.? Given the two different license notices, I break down the A-series dating to late 1913/early 1914 and mid/late 1914.? That's about as precise as I can get, given the limited information available. I'd be interested in seeing a photo of your start/stop mechanism.? It sounds like one I had many years ago, and I'm pretty sure that it's the earliest version.? On page 39 of Frow's Edison Disc Phonographs..., an A-150 is shown with what appears to be the conventional start/stop device, and this photo is dated March 2, 1914.? Presuming that all models adopted this newer design at the same time, and your A-250 carries a pre-April 1914 license notice, I'd date it as late 1913/early 1914.? Hope this helps, George Paul __ __ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Victor P bracket
The best bet is Murphy's Oil Soap. Mix with a little water and whip up a lather. It might dull the shellac and if it does paste wax will fix it. It will take off the oxidized oil, coal dust, wood ash, and general dirt. It requires patience. ANY product that is listed as either a polish or body scrub or cleaner is an ABRASIVE and will cut through the shellac like a knife. The chemical carriers in these products may also strip the shellac. The copper plate is very thin and that is what makes it fragile. Some of these oxidized fishes are coated with real violin varnish which is much tougher than plain shellac. The color of the final product was controlled by what was used to over coat it. On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:10:37 -0400, Steven Medved wrote: Hi Loran,Would a gently cleaner such as Maguires body scrub clean the crud off of the shellac? A lot of houses were heated with coal and or wood and this leaves things very dirty. Patina is good, dirt is irritating, but sometimes it is best to leave well enough alone.The oxidized finish is very delicate, when working with Edison oxidized reproducers I only remove dust with a soft tissue. I would think that the shellac could be removed and a new finish installed, but when dealing such an expensive item you would want an expert to do it.Steve Other than gently wiping with a soft (microfiber) cloth to knock the dust off, I'd leave well enough alone. I'm a believer that patina shows the piece has lived a nice, long life. Loran On Jun 21, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Dan Kj wrote: I knew someone who had the same finish on all the door hardware inhis house he removed every piece got them all clean again with somekind of industrial polishing compound. I couldn't tell if he wasdisappointed when I told him the pieces were SUPPOSED to have spots of different- colored metal. ack. - Original Message - From: David Dazer dda...@sbcglobal.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Victor P bracketI had good luck cleaning mine with steel wool and somewaterless hand cleaner that mechanics use. Go easy with it or you might end upstripping the whole thing off. When you see some of the copper coming back, quit.Dave phonofo...@aol.com wrote: I have an oxidized Victor P front mount support brack that is verydark. How could I bring the support bracket back to life so it will show theoxidized finish? Do I remove the old laquer/shellac finish and then relacquer? If so what type of finish remover would you recommend? Thanks! ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono- l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Victor P bracket
My cleaner of choice for shellac is mechanic's waterless hand cleaner, without pumice. It does not dull or soften the shellac but it does remove oils, greases and old wax. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Rich Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 2:54 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Victor P bracket The best bet is Murphy's Oil Soap. Mix with a little water and whip up a lather. It might dull the shellac and if it does paste wax will fix it. It will take off the oxidized oil, coal dust, wood ash, and general dirt. It requires patience. ANY product that is listed as either a polish or body scrub or cleaner is an ABRASIVE and will cut through the shellac like a knife. The chemical carriers in these products may also strip the shellac. The copper plate is very thin and that is what makes it fragile. Some of these oxidized fishes are coated with real violin varnish which is much tougher than plain shellac. The color of the final product was controlled by what was used to over coat it. On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:10:37 -0400, Steven Medved wrote: Hi Loran,Would a gently cleaner such as Maguires body scrub clean the crud off of the shellac? A lot of houses were heated with coal and or wood and this leaves things very dirty. Patina is good, dirt is irritating, but sometimes it is best to leave well enough alone.The oxidized finish is very delicate, when working with Edison oxidized reproducers I only remove dust with a soft tissue. I would think that the shellac could be removed and a new finish installed, but when dealing such an expensive item you would want an expert to do it.Steve Other than gently wiping with a soft (microfiber) cloth to knock the dust off, I'd leave well enough alone. I'm a believer that patina shows the piece has lived a nice, long life. Loran On Jun 21, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Dan Kj wrote: I knew someone who had the same finish on all the door hardware inhis house he removed every piece got them all clean again with somekind of industrial polishing compound. I couldn't tell if he wasdisappointed when I told him the pieces were SUPPOSED to have spots of different- colored metal. ack. - Original Message - From: David Dazer dda...@sbcglobal.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Victor P bracketI had good luck cleaning mine with steel wool and somewaterless hand cleaner that mechanics use. Go easy with it or you might end upstripping the whole thing off. When you see some of the copper coming back, quit.Dave phonofo...@aol.com wrote: I have an oxidized Victor P front mount support brack that is verydark. How could I bring the support bracket back to life so it will show theoxidized finish? Do I remove the old laquer/shellac finish and then relacquer? If so what type of finish remover would you recommend? Thanks! ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono- l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Dating pre-1915 A-series Edison Disc Phonographs
Hi Rich and thank you for checking in. I find the formative years of development of the Edison Disc technology to be very compelling, and I'm learning that there doesn't seem to be much known about it. Since the A-250 was derived from the Amberola cabinet that first appeared in 1909, it is the forerunner to all of the Edison Disc phonograph line. I just found a date at the bottom of form 632, the paper slip pasted to the back door of my early A-250; of 11-20-12. Thus, I can now narrow down the date that my early A-250 was made, from approximately December 1912 (the month following the paper form date) to roughly April 1913 (the month after the last patent date on the ID plate of my later A-250, assuming that not more than a few weeks went by before the ID plates were re-tooled to reflect the newest patents). If there were any documentation, or in lieu of documentation, if there are some others like you, with these machines who would be willing to compare details and furnish serial numbers, I could assemble a database that shows by serial number how late into the production certain details of these earliest D.D. machines were seen. I documented several differences I noted between my two A-250 machines in postings to this forum earlier this week, and this evening Peter Fraser will be posting three (I hope) images I emailed him showing a few of these differences. If there's interest, I can prepare a brief yes/no questionnaire that will enable us to document these differences in an organized way. This way we can all learn more about what we have. The hope is that at some point the information collected can convey the variety of different details, and help us narrow down the date of manufacture of these special, first generation, non-standardized examples. Best, Andy Baron On Jun 22, 2007, at 12:31 PM, Rich wrote: I have an A-250 and would be interested in seeing what you are talking about. Rich On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:33:44 -0600, Andrew Baron wrote: Hi George and thanks for taking the time to reply. I realize that there isn't much information documented, and this is what I'm running up against as much as anything else. Neither of my two machines have paper notices on the cabinet bottoms, but the later one has a data plate with the newest patent date of Mar-11-13, wihle the earlier machine has the newest patent date of 8-26-11. The 6 in 26 is hard to make out, and might be a 3, 8 or 9. Do you have a sense of how soon the patent dates on these model / serial number plates were updated, once a new patent was issued? Peter Fraser has graciously offered to post photos of the early levers, so I've prepared some composited images of the differing details of both of my A-250's. My hope is that some of the Edison enthusiasts out there are familiar with this start / stop lever arrangement. If someone else has a machine with these odd levers, I'd love to know the serial number, so I can get a sense of how late into the production it was used. What piqued my curiosity to begin with was that I had never seen these levers before. I don't know if that's because I haven't gotten around to the shows and big collections, or because they are relatively little known, even by other collectors. I bought my first D.D. machine in 1976, and have had many over the years, but this is the first I've seen with this odd detail. Best, Andy On Jun 22, 2007, at 7:55 AM, gpaul2...@aol.com wrote: Andy, Unfortunately, without some factory documentation of each model's serial numbers within a given month, exact dating for A-series Edison Disc Phonographs is quite difficult.? I've seen two types of paper license notices glued to the bottoms of these cabinets.? The earlier has no date at the bottom, and the later one has an April 1914 date.? Keep in mind that very few Edison Disc Phonographs were available to the public until Aug/Sept 1913, and the fire of Dec. 1914 put an end to most A-series production.? That gives roughly a 15-month window for most of our A-series machines.? Given the two different license notices, I break down the A-series dating to late 1913/early 1914 and mid/late 1914.? That's about as precise as I can get, given the limited information available. I'd be interested in seeing a photo of your start/stop mechanism.? It sounds like one I had many years ago, and I'm pretty sure that it's the earliest version.? On page 39 of Frow's Edison Disc Phonographs..., an A-150 is shown with what appears to be the conventional start/stop device, and this photo is dated March 2, 1914.? Presuming that all models adopted this newer design at the same time, and your A-250 carries a pre-April 1914 license notice, I'd date it as late 1913/early 1914.? Hope this helps, George Paul __ __ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out
[Phono-L] Edison stop survey
There is a great deal of information neatly hidden in picture captions etc. I find something new everytime I look. I am interested in seeing what your A-250 stop looks like. I can not picture it in my mind at all. On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:36:52 -0600, Andrew Baron wrote: Hi Rich ~ I've searched this book a number of times, but haven't found any reference to the early type levers or the other details that make my early A-250 different from others I've seen. I don't think I'll find it, but I'm now reading the book again cover to cover to catch anything I may have missed. Thanks for the suggestion. Best, Andy On Jun 22, 2007, at 6:27 AM, Rich wrote: Have you checked the information in The Edison Disc Phonographs and Diamond Discs by George Frow? ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Dating pre-1915 A-series Edison Disc Phonographs
Somebody needs to engage Ron Dethlefson on this, because he may be able to help! Andrew Baron wrote: Hi Rich and thank you for checking in. I find the formative years of development of the Edison Disc technology to be very compelling, and I'm learning that there doesn't seem to be much known about it. Since the A-250 was derived from the Amberola cabinet that first appeared in 1909, it is the forerunner to all of the Edison Disc phonograph line. I just found a date at the bottom of form 632, the paper slip pasted to the back door of my early A-250; of 11-20-12. Thus, I can now narrow down the date that my early A-250 was made, from approximately December 1912 (the month following the paper form date) to roughly April 1913 (the month after the last patent date on the ID plate of my later A-250, assuming that not more than a few weeks went by before the ID plates were re-tooled to reflect the newest patents). If there were any documentation, or in lieu of documentation, if there are some others like you, with these machines who would be willing to compare details and furnish serial numbers, I could assemble a database that shows by serial number how late into the production certain details of these earliest D.D. machines were seen. I documented several differences I noted between my two A-250 machines in postings to this forum earlier this week, and this evening Peter Fraser will be posting three (I hope) images I emailed him showing a few of these differences. If there's interest, I can prepare a brief yes/no questionnaire that will enable us to document these differences in an organized way. This way we can all learn more about what we have. The hope is that at some point the information collected can convey the variety of different details, and help us narrow down the date of manufacture of these special, first generation, non-standardized examples. Best, Andy Baron On Jun 22, 2007, at 12:31 PM, Rich wrote: I have an A-250 and would be interested in seeing what you are talking about. Rich On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:33:44 -0600, Andrew Baron wrote: Hi George and thanks for taking the time to reply. I realize that there isn't much information documented, and this is what I'm running up against as much as anything else. Neither of my two machines have paper notices on the cabinet bottoms, but the later one has a data plate with the newest patent date of Mar-11-13, wihle the earlier machine has the newest patent date of 8-26-11. The 6 in 26 is hard to make out, and might be a 3, 8 or 9. Do you have a sense of how soon the patent dates on these model / serial number plates were updated, once a new patent was issued? Peter Fraser has graciously offered to post photos of the early levers, so I've prepared some composited images of the differing details of both of my A-250's. My hope is that some of the Edison enthusiasts out there are familiar with this start / stop lever arrangement. If someone else has a machine with these odd levers, I'd love to know the serial number, so I can get a sense of how late into the production it was used. What piqued my curiosity to begin with was that I had never seen these levers before. I don't know if that's because I haven't gotten around to the shows and big collections, or because they are relatively little known, even by other collectors. I bought my first D.D. machine in 1976, and have had many over the years, but this is the first I've seen with this odd detail. Best, Andy On Jun 22, 2007, at 7:55 AM, gpaul2...@aol.com wrote: Andy, Unfortunately, without some factory documentation of each model's serial numbers within a given month, exact dating for A-series Edison Disc Phonographs is quite difficult.? I've seen two types of paper license notices glued to the bottoms of these cabinets.? The earlier has no date at the bottom, and the later one has an April 1914 date.? Keep in mind that very few Edison Disc Phonographs were available to the public until Aug/Sept 1913, and the fire of Dec. 1914 put an end to most A-series production.? That gives roughly a 15-month window for most of our A-series machines.? Given the two different license notices, I break down the A-series dating to late 1913/early 1914 and mid/late 1914.? That's about as precise as I can get, given the limited information available. I'd be interested in seeing a photo of your start/stop mechanism.? It sounds like one I had many years ago, and I'm pretty sure that it's the earliest version.? On page 39 of Frow's Edison Disc Phonographs..., an A-150 is shown with what appears to be the conventional start/stop device, and this photo is dated March 2, 1914.? Presuming that all models adopted this newer design at the same time, and your A-250 carries a pre-April 1914 license notice, I'd date it as late 1913/early 1914.? Hope this helps, George Paul
[Phono-L] Dating pre-1915 A-series Edison Disc Phonographs
so i just took the plunge and forwarded the string to him. pjfra...@alamedanet.net wrote: Somebody needs to engage Ron Dethlefson on this, because he may be able to help! Andrew Baron wrote: Hi Rich and thank you for checking in. I find the formative years of development of the Edison Disc technology to be very compelling, and I'm learning that there doesn't seem to be much known about it. Since the A-250 was derived from the Amberola cabinet that first appeared in 1909, it is the forerunner to all of the Edison Disc phonograph line. I just found a date at the bottom of form 632, the paper slip pasted to the back door of my early A-250; of 11-20-12. Thus, I can now narrow down the date that my early A-250 was made, from approximately December 1912 (the month following the paper form date) to roughly April 1913 (the month after the last patent date on the ID plate of my later A-250, assuming that not more than a few weeks went by before the ID plates were re-tooled to reflect the newest patents). If there were any documentation, or in lieu of documentation, if there are some others like you, with these machines who would be willing to compare details and furnish serial numbers, I could assemble a database that shows by serial number how late into the production certain details of these earliest D.D. machines were seen. I documented several differences I noted between my two A-250 machines in postings to this forum earlier this week, and this evening Peter Fraser will be posting three (I hope) images I emailed him showing a few of these differences. If there's interest, I can prepare a brief yes/no questionnaire that will enable us to document these differences in an organized way. This way we can all learn more about what we have. The hope is that at some point the information collected can convey the variety of different details, and help us narrow down the date of manufacture of these special, first generation, non-standardized examples. Best, Andy Baron On Jun 22, 2007, at 12:31 PM, Rich wrote: I have an A-250 and would be interested in seeing what you are talking about. Rich On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:33:44 -0600, Andrew Baron wrote: Hi George and thanks for taking the time to reply. I realize that there isn't much information documented, and this is what I'm running up against as much as anything else. Neither of my two machines have paper notices on the cabinet bottoms, but the later one has a data plate with the newest patent date of Mar-11-13, wihle the earlier machine has the newest patent date of 8-26-11. The 6 in 26 is hard to make out, and might be a 3, 8 or 9. Do you have a sense of how soon the patent dates on these model / serial number plates were updated, once a new patent was issued? Peter Fraser has graciously offered to post photos of the early levers, so I've prepared some composited images of the differing details of both of my A-250's. My hope is that some of the Edison enthusiasts out there are familiar with this start / stop lever arrangement. If someone else has a machine with these odd levers, I'd love to know the serial number, so I can get a sense of how late into the production it was used. What piqued my curiosity to begin with was that I had never seen these levers before. I don't know if that's because I haven't gotten around to the shows and big collections, or because they are relatively little known, even by other collectors. I bought my first D.D. machine in 1976, and have had many over the years, but this is the first I've seen with this odd detail. Best, Andy On Jun 22, 2007, at 7:55 AM, gpaul2...@aol.com wrote: Andy, Unfortunately, without some factory documentation of each model's serial numbers within a given month, exact dating for A-series Edison Disc Phonographs is quite difficult.? I've seen two types of paper license notices glued to the bottoms of these cabinets.? The earlier has no date at the bottom, and the later one has an April 1914 date.? Keep in mind that very few Edison Disc Phonographs were available to the public until Aug/Sept 1913, and the fire of Dec. 1914 put an end to most A-series production.? That gives roughly a 15-month window for most of our A-series machines.? Given the two different license notices, I break down the A-series dating to late 1913/early 1914 and mid/late 1914.? That's about as precise as I can get, given the limited information available. I'd be interested in seeing a photo of your start/stop mechanism.? It sounds like one I had many years ago, and I'm pretty sure that it's the earliest version.? On page 39 of Frow's Edison Disc Phonographs..., an A-150 is shown with what appears to be the conventional start/stop device, and this photo is dated March 2, 1914.? Presuming that all models adopted this newer design at the same time, and your A-250 carries a pre-April 1914 license notice, I'd date it as late
[Phono-L] Edison stop survey
Hi Rich ~ A photo will be posted this evening by Peter Fraser, who will alert the group. In the mean time, I'll send you the photo that shows the start / stop levers on my early machine to you seperately, since it can't be posted to this forum. Best, Andy On Jun 22, 2007, at 2:30 PM, Rich wrote: There is a great deal of information neatly hidden in picture captions etc. I find something new everytime I look. I am interested in seeing what your A-250 stop looks like. I can not picture it in my mind at all. On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:36:52 -0600, Andrew Baron wrote: Hi Rich ~ I've searched this book a number of times, but haven't found any reference to the early type levers or the other details that make my early A-250 different from others I've seen. I don't think I'll find it, but I'm now reading the book again cover to cover to catch anything I may have missed. Thanks for the suggestion. Best, Andy On Jun 22, 2007, at 6:27 AM, Rich wrote: Have you checked the information in The Edison Disc Phonographs and Diamond Discs by George Frow? ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Dating pre-1915 A-series Edison Disc Phonographs
Andy, Looks like you're narrowing the window of possibility for your machine's manufacture - and the clues were right there all along!? I don't have a sense of how long it took for new patent dates to appear on Edison dataplates, as this would imply that newly-patented features appeared on those particular machines.? I suspect that the time varied, depending on whether the model in question was a faster-selling one (such as the A-250) or slow-selling one (such as the A-150) with larger inventories of unsold machines.? In any event, based on the evidence you've discovered today, I'd amend my earlier assessment to late 1912/early 1913 for your example.? Here's a puzzler: you state that Form 632 (pasted to your A-250) is dated 11/20/12.? I have Form 632 pasted to an A-80 and it has NO DATE ON IT.? What do you suppose that means?? Those fellows at West Orange didn't make this easy for us, did they? George Paul AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. From drgr...@msn.com Fri Jun 22 14:39:59 2007 From: drgr...@msn.com (gregory caringi) Date: Fri Jun 22 14:41:58 2007 Subject: [Phono-L] Victor P bracket Message-ID: bay101-f12d65c7d14b94deb2c895fa7...@phx.gbl A couple of years ago, I went through this same questioning process for my Victor R and got the same responses. Maybe my R was too far gone, but none of the suggestions really worked. I turned to Steve Farmer for help. Steve is a great guy and a true craftsman when it comes to restorations. Many of the finest Victor Edison machines with oxidized copper or bronze finishes were Farmerized. Check out: http://mysite.verizon.net/vze8loo1/index.html If a simple cleaning is not going to work, then consider contacting Steve Farmer. He is the best. I'm not sure if this is his current e-mail address. farmeriz...@msn.com Best of luck with the project. Greg Caringi From: Ron L lhera...@bu.edu Reply-To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Victor P bracket Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:09:06 -0400 My cleaner of choice for shellac is mechanic's waterless hand cleaner, without pumice. It does not dull or soften the shellac but it does remove oils, greases and old wax. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Rich Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 2:54 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Victor P bracket The best bet is Murphy's Oil Soap. Mix with a little water and whip up a lather. It might dull the shellac and if it does paste wax will fix it. It will take off the oxidized oil, coal dust, wood ash, and general dirt. It requires patience. ANY product that is listed as either a polish or body scrub or cleaner is an ABRASIVE and will cut through the shellac like a knife. The chemical carriers in these products may also strip the shellac. The copper plate is very thin and that is what makes it fragile. Some of these oxidized fishes are coated with real violin varnish which is much tougher than plain shellac. The color of the final product was controlled by what was used to over coat it. On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:10:37 -0400, Steven Medved wrote: Hi Loran,Would a gently cleaner such as Maguires body scrub clean the crud off of the shellac? A lot of houses were heated with coal and or wood and this leaves things very dirty. Patina is good, dirt is irritating, but sometimes it is best to leave well enough alone.The oxidized finish is very delicate, when working with Edison oxidized reproducers I only remove dust with a soft tissue. I would think that the shellac could be removed and a new finish installed, but when dealing such an expensive item you would want an expert to do it.Steve Other than gently wiping with a soft (microfiber) cloth to knock the dust off, I'd leave well enough alone. I'm a believer that patina shows the piece has lived a nice, long life. Loran On Jun 21, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Dan Kj wrote: I knew someone who had the same finish on all the door hardware inhis house he removed every piece got them all clean again with somekind of industrial polishing compound. I couldn't tell if he wasdisappointed when I told him the pieces were SUPPOSED to have spots of different- colored metal. ack. - Original Message - From: David Dazer dda...@sbcglobal.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Victor P bracketI had good luck cleaning mine with steel wool and somewaterless hand cleaner that mechanics use. Go easy with it or you might end upstripping the whole thing off. When you see some of the copper coming back, quit.Dave phonofo...@aol.com wrote: I have an oxidized
[Phono-L] Dating pre-1915 A-series Edison Disc Phonographs
Common practice in the printing industry was to date the printing plate. I suspect the date is the plate date. They would pour the plate and make a press run for the larger customers. At some point the 11/20/12 plate would be considered worn out and melted down or tossed. On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:10:14 -0400, gpaul2...@aol.com wrote: Andy, Looks like you're narrowing the window of possibility for your machine's manufacture - and the clues were right there all along!? I don't have a sense of how long it took for new patent dates to appear on Edison dataplates, as this would imply that newly-patented features appeared on those particular machines.? I suspect that the time varied, depending on whether the model in question was a faster- selling one (such as the A-250) or slow-selling one (such as the A-150) with larger inventories of unsold machines.? In any event, based on the evidence you've discovered today, I'd amend my earlier assessment to late 1912/early 1913 for your example.? Here's a puzzler: you state that Form 632 (pasted to your A-250) is dated 11/20/12.? I have Form 632 pasted to an A-80 and it has NO DATE ON IT.? What do you suppose that means?? Those fellows at West Orange didn't make this easy for us, did they? George Paul AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Victor P bracket
You are quite correct, if your part has been cleaned one to many times with hand cleaner or other mystery products then seriously consider having it Farmerized. The cost is quite low for the results you will achieve. On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:39:59 -0400, gregory caringi wrote: A couple of years ago, I went through this same questioning process for my Victor R and got the same responses. Maybe my R was too far gone, but none of the suggestions really worked. I turned to Steve Farmer for help. Steve is a great guy and a true craftsman when it comes to restorations. Many of the finest Victor Edison machines with oxidized copper or bronze finishes were Farmerized. Check out: http://mysite.verizon.net/vze8loo1/index.html If a simple cleaning is not going to work, then consider contacting Steve Farmer. He is the best. I'm not sure if this is his current e-mail address. farmeriz...@msn.com Best of luck with the project. Greg Caringi From: Ron L lhera...@bu.edu Reply-To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Victor P bracket Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:09:06 -0400 My cleaner of choice for shellac is mechanic's waterless hand cleaner, without pumice. It does not dull or soften the shellac but it does remove oils, greases and old wax. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Rich Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 2:54 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Victor P bracket The best bet is Murphy's Oil Soap. Mix with a little water and whip up a lather. It might dull the shellac and if it does paste wax will fix it. It will take off the oxidized oil, coal dust, wood ash, and general dirt. It requires patience. ANY product that is listed as either a polish or body scrub or cleaner is an ABRASIVE and will cut through the shellac like a knife. The chemical carriers in these products may also strip the shellac. The copper plate is very thin and that is what makes it fragile. Some of these oxidized fishes are coated with real violin varnish which is much tougher than plain shellac. The color of the final product was controlled by what was used to over coat it. On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:10:37 -0400, Steven Medved wrote: Hi Loran,Would a gently cleaner such as Maguires body scrub clean the crud off of the shellac? A lot of houses were heated with coal and or wood and this leaves things very dirty. Patina is good, dirt is irritating, but sometimes it is best to leave well enough alone.The oxidized finish is very delicate, when working with Edison oxidized reproducers I only remove dust with a soft tissue. I would think that the shellac could be removed and a new finish installed, but when dealing such an expensive item you would want an expert to do it.Steve Other than gently wiping with a soft (microfiber) cloth to knock the dust off, I'd leave well enough alone. I'm a believer that patina shows the piece has lived a nice, long life. Loran On Jun 21, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Dan Kj wrote: I knew someone who had the same finish on all the door hardware inhis house he removed every piece got them all clean again with somekind of industrial polishing compound. I couldn't tell if he wasdisappointed when I told him the pieces were SUPPOSED to have spots of different- colored metal. ack. - Original Message - From: David Dazer dda...@sbcglobal.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Victor P bracketI had good luck cleaning mine with steel wool and somewaterless hand cleaner that mechanics use. Go easy with it or you might end upstripping the whole thing off. When you see some of the copper coming back, quit.Dave phonofo...@aol.com wrote: I have an oxidized Victor P front mount support brack that is verydark. How could I bring the support bracket back to life so it will show theoxidized finish? Do I remove the old laquer/shellac finish and then relacquer? If so what type of finish remover would you recommend? Thanks! ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono- l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Dating pre-1915 A-series Edison Disc Phonographs
Hi George ~ Thanks for sharing that the Form 632 on your A-80 has no date. I have an A-200 that apparently has the same undated form pasted to the inside of the rear cabinet door (same location as on my early A-250). My later A-250, has a different Form 632 located in a different location; on the floor of the horn compartment near the front left, with a later form date of 8-20-14. That makes three known versions of Form 632, and two locations where the form may be found. On the A-80, is it on the bottom of the cabinet or on the back or inside the horn compartment? I appreciate your observation of how long it might take for an updated dataplate to appear, based on how quickly inventories moved. This stands to reason and I hadn't thought of it. Plates would not have been changed out on completed machines, so a slower moving model could be several months or even years in inventory and yet carry an outdated edition of the dataplate. In this case, the date that a particular machine was sold can be very much later than when it was made. Between the Form 632 and the dataplates, we have two possible date indicators for manufacture, and I would think that both can serve to narrow down when a machine was made, regardless of when it was first sold to the public. Best, Andy On Jun 22, 2007, at 3:10 PM, gpaul2...@aol.com wrote: Andy, Looks like you're narrowing the window of possibility for your machine's manufacture - and the clues were right there all along!? I don't have a sense of how long it took for new patent dates to appear on Edison dataplates, as this would imply that newly- patented features appeared on those particular machines.? I suspect that the time varied, depending on whether the model in question was a faster-selling one (such as the A-250) or slow-selling one (such as the A-150) with larger inventories of unsold machines.? In any event, based on the evidence you've discovered today, I'd amend my earlier assessment to late 1912/early 1913 for your example.? Here's a puzzler: you state that Form 632 (pasted to your A-250) is dated 11/20/12.? I have Form 632 pasted to an A-80 and it has NO DATE ON IT.? What do you suppose that means?? Those fellows at West Orange didn't make this easy for us, did they? George Paul __ __ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Re: Unusual Edison Horn West Point Horn
Yes, that was the very rare West Point Horn. Only a few examples exist. The one I had came with a very late Fireside B which included the documentation shown in the Frow-Sefl book on page 155. Best Wishes to All, Al ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From a...@popyrus.com Fri Jun 22 16:18:16 2007 From: a...@popyrus.com (Andrew Baron) Date: Fri Jun 22 16:19:18 2007 Subject: [Phono-L] Dating pre-1915 A-series Edison Disc Phonographs In-Reply-To: 20070622215023.e7b9c195...@mail.intellitechcomputing.com References: 20070622215023.e7b9c195...@mail.intellitechcomputing.com Message-ID: b5ae7627-b545-40d5-9bab-26bfa35aa...@popyrus.com Hi Rich and thanks for adding this information. As well, any company revisions to the content of the form would have resulted in a new or revised plate being prepared as well, ostensibly with a new date, so we have a couple of possibilities for form date changes. My guess is that the first printing of form 632 carried no date, and subsequently one appeared that carried the 11/20/12 date, followed by one that carried the 8-20-14 date. If anyone has a form 632 with a different date, it would be very interesting to note, along with the serial number of the machine. For that matter, it could be informative to compare forms with serial numbers and A-series model numbers in general. Andy On Jun 22, 2007, at 3:50 PM, Rich wrote: Common practice in the printing industry was to date the printing plate. I suspect the date is the plate date. They would pour the plate and make a press run for the larger customers. At some point the 11/20/12 plate would be considered worn out and melted down or tossed.
[Phono-L] Dating pre-1915 A-series Edison Disc Phonographs
Andy, Yes, I think you're on the right track. The Form 632 on the A-80 is beneath the cabinet. George AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. From a...@popyrus.com Fri Jun 22 17:40:06 2007 From: a...@popyrus.com (Andrew Baron) Date: Fri Jun 22 17:41:44 2007 Subject: [Phono-L] Edison stop survey In-Reply-To: 200706221522.l5mfmbee021...@cybertechcomputers.biz References: 200706221522.l5mfmbee021...@cybertechcomputers.biz Message-ID: 461606d8-a22d-4439-a7c6-48ba7e4e7...@popyrus.com Thanks, Rich for sharing this. So at this point, we know that the early style of start / stop lever was carried at least through your serial number SM-3435, and discontinued by #SM-12033 or earlier. This goes for the model A-250. Others I expect would have this appearing in somewhat different serial number sets, but at this point, I have no feedback from anyone that their other model A series DD phonographs have this stop (though I expect that some would have it). Andy On Jun 22, 2007, at 3:43 PM, Rich wrote: OK, you will ove this one. The machine serial number plate is SM 3435 and the mecanism bedplate is 3435 A1 and the stop is identical to the one you have pictured. The case is oak. I can not get at the back of the machine without moving several others so I can not tell you what the label on the back door reads. I would mention this though. I have seen altogether too much evidence to show that Edison numbered the entire machine when it was assembled for sale and not when the individual parts were produced. I also have a B-250 that I will look at later this evening after I get everything off of the top so I can open it. On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:16:25 -0600, Andrew Baron wrote: The lever with the knob on it can be used to both release as well as engage the brake pad. The other lever that contacts the adjustable finger on the lift post is small and not meant to be touched by the user.
[Phono-L] Dating pre-1915 A-series Edison Disc Phonographs
The presence or absence of a date was probably up to the cut maker. Lack of a date does not in its self signify anything related to age. The presence of a date does provide a not applied before date however. On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:18:16 -0600, Andrew Baron wrote: Hi Rich and thanks for adding this information. As well, any company revisions to the content of the form would have resulted in a new or revised plate being prepared as well, ostensibly with a new date, so we have a couple of possibilities for form date changes. My guess is that the first printing of form 632 carried no date, and subsequently one appeared that carried the 11/20/12 date, followed by one that carried the 8-20-14 date. If anyone has a form 632 with a different date, it would be very interesting to note, along with the serial number of the machine. For that matter, it could be informative to compare forms with serial numbers and A-series model numbers in general. Andy On Jun 22, 2007, at 3:50 PM, Rich wrote: Common practice in the printing industry was to date the printing plate. I suspect the date is the plate date. They would pour the plate and make a press run for the larger customers. At some point the 11/20/12 plate would be considered worn out and melted down or tossed. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
