[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
In a message dated 3/9/2008 7:45:42 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jim...@earthlink.net writes: Dear John, The box the attachment came in is marked Edison Needle-Cut Attachment the soundbox (reproducer) has what appears to be an aluminum diaphragm. Its case is nickel plated on the back it says in letters EDISON in smaller letters it saysOrange, N.J., Made in U.S.A.There is also a facsimile of Edison's famous signature. On the front there is a large script E on the diaphragm cover over the stylus bar a cut out ligthtening bolt cut on either side. On a twelve inch 78, when I lower the horn to engage the feed gear in the far right position by the time the record has played the horn has swung to the left the tracking is absolutely terrible. Does anyone have instructions put out by the Edison company for using this attachment when was obviously manufactured by them probably included with the Edison models? Hi Jim, The reproducer you describe was made for the early uncatalogued needle-cut portables and is a beautifully made reproducer. The machines themselves were made by the Prime manufacturing Co. and I think the reproducer was certainly Edison-made. But I was not aware that the Edison Co. actually made the adapter to enable needle-cut records to be played on a diamond disc machine. There was an adapter made by Edison in 1914 as noted in Frow's book but it apparently was removed after 1 year. And the reproducer that you describe wasn't made until 1928 or 1929. A picture of your adapter and box would be great. It would be very interesting to see whether Edison created another adapter in 1928 or later. ---Art Heller **It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf000301) From esrobe...@hotmail.com Sun Mar 9 23:48:17 2008 From: esrobe...@hotmail.com (Robert Wright) Date: Sun Mar 9 23:48:36 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles References: cd7.29393cf3.35062...@aol.com Message-ID: bay123-dav100b4cc947ef4a6f029a3eaa...@phx.gbl It would stand to reason that once Edison had started manufacturing needle-cut discs, an adapter would've followed. What I don't know is when the needle-cuts began coming out, or if there were any 12 needle-cuts issued. I bring up the 12 issues because Edison himself doesn't seem like the type who would EVER have designed and issued an adapter to play anyone else's records (even if the company issued one in 1914), and if the later needle-cut adapter (assuming that's what it is) was designed to play a series of records that were never issued in 12 size, then perhaps there's no reliable way to use this later adapter to play anything but 10. Just throwing some ideas out there. Best, Robert - Original Message - Hi Jim, The reproducer you describe was made for the early uncatalogued needle-cut portables and is a beautifully made reproducer. The machines themselves were made by the Prime manufacturing Co. and I think the reproducer was certainly Edison-made. But I was not aware that the Edison Co. actually made the adapter to enable needle-cut records to be played on a diamond disc machine. There was an adapter made by Edison in 1914 as noted in Frow's book but it apparently was removed after 1 year. And the reproducer that you describe wasn't made until 1928 or 1929. A picture of your adapter and box would be great. It would be very interesting to see whether Edison created another adapter in 1928 or later. ---Art Heller
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
Thanks, Sean! I do remember the Roth discs now. Gold labels with black text, right? - Original Message - From: smil...@nycap.rr.com To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 7:22 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Robert, There were indeed 12 inch Edison needle cut discs issued. The Roth String Quartet set of two discs is one example, I believe the Giovanni Martinelli needle cut issue was also a twelve inch disc. Hope this helps. Sean
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
That'd be the label type, yep! I saw the set at Ward Marston's house over the summer and I'm pretty sure he had a Martinelli as well, same label type, same 12 inch format, too. I think there were a few others in that series, but obviously not many. These were released in late summer of 1929 (Ron D., are you there to confirm this for certain?). I was impressed by the sound quality on them! Sean Original Message: - From: Robert Wright esrobe...@hotmail.com Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 08:57:37 -0500 To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Thanks, Sean! I do remember the Roth discs now. Gold labels with black text, right? - Original Message - From: smil...@nycap.rr.com To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 7:22 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Robert, There were indeed 12 inch Edison needle cut discs issued. The Roth String Quartet set of two discs is one example, I believe the Giovanni Martinelli needle cut issue was also a twelve inch disc. Hope this helps. Sean ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
Yes! Jim, I always lowerd the horn. Never really used these to enjoy my best78's, just enough to test the fact that these did indeed, work pretty well. The best ones used the Victrola number two/Exhibition reproducers, mounted on Kent brand arms. Kent's own brand of reproducer is not the same quality as the Victors are. John.
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
Hello Jim, I start it having the arm in a straight position, in relation to the start of the record itself. Then I lower it. What brand is the reproducer marked? Does it say Edison under it's mica? I have never seen an Edison brand reproducer made for playing regular 78's, on the DD machines. Thank you, John. - Original Message - From: jim...@earthlink.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Dear John, Thanks for your responce to my query about playing lateral-cut records on diamond disc phonographs.. My attachment for playing lateral-cut records on Edison diamond disc phonographs was made by Edison.When you lower the horn to play the 78s on your Edison with the Kent attachment, at what point do you position it? All the best... Very truly yours, Jim Cartwright Immorta l Performances jim...@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. [Original Message] From: Teri Andolina tando...@rochester.rr.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: 3/9/2008 9:06:40 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Yes! Jim, I always lowerd the horn. Never really used these to enjoy my best78's, just enough to test the fact that these did indeed, work pretty well. The best ones used the Victrola number two/Exhibition reproducers, mounted on Kent brand arms. Kent's own brand of reproducer is not the same quality as the Victors are. John. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1322 - Release Date: 3/9/2008 12:17 PM ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1319 - Release Date: 3/8/2008 10:14 AM
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
Dear John, The box the attachment came in is marked Edison Needle-Cut Attachment the soundbox (reproducer) has what appears to be an aluminum diaphragm. Its case is nickel plated on the back it says in letters EDISON in smaller letters it saysOrange, N.J., Made in U.S.A.There is also a facsimile of Edison's famous signature. On the front there is a large script E on the diaphragm cover over the stylus bar a cut out ligthtening bolt cut on either side. On a twelve inch 78, when I lower the horn to engage the feed gear in the far right position by the time the record has played the horn has swung to the left the tracking is absolutely terrible. Does anyone have instructions put out by the Edison company for using this attachment when was obviously manufactured by them probably included with the Edison models? Thanks. All good wishes... Very truly yours, Jim Cartwright Immortal Performances jim...@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. [Original Message] From: Teri Andolina tando...@rochester.rr.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: 3/9/2008 3:00:03 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Hello Jim, I start it having the arm in a straight position, in relation to the start of the record itself. Then I lower it. What brand is the reproducer marked? Does it say Edison under it's mica? I have never seen an Edison brand reproducer made for playing regular 78's, on the DD machines. Thank you, John. - Original Message - From: jim...@earthlink.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Dear John, Thanks for your responce to my query about playing lateral-cut records on diamond disc phonographs.. My attachment for playing lateral-cut records on Edison diamond disc phonographs was made by Edison.When you lower the horn to play the 78s on your Edison with the Kent attachment, at what point do you position it? All the best... Very truly yours, Jim Cartwright Immorta l Performances jim...@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. [Original Message] From: Teri Andolina tando...@rochester.rr.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: 3/9/2008 9:06:40 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Yes! Jim, I always lowerd the horn. Never really used these to enjoy my best78's, just enough to test the fact that these did indeed, work pretty well. The best ones used the Victrola number two/Exhibition reproducers, mounted on Kent brand arms. Kent's own brand of reproducer is not the same quality as the Victors are. John. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1322 - Release Date: 3/9/2008 12:17 PM ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1319 - Release Date: 3/8/2008 10:14 AM ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1322 - Release Date: 3/9/2008 12:17 PM
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
Does it work if you lower the arm when it is about half way through the disk so that you have to move the adaptor to the right to start playing the record and by the time the record is over, would the arm be to the inside and the adaptor almost all the way over to the inside? -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of jim...@earthlink.net Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 9:37 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Dear John, The box the attachment came in is marked Edison Needle-Cut Attachment the soundbox (reproducer) has what appears to be an aluminum diaphragm. Its case is nickel plated on the back it says in letters EDISON in smaller letters it saysOrange, N.J., Made in U.S.A.There is also a facsimile of Edison's famous signature. On the front there is a large script E on the diaphragm cover over the stylus bar a cut out ligthtening bolt cut on either side. On a twelve inch 78, when I lower the horn to engage the feed gear in the far right position by the time the record has played the horn has swung to the left the tracking is absolutely terrible. Does anyone have instructions put out by the Edison company for using this attachment when was obviously manufactured by them probably included with the Edison models? Thanks. All good wishes... Very truly yours, Jim Cartwright Immortal Performances jim...@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. [Original Message] From: Teri Andolina tando...@rochester.rr.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: 3/9/2008 3:00:03 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Hello Jim, I start it having the arm in a straight position, in relation to the start of the record itself. Then I lower it. What brand is the reproducer marked? Does it say Edison under it's mica? I have never seen an Edison brand reproducer made for playing regular 78's, on the DD machines. Thank you, John. - Original Message - From: jim...@earthlink.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Dear John, Thanks for your responce to my query about playing lateral-cut records on diamond disc phonographs.. My attachment for playing lateral-cut records on Edison diamond disc phonographs was made by Edison.When you lower the horn to play the 78s on your Edison with the Kent attachment, at what point do you position it? All the best... Very truly yours, Jim Cartwright Immorta l Performances jim...@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. [Original Message] From: Teri Andolina tando...@rochester.rr.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: 3/9/2008 9:06:40 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Yes! Jim, I always lowerd the horn. Never really used these to enjoy my best78's, just enough to test the fact that these did indeed, work pretty well. The best ones used the Victrola number two/Exhibition reproducers, mounted on Kent brand arms. Kent's own brand of reproducer is not the same quality as the Victors are. John. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1322 - Release Date: 3/9/2008 12:17 PM ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1319 - Release Date: 3/8/2008 10:14 AM ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1322 - Release Date: 3/9/2008 12:17 PM ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
I have an Edison Needle Cut Attachment to play lateral cut records on diamond disc phonographs.It appears to mistrack terribly. When using it, is the horn supposed to be lowered so as to engage the feed screw or is the horn to be put in a single position, not lowered, so the attachment pivots from a stationary point?If so, what would this position be?This attachment came with an Edisonic but would fit most other diamond disc phonographs. Thanks for any information regarding the proper use of this attachment. Very truly yours, Jim Cartwright Immortal Performances jim...@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. [Original Message] From: Robert Wright esrobe...@hotmail.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: 3/7/2008 2:32:00 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles As far as Rega, Lyra, clearaudio, and a number of other high-grade cartridge makers are concerned, I'm positive the entire cantilever is replaced, as well as the suspension. I have heard in the past about companies that merely reground the tip, which seems cheap and somewhat pointless when misaligned magnets and coils reduce output and futz with phase coherency. You're right, of course, you aren't defending steel needles any more strongly than I'm condemning them. They were, after all, the only alternative at one time. But in my experience, I'm not comdemning steel needles any more strongly than they condemned my records by replacing the upper octaves of frequency response with a few dB of white noise. Thank goodness for stacks and stacks of virtually worthless shellac! Best, Robert - Original Message - From: Ron L lhera...@bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:55 PM Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Are you sure the whole cantilever is replaced during a re-tip? I don't think I am defending steel needles any more strongly than you are condemning them. I don't use steel needles exclusively but I don't shy away from steel needles either. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Robert Wright Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:20 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles I don't think anyone ever said that no wear (not damage-the choice of terms shows a prejudice) to a record occurs. Au contraire, dear Ron, it is eBay seller nickjay (or that's what he used to go by) who has said in no uncertain terms that he believes ZERO damage (or wear) happens with a single playback with a new steel needle. So yes, I'm afraid someone has said it, and I'm sure he's not the only true believer out there, as Rich pointed out. I'm suprised by the strongly defensive stance you take on behalf of steel needles, though I know you must have your reasons. But no amount of positive semantics replacing my negatively prejudiced choice of terms is going to reduce the amount of shellac dust I find all over the tip of every brand new soft-tone steel needle I play a shellac record with, so the terms really don't make any difference in the real world. I absolutely agree that optimal set-up on any machine reduces wear to a minimum (that's most of what the set-up is for, as minimum wear often equals optimum sound), but I was pointing out the one aspect of pivoted playback that the purveyors of this myth seem to be either ignorant or unaware: that azimuth error reduces the new needles wear down to precisely match the groove and cause little to no wear after the first few grooves theory to bunk. I also agree some machines had better designs than others. I know a lot of earlier, outside-horn machines had tonearms that were pretty darn long; every millimeter of added distance between the pivot point and the needle tip helps correct the azimuth error by some degree. I don't know how much heavier or lighter these older machines register at the needle tip, but I'd be willing to bet records suffered less wear played on them with new needles than on newer, shorter-tonearm'd models. (Unless, of course, there was very little compliance at the needle shank pivot on the older machines... I wouldn't know, I've never messed with any of them.) What I don't
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
Skating may not be a problem with standard Edison diamond discs played on a diamond disc phonograph but I have found it to cause difficulties when playing the Edison long play diamond discs, especially in the outside inside grooves the twelve inch Edison long playing records exhibit greater tracking problems than the ten inch.I feel that if Edison had introduced linear tracking in his long playing diamond disc phonographs, with the record moving under a stationary reproducer as in the early Amberolas, these tracking problems would have been substancially eliminated.Of course this would not have affected long playing attachments added to existing diamond disc phonographs. Very truly yours, Jim Cartwright Immortal Performances jim...@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. [Original Message] From: Robert Wright esrobe...@hotmail.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: 3/7/2008 7:54:29 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Oh Greg, I have a thousand things to pick your brain about (I knew about CED being a vertical modulation and would LOVE to get into finer details of it with you, as I'm an obsolete technology junkie across the board)! I knew you'd come in with a bunch of relevatory and reliable information, and you have my thanks. This hit the spot. So what I'm understanding is that every time the groove modulates away from its silent center, it is showing the needle to yet more lateral tracking error (Mikey Fremer, Art Dudley, and all those guys call it azimuth -- you know buzzwords fly around the office in America's corporate state! What do they know, anyway?). But because the overall phase of the groove is typically zero (except for the universal cut, but we're only talking about strictly lateral here), the convex wear on both sides of the needle is typically even, and the louder the record, the more safely shaved off the needle becomes. It seems like a pretty good system, if this is true, since the higher modulation exerts more force against the needle, so it is receiving more severe blows from the needle as it passes each ridge. So the more severe the groove works the needle, increasing the prospect of damage, the better-suited that needle becomes along the way. Pretty nifty! It's obvious I should clarify things real quick: to say vinyl could never wear a diamond is to say rocks can't be cut by water, which we all know isn't true. Every time I've said it, I have meant that a modern vinyl record would never substantially wear a modern diamond stylus within the confines of recommended use, which is to say that the cantilever suspension gives out way before the stylus starts to see any wear. I should've pointed this out all along; my apologies for any confusion. I should also point out that while my intention was to illustrate provable damage to modern vinyl records by playback with modern lightweight tonearms, the truth is that negligible doesn't even scratch the surface (so to speak, ha ha) -- in my example, a locked groove left playing for 5 hours more than once resulted in audible frequency changes. At 33.3 rpm, this represents 20,000 plays! So obviously, this kind of wear doesn't really translate in the real world. Again, my point was only proof that such wear does exist, and is measurable. Regarding DD's, Pathe's, and the virtual absence of LTA as a mitigating factor, you have pointed out all the same things I've pointed out. I did say that there is some error with the DD machines, but that it made no difference to the playback characteristics. I didn't point out that the arc was reversed, but it brings up an interesting point: Edison could've easily included one more extension to the tonearm suspension that would've given him bona fide linear tracking, i.e., zero lateral tracking error. It is my belief that he knew this and chose not to, for a few reasons. One, with a feedscrew driving the tonearm, it was not necessary to optimize skate/anti-skate issues for playback reasons. Two (and this one's a stretch), the reverse arc puts the lateral tracking error at the end of the disc towards the outside (I'm not sure how to say this correctly in technical terms), the way it is at the outside edge of the disc on a standard back-pivot tonearm, increasing the amount of skate force at the inside of the record -- certainly handy to ensure a quick skate towards the label after the groove ran out to trip the Duncan stop, though
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
As far as Rega, Lyra, clearaudio, and a number of other high-grade cartridge makers are concerned, I'm positive the entire cantilever is replaced, as well as the suspension. I have heard in the past about companies that merely reground the tip, which seems cheap and somewhat pointless when misaligned magnets and coils reduce output and futz with phase coherency. You're right, of course, you aren't defending steel needles any more strongly than I'm condemning them. They were, after all, the only alternative at one time. But in my experience, I'm not comdemning steel needles any more strongly than they condemned my records by replacing the upper octaves of frequency response with a few dB of white noise. Thank goodness for stacks and stacks of virtually worthless shellac! Best, Robert - Original Message - From: Ron L lhera...@bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:55 PM Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Are you sure the whole cantilever is replaced during a re-tip? I don't think I am defending steel needles any more strongly than you are condemning them. I don't use steel needles exclusively but I don't shy away from steel needles either. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Robert Wright Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:20 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles I don't think anyone ever said that no wear (not damage-the choice of terms shows a prejudice) to a record occurs. Au contraire, dear Ron, it is eBay seller nickjay (or that's what he used to go by) who has said in no uncertain terms that he believes ZERO damage (or wear) happens with a single playback with a new steel needle. So yes, I'm afraid someone has said it, and I'm sure he's not the only true believer out there, as Rich pointed out. I'm suprised by the strongly defensive stance you take on behalf of steel needles, though I know you must have your reasons. But no amount of positive semantics replacing my negatively prejudiced choice of terms is going to reduce the amount of shellac dust I find all over the tip of every brand new soft-tone steel needle I play a shellac record with, so the terms really don't make any difference in the real world. I absolutely agree that optimal set-up on any machine reduces wear to a minimum (that's most of what the set-up is for, as minimum wear often equals optimum sound), but I was pointing out the one aspect of pivoted playback that the purveyors of this myth seem to be either ignorant or unaware: that azimuth error reduces the new needles wear down to precisely match the groove and cause little to no wear after the first few grooves theory to bunk. I also agree some machines had better designs than others. I know a lot of earlier, outside-horn machines had tonearms that were pretty darn long; every millimeter of added distance between the pivot point and the needle tip helps correct the azimuth error by some degree. I don't know how much heavier or lighter these older machines register at the needle tip, but I'd be willing to bet records suffered less wear played on them with new needles than on newer, shorter-tonearm'd models. (Unless, of course, there was very little compliance at the needle shank pivot on the older machines... I wouldn't know, I've never messed with any of them.) What I don't agree with is there being some great difference between wear and damage -- wear IS damage as far as I'm concerned, whether expected or not. Frankly, who among us makes such a distinction when considering buying a record that we later find out has almost completely greyed-out grooves? Who among us minds the occasional edge chip or flake? I fully expect those with shellac discs, as a part of normal use involves handling, and normal handling includes the occasional, accidental chipping of a record edge. No, I say it's a matter of simple semantics, none of which make any real difference -- but by all means, use whatever terms suit you, as will I. Lastly, a bit of quick clarification: regarding Edison DD's and the reasons for their relative lack of wear through playing, Pathe discs, unlike Edison DD's, are made of the same stuff as lateral shellac discs (minus the diamond dust, I'm assuming), and the only Pathe's I find with groove damage have obviously been played on a lateral machine with a steel needle at least once (it's a very obvious look the surface has when subjected to such numbskullery). As I said, Pathe's sapphire ball stylus machines offered exactly the same tip profile to the groove regardless of position and/or angle of the soundbox, because it was spherical; as such, I've never seen a clean vertical Pathe disc
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
As to DD life. There are a lot of original DD reproducers with quite serviceable reproducers containing period stylus bars and diamonds. The original diaphragms are shot but the diamond is good. Yes, some are chipped or show wear but the majority I have looked at are in OK condition. Most of the trashed DDs are the result of being played by children with a steel needle. Most DDs are destroyed by improper storage, not use. Look at a period very popular record and you see the extent of normal wear of the period. Robert Wright wrote: Oh Greg, I have a thousand things to pick your brain about (I knew about CED being a vertical modulation and would LOVE to get into finer details of it with you, as I'm an obsolete technology junkie across the board)! SNIP ... but I wonder just how many times a new DD could be played by a new stylus in a DD phono before audible wear would appear. Would they really wear the diamond out first? Thanks for all your invested time and shared wisdom, Greg. Best, Robert From lhera...@bu.edu Fri Mar 7 06:54:03 2008 From: lhera...@bu.edu (Ron L) Date: Fri Mar 7 06:56:06 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles In-Reply-To: bay123-dav2e9b52f23ef0ef3f05257aa...@phx.gbl References: 410-2200834622125...@earthlink.netbay123-dav129880f3892337835dbaebaa...@phx.gbl002501c87f9a$fbb6c710$90d42...@ad.bu.edubay123-dav51414b1b8a88b4b7515ebaa...@phx.gbl004d01c87fcc$616230a0$90d42...@ad.bu.edu bay123-dav2e9b52f23ef0ef3f05257aa...@phx.gbl Message-ID: 004701c88063$15a631b0$90d42...@ad.bu.edu I had a Stanton locally retipped. The old diamond was completely removed and a new diamond was inserted, no re-grinding involved AFAIK. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Robert Wright Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 3:32 AM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles As far as Rega, Lyra, clearaudio, and a number of other high-grade cartridge makers are concerned, I'm positive the entire cantilever is replaced, as well as the suspension. I have heard in the past about companies that merely reground the tip, which seems cheap and somewhat pointless when misaligned magnets and coils reduce output and futz with phase coherency. You're right, of course, you aren't defending steel needles any more strongly than I'm condemning them. They were, after all, the only alternative at one time. But in my experience, I'm not comdemning steel needles any more strongly than they condemned my records by replacing the upper octaves of frequency response with a few dB of white noise. Thank goodness for stacks and stacks of virtually worthless shellac! Best, Robert - Original Message - From: Ron L lhera...@bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:55 PM Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Are you sure the whole cantilever is replaced during a re-tip? I don't think I am defending steel needles any more strongly than you are condemning them. I don't use steel needles exclusively but I don't shy away from steel needles either. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Robert Wright Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:20 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles I don't think anyone ever said that no wear (not damage-the choice of terms shows a prejudice) to a record occurs. Au contraire, dear Ron, it is eBay seller nickjay (or that's what he used to go by) who has said in no uncertain terms that he believes ZERO damage (or wear) happens with a single playback with a new steel needle. So yes, I'm afraid someone has said it, and I'm sure he's not the only true believer out there, as Rich pointed out. I'm suprised by the strongly defensive stance you take on behalf of steel needles, though I know you must have your reasons. But no amount of positive semantics replacing my negatively prejudiced choice of terms is going to reduce the amount of shellac dust I find all over the tip of every brand new soft-tone steel needle I play a shellac record with, so the terms really don't make any difference in the real world. I absolutely agree that optimal set-up on any machine reduces wear to a minimum (that's most of what the set-up is for, as minimum wear often equals optimum sound), but I was pointing out the one aspect of pivoted playback that the purveyors of this myth seem to be either ignorant or unaware: that azimuth error reduces the new needles wear down to precisely match the groove and cause little to no wear after the first few grooves theory to bunk. I also agree some machines had better designs than others. I know a lot
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
Good points, Rich, especially about improper storage. Out of the sleeve and lying in any kind of humidity equals a ruined DD even without any play. I don't know what this says about me, but the thought of someone playing a DD with a steel needle on a lateral machine has always made my stomach hurt. - Original Message - From: Rich rich-m...@octoxol.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 8:25 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles As to DD life. There are a lot of original DD reproducers with quite serviceable reproducers containing period stylus bars and diamonds. The original diaphragms are shot but the diamond is good. Yes, some are chipped or show wear but the majority I have looked at are in OK condition. Most of the trashed DDs are the result of being played by children with a steel needle. Most DDs are destroyed by improper storage, not use. Look at a period very popular record and you see the extent of normal wear of the period. Robert Wright wrote: Oh Greg, I have a thousand things to pick your brain about (I knew about CED being a vertical modulation and would LOVE to get into finer details of it with you, as I'm an obsolete technology junkie across the board)! SNIP ... but I wonder just how many times a new DD could be played by a new stylus in a DD phono before audible wear would appear. Would they really wear the diamond out first? Thanks for all your invested time and shared wisdom, Greg. Best, Robert ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
Stantons I don't know about; if a modern cartridge is less than $500 and doesn't have an easily replaceable stylus, I generally just by another one. Fortunately, the best tracking I've found in any cartridge under $2000 is in the $350 Shure V15VxMR. And of course, they stopped making the V15 for the first time in decades a couple years ago or something. Grr. But I digress; didn't mean to focus on modern gear for this long. :-) - Original Message - From: Ron L lhera...@bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 8:54 AM Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles I had a Stanton locally retipped. The old diamond was completely removed and a new diamond was inserted, no re-grinding involved AFAIK. Ron L
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
After the the spring was replaced with the motor and the horn with a speaker all of the old phonographs and records became either scrap to be sent to Japan or children's toys. This occurred in the time period from the mid 30s to the late 40s. I have heard many stories retelling playing with these machines. By the early 50s toys had become big business and playing with old anything was out. Robert Wright wrote: Good points, Rich, especially about improper storage. Out of the sleeve and lying in any kind of humidity equals a ruined DD even without any play. I don't know what this says about me, but the thought of someone playing a DD with a steel needle on a lateral machine has always made my stomach hurt. - Original Message - From: Rich rich-m...@octoxol.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 8:25 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles As to DD life. There are a lot of original DD reproducers with quite serviceable reproducers containing period stylus bars and diamonds. The original diaphragms are shot but the diamond is good. Yes, some are chipped or show wear but the majority I have looked at are in OK condition. Most of the trashed DDs are the result of being played by children with a steel needle. Most DDs are destroyed by improper storage, not use. Look at a period very popular record and you see the extent of normal wear of the period. Robert Wright wrote: Oh Greg, I have a thousand things to pick your brain about (I knew about CED being a vertical modulation and would LOVE to get into finer details of it with you, as I'm an obsolete technology junkie across the board)! SNIP ... but I wonder just how many times a new DD could be played by a new stylus in a DD phono before audible wear would appear. Would they really wear the diamond out first? Thanks for all your invested time and shared wisdom, Greg. Best, Robert ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org From rich-m...@octoxol.com Fri Mar 7 07:38:17 2008 From: rich-m...@octoxol.com (Rich) Date: Fri Mar 7 07:51:17 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles In-Reply-To: 004701c88063$15a631b0$90d42...@ad.bu.edu References: 410-2200834622125...@earthlink.netbay123-dav129880f3892337835dbaebaa...@phx.gbl002501c87f9a$fbb6c710$90d42...@ad.bu.edubay123-dav51414b1b8a88b4b7515ebaa...@phx.gbl004d01c87fcc$616230a0$90d42...@ad.bu.edu bay123-dav2e9b52f23ef0ef3f05257aa...@phx.gbl 004701c88063$15a631b0$90d42...@ad.bu.edu Message-ID: 47d16169.9000...@octoxol.com You can always find a local source for something that the manufacturer does not recommend. The entire pull out assembly is supposed to be replaced as the suspension is in there and every elastomer has a service life. Ron L wrote: I had a Stanton locally retipped. The old diamond was completely removed and a new diamond was inserted, no re-grinding involved AFAIK. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Robert Wright Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 3:32 AM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles As far as Rega, Lyra, clearaudio, and a number of other high-grade cartridge makers are concerned, I'm positive the entire cantilever is replaced, as well as the suspension. I have heard in the past about companies that merely reground the tip, which seems cheap and somewhat pointless when misaligned magnets and coils reduce output and futz with phase coherency. You're right, of course, you aren't defending steel needles any more strongly than I'm condemning them. They were, after all, the only alternative at one time. But in my experience, I'm not comdemning steel needles any more strongly than they condemned my records by replacing the upper octaves of frequency response with a few dB of white noise. Thank goodness for stacks and stacks of virtually worthless shellac! Best, Robert - Original Message - From: Ron L lhera...@bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:55 PM Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Are you sure the whole cantilever is replaced during a re-tip? I don't think I am defending steel needles any more strongly than you are condemning them. I don't use steel needles exclusively but I don't shy away from steel needles either. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Robert Wright Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:20 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
We all know that the Grand Canyon was made by water running over rock. Anytime two physical objects contact, there is wear, or damage. That said, the reason I collect antique phonographs is because I like the sound for whatever psychological reason. While I will not play my Nordskog of Spikes Seven Pods of Pepper Orchestra on a Victrola, I have no problem playing almost everything else on some kind of antique phonograph. To be sure I always use a fresh needle and sometimes a fibre needle. I once played a Paul Whiteman record on a VV-IV as many times as I could to see if I could detect wear. I got sick of the record before I could hear an increase in surface noise. Victor had a wear test that in order to pass, a record had to be played 200 times without audible wear (would that Paramount had the same kind of standard). 20 times is more than I care to hear most records. I think we can play our records and enjoy them without pangs of conscience. When we are through with them they will, at best, be absorbed into archives where they will be played once, put onto digital media, and (the originals) never heard again! The digital copies however, with help from new copyright laws, may live again on MP3 players. In the mean time, I will play my Carusos (if I had a Zonophone I might make an exception), McCormacks, Original Indiana Fives and Bessie Smiths the way God intended, on a taking machine. Pardon my ramblings, I found this to be an interesting string of comments. Phil Stewart **It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf000301) From rich-m...@octoxol.com Fri Mar 7 09:56:29 2008 From: rich-m...@octoxol.com (Rich) Date: Fri Mar 7 10:01:22 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles In-Reply-To: 006101c88074$6ba70a10$90d42...@ad.bu.edu References: 410-2200834622125...@earthlink.netbay123-dav129880f3892337835dbaebaa...@phx.gbl002501c87f9a$fbb6c710$90d42...@ad.bu.edubay123-dav51414b1b8a88b4b7515ebaa...@phx.gbl004d01c87fcc$616230a0$90d42...@ad.bu.edu bay123-dav2e9b52f23ef0ef3f05257aa...@phx.gbl004701c88063$15a631b0$90d42...@ad.bu.edu 47d16169.9000...@octoxol.com 006101c88074$6ba70a10$90d42...@ad.bu.edu Message-ID: 47d181cd.8070...@octoxol.com Your problem might be that the cartridge is obsolete. Try the link to the current catalog. https://system.netsuite.com/core/media/media.nl?id=11886c=ACCT106601h=ea8eb7f71c2eceb07b71_xt=.pdfck=0SLNvAETASXUXWIJvid=0SLNvAETAVXUXRX-cktime=401cart=4827670 Ron L wrote: AFAIK, Stanton does not supply new styli for the 6000 series cart. I'd have gotten a 6027 if I could but as it turned out I got it retipped with a nice 3 mil diamond which works better anyway. Ron From lhera...@bu.edu Fri Mar 7 10:49:19 2008 From: lhera...@bu.edu (Ron L) Date: Fri Mar 7 10:49:49 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles In-Reply-To: 47d181cd.8070...@octoxol.com References: 410-2200834622125...@earthlink.netbay123-dav129880f3892337835dbaebaa...@phx.gbl002501c87f9a$fbb6c710$90d42...@ad.bu.edubay123-dav51414b1b8a88b4b7515ebaa...@phx.gbl004d01c87fcc$616230a0$90d42...@ad.bu.edu bay123-dav2e9b52f23ef0ef3f05257aa...@phx.gbl004701c88063$15a631b0$90d42...@ad.bu.edu 47d16169.9000...@octoxol.com006101c88074$6ba70a10$90d42...@ad.bu.edu 47d181cd.8070...@octoxol.com Message-ID: 006901c88083$f351baf0$90d42...@ad.bu.edu I know the cartridge is obsolete (if by that you mean, old). I bought it in 1974. It is on the downstairs turntable I now use only for 78s. If I'd gotten a 500 series or a 6800 series, I could still get styli easy. After I'd had the retip done I did find a source for new ones in Japan but the retip turned out to be less expensive. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Rich Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 12:56 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Your problem might be that the cartridge is obsolete. Try the link to the current catalog. https://system.netsuite.com/core/media/media.nl?id=11886c=ACCT106601h=ea8e b7f71c2eceb07b71_xt=.pdfck=0SLNvAETASXUXWIJvid=0SLNvAETAVXUXRX-cktime=40 1cart=4827670 Ron L wrote: AFAIK, Stanton does not supply new styli for the 6000 series cart. I'd have gotten a 6027 if I could but as it turned out I got it retipped with a nice 3 mil diamond which works better anyway. Ron ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
If you've spent much time playing with Shure and Stanton (and Pickering) cartridges, you've probably figured out that there actually aren't many variations in the basic structures of the styli. The Stanton and modern Pickering styli all share the same diameter cylindrical shank housing, the difference being only in the plastic bits that are molded onto the front. With these styli, the plastic bits do serve the purpose of aligning the stylus assembly and keeping it from rotating when inserted into the cartridge body. Aside from that, just about any stylus assembly can be put into any body. I have often swapped styli from the proper model for a given body model and replaced it with whatever fits or whatever I can make fit by cutting away the necessary plastic bits so that the shank housing fully inserts into the body. The results are quite audibly satisfactory, if not fully cosmetically pleasing. The reason this works is that regardless of what model they call the thing, the bodies are all essentially the same structure internally, made of four coils wound on four ferrous pole pieces. Although there are a few variations in coil inductance and number of turns among the models, this has very little to do with the performance in actuality. Stick a stylus assembly inside this structure and you have a magnetic (dynamic) phono pickup. The performance variations among the models are almost exclusively a property of the stylus assembly and have almost nothing to do with the cartridge body. So you can make a Stanton 681EEE out of any Pickering by simply plugging in a D6800EEE stylus assembly into the Pickering. Likewise, Shure made about three sizes of square stylus shank housings that covered the whole range of their models. You can make an M91ED out of an M75 by just replacing the stylus assembly. And vice versa. If I remember, you don't even have to do any surgery to the plastic parts. Shure was aware that their ruse had been found out by the time their V15-II and later series came out, so they changed (reduced) the size of the shank housing on this series so that the styli didn't fit their earlier model bodies. This forced the customer to shell out the BIG cash to buy the complete cartridge. And I believe that the very earliest models such as the M3 and M7 from the late 1950s had bigger shanks than the M91, M44, and similar models from the 1960s, so those parts cannot be interchanged. Shure was considerably more conniving in creating a very wide range of molded plastic front ends on their styli and cartridge bodies in an attempt to keep you from interchanging them. But if you don't mind getting out the ol' X-axto knife and cutting away the interfering bits, you can effectively replace quite a number of styli with different models. The point here is that since Stanton and Shure are not making replacement styli for most of their models anymore, you can usually make do with a similar new one or NOS one that you may be able to still find. Yes, there are some fairly good replacement styli available from third parties, but REALLY good ones are still hard to find in my experience and repurposing NOS originals sometimes works better. My main gripe at this time is the difficulty in finding line contact (LC) or MicroRidge (MR) styli. I know that there is one custom supplier who sells retipped Shures for several hundred dollars, but I'm just too cheap to fork out that much cash. I think Audio-Technica still makes new LC type styli, and the A-T Shibata cart models have always been excellent. Greg Bogantz - Original Message - From: Ron L lhera...@bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 1:49 PM Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles I know the cartridge is obsolete (if by that you mean, old). I bought it in 1974. It is on the downstairs turntable I now use only for 78s. If I'd gotten a 500 series or a 6800 series, I could still get styli easy. After I'd had the retip done I did find a source for new ones in Japan but the retip turned out to be less expensive. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Rich Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 12:56 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Your problem might be that the cartridge is obsolete. Try the link to the current catalog. https://system.netsuite.com/core/media/media.nl?id=11886c=ACCT106601h=ea8e b7f71c2eceb07b71_xt=.pdfck=0SLNvAETASXUXWIJvid=0SLNvAETAVXUXRX-cktime=40 1cart=4827670 Ron L wrote: AFAIK, Stanton does not supply new styli for the 6000 series cart. I'd have gotten a 6027 if I could but as it turned out I got it retipped with a nice 3 mil diamond which works better anyway. Ron
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
Robert, I agree with you that the Shure V15 MR series are among the best cartridges ever made. So far as I have been able to determine there is very little difference between the V15-V (5) and the V15-III (3) except a slightly flatter frequency response with the V. I remember doing a frequency response run on these models many years ago when they were new (along with dozens of other models) and this was what I found then. As I have said before, the MicroRidge (MR) styli which are a line contact (LC) or micro-line (ML) type of design is the best design you can get. The tracking ability of the III and the V MR designs is virtually the same, even though Shure wanted you to pay more for the later V design. Actually, the MR styli began to be marketed with the introduction of the V model. At that time, it made the V-15-V the best Shure cartridge ever. But then Shure began to offer the MR styli for the III and the IV models as replacements and it became clear that they all performed equally well in tracking ability. So I was happy to save a considerable amount of money by using the III instead of the V stylus. As far as spending more money for any cartridge, I have seen no need for it. I have tested some of the early golden-ear cartridges, both moving magnet (MM) and moving-coil (MC) designs that are so revered by the terminally tone deaf. NONE of them could hold a candle in tracking ability to the scientifically correctly designed Shure V15s. The excessively priced audiophool models are meant to appeal to the golden ear crowd who wouldn't know mistracking if they heard it. I know this from first-hand (ear?) experience by noting that several of my golden-ear friends are completely clueless when it comes to setting up their tonearms for correct tracking force and anti-skate compensation. But they are more than willing to shell out ridiculous amounts of money for a cartridge, preamp, amp, or whatever so long as that model has been blessed by J. Gordon Dolt or some other wack golden ear bloviator in one of the far-too-many magazines devoted to the cult of spending money. The only other cartridges that are on a par with the Shure V15 MRs are the Shibata-equipped Audio-Technicas (880 and 440ML). These carts have a little lower compliance due to their support of the supersonic frequency range, but they still track extremely well at 2 grams which poses no significant threat to records due to their ML stylus shape. I have found the occasional Ortofon (OM-30 and 40) and BO (MMC-20CL and the later MMC-1 and 2) to be very good as well, but they are all out of production now, I believe, including their replacement styli. The golden-ear fascination with the moving coil types has always been overblown. Way back when, the MC types established their reputation because they had lower effective tip mass (ETM), but with more modern permanent magnet technologies, the MM carts actually exhibit lower ETM than the MC types. Consequently, the newest MM types work better and have the additional advantage that they have much higher output voltage which improves their signal to noise ratio. Greg Bogantz - Original Message - From: Robert Wright esrobe...@hotmail.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 10:15 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Stantons I don't know about; if a modern cartridge is less than $500 and doesn't have an easily replaceable stylus, I generally just by another one. Fortunately, the best tracking I've found in any cartridge under $2000 is in the $350 Shure V15VxMR. And of course, they stopped making the V15 for the first time in decades a couple years ago or something. Grr. But I digress; didn't mean to focus on modern gear for this long. :-) - Original Message - From: Ron L lhera...@bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 8:54 AM Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles I had a Stanton locally retipped. The old diamond was completely removed and a new diamond was inserted, no re-grinding involved AFAIK. Ron L ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
Radio Shack still sells styli, at least online. That's where I ordered a replacement for a broken Shure stylus. Jim On Mar 7, 2008, at 10:38 AM, Rich wrote: You can always find a local source for something that the manufacturer does not recommend. The entire pull out assembly is supposed to be replaced as the suspension is in there and every elastomer has a service life. Ron L wrote: I had a Stanton locally retipped. The old diamond was completely removed and a new diamond was inserted, no re-grinding involved AFAIK. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org ] On Behalf Of Robert Wright Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 3:32 AM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles As far as Rega, Lyra, clearaudio, and a number of other high-grade cartridge makers are concerned, I'm positive the entire cantilever is replaced, as well as the suspension. I have heard in the past about companies that merely reground the tip, which seems cheap and somewhat pointless when misaligned magnets and coils reduce output and futz with phase coherency. You're right, of course, you aren't defending steel needles any more strongly than I'm condemning them. They were, after all, the only alternative at one time. But in my experience, I'm not comdemning steel needles any more strongly than they condemned my records by replacing the upper octaves of frequency response with a few dB of white noise. Thank goodness for stacks and stacks of virtually worthless shellac! Best, Robert - Original Message - From: Ron L lhera...@bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:55 PM Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Are you sure the whole cantilever is replaced during a re-tip? I don't think I am defending steel needles any more strongly than you are condemning them. I don't use steel needles exclusively but I don't shy away from steel needles either. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org ] On Behalf Of Robert Wright Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:20 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles I don't think anyone ever said that no wear (not damage-the choice of terms shows a prejudice) to a record occurs. Au contraire, dear Ron, it is eBay seller nickjay (or that's what he used to go by) who has said in no uncertain terms that he believes ZERO damage (or wear) happens with a single playback with a new steel needle. So yes, I'm afraid someone has said it, and I'm sure he's not the only true believer out there, as Rich pointed out. I'm suprised by the strongly defensive stance you take on behalf of steel needles, though I know you must have your reasons. But no amount of positive semantics replacing my negatively prejudiced choice of terms is going to reduce the amount of shellac dust I find all over the tip of every brand new soft-tone steel needle I play a shellac record with, so the terms really don't make any difference in the real world. I absolutely agree that optimal set-up on any machine reduces wear to a minimum (that's most of what the set-up is for, as minimum wear often equals optimum sound), but I was pointing out the one aspect of pivoted playback that the purveyors of this myth seem to be either ignorant or unaware: that azimuth error reduces the new needles wear down to precisely match the groove and cause little to no wear after the first few grooves theory to bunk. I also agree some machines had better designs than others. I know a lot of earlier, outside-horn machines had tonearms that were pretty darn long; every millimeter of added distance between the pivot point and the needle tip helps correct the azimuth error by some degree. I don't know how much heavier or lighter these older machines register at the needle tip, but I'd be willing to bet records suffered less wear played on them with new needles than on newer, shorter-tonearm'd models. (Unless, of course, there was very little compliance at the needle shank pivot on the older machines... I wouldn't know, I've never messed with any of them.) What I don't agree with is there being some great difference between wear and damage -- wear IS damage as far as I'm concerned, whether expected or not. Frankly, who among us makes such a distinction when considering buying a record that we later find out has almost completely greyed-out grooves? Who among us minds the occasional edge chip or flake? I fully expect those with shellac discs, as a part of normal use involves handling, and normal handling includes the occasional
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
The best of the elastomers from the 70s have a shelf life of 20 to 30 years. The compliance of that cartridge should be on its way down hill by now. Some manufacturers used natural rubber back then. Ron L wrote: I know the cartridge is obsolete (if by that you mean, old). I bought it in 1974. It is on the downstairs turntable I now use only for 78s. If I'd gotten a 500 series or a 6800 series, I could still get styli easy. After I'd had the retip done I did find a source for new ones in Japan but the retip turned out to be less expensive. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Rich Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 12:56 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Your problem might be that the cartridge is obsolete. Try the link to the current catalog. https://system.netsuite.com/core/media/media.nl?id=11886c=ACCT106601h=ea8e b7f71c2eceb07b71_xt=.pdfck=0SLNvAETASXUXWIJvid=0SLNvAETAVXUXRX-cktime=40 1cart=4827670 Ron L wrote: AFAIK, Stanton does not supply new styli for the 6000 series cart. I'd have gotten a 6027 if I could but as it turned out I got it retipped with a nice 3 mil diamond which works better anyway. Ron ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org From esrobe...@hotmail.com Fri Mar 7 13:46:32 2008 From: esrobe...@hotmail.com (Robert Wright) Date: Fri Mar 7 14:11:37 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles References: d45.238cecdd.3502d...@aol.com 47d191da.5080...@mediaguide.com Message-ID: bay123-dav58d6f7789fd9369f7792baa...@phx.gbl Sorry Thatcher, that's the second time you've asked. I guess no one stepped up because it's a really difficult question to answer! There's no way to really generalize it. I started with Les Docks' Record Guide: http://www.amazon.com/American-Premium-Record-Guide-1900-1965/dp/087349282X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8s=booksqid=1204922556sr=8-1 It told me certain labels to look out for, like the Brunswick lightening bolt, and certain series of labels like Okeh 8000's and Victor 23000's. In fact, I went through the whole book and put together a list of large groups of records like that, that he found valuable. The problem with this method is that you're going on what ONE other person considers valuable. For instance, most Zonophone records are fairly common and not particularly valuable (rarer than Victor batwings labels, sure, but not considered super-scarce). Similarly, Caruso discs, the majority of them, though well-loved by many collectors, are also next to worthless, as they sold millions of copies and there are still plenty of them around. BUT -- if you have a Zonophone disc with Caruso on it, you're holding what is considered (especially by opera collectors) one of the most valuable records ever pressed. That's one example of thousands, and I am perhaps employing a bit of hyperbole to make the point, but that's what it's like, that's why it's so difficult. How many records are in your collection? Have you ever compiled a list of them on your computer? (I haven't, I don't know how many of us here have.) It's a great deal of trouble, but you could search eBay for exact copies of each record you own. You'll see patterns emerge pretty quickly, I would think. Because all this said, I have to admit that eBay listings have easily been my biggest source of education with regard to the value of individual records. Personally, I'm not in the market for any more 78's as I simply don't have room for what I currently own, even. I would be glad to answer specific questions about specific discs off-list, if you like, and try to help you get started recognizing valuable discs in your own hunting. (And I flatly refuse to buy any of them from you, so no worries there. I have no agenda.) Best, Robert - Original Message - From: Thatcher Graham thatc...@mediaguide.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles That begets a question for me. How do I know what 78s in my collection are valuable?
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
How do you know that they will not be valuable in the future? Remember, at one time the Vic VI and Edison Alva were considered junk. Well, grasshopper, do you want to take that chance? Thatcher Graham wrote: That begets a question for me. How do I know what 78s in my collection are valuable? From gbogan...@charter.net Fri Mar 7 15:22:04 2008 From: gbogan...@charter.net (Greg Bogantz) Date: Fri Mar 7 15:36:44 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles References: 410-2200834622125...@earthlink.netbay123-dav129880f3892337835dbaebaa...@phx.gbl002501c87f9a$fbb6c710$90d42...@ad.bu.edubay123-dav51414b1b8a88b4b7515ebaa...@phx.gbl002f01c87fce$5ee3b130$6400a...@hpa1514n bay123-dav239952443dbddb41e6ce7aa...@phx.gbl Message-ID: 006201c880aa$0e201b80$6400a...@hpa1514n Robert, I have to think that the peculiar tonearm arrangement that Edison came up on the DD players with was done for a combination of cost and patent infringement reasons. This was his typical motivation since Victor and Columbia had already patented most of the early geometries and build details of early phonos. Good grief, hooda thunk that Victor could get away with patenting something as obvious as doors in front of the horn opening? They probably also tried to patent the wheel, but couldn't quite stretch their luck that far. But Edison had to contend with highly litigeous competitors, particularly with regard to his phono products because he was late to market with them. The peculiar tonearm pivot probably did not infringe on a current Victor/Columbia patent. He HAD to use the feedscrew arrangement to get around the Victor patent that covered a record-driven tonearm. Did you know that Edison mounted his DD motorboards with three-point mounts to the sides of the cabinet because Victor had patented the wood motorboard? Did you know that Edison had to mount his horn onto the moving portion of the DD player because Victor had patented the idea of a horn mounted to the cabinet? Whatta pain in the ass those patents must have been to him. Yes, he could have used a pantograph design to provide less LTA in his design, but it would have been more costly and he saw no need for it. As we've already established, LTA had no substantial effect on the reproduced sound, so Edison ignored it. He ignored LTA at least until the introduction of the long play DD. You may have noticed that the LP reproducer is twisted so that the reproducer weight and pivot is angled away from the line of the output tube. Edison had to do this because the excessive LTA of the original DD design caused too much skating force at the end of the record which caused the stylus to skip out of the exceedingly shallow and narrow grooves of the LP. The LP DD was the last gasp of a dying technology. It really was never ready for market, and its introduction further degraded the Edison reputation in the marketplace because the system worked so poorly. Even by today's vinyl LP standards, the outrageously fine recording pitch of 450 lines per inch (LPI) is just barely doable with any degree of reliability. (The average pitch of a typical LP is around 200 LPI, much the same as the standard DD. Or BA. Yes, Edison invented the microgroove record WAY before postwar CBS Records was even a twinkle in British Columbia's eye.) To even THINK that this fine pitch, combined with a very shallow depth could be tracked by an acoustic reproducer tracking at around 70 grams just boggles the mind. Today, I wouldn't even consider trying to play an Edison LP DD with the original reproducer. To do so is to commit murder on the record. Greg Bogantz - Original Message - From: Robert Wright esrobe...@hotmail.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles --- SNIP --- Regarding DD's, Pathe's, and the virtual absence of LTA as a mitigating factor, you have pointed out all the same things I've pointed out. I did say that there is some error with the DD machines, but that it made no difference to the playback characteristics. I didn't point out that the arc was reversed, but it brings up an interesting point: Edison could've easily included one more extension to the tonearm suspension that would've given him bona fide linear tracking, i.e., zero lateral tracking error. It is my belief that he knew this and chose not to, for a few reasons. One, with a feedscrew driving the tonearm, it was not necessary to optimize skate/anti-skate issues for playback reasons. Two (and this one's a stretch), the reverse arc puts the lateral tracking error at the end of the disc towards the outside (I'm not sure how to say this correctly in technical terms), the way it is at the outside edge of the disc on a standard back-pivot tonearm, increasing the amount of skate force
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
Initially, I had chosen to pass on this one, but couldn't. How does anyone know what's valuable about anything? There are two answers to it. If it is something that YOU treasure, it's valuable. The records you like are therefore, valuable to you. The second answer is: what records (or anything else) can be sold for the most money. [Original Message] From: Thatcher Graham thatc...@mediaguide.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: 3/7/2008 2:15:10 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles That begets a question for me. How do I know what 78s in my collection are valuable? noveltyt...@aol.com wrote: We all know that the Grand Canyon was made by water running over rock. Anytime two physical objects contact, there is wear, or damage. That said, the reason I collect antique phonographs is because I like the sound for whatever psychological reason. While I will not play my Nordskog of Spikes Seven Pods of Pepper Orchestra on a Victrola, I have no problem playing almost everything else on some kind of antique phonograph. To be sure I always use a fresh needle and sometimes a fibre needle. I once played a Paul Whiteman record on a VV-IV as many times as I could to see if I could detect wear. I got sick of the record before I could hear an increase in surface noise. Victor had a wear test that in order to pass, a record had to be played 200 times without audible wear (would that Paramount had the same kind of standard). 20 times is more than I care to hear most records. I think we can play our records and enjoy them without pangs of conscience. When we are through with them they will, at best, be absorbed into archives where they will be played once, put onto digital media, and (the originals) never heard again! The digital copies however, with help from new copyright laws, may live again on MP3 players. In the mean time, I will play my Carusos (if I had a Zonophone I might make an exception), McCormacks, Original Indiana Fives and Bessie Smiths the way God intended, on a taking machine. Pardon my ramblings, I found this to be an interesting string of comments. Phil Stewart **It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf000301) ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org -- Thatcher Graham Senior Field Engineer ph. 610-578-0800 x214 cell: 484-354-6918 fx. 610-578-0804 Mediaguide 1000 Chesterbrook Blvd. STE 150 Berwyn, PA 19312 ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org From thatc...@mediaguide.com Fri Mar 7 15:23:40 2008 From: thatc...@mediaguide.com (Thatcher Graham) Date: Fri Mar 7 15:36:55 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles In-Reply-To: 47d1c3eb.3080...@octoxol.com References: d45.238cecdd.3502d...@aol.com 47d191da.5080...@mediaguide.com 47d1c3eb.3080...@octoxol.com Message-ID: 47d1ce7c.40...@mediaguide.com Rich, I ask the question party for concern over wear. And partly because I have about a thousand more than comfortably fit in my apartment. I don't want to toss something valuable just because it is not to my personal tastes. In that general arena I am totally ignorant. -Thatcher Rich wrote: How do you know that they will not be valuable in the future? Remember, at one time the Vic VI and Edison Alva were considered junk. Well, grasshopper, do you want to take that chance? Thatcher Graham wrote: That begets a question for me. How do I know what 78s in my collection are valuable? ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org -- Thatcher Graham Senior Field Engineer ph. 610-578-0800 x214 cell: 484-354-6918 fx. 610-578-0804 Mediaguide 1000 Chesterbrook Blvd. STE 150 Berwyn, PA 19312
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
Well, I misunderstood the intent of your question. Establishing value is difficult but the first cut is condition. Physical condition and the condition of the recorded surface. A good magnifying glass will allow for grading the recorded surface. Any record that was not close to pristine would not be considered valuable. Get the Kauck auction catalogs and look up his condition grading system. Check the final sale price. Kurt points out the high value records in his catalog. Thatcher Graham wrote: Rich, I ask the question party for concern over wear. And partly because I have about a thousand more than comfortably fit in my apartment. I don't want to toss something valuable just because it is not to my personal tastes. In that general arena I am totally ignorant. -Thatcher Rich wrote: How do you know that they will not be valuable in the future? Remember, at one time the Vic VI and Edison Alva were considered junk. Well, grasshopper, do you want to take that chance? Thatcher Graham wrote: That begets a question for me. How do I know what 78s in my collection are valuable? ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org From thatc...@mediaguide.com Fri Mar 7 20:28:38 2008 From: thatc...@mediaguide.com (Thatcher Graham) Date: Fri Mar 7 20:28:53 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles In-Reply-To: 47d1eb3b.5090...@octoxol.com References: d45.238cecdd.3502d...@aol.com 47d191da.5080...@mediaguide.com 47d1c3eb.3080...@octoxol.com 47d1ce7c.40...@mediaguide.com 47d1eb3b.5090...@octoxol.com Message-ID: 47d215f6.2090...@mediaguide.com Every bit of information helps. I really appreciate it. thank you Rich wrote: Well, I misunderstood the intent of your question. Establishing value is difficult but the first cut is condition. Physical condition and the condition of the recorded surface. A good magnifying glass will allow for grading the recorded surface. Any record that was not close to pristine would not be considered valuable. Get the Kauck auction catalogs and look up his condition grading system. Check the final sale price. Kurt points out the high value records in his catalog. Thatcher Graham wrote: Rich, I ask the question party for concern over wear. And partly because I have about a thousand more than comfortably fit in my apartment. I don't want to toss something valuable just because it is not to my personal tastes. In that general arena I am totally ignorant. -Thatcher Rich wrote: How do you know that they will not be valuable in the future? Remember, at one time the Vic VI and Edison Alva were considered junk. Well, grasshopper, do you want to take that chance? Thatcher Graham wrote: That begets a question for me. How do I know what 78s in my collection are valuable? ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org -- Thatcher Graham Senior Field Engineer ph. 610-578-0800 x214 cell: 484-354-6918 fx. 610-578-0804 Mediaguide 1000 Chesterbrook Blvd. STE 150 Berwyn, PA 19312
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
Many times the pros and cons of playing shellac discs on wind-up phonographs have been discussed here on this list. There are more than a few collectors who are completely convinced that if you follow the rules, no damage occurs to your records whatsoever (I even know of an eBay seller who admits to playing ALL his records on his wind-up for aural grading purposes, complete with a diatribe in this practice's defense, though he'll never convince me to buy one of his items), and outside of phono maintenance, there really is only one rule -- use a new needle every time, period. I have never agreed with this. I'm a child of the 80's, and I remember when CD's came out -- one of the selling points (though quite secondary to the issue of surface noise) was that you cannot play a record with some miniscule amount of damage, but that you cannot inflict any amount of damage on a CD by playing it no matter how many times you do so. (And remember, they were talking about modern vinyl records with lightweight tonearms and meticulously ground stylii, not a headless nail with a half-pound chunk of metal sitting on it.) It's absolutely true, as anyone who has ever fallen asleep during play of a modern LP on a modern, non-automatic turntable can attest, as they will hear what sounds like pink noise coming from the closed groove near the label, and a certain amount of black vinyl dust wil find itself on their stylus. Further proof: I have a very nice audiophile turntable rig (Music Hall MMF-9 with lots and lots of upgrades, Shure V15VxMR cartridge), and every time I change the stylus, I let it run in one of the locked-groove white noise grooves of the Cardas Frequency Sweep and Burn-In Record for at least a few hours (usually more like 5) before doing any serious listening. And if you go through my disc's tracks one by one, you will plainly hear a couple that have been used more than once, as evidenced by 3 to 6 dB decrease in the treble frequencies. But back to wind-ups. The idea behind the steel needle/diamond dust in the shellac system is that at the beginning of the record, the first few grooves of (hopefully) dead air will grind the surface of the needle to custom fit that particular groove. My expanded idea of this is that once the needle is sufficiently ground to fit, the grinding of both the needle and the record are reduced drastically, as the weight of the soundbox is then supported by the maximum amount of contact area between needle and groove; if this is true, then an ideal constitution of shellac and diamond dust could be arrived at, as the amount of grounding necessary could be calculated to a very fine degree. So what's the problem? Azimuth. The soundbox travels at a curve. And to compound the problem, tonearms were largely kept at a relatively short distance, something like 170mm compared to the 233mm of a modern tonearm. The length of the tonearm is one of the things directly responsible for the reproducer's perpendicularity to the tangent of the groove at the needle's contact point. I don't have a protractor with which to measure the degrees of arc the soundbox of my portable Victrola is subjected during full transverse of a disc, but believe me, it is sadly substantial, visually. Here's a non-scientific test: grab a small square and align one leg against the inside of the soundbox, with the other leg vertically aligned with the horizontal center of the diaphragm while in playing position (for another non-scientific test, line that leg up directly above the needle's contact point), at the start of a record and then at the end, and see for yourself how much the soundbox's relative position to the groove tangent rotates. (As a point of reference, if the square were arranged with the leg pointing at the spindle, it would continue pointing at it throughout the needle's travel if the angle of the soundbox to the groove tangent was consistent.) It is, in a word, severe. This necessarily means that the walls of the needle as ground flat(ter) by the first few grooves of the record are only in line with those first few grooves. What happens throughout the record is the same thing that would happen if you rotated the needle in the shank slightly and played those first few grooves again -- substantial damage to your record. The truth is that the whole grinding the needle for the first few grooves eliminates further damage theory is complete and total bunk. If your tonearm isn't at least 100 feet long, that record is getting gouged the whole time you're playing it. Engineers who design modern turntables, with tonearms more than 30% longer than those of many wind-up phonographs, still consider azimuth a chief design compromise. Granted, with modern tonearms, it's not as much about record damage as it is about the stability of the stereo soundstage and a number of other playback criteria, but the physics of the thing remain: they
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
Thank you for your research, Robert! Your easy to understand facts have convinced me about record wear issues. You work was a very well done, I collect recordings that cover a span of over100 years and these facts apply to ALL speeds and types of recordings! John Paul.Subject: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles..
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
Robert, I have used highly modified RABCO arms to play records on modern Thorens belt drive turn tables since the early 70s. What you are very clearly explaining here is correct but I quit trying to convince the true believers of the permanent damage they were inflicting on irreplaceable records. You are also correct in stating that the damage created by a properly setup DD machine is minimal when compared to all of the rest of the period machines. Your treatise on phonograph geometry and record damage should stir up some activity. I am picturing a young boy with a stick stuck far into a hornet nest stirring briskly while his brother looks on from a safe distance. Rich Robert Wright wrote: Many times the pros and cons of playing shellac discs on wind-up phonographs have been discussed here on this list. BIG SNIP I have never agreed with this. I'm a child of the 80's, and I remember when CD's came out - BIG SNIP But then, we all know that no matter how die-hard a collector's conviction is that no groove damage occurs from wind-up playback, it's not often we see any of them playing Caruso Zonophones and the like on their Vic VI's. Thoughts? Comments? Corrections? It has been quiet in here for a while, indeed! Best to All, Robert
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
Well thank you very much for the kind words! I have to admit, a big part of me is really hoping I've missed something significant, and that I'm totally wrong; I would love it if any of our experts shared some bit of deeper research that proved e wrong so I could relax when playing records on my wind-ups! Best Regards, Robert Wright - Original Message - From: Teri Andolina tando...@rochester.rr.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Thank you for your research, Robert! Your easy to understand facts have convinced me about record wear issues. You work was a very well done, I collect recordings that cover a span of over100 years and these facts apply to ALL speeds and types of recordings! John Paul.Subject: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles.. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
I don't think anyone ever said that no wear (not damage-the choice of terms shows a prejudice) to a record occurs. That is clearly wrong for the reasons you have stated. Wear to the needle continues throughout the play of the record. If a machine is properly maintained and the reproducer has compliant parts, when a new steel needle(not a nail - see comment in parentheses above) is used, wear is kept to a minimum. Having said that, further qualification should be made. Some machines had better designs than others. Steel needles are ground to a point and tumbled to create a particular radius on the tip they are not merely, headless nails. What has happened over time is that the whole playback system has become refined. Even diamond styli are worn by vinyl records and the records themselves are worn (degraded) every time they are played. No contact system of playback will eliminate this. If you have a super-valuable/rare record, should you play it repeatedly with a steel needle? No. But then again, you probably shouldn't play it repeatedly with any needle/stylus. I think Greg Boganz mentioned the lack of wear on DDs on the Electrola list recently. It is not entirely because of the tone arm and has to do with vertical grooves and the nature of the DD surface. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Robert Wright Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 3:53 AM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles Many times the pros and cons of playing shellac discs on wind-up phonographs have been discussed here on this list. There are more than a few collectors who are completely convinced that if you follow the rules, no damage occurs to your records whatsoever (I even know of an eBay seller who admits to playing ALL his records on his wind-up for aural grading purposes, complete with a diatribe in this practice's defense, though he'll never convince me to buy one of his items), and outside of phono maintenance, there really is only one rule -- use a new needle every time, period. I have never agreed with this. I'm a child of the 80's, and I remember when CD's came out -- one of the selling points (though quite secondary to the issue of surface noise) was that you cannot play a record with some miniscule amount of damage, but that you cannot inflict any amount of damage on a CD by playing it no matter how many times you do so. (And remember, they were talking about modern vinyl records with lightweight tonearms and meticulously ground stylii, not a headless nail with a half-pound chunk of metal sitting on it.) It's absolutely true, as anyone who has ever fallen asleep during play of a modern LP on a modern, non-automatic turntable can attest, as they will hear what sounds like pink noise coming from the closed groove near the label, and a certain amount of black vinyl dust wil find itself on their stylus. Further proof: I have a very nice audiophile turntable rig (Music Hall MMF-9 with lots and lots of upgrades, Shure V15VxMR cartridge), and every time I change the stylus, I let it run in one of the locked-groove white noise grooves of the Cardas Frequency Sweep and Burn-In Record for at least a few hours (usually more like 5) before doing any serious listening. And if you go through my disc's tracks one by one, you will plainly hear a couple that have been used more than once, as evidenced by 3 to 6 dB decrease in the treble frequencies. But back to wind-ups. The idea behind the steel needle/diamond dust in the shellac system is that at the beginning of the record, the first few grooves of (hopefully) dead air will grind the surface of the needle to custom fit that particular groove. My expanded idea of this is that once the needle is sufficiently ground to fit, the grinding of both the needle and the record are reduced drastically, as the weight of the soundbox is then supported by the maximum amount of contact area between needle and groove; if this is true, then an ideal constitution of shellac and diamond dust could be arrived at, as the amount of grounding necessary could be calculated to a very fine degree. So what's the problem? Azimuth. The soundbox travels at a curve. And to compound the problem, tonearms were largely kept at a relatively short distance, something like 170mm compared to the 233mm of a modern tonearm. The length of the tonearm is one of the things directly responsible for the reproducer's perpendicularity to the tangent of the groove at the needle's contact point. I don't have a protractor with which to measure the degrees of arc the soundbox of my portable Victrola is subjected during full transverse of a disc, but believe me, it is sadly substantial, visually. Here's a non-scientific test: grab a small square and align one leg against the inside of the soundbox, with the other leg vertically
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
It turns out the the DD does experience wear or damage, pick the one you like. And when does wear become damage? A properly setup and maintained linear tracking arm with a modern low mass high compliance cartridge will cause minimum damage to the grove walls. If you cling tenaciously to the pivoted tone arm with its changeable geometry and steel needle that needle will wear the grove as it rotates in the grove. You will be shaving rock dust off of the side walls as well as continuously reshaping the needle. Looks like damage to me. Ron L wrote: SNIP I think Greg Boganz mentioned the lack of wear on DDs on the Electrola list recently. It is not entirely because of the tone arm and has to do with vertical grooves and the nature of the DD surface. Ron L From rich-m...@octoxol.com Thu Mar 6 07:54:58 2008 From: rich-m...@octoxol.com (Rich) Date: Thu Mar 6 07:55:36 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles In-Reply-To: 47d008c9.2060...@mediaguide.com References: 410-2200834622125...@earthlink.net bay123-dav129880f3892337835dbaebaa...@phx.gbl 47d0015d.10...@octoxol.com 47d008c9.2060...@mediaguide.com Message-ID: 47d013d2.90...@octoxol.com You can buy a cartridge for your turntable that has 5 to 7 mil conical diamonds. You might find that the standard stereo stylus might miss the existing wear and produce a clean reproduction of badly damaged originals. These will fit into any of the modern turntables and play mono records. The Thorens TD 126 Mk III is not a bad choice if you do not have one. It will cover the 78 rpm to 80 rpm speeds without a lot of work. You will be surprised how good some of these old recordings sound. I think Kurt Kauck has information on the details of setting this up on his website, complete with pictures. Thatcher Graham wrote: Rich, In my general naivety toward this new hobby I'd assumed everybody knew that the steel needle damages the groove. I wasn't aware there was even a debate. A modern tone arm tracks in grams, the phonograph in ounces! But I do have a question. Most of my collection I've assumed to be relatively valueless. Is there a simple resource I can use so I don't happen to destroy one that /is /actually valuable? -Thatcher Rich wrote: Robert, I have used highly modified RABCO arms to play records on modern Thorens belt drive turn tables since the early 70s. What you are very clearly explaining here is correct but I quit trying to convince the true believers of the permanent damage they were inflicting on irreplaceable records. You are also correct in stating that the damage created by a properly setup DD machine is minimal when compared to all of the rest of the period machines. Your treatise on phonograph geometry and record damage should stir up some activity. I am picturing a young boy with a stick stuck far into a hornet nest stirring briskly while his brother looks on from a safe distance. Rich Robert Wright wrote: Many times the pros and cons of playing shellac discs on wind-up phonographs have been discussed here on this list. BIG SNIP I have never agreed with this. I'm a child of the 80's, and I remember when CD's came out - BIG SNIP But then, we all know that no matter how die-hard a collector's conviction is that no groove damage occurs from wind-up playback, it's not often we see any of them playing Caruso Zonophones and the like on their Vic VI's. Thoughts? Comments? Corrections? It has been quiet in here for a while, indeed! Best to All, Robert ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org From lhera...@bu.edu Thu Mar 6 08:03:03 2008 From: lhera...@bu.edu (Ron L) Date: Thu Mar 6 08:07:35 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles In-Reply-To: 47d01171.7040...@octoxol.com References: 410-2200834622125...@earthlink.net bay123-dav129880f3892337835dbaebaa...@phx.gbl002501c87f9a$fbb6c710$90d42...@ad.bu.edu 47d01171.7040...@octoxol.com Message-ID: 002a01c87fa3$8efbe9d0$90d42...@ad.bu.edu Wear was a known entity. It was expected. My mom wore out a record of 'String of Pearls because she played it every day when she got home from high school as a young teen. She wore it out, not damaged it out. Damage is a scratch, a crack, a chip or a needle dig. Every time you start and run your car you are wearing components. Are you damaging the car? No. If you hit a tree, then you are damaging the car. It has nothing to do with wear of components. If you don't change the oil in the engine, wear will be accelerated. I don't think it is right to call planned for/expected change-with-use damage. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
Damage: The occurrence of a change for the worse. Wear: Impairment resulting from long use. Use the one you like. As far as I can tell its damage, regardless if expected or not. Ron L wrote: Wear was a known entity. It was expected. My mom wore out a record of 'String of Pearls because she played it every day when she got home from high school as a young teen. She wore it out, not damaged it out. Damage is a scratch, a crack, a chip or a needle dig. Every time you start and run your car you are wearing components. Are you damaging the car? No. If you hit a tree, then you are damaging the car. It has nothing to do with wear of components. If you don't change the oil in the engine, wear will be accelerated. I don't think it is right to call planned for/expected change-with-use damage. Ron L From d...@old-phonographs.com Thu Mar 6 09:26:11 2008 From: d...@old-phonographs.com (Daniel Melvin) Date: Thu Mar 6 09:28:53 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles In-Reply-To: 47d013d2.90...@octoxol.com References: 410-2200834622125...@earthlink.net bay123-dav129880f3892337835dbaebaa...@phx.gbl 47d0015d.10...@octoxol.com 47d008c9.2060...@mediaguide.com 47d013d2.90...@octoxol.com Message-ID: d14f697b0803060926w2c13e6e2m4cb5e9be46052...@mail.gmail.com Being mostly a phonograph collector who enjoys records I look at this quite differerntly than many of you. While I do understand that there are those truely rare records that should be protected, I don't own many of them. And, if I cannot play the records on the original equipment I own, I have no hobby. So, knowing that there is some risk of ware, in my experience that ware is not so extreme that you have to avoid the enjoyment of playing your machines. I regularly play orthaphonic era records on my Cradenza for non-collectors. They are always amazed at how good they sound. And I play my cylinder records on my cylinder machines too. If I played any record every day I suspose I might wear one of them out. But, I don't play any one record often enough to have even notice a change in the sound quality. Listening to records on modern equipment or recording them is an interesting thing to do. But, it is no susbstitute for the sound on the real thing. It's exactly as there were intended to sound. Dan On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 7:54 AM, Rich rich-m...@octoxol.com wrote: You can buy a cartridge for your turntable that has 5 to 7 mil conical diamonds. You might find that the standard stereo stylus might miss the existing wear and produce a clean reproduction of badly damaged originals. These will fit into any of the modern turntables and play mono records. The Thorens TD 126 Mk III is not a bad choice if you do not have one. It will cover the 78 rpm to 80 rpm speeds without a lot of work. You will be surprised how good some of these old recordings sound. I think Kurt Kauck has information on the details of setting this up on his website, complete with pictures. Thatcher Graham wrote: Rich, In my general naivety toward this new hobby I'd assumed everybody knew that the steel needle damages the groove. I wasn't aware there was even a debate. A modern tone arm tracks in grams, the phonograph in ounces! But I do have a question. Most of my collection I've assumed to be relatively valueless. Is there a simple resource I can use so I don't happen to destroy one that /is /actually valuable? -Thatcher Rich wrote: Robert, I have used highly modified RABCO arms to play records on modern Thorens belt drive turn tables since the early 70s. What you are very clearly explaining here is correct but I quit trying to convince the true believers of the permanent damage they were inflicting on irreplaceable records. You are also correct in stating that the damage created by a properly setup DD machine is minimal when compared to all of the rest of the period machines. Your treatise on phonograph geometry and record damage should stir up some activity. I am picturing a young boy with a stick stuck far into a hornet nest stirring briskly while his brother looks on from a safe distance. Rich Robert Wright wrote: Many times the pros and cons of playing shellac discs on wind-up phonographs have been discussed here on this list. BIG SNIP I have never agreed with this. I'm a child of the 80's, and I remember when CD's came out - BIG SNIP But then, we all know that no matter how die-hard a collector's conviction is that no groove damage occurs from wind-up playback, it's not often we see any of them playing Caruso Zonophones and the like on their Vic VI's. Thoughts? Comments? Corrections? It has been quiet in here for a while, indeed! Best to All, Robert ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
I don't think anyone ever said that no wear (not damage-the choice of terms shows a prejudice) to a record occurs. Au contraire, dear Ron, it is eBay seller nickjay (or that's what he used to go by) who has said in no uncertain terms that he believes ZERO damage (or wear) happens with a single playback with a new steel needle. So yes, I'm afraid someone has said it, and I'm sure he's not the only true believer out there, as Rich pointed out. I'm suprised by the strongly defensive stance you take on behalf of steel needles, though I know you must have your reasons. But no amount of positive semantics replacing my negatively prejudiced choice of terms is going to reduce the amount of shellac dust I find all over the tip of every brand new soft-tone steel needle I play a shellac record with, so the terms really don't make any difference in the real world. I absolutely agree that optimal set-up on any machine reduces wear to a minimum (that's most of what the set-up is for, as minimum wear often equals optimum sound), but I was pointing out the one aspect of pivoted playback that the purveyors of this myth seem to be either ignorant or unaware: that azimuth error reduces the new needles wear down to precisely match the groove and cause little to no wear after the first few grooves theory to bunk. I also agree some machines had better designs than others. I know a lot of earlier, outside-horn machines had tonearms that were pretty darn long; every millimeter of added distance between the pivot point and the needle tip helps correct the azimuth error by some degree. I don't know how much heavier or lighter these older machines register at the needle tip, but I'd be willing to bet records suffered less wear played on them with new needles than on newer, shorter-tonearm'd models. (Unless, of course, there was very little compliance at the needle shank pivot on the older machines... I wouldn't know, I've never messed with any of them.) What I don't agree with is there being some great difference between wear and damage -- wear IS damage as far as I'm concerned, whether expected or not. Frankly, who among us makes such a distinction when considering buying a record that we later find out has almost completely greyed-out grooves? Who among us minds the occasional edge chip or flake? I fully expect those with shellac discs, as a part of normal use involves handling, and normal handling includes the occasional, accidental chipping of a record edge. No, I say it's a matter of simple semantics, none of which make any real difference -- but by all means, use whatever terms suit you, as will I. Lastly, a bit of quick clarification: regarding Edison DD's and the reasons for their relative lack of wear through playing, Pathe discs, unlike Edison DD's, are made of the same stuff as lateral shellac discs (minus the diamond dust, I'm assuming), and the only Pathe's I find with groove damage have obviously been played on a lateral machine with a steel needle at least once (it's a very obvious look the surface has when subjected to such numbskullery). As I said, Pathe's sapphire ball stylus machines offered exactly the same tip profile to the groove regardless of position and/or angle of the soundbox, because it was spherical; as such, I've never seen a clean vertical Pathe disc in the middle -- it has either been shredded to nothing by misuse, or its playing surface looks -- and sounds -- pristine. Final point (so to speak, ha ha): you won't get me to believe that the world's hardest substance can be altered by one of the world's most pliant. Modern cartridges are not retipped because of wear to the diamond; the entire cantilever is replaced, along with the cantilever's suspension. When burning in a new stylus, it is this cantilever suspension that is being broken in, and when the stylus needs replacing, it is because of the cantilever suspension, which cannot support the recommended Vertical Tracking Force after so many hours of use, making the magnets attached to the cantilever become misaligned with the coils inside the cartridge. Plastic does not wear down a diamond. (Playing shellac discs with diamond dust in them is, however, another story completely, as a diamond will obviously be reshaped by grinding against diamond dust -- that's how jewelers shape them to begin with.) Don't let wear OR damage stop you from playing your records, but do know what you're signing up for and act accordingly. Best as always, Robert - Original Message - From: Ron L lhera...@bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 9:01 AM Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles I don't think anyone ever said that no wear (not damage-the choice of terms shows a prejudice) to a record occurs. That is clearly wrong for the reasons you have stated. Wear to the needle continues throughout
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
-- it has either been shredded to nothing by misuse, or its playing surface looks -- and sounds -- pristine. Final point (so to speak, ha ha): you won't get me to believe that the world's hardest substance can be altered by one of the world's most pliant. Modern cartridges are not retipped because of wear to the diamond; the entire cantilever is replaced, along with the cantilever's suspension. When burning in a new stylus, it is this cantilever suspension that is being broken in, and when the stylus needs replacing, it is because of the cantilever suspension, which cannot support the recommended Vertical Tracking Force after so many hours of use, making the magnets attached to the cantilever become misaligned with the coils inside the cartridge. Plastic does not wear down a diamond. (Playing shellac discs with diamond dust in them is, however, another story completely, as a diamond will obviously be reshaped by grinding against diamond dust -- that's how jewelers shape them to begin with.) Don't let wear OR damage stop you from playing your records, but do know what you're signing up for and act accordingly. Best as always, Robert - Original Message - From: Ron L lhera...@bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 9:01 AM Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles I don't think anyone ever said that no wear (not damage-the choice of terms shows a prejudice) to a record occurs. That is clearly wrong for the reasons you have stated. Wear to the needle continues throughout the play of the record. If a machine is properly maintained and the reproducer has compliant parts, when a new steel needle(not a nail - see comment in parentheses above) is used, wear is kept to a minimum. Having said that, further qualification should be made. Some machines had better designs than others. Steel needles are ground to a point and tumbled to create a particular radius on the tip they are not merely, headless nails. What has happened over time is that the whole playback system has become refined. Even diamond styli are worn by vinyl records and the records themselves are worn (degraded) every time they are played. No contact system of playback will eliminate this. If you have a super-valuable/rare record, should you play it repeatedly with a steel needle? No. But then again, you probably shouldn't play it repeatedly with any needle/stylus. I think Greg Boganz mentioned the lack of wear on DDs on the Electrola list recently. It is not entirely because of the tone arm and has to do with vertical grooves and the nature of the DD surface. Ron L ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org From lhera...@bu.edu Thu Mar 6 12:55:14 2008 From: lhera...@bu.edu (Ron L) Date: Thu Mar 6 12:58:31 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles In-Reply-To: bay123-dav51414b1b8a88b4b7515ebaa...@phx.gbl References: 410-2200834622125...@earthlink.netbay123-dav129880f3892337835dbaebaa...@phx.gbl002501c87f9a$fbb6c710$90d42...@ad.bu.edu bay123-dav51414b1b8a88b4b7515ebaa...@phx.gbl Message-ID: 004d01c87fcc$616230a0$90d42...@ad.bu.edu Are you sure the whole cantilever is replaced during a re-tip? I don't think I am defending steel needles any more strongly than you are condemning them. I don't use steel needles exclusively but I don't shy away from steel needles either. Ron L -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Robert Wright Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:20 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles I don't think anyone ever said that no wear (not damage-the choice of terms shows a prejudice) to a record occurs. Au contraire, dear Ron, it is eBay seller nickjay (or that's what he used to go by) who has said in no uncertain terms that he believes ZERO damage (or wear) happens with a single playback with a new steel needle. So yes, I'm afraid someone has said it, and I'm sure he's not the only true believer out there, as Rich pointed out. I'm suprised by the strongly defensive stance you take on behalf of steel needles, though I know you must have your reasons. But no amount of positive semantics replacing my negatively prejudiced choice of terms is going to reduce the amount of shellac dust I find all over the tip of every brand new soft-tone steel needle I play a shellac record with, so the terms really don't make any difference in the real world. I absolutely agree that optimal set-up on any machine reduces wear to a minimum (that's most of what the set-up is for, as minimum wear often equals optimum sound), but I was pointing out the one aspect of pivoted playback that the purveyors of this myth seem to be either
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:19 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles I don't think anyone ever said that no wear (not damage-the choice of terms shows a prejudice) to a record occurs. Au contraire, dear Ron, it is eBay seller nickjay (or that's what he used to go by) who has said in no uncertain terms that he believes ZERO damage (or wear) happens with a single playback with a new steel needle. So yes, I'm afraid someone has said it, and I'm sure he's not the only true believer out there, as Rich pointed out. I'm suprised by the strongly defensive stance you take on behalf of steel needles, though I know you must have your reasons. But no amount of positive semantics replacing my negatively prejudiced choice of terms is going to reduce the amount of shellac dust I find all over the tip of every brand new soft-tone steel needle I play a shellac record with, so the terms really don't make any difference in the real world. I absolutely agree that optimal set-up on any machine reduces wear to a minimum (that's most of what the set-up is for, as minimum wear often equals optimum sound), but I was pointing out the one aspect of pivoted playback that the purveyors of this myth seem to be either ignorant or unaware: that azimuth error reduces the new needles wear down to precisely match the groove and cause little to no wear after the first few grooves theory to bunk. I also agree some machines had better designs than others. I know a lot of earlier, outside-horn machines had tonearms that were pretty darn long; every millimeter of added distance between the pivot point and the needle tip helps correct the azimuth error by some degree. I don't know how much heavier or lighter these older machines register at the needle tip, but I'd be willing to bet records suffered less wear played on them with new needles than on newer, shorter-tonearm'd models. (Unless, of course, there was very little compliance at the needle shank pivot on the older machines... I wouldn't know, I've never messed with any of them.) What I don't agree with is there being some great difference between wear and damage -- wear IS damage as far as I'm concerned, whether expected or not. Frankly, who among us makes such a distinction when considering buying a record that we later find out has almost completely greyed-out grooves? Who among us minds the occasional edge chip or flake? I fully expect those with shellac discs, as a part of normal use involves handling, and normal handling includes the occasional, accidental chipping of a record edge. No, I say it's a matter of simple semantics, none of which make any real difference -- but by all means, use whatever terms suit you, as will I. Lastly, a bit of quick clarification: regarding Edison DD's and the reasons for their relative lack of wear through playing, Pathe discs, unlike Edison DD's, are made of the same stuff as lateral shellac discs (minus the diamond dust, I'm assuming), and the only Pathe's I find with groove damage have obviously been played on a lateral machine with a steel needle at least once (it's a very obvious look the surface has when subjected to such numbskullery). As I said, Pathe's sapphire ball stylus machines offered exactly the same tip profile to the groove regardless of position and/or angle of the soundbox, because it was spherical; as such, I've never seen a clean vertical Pathe disc in the middle -- it has either been shredded to nothing by misuse, or its playing surface looks -- and sounds -- pristine. Final point (so to speak, ha ha): you won't get me to believe that the world's hardest substance can be altered by one of the world's most pliant. Modern cartridges are not retipped because of wear to the diamond; the entire cantilever is replaced, along with the cantilever's suspension. When burning in a new stylus, it is this cantilever suspension that is being broken in, and when the stylus needs replacing, it is because of the cantilever suspension, which cannot support the recommended Vertical Tracking Force after so many hours of use, making the magnets attached to the cantilever become misaligned with the coils inside the cartridge. Plastic does not wear down a diamond. (Playing shellac discs with diamond dust in them is, however, another story completely, as a diamond will obviously be reshaped by grinding against diamond dust -- that's how jewelers shape them to begin with.) Don't let wear OR damage stop you from playing your records, but do know what you're signing up for and act accordingly. Best as always, Robert - Original Message - From: Ron L lhera...@bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 9:01 AM Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from
[Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles
bottom with a large percentage of its circumference supported by the matching radius in the groove. This spread out the high tracking force over a fairly large contact patch at all times. There was no need to wear flats on the stylus. Note that even if the point of tangency changes due to the LTA error of the Edison tonearm, the spherical stylus tip merely rotates in the groove but STILL presents the same curved contact surface with the record which does not have any additional effect on record wear. The choice of the condensite material was such that it's elastic yield point (permanent deformation) was higher than the pressure presented to it by the rounded stylus sitting in the rounded groove. All is well and good until the stylus becomes chipped. When this happens, the sharp edge of the chipped area presents a much smaller contact patch to the groove which very quickly yields the condensite under this very high localized pressure and results in a very visible brownish-looking scratched appearance. The record surface has now been permanently damaged and the record will play that area with much increased noise. Regardless of whether you call it wear or damage, it's been ruined. Greg Bogantz - Original Message - From: Robert Wright esrobe...@hotmail.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:19 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Shellac records and damage from steel needles I don't think anyone ever said that no wear (not damage-the choice of terms shows a prejudice) to a record occurs. Au contraire, dear Ron, it is eBay seller nickjay (or that's what he used to go by) who has said in no uncertain terms that he believes ZERO damage (or wear) happens with a single playback with a new steel needle. So yes, I'm afraid someone has said it, and I'm sure he's not the only true believer out there, as Rich pointed out. I'm suprised by the strongly defensive stance you take on behalf of steel needles, though I know you must have your reasons. But no amount of positive semantics replacing my negatively prejudiced choice of terms is going to reduce the amount of shellac dust I find all over the tip of every brand new soft-tone steel needle I play a shellac record with, so the terms really don't make any difference in the real world. I absolutely agree that optimal set-up on any machine reduces wear to a minimum (that's most of what the set-up is for, as minimum wear often equals optimum sound), but I was pointing out the one aspect of pivoted playback that the purveyors of this myth seem to be either ignorant or unaware: that azimuth error reduces the new needles wear down to precisely match the groove and cause little to no wear after the first few grooves theory to bunk. I also agree some machines had better designs than others. I know a lot of earlier, outside-horn machines had tonearms that were pretty darn long; every millimeter of added distance between the pivot point and the needle tip helps correct the azimuth error by some degree. I don't know how much heavier or lighter these older machines register at the needle tip, but I'd be willing to bet records suffered less wear played on them with new needles than on newer, shorter-tonearm'd models. (Unless, of course, there was very little compliance at the needle shank pivot on the older machines... I wouldn't know, I've never messed with any of them.) What I don't agree with is there being some great difference between wear and damage -- wear IS damage as far as I'm concerned, whether expected or not. Frankly, who among us makes such a distinction when considering buying a record that we later find out has almost completely greyed-out grooves? Who among us minds the occasional edge chip or flake? I fully expect those with shellac discs, as a part of normal use involves handling, and normal handling includes the occasional, accidental chipping of a record edge. No, I say it's a matter of simple semantics, none of which make any real difference -- but by all means, use whatever terms suit you, as will I. Lastly, a bit of quick clarification: regarding Edison DD's and the reasons for their relative lack of wear through playing, Pathe discs, unlike Edison DD's, are made of the same stuff as lateral shellac discs (minus the diamond dust, I'm assuming), and the only Pathe's I find with groove damage have obviously been played on a lateral machine with a steel needle at least once (it's a very obvious look the surface has when subjected to such numbskullery). As I said, Pathe's sapphire ball stylus machines offered exactly the same tip profile to the groove regardless of position and/or angle of the soundbox, because it was spherical; as such, I've never seen a clean vertical Pathe disc in the middle -- it has either been shredded to nothing by misuse
