Re: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 12:52:21PM +1100, Josh G wrote: I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I don't really know any, apart from myself, and I've been just shy of being called a lying scumbag by a few HR companies over the years when they look at my resume ;-) This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80 an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I make here, which is more like US$20/hr Hmm. I get about $250 a month! And I don't think that I'm bad programmer... But this is Poland - Another World :( -- Piotr Duszynski http://www.softomat.com.pl http://filmomat.3miasto.pl http://www.3miasto.pl -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
sounds like you cannot afford NOT to have a second wife! DANG! Some folk have all the luck :! On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 09:25:35AM +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: tOn Fri, 2 Feb 2001, johnny p. wrote: Hah! My wife has a formal education in graphics design. My web sites would look like crap without her extensive layout skills. :) I'm so lucky... Ah! kindered spirit My wife has a formal education in Mass Communication and Public Relations I wouldn't be in bussiness if she was not able make presentations to drum up clients ! BUT we still lack a graphic designer - don't think I can afford a second wife ;-) Cheers Tarique -- = B2B Application Providers http://www.sanisoft.com Vortal for Nagpur http://nagpurcity.net = -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Ok, I just started my own company and finished work for my first client (shameless plug here: http://www.alamosawinecellars.com). The problem I had wasn't in pricing my work by what it's worth and how much time I put in it, but pricing it in a way that would work for my client. I ended up making roughly $10/hr., maybe less, for the effort, but I ended up with an extra $1000 in the bank. Actually when thinking about the projects which I`m making for one company, they end up being 10/h (not $) as well. The part of the project that took all my time is in a backend admin tool that allows the client to update their pages whenever they need. The data is all stored in a mysql db. I know, that part takes most of my time as well, but I`m working on some good template which would make my future jobs easier and cheaper as well (for the clients). Anyways, I have noticed that for some clients, like my first, charging too much will lose them. Right. Usually, when dealing with companies I aleady know, I first listen them out, give my suggestions and views about it, ask what they think about them, and then ask if the sum is ok for them (the sum that I have thought about). I usually give a bit higher one first, I guess quite many of us do it, many companies like to get the price lower, even if it wasnt high at all, so now as I have the possibility to lower the sum, I will do it. But still, you cant set the price too low, I would suggest never to do it, maybe only for friends (for them, why not for free). For other clients, like medium sized companies, charging too little will send them hunting for someone else. You are probably right. But as a freelance, you can sometimes afford asking them maybe even 3-4times less than some big web development company would. And also, everything can be negotiated. One of my mottos:-) Siim Einfeldt [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Interesting, that, since I will be graduating with majors in Computer Information Systems _and_ Mass Communications, but I still need a graphic artist. Does anybody where I can get a good wife? *JK* -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:56 PM To: johnny p. Cc: Jerry Lake; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? tOn Fri, 2 Feb 2001, johnny p. wrote: Hah! My wife has a formal education in graphics design. My web sites would look like crap without her extensive layout skills. :) I'm so lucky... Ah! kindered spirit My wife has a formal education in Mass Communication and Public Relations I wouldn't be in bussiness if she was not able make presentations to drum up clients ! BUT we still lack a graphic designer - don't think I can afford a second wife ;-) Cheers Tarique -- = B2B Application Providers http://www.sanisoft.com Vortal for Nagpur http://nagpurcity.net = -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Isn't it illegal in the US to discuss rates in this manner? It's always been my understanding that The U.S. law specifically makes discussion of pricing between competitors (all or some) a federal offense. Am I taking this too literally? I think so. First of all, this isn't a US-only forum. Secondly, the point is to avoid price-fixing. Given the current status of the web-design industry, there are far, far too many wannabes out there for any real price-fixing to be effective. Thirdly, the variance already presented is rather wide. Fourthly, this is a public forum where consumers are also welcome to contribute their thoughts on these pricings, rather than a non-public collusion of only one side of the potential transactions. Finally, why don't we wait until the DOJ actually complains about it, after they finished breaking up Microsoft :-) More seriously, I don't think the DOJ is going to take a dim view of this thread, even if they noticed. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
As a PHP programmer and COO of a development and consulting shop, the emphasis on hourly rate is something that really amazes me. Not all programmers are created equal. A lot of clients don't recognize that. Some mistakenly believe that a $120/hr. programmer is 20% more productive than a $100/hr. programmer. Yet others think that a $200/hr. programmer must be twice as good as a $100/hr. programmer. Yes, you`re right about that, you cant take it that literally. That`s not the way to decide who you should hire. Even one programmer could make things for a quite different price for different clients. I know it, I`m pretty much working this way right now. I`m doing some project based work for one firm (continuing stuff) and then for separate firms I just set the price that seems to be acceptable to both of us. I find that there is *no* correlation between hourly rate and the quality, productivity and value of a programmer. But here I have to disagree with you. Yes, some guys who charge only $10/h might sometimes be better than $200/h, but you cant say that there is *no* corralation between rates and quality. Sometimes there actually is. First, when you start with something, let it be php or something else and when you start then selling your services, you know you`re new, you just give your hours away for smaller money, you`re productivity is a bit lower, etc. In the other hand, an experienced guy already knows how much work it actually takes, he knows he can do it well and because of that, he charges more. Yes, it`s not always so, but still. We've talked to a number of prospective clients who were charged $100,000+ for projects we could have done for $5,000. I couldn't sleep at night if we gouged clients like that and in the long run I think gouging clients will come back to bite you. We try to emphasize the total cost to the client along with the benefits of our proposed solutions. We try to state these benefits in terms of time savings, exposure, value-added capabilities, revenue and process improvement. When you can put what you can bring to the table in these terms the hourly rate becomes less critical and it makes it easier to compete with inferior competitors that compete on price alone. I usually dont charge for hour either, rather per project, but your example of $5000 and $100,000. Well, what is the purpose of your doings? Many of us like what we do, but the second reason (if not the first) for doing it, is money, you can say whatever you want, but this is true for mosy of the peops. I just read somewhere (maybe from this list itself), that when setting the price, first think of your own needs, how much work would it take and how much would you charge for it and then think about the value of it to your customer (who may sometimes think bigger is better), what would he be ready to pay for it and then ask the higher amount. You say you couldnt sleep at night, but the price you set, it actually pretty much depends on the country, area, where you live, so maybe the ones who asked $200/h just had to ask it (probably not, but just think of the idea for a moment). I could afford making something for 30$/h, maybe even cheaper, lets say you do it for $50 - you can`t say you charge too much because I charge less and neiter vice versa. And lets talk about clients just a bit more. A decent firm, before it starts buying something, it looks on more than one direction, they make their job on getting to know the prices and services that are being offered to decide where to order something. Now, the ball is in their side, it`s totally their choice who,which firm they choose to do the job, so why should you worry, if your customer feedback was the best, your marketing guys made great job, why should you worry about charging $100,000 instead of $5000? You shouldnt. In some other fields you could say that they just didn`t have any other candidates to choose from, but when talking about programming and php, well, you just can`t say it, can you? Most of the projects can be done even over the internet, no problems. But yes, when talking about starting, then it might seem quite hard to find work at first, I was in this situation 6 months ago myself, but right now I could soon probably give work to a whole team. At first, you shouldn`t count on all the jobsites available in the internet, rather word of mouth, this is the best way. Maybe, for some contract work, go to some company for which you think you could really do something and convince them as well. And then dont worry, it might take time, but if try hard, there`s a green light in the end of the year. Siim Einfeldt [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Ok, I just started my own company and finished work for my first client (shameless plug here: http://www.alamosawinecellars.com). The problem I had wasn't in pricing my work by what it's worth and how much time I put in it, but pricing it in a way that would work for my client. I ended up making roughly $10/hr., maybe less, for the effort, but I ended up with an extra $1000 in the bank. If I wanted to charge more, I would have had to take a walk and look for another client. My price wasn't based on an hourly rate, but on the project and my client's company size and ability to come up with enough to cover my time. The part of the project that took all my time is in a backend admin tool that allows the client to update their pages whenever they need. The data is all stored in a mysql db. Anyways, I have noticed that for some clients, like my first, charging too much will lose them. For other clients, like medium sized companies, charging too little will send them hunting for someone else. Very bizarre environment to work in, but my suggestion is to judge your prices based on the client's perspective. Interview the client and try to get an idea of what they're looking for. Look at what the client thinks they're getting. Use anything you can to find out what the client's price range is and then set your prices in the middle. And also, everything can be negotiated. my 2 cents... johnny p. -Original Message- From: Siim Einfeldt aka Itpunk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:23 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? As a PHP programmer and COO of a development and consulting shop, the emphasis on hourly rate is something that really amazes me. Not all programmers are created equal. A lot of clients don't recognize that. Some mistakenly believe that a $120/hr. programmer is 20% more productive than a $100/hr. programmer. Yet others think that a $200/hr. programmer must be twice as good as a $100/hr. programmer. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
"Siim Einfeldt aka Itpunk" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But here I have to disagree with you. Yes, some guys who charge only $10/h might sometimes be better than $200/h, but you cant say that there is *no* corralation between rates and quality. Sometimes there actually is. $10 versus $200 is a little extreme, but I agree that there is sometimes a correlation between rates and quality if we're talking about programmers or firms that deal with larger, better educated (in terms of software development) clients. If we're talking about individual programmers that deal with smaller clients I don't find this to be the case. Because smaller clients tend to understand the technology and the process less and often can't recognize the difference between a guru and a hack. I usually dont charge for hour either, rather per project, but your example of $5000 and $100,000. Well, what is the purpose of your doings? Many of us like what we do, but the second reason (if not the first) for doing it, is money, you can say whatever you want, but this is true for mosy of the peops. Obviously I want to be profitable. But my primary motivation is to be doing challenging work, to enjoy what I'm doing and to build software that makes my clients happy. Sure, we could be like this other company and charge $100,000 for a project that's worth $5,000 but we won't do that. Why? Because it will inevitably come back to haunt us. In this business you have little more than your knowledge and your reputation and a tarnished reputation won't get you far. YMMV. And lets talk about clients just a bit more. A decent firm, before it starts buying something, it looks on more than one direction, they make their job on getting to know the prices and services that are being offered to decide where to order something. Again, I think we're talking about different kinds of clients. A large corporate client looking for someone to fulfill a large project will spend a lot of time doing research, soliciting quotes and in general will be well educated in terms of what's involved and what it should cost. A small brick and mortar company or shoestring budget startup headed by a non-technical person might not have that luxury and generally doesn't have the time, energy or expertise to make a qualified decision. My experience is that a lot of these type of clients only speak to 1 to 3 firms. And these other firms are often not qualified - they don't understand the business world or don't even do programming. In fact, last week I spoke to the head of a small internet startup that was soliciting bids for a search engine for his site. His site consisted *entirely* of hundreds of identically formatted static pages that were created by combining text and images in Photoshop. He got bids from 2 other firms before me about building a search engine for the site. We were the only firm that informed him that no search engine can search text from within an image (meaning the other firms had no clue) and that if we built him a database driven site with an admin interface to upload images, create records and modify text he could save 15 minutes per page built for the site and modify the entire look of the site in under an hour. Based on his projection this would save him about 300 hours a year. These are the type of clients we typically deal with 80% of the time. We're comfortable doing it, but we don't rip them off just because they're uneducated. $100,000 instead of $5000? You shouldnt. In some other fields you could say that they just didn`t have any other candidates to choose from, but when talking about programming and php, well, you just can`t say it, can you? Most of the projects can be done even over the internet, no problems. My reality is different than your reality. I don't know if I want to trade places or not. grin shouldn`t count on all the jobsites available in the internet, rather word of mouth, this is the best way. Amen. If you do good work for a fair price and make the experience pleasurable for your clients the work will come. It's like any business. People want to work with people they like and if your customers like you they'll mention you to others. -- Steve Werby COO 24-7 Computer Services, LLC Tel: 804.817.2470 http://www.247computing.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
So how do you know what to charge when youre independent and just starting? _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
johnny this is great to start out but if you keep doing it you will find that you will get a lot of bad clients who don't value your work and expect you to do a lot of extra stuff for free or request endless changes. That's typical of clients who look for extremely low cost work. Be sure to set limits on what you will do and make sure they value your work and trust you. Otherwise you will be driven to insanity in time. Nice site BTW. Jeff Oien Ok, I just started my own company and finished work for my first client (shameless plug here: http://www.alamosawinecellars.com). The problem I had wasn't in pricing my work by what it's worth and how much time I put in it, but pricing it in a way that would work for my client. I ended up making roughly $10/hr., maybe less, for the effort, but I ended up with an extra $1000 in the bank. If I wanted to charge more, I would have had to take a walk and look for another client. My price wasn't based on an hourly rate, but on the project and my client's company size and ability to come up with enough to cover my time. The part of the project that took all my time is in a backend admin tool that allows the client to update their pages whenever they need. The data is all stored in a mysql db. Anyways, I have noticed that for some clients, like my first, charging too much will lose them. For other clients, like medium sized companies, charging too little will send them hunting for someone else. Very bizarre environment to work in, but my suggestion is to judge your prices based on the client's perspective. Interview the client and try to get an idea of what they're looking for. Look at what the client thinks they're getting. Use anything you can to find out what the client's price range is and then set your prices in the middle. And also, everything can be negotiated. my 2 cents... johnny p. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
When in doubt, go low - esp when you're just starting out. If you're a good coder, start at USD$20. You may go from there once you're more comfortable with the process, have a small list of clientele, and have refined your working environment (it's a little different than working for a company.) If you start too high, you risk prematurely damaging your reputation, as well as having difficulty finding clients. Some places, like here in California, you need to stay within the "going rate" which is all over the place for a coder. You'll have to evaluate it on a job-by-job basis. If you're starting out, I wouldn't go above $60/hr, but it's entirely up to you. If you don't contract on a per project basis, and stick to an hourly rate you have the option of raising that rate at a later time. If you do it on a per project basis, you can simply raise the rate between projects. If you're too high, and have to come down it looks bad. Tactfully done, it can give the subtle illusion that they're getting a "good deal" on you. It's all about image at the negotiating table, and -percieved- value. After that it's up to you to make it happen. Above all, watch them taxes. Independent Contractors get hit (in the US) with a business tax as well as the expected income tax. 1099-MISC income (ie, independent contract work) can really be a nasty shock if you don't account for the extra tax. When I was first starting out, my first year, I didn't know about it and ended up approx $10k in debt, as well as being penalized for not making quarterly tax payments. Not a big debt, but it was definately an unwelcome shock come April 15th. In this field your reputation is EVERYTHING. The customer is always right, and you should do everything you can to make them FEEL good. Even if thing's aren't going okay, as soon as they start doubting your skill, your decisions, they may doubt using you. If they like you they'll return, and often times will refer you to other companies. It's all about great code and a "warm fuzzy" for the client. 'Luck -Szii At 11:23 AM 2/2/2001 -0600, you wrote: So how do you know what to charge when youre independent and just starting? _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Ok.I want to start doing outside (extra) contract work...independantly. I have had only one clientthey loved the work.and I am having problems finding more...I think I am just not looking in the right spotwhere would be a good spot to drum up bussinessdoesn't have to be a place onlinebut how did everyone get so many customers? Where do you get them? nick --- Nick.Stankus Software Engineer Logicon/Sterling Federal 402-232-7870 --- "There are two things that are infinite; Human stupidity and the universe. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Wade D" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? | When in doubt, go low - esp when you're just starting out. If you're a good | coder, start at USD$20. You may go from there once you're more comfortable | with the process, have a small list of clientele, and have refined your | working environment (it's a little different than working for a company.) | If you start too high, you risk prematurely damaging your reputation, as well | as having difficulty finding clients. Some places, like here in | California, you | need to stay within the "going rate" which is all over the place for a coder. | You'll have to evaluate it on a job-by-job basis. If you're starting out, | I wouldn't | go above $60/hr, but it's entirely up to you. If you don't contract on a | per project | basis, and stick to an hourly rate you have the option of raising that rate | at a | later time. If you do it on a per project basis, you can simply raise the | rate | between projects. If you're too high, and have to come down it looks bad. | Tactfully done, it can give the subtle illusion that they're getting a | "good deal" | on you. It's all about image at the negotiating table, and -percieved- value. | After that it's up to you to make it happen. | | Above all, watch them taxes. Independent Contractors get hit (in the US) | with a business tax as well as the expected income tax. 1099-MISC | income (ie, independent contract work) can really be a nasty shock if | you don't account for the extra tax. When I was first starting out, my first | year, I didn't know about it and ended up approx $10k in debt, as well as | being penalized for not making quarterly tax payments. Not a big debt, | but it was definately an unwelcome shock come April 15th. | | In this field your reputation is EVERYTHING. The customer is always right, | and you should do everything you can to make them FEEL good. Even if | thing's aren't going okay, as soon as they start doubting your skill, your | decisions, they may doubt using you. If they like you they'll return, | and often times will refer you to other companies. It's all about great code | and a "warm fuzzy" for the client. | | 'Luck | | -Szii | | At 11:23 AM 2/2/2001 -0600, you wrote: | So how do you know what to charge when youre independent and just starting? | | | _ | Do You Yahoo!? | Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com | | | -- | PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) | To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | | -- | PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) | To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Hah! My wife has a formal education in graphics design. My web sites would look like crap without her extensive layout skills. :) I'm so lucky... johnny p. -Original Message- From: Jerry Lake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? Yep, ain't it grand... I got hired on as a designer and somebody got the bright idea that I must be a programmer as well funny I don't remember that on my resume. Jerry Lake- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Designer Europa Communications - http://www.europa.com Pacifier Online - http://www.pacifier.com -Original Message- From: Robin Vickery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 3:43 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? "JG" == "Josh G" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I've never quite understood why employers seem to expect that a php/perl programmer should also be doing graphic design. They're quite unrelated activities using completely different skills. It's not something that's generally expected from other professions (when was the last time you saw an advert for an accountant that required they be proficient with Photoshop?) so why programmers? -robin (who can't draw for toffee) -- Robin Vickery. BlueCarrots, 14th Floor, 20 Eastbourne Terrace, London, W2 6LE -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Obviously I want to be profitable. But my primary motivation is to be doing challenging work, to enjoy what I'm doing and to build software that makes my clients happy. Sure, we could be like this other company and charge $100,000 for a project that's worth $5,000 but we won't do that. Why? Because it will inevitably come back to haunt us. In this business you have little more than your knowledge and your reputation and a tarnished reputation won't get you far. YMMV. Well, I`m actually no ripper either, the $100,000 and $5000 example is actually a little extreme as well. But what i just wanted to say is that we shouldn`t accept the minimum, but rather add just a bit to the sum. This is probably mainly just because I unfortunately do not do enough planning work, but for me most of the works kind of get to go bigger than they were ment to be. I`m not talking about new features (though these may come too, but that`s already another story), but rather just something that you thought will be easy to handle and then it turns out to be much bigger problem, but then it`s already a bit bigger problem to get the client pay more. Yes, I admit, probably that`s mainly my problem, but usually I get *little* jobs, which take week or a few and well, if I wanted to prepare it real well, then it would be +day or more. And there`s usually just not enough time, though I`m seriously considering doing it differently, better. Just some time ago (2 months to be exact), I was asked if I would be ready to take a small little one week project. At the time I was just staring to make money with php+mysql, so I trusted the web design firm which gave me the job. But it came out that it`s really, really big project actually. I`m still working on it and hope to get it ready in some days. Anyway, what am I saying here...it`s probably something to myself, start writing project descriptions! And as to talking about this one. Could you tell me how you usually prepare for projects, how long do your projects take on the average? Again, I think we're talking about different kinds of clients. Well, I just brought an example. energy or expertise to make a qualified decision. My experience is that a lot of these type of clients only speak to 1 to 3 firms. And these other firms are often not qualified - they don't understand the business world or don't even do programming. In fact, last week I spoke to the head of a You`re probably right about that, got to agree with you on this one. when talking about programming and php, well, you just can`t say it, can you? Most of the projects can be done even over the internet, no problems. My reality is different than your reality. I don't know if I want to trade places or not. grin Well, if you`re talking about telecommuting, then this is actually quite good way of working, for both parties. Firms get to pay a bit lower wages, no extra offices needed, etc and programmer, he can do it wherever he wants to. I`m working myself this way and I must say there`s nothing wrong with it. For firms it might be a bit frightening thought at first, but I know some pretty successful companies who`s programmers, almost all of them work out of office. And about that 5000 and 10 again, as i said, this difference is a bit too big to talk about. And actually I was talking about it just theoretically, I don`t charge my clients amounts that make them go broke, not at all, just few days ago made an offer to one real estate company, I once made them a cheap site, just in html, poor desig, etc and now, a year they wanted to improve it, make a total redesign and make the adding of houses, etc easier (keyword is database+php)+some more features. I made them a offer which I wasn`t sure about whether it would be too much or not. And they said yes withou thinking at all. Then I started thinking...if they would have gone to some firm, instead of talking to me (freelancer), they would have paid probably 3times more. So I`m not saying that we should take all we can get, but rather we should take the amount that we are ready to work for+some extra, which can be cut off, if the client doesn`t agree with the first offer. Amen. If you do good work for a fair price and make the experience pleasurable for your clients the work will come. It's like any business. People want to work with people they like and if your customers like you they'll mention you to others. Exactly Siim Einfeldt [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Ask the first client if they know of anyone who could utilize your skills. As an IC, you are more than just a coder; you are the marketing, sales, finance, and programming departments. Look online, post your resume, apply for jobs. In your application cover letter, state that you are fully qualified for the position (if you are) and let them know that you're available for contract work if that is acceptable to them. Go ahead and apply for the "full time" or "permanent" positions. Sometimes just getting your name out there and recognized can be invaluable. Not recommended for everyone, but it's worked for me a fair bit - develop a "hook." Something that sticks, something different, something.memorable. I started early, and "szii" was an intentionally hard name to type to pkill on a MUD (unless you type correctly, which many didn't.) *laugh* There's too many "Mike Oxford" types running around, and "Szii" seems to stick pretty well...so I use it. *shrug* -Szii/Mike - Original Message - From: stankusn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? Ok.I want to start doing outside (extra) contract work...independantly. I have had only one clientthey loved the work.and I am having problems finding more...I think I am just not looking in the right spotwhere would be a good spot to drum up bussinessdoesn't have to be a place onlinebut how did everyone get so many customers? Where do you get them? nick --- Nick.Stankus Software Engineer Logicon/Sterling Federal 402-232-7870 --- "There are two things that are infinite; Human stupidity and the universe. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Wade D" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? | When in doubt, go low - esp when you're just starting out. If you're a good | coder, start at USD$20. You may go from there once you're more comfortable | with the process, have a small list of clientele, and have refined your | working environment (it's a little different than working for a company.) | If you start too high, you risk prematurely damaging your reputation, as well | as having difficulty finding clients. Some places, like here in | California, you | need to stay within the "going rate" which is all over the place for a coder. | You'll have to evaluate it on a job-by-job basis. If you're starting out, | I wouldn't | go above $60/hr, but it's entirely up to you. If you don't contract on a | per project | basis, and stick to an hourly rate you have the option of raising that rate | at a | later time. If you do it on a per project basis, you can simply raise the | rate | between projects. If you're too high, and have to come down it looks bad. | Tactfully done, it can give the subtle illusion that they're getting a | "good deal" | on you. It's all about image at the negotiating table, and -percieved- value. | After that it's up to you to make it happen. | | Above all, watch them taxes. Independent Contractors get hit (in the US) | with a business tax as well as the expected income tax. 1099-MISC | income (ie, independent contract work) can really be a nasty shock if | you don't account for the extra tax. When I was first starting out, my first | year, I didn't know about it and ended up approx $10k in debt, as well as | being penalized for not making quarterly tax payments. Not a big debt, | but it was definately an unwelcome shock come April 15th. | | In this field your reputation is EVERYTHING. The customer is always right, | and you should do everything you can to make them FEEL good. Even if | thing's aren't going okay, as soon as they start doubting your skill, your | decisions, they may doubt using you. If they like you they'll return, | and often times will refer you to other companies. It's all about great code | and a "warm fuzzy" for the client. | | 'Luck | | -Szii | | At 11:23 AM 2/2/2001 -0600, you wrote: | So how do you know what to charge when youre independent and just starting? | | | _ | Do You Yahoo!? | Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com | | | -- | PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) | To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | | -- | PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) | To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
1) talk to the customer, in person if at all possible - get a CLEAR picture of exactly what they want. 2) write down every aspect of what they want 3) take each element of the site and estimate how many hours it will take you to accomplish it. 4) double the amount (your customer will cause that) 5) take those hours (for example 40 hours) and estimate how much of that time will account for your required monthly revenue. 6) bill that amount (divide by the number of hours if you want to use an hourly rate). that will do you untill you start hiring a number of people. As you go along you will be able to narrow down the estimated time involved. Make sure the customer knows exactly what you are providing for the amount they are paying. Another thing to consider in this whole discussion... the longer you code, the faster you produce and the less error catching (or tracking) you have to do... thus what takes a new programmer/developer 10 hours to accomplish may only take a seasoned developer with a handful of code snippets 3 hours. so while mr junior programmer may charge $25 per hour and $250 for a quick code change, the more experienced programmer can charge $80 per hour and bill the same total... comparing apples and oranges. Dave -Original Message- From: Wade D [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 12:23 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? So how do you know what to charge when youre independent and just starting? clipped -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
tOn Fri, 2 Feb 2001, johnny p. wrote: Hah! My wife has a formal education in graphics design. My web sites would look like crap without her extensive layout skills. :) I'm so lucky... Ah! kindered spirit My wife has a formal education in Mass Communication and Public Relations I wouldn't be in bussiness if she was not able make presentations to drum up clients ! BUT we still lack a graphic designer - don't think I can afford a second wife ;-) Cheers Tarique -- = B2B Application Providers http://www.sanisoft.com Vortal for Nagpur http://nagpurcity.net = -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Shane McBride wrote: I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good thread. :) I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about how to price it. Most of my other PHP projects have been done for small single owners businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic. Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn it, I am stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge them a REAL price because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of course didn't charge the client for my learning curve. I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is creating a web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create the database tables, etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic since the data content depends largely on the previous choices of the end-user. One or two tables with 20-30 fields. 5-6 pages of html and PHP. I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the contributors to this list and their opinions. TIA, Shane Just an observation from some people I know in the USA - they charge whatever they can get away with. How about honestly charging what you think you are worth ? Knowing how to use php means nothing - but if you know it well you will be worth a lot. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
I find this an interesting topic... One thing that we've found when looking for additional PHP programmers to add is that since PHP has exploded there are a lot of people out there coding in PHP that don't have a background in programming or some of the design considerations. We've looked at various places from techies.com to guru.com and haven't found that many PHP gurus out there. So in terms of skill level, what do you all see the going rate? I know I'm currently underpaid at $25/hour and I do ALL the PHP programming, project management, engineering, database theory etc...oh...and did I mention I do all the network support too? (I'm taking my CCNA in June...) so yeah...we're a starup what did you expect?! =) Comments? Disclaimer: I don't mean to offend anyone out there who codes in PHP. But from the experience that I've had trying to find someone who can really code clean, effecient stuff that plugs into the whole picture has been virtually non-existent...(if you do, please call! We have a few openings!) Thanks, -Jonathan Sharp Director of Technology - Imprev Inc. Renwick Development Group - Flyerware http://www.flyerware.com/ Phone: (425)688-9200 Cell: (425)766-1398 -Original Message- From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:40 PM To: Shane McBride Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? Hey Shane, This is a tricky issue, here's me (USD): $60/hr $30/hr if end result becomes open sourced (no strings) General discounts for features such as : fun,true non-profit,intelligent employer,learning curve and it all lives on a sliding scale depending on their ability to pay and my desire for work/money (time). Also, barter is usually an option. Usually hovers between 30-50 and one day this will go up :-) This is the most difficult part of the job, time estimates and pricing. Bah. "Just give me money and I'll do stuff." Regards, Philip Olson http://www.cornado.com/ On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 03:25:27PM -0500, Shane McBride wrote: I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good thread. :) I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about how to price it. Most of my other PHP projects have been done for small single owners businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic. Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn it, I am stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge them a REAL price because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of course didn't charge the client for my learning curve. I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is creating a web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create the database tables, etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic since the data content depends largely on the previous choices of the end-user. One or two tables with 20-30 fields. 5-6 pages of html and PHP. I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the contributors to this list and their opinions. TIA, Shane -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I don't really know any, apart from myself, and I've been just shy of being called a lying scumbag by a few HR companies over the years when they look at my resume ;-) This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80 an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I make here, which is more like US$20/hr Gfunk - http://www.gfunk007.com/ I sense much beer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering. - Original Message - From: "Jonathan Sharp" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:49 PM Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? I find this an interesting topic... One thing that we've found when looking for additional PHP programmers to add is that since PHP has exploded there are a lot of people out there coding in PHP that don't have a background in programming or some of the design considerations. We've looked at various places from techies.com to guru.com and haven't found that many PHP gurus out there. So in terms of skill level, what do you all see the going rate? I know I'm currently underpaid at $25/hour and I do ALL the PHP programming, project management, engineering, database theory etc...oh...and did I mention I do all the network support too? (I'm taking my CCNA in June...) so yeah...we're a starup what did you expect?! =) Comments? Disclaimer: I don't mean to offend anyone out there who codes in PHP. But from the experience that I've had trying to find someone who can really code clean, effecient stuff that plugs into the whole picture has been virtually non-existent...(if you do, please call! We have a few openings!) Thanks, -Jonathan Sharp Director of Technology - Imprev Inc. Renwick Development Group - Flyerware http://www.flyerware.com/ Phone: (425)688-9200 Cell: (425)766-1398 -Original Message- From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:40 PM To: Shane McBride Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? Hey Shane, This is a tricky issue, here's me (USD): $60/hr $30/hr if end result becomes open sourced (no strings) General discounts for features such as : fun,true non-profit,intelligent employer,learning curve and it all lives on a sliding scale depending on their ability to pay and my desire for work/money (time). Also, barter is usually an option. Usually hovers between 30-50 and one day this will go up :-) This is the most difficult part of the job, time estimates and pricing. Bah. "Just give me money and I'll do stuff." Regards, Philip Olson http://www.cornado.com/ On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 03:25:27PM -0500, Shane McBride wrote: I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good thread. :) I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about how to price it. Most of my other PHP projects have been done for small single owners businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic. Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn it, I am stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge them a REAL price because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of course didn't charge the client for my learning curve. I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is creating a web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create the database tables, etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic since the data content depends largely on the previous choices of the end-user. One or two tables with 20-30 fields. 5-6 pages of html and PHP. I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the contributors to this list and their opinions. TIA, Shane -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
"JG" == "Josh G" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I've never quite understood why employers seem to expect that a php/perl programmer should also be doing graphic design. They're quite unrelated activities using completely different skills. It's not something that's generally expected from other professions (when was the last time you saw an advert for an accountant that required they be proficient with Photoshop?) so why programmers? -robin (who can't draw for toffee) -- Robin Vickery. BlueCarrots, 14th Floor, 20 Eastbourne Terrace, London, W2 6LE -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
nah, it's not that they want me to, it's that they don't believe i can :) although my present employer is rather happy that i can draw and code, he saves a salary that way ;-) Gfunk - http://www.gfunk007.com/ I sense much beer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering. - Original Message - From: "Robin Vickery" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 3:43 AM Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? "JG" == "Josh G" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I've never quite understood why employers seem to expect that a php/perl programmer should also be doing graphic design. They're quite unrelated activities using completely different skills. It's not something that's generally expected from other professions (when was the last time you saw an advert for an accountant that required they be proficient with Photoshop?) so why programmers? -robin (who can't draw for toffee) -- Robin Vickery. BlueCarrots, 14th Floor, 20 Eastbourne Terrace, London, W2 6LE -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Yeah, I'm consulting though...but yes there are some other options...where does it say $80/hour in the US?! -Jonathan -Original Message- From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 6:05 PM To: Josh G Cc: PHP User Group Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? One thing to keep in mind is we're mixing up contract jobs and "real" jobs with contract jobs usually being much higher rates. Not sure on any specifics though but real jobs are pretty secure, eight hours a day ... so it's a tradeoff. Most (if not all) quotes thus far are in regard to contract jobs. Philip On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Josh G wrote: I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I don't really know any, apart from myself, and I've been just shy of being called a lying scumbag by a few HR companies over the years when they look at my resume ;-) This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80 an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I make here, which is more like US$20/hr Gfunk - http://www.gfunk007.com/ I sense much beer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering. - Original Message - From: "Jonathan Sharp" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:49 PM Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? I find this an interesting topic... One thing that we've found when looking for additional PHP programmers to add is that since PHP has exploded there are a lot of people out there coding in PHP that don't have a background in programming or some of the design considerations. We've looked at various places from techies.com to guru.com and haven't found that many PHP gurus out there. So in terms of skill level, what do you all see the going rate? I know I'm currently underpaid at $25/hour and I do ALL the PHP programming, project management, engineering, database theory etc...oh...and did I mention I do all the network support too? (I'm taking my CCNA in June...) so yeah...we're a starup what did you expect?! =) Comments? Disclaimer: I don't mean to offend anyone out there who codes in PHP. But from the experience that I've had trying to find someone who can really code clean, effecient stuff that plugs into the whole picture has been virtually non-existent...(if you do, please call! We have a few openings!) Thanks, -Jonathan Sharp Director of Technology - Imprev Inc. Renwick Development Group - Flyerware http://www.flyerware.com/ Phone: (425)688-9200 Cell: (425)766-1398 -Original Message- From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:40 PM To: Shane McBride Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? Hey Shane, This is a tricky issue, here's me (USD): $60/hr $30/hr if end result becomes open sourced (no strings) General discounts for features such as : fun,true non-profit,intelligent employer,learning curve and it all lives on a sliding scale depending on their ability to pay and my desire for work/money (time). Also, barter is usually an option. Usually hovers between 30-50 and one day this will go up :-) This is the most difficult part of the job, time estimates and pricing. Bah. "Just give me money and I'll do stuff." Regards, Philip Olson http://www.cornado.com/ On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 03:25:27PM -0500, Shane McBride wrote: I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good thread. :) I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about how to price it. Most of my other PHP projects have been done for small single owners businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic. Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn it, I am stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge them a REAL price because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of course didn't charge the client for my learning curve. I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is creating a web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create the database tables, etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic since the data content depends largely on the previous choices of the end-user. One or two tables with 20-30 fields. 5-6 pages of html and PHP. I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Isn't it illegal in the US to discuss rates in this manner? It's always been my understanding that The U.S. law specifically makes discussion of pricing between competitors (all or some) a federal offense. Am I taking this too literally? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
You are taking this WAY to seriously. What you are talking about is the Sherman Act that developed our current antitrust laws. Specifically you are talking about "price fixing", which is illegal in the US. If EVERY PHP coder in the US got together at a trade show and said "We will all demand $150.00 an hour no matter what" then THAT would be illegal. Me mentioning to you how much I charge is totally legal. This mainly applies to big businesses and large manufacturers - OPEC for example would be TOTALLY illegal in the US. --Joe On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 08:49:00AM -0500, Brian V Bonini wrote: Isn't it illegal in the US to discuss rates in this manner? It's always been my understanding that The U.S. law specifically makes discussion of pricing between competitors (all or some) a federal offense. Am I taking this too literally? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- --- Joe Stump, PHP Hacker, [EMAIL PROTECTED] -o) http://www.miester.org http://www.care2.com /\\ "It's not enough to succeed. Everyone else must fail" -- Larry Ellison _\_V --- -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just an observation from some people I know in the USA - they charge whatever they can get away with. How about honestly charging what you think you are worth ? Knowing how to use php means nothing - but if you know it well you will be worth a lot. Slight philosophical disagreement here - knowing PHP extremely well still doesn't make it worth anything, unless you can apply that knowledge to a client's problems and create solutions/applications that are valuable to them. Don't charge what you think you're worth. Wait, no. Charge what you think you're worth OR what the project is worth to the client, whatever is higher. If what you think you're worth is more than they want to (or can) pay, move on. You may think it's worth $3000. The client may think it's worth (and willing to pay) $30,000. As a matter of fact, you MAY not get the work if your price is too low (perceived value). There is a book out there called "million dollar consulting" (author=weiss I think) which might be a good read for list members, at least the chapter on pricing. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
I have over 6 years programming experience, almost 3 include PHP. I also have sound database knowledge. Where is the best place to find PHP consulting work? Mike -Original Message- From: Jonathan Sharp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 9:26 PM To: Philip Olson; Josh G Cc: PHP User Group Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? Yeah, I'm consulting though...but yes there are some other options...where does it say $80/hour in the US?! -Jonathan -Original Message- From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 6:05 PM To: Josh G Cc: PHP User Group Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? One thing to keep in mind is we're mixing up contract jobs and "real" jobs with contract jobs usually being much higher rates. Not sure on any specifics though but real jobs are pretty secure, eight hours a day ... so it's a tradeoff. Most (if not all) quotes thus far are in regard to contract jobs. Philip On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Josh G wrote: I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I don't really know any, apart from myself, and I've been just shy of being called a lying scumbag by a few HR companies over the years when they look at my resume ;-) This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80 an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I make here, which is more like US$20/hr Gfunk - http://www.gfunk007.com/ I sense much beer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering. - Original Message - From: "Jonathan Sharp" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:49 PM Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? I find this an interesting topic... One thing that we've found when looking for additional PHP programmers to add is that since PHP has exploded there are a lot of people out there coding in PHP that don't have a background in programming or some of the design considerations. We've looked at various places from techies.com to guru.com and haven't found that many PHP gurus out there. So in terms of skill level, what do you all see the going rate? I know I'm currently underpaid at $25/hour and I do ALL the PHP programming, project management, engineering, database theory etc...oh...and did I mention I do all the network support too? (I'm taking my CCNA in June...) so yeah...we're a starup what did you expect?! =) Comments? Disclaimer: I don't mean to offend anyone out there who codes in PHP. But from the experience that I've had trying to find someone who can really code clean, effecient stuff that plugs into the whole picture has been virtually non-existent...(if you do, please call! We have a few openings!) Thanks, -Jonathan Sharp Director of Technology - Imprev Inc. Renwick Development Group - Flyerware http://www.flyerware.com/ Phone: (425)688-9200 Cell: (425)766-1398 -Original Message- From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:40 PM To: Shane McBride Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? Hey Shane, This is a tricky issue, here's me (USD): $60/hr $30/hr if end result becomes open sourced (no strings) General discounts for features such as : fun,true non-profit,intelligent employer,learning curve and it all lives on a sliding scale depending on their ability to pay and my desire for work/money (time). Also, barter is usually an option. Usually hovers between 30-50 and one day this will go up :-) This is the most difficult part of the job, time estimates and pricing. Bah. "Just give me money and I'll do stuff." Regards, Philip Olson http://www.cornado.com/ On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 03:25:27PM -0500, Shane McBride wrote: I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good thread. :) I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about how to price it. Most of my other PHP projects have been done for small single owners businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic. Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn it, I am stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge them a REAL price because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of course didn't charge the client for my learning curve. I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doi
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying. I only asked because the HTML lists @ the HTML Writers Guild strictly prohibit this sort of discussion, their reason always having been that they are concerned about 'price fixing' laws. It always seemed a little overkill to me. Thanks, -Brian * -Original Message- From: Joe Stump [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 9:52 AM To: Brian V Bonini Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? You are taking this WAY to seriously. What you are talking about is the Sherman Act that developed our current antitrust laws. Specifically you are talking about "price fixing", which is illegal in the US. If EVERY PHP coder in the US got together at a trade show and said "We will all demand $150.00 an hour no matter what" then THAT would be illegal. Me mentioning to you how much I charge is totally legal. This mainly applies to big businesses and large manufacturers - OPEC for example would be TOTALLY illegal in the US. --Joe On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 08:49:00AM -0500, Brian V Bonini wrote: Isn't it illegal in the US to discuss rates in this manner? It's always been my understanding that The U.S. law specifically makes discussion of pricing between competitors (all or some) a federal offense. Am I taking this too literally? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- - Joe Stump, PHP Hacker, [EMAIL PROTECTED] -o) http://www.miester.org http://www.care2.com /\\ "It's not enough to succeed. Everyone else must fail" -- Larry Ellison _\_V -- - -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Of course, this might also be something to do with the fact that if one place is charging 80p/litre and one is charging 90p/litre, where are you going to spend your cash, given there's no difference between the petrol? -Original Message- From: thor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 01 February 2001 17:30 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? What you may be referring to is when competitors in a small market (or in a market with limited competition) compare their prices behind the scenes in order to keep the prices high. Which is what the oil companies are often accused of doing (ever wonder why gas prices are usually within a few cents or even identical between stations even though they're supposed competitors?). -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Yep, ain't it grand... I got hired on as a designer and somebody got the bright idea that I must be a programmer as well funny I don't remember that on my resume. Jerry Lake- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Designer Europa Communications - http://www.europa.com Pacifier Online - http://www.pacifier.com -Original Message- From: Robin Vickery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 3:43 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? "JG" == "Josh G" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I've never quite understood why employers seem to expect that a php/perl programmer should also be doing graphic design. They're quite unrelated activities using completely different skills. It's not something that's generally expected from other professions (when was the last time you saw an advert for an accountant that required they be proficient with Photoshop?) so why programmers? -robin (who can't draw for toffee) -- Robin Vickery. BlueCarrots, 14th Floor, 20 Eastbourne Terrace, London, W2 6LE -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Besides, sometimes I think that PHP is so easy to learn that we should be considered unskilled labor ;-) The skill is in the shaping. Any joe off the street can make an ugly sculpture. It takes talent and skill to make art... :p Chris
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
I agree 100%. It looks simple, but to write really good code you need to know your stuff. CB At 01:56 PM 2/1/01 -0600, Boget, Chris wrote: Besides, sometimes I think that PHP is so easy to learn that we should be considered unskilled labor ;-) The skill is in the shaping. Any joe off the street can make an ugly sculpture. It takes talent and skill to make art... :p Chris -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
If you can deal with the obscene cost of living, here in Silicon Valley, California you can make ~80/hr doing being just a webmaster. ~100/hr for a GOOD coder, and ~120+/hr for a really good "real language" coder. That's obviously without benefits, options, guaranteed income, vacation, sick days, etc. -Szii - Original Message - From: Jonathan Sharp [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Philip Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Josh G [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: PHP User Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 6:26 PM Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? Yeah, I'm consulting though...but yes there are some other options...where does it say $80/hour in the US?! -Jonathan -Original Message- From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 6:05 PM To: Josh G Cc: PHP User Group Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? One thing to keep in mind is we're mixing up contract jobs and "real" jobs with contract jobs usually being much higher rates. Not sure on any specifics though but real jobs are pretty secure, eight hours a day ... so it's a tradeoff. Most (if not all) quotes thus far are in regard to contract jobs. Philip On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Josh G wrote: I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I don't really know any, apart from myself, and I've been just shy of being called a lying scumbag by a few HR companies over the years when they look at my resume ;-) This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80 an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I make here, which is more like US$20/hr Gfunk - http://www.gfunk007.com/ I sense much beer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering. - Original Message - From: "Jonathan Sharp" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:49 PM Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? I find this an interesting topic... One thing that we've found when looking for additional PHP programmers to add is that since PHP has exploded there are a lot of people out there coding in PHP that don't have a background in programming or some of the design considerations. We've looked at various places from techies.com to guru.com and haven't found that many PHP gurus out there. So in terms of skill level, what do you all see the going rate? I know I'm currently underpaid at $25/hour and I do ALL the PHP programming, project management, engineering, database theory etc...oh...and did I mention I do all the network support too? (I'm taking my CCNA in June...) so yeah...we're a starup what did you expect?! =) Comments? Disclaimer: I don't mean to offend anyone out there who codes in PHP. But from the experience that I've had trying to find someone who can really code clean, effecient stuff that plugs into the whole picture has been virtually non-existent...(if you do, please call! We have a few openings!) Thanks, -Jonathan Sharp Director of Technology - Imprev Inc. Renwick Development Group - Flyerware http://www.flyerware.com/ Phone: (425)688-9200 Cell: (425)766-1398 -Original Message- From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:40 PM To: Shane McBride Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? Hey Shane, This is a tricky issue, here's me (USD): $60/hr $30/hr if end result becomes open sourced (no strings) General discounts for features such as : fun,true non-profit,intelligent employer,learning curve and it all lives on a sliding scale depending on their ability to pay and my desire for work/money (time). Also, barter is usually an option. Usually hovers between 30-50 and one day this will go up :-) This is the most difficult part of the job, time estimates and pricing. Bah. "Just give me money and I'll do stuff." Regards, Philip Olson http://www.cornado.com/ On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 03:25:27PM -0500, Shane McBride wrote: I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good thread. :) I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about how to price it. Most of my other PHP projects have been done for small single owners businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic. Now that I can actually
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Isn't it illegal in the US to discuss rates in this manner? It's always been my understanding that The U.S. law specifically makes discussion of pricing between competitors (all or some) a federal offense. Am I taking this too literally? Lucky most of us arnt in the US then isnt it. James -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Who cares, they could never bust us. So lets decide on this list that we are going to set (or "fix" if you will) the price of PHP work at $100/per hour. Oh just a second, someone's at the door... . Jade Ohlhauser [website architect]... http://bandwidthplace.com - Original Message - From: "James Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 2:10 PM Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? Isn't it illegal in the US to discuss rates in this manner? It's always been my understanding that The U.S. law specifically makes discussion of pricing between competitors (all or some) a federal offense. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Simply because both involve computers. Miles At 11:43 AM 2/1/01 +, Robin Vickery wrote: "JG" == "Josh G" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I've never quite understood why employers seem to expect that a php/perl programmer should also be doing graphic design. They're quite unrelated activities using completely different skills. It's not something that's generally expected from other professions (when was the last time you saw an advert for an accountant that required they be proficient with Photoshop?) so why programmers? -robin (who can't draw for toffee) -- Robin Vickery. BlueCarrots, 14th Floor, 20 Eastbourne Terrace, London, W2 6LE -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
"Shane McBride" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? There's no magic answer. And no offense, but if you categorize building business solutions delivered via the internet as "writing PHP" then your services probably shouldn't be priced at the higher end of the spectrum. There are so many factors - size of project, complexity, reusability of project components, turnaround time, your reputation, your speed, geography, etc. And there are many ways to price a project. We use a combination of flat rate pricing, estimates with a cap, hourly rates, retainer arrangements and some more creative terms depending on another long list of factors. As a PHP programmer and COO of a development and consulting shop, the emphasis on hourly rate is something that really amazes me. Not all programmers are created equal. A lot of clients don't recognize that. Some mistakenly believe that a $120/hr. programmer is 20% more productive than a $100/hr. programmer. Yet others think that a $200/hr. programmer must be twice as good as a $100/hr. programmer. I find that there is *no* correlation between hourly rate and the quality, productivity and value of a programmer. Sure, in other non_knowledge_based occupations, there may be a correlation, but in our biz I don't see one. Some say "you get what you pay for", but b/c this industry is new there are a lot of unscrupulous developers out there talking with naive uneducated clients. This is a dangerous mix. We've talked to a number of prospective clients who were charged $100,000+ for projects we could have done for $5,000. I couldn't sleep at night if we gouged clients like that and in the long run I think gouging clients will come back to bite you. We try to emphasize the total cost to the client along with the benefits of our proposed solutions. We try to state these benefits in terms of time savings, exposure, value-added capabilities, revenue and process improvement. When you can put what you can bring to the table in these terms the hourly rate becomes less critical and it makes it easier to compete with inferior competitors that compete on price alone. So, in general what should you charge based on your skills, experience and the types of things you are building? At a mimimum you should charge enough to cover the cost of your operation taking into account the risk of not staying fully utlized and adding on enough to make an acceptable amount of profit. If after arriving at that number it seems that your target market can't support that rate, reassess your strategy. As a rule of thumb, a consulting biz needs to charge 2.5 - 3 times the hourly rate payed to its employees. If you're a one person operation, you might think you need to charge less, but I wouldn't look at it that way. Unless you have clients breaking your door down and your clients aren't aware that there *are* others like you, you'll probably have to spend a significant amount of non-billable time dealing with running the business, doing marketing, sales and other business functions. And if you're alternative is working as an employee of another company and earning a steady paycheck (unless you just don't want to work for anyone else) you should plan on at least making enough to earn more than this alternative. If I was trying to gauge my value I would probably start low, build up word of mouth, client referrals and long term relationships and then increase my rates gradually over time if the market allows you to do so. In my area a green PHP programmer working part time might be able do contract work for $15 an hour while a seasoned guru might be able to command $150 an hour. Over time your programming skills, productivity and business knowledge should continuously increase. As a result your margins should increase, even if your so called "hourly rate" remains flat. Unless of course you hire other people. That may make your operation much more complex and difficult to manage than you may think. Plus, any development firm that hires a PHP programmer is reducing the pool of PHP programmers available to my company and I just can't have that. grin -- Steve Werby COO 24-7 Computer Services, LLC Tel: 804.817.2470 http://www.247computing.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
rant It comes down to one simple thing: You cannot know how much a project is worth to a client. If they're willing to pay you $5000, it's worth $5000, wether you think it's worth $500 or $5. If I buy a pack of basketball cards for $2 that has ten cards in it, then they're worth 20c each. If suddenly some collecter says "ohmigod you have a jordan rookie card in there, i'll give you $3000", it's now worth $3000, because that's what he is willing to part with to own it. In short, any skill, service, or product, is "worth" the amount of money you can exchange it for" this is how the stock market works (sometimes), it's how just about everything works. If they're willing to pay it, you should charge it. They can go somewhere else, noone is holding a gun to their heads. Everything is a game. You want the most money possible for it, they want it for the least amount of money, you compromise on something you can both live with, or you don't do business, and next job, you have to start over. Some people won't look at you if you charge less than $150/hr, some people won't look at you if you chargre more than 40 it's just the way it is. /rant Gfunk - http://www.gfunk007.com/ I sense much beer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering. - Original Message - From: "Steve Werby" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Shane McBride" [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 3:20 PM Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? "Shane McBride" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? There's no magic answer. And no offense, but if you categorize building business solutions delivered via the internet as "writing PHP" then your services probably shouldn't be priced at the higher end of the spectrum. There are so many factors - size of project, complexity, reusability of project components, turnaround time, your reputation, your speed, geography, etc. And there are many ways to price a project. We use a combination of flat rate pricing, estimates with a cap, hourly rates, retainer arrangements and some more creative terms depending on another long list of factors. As a PHP programmer and COO of a development and consulting shop, the emphasis on hourly rate is something that really amazes me. Not all programmers are created equal. A lot of clients don't recognize that. Some mistakenly believe that a $120/hr. programmer is 20% more productive than a $100/hr. programmer. Yet others think that a $200/hr. programmer must be twice as good as a $100/hr. programmer. I find that there is *no* correlation between hourly rate and the quality, productivity and value of a programmer. Sure, in other non_knowledge_based occupations, there may be a correlation, but in our biz I don't see one. Some say "you get what you pay for", but b/c this industry is new there are a lot of unscrupulous developers out there talking with naive uneducated clients. This is a dangerous mix. We've talked to a number of prospective clients who were charged $100,000+ for projects we could have done for $5,000. I couldn't sleep at night if we gouged clients like that and in the long run I think gouging clients will come back to bite you. We try to emphasize the total cost to the client along with the benefits of our proposed solutions. We try to state these benefits in terms of time savings, exposure, value-added capabilities, revenue and process improvement. When you can put what you can bring to the table in these terms the hourly rate becomes less critical and it makes it easier to compete with inferior competitors that compete on price alone. So, in general what should you charge based on your skills, experience and the types of things you are building? At a mimimum you should charge enough to cover the cost of your operation taking into account the risk of not staying fully utlized and adding on enough to make an acceptable amount of profit. If after arriving at that number it seems that your target market can't support that rate, reassess your strategy. As a rule of thumb, a consulting biz needs to charge 2.5 - 3 times the hourly rate payed to its employees. If you're a one person operation, you might think you need to charge less, but I wouldn't look at it that way. Unless you have clients breaking your door down and your clients aren't aware that there *are* others like you, you'll probably have to spend a significant amount of non-billable time dealing with running the business, doing marketing, sales and other business functions. And if you're alternative is working as an employee of another company and earning a steady paycheck (unless you just don't want to work for anyone else) you should plan on at least making enough to earn more than this alternativ
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
At 11:54 1/02/2001 -0800, Terrence Chay wrote: We should be prudent when discussing how much we charge for programming. I'm no lawyer but I believe it's okay to discuss hypotheticals, histories, and such, but remember that discussing wage rates may run against anti-trust regulation as evidence of collusion (at least in the United States). You'd better tell the unions that. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
This is a very good question and deal with it everytime I bid a project. Rule of thumb: Ask for what you are worth, if you don't you will wish you did. I have successfully bid on project with hourly rates ranging from $85 - $125. The $$$ range changes based on project needs(db work(+$), e-commerce(+$), etc), and other projects going on (a.k.a time availability: not a lot of time then the price goes up). Also I am not sure how much demographics has do with it, but I can see the numbers being higher on the coasts then in Missouri which is where we are located. Sincerely, Robert T. Covell President / Owner Rolet Internet Services, LLC Web: www.rolet.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 816.210.7145 Fax: 816.753.1952 -Original Message- From: Shane McBride [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 2:25 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good thread. :) I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about how to price it. Most of my other PHP projects have been done for small single owners businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic. Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn it, I am stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge them a REAL price because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of course didn't charge the client for my learning curve. I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is creating a web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create the database tables, etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic since the data content depends largely on the previous choices of the end-user. One or two tables with 20-30 fields. 5-6 pages of html and PHP. I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the contributors to this list and their opinions. TIA, Shane -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
I get flamed for this sometimes, but we don't normally charge an hourly rate for a project. After-project maintenance, yes, but for an initial project we normally quote a fixed price. The price will cover a minimal hourly rate to cover our costs, but we don't normally cap it on the top by saying "that's 200 hours at $125/hour so it's $25,000" (or whatever it would be). Rather, we try to gain as much info as we can about the project and it's relative value to the business. If someone is having us build a system that will net them a direct cost reduction of $2 million dollars per year, we will take that into consideration. Some people think that's gouging, but we don't see it like that. On the flip side of that, we've taken on projects at lower than normal rates because the job was cool, but the value to the business just wouldn't be all that much. No sense in charging someone $10,000 for an inventory system when they only do $20k/year in sales, for example. Shane McBride wrote: I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good thread. :) I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about how to price it. Most of my other PHP projects have been done for small single owners businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic. Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn it, I am stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge them a REAL price because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of course didn't charge the client for my learning curve. I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is creating a web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create the database tables, etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic since the data content depends largely on the previous choices of the end-user. One or two tables with 20-30 fields. 5-6 pages of html and PHP. I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the contributors to this list and their opinions. TIA, Shane -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
One thing to keep in mind is we're mixing up contract jobs and "real" jobs with contract jobs usually being much higher rates. Not sure on any specifics though but real jobs are pretty secure, eight hours a day ... so it's a tradeoff. Most (if not all) quotes thus far are in regard to contract jobs. Philip On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Josh G wrote: I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I don't really know any, apart from myself, and I've been just shy of being called a lying scumbag by a few HR companies over the years when they look at my resume ;-) This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80 an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I make here, which is more like US$20/hr Gfunk - http://www.gfunk007.com/ I sense much beer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering. - Original Message - From: "Jonathan Sharp" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:49 PM Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? I find this an interesting topic... One thing that we've found when looking for additional PHP programmers to add is that since PHP has exploded there are a lot of people out there coding in PHP that don't have a background in programming or some of the design considerations. We've looked at various places from techies.com to guru.com and haven't found that many PHP gurus out there. So in terms of skill level, what do you all see the going rate? I know I'm currently underpaid at $25/hour and I do ALL the PHP programming, project management, engineering, database theory etc...oh...and did I mention I do all the network support too? (I'm taking my CCNA in June...) so yeah...we're a starup what did you expect?! =) Comments? Disclaimer: I don't mean to offend anyone out there who codes in PHP. But from the experience that I've had trying to find someone who can really code clean, effecient stuff that plugs into the whole picture has been virtually non-existent...(if you do, please call! We have a few openings!) Thanks, -Jonathan Sharp Director of Technology - Imprev Inc. Renwick Development Group - Flyerware http://www.flyerware.com/ Phone: (425)688-9200 Cell: (425)766-1398 -Original Message- From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:40 PM To: Shane McBride Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? Hey Shane, This is a tricky issue, here's me (USD): $60/hr $30/hr if end result becomes open sourced (no strings) General discounts for features such as : fun,true non-profit,intelligent employer,learning curve and it all lives on a sliding scale depending on their ability to pay and my desire for work/money (time). Also, barter is usually an option. Usually hovers between 30-50 and one day this will go up :-) This is the most difficult part of the job, time estimates and pricing. Bah. "Just give me money and I'll do stuff." Regards, Philip Olson http://www.cornado.com/ On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 03:25:27PM -0500, Shane McBride wrote: I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good thread. :) I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about how to price it. Most of my other PHP projects have been done for small single owners businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic. Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn it, I am stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge them a REAL price because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of course didn't charge the client for my learning curve. I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is creating a web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create the database tables, etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic since the data content depends largely on the previous choices of the end-user. One or two tables with 20-30 fields. 5-6 pages of html and PHP. I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the contributors to this list and their opinions. TIA, Shane -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To c
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
I charge $50/hr. for any programming I do - if it's a small project. For larger projects, I work out a budget with my client. I'm in the process of releasing a new service to the web, though. Swift eNetwork. This project will allow my clients to register their website on the network and build their website without needing to do any programming (or without needing ME to do any programming, everything is dynamic) -- they choose their layouts, colors, etc. and put in their data and they're all set. If they want to add to their website's functionality, they add some pre-designed, customizable plugins - and suddenly they have a fully-dynamic, professional website in minutes. I read your post Josh... I think you are a very talented programmer - and graphic artist. I am lacking in the area of graphics and once I have established my network online I will be looking for someone to develop some more graphical appearing templates for my clients to use. The concept is relatively simple -- all of the elements used on the page are in tables so as long as the graphical templates can work with tables, they should function perfectly. Since the network isn't online, I can't show it to anyone. But I added a page to a site where you can see some screenshots if you are interested to see my work. Let me know what you think!! And if anyone is interested in helping me with some of the templates, please let me know...maybe we can work something out together... The release date is Valentine's Day... http://www.geocities.com/rswfire/enetwork/ Rob Swift International _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80 an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I make here, which is more like US$20/hr Remember though, if you're on a salary you'll get less an hour for ANYTHING (not just PHP) but it'll at least be consistent... Jason -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
I have an engineering background with 10yrs consulting experience and have seen many different type of fee structures (fixed project rate, hourly, percentage, profit-share etc.) The typical formula for determining rate is 2-3 times salary. The multiplier covers GA + a little profit margin. For example, a salaried employee getting $25/hr is equivalent to a consultant charging $50-75 or more an hour. There is a BIG difference between consultant, contract and employee:: - A true consultant is self sufficient, independant of the client and bears their own infrastructure costs (phone, office space/rent, software, computers equipment, invoicing accounting, training etc.); - Employee gets paid regardless; - Employees are entitled to holidays, benifits and possibly overtime; - Employees get training on paid company time; - Employee assumes little or no liability for their actions (very important difference); - Employee doesn't have to worry about all the "other" stuff. - Contract is somewhere between consultant and employee (big grey area here). Regards, - Scott There is no fixed rate or specific formula, it all depends on the marketplace and proficiency. This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80 an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I make here, which is more like US$20/hr Remember though, if you're on a salary you'll get less an hour for ANYTHING (not just PHP) but it'll at least be consistent... Jason -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- Scott A. Gerhardt P.Geo. Gerhardt Information Technologies [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
I hear ya' on those multi tallented skills you got...same here, but I on my resume I've only put my programming skills...I just let them find out about all that *other* stuff later...it makes for a good reason for a raise =) -Jonathan -Original Message- From: Josh G [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:52 PM To: PHP User Group Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I don't really know any, apart from myself, and I've been just shy of being called a lying scumbag by a few HR companies over the years when they look at my resume ;-) This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80 an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I make here, which is more like US$20/hr Gfunk - http://www.gfunk007.com/ I sense much beer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering. - Original Message - From: "Jonathan Sharp" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:49 PM Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? I find this an interesting topic... One thing that we've found when looking for additional PHP programmers to add is that since PHP has exploded there are a lot of people out there coding in PHP that don't have a background in programming or some of the design considerations. We've looked at various places from techies.com to guru.com and haven't found that many PHP gurus out there. So in terms of skill level, what do you all see the going rate? I know I'm currently underpaid at $25/hour and I do ALL the PHP programming, project management, engineering, database theory etc...oh...and did I mention I do all the network support too? (I'm taking my CCNA in June...) so yeah...we're a starup what did you expect?! =) Comments? Disclaimer: I don't mean to offend anyone out there who codes in PHP. But from the experience that I've had trying to find someone who can really code clean, effecient stuff that plugs into the whole picture has been virtually non-existent...(if you do, please call! We have a few openings!) Thanks, -Jonathan Sharp Director of Technology - Imprev Inc. Renwick Development Group - Flyerware http://www.flyerware.com/ Phone: (425)688-9200 Cell: (425)766-1398 -Original Message- From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:40 PM To: Shane McBride Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming??? Hey Shane, This is a tricky issue, here's me (USD): $60/hr $30/hr if end result becomes open sourced (no strings) General discounts for features such as : fun,true non-profit,intelligent employer,learning curve and it all lives on a sliding scale depending on their ability to pay and my desire for work/money (time). Also, barter is usually an option. Usually hovers between 30-50 and one day this will go up :-) This is the most difficult part of the job, time estimates and pricing. Bah. "Just give me money and I'll do stuff." Regards, Philip Olson http://www.cornado.com/ On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 03:25:27PM -0500, Shane McBride wrote: I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good thread. :) I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about how to price it. Most of my other PHP projects have been done for small single owners businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic. Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn it, I am stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge them a REAL price because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of course didn't charge the client for my learning curve. I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is creating a web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create the database tables, etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic since the data content depends largely on the previous choices of the end-user. One or two tables with 20-30 fields. 5-6 pages of html and PHP. I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the contributors to this list and their opinions. TIA, Shane -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-ma
