[Proto-Scripty] Re: future of script.aculo.us
What the future will be Prototype and script.aculo.us if my future developers want to choose only one library. Which should we choose for future ? and why ? Predicting the future is a mug's game. Right now, jQuery is huge. It has corporate sponsors, full-time staff, a massive userbase, and a lot of momentum. Prototype doesn't have corporate sponsors or full-time staff, I _think_ the userbase is rather smaller (but I don't have numbers for that and there are a LOT of people using it with Rails), and releases and new features aren't coming as quickly by comparison. Both have passionate individuals extending, contributing to, and using them. But all that could change in, seemingly, seconds. The community could take against a direction jQuery goes. A new library could appear that takes over the world, pushing both Prototype and jQuery to the sidelines. A megasponsor could decide that Prototype is the bee's knees and hire people to work on it full-time. If you review the replies in this thread, there's a clear theme: Teach fundamentals, not libraries. JavaScript is a rich and very powerful language that probably doesn't quite work the way your students think it does. Make sure they understand it. Make sure they understand the DOM -- not necessarily the details of the DOM API beyond a few basics, but the fundamentals of elements and trees and nodes and documents. Teach them how browsers work, and the nature and consequences (and advantages) of asynchronous communication between client and server. Teach them about JSON and basic XML. Teach them to seek, and read, details from primary sources like the ECMAScript specification, the various DOM specs, the CSS spec, the HTML5 spec, etc., rather than relying on meta-sources like w3schools (*shudder*). Do that, they'll have no trouble picking up any library they want to with just a couple of hours' work reading the API docs, kicking around the related tags on StackOverflow or the discussion group for the lib, and tinkering. Best, -- T.J. Crowder Independent Software Engineer tj / crowder software / com www / crowder software / com On Mar 24, 11:09 am, Ali.MD alimihando...@gmail.com wrote: thank you very much my question about future jQuery and prototype and some other javascript library is similar to each other I can not find a significant difference between them. is that right ? a agree jquery is better to teach. and we must to teach other javascript library with jQuery I'm worried about the future What the future will be Prototype and script.aculo.us if my future developers want to choose only one library. Which should we choose for future ? and why ? i dont worry about plugins and extensions because we can use all of them together ;) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Prototype script.aculo.us group. To post to this group, send email to prototype-scriptaculous@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to prototype-scriptaculous+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-scriptaculous?hl=en.
[Proto-Scripty] Re: future of script.aculo.us
The biggest difference between the two at their core is that Prototype directly modifies javascript's native objects (Array, Object, String, etc.) while jQuery does not. A more subtle difference is how the use of the $() function to address DOM objects. Prototype's $() receives a simple string (or list of strings) which match DOM element ID names, while jQuery's $() receives a valid CSS selector and creates a collection of matching elements (even if it's only 1 element in the case of $(#elementID) ). Prototype separates that approach into the $ $() function to create an Enumerable instance. There are plenty of other differences, in varying degrees of subtlety. But more important, i think, is what the libraries have in common: a very easy to learn way to perform several tasks on the same starting point target by chaining methods together.But since almost all libraries of this style provide that, i agree with other posts that it's probably more important to impress the fundamentals of Javascript so students know how/why the libraries work the way they do, and why these different approaches are both valid, and can, with care, co- exist. -joe t. On Mar 24, 6:09 am, Ali.MD alimihando...@gmail.com wrote: thank you very much my question about future jQuery and prototype and some other javascript library is similar to each other I can not find a significant difference between them. is that right ? a agree jquery is better to teach. and we must to teach other javascript library with jQuery I'm worried about the future What the future will be Prototype and script.aculo.us if my future developers want to choose only one library. Which should we choose for future ? and why ? i dont worry about plugins and extensions because we can use all of them together ;) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Prototype script.aculo.us group. To post to this group, send email to prototype-scriptaculous@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to prototype-scriptaculous+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-scriptaculous?hl=en.
[Proto-Scripty] Re: future of script.aculo.us
I also agree with TJ as I started developing before utility JS libraries started becoming useful and had to manually code all my AJAX requests (30-40 lines down to one - :-)) but because I had to code those requests manually I understand what Ajax.Request is doing under the hood and it allows me to be a better developer. /rant On a separate point - the classes that some potential applicants have taken teach them to be completely dependent on the utility JS library and to just drop in any widget/extension found on the web. This sometimes will have unforeseen effects on the code and/or load times, and sometimes the buy(or download) versus build question is never considered. /rant On Mar 19, 1:40 pm, P.J. pjfontil...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with T.J. We shouldn't be simply teaching just how to use a certain tool but when to use them. And then learning JavaScript as a language rather than merely being exposed to it via libraries is beneficial because then your students will understand what the libraries are doing. I think this is similar to the difference between low and high level languages. As for there being multiple libraries to choose from: why can't we use both Prototype and jQuery libraries at the same time? They are both useful in different situations, and jQuery's noConflict helps resolve issues it can have with Prototype. I haven't tested other library combinations, though, and can only attest to the ability to successfully use Prototype and jQuery together in the same project. I feel that I should point out that one cost often cited when discussing the usage of multiple libraries or components is the increased size and bandwidth required due to including more components in any given project. With web applications that cost is often offset by caching and only a concern on initial page/website loads. Regardless, I wish you the best in finding topics you can teach in a field that is constantly changing. I am concerned with college programs that churn out IT type graduates with skills that can easily be replaced through outsourcing or a 6-week seminar focused solely on learning best use practices for a certain tool set. On Mar 19, 6:10 am, T.J. Crowder t...@crowdersoftware.com wrote: Hi, I find that either/or choices tend to be false choices. Not always, but frequently enough that I've taught myself to stop and ask whether it's really either/or. (Especially since my brain tends to default that way -- either/or, black/white, right/wrong -- and so I have to keep reminding myself that the world is more interesting than that...) Perhaps a both/and solution? Teach the fundamentals of JavaScript and DOM manipulation, then as an adjunct, do a section on how you can use libraries to smooth out browser differences and get useful utility functions, and that's when you introduce jQuery, Prototype, possibly a couple of the others as well. There are a *lot* of libraries out there besides jQuery and Prototype: * YUI:http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/ * Closure:http://code.google.com/closure/library * Dojo:http://dojotoolkit.org/ * Any of several others:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_JavaScript_libraries You can even point out how they solve the same problems differently (and how they solve other problems much the same way). You could discuss the technical pros and cons of each, and talk about how technical pros and cons do not always dictate project decisions like we engineers tend to think they should -- e.g., there are other factors to consider, like stability, pace of development, style of development, etc. That would (to my mind) more thoroughly prepare the students for going out in the world and doing useful work, even if they end up using a library that you hadn't shown them at all. From a crass commercial standpoint, I have to agree with Yuval that out in the marketplace, in today's world, right this minute, your students will get more utility out of being familiar with jQuery than being familiar with Prototype. *IF* you had to teach just one library, but again, teaching one library isn't what I'd recommend anyway. FWIW, -- T.J. Crowder Independent Software Engineer tj / crowder software / com www / crowder software / com On Mar 19, 8:53 am, yuval dagan dag...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Although I used and will use prototype, It looks (to me) currently like JQuery is much more popular than prototype I say stick to JQuery but let them know about other frameworks. But thats only my opinion Yuval On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 4:58 AM, Ali.MD alimihando...@gmail.com wrote: Hi every1 I'm teacher of NIIT university and teach web technology in our web department I want to change and update some our courses For example in section of javascript framework We usually recommend jquery because its easy to learn. But i thing Prototype script.aculo.us
[Proto-Scripty] Re: future of script.aculo.us
Hi, I find that either/or choices tend to be false choices. Not always, but frequently enough that I've taught myself to stop and ask whether it's really either/or. (Especially since my brain tends to default that way -- either/or, black/white, right/wrong -- and so I have to keep reminding myself that the world is more interesting than that...) Perhaps a both/and solution? Teach the fundamentals of JavaScript and DOM manipulation, then as an adjunct, do a section on how you can use libraries to smooth out browser differences and get useful utility functions, and that's when you introduce jQuery, Prototype, possibly a couple of the others as well. There are a *lot* of libraries out there besides jQuery and Prototype: * YUI: http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/ * Closure: http://code.google.com/closure/library * Dojo: http://dojotoolkit.org/ * Any of several others: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_JavaScript_libraries You can even point out how they solve the same problems differently (and how they solve other problems much the same way). You could discuss the technical pros and cons of each, and talk about how technical pros and cons do not always dictate project decisions like we engineers tend to think they should -- e.g., there are other factors to consider, like stability, pace of development, style of development, etc. That would (to my mind) more thoroughly prepare the students for going out in the world and doing useful work, even if they end up using a library that you hadn't shown them at all. From a crass commercial standpoint, I have to agree with Yuval that out in the marketplace, in today's world, right this minute, your students will get more utility out of being familiar with jQuery than being familiar with Prototype. *IF* you had to teach just one library, but again, teaching one library isn't what I'd recommend anyway. FWIW, -- T.J. Crowder Independent Software Engineer tj / crowder software / com www / crowder software / com On Mar 19, 8:53 am, yuval dagan dag...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Although I used and will use prototype, It looks (to me) currently like JQuery is much more popular than prototype I say stick to JQuery but let them know about other frameworks. But thats only my opinion Yuval On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 4:58 AM, Ali.MD alimihando...@gmail.com wrote: Hi every1 I'm teacher of NIIT university and teach web technology in our web department I want to change and update some our courses For example in section of javascript framework We usually recommend jquery because its easy to learn. But i thing Prototype script.aculo.us are better in core and api What exactly is the difference between these two in future In support, popularity, features, developers ... Do you recommend me to switch our web team developers to this ? and/or students to learn this framework ? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Prototype script.aculo.us group. To post to this group, send email to prototype-scriptaculous@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to prototype-scriptaculous+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-scriptaculous?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Prototype script.aculo.us group. To post to this group, send email to prototype-scriptaculous@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to prototype-scriptaculous+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-scriptaculous?hl=en.
[Proto-Scripty] Re: future of script.aculo.us
I agree with T.J. We shouldn't be simply teaching just how to use a certain tool but when to use them. And then learning JavaScript as a language rather than merely being exposed to it via libraries is beneficial because then your students will understand what the libraries are doing. I think this is similar to the difference between low and high level languages. As for there being multiple libraries to choose from: why can't we use both Prototype and jQuery libraries at the same time? They are both useful in different situations, and jQuery's noConflict helps resolve issues it can have with Prototype. I haven't tested other library combinations, though, and can only attest to the ability to successfully use Prototype and jQuery together in the same project. I feel that I should point out that one cost often cited when discussing the usage of multiple libraries or components is the increased size and bandwidth required due to including more components in any given project. With web applications that cost is often offset by caching and only a concern on initial page/website loads. Regardless, I wish you the best in finding topics you can teach in a field that is constantly changing. I am concerned with college programs that churn out IT type graduates with skills that can easily be replaced through outsourcing or a 6-week seminar focused solely on learning best use practices for a certain tool set. On Mar 19, 6:10 am, T.J. Crowder t...@crowdersoftware.com wrote: Hi, I find that either/or choices tend to be false choices. Not always, but frequently enough that I've taught myself to stop and ask whether it's really either/or. (Especially since my brain tends to default that way -- either/or, black/white, right/wrong -- and so I have to keep reminding myself that the world is more interesting than that...) Perhaps a both/and solution? Teach the fundamentals of JavaScript and DOM manipulation, then as an adjunct, do a section on how you can use libraries to smooth out browser differences and get useful utility functions, and that's when you introduce jQuery, Prototype, possibly a couple of the others as well. There are a *lot* of libraries out there besides jQuery and Prototype: * YUI:http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/ * Closure:http://code.google.com/closure/library * Dojo:http://dojotoolkit.org/ * Any of several others:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_JavaScript_libraries You can even point out how they solve the same problems differently (and how they solve other problems much the same way). You could discuss the technical pros and cons of each, and talk about how technical pros and cons do not always dictate project decisions like we engineers tend to think they should -- e.g., there are other factors to consider, like stability, pace of development, style of development, etc. That would (to my mind) more thoroughly prepare the students for going out in the world and doing useful work, even if they end up using a library that you hadn't shown them at all. From a crass commercial standpoint, I have to agree with Yuval that out in the marketplace, in today's world, right this minute, your students will get more utility out of being familiar with jQuery than being familiar with Prototype. *IF* you had to teach just one library, but again, teaching one library isn't what I'd recommend anyway. FWIW, -- T.J. Crowder Independent Software Engineer tj / crowder software / com www / crowder software / com On Mar 19, 8:53 am, yuval dagan dag...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Although I used and will use prototype, It looks (to me) currently like JQuery is much more popular than prototype I say stick to JQuery but let them know about other frameworks. But thats only my opinion Yuval On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 4:58 AM, Ali.MD alimihando...@gmail.com wrote: Hi every1 I'm teacher of NIIT university and teach web technology in our web department I want to change and update some our courses For example in section of javascript framework We usually recommend jquery because its easy to learn. But i thing Prototype script.aculo.us are better in core and api What exactly is the difference between these two in future In support, popularity, features, developers ... Do you recommend me to switch our web team developers to this ? and/or students to learn this framework ? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Prototype script.aculo.us group. To post to this group, send email to prototype-scriptaculous@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to prototype-scriptaculous+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-scriptaculous?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Prototype script.aculo.us group. To post to this group, send email to
