[Python-Dev] Re: [OT] I'm unsubscribing from this tire fire (formerly known as python-dev)
Greetings list, I am not some wizard Py programmer, but a learner and the threads are a shame to the Python community. When i subscribed i really expected the list to be technical but i guess i read wrong. Do they build the Python community, making folks more encouraged to contribute to CPython? The community point is a factor which allowed us to stand out across tech stack groups in our own country but if upstream the situation is unfavourable i fear it will make Python lose one of it's greatest allies. Kind Regards, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer https://www.github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ Mauritius sent from gmail client on Android, that's why the signature is so ugly. On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, 09:46 Christian Heimes, wrote: > Y'all, > > trigger warning: strong opinion > > The Urban Dictionary defines the term "tire fire": > > A horrifying mess, either literally or figuratively > foul-smelling, that seems to last forever. > > The term describes my current view of python-dev perfectly. It has > always been a problematic and mentally draining place for, sometimes > even toxic. But the recent PEP-8 discussion trumps every past incident > (reference to US politics intended). > > > To every person still replying on the PEP-8 thread: > > You are making us sick and should be ashamed of yourself! > > And I don't mean 'sick' in the figurative sense. You are literally > hurting people who are spending their free and personal time to develop > open source software for you. I know of at least three cases among > Python core developers with symptoms like sleep disorder, tremor, > anxiety, and panic attacks. One core dev wrote publicly that they were > forced to take psychotropic medicine to counter a panic attack after > they have read just a few messages. > > > At one point I have even considered to retire from Python core > development completely. I'm profoundly disgusted and appalled by the > racist attitudes and self-importance of some people as well as an > unrelated incident on BPO last week. The two reasons I'm not leaving are > several core developers that I'm happy to call friends and Python > communities beyond predominantly male and Western participants on the > PEP-8 thread. Communities like PyLadies, PyCon Africa, PyLATAM, and > PyCon APAC make me proud and happy to be a member of the Python > community. I have met fantastic people at Python and OSS events in the > Caribbean, India, and East Europe. I don't want to abandon people I > cherish and grew fond of. > > > At least one other core developer has abandoned python-dev last week. > Others have stopped participating and posting on python-dev years ago. I > will follow their example now. > > Goodbye > Christian > ___ > Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org > To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ > Message archived at > https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/LR3RWME7NYAVAWGD2ZD5NPZAGL7VVI7K/ > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/QLPY4BRE5CLDGX5MNAMK3QWFVMDSNHR5/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] [OT] I'm unsubscribing from this tire fire (formerly known as python-dev)
Y'all, trigger warning: strong opinion The Urban Dictionary defines the term "tire fire": A horrifying mess, either literally or figuratively foul-smelling, that seems to last forever. The term describes my current view of python-dev perfectly. It has always been a problematic and mentally draining place for, sometimes even toxic. But the recent PEP-8 discussion trumps every past incident (reference to US politics intended). To every person still replying on the PEP-8 thread: You are making us sick and should be ashamed of yourself! And I don't mean 'sick' in the figurative sense. You are literally hurting people who are spending their free and personal time to develop open source software for you. I know of at least three cases among Python core developers with symptoms like sleep disorder, tremor, anxiety, and panic attacks. One core dev wrote publicly that they were forced to take psychotropic medicine to counter a panic attack after they have read just a few messages. At one point I have even considered to retire from Python core development completely. I'm profoundly disgusted and appalled by the racist attitudes and self-importance of some people as well as an unrelated incident on BPO last week. The two reasons I'm not leaving are several core developers that I'm happy to call friends and Python communities beyond predominantly male and Western participants on the PEP-8 thread. Communities like PyLadies, PyCon Africa, PyLATAM, and PyCon APAC make me proud and happy to be a member of the Python community. I have met fantastic people at Python and OSS events in the Caribbean, India, and East Europe. I don't want to abandon people I cherish and grew fond of. At least one other core developer has abandoned python-dev last week. Others have stopped participating and posting on python-dev years ago. I will follow their example now. Goodbye Christian ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/LR3RWME7NYAVAWGD2ZD5NPZAGL7VVI7K/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] Re: [Suspected Spam]Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments
On 6/07/20 2:56 am, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: Thing is, I'm sure I've used Americanisms and even the dreaded Academic Register, but I sure never noticed them! :-) Or, in non-American, "surely never noticed them". :-) -- Greg ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/QTY6SAAHLRW4CXQD7UUU7SQRJRKSJY5G/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] Re: [OT] Speaking of the recent PEP-8 change
On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 2:37 PM Stephen J. Turnbull < turnbull.stephen...@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote: > > Are you saying that people who split infinitives are usually > > black, > > Of course not. Base rates suggest they're mostly white. > I think that's not true. According to this, English speakers in top several locations are about the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population United States: 283M India: 125M Pakistan: 108M Nigeria: 79M Philippines: 64M United Kingdom: 60M Germany: 45M US and UK (and Germany) are majority white, but the others are pretty small minorities. So by eyeball, that seems to add up to a good number more black and brown English speakers than white ones. Of course... I confess, I don't have data on infinitive splitting rates in Nigeria versus UK. -- The dead increasingly dominate and strangle both the living and the not-yet born. Vampiric capital and undead corporate persons abuse the lives and control the thoughts of homo faber. Ideas, once born, become abortifacients against new conceptions. ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/7RWAJ7OK56SVLXAZVICKYVUZ4HZ2DXWT/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] [OT] Speaking of the recent PEP-8 change
Greg Ewing writes: > On 5/07/20 3:24 am, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > Amusingly, Strunk (1918) was perfectly happy with split > > infinitives, though he noted it centered whiteness. (Obviously > > he didn't put it that way, more along the lines of "some people > > will look down on you.") > Um... what? > > Are you saying that people who split infinitives are usually > black, Of course not. Base rates suggest they're mostly white. > and the people who look down on them are white? Doesn't it pretty much go without saying, that the people who look down on split infinitives are elite (and white), that white people look down on black achievements (despite eating them up in the mass media!), and that white supremacists literally live to look down on black people? There's no necessary relation between your two questions. Correlation, yes, but that doesn't help understanding here. > If so, it would seem that Strunk is actually standing up for black > people here. Indeed. One reason why I didn't and don't support that commit. > (I don't actually believe this has anything to do with race, > I'm just trying *to fully understand* your reasoning.) Aw, shucks, I'm so glad you asked! But this isn't the place. I filed off the obvious PII and put the content of the argument in my blog. First, before we click, let's all top up our beverages. This is not simple. It's complex, maybe even complicated. (That's a Zen-based argument against white supremacy.) https://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/Blog/20200706.020926.txt Sincere regards, Steve ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/R6QTYICWPLU6ZMHTI2ZLAZMYUUCAVMBW/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] Re: [Suspected Spam]Re: Recent PEP-8 change
Emily Bowman writes: > Whatever he meant, nothing about split infinitives is in my 1918 > original copy of Strunk's rules, I'm not sure what you mean by "copy of rules", but it's mentioned couple of times in the book. I'm referring to this passage, from http://www.gutenberg.org/files/37134/37134-h/37134-h.htm#Page_36 (you'll need to scroll down a ways): Split Infinitive. There is precedent from the fourteenth century downward for interposing an adverb between to and the infinitive which it governs, but the construction is in disfavor and is avoided by nearly all careful writers. The Gutenberg Project version claims to be the same as the 1918 version, except for the differences between typesetting of the time and a very small number of typo corrections. Steve ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/SYD2I7HOS7SPQX7VUXBFQL43CIP4KUDY/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] [Suspected Spam]Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments
MRAB writes: > On 2020-07-04 16:23, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > 3. Write in a comfortable dialect. (Exceptions: legalese and > > The Academic Register are strictly forbidden, even if you're > > native in one of those. :-) > I'd also add: Try to avoid regionalisms; aim for a broadly > "international" form of the language. Some words and phrases might be > specific to a certain region, or have different, possibly conflicting, > meanings elsewhere. I'm sympathetic, but I personally would give this its own number, probably 6. My reasoning starts from the fact that most Americans, at least, are not even aware that they have an accent! And few non- natives will any idea that there's no difference between "truck" in the mouth of an American and "lorry" in the mouth of most other English speakers (although that can be ameliorated by targeting the admonition specifically at native speakers). (I'm projecting from anecdotes, of course; I'm not sure how I'd acquire data on this.) I think deemphasizing this detail is on the side of caution. Following Strunk & White, or even choosing which of those rules to follow and which to ignore, is probably a lot easier for most people than identifying regionalisms. Or references to any subculture, such as my own "laying a burden of clarity and intelligibility we ourselves could not bear on non-native and non-Standard speakers" (compare any Christian Bible, Acts of the Apostles, 15:10). I did that because I thought it likely to be familiar to many of the more vociferous participants in the thread, but the sentence would have been much easier to parse if I'd avoided it. Thing is, I'm sure I've used Americanisms and even the dreaded Academic Register, but I sure never noticed them! :-) Steve ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/67NQ5CD65AHYXAQUZFKMZEIDSJOKSXKP/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-Dev] Re: Recent PEP-8 change
On 04/07/2020 21:23, MRAB wrote: On 2020-07-04 19:23, Paul Moore wrote: On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 at 17:48, MRAB wrote: > > On 2020-07-04 05:51, Greg Ewing wrote: > > On 4/07/20 4:33 am, Jim J. Jewett wrote: > >> If Bob and Alice seem neutral to you, would you do a double-take on Kehinde or Oladotun? > > > > Maybe we should use randomly generated names for hypothetical persons? > > > Ideally they should be short names, one or two syllables. Surely the obvious thing to do would be to use Monty Python characters? True, but if they were all called Eric it could be confusing. Yes, we'd have to call them Bruce to avoid confusion. -- Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/N3GPOQ4ZJPM2MEFCOJ4PLOMO6TWDEKD5/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
