[Python-Dev] Re: Steering Council update for February

[Christian Heimes]

On 10/03/2021 01.53, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 11:47 AM Damian Shaw
>  wrote:
>>
>>> Does 'master' confuse people?
>>
>> There's a general movement to replace language from common programming 
>> practises that derive from, or are associated with, the dehumanization of 
>> people. Such as master and slave, as well as whitelist and blacklist.
>>
> 
> Is that *actually* the origin of the term in this context, or is it
> the "master", the pristine, the original from which copies are made?
> There's no "slave" branch anywhere in the git repository.

There is some historical evidence that the developers of git adopted the
term from Bitkeeper. After all git was created when Bitkeeper changed
its pricing model back in mid of 2000s. Bitkeeper uses master and slave
terminology,
https://github.com/bitkeeper-scm/bitkeeper/blob/master/doc/HOWTO.ask#L232

> We are then going to modify the file on both
> the master and slave repository and then merge the work. For the sake
> of simplicity, we are doing work in the master repository.

Christian


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[Python-Dev] Re: Steering Council update for February

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 06:42:24PM -0800, Barry Warsaw wrote:

> The Steering Council unanimously believes this is the right thing to do.

Diversity is a wonderful thing. We should get some.


-- 
Steve
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[Python-Dev] Re: Steering Council update for February

[Barry Warsaw]

The Steering Council unanimously believes this is the right thing to do.  
Fortunately GitHub makes it very easy from their side.  We push a button and it 
makes the change for the repo and all PRs.  Then when you visit the repo page 
in GH, it tells you exactly what commands to run to make the change in your 
local repo.  It’s even cut-and-pasteable.

We want to be mindful of the timing, both so that folks have plenty of notice 
to update their scripts and recipes, but also to coordinate with the release 
managers so that the switch happens when it won’t break the release process.

Cheers,
-Barry

On Mar 9, 2021, at 16:27, Terry Reedy  wrote:
> 
> On 3/9/2021 3:27 PM, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
> 
>> The Steering Council just published the community update for February:
> 
> Thank you for posting this.
> 
>>The Steering Council discussed renaming the master branch to main
>>and the consensus was that we should do that.
> 
> I did not that this was an issue.  This will break 4 of my .bat files (update 
> repository and workspaces, build python.exes, run sphinx on docs,  run 
> coverage.) and, I presume, many other workflow scripts and bots.  What is the 
> upside?  ('next (version)' might be more accurately descriptive, but 'main' 
> works as the 'main branch we are working on'.) Does 'master' confuse people?
> 
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
> 
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[Python-Dev] Re: Steering Council update for February

[Filipe Laíns]

On Tue, 2021-03-09 at 16:46 -0800, Mariatta wrote:
> > >     The Steering Council discussed renaming the master branch to main
> > >     and the consensus was that we should do that.
> > I did not that this was an issue.  This will break 4 of my .bat files
> > (update repository and workspaces, build python.exes, run sphinx on
> > docs,  run coverage.) and, I presume, many other workflow scripts and
> > bots.  What is the upside?  ('next (version)' might be more accurately
> > descriptive, but 'main' works as the 'main branch we are working on'.)
> > Does 'master' confuse people?
> > 
> 
>  
> I assume the change will not be abrupt, and people will be notified of the
> change ahead of time, so we can adjust our scripts accordingly. 
> 
> There are some info about branch renaming here:  
> https://github.com/github/renaming

Hi Mariatta,

Have you considered not deleting the master branch and instead simply adding a
github workflow job that syncs main to master on pushes to main?
The master->main Github redirection is great but perhaps not the best option for
the CPython repo. I find it very useful for smaller projects, but for something
as big as CPython I feel it will still cause too much breakage, and a not that
trivial to notice one, too many people with too many workflows dependent on the
branch name.
Though, it can be argued the people that work on CPython and have such workflows
will likely be in the loop regarding such change and so it isn't a big deal.
Anyway, this was just something to consider, hopefully it was somewhat helpful
:)

Cheers,
Filipe Laíns


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[Python-Dev] Re: Steering Council update for February

[Brian Curtin]

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 17:54 Chris Angelico  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 11:47 AM Damian Shaw
>  wrote:
> >
> > > Does 'master' confuse people?
> >
> > There's a general movement to replace language from common programming
> practises that derive from, or are associated with, the dehumanization of
> people. Such as master and slave, as well as whitelist and blacklist.
> >
>
> Is that *actually* the origin of the term in this context, or is it
> the "master", the pristine, the original from which copies are made?
> There's no "slave" branch anywhere in the git repository.
>
> I detest these changes that create churn and don't actually solve any
> problems. They allow people to feel good about themselves for having
> "made a change", while actually making no useful change whatsoever
> (are disadvantaged people's lives going to be improved by this
> rename?). What next? Are we going to crack down on any courses that
> proclaim to help you to "master the Python language"? Does that, too,
> have to be renamed?


What an unfortunate response, but feel free to find something else to do
after the change has been made.

>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Steering Council update for February

[Chris Angelico]

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 12:09 PM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev
 wrote:
>
>
> On 10.03.2021 3:53, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 11:47 AM Damian Shaw
> >  wrote:
> >>> Does 'master' confuse people?
> >> There's a general movement to replace language from common programming 
> >> practises that derive from, or are associated with, the dehumanization of 
> >> people. Such as master and slave, as well as whitelist and blacklist.
> >>
> > Is that *actually* the origin of the term in this context, or is it
> > the "master", the pristine, the original from which copies are made?
> > There's no "slave" branch anywhere in the git repository.
>
> It is, actually, the ultimate origin of the term.
>
> A more immediate origin is the master-slave architecture (the master agent 
> initiates some operation and slave agents respond to it and/or
> carry it out).

I understand about master-slave architectures, where one device is
controlling another. That's not what I'm arguing here. Is the sense of
"pristine" or "original" derived from this too?

Other branches are not "slaved" to the master branch. They are copies
of it. It is a quite different meaning of the word.

ChrisA
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[Python-Dev] Re: Steering Council update for February

[Inada Naoki]

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:10 AM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev
 wrote:
>
> On 10.03.2021 3:53, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 11:47 AM Damian Shaw
> >  wrote:
> >>> Does 'master' confuse people?
> >> There's a general movement to replace language from common programming 
> >> practises that derive from, or are associated with, the dehumanization of 
> >> people. Such as master and slave, as well as whitelist and blacklist.
> >>
> > Is that *actually* the origin of the term in this context, or is it
> > the "master", the pristine, the original from which copies are made?
> > There's no "slave" branch anywhere in the git repository.
>
> It is, actually, the ultimate origin of the term.
>
> A more immediate origin is the master-slave architecture (the master agent 
> initiates some operation and slave agents respond to it and/or
> carry it out).
>

Petr Baudis (who named "master" branch) says its origin is "master
recording". So it is unrelated to master-slave.
https://twitter.com/xpasky/status/1272280760280637441

>
> Anyway, this is yet another SJW non-issue (countries other than US don't have 
> a modern history of slavery) so this change is a political
> statement rather than has any technical merit.
>

Yes. If we don't change the name, we need to pay our energy to same
discussion every year.
It is not productive. Let's change the name and stop further discussion.


-- 
Inada Naoki  
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[Python-Dev] Re: Steering Council update for February

[Edwin Zimmerman]

On 3/9/2021 8:03 PM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote:
> countries other than US don't have a modern history of slavery
Putting both politics and programming aside, this isn't quite so:  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline of abolition of slavery and 
serfdom#1950.E2.80.93present 

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[Python-Dev] Re: Steering Council update for February

[Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev]

On 10.03.2021 3:53, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 11:47 AM Damian Shaw
 wrote:

Does 'master' confuse people?

There's a general movement to replace language from common programming 
practises that derive from, or are associated with, the dehumanization of 
people. Such as master and slave, as well as whitelist and blacklist.


Is that *actually* the origin of the term in this context, or is it
the "master", the pristine, the original from which copies are made?
There's no "slave" branch anywhere in the git repository.


It is, actually, the ultimate origin of the term.

A more immediate origin is the master-slave architecture (the master agent initiates some operation and slave agents respond to it and/or 
carry it out).



Anyway, this is yet another SJW non-issue (countries other than US don't have a modern history of slavery) so this change is a political 
statement rather than has any technical merit.




I detest these changes that create churn and don't actually solve any
problems. They allow people to feel good about themselves for having
"made a change", while actually making no useful change whatsoever
(are disadvantaged people's lives going to be improved by this
rename?). What next? Are we going to crack down on any courses that
proclaim to help you to "master the Python language"? Does that, too,
have to be renamed?

ChrisA
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--
Regards,
Ivan

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[Python-Dev] Re: Steering Council update for February

[Chris Angelico]

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 11:47 AM Damian Shaw
 wrote:
>
> > Does 'master' confuse people?
>
> There's a general movement to replace language from common programming 
> practises that derive from, or are associated with, the dehumanization of 
> people. Such as master and slave, as well as whitelist and blacklist.
>

Is that *actually* the origin of the term in this context, or is it
the "master", the pristine, the original from which copies are made?
There's no "slave" branch anywhere in the git repository.

I detest these changes that create churn and don't actually solve any
problems. They allow people to feel good about themselves for having
"made a change", while actually making no useful change whatsoever
(are disadvantaged people's lives going to be improved by this
rename?). What next? Are we going to crack down on any courses that
proclaim to help you to "master the Python language"? Does that, too,
have to be renamed?

ChrisA
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[Python-Dev] Re: Steering Council update for February

[Mariatta]

>
> > The Steering Council discussed renaming the master branch to main
> > and the consensus was that we should do that.
> I did not that this was an issue.  This will break 4 of my .bat files
> (update repository and workspaces, build python.exes, run sphinx on
> docs,  run coverage.) and, I presume, many other workflow scripts and
> bots.  What is the upside?  ('next (version)' might be more accurately
> descriptive, but 'main' works as the 'main branch we are working on'.)
> Does 'master' confuse people?


I assume the change will not be abrupt, and people will be notified of the
change ahead of time, so we can adjust our scripts accordingly.

There are some info about branch renaming here:
https://github.com/github/renaming



On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 4:31 PM Terry Reedy  wrote:

> On 3/9/2021 3:27 PM, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
>
> > The Steering Council just published the community update for February:
>
> Thank you for posting this.
>
> > The Steering Council discussed renaming the master branch to main
> > and the consensus was that we should do that.
>
> I did not that this was an issue.  This will break 4 of my .bat files
> (update repository and workspaces, build python.exes, run sphinx on
> docs,  run coverage.) and, I presume, many other workflow scripts and
> bots.  What is the upside?  ('next (version)' might be more accurately
> descriptive, but 'main' works as the 'main branch we are working on'.)
> Does 'master' confuse people?
>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Steering Council update for February

[Damian Shaw]

> Does 'master' confuse people?

There's a general movement to replace language from common programming
practises that derive from, or are associated with, the dehumanization of
people. Such as master and slave, as well as whitelist and blacklist.

Github has decided on "main" being a suitable replacement:
https://github.com/github/renaming . I have no inside information on the
Python steering council, but I assume they are following Githubs guidance.

Hope this info helps,
(He / Him)
Damian

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 7:31 PM Terry Reedy  wrote:

> On 3/9/2021 3:27 PM, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
>
> > The Steering Council just published the community update for February:
>
> Thank you for posting this.
>
> > The Steering Council discussed renaming the master branch to main
> > and the consensus was that we should do that.
>
> I did not that this was an issue.  This will break 4 of my .bat files
> (update repository and workspaces, build python.exes, run sphinx on
> docs,  run coverage.) and, I presume, many other workflow scripts and
> bots.  What is the upside?  ('next (version)' might be more accurately
> descriptive, but 'main' works as the 'main branch we are working on'.)
> Does 'master' confuse people?
>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Steering Council update for February

[Titus Brown]

> On Mar 9, 2021, at 4:27 PM, Terry Reedy  wrote:
> 
> On 3/9/2021 3:27 PM, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
> 
>> The Steering Council just published the community update for February:
> 
> Thank you for posting this.
> 
>>The Steering Council discussed renaming the master branch to main
>>and the consensus was that we should do that.
> 
> I did not that this was an issue.  This will break 4 of my .bat files (update 
> repository and workspaces, build python.exes, run sphinx on docs,  run 
> coverage.) and, I presume, many other workflow scripts and bots.  What is the 
> upside?  ('next (version)' might be more accurately descriptive, but 'main' 
> works as the 'main branch we are working on'.) Does 'master' confuse people?

Hi Terry,

this is happening in many places - for example, see

https://sfconservancy.org/news/2020/jun/23/gitbranchname/
https://github.com/github/renaming

tl;dr ‘master’ has unpleasant connotations for many, so it’s being changed in 
many places/many projects.

best,
—titus

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[Python-Dev] Re: Steering Council update for February

[Terry Reedy]

On 3/9/2021 3:27 PM, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:


The Steering Council just published the community update for February:


Thank you for posting this.


The Steering Council discussed renaming the master branch to main
and the consensus was that we should do that.


I did not that this was an issue.  This will break 4 of my .bat files 
(update repository and workspaces, build python.exes, run sphinx on 
docs,  run coverage.) and, I presume, many other workflow scripts and 
bots.  What is the upside?  ('next (version)' might be more accurately 
descriptive, but 'main' works as the 'main branch we are working on'.) 
Does 'master' confuse people?


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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[Python-Dev] Steering Council update for February

[Pablo Galindo Salgado]

Hi everyone,

The Steering Council just published the community update for February:

https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/main/updates/2021-02-steering-council-update.md

As a reminder, we'll are trying to keep this up monthly. As you can see we
are mainly focusing on clearing the PEP backlog and to address ongoing
efforts and time-sensitive issues. Here you can find the text for the
update:

February 01

   -

   After more deliberation and consideration of all available information,
   the Steering Council accepted the Pattern Matching PEPs. The Steering
   Council agreed that high-quality documentation is crucial in this feature
   and therefore its presence should be required before the release. A
   response in the name of the Steering Council will be sent to python-dev
   addressing the decision and the Steering Council view of the process.
   -

   The Steering Council discussed Debian's Python distro issues. The
   Steering Council will collect and communicate where the concerns are to the
   Debian maintainers. Thomas started a draft of the communication that the
   Steering Council will review, complete and sign-off.

February
08

   -

   The Steering Council started the discussion of PEP 651. It was decided
   that the group will leave this open for next week to better deliberate and
   consider more information.
   -

   The Steering Council discussed the ongoing work on porting types in the
   standard library to heap-types. It was decided that through Pablo, the
   Steering Council will ask the core developers driving those changes to
   create an informational PEP and not to make any more changes in this area
   after beta 1, as per our general policy.
   -

   The Steering Council discussed adding a TOML module to the standard
   library. It was decided that maintainers should write a PEP. On the topic
   of the standard library, it was agreed that the Steering Council should
   present at the PyCon US 2021 Language Summit on the future of the standard
   library and Brett is going to gather data on what PRs are tied to which
   module, which modules are imported and used the most, commit churn to help
   start the planning so we can make data-driven discussions and decisions.
   -

   The acceptance notice for PEP 634 will be sent from the Steering Council
   email, and Thomas will send rejection notices to other competing PEPs that
   are therefore rejected.

February
15

[ The SC could not meet this week due to holidays in the US and Canada, and
the impossibility to find a common replacement date in the week ]
February
22

   -

   The Steering Council discussed PEP 651 request and has decided to reject
   it. An email with the rationale will be sent to the author and python-dev.
   -

   Ezio joined the Steering Council meeting today to give an update on the
   GitHub Migration. GitHub was dormant during the holiday months. Ezio and GH
   had a productive meeting a couple of weeks ago. He is working on the tool
   that will convert bpo issues into a format that the GH tool will accept. He
   will also work on a community update once the test repo is ready. Another
   sync up has been scheduled between Ezio and the SC on March 29th.
   -

   The Steering Council discussed renaming the master branch to main and
   the consensus was that we should do that. The group is going to discuss the
   timeline and how to approach this with other repositories under the Python
   organization in some future meeting.
   -

   The Steering Council discussed the Debian situation. The group discussed
   ways to approach the situation and how to coordinate with Debian
   maintainers so it can benefit the Python community at large. It was decided
   that the steering council will email the Debian maintainers to try to reach
   some common ground and discuss how to proceed.

Regards from cloudy London,
Pablo Galindo Salgado
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[Python-Dev] Re: Requesting Review for GH-24118 (Fix for bpo-27820)

[Senthil Kumaran]

On Sat, Mar 06, 2021 at 02:08:05PM +0700, Pandu Poluan wrote:
> I have submitted a PR, GH-24118 
> (https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/24118),
> on January 5.
> 
> It's a relatively simple patch that fixes smtplib.SMTP logic for AUTH LOGIN,
> alongside a fix for the test for that class.

I've reviewed it. I have a question on the change, and once that is addressed,
we could move forward with this.

The premise of the PR looks right.

Thanks,
Senthil

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[Python-Dev] Re: Need help to fix known Python security vulnerabilities

[Christian Heimes]

On 08/03/2021 22.02, Victor Stinner wrote:

Thanks Victor!

> == XML ==
> 
> Python XML parsers have at least two known vulnerabilities: "billion
> laughs" and "quadratic blowup" which are documented:
> https://docs.python.org/dev/library/xml.html#xml-vulnerabilities
> 
> The third party defusedxml module address these vulnerabilities:
> https://pypi.org/project/defusedxml/
> 
> But Python remains unsafe by default, issue reported 8 years ago:
> https://bugs.python.org/issue17239

I still maintain defusedxml and just released a new version earlier this
week. A couple of years ago I also worked on fixing libexpat (the parser
used by Python's stdlib), https://github.com/libexpat/libexpat/issues/46
. To move forward somebody could finish my patch for libexpat and then
hook it up in Python's stdlib.

I have no interest to work on the matter. My days of XML processing are
long gone. Fixing it for "fame and glory" doesn't motivate me either.

Christian



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