Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Victor Stinner]

2017-03-10 1:03 GMT+01:00 Victor Stinner :
> FYI we are already working on a PEP with Julien Palard (FR) and INADA
> Naoki (JP). We will post it when it will be ready ;-)

Ok, Julien wrote the PEP with the help of Naoki and myself. He posted
it on python-ideas for a first review:
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2017-March/045226.html

The PEP is now very complete and lists all requested changes on the
Python side. Let's discuss that on the python-ideas list ;-)

Victor
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Victor Stinner]

2017-03-10 0:35 GMT+01:00 Ned Deily :
> I don't know exactly what you mean by an "official GO" but I don't think 
> there has been any agreement yet since there hasn't been a specific proposal 
> yet to review.  I think what *was* agreed is that, in principle, translation 
> *sounds* like a good idea to follow up on elsewhere, i.e. on one of the 
> existing sigs, and then come back with a specific proposal for review.  
> Thinking about that a little more, I think the appropriate output of those 
> discussions should be a process PEP.  Then we can review the proposal 
> properly and also have the process clearly documented for the future.

FYI we are already working on a PEP with Julien Palard (FR) and INADA
Naoki (JP). We will post it when it will be ready ;-)

Victor
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Ned Deily]

[catching up on an older thread]

On Feb 27, 2017, at 05:31, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> 2017-02-25 19:19 GMT+01:00 Brett Cannon :
>> It's getting a little hard to tease out what exactly is being asked at this
>> point. Perhaps it's time to move the discussion over to a translation SIG
>> (which probably needs to be created unless the old
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/i18n-sig makes sense)? That way
>> active translators can figure out exactly what they want to ask of
>> python-dev in terms of support and we can have a more focused discussion.
> 
> Things are already happening in the background on other lists and
> other Python projects, but the problem is that the translation project
> seems "blocked" for some reasons. That's why I started the thread.
> 
> Example of a recent CPython PR, blocked:
> https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/195
> "bpo-28331: fix "CPython implementation detail:" label is removed when
> content is translated." opened 7 days ago by INADA Naoki (JP
> translation)
> 
> Example of  a docsbuild PR:
> https://github.com/python/docsbuild-scripts/pull/8
> "[WIP] Add french, japanese, and chinese", opened at 12 Dec 2016 by
> Julien Palard (FR translation)
> 
> See also Julien Palard's threads on python-ideas: no decision was
> taken, so the project is blocked.
> 
> According to this thread, there is an official GO for official
> translations, so these PR should be merged, right?

I don't know exactly what you mean by an "official GO" but I don't think there 
has been any agreement yet since there hasn't been a specific proposal yet to 
review.  I think what *was* agreed is that, in principle, translation *sounds* 
like a good idea to follow up on elsewhere, i.e. on one of the existing sigs, 
and then come back with a specific proposal for review.  Thinking about that a 
little more, I think the appropriate output of those discussions should be a 
process PEP.  Then we can review the proposal properly and also have the 
process clearly documented for the future.

--
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  n...@python.org -- []

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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Xiang Zhang]

I support having an official translated doc.

I have seen several groups trying to translate part of our official doc.
But their efforts are disperse and quickly become lost because they
are not organized to work towards a single common result and their
results are hold anywhere on the Web and hard to find. An official one
could help ease the pain.

But I agree we may need more details on the workflow.






At 2017-02-27 19:04:21, "Victor Stinner"  wrote:
>2017-02-24 16:10 GMT+01:00 Steven D'Aprano :
>>> …And then you need another one to
>>> check what was written.  These are practical problems.  There are
>>> extant services to support this, they are expensive in either money or
>>> time, and the docs produced usually lag behind English quite a bit.
>>
>> Is this a good use for some PSF funding? Would companies be willing to
>> invest money in translating Python documentation?
>>
>> Just because we're Open Source, doesn't mean that everything we do has
>> to be purely volunteer.
>
>IHMO translating the *whole* Python documentation at once by a
>professional translator can be very expensive, no somthing that the
>PSF would affort. Which language would you pick? Depending on what?
>
>We already have motivated translators for free who only ask us for the
>permission to make tiny changes to make their life simpler and make
>the doc more visible. I'm in favor of allowing them to translate and
>make the translated doc official ;-)
>
>IMHO a better usage of the PSF funding would be to organize some local
>sprints to translate the Python documentation. Such sprints are fun,
>cheap, and can be a nice opportunity to recruit free and motivated
>translators. We are looking for people involved to translate the doc
>the doc is updated, not only translate the doc once and go away.
>Right?
>
>Victor
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Victor Stinner]

2017-02-24 16:10 GMT+01:00 Steven D'Aprano :
>> …And then you need another one to
>> check what was written.  These are practical problems.  There are
>> extant services to support this, they are expensive in either money or
>> time, and the docs produced usually lag behind English quite a bit.
>
> Is this a good use for some PSF funding? Would companies be willing to
> invest money in translating Python documentation?
>
> Just because we're Open Source, doesn't mean that everything we do has
> to be purely volunteer.

IHMO translating the *whole* Python documentation at once by a
professional translator can be very expensive, no somthing that the
PSF would affort. Which language would you pick? Depending on what?

We already have motivated translators for free who only ask us for the
permission to make tiny changes to make their life simpler and make
the doc more visible. I'm in favor of allowing them to translate and
make the translated doc official ;-)

IMHO a better usage of the PSF funding would be to organize some local
sprints to translate the Python documentation. Such sprints are fun,
cheap, and can be a nice opportunity to recruit free and motivated
translators. We are looking for people involved to translate the doc
the doc is updated, not only translate the doc once and go away.
Right?

Victor
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Victor Stinner]

2017-02-24 13:20 GMT+01:00 Berker Peksağ :
>> If the original text (english) changes, untranslated text is
>> displayed, not outdated text.
>
> I think that's much worse than showing the outdated text. I don't see
> any point on showing half English and half French text if the reader
> can't understand the other half of it.

Sorry, it doesn't make sense to me.

If I wouldn't be to read english at all, and I have the choice between
a doc partially translated and a doc written fully in english (current
docs.python.org), the obvious choice for me would be to pick the
partially translated doc. It's better than nothing. No?

Victor
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Victor Stinner]

2017-02-25 19:19 GMT+01:00 Brett Cannon :
> It's getting a little hard to tease out what exactly is being asked at this
> point. Perhaps it's time to move the discussion over to a translation SIG
> (which probably needs to be created unless the old
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/i18n-sig makes sense)? That way
> active translators can figure out exactly what they want to ask of
> python-dev in terms of support and we can have a more focused discussion.

Things are already happening in the background on other lists and
other Python projects, but the problem is that the translation project
seems "blocked" for some reasons. That's why I started the thread.

Example of a recent CPython PR, blocked:
https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/195
"bpo-28331: fix "CPython implementation detail:" label is removed when
content is translated." opened 7 days ago by INADA Naoki (JP
translation)

Example of  a docsbuild PR:
https://github.com/python/docsbuild-scripts/pull/8
"[WIP] Add french, japanese, and chinese", opened at 12 Dec 2016 by
Julien Palard (FR translation)

See also Julien Palard's threads on python-ideas: no decision was
taken, so the project is blocked.

According to this thread, there is an official GO for official
translations, so these PR should be merged, right?

Victor
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[David Mertz]

On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 11:30 PM, Nick Coghlan  wrote:

> On 27 February 2017 at 14:03, David Mertz  wrote:
>
>> Could we have side-by-side English and whatever translated language? Then
>> also use some sort of typographic indicator like color to show when the
>> translation is out of date?
>>
>
> This kind of interface is what services like Transifex and Zanata offer
> translators (they also have things like phrase dictionaries, showing how
> particular terms have been translated elsewhere in the project).
>
> For the actual documentation, showing partial translations is the standard
> practice, as the assumption is that many readers will have *some* ability
> to read English, they just prefer to read their native language.
>

I think it would be at least as useful for readers as for the translators.
As you mention, many readers will have *some* English.  If they can look
from the left half to the right half of the screen in synchronized texts
(or perhaps top/bottom; whatever), they can read the English as well as
they are able while simultaneously  reading as much of their preferred
language as is available.  If their preferred language is available but
possibly not current, they could decide whether to try to understand the
difference in the canonical English version.

I really liked this in books I've read.  There are a fair number of
languages other than English where I can make a little bit of sense of the
text (but sadly only the one in which I'm proficient).  Nonetheless, I like
looking at the original text next to the English that I actually understand
fully.  Admittedly this is especially nice for something like poetry where
you can read for meter on one side then content on the other... that's not
the same concern as technical documentation, I realize.  But even if only
as an option, I think it would be a valuable interface for many readers.



-- 
Keeping medicines from the bloodstreams of the sick; food
from the bellies of the hungry; books from the hands of the
uneducated; technology from the underdeveloped; and putting
advocates of freedom in prisons.  Intellectual property is
to the 21st century what the slave trade was to the 16th.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Nick Coghlan]

On 27 February 2017 at 14:03, David Mertz  wrote:

> Could we have side-by-side English and whatever translated language? Then
> also use some sort of typographic indicator like color to show when the
> translation is out of date?
>

This kind of interface is what services like Transifex and Zanata offer
translators (they also have things like phrase dictionaries, showing how
particular terms have been translated elsewhere in the project).

For the actual documentation, showing partial translations is the standard
practice, as the assumption is that many readers will have *some* ability
to read English, they just prefer to read their native language.

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[David Mertz]

Could we have side-by-side English and whatever translated language? Then
also use some sort of typographic indicator like color to show when the
translation is out of date?

On Feb 26, 2017 6:39 PM, "Rob Cliffe"  wrote:

>
>
> On 24/02/2017 12:20, Berker Peksağ wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 12:01 AM, Victor Stinner
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> 2017-02-22 19:04 GMT+01:00 Serhiy Storchaka :
>>>
 What percent of lines is changed between bugfix releases? Feature
 releases?

 My largest apprehension is that the documentation can be outdated and
 quickly become degraded if main contributors left it.

>>> If the original text (english) changes, untranslated text is
>>> displayed, not outdated text.
>>>
>> I think that's much worse than showing the outdated text. I don't see
>> any point on showing half English and half French text if the reader
>> can't understand the other half of it.
>>
>> Fair point (especially if you substitute a language totally unrelated to
> English (e.g. Turkish, Finnish, Urdu, Japanese) for "French").  But it can
> be turned around:
> Popular demand would encourage whoever is maintaining the translated
> versions to catch up within a reasonable time when changes are made.
> It would nudge non-English readers to look at the untranslated English
> text and begin/develop their knowledge of English.
> Best wishes,
> Rob Cliffe
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Rob Cliffe]

On 24/02/2017 12:20, Berker Peksağ wrote:

On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 12:01 AM, Victor Stinner
 wrote:

2017-02-22 19:04 GMT+01:00 Serhiy Storchaka :

What percent of lines is changed between bugfix releases? Feature releases?

My largest apprehension is that the documentation can be outdated and
quickly become degraded if main contributors left it.

If the original text (english) changes, untranslated text is
displayed, not outdated text.

I think that's much worse than showing the outdated text. I don't see
any point on showing half English and half French text if the reader
can't understand the other half of it.

Fair point (especially if you substitute a language totally unrelated to 
English (e.g. Turkish, Finnish, Urdu, Japanese) for "French").  But it 
can be turned around:
Popular demand would encourage whoever is maintaining the 
translated versions to catch up within a reasonable time when changes 
are made.
It would nudge non-English readers to look at the untranslated 
English text and begin/develop their knowledge of English.

Best wishes,
Rob Cliffe
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Brett Cannon]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 at 11:59 INADA Naoki  wrote:

> Yes, right place to discussion is one of important things what I want.
> I haven't know about i18n-sig.  Is it better than docs-sig?
>

Probably not (I honestly forgot about docs-sig).


>
>
> Another thing I want is agreement to use project name looks like
> (semi)official project.
>
> We used "python-doc-jp" name on Transifex at first.  But since some people
> other than Japanese ask me to allow other languages,  I renamed it to
> "python-doc".
>

As Nick suggested, "python-docs" is probably a better name to be consistent.

-Brett


> And I reserved "python-docs" organization at Github.
>
> While it's better name for working together with other Language
> translators,
> I don't like that unofficial project use such name.
>
>
> Hosting at docs.python.org is desirable too, but it can be discussed
> later.
>
> Regards,
>
> On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 4:08 AM, Ned Deily  wrote:
> > On Feb 25, 2017, at 13:19, Brett Cannon  wrote:
> >> It's getting a little hard to tease out what exactly is being asked at
> this point. Perhaps it's time to move the discussion over to a translation
> SIG (which probably needs to be created unless the old
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/i18n-sig makes sense)? That way
> active translators can figure out exactly what they want to ask of
> python-dev in terms of support and we can have a more focused discussion.
> >
> > I agree.  We would need a more concrete and detailed proposal to really
> make any thoughtful decision.  That may also include getting approval from
> the PSF Board as they are ultimately responsible for the contents of
> python.org.  Without more detail, I don't have an opinion myself other
> than to note that, if we do something, it needs to be careful to not
> complicate or restrict the Python release process.
> >
> > --
> >   Ned Deily
> >   n...@python.org -- []
> >
> > ___
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Nick Coghlan]

On 26 February 2017 at 05:57, INADA Naoki  wrote:

> Yes, right place to discussion is one of important things what I want.
> I haven't know about i18n-sig.  Is it better than docs-sig?
>
>
> Another thing I want is agreement to use project name looks like
> (semi)official project.
>
> We used "python-doc-jp" name on Transifex at first.  But since some people
> other than Japanese ask me to allow other languages,  I renamed it to
> "python-doc".
> And I reserved "python-docs" organization at Github.
>

+1 from me for continuing to use those names (although you may want to
standardise on "python-docs", since the mailing list is docs-sig, and the
site is docs.python.org).

While it's not translation related, I'll also note an idea that came up at
the language summit a couple of years ago: moving the tutorial and the
howto guides *out* of the version-specific documentation and into a
separate version independent docs repository. As the stats Serhiy posted
suggest, these typically *don't* change a great deal between versions, and
when they do, the version differences are often going to be better handled
inline (e.g. "On versions older than 3.x, ") rather than by maintaining
multiple distinct versions of the document.

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[INADA Naoki]

Yes, right place to discussion is one of important things what I want.
I haven't know about i18n-sig.  Is it better than docs-sig?


Another thing I want is agreement to use project name looks like
(semi)official project.

We used "python-doc-jp" name on Transifex at first.  But since some people
other than Japanese ask me to allow other languages,  I renamed it to
"python-doc".
And I reserved "python-docs" organization at Github.

While it's better name for working together with other Language translators,
I don't like that unofficial project use such name.


Hosting at docs.python.org is desirable too, but it can be discussed later.

Regards,

On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 4:08 AM, Ned Deily  wrote:
> On Feb 25, 2017, at 13:19, Brett Cannon  wrote:
>> It's getting a little hard to tease out what exactly is being asked at this 
>> point. Perhaps it's time to move the discussion over to a translation SIG 
>> (which probably needs to be created unless the old 
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/i18n-sig makes sense)? That way 
>> active translators can figure out exactly what they want to ask of 
>> python-dev in terms of support and we can have a more focused discussion.
>
> I agree.  We would need a more concrete and detailed proposal to really make 
> any thoughtful decision.  That may also include getting approval from the PSF 
> Board as they are ultimately responsible for the contents of python.org.  
> Without more detail, I don't have an opinion myself other than to note that, 
> if we do something, it needs to be careful to not complicate or restrict the 
> Python release process.
>
> --
>   Ned Deily
>   n...@python.org -- []
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Ned Deily]

On Feb 25, 2017, at 13:19, Brett Cannon  wrote:
> It's getting a little hard to tease out what exactly is being asked at this 
> point. Perhaps it's time to move the discussion over to a translation SIG 
> (which probably needs to be created unless the old 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/i18n-sig makes sense)? That way 
> active translators can figure out exactly what they want to ask of python-dev 
> in terms of support and we can have a more focused discussion.

I agree.  We would need a more concrete and detailed proposal to really make 
any thoughtful decision.  That may also include getting approval from the PSF 
Board as they are ultimately responsible for the contents of python.org.  
Without more detail, I don't have an opinion myself other than to note that, if 
we do something, it needs to be careful to not complicate or restrict the 
Python release process.

--
  Ned Deily
  n...@python.org -- []

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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Brett Cannon]

On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 at 03:50 INADA Naoki  wrote:

> > Where should these translated docs live and how does one make it clear to
> > users reading them that doc bugs shouldn't be submitted to the main bug
> > tracker/github repo?
> >
>
> We setup github page.  See https://python-doc-ja.github.io/py36/ (note
> that
> version switcher won't work because this html is build for docs.python.jp
> .)
>
> I reserved "python-docs" organization.  So we can use URL like
> https://python-doc.github.io//3.6/
> (Because the organization name looks "something official", I won't use it
> until we get consensus about it.)
>
> For issue tracker, bugs.html must mention about translated document, before
> mention to normal issue tracker.
>

It's getting a little hard to tease out what exactly is being asked at this
point. Perhaps it's time to move the discussion over to a translation SIG
(which probably needs to be created unless the old
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/i18n-sig makes sense)? That way
active translators can figure out exactly what they want to ask of
python-dev in terms of support and we can have a more focused discussion.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Nick Coghlan]

On 25 February 2017 at 04:54, MRAB  wrote:

> On 2017-02-24 15:10, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> Nevertheless, I certainly wouldn't object if people wanted to try
>> writing Simple English translations of the docs. But I don't think they
>> would be as useful as translations into non-English.
>>
>> [snip]
>
> Would it be easier to make a translation into Esperanto, which is meant to
> be easier to learn than English?


Not really, as there are two main criteria for building a successful
translation community:

- potential audience for the translation (i.e. native speakers of the
target language)
- an interested pool of bilingual speakers to do the translation

Those numbers are far more favourable for native language translations to
widely spoken languages like Japanese, Mandarin Chinese, Spanish, and
French than they are for Esperanto.

When it comes to the idea of creating a Simple English translation of the
standard tutorial, my experience is that what folks are more inclined to do
on that front is to just write a new tutorial of their own specifically
targeting the audience they care about, rather than translating the
standard one.

That provides a lot more freedom to not only adjust the specific words
used, but also decide when and how to introduce different concepts based on
their particular target audience (e.g. teaching Python to a group of
mid-career scientific researchers or a group of professional engineers is
very different from teaching it to a classroom full of 6 year olds, or
students pursuing a computing degree at university, which in turn are very
different from teaching groups of interested people that have designed to
sacrifice their own time to attend a community run introduction to
programming workshop).

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Nick Coghlan]

On 25 February 2017 at 01:10, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 06:01:59AM -0500, tritium-l...@sdamon.com wrote:
> > …And then you need another one to
> > check what was written.  These are practical problems.  There are
> > extant services to support this, they are expensive in either money or
> > time, and the docs produced usually lag behind English quite a bit.
>
> Is this a good use for some PSF funding? Would companies be willing to
> invest money in translating Python documentation?
>

Translated documentation is certainly one of the things commercial open
source users appreciate, and hence redistributors are willing to fund in
the general case (see
https://access.redhat.com/documentation/ja/red-hat-enterprise-linux/ or
https://docs.openstack.org/ja/ for example)

For the specific case of the PSF, credible development grant ideas are
always worth considering (as those are an excellent way for the PSF to help
enable community activities).


> Just because we're Open Source, doesn't mean that everything we do has
> to be purely volunteer.
>

Right, but this kind of problem is also one of the major reasons I tend to
harp on about the fact that the commercial redistributors active in the
Python community aren't contributing as effectively as they could be, and
their existing customers aren't holding them accountable for the failure.
Python's origins as a "scripting language for Linux" means it is often
still perceived that way in the commercial sector and treated accordingly,
even though it has subsequently matured into a full-fledged cross-platform
application development and data analysis platform.

Even those of us already working for redistributors can't readily provide
that missing accountability, as any reasonable business is going to weigh
the costs of additional investment in any given area against the potential
for increased future revenue. That means the most effective pressure comes
from industry partners, governments, existing customers, and credible
potential customers (i.e. folks that have the ability to affect
redistributor revenue directly) rather than from redistributor staff or
community volunteers (as we're pretty much limited to using risk management
and hiring pipeline based lines of argument, rather than being able to push
the "future revenue potential" line directly).

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[MRAB]

On 2017-02-24 15:10, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 06:01:59AM -0500, tritium-l...@sdamon.com wrote:


My gut splits the difference on this issue; I suggest an approach to
meet in the middle – a version of the docs written in simplified
English (Not quite Up Goer Five simplified, but simplified.)


As an English speaker, my gut tells me that it would be much harder to
write *accurate* simplified English technical documentation than to
translate it into another language.

You have all the difficulties of translation, plus you're working under
a handicap of only using some (ill-defined?) subset of English.

Wikipedia offers some evidence supporting my view:

- the main English Wikipedia has 5 million articles, written by nearly
  140K active users;

- the Swedish Wikipedia is almost as big, 3M articles from only 3K
  active users;

- but the Simple English Wikipedia has just 123K articles and 871
  active users. That's fewer articles than Esperanto!

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias


Nevertheless, I certainly wouldn't object if people wanted to try
writing Simple English translations of the docs. But I don't think they
would be as useful as translations into non-English.


[snip]

Would it be easier to make a translation into Esperanto, which is meant 
to be easier to learn than English?


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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 06:01:59AM -0500, tritium-l...@sdamon.com wrote:

> My gut splits the difference on this issue; I suggest an approach to 
> meet in the middle – a version of the docs written in simplified 
> English (Not quite Up Goer Five simplified, but simplified.)

As an English speaker, my gut tells me that it would be much harder to 
write *accurate* simplified English technical documentation than to 
translate it into another language.

You have all the difficulties of translation, plus you're working under 
a handicap of only using some (ill-defined?) subset of English.

Wikipedia offers some evidence supporting my view: 

- the main English Wikipedia has 5 million articles, written by nearly 
  140K active users;

- the Swedish Wikipedia is almost as big, 3M articles from only 3K 
  active users;

- but the Simple English Wikipedia has just 123K articles and 871
  active users. That's fewer articles than Esperanto!

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias


Nevertheless, I certainly wouldn't object if people wanted to try 
writing Simple English translations of the docs. But I don't think they 
would be as useful as translations into non-English.


[...]
> For any language you want to support other than English, you need a 
> translator who is A: a python expert, B: fluent in English, and C: 
> fluent in the target language.

I disagree. You need a translator who is A: skilled at technical 
documentation, with B and C as above. They don't need to be a Python 
expert. We have plenty of Python experts that they can consult with and 
ask questions. But they need to know the right questions to ask:

"Python attributes, they're kind of like C members, right? I would 
translate 'member' into Klingon as 'gham', which means 'arm or leg', 
so I can use the same word for attribute."


> …And then you need another one to 
> check what was written.  These are practical problems.  There are 
> extant services to support this, they are expensive in either money or 
> time, and the docs produced usually lag behind English quite a bit.

Is this a good use for some PSF funding? Would companies be willing to 
invest money in translating Python documentation?

Just because we're Open Source, doesn't mean that everything we do has 
to be purely volunteer.



-- 
Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Nick Coghlan]

On 24 February 2017 at 23:05, INADA Naoki  wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 9:20 PM, Berker Peksağ 
> wrote:
> >
> > As someone who have spent a lot of time reviewing and committing
> > documentation patches, I'm strongly against on marking documentation
> > translations as official.
>
> I totally agree with you.  Our QA is not good as commit review of CPython.
> So what I want is (un|semi) official place for we share our efforts with
> other
> language translators.  (e.g. automated build, hosting translated
> documentation,
> and downstream customizations like adding link to official English
> document).
>
>
> > The Python documentation updates frequently
> > and it's simply not possible to keep them sync with the official
> > documentation. See
> > https://github.com/python/cpython/commits/master/Doc for the commit
> > history of the official documentation. You can easily compare it with
> > the translations by looking their GitHub repositories.
>
> While we don't translate mastar branch, I admit we behind several weeks or
> months from upstream.
> But since we moved most work on Travis, we can make it weekly or even
> daily.
> And we can share the automation with other Languages if we have a team.
>

Right, I think this is the key: helping the language translation
communities set up common flows so they can collaborate on the backend
automation, request process or tech changes in the main docs to simplify
translation (such as resolving the issue with "implementation detail" notes
disappearing when translated), and generally improving discoverability of
the translated versions.

In addition to the case of folks that struggle to read the English
documentation at all, I'd assume that there are also folks that would
appreciate the chance to check their own understanding against someone
else's translation of various topics.

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[INADA Naoki]

On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 9:20 PM, Berker Peksağ  wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 12:01 AM, Victor Stinner
>  wrote:
>> 2017-02-22 19:04 GMT+01:00 Serhiy Storchaka :
>>> What percent of lines is changed between bugfix releases? Feature releases?
>>>
>>> My largest apprehension is that the documentation can be outdated and
>>> quickly become degraded if main contributors left it.
>>
>> If the original text (english) changes, untranslated text is
>> displayed, not outdated text.
>
> I think that's much worse than showing the outdated text. I don't see
> any point on showing half English and half French text if the reader
> can't understand the other half of it.

In Japan, everyone learn English at school, but most people is not
good at English.
So 80% translated text helps us very much.

Especially, Sphinx split document by paragraph.  It's best granularity
for translation.

For example, there are some English paragraph remains in pathlib document
.
But it's very useful for Japanese not good at English.

>
> As someone who have spent a lot of time reviewing and committing
> documentation patches, I'm strongly against on marking documentation
> translations as official.

I totally agree with you.  Our QA is not good as commit review of CPython.
So what I want is (un|semi) official place for we share our efforts with other
language translators.  (e.g. automated build, hosting translated documentation,
and downstream customizations like adding link to official English document).


> The Python documentation updates frequently
> and it's simply not possible to keep them sync with the official
> documentation. See
> https://github.com/python/cpython/commits/master/Doc for the commit
> history of the official documentation. You can easily compare it with
> the translations by looking their GitHub repositories.

While we don't translate mastar branch, I admit we behind several weeks or
months from upstream.
But since we moved most work on Travis, we can make it weekly or even daily.
And we can share the automation with other Languages if we have a team.

I can do it without official agreement, but I don't want to do it until I get
consensus about domain name or github organization name.


>
> Also, there are a lot of better educational materials (e.g. Django
> Girls Tutorial) for people who don't speak English and have no
> previous programming experience. Even the tutorial contains several
> references to different programming concepts and programming languages
> such as C++.
>

Sadly, there are many medium level programmers who are not good
at English in Japan.  So translated library reference is very helpful too.

Regards,
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Berker Peksağ]

On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 12:01 AM, Victor Stinner
 wrote:
> 2017-02-22 19:04 GMT+01:00 Serhiy Storchaka :
>> What percent of lines is changed between bugfix releases? Feature releases?
>>
>> My largest apprehension is that the documentation can be outdated and
>> quickly become degraded if main contributors left it.
>
> If the original text (english) changes, untranslated text is
> displayed, not outdated text.

I think that's much worse than showing the outdated text. I don't see
any point on showing half English and half French text if the reader
can't understand the other half of it.

As someone who have spent a lot of time reviewing and committing
documentation patches, I'm strongly against on marking documentation
translations as official. The Python documentation updates frequently
and it's simply not possible to keep them sync with the official
documentation. See
https://github.com/python/cpython/commits/master/Doc for the commit
history of the official documentation. You can easily compare it with
the translations by looking their GitHub repositories.

Also, there are a lot of better educational materials (e.g. Django
Girls Tutorial) for people who don't speak English and have no
previous programming experience. Even the tutorial contains several
references to different programming concepts and programming languages
such as C++.

--Berker
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[INADA Naoki]

> Where should these translated docs live and how does one make it clear to
> users reading them that doc bugs shouldn't be submitted to the main bug
> tracker/github repo?
>

We setup github page.  See https://python-doc-ja.github.io/py36/ (note that
version switcher won't work because this html is build for docs.python.jp.)

I reserved "python-docs" organization.  So we can use URL like
https://python-doc.github.io//3.6/
(Because the organization name looks "something official", I won't use it
until we get consensus about it.)

For issue tracker, bugs.html must mention about translated document, before
mention to normal issue tracker.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Jim F.Hilliard]

I've recently been translating the Tutorial in Greek as a side thing that
also helps me catch some doc bugs :-). So it's an obvious +1 from me.

I really like this idea and would like to see it come to fruition. I think
some issues need to be addressed first, though:

Where should these translated docs live and how does one make it clear to
users reading them that doc bugs shouldn't be submitted to the main bug
tracker/github repo?

these are just two that popped in my head.

It would be great if this went forward, many people will find the path to
learning Python much much easier to walk if, at least the tutorial, was
written in a language they are comfortable in.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Jim F.Hilliard]

I've recently been translating the Tutorial in Greek as a side thing that
also helps me catch some doc bugs :-). So it's an obvious +1 from me.

I really like this idea and would like to see it come to fruition. I think
some issues need to be addressed first, though:

Where should these translated docs live and how does one make it clear to
users reading them that doc bugs shouldn't be submitted to the main bug
tracker/github repo?

these are just two that popped in my head.

It would be great if this went forward, many people will find the path to
learning Python much much easier to walk if the documentation was written
in a language they are comfortable in.



Best Regards,

Jim Fasarakis Hilliard
*d.f.hilli...@gmail.com  | dimitrisjim.github.io
*


  




On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 12:02 PM, Nick Coghlan  wrote:

> On 23 February 2017 at 02:15, Victor Stinner 
> wrote:
>
>> 2017-02-22 16:40 GMT+01:00 Antoine Pitrou :
>> > As long as you are asking for "moral" support and not actually
>> > vouching for the accuracy of third-party translations, then +1 from me.
>>
>> The main complain about these translations is the accuracy.
>>
>> My bet is that making these translations "official" and more visible
>> (at docs.python.org) would make them more popular, and so indirectly
>> help to recruit new contributors. Slowly, the number of translated
>> pages should increase, but the overall translation quality should also
>> increase. That's how free software are developed, no? :-)
>>
>
> +1 from me for these reasons, and those Facundo gives: we want folks to be
> able to learn at least the basics of Python *before* they learn English
> (even if learning English remains a pre-requisite for tapping into the full
> capabilities of both the language and its ecosystem).
>
> Cheers,
> Nick.
>
> --
> Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[tritium-list]

My gut splits the difference on this issue; I suggest an approach to meet in 
the middle – a version of the docs written in simplified English (Not quite Up 
Goer Five simplified, but simplified.)  It has the practical benefit of having 
more eyes to look at the docs to check for accuracy, it targets both English 
learners and children, and is something the current contributors to the 
documentation can do.

 

For any language you want to support other than English, you need a translator 
who is A: a python expert, B: fluent in English, and C: fluent in the target 
language.  …And then you need another one to check what was written.  These are 
practical problems.  There are extant services to support this, they are 
expensive in either money or time, and the docs produced usually lag behind 
English quite a bit.

 

From: Python-Dev [mailto:python-dev-bounces+tritium-list=sdamon@python.org] 
On Behalf Of Nick Coghlan
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2017 5:02 AM
To: Victor Stinner <victor.stin...@gmail.com>
Cc: Antoine Pitrou <solip...@pitrou.net>; Python Dev <python-dev@python.org>
Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

 

On 23 February 2017 at 02:15, Victor Stinner <victor.stin...@gmail.com 
<mailto:victor.stin...@gmail.com> > wrote:

2017-02-22 16:40 GMT+01:00 Antoine Pitrou <solip...@pitrou.net 
<mailto:solip...@pitrou.net> >:
> As long as you are asking for "moral" support and not actually
> vouching for the accuracy of third-party translations, then +1 from me.

The main complain about these translations is the accuracy.

My bet is that making these translations "official" and more visible
(at docs.python.org <http://docs.python.org> ) would make them more popular, 
and so indirectly
help to recruit new contributors. Slowly, the number of translated
pages should increase, but the overall translation quality should also
increase. That's how free software are developed, no? :-)

 

+1 from me for these reasons, and those Facundo gives: we want folks to be able 
to learn at least the basics of Python *before* they learn English (even if 
learning English remains a pre-requisite for tapping into the full capabilities 
of both the language and its ecosystem).

Cheers,

Nick.



-- 

Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com <mailto:ncogh...@gmail.com>|   
Brisbane, Australia

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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Nick Coghlan]

On 23 February 2017 at 02:15, Victor Stinner 
wrote:

> 2017-02-22 16:40 GMT+01:00 Antoine Pitrou :
> > As long as you are asking for "moral" support and not actually
> > vouching for the accuracy of third-party translations, then +1 from me.
>
> The main complain about these translations is the accuracy.
>
> My bet is that making these translations "official" and more visible
> (at docs.python.org) would make them more popular, and so indirectly
> help to recruit new contributors. Slowly, the number of translated
> pages should increase, but the overall translation quality should also
> increase. That's how free software are developed, no? :-)
>

+1 from me for these reasons, and those Facundo gives: we want folks to be
able to learn at least the basics of Python *before* they learn English
(even if learning English remains a pre-requisite for tapping into the full
capabilities of both the language and its ecosystem).

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Victor Stinner]

2017-02-22 19:04 GMT+01:00 Serhiy Storchaka :
> What percent of lines is changed between bugfix releases? Feature releases?
>
> My largest apprehension is that the documentation can be outdated and
> quickly become degraded if main contributors left it.

If the original text (english) changes, untranslated text is
displayed, not outdated text.

The french translation uses gettext. I don't know how other
translations are implemented.

Victor
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Facundo Batista]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 3:04 PM, Serhiy Storchaka  wrote:

> My largest apprehension is that the documentation can be outdated and
> quickly become degraded if main contributors left it.

This is why we focus in the Tutorial only, but also:

a) The tutorial is mostly the "entry point" to Python's doc, so being
it in Spanish for Spanish speakers lowers the barrier a lot

b) At some point you need to understand English docs, so translating
the library reference should not be that important

Regards,

-- 
.Facundo

Blog: http://www.taniquetil.com.ar/plog/
PyAr: http://www.python.org/ar/
Twitter: @facundobatista
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Serhiy Storchaka]

On 22.02.17 18:15, Victor Stinner wrote:

2017-02-22 16:40 GMT+01:00 Antoine Pitrou :

As long as you are asking for "moral" support and not actually
vouching for the accuracy of third-party translations, then +1 from me.


The main complain about these translations is the accuracy.

My bet is that making these translations "official" and more visible
(at docs.python.org) would make them more popular, and so indirectly
help to recruit new contributors. Slowly, the number of translated
pages should increase, but the overall translation quality should also
increase. That's how free software are developed, no? :-)


What percent of lines is changed between bugfix releases? Feature releases?

My largest apprehension is that the documentation can be outdated and 
quickly become degraded if main contributors left it.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Facundo Batista]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Victor Stinner
 wrote:

> There are a least 3 groups of people who are translating the Python
> documentation in their mother language (french, japanese, spanish).

We translated (and even printed/published) the Tutorial (we're
currently maintaining the Py2 and Py3 branches).

But only the tutorial, that is a smaller and steadier doc.


> For me, the most impotant point would be to give access to the
> translated documentation from docs.python.org. For example, have a
> dropdown list with available languages.

To clarify: you're proposing to *serve* the translated files from
d.p.o? Or just a link to where those are served now?

Thanks!

-- 
.Facundo

Blog: http://www.taniquetil.com.ar/plog/
PyAr: http://www.python.org/ar/
Twitter: @facundobatista
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Victor Stinner]

2017-02-22 16:40 GMT+01:00 Antoine Pitrou :
> As long as you are asking for "moral" support and not actually
> vouching for the accuracy of third-party translations, then +1 from me.

The main complain about these translations is the accuracy.

My bet is that making these translations "official" and more visible
(at docs.python.org) would make them more popular, and so indirectly
help to recruit new contributors. Slowly, the number of translated
pages should increase, but the overall translation quality should also
increase. That's how free software are developed, no? :-)

Victor
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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Antoine Pitrou]

Hi Victor,

On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 13:10:17 +0100
Victor Stinner  wrote:
> 
> IMHO a reference in this domain is PHP: PHP documentation is
> translated to at least 10 languages. See for example the "Change
> language: [...]" list at:
> 
>http://php.net/echo
> 
> I'm not asking you to take any technical decision here, I'm just
> asking for an official general "support" of translated documentation.

As long as you are asking for "moral" support and not actually
vouching for the accuracy of third-party translations, then +1 from me.

à bientôt

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Tres Seaver]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 02/22/2017 07:10 AM, Victor Stinner wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm a member of the french #python-fr IRC channel on Freenode: it's 
> common to meet people who don't speak english and so are unable to 
> read the Python official documentation. Python wants to be widely 
> available, for all users, in any language: that's also why Python 3 
> now allows any non-ASCII identifiers: 
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3131/#rationale
> 
> There are a least 3 groups of people who are translating the Python 
> documentation in their mother language (french, japanese, spanish). 
> They tried to make it more official, but their attempt didn't go far 
> yet. I'm writing this email to propose to officially support 
> translated versions of the documentation.
> 
> For me, the most impotant point would be to give access to the 
> translated documentation from docs.python.org. For example, have a 
> dropdown list with available languages.
> 
> IMHO a reference in this domain is PHP: PHP documentation is 
> translated to at least 10 languages. See for example the "Change 
> language: [...]" list at:
> 
> http://php.net/echo
> 
> I'm not asking you to take any technical decision here, I'm just 
> asking for an official general "support" of translated documentation.

+1 for the idea.


Tres.
- -- 
===
Tres Seaver  +1 540-429-0999  tsea...@palladion.com
Palladion Software   "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com
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[Python-Dev] Translated Python documentation

[Victor Stinner]

Hi,

I'm a member of the french #python-fr IRC channel on Freenode: it's
common to meet people who don't speak english and so are unable to
read the Python official documentation. Python wants to be widely
available, for all users, in any language: that's also why Python 3
now allows any non-ASCII identifiers:
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3131/#rationale

There are a least 3 groups of people who are translating the Python
documentation in their mother language (french, japanese, spanish).
They tried to make it more official, but their attempt didn't go far
yet. I'm writing this email to propose to officially support
translated versions of the documentation.

For me, the most impotant point would be to give access to the
translated documentation from docs.python.org. For example, have a
dropdown list with available languages.

IMHO a reference in this domain is PHP: PHP documentation is
translated to at least 10 languages. See for example the "Change
language: [...]" list at:

   http://php.net/echo

I'm not asking you to take any technical decision here, I'm just
asking for an official general "support" of translated documentation.


References to translated documentations:


Transiflex project:
https://www.transifex.com/python-doc/

Français (French, FR):
doc: https://www.afpy.org/doc/python/
source: https://github.com/AFPy/python_doc_fr
mailing list: http://lists.afpy.org/mailman/listinfo/traductions

Japanese (JP):
doc: http://docs.python.jp/3/
source: https://github.com/python-doc-ja/python-doc-ja

Spanish:
doc: http://docs.python.org.ar/tutorial/3/index.html

Previous discussions:

[Python-ideas] Cross link documentation translations (January, 2016):
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2016-January/038010.html

[Python-ideas] https://docs.python.org/fr/ ? (March 2016)
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2016-March/038879.html

Victor
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