Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling (Guido van Rossum)

[Sven R. Kunze]

Moreover, when I read "explicit self" is a wart, then I think, "you have 
absolutely no idea how fantastic 'explicit self' is".


Thus, inferring from a single data-point these seems to be personal 
"dislike lists".


In this regard, I tend to prefer Guido's one before any others if there 
is even one.


On 13.01.2017 03:40, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Guido van Rossum writes:

  > AFAIK the term comes from a piece by Andrew Kuchling titled "Python warts".
  > The topic now has its own wiki page:
  > https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWarts
  >
  > I believe that most of the warts are not even design missteps -- they are
  > emergent misfeatures, meaning nobody could have predicted how things would
  > work out.

More like surgical scars than warts, as I see it.

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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling (Guido van Rossum)

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Guido van Rossum writes:

 > AFAIK the term comes from a piece by Andrew Kuchling titled "Python warts".
 > The topic now has its own wiki page:
 > https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWarts
 > 
 > I believe that most of the warts are not even design missteps -- they are
 > emergent misfeatures, meaning nobody could have predicted how things would
 > work out.

More like surgical scars than warts, as I see it.

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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling (Guido van Rossum)

[Guido van Rossum]

AFAIK the term comes from a piece by Andrew Kuchling titled "Python warts".
The topic now has its own wiki page:
https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonWarts

I believe that most of the warts are not even design missteps -- they are
emergent misfeatures, meaning nobody could have predicted how things would
work out.

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 5:09 PM, Brett Cannon  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 at 15:22 Random832  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jan 12, 2017, at 17:39, Brett Cannon wrote:
>> > On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 at 20:56 Simon Lovell 
>> wrote:
>> > > I don't know what is meant by some insults having been thrown in.
>> > > Calling truthiness of non boolean data "Ugly" is an insult? It is
>> ugly.
>> >
>> > Now *that *is insulting to me. Once again, you are allowed to disagree
>> > and
>> > say you don't like how truthiness is handled in Python, but you flat-out
>> > stating something is ugly insults all the time and effort that me and
>> the
>> > other core developers have put into Python to try and make it the best
>> > language we can with the constraints we have to work within.
>>
>> Just out of curiosity... in your estimation, what is a "wart", and why
>> is the term "wart" used for it?
>
>
> That term has been used since before I got involved in Python so I don't
> know its history. To me, a "wart" is a design misstep; there were reasons
> at the time for the design but it has not held up as necessarily the best
> decision. So to me "wart" is not as bad as "ugly" as it tacitly
> acknowledges circumstances were quite possibly different back then and
> 20/20 hindsight is not something we have when making a decision. As a
> community we have collectively agreed some things are warts in Python
> because enough people over time have shared the opinion that something was
> a design misstep.
>
>
>> I mean, this is an accepted term that
>> the Python community uses to refer to things, that is not generally
>> regarded to be cause for an accusation of personally insulting anyone,
>> right? I haven't stepped into an alternate universe?
>
>
> You're focusing on the word and not how the word was presented. The fact
> that Simon started his email with a blanket statement basically saying his
> ideas were great and right automatically shows arrogance. And then
> continuing to say that something is ugly matter-of-factly just continued on
> that theme. I can normally mentally insert an "I think" phrase for people
> when they make a blanket statement like that when the rest of the email was
> reasonable, but the posturing of the email as a whole just didn't all for
> that.
>
> We can argue what adjective or noun could have been used forever, but the
> fact that it was delivered as if in judgment over those who put the time
> and effort to make the decision all those years ago doesn't ever feel good
> to the people being judged and ridiculed (and I know this can seem small,
> but as one of the people being judged regularly I can attest that the
> constant ridicule contributes to burnout).
>
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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling (Guido van Rossum)

[Brett Cannon]

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 at 15:22 Random832  wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 12, 2017, at 17:39, Brett Cannon wrote:
> > On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 at 20:56 Simon Lovell 
> wrote:
> > > I don't know what is meant by some insults having been thrown in.
> > > Calling truthiness of non boolean data "Ugly" is an insult? It is ugly.
> >
> > Now *that *is insulting to me. Once again, you are allowed to disagree
> > and
> > say you don't like how truthiness is handled in Python, but you flat-out
> > stating something is ugly insults all the time and effort that me and the
> > other core developers have put into Python to try and make it the best
> > language we can with the constraints we have to work within.
>
> Just out of curiosity... in your estimation, what is a "wart", and why
> is the term "wart" used for it?


That term has been used since before I got involved in Python so I don't
know its history. To me, a "wart" is a design misstep; there were reasons
at the time for the design but it has not held up as necessarily the best
decision. So to me "wart" is not as bad as "ugly" as it tacitly
acknowledges circumstances were quite possibly different back then and
20/20 hindsight is not something we have when making a decision. As a
community we have collectively agreed some things are warts in Python
because enough people over time have shared the opinion that something was
a design misstep.


> I mean, this is an accepted term that
> the Python community uses to refer to things, that is not generally
> regarded to be cause for an accusation of personally insulting anyone,
> right? I haven't stepped into an alternate universe?


You're focusing on the word and not how the word was presented. The fact
that Simon started his email with a blanket statement basically saying his
ideas were great and right automatically shows arrogance. And then
continuing to say that something is ugly matter-of-factly just continued on
that theme. I can normally mentally insert an "I think" phrase for people
when they make a blanket statement like that when the rest of the email was
reasonable, but the posturing of the email as a whole just didn't all for
that.

We can argue what adjective or noun could have been used forever, but the
fact that it was delivered as if in judgment over those who put the time
and effort to make the decision all those years ago doesn't ever feel good
to the people being judged and ridiculed (and I know this can seem small,
but as one of the people being judged regularly I can attest that the
constant ridicule contributes to burnout).
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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling (Guido van Rossum)

[Ethan Furman]

On 01/12/2017 03:21 PM, Random832 wrote:


Just out of curiosity... in your estimation, what is a "wart", and why
is the term "wart" used for it? I mean, this is an accepted term that
the Python community uses to refer to things [...]


I do not see any difference between calling something a "wart" and calling something 
"ugly".

The sticking point in this case is highlighted by your statement, "an accepted term 
*by the Python community*" [emphasis added].

In other words, it is equally offensive for a stranger to come in and start 
branding this or that as warts as it is for that same stranger to come in and 
start declaring this or that as ugly.

--
~Ethan~
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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling (Guido van Rossum)

[Random832]

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017, at 17:39, Brett Cannon wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 at 20:56 Simon Lovell  wrote:
> > I don't know what is meant by some insults having been thrown in.
> > Calling truthiness of non boolean data "Ugly" is an insult? It is ugly.
> 
> Now *that *is insulting to me. Once again, you are allowed to disagree
> and
> say you don't like how truthiness is handled in Python, but you flat-out
> stating something is ugly insults all the time and effort that me and the
> other core developers have put into Python to try and make it the best
> language we can with the constraints we have to work within.

Just out of curiosity... in your estimation, what is a "wart", and why
is the term "wart" used for it? I mean, this is an accepted term that
the Python community uses to refer to things, that is not generally
regarded to be cause for an accusation of personally insulting anyone,
right? I haven't stepped into an alternate universe?

The only thing that "python features regarded as 'warts'" and "the skin
condition called 'warts'" have in common, to connect them to even allow
such an analogy to form, is that they are both regarded as negative to a
commonly held sense of aesthetics - or, in a word, that they are 'ugly'.
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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling (Guido van Rossum)

[Brett Cannon]

On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 at 20:56 Simon Lovell  wrote:

> I feel I have to respond to this one.
>

And as list admin I feel I now have to reply to this to help explain why
people reacted the way they have.


>
>
> More than half of what I suggested could have and should be implemented.
>

It's this sort of attitude which puts people off. It is your *opinion* that
it should be implemented, not a matter of fact as you have stated it. Just
because something could be done doesn't mean it should be done. You're
allowed to have your opinion, but stating it as anything but your opinion
does not engender anyone to your opinion.


> In particular the truthiness of non-boolean data and the lack of a
> reasonable SQL syntax. Several other points have been discussed
> endlessly on the internet but without a satisfactory (IMO) answer being
> given.


I disagree, but that's fine since, as you said, that's your opinion and
you're allowed to not like the decisions we have made in designing Python.


> I don't know what is meant by some insults having been thrown in.
> Calling truthiness of non boolean data "Ugly" is an insult? It is ugly.
>

Now *that *is insulting to me. Once again, you are allowed to disagree and
say you don't like how truthiness is handled in Python, but you flat-out
stating something is ugly insults all the time and effort that me and the
other core developers have put into Python to try and make it the best
language we can with the constraints we have to work within.

Put another way, would you find it reasonable to walk up to me at a
conference and just say straight to my face "the way truthiness is
implemented is ugly"? Or would you more likely come up to me and say "I
don't happen to like how truthiness is implemented, could we have a chat as
to why it is the way it is so I can understand how it came to be this way?"
Notice how the former puts you on offensive footing like you're lecturing
me while the latter is you asking a question to try and understand why
something is the way it is that you happen to not like. One approach is
respectful of the volunteer effort me and everyone else puts into Python,
the other is not. This list exists to be open to people's ideas, but those
ideas must be communicated in a considerate, respectful manner or else they
will be ignored (and those three tenants are directly from the Code of
Conduct).

So I am politely asking you -- and reminding everyone else -- to simply be
respectful and considerate of everyone here who is trying to have an open
conversation. My rule of thumb is to talk as if you're asking a complete
stranger to do you a favour (which you in fact are since you're asking
strangers to read your email and to take its contents seriously). If we all
did that then we wouldn't have issues here with how people communicate.
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[Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling (Guido van Rossum)

[Simon Lovell]

I feel I have to respond to this one.


More than half of what I suggested could have and should be implemented. 
In particular the truthiness of non-boolean data and the lack of a 
reasonable SQL syntax. Several other points have been discussed 
endlessly on the internet but without a satisfactory (IMO) answer being 
given. I don't know what is meant by some insults having been thrown in. 
Calling truthiness of non boolean data "Ugly" is an insult? It is ugly.



Yes, I should have double checked the chained assignment before posting 
and perhaps including some things which weren't changing added negative 
value.



Regarding this comment. 'I use vim, which is very respectable, thank 
you. You'd like me to use "EditPlus 2" or equivalent', I think you 
should familiarise yourself with the "map!" function in vi and vim - put 
it in your .exrc file or .vimrc (vim only). e.g. "map! if if ^M^Mendif".


Regarding the with function, to those not familiar with what I was 
referring to that is a construct in Delphi and some other languages 
which works like this:


ReallyLongFileDescriptor=open("file")
with ReallyLongFileDescriptor:
 x=readline()   // note the lack of "ReallyLongFileDescriptor."
 print x

Delphi is even worse in that you can add more than one prefix in your 
with statement.


Yes, you can put #endif at the end of every "if" statement etc. That 
requires a checker in the vein of the ccheck of yore to be enforced. 
These things aren't desirable.

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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 02:23:06PM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano writes:
> 
>  > Giving a newcomer the Silent Treatment because they've questioned some 
>  > undocumented set of features not open to change is not Open, Considerate 
>  > or Respectful (the CoC). Even if their ideas are ignorant or ill-thought 
>  > out, we must give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are 
>  > making their comments in good faith rather than trolling.
> 
> Honest question: do you think that response has to be done in public?

"Has to be done in public" in the sense of being mandatory? No. There 
are pros and cons to both public and private messaging.

But in the sense of preferred, yes, I do think so.

Private responses could be the idiosyncratic response of a single weirdo 
who doesn't speak for the community. Public responses that don't get 
contradicted demonstrate community aggreement, and offer the OP a way 
to engage if they are willing to ask questions, learn from the answers, 
and moderate their tone.



-- 
Steve
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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling

[Chris Kaynor]

On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 12:02 PM, Xavier Combelle
 wrote:
> I did not read the thread, but it looks like the insult should be a red flag
> and a good time to stop immediately
> and baning the troll

Personally, when I read the original posting, there is quite a bit of
it that comes across as arrogant and ignorant, but none that comes
across as insulting. As such, I agree with some of the other replies
to this thread: some reply was needed to the original thread.

While the thread belonged on python-list, it was also not fully
off-topic for python-ideas: while the wording was of a review of
Python, and it was not worded as actually suggesting changes, it could
be read as indirectly proposing changes or new features. As such, I
feel that any reply to the thread should at least aim to point the
poster to the correct forum (in this case, python-list), and it is not
unreasonable to answer some of the points as though they are in fact
suggesting changes - likely with links to the rational of the original
decisions, or at least enough information for the original poster to
fairly easily find such rationals themselves (eg a tutorial page or
faq).
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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling

[Xavier Combelle]

I did not read the thread, but it looks like the insult should be a red
flag and a good time to stop immediately
and baning the troll


Le 10/01/2017 à 22:58, Guido van Rossum a écrit :
> Whether the intent was to annoy or just to provoke, the effect was
> dozens of messages with people falling over each other trying to
> engage the OP, who clearly was ignorant of most language design issues
> and uninterested in learning, and threw some insults in for good
> measure. The respondents should have known better.
>
> -- 
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido )
>
>
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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling

[Chris Barker - NOAA Federal]

 > the effect was dozens of messages with people falling over each
other trying to engage the OP,

Sure -- but all in one thread

> The respondents should have known better.

But we like to kibitz-- that's why (many of us) are on this list.

Anyway, all (most anyway) of the points brought up are :

A) not going to change
B) have been justified / explained in multiple blog posts, wiki pages,
and what have you.

So perhaps the best response would be:

"These are all fairly core Python design decisions -- do some googling
to find out why."

But it made me think that it would be good to have a single place that
addresses these kinds of thing to point people to.

There was the old "python warts" page, but this would be a "python
features page"

Maybe I'll start that if I find the roundtoits.

Or, if it already exists -- someone please point me to it.

-CHB
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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Steven D'Aprano writes:

 > Giving a newcomer the Silent Treatment because they've questioned some 
 > undocumented set of features not open to change is not Open, Considerate 
 > or Respectful (the CoC). Even if their ideas are ignorant or ill-thought 
 > out, we must give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are 
 > making their comments in good faith rather than trolling.

Honest question: do you think that response has to be done in public?

(Whether Guido intended "private" as an alternative or not is a red
herring, irrelevant to my question.)

I would prefer answers at GitHub:
https://github.com/python/overload-sig/issues/5.

but that's up to respondents.  (Will summarize responses privately and
in other channels to that issue.  This is an experiment for the Overload
SIG: https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/overload-...@python.org/.)

Steve
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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling

[Pavol Lisy]

On 1/11/17, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 07:29:12AM -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>> Was it really necessary for all the usual folks on this list to engage
>> with
>> the "Python review" threads? I think a much more effective response would
>> have been a resounding silence.
>
> Giving a newcomer the Silent Treatment because they've questioned some
> undocumented set of features not open to change is not Open, Considerate
> or Respectful (the CoC). Even if their ideas are ignorant or ill-thought
> out, we must give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are
> making their comments in good faith rather than trolling.

I think that in this case:

not all(people) == any(people)

So in my humble opinion it is good to say something by some (which
reflect CoC culture of python community) and be silent like zen master
(and most people did it) by others :)

BTW. This discussion could be inspiring and we could prepare PEP where
we could give some hints how to do (stupid?) things in unified and
clever way! ;)
For example:

1. if you want to have endblocks then use "# endfor" instead of "# for"

2. if you want to replace "self" by one letters then use  ᐠ (CANADIAN
SYLLABICS FINAL GRAVE) see
https://www.dcl.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/home/loewis/table-3131.html

etc.

Some editors could probably syntax highlight these constructs (and
maybe hide dot too in case of replacing self :P) in future (at least
in fancy mode :)

(
Some of us could test idea through vi conceal feature

for example to http://gnosis.cx/bin/.vim/after/syntax/python.vim
insert something like
syntax match pyNiceStatement "\https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas
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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 07:29:12AM -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> Was it really necessary for all the usual folks on this list to engage with
> the "Python review" threads? I think a much more effective response would
> have been a resounding silence.

Giving a newcomer the Silent Treatment because they've questioned some 
undocumented set of features not open to change is not Open, Considerate 
or Respectful (the CoC). Even if their ideas are ignorant or ill-thought 
out, we must give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are 
making their comments in good faith rather than trolling.

Shunning is a particularly nasty form of passive-aggression, as the 
person being shunned doesn't even get any hint as to what they have done 
to bring it on. It's one thing to ignore an unrepentant troublemaker or 
troll after numerous warnings -- that's the old Usenet "plonk" or 
kill-file treatment -- but greeting a newcome who has inadvertently (we 
must assume good faith) crossed a line in that way is hostile behaviour.

I don't think it is necessary for somebody to explicitly say the magic 
words "I propose this as a change..." for it to be obvious that the OP 
was suggesting his "review" to initiate a discussion for ways Python 
should change.

I don't know whether the OP has learned anything from his treatment 
here. But I know he wouldn't learn anything except that the Python 
community is closed-minded and unwelcoming if he had been greeted with 
silence.


-- 
Steve
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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling

[Ryan Birmingham]

I think that replying with an almost canned response, like the one Ned
proposed ("unless you are seriously proposing a change to the language,
this is not the right list."), would help discourage other list members
from responding where responses aren't necessary.

-Ryan Birmingham

On 10 January 2017 at 16:58, Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> Whether the intent was to annoy or just to provoke, the effect was dozens
> of messages with people falling over each other trying to engage the OP,
> who clearly was ignorant of most language design issues and uninterested in
> learning, and threw some insults in for good measure. The respondents
> should have known better.
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>
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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling

[Guido van Rossum]

Whether the intent was to annoy or just to provoke, the effect was dozens
of messages with people falling over each other trying to engage the OP,
who clearly was ignorant of most language design issues and uninterested in
learning, and threw some insults in for good measure. The respondents
should have known better.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling

[Nick Timkovich]

If you're proposing throwing half of Python's current syntax in the bin,
this isn't the right list either.

If not marginally malicious, I think it's delusional to think a post to
Language X's lists by someone who recommends multiple breaking changes
would ever be accepted. The correct response (if any) would be to use
another language or write your own transpiler that better agrees with your
aesthetic.

Nick

>
I don't like to use the term "trolling" except for people who are trying to
> annoy people.  I think the recent thread was misguided, but not malicious.
> I do agree that the thread should have ended at "unless you are seriously
> proposing a change to the language, this is not the right list."
>
>
> --Ned
>
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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling

[Ned Batchelder]

On 1/10/17 10:43 AM, Ivan Levkivskyi wrote:
> On 10 January 2017 at 16:29, Guido van Rossum  > wrote:
>
> I think a much more effective response would have been a
> resounding silence.
>
>
> I agree.
>

I don't like to use the term "trolling" except for people who are trying
to annoy people.  I think the recent thread was misguided, but not
malicious.  I do agree that the thread should have ended at "unless you
are seriously proposing a change to the language, this is not the right
list."

--Ned.

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Re: [Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling

[Ivan Levkivskyi]

On 10 January 2017 at 16:29, Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> I think a much more effective response would have been a resounding
> silence.
>

I agree.

--
Ivan
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[Python-ideas] How to respond to trolling

[Guido van Rossum]

Was it really necessary for all the usual folks on this list to engage with
the "Python review" threads? I think a much more effective response would
have been a resounding silence.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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