Re: Detection of ultrasonic side channels in mobile devices with Python?

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 10:51 AM, Steven D'Aprano
 wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 08:54:52 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> But this part sounds like prime quality tinfoil hat material:
>>
>>> Tell me how exactly ultrasonic side channels may activate remotely
>>> specific neural pathways implicated in aggressivity and how to block
>>> theses specific side channels from neuromodulating human behavior.
>
>
> I wouldn't entirely rule it out. (On the other hand, I wouldn't give it
> much credence in the absence of solid evidence either.) I'm too lazy to
> google it right now, but I recall that there's definitely evidence for
> inaudible *subsonic* frequencies being able to affect human emotions,
> mostly to induce feelings of disquiet and nameless dread.

Yeah, it might well be possible, but that doesn't change the fact that
the greatest interest will come from the same sort of people who turn
their PCs' screens to the wall to prevent them from spying during the
night, believe that contrails are mind control tools, and wear foil
hats to prevent the government from reading their thoughts.

ChrisA
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Re: Detection of ultrasonic side channels in mobile devices with Python?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2018-03-01, Dennis Lee Bieber  wrote:

>   The bandwidth normally used for voice grade telephone traffic is closer
> to 6kHz (say 300Hz to 6.3kHz)

Wow, that's pretty high -- where was that?

Back when I was designing telephony electronics in US in the late
80's, POTS bandwidth was 3KHz: 300-3.3K.  That same bandpass spec was
used for the audio stages in the first couple generations of AMPS
cellular mobile phones.

The Codecs used in digital telephony (e.g. a T1 trunk) used 7-bit
converts with 8KHz sampling, which means a cutoff frequency below
4KHz.

--
Grant


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Re: Detection of ultrasonic side channels in mobile devices with Python?

[Terry Reedy]

Instead of berating us for not answering an extremely obscure question, 
you should have use Ms SearchBox first, like I did to determine whether 
these are real subjects.


On 2/28/2018 5:31 PM, Etienne Robillard wrote:
If ultrasonic side channels are a threat to privacy, it is because smart 
phones were designed to exploit this precise feature.


(Near) Ultrasonic beacons are apparently a real and rather sneaky 
tracking mechanism.


https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2017/05/using_ultrasoni.html
This is actually about using near-ultrasonic, 18-20 KHtz, which can be 
produced by some TVs and other off-the-shelf gear and detected by phone 
microphones.  Read or ask *them* about what android/Dalvik system calls 
they used to access phone microphones.


Investigate for yourself whether any Python implementations for Android 
give you such access.


A great number of studies have shown that ultrasonic neuromodulation of 
the central nervous system can be exploited via brain-computer 
interfaces...


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4981830/ is a review 
article about clinical use for brain and nerve stimulation in patients. 
I am rather sure that they are talking about *real* ultrasound, well 
away from the audio range.  So this seems to be a completely separate topic.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: Detection of ultrasonic side channels in mobile devices with Python?

[Rick Johnson]

On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 4:34:11 PM UTC-6, Etienne Robillard wrote:

> A great number of studies have shown that ultrasonic
> neuromodulation of the central nervous system can be
> exploited via brain-computer interfaces...  It is cutting
> edge science however, and my knowledge on techniques for
> activating human behavior by remote means is limited.  I am
> only an amateur scientist/programmer with no experience
> whatsoever in Android or neuroscience.

I doubt anyone in this group will have knowledge in such a
high-tech experimental/theoretical field such as "remote
behavior modification"? And even if someone did, i'm sure
they'd wise enough to keep quiet about it. Because if such
technology exists today, then it would have military
applications, and thus, be highly classified.

And, just as a thought experiment, if we imagined that --
somehow -- you attained this specialized knowledge, and you
were _not_ already employed by one of the military labs --
oh boy! -- you would then become a threat to national
security, and be hunted by every spy agency on the face of
this planet. With that in mind, i think you're in way
over your head. And perhaps you should apply a reversed
transformation to your current vector path.

> However, the possibility of ultrasonic side channels to be
> exploited by a third-party remotely without the user
> consent seem highly likely.  I want to develop Python tools
> to provide experimental evidences that Android may exploit
> ultrasonic side channels to stimulate or impair the
> auditory cortex of someone.

That sounds malicious to me. Although, considering the
abysmal state of music these days... sometimes i wish my
smart phone _would_ impair my auditory cortex.

> In other words, I plan to disclose the ability of the US
> government to use mobile devices as psychoenergetics (non-
> lethal) bioweapons.

Why take the chance? Ditch the phone all together and live
free! Who cares about the lemmings anyway. The worms have
already ate into their brains.

Even if you provide evidence proving your claims to be true,
people (*AHEM*, "Sheeple") are so wedded to their smart
phones that even *IF* smart phones caused chronic explosive
diarrhea, i seriously doubt anyone would put their phone down
for more than five minutes.

We're talking about OCD on a _galactic_ scale here, my
friend. In fact, smart phone users have become so OCD about
their phones, that soon they plan to borrow the NRA's slogan
(slightly modified, of course):

'From my *COLD*. *DEAD*. *BROWN*. *HAND*."

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Re: Detection of ultrasonic side channels in mobile devices with Python?

[Ned Batchelder]

On 2/28/18 7:01 PM, Etienne Robillard wrote:


 What do rats find rewarding in play fighting?


This is well outside the topics for this list.

--Ned.



Le 2018-02-28 à 18:29, Chris Angelico a écrit :

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Steven D'Aprano
 wrote:

I'd go further... what gave you the idea that ANYONE is an expert on
ultrasonic activation of neural pathways?
Definitely tinfoil hat material here; expertise is completely 
immaterial.


ChrisA




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Re: Detection of ultrasonic side channels in mobile devices with Python?

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 08:54:52 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

> But this part sounds like prime quality tinfoil hat material:
> 
>> Tell me how exactly ultrasonic side channels may activate remotely
>> specific neural pathways implicated in aggressivity and how to block
>> theses specific side channels from neuromodulating human behavior.


I wouldn't entirely rule it out. (On the other hand, I wouldn't give it 
much credence in the absence of solid evidence either.) I'm too lazy to 
google it right now, but I recall that there's definitely evidence for 
inaudible *subsonic* frequencies being able to affect human emotions, 
mostly to induce feelings of disquiet and nameless dread.

I recall a panel of US scientists in the 1980s trying to work out how to 
protect long-lived nuclear waste from inquisitive humans for periods of 
many millions of years. Obviously Keep Out signs aren't going to do the 
job, so one of the ideas they were tossing around was to surround the 
area in artificial rock carved into shapes which would generate the 
appropriate subsonic frequencies when the wind blew.

Of course it is only a matter of time before malware, spyware, adware and 
hostile-national-security-ware[1] takes advantage of ultrasonic side 
channels to screw us over however they can. Including the US government. 
But I think the idea that the mobile phone manufacturers *intentionally* 
built phones with this capability in order to give the US government the 
ability to weaponise people's phones against them is sheer nuttiness.



[1] In the current political climate, I think it is safe to say that 
nearly all national security ware is hostile, and every one of us are the 
targets.

-- 
Steve

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https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Detection of ultrasonic side channels in mobile devices with Python?

[John Gordon]

In  Chris Angelico 
 writes:

> > Tell me how exactly ultrasonic side channels may activate remotely specific
> > neural pathways implicated in aggressivity and how to block theses specific
> > side channels from neuromodulating human behavior.

> Should be easy to find some whack-job newsgroups that would love to
> discuss that aspect of it.

Sounds like the plot to the latest Kingsman movie.

-- 
John Gordon   A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gor...@panix.com  B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
-- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"

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https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Detection of ultrasonic side channels in mobile devices with Python?

[Etienne Robillard]

 What do rats find rewarding in play fighting?


Le 2018-02-28 à 18:29, Chris Angelico a écrit :

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Steven D'Aprano
 wrote:

I'd go further... what gave you the idea that ANYONE is an expert on
ultrasonic activation of neural pathways?

Definitely tinfoil hat material here; expertise is completely immaterial.

ChrisA


--
Etienne Robillard
tkad...@yandex.com
https://www.isotopesoftware.ca/

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Detection of ultrasonic side channels in mobile devices with Python?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2018-02-28, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> I'd go further... what gave you the idea that ANYONE is an expert on
>> ultrasonic activation of neural pathways?
>
> Definitely tinfoil hat material here; expertise is completely immaterial.

I miss Ludwig Plutonium. :/

-- 
Grant Edwards   grant.b.edwardsYow! Nipples, dimples,
  at   knuckles, NICKLES,
  gmail.comwrinkles, pimples!!

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Detection of ultrasonic side channels in mobile devices with Python?

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Steven D'Aprano
 wrote:
> I'd go further... what gave you the idea that ANYONE is an expert on
> ultrasonic activation of neural pathways?

Definitely tinfoil hat material here; expertise is completely immaterial.

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Detection of ultrasonic side channels in mobile devices with Python?

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 16:13:52 -0500, Etienne Robillard wrote:

> Hey,
> 
> I want to know why this question is being silently ignored by this
> group.

Possibly because we have no idea of the answer? Or we thought it was too 
obvious to answer?

Do you have a microphone that can detect ultrasound? Can Python 
communicate with that microphone? If the answer to both of those 
questions is Yes, then the answer to your question is also yes.

The answer to EVERY question "Can Python do Foo?" usually comes down to:

- can you do Foo using a computer? then Python can do it too

although it might not always be fast enough.


[...]
> I want to know what exactly do I need to develop open source softwares
> for analyzing and decoding ultrasonic side channels in smart tvs, mobile
> phones, and computers in Python.

What makes you think we're experts on analyzing and decoding ultrasonic 
side channels in smart TVs, mobile phones, or computers? Let alone all 
three.


> Tell me how exactly ultrasonic side channels may activate remotely
> specific neural pathways implicated in aggressivity and how to block
> theses specific side channels from neuromodulating human behavior.

And what on Earth gave you the idea that we're experts on ultrasonic 
activation of neural pathways

I'd go further... what gave you the idea that ANYONE is an expert on 
ultrasonic activation of neural pathways?



-- 
Steve

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Detection of ultrasonic side channels in mobile devices with Python?

[Etienne Robillard]

If ultrasonic side channels are a threat to privacy, it is because smart 
phones were designed to exploit this precise feature.


A great number of studies have shown that ultrasonic neuromodulation of 
the central nervous system can be exploited via brain-computer interfaces...


It is cutting edge science however, and my knowledge on techniques for 
activating human behavior by remote means is limited.


I am only an amateur scientist/programmer with no experience whatsoever 
in Android or neuroscience.


However, the possibility of ultrasonic side channels to be exploited by 
a third-party remotely without the user consent seem highly likely.


I want to develop Python tools to provide experimental evidences that 
Android may exploit ultrasonic side channels to stimulate or impair the 
auditory cortex of someone.


In other words, I plan to disclose the ability of the US government to 
use mobile devices as psychoenergetics (non-lethal) bioweapons.


Etienne


Le 2018-02-28 à 16:54, Chris Angelico a écrit :

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 8:49 AM, Ned Batchelder  wrote:

On 2/28/18 4:13 PM, Etienne Robillard wrote:

I want to know why this question is being silently ignored by this group.


If no one has any information about your topic, then no one will say
anything.  Python on Android is very specialized as it is, and I have no
idea what ultrasonic side channels are, much less what it would take to
detect or block them.

There's no guarantee that any given question will get a response, much less
a satisfactory answer.  The silence is not malicious, you just haven't
piqued anyone's interest enough for them to respond.


I rather suspect that this is more an Android question than a Python
one, so there's likely to be more interest in an Android community.

But this part sounds like prime quality tinfoil hat material:


Tell me how exactly ultrasonic side channels may activate remotely specific
neural pathways implicated in aggressivity and how to block theses specific
side channels from neuromodulating human behavior.

Should be easy to find some whack-job newsgroups that would love to
discuss that aspect of it.

ChrisA


--
Etienne Robillard
tkad...@yandex.com
https://www.isotopesoftware.ca/

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Detection of ultrasonic side channels in mobile devices with Python?

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 8:49 AM, Ned Batchelder  wrote:
> On 2/28/18 4:13 PM, Etienne Robillard wrote:
>>
>> I want to know why this question is being silently ignored by this group.
>
>
> If no one has any information about your topic, then no one will say
> anything.  Python on Android is very specialized as it is, and I have no
> idea what ultrasonic side channels are, much less what it would take to
> detect or block them.
>
> There's no guarantee that any given question will get a response, much less
> a satisfactory answer.  The silence is not malicious, you just haven't
> piqued anyone's interest enough for them to respond.
>

I rather suspect that this is more an Android question than a Python
one, so there's likely to be more interest in an Android community.

But this part sounds like prime quality tinfoil hat material:

> Tell me how exactly ultrasonic side channels may activate remotely specific
> neural pathways implicated in aggressivity and how to block theses specific
> side channels from neuromodulating human behavior.

Should be easy to find some whack-job newsgroups that would love to
discuss that aspect of it.

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Detection of ultrasonic side channels in mobile devices with Python?

[Ned Batchelder]

On 2/28/18 4:13 PM, Etienne Robillard wrote:

I want to know why this question is being silently ignored by this group.


If no one has any information about your topic, then no one will say 
anything.  Python on Android is very specialized as it is, and I have no 
idea what ultrasonic side channels are, much less what it would take to 
detect or block them.


There's no guarantee that any given question will get a response, much 
less a satisfactory answer.  The silence is not malicious, you just 
haven't piqued anyone's interest enough for them to respond.


--Ned.
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Detection of ultrasonic side channels in mobile devices with Python?

[Etienne Robillard]

Hey,

I want to know why this question is being silently ignored by this group.

I think it is essential to develop cryptoanalysis tools (like softwares) 
to detect and block ultrasonic signals in mobile devices.


Using Python to detect or block ultrasonic side channels would be very 
interesting.


I want to know what exactly do I need to develop open source softwares 
for analyzing and decoding ultrasonic side channels in smart tvs, mobile 
phones, and computers in Python.


Please speak your mind out...

Tell me how exactly ultrasonic side channels may activate remotely 
specific neural pathways implicated in aggressivity and how to block 
theses specific side channels from neuromodulating human behavior.


Thank you.

Etienne


Le 2018-02-26 à 05:25, Etienne Robillard a écrit :

Hi,

I would like to know if its possible to detect or decode ultrasonic 
signals in mobiles devices like Android with Python?


For a introduction to ultrasonic tracking, see: 
https://www.wired.com/2016/11/block-ultrasonic-signals-didnt-know-tracking/


Thank you,

Etienne



--
Etienne Robillard
tkad...@yandex.com
https://www.isotopesoftware.ca/

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Detection of ultrasonic side channels in mobile devices with Python?

[Etienne Robillard]

Hi,

I would like to know if its possible to detect or decode ultrasonic 
signals in mobiles devices like Android with Python?


For a introduction to ultrasonic tracking, see: 
https://www.wired.com/2016/11/block-ultrasonic-signals-didnt-know-tracking/


Thank you,

Etienne

--
Etienne Robillard
tkad...@yandex.com
https://www.isotopesoftware.ca/

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list