Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Cholo Lennon]

On 5/5/21 9:31 PM, Paul Bryan wrote:

Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for use
in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python from
the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.

Paul



No way, I have been using comp.lang.python for years, my spam filter 
works ok btw.


Regards

--
Cholo Lennon
Bs.As.
ARG

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Re: OT: Autism in discussion groups (was: Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list)

[Michael Torrie]

On 5/9/21 11:26 AM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
> Out of curiosity, how do people without a Code of Conduct
> manage and prevent abuse in between people? I was about
> to organise something last year but did not find a better solution
> than a code of conduct to ensure smoothness. Well the idea was a
> before-hand signed code of conduct. It becomes more of  an
> agreement, a pact of good conduct. But i wonder how you
> handle banning it altogether? Like what happens in the case of
> abuse. What if you ban and people ask why? How do organisers
> justify their actions? Even if a code of conduct rings not great with
> some people, at least it can serve as a hint and guiding principles.

An interesting perspective on codes of conduct and SELF:
https://podcast.asknoahshow.com/80, partial transcript at
http://techrights.org/2019/06/15/jeremy-sands-and-imposed-coc/
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Re: OT: Autism in discussion groups (was: Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list)

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

Greetings,

Out of curiosity, how do people without a Code of Conduct
manage and prevent abuse in between people? I was about
to organise something last year but did not find a better solution
than a code of conduct to ensure smoothness. Well the idea was a
before-hand signed code of conduct. It becomes more of  an
agreement, a pact of good conduct. But i wonder how you
handle banning it altogether? Like what happens in the case of
abuse. What if you ban and people ask why? How do organisers
justify their actions? Even if a code of conduct rings not great with
some people, at least it can serve as a hint and guiding principles.

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about  | blog

github 
Mauritius
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: OT: Autism in discussion groups (was: Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list)

[Jason C. McDonald]

> I disagree.  Many people are opposed to CoCs for a variety of reasons
> including the fact that many CoCs are political in nature.  Others
> oppose them for legal liability reasons.  On his radio show Ask Noah (a
> radio show about Linux), Noah has interviewed several people who oppose
> CoCs for political and legal reasons.  The Southeast Linux Fest in
> particular explicitly decided not to have a CoC for mostly legal reasons
> (which he described in episode 80).

That may well be. However, further complicating it are the people who
dislike accountability, as I first mentioned, but *reframe it* as a
"policial" or "legal" issue. There's no shortage of that, especially
in 2021.

If only we had a way to clear that smoke away and find out what earnest
objections remain. I, for one, haven't encountered any that didn't turn
out to be the aforementioned on further inspection. (But I don't know
all cases either.)

> I do agree asking people to simply not be stupid doesn't seem to work
> these days for whatever reason.

I hadn't noticed. ;)

-- 
Jason C. McDonald (CodeMouse92)
Author | Speaker | Hacker | Time Lord
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Re: OT: Autism in discussion groups (was: Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list)

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:58 PM dn via Python-list 
wrote:

> That said, there is nothing to be gained by upsetting people...
>

I misquoted the relevant section from Chris' answer, i wanted to quote:





*I'm not saying that the previous situation was GOOD, but I'm far fromsure
that the current situation is any better - look at the argumentsregarding
branch naming, which completely sidelined all technicalconsiderations in
favour of one single political motivation basedheavily on the decisions of
people from one specific country.*

More about changes like the above.

Nevertheless, when the Linux Foundation announced a discussion looking
> into such (largely) US-concerning terms as Master/Slave in computing
> contexts, the same newsletter blatantly localised events which were
> publicised, and intended to draw, world-wide participation.
> (and has yet to respond to my observation of same)
>
> The ISO 8601 International Standard recommends usage of UTC "Universal
> Time" as a means for communicating times and dates in an international
> or multinational context, ie "interchange". (So the LF's advert of a
> Rust seminar commencing at a time listed in "CEST" is unfriendly and
> somewhat inconsiderate to people outside Europe)
> - example to prove we're not 'US-bashing', even though similar US-based
> examples would be very easy to quote.
>
> ISO 8601 was updated with 'Part 2' in 2019. It deals with "common
> expressions". Many of which are meaningless, or even misleading to
> others. In this case, an invitation to "Spring Internships" seemed six
> months early to me. However, it is 'now' to anyone in the US. Such
> seasonal terms only apply to the temperate zones of this planet -
> neither the tropics nor the poles have such seasons, plus many cultures
> use other terms for specific times of year, eg "Monsoon Season". Thus,
> are not appropriate for use amongst an international audience.
>


The examples you quote are very tangible, clearly defined and easily
associated
Master-slave has obvious meanings, CEST is associated with a particular
area and preferring another timezone would put other people at
disadvantages.
The iso part 2 saute a l'oeil (triggers your sensors, litt. jumps at your
eye), spring
automatically spells confusions as spring goes in the same direction as
timezones

I was pointing out to politically related changes whose obviousness and
correctness
is not gauged from empirical analysis of elements in front of you but
requires the
further step of knowing what the American people deem as right or wrong not
in the sense of morals directly but more of how the country and people
live. Let's
say the word mouse. A mouse is a mouse, the rodent. But now some bad people
take the mouse as their symbol. They put the mouse on their bags, robes,
curtains,
laptops, pens thereby demonising the mouse. Now mouse lovers are also
associated
to these people as well as people who care for mouse wellness in
laboratories. This
happens in Fake Country X.

Now some in a country studied English and learnt that a mouse is a four
tiny-
footed creature with a tail.  Being a mouse lover the person decided to
name a Python
conference PyMouse. Now people start dramatising the situation and label
the person
as someone not to be collaborated with, someone to be banned from all Py
affiliated
enterprises. Well that is very bad to begin with. A mouse remains a mouse
and the bad
folks using the mouse as their symbol exists in majority only in Fake
Country X. Someone
outside Fake Country X never had the chance to study or imbibe himself with
or come
across the association of this with that.

You presented some cases which are very valid and correct, but i was
referring to changes
which are not so blatant and obvious. Cases which are wrong for some people
but right for others
not because of moral correctness directly but more because of associations
present in a particular
country.

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about  | blog

github 
Mauritius
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Re: OT: Autism in discussion groups (was: Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list)

[dn via Python-list]

On 09/05/2021 20.31, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 5:29 AM Chris Angelico  wrote:
> 
>>
>> Probably the same reason it has never worked. The only thing that's
>> changed is the social acceptability of vilifying those you don't like.
>> Once upon a time, there were those in the community who had all the
>> power, and those on the fringes that had none, and if someone on the
>> fringe misbehaved, everyone inside just shunned them and they left.
>> Now, if someone on the fringe misbehaves and everyone treats them
>> badly, there's a massive political kerfuffle and everyone gets hurt.
> 
> 
> Just a note here, though not in relation to CoC but
> as someone speaking English far away from a country
> called America, sometimes i wonder at some changes
> introduced just because it does not ring well within the
> country. I agree that the US pushed many many changes
> used around the world but English is not the property of
> the people of a specific country. The English community
> is the sum of people speaking English over the world.
> Though i am very far from CPython contributions but once
> changes no longer occur on the basis of technical reasons
> it raises eyebrows far beyond CPython contributors.
> 
> Now in the Python community we must verify not only
> grammatical and structural errors but also US-based
> nuances in the language. This requires community
> folks to be in tune with American current affairs and
> ideological tendencies. This might be a bit too much
> work as the bridge of union of the community is the Python
> language, usage and tools. Though English is a core-part
> of the programming language, this is going too deep.
> 
> A practical effect of this is that each and every event
> posters, flyers and websites have to be double checked
> against US nuances and phrasing. And the PSF must
> make sure that events sponsored by it or affiliated must
> follow the same standards.
> 
> This post is in no way a US-bashing one, or intended to be
> hurtful in any way. It's an observation that some changes
> appear totally ok to english speakers until you understand
> that this and that sounds wrong in a particular country. This
> poses the question of the legitimacy of the influence of a certain
> nation over the PSF.

+1

The inherent problem however, is that an author can only write from
his/her own position. Few have lived in multiple cultures. Even fewer
have taken the trouble to understand such differences. It is often
difficult-enough to write what needs to be said in a cogent fashion,
without having to double-guess how multiple cultures might prefer things
be done. That said, there is nothing to be gained by upsetting people...


Nevertheless, when the Linux Foundation announced a discussion looking
into such (largely) US-concerning terms as Master/Slave in computing
contexts, the same newsletter blatantly localised events which were
publicised, and intended to draw, world-wide participation.
(and has yet to respond to my observation of same)

The ISO 8601 International Standard recommends usage of UTC "Universal
Time" as a means for communicating times and dates in an international
or multinational context, ie "interchange". (So the LF's advert of a
Rust seminar commencing at a time listed in "CEST" is unfriendly and
somewhat inconsiderate to people outside Europe)
- example to prove we're not 'US-bashing', even though similar US-based
examples would be very easy to quote.

ISO 8601 was updated with 'Part 2' in 2019. It deals with "common
expressions". Many of which are meaningless, or even misleading to
others. In this case, an invitation to "Spring Internships" seemed six
months early to me. However, it is 'now' to anyone in the US. Such
seasonal terms only apply to the temperate zones of this planet -
neither the tropics nor the poles have such seasons, plus many cultures
use other terms for specific times of year, eg "Monsoon Season". Thus,
are not appropriate for use amongst an international audience.

Web.Ref:
Amusing discussion of ISO 8601:2019 (not the usual dry and turgid
documentation one expects from a standards organisation)
https://www.iso.org/news/2017/02/Ref2164.html
-- 
Regards,
=dn
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Re: OT: Autism in discussion groups (was: Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list)

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

I meant to quote this part actually:

I'm not saying that the previous situation was GOOD, but I'm far from
sure that the current situation is any better - look at the arguments
regarding branch naming, which completely sidelined all technical
considerations in favour of one single political motivation based
heavily on the decisions of people from one specific country.

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about  | blog

github 
Mauritius
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: OT: Autism in discussion groups (was: Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list)

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 5:29 AM Chris Angelico  wrote:

>
> Probably the same reason it has never worked. The only thing that's
> changed is the social acceptability of vilifying those you don't like.
> Once upon a time, there were those in the community who had all the
> power, and those on the fringes that had none, and if someone on the
> fringe misbehaved, everyone inside just shunned them and they left.
> Now, if someone on the fringe misbehaves and everyone treats them
> badly, there's a massive political kerfuffle and everyone gets hurt.


Just a note here, though not in relation to CoC but
as someone speaking English far away from a country
called America, sometimes i wonder at some changes
introduced just because it does not ring well within the
country. I agree that the US pushed many many changes
used around the world but English is not the property of
the people of a specific country. The English community
is the sum of people speaking English over the world.
Though i am very far from CPython contributions but once
changes no longer occur on the basis of technical reasons
it raises eyebrows far beyond CPython contributors.

Now in the Python community we must verify not only
grammatical and structural errors but also US-based
nuances in the language. This requires community
folks to be in tune with American current affairs and
ideological tendencies. This might be a bit too much
work as the bridge of union of the community is the Python
language, usage and tools. Though English is a core-part
of the programming language, this is going too deep.

A practical effect of this is that each and every event
posters, flyers and websites have to be double checked
against US nuances and phrasing. And the PSF must
make sure that events sponsored by it or affiliated must
follow the same standards.

This post is in no way a US-bashing one, or intended to be
hurtful in any way. It's an observation that some changes
appear totally ok to english speakers until you understand
that this and that sounds wrong in a particular country. This
poses the question of the legitimacy of the influence of a certain
nation over the PSF.

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about  | blog

github 
Mauritius
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: OT: Autism in discussion groups (was: Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list)

[Chris Angelico]

On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:10 AM Michael Torrie  wrote:
>
> On 5/8/21 6:23 PM, Jason C. McDonald wrote:
> > Usually, I find when people dump on CoCs, they're just angry at
> > accountability. I haven't known anyone yet who was a productive
> > member of Python and opposed to the CoC, at least in principle
> > and aim.
>
> I disagree.  Many people are opposed to CoCs for a variety of reasons
> including the fact that many CoCs are political in nature.  Others
> oppose them for legal liability reasons.  On his radio show Ask Noah (a
> radio show about Linux), Noah has interviewed several people who oppose
> CoCs for political and legal reasons.  The Southeast Linux Fest in
> particular explicitly decided not to have a CoC for mostly legal reasons
> (which he described in episode 80).
>
> I do agree asking people to simply not be stupid doesn't seem to work
> these days for whatever reason.

Probably the same reason it has never worked. The only thing that's
changed is the social acceptability of vilifying those you don't like.
Once upon a time, there were those in the community who had all the
power, and those on the fringes that had none, and if someone on the
fringe misbehaved, everyone inside just shunned them and they left.
Now, if someone on the fringe misbehaves and everyone treats them
badly, there's a massive political kerfuffle and everyone gets hurt.

I'm not saying that the previous situation was GOOD, but I'm far from
sure that the current situation is any better - look at the arguments
regarding branch naming, which completely sidelined all technical
considerations in favour of one single political motivation based
heavily on the decisions of people from one specific country.

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: OT: Autism in discussion groups (was: Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list)

[Michael Torrie]

On 5/8/21 6:23 PM, Jason C. McDonald wrote:
> Usually, I find when people dump on CoCs, they're just angry at
> accountability. I haven't known anyone yet who was a productive
> member of Python and opposed to the CoC, at least in principle
> and aim.

I disagree.  Many people are opposed to CoCs for a variety of reasons
including the fact that many CoCs are political in nature.  Others
oppose them for legal liability reasons.  On his radio show Ask Noah (a
radio show about Linux), Noah has interviewed several people who oppose
CoCs for political and legal reasons.  The Southeast Linux Fest in
particular explicitly decided not to have a CoC for mostly legal reasons
(which he described in episode 80).

I do agree asking people to simply not be stupid doesn't seem to work
these days for whatever reason.
-- 
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Re: OT: Autism in discussion groups (was: Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list)

[Michael Torrie]

On 5/8/21 3:28 PM, Mirko via Python-list wrote:
> 
> I apologize for this OT post, especially because it's in reply to an
> at least partly troll post, but I just can't resist. Sorry.
> 
> P.S.: *NOT* among the core symptoms of (the high-functioning levels)
> of ASS is the inability to learn. Mind that! (And that includes
> social norms.)

Thank you for posting such an insightful comment. No need to apologize.
 I really appreciate it. I think you are exactly correct.
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Re: OT: Autism in discussion groups (was: Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list)

[Jason C. McDonald]

Very well said! It's quite easy to use one's disadvantages as an excuse
for anti-social behavior. The Code of Conduct certainly isn't perfect,
but it has proven to be one of the most effective tools in keeping a
community healthy.

Usually, I find when people dump on CoCs, they're just angry at
accountability. I haven't known anyone yet who was a productive
member of Python and opposed to the CoC, at least in principle
and aim.

On 2021-05-08, Mirko  wrote:
>
> I apologize for this OT post, especially because it's in reply to an
> at least partly troll post, but I just can't resist. Sorry.
>
>
> Am 08.05.2021 um 14:09 schrieb Talkie Toaster:
>> On 06/05/2021 18:56, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>>> Quite frankly I don't care how this discussion goes as the Python
>>> community discriminates against Asperger's suffers such as myself.
>>>
>> 
>> I believe I am also on the spectrum and feel the same way about the
>> fluffy cloud echo chamber for fluffy clouds that is the Python
>> "community".
>
> I'm also on the autism spectrum but I do *NOT* appreciate how you
> both instrumentalize our condition and use it as a self-righteous
> self-defense and how you politicized it.
>
> One of the core aspects of ASS is that we have difficulties
> understanding and following common and accepted social norms. But
> that is not a carte blanche for every kind of misbehavior. I don't
> call myself Aspie for no reason. I believe that we have a right to
> be what we are and to live according to our needs, situations,
> conditions and specialties. But that doesn't mean that the rest of
> the world has to unilaterally adapt to us. It's both sides! The
> world needs to understand that our behavior is a little different we
> need to understand that our behavior is sometimes off the limits. We
> need to learn -- both sides -- how to live together and we need to
> learn to *RESPECT* each other.
>
>> This "code of conduct" bullsh1t is getting out of hand.
>
> Unless the CoD includes ASS of course! Isn't it?! ;-)
>
> You complain about a "fluffy cloud echo chamber", but you are
> *calling* for the *same*. A fluffy cloud echo chamber where no ASS
> person is ever called for any possibly disrespecting words or
> behavior. A fluffy cloud echo chamber where everybody just accepts
> and respects you for what you are. Does the concept sound familiar?
>
>
> P.S.: *NOT* among the core symptoms of (the high-functioning levels)
> of ASS is the inability to learn. Mind that! (And that includes
> social norms.)


-- 
Jason C. McDonald (CodeMouse92)
Author | Speaker | Hacker | Time Lord
-- 
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OT: Autism in discussion groups (was: Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list)

[Mirko via Python-list]

I apologize for this OT post, especially because it's in reply to an
at least partly troll post, but I just can't resist. Sorry.


Am 08.05.2021 um 14:09 schrieb Talkie Toaster:
> On 06/05/2021 18:56, Mark Lawrence wrote:

>> Quite frankly I don't care how this discussion goes as the Python
>> community discriminates against Asperger's suffers such as myself.
>>
> 
> I believe I am also on the spectrum and feel the same way about the
> fluffy cloud echo chamber for fluffy clouds that is the Python
> "community".

I'm also on the autism spectrum but I do *NOT* appreciate how you
both instrumentalize our condition and use it as a self-righteous
self-defense and how you politicized it.

One of the core aspects of ASS is that we have difficulties
understanding and following common and accepted social norms. But
that is not a carte blanche for every kind of misbehavior. I don't
call myself Aspie for no reason. I believe that we have a right to
be what we are and to live according to our needs, situations,
conditions and specialties. But that doesn't mean that the rest of
the world has to unilaterally adapt to us. It's both sides! The
world needs to understand that our behavior is a little different we
need to understand that our behavior is sometimes off the limits. We
need to learn -- both sides -- how to live together and we need to
learn to *RESPECT* each other.

> This "code of conduct" bullsh1t is getting out of hand.

Unless the CoD includes ASS of course! Isn't it?! ;-)

You complain about a "fluffy cloud echo chamber", but you are
*calling* for the *same*. A fluffy cloud echo chamber where no ASS
person is ever called for any possibly disrespecting words or
behavior. A fluffy cloud echo chamber where everybody just accepts
and respects you for what you are. Does the concept sound familiar?


P.S.: *NOT* among the core symptoms of (the high-functioning levels)
of ASS is the inability to learn. Mind that! (And that includes
social norms.)
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Talkie Toaster]

On 06/05/2021 18:56, Mark Lawrence wrote:

On Thursday, May 6, 2021 at 1:31:28 AM UTC+1, Paul Bryan wrote:

Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for use
in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python from
the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.

Paul

Quite frankly I don't care how this discussion goes as the Python community 
discriminates against Asperger's suffers such as myself.



I believe I am also on the spectrum and feel the same way about the fluffy cloud 
echo chamber for fluffy clouds that is the Python "community".


This "code of conduct" bullsh1t is getting out of hand.

Message ends.

/Toaster
--
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[황병희]

Paul Bryan  writes:

> Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for use
> in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
> staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python from
> the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.

Hellow Paul,

So now, i think that Evolution should be support for NNTP.

Sincerely, Python and Gnus fan Byung-Hee

-- 
^고맙습니다 _布德天下_ 감사합니다_^))//
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Chris Green]

Grant Edwards  wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Chris Green  wrote:
> > Grant Edwards  wrote:
> >> On 2021-05-06, Chris Green  wrote:
> >> > Grant Edwards  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Pointing a newsreader at news.gmane.io allows one to participate in
> >> >> the mailing list just fine without using Usenet.
> >> >> 
> >> > ???  Surely that *is* using Usenet, at least you're using NNTP which
> >> > is the Usenet protocol.  What's "not Usenet" about it?
> >> 
> >> Usenet was a distributed network of computers that transferred
> >> articles amongst themselves using various protocols, and provided
> >> access to readers in various ways (NNTP being one of them).
> >> 
> > Usenet *is* still this
> 
> Good point.
> 
> >> Gmane was not and is not part of that network. It is a single,
> >> stand-alone machine operating as an email list archiver/gateway that
> >> provides access to read/post via NTTP.
> >
> > It is effectively part of Usenet because the mailing lists it hosts
> > and gateways to its newserver are peered with Usenet.  
> 
> I don't consider that as "being part of Usenet". Being part of Usenet
> means that you peer with other the news hosts within Usenet, provide
> the same group hiearchary (or some defined subset) and obey the normal
> newsgroup control messages.
> 
> > I read several gmane 'lists' via usenet, I most certainly don't get
> > them directly from gmane, I get them from other usenet servers.
> 
> Are you saying that the gmane news server is peered with other news
> servers? And that you can read gmane.comp.python.general on other news
> servers?  That didn't used to be the case...
> 
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

... ah, but, you're probably right!  Sorry.  I've just looked at my
leafnode configuration and I *have* got news.gmane.io in there.  I
must have done it so long ago that I'd forgotten all about it.

-- 
Chris Green
·
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Greg Ewing]

My opinion on all this: The volume in this newsgroup is nowhere
near high enough to be worth changing anything.

This thread itself now contains more messages than the recent
neopython trollage that prompted it.

--
Greg

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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Ethan Furman]

On 5/6/21 11:05 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Stestagg wrote:

>> Where's this discussion going?
>>
>> Which of the practically possible options are best for this list <->
>> newsgroup setup?
>
> And it appears even the suggestion that
> Mailman 3 cannot be used while a gateway is involved is untrue:
> https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/docs/nntp.html

Interesting.  I know the NNTP gateway wasn't there a couple years ago, and I do not see a date as to when that became 
possible.


--
~Ethan~
--
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Grant Edwards]

On 2021-05-06, Chris Green  wrote:
> Grant Edwards  wrote:
>> On 2021-05-06, Chris Green  wrote:
>> > Grant Edwards  wrote:
>> >
>> >> Pointing a newsreader at news.gmane.io allows one to participate in
>> >> the mailing list just fine without using Usenet.
>> >> 
>> > ???  Surely that *is* using Usenet, at least you're using NNTP which
>> > is the Usenet protocol.  What's "not Usenet" about it?
>> 
>> Usenet was a distributed network of computers that transferred
>> articles amongst themselves using various protocols, and provided
>> access to readers in various ways (NNTP being one of them).
>> 
> Usenet *is* still this

Good point.

>> Gmane was not and is not part of that network. It is a single,
>> stand-alone machine operating as an email list archiver/gateway that
>> provides access to read/post via NTTP.
>
> It is effectively part of Usenet because the mailing lists it hosts
> and gateways to its newserver are peered with Usenet.  

I don't consider that as "being part of Usenet". Being part of Usenet
means that you peer with other the news hosts within Usenet, provide
the same group hiearchary (or some defined subset) and obey the normal
newsgroup control messages.

> I read several gmane 'lists' via usenet, I most certainly don't get
> them directly from gmane, I get them from other usenet servers.

Are you saying that the gmane news server is peered with other news
servers? And that you can read gmane.comp.python.general on other news
servers?  That didn't used to be the case...


-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Paul Bryan]

I do not believe my proposal has reached—or will reach—consensus. It
seems there are some who still value the linkage between the two, and
the S/N ratio is indeed low enough it doesn't warrant changing from the
status quo. Thanks everyone for the consideration and discussion. 

Paul

On Thu, 2021-05-06 at 18:49 +0100, Stestagg wrote:
> Where's this discussion going?
> 
> Let's not get too caught up on definitions or the sizes of everyone's
> respective .. newsgroups.
> 
> Which of the practically possible options are best for this list <->
> newsgroup setup?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Steve
> 
> On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 6:47 PM Jon Ribbens via Python-list <
> python-list@python.org> wrote:
> 
> > On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon  wrote:
> > > On 5/6/21 9:44 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> > > > Sounds like nearly all moderated lists/forums then.
> > > 
> > > Then perhaps you have never been on a real Moderated mailing list
> > > or
> > > Forum.
> > 
> > Ah, the "no true scotsforum" argument ;-)
> > 
> > > > > While you could setup a robo-moderator to do a similar thing,
> > > > > Usenet
> > > > > posters will not have 'pre-subscribed' before posting, and
> > > > > the From
> > > > > address is no where near as relaible as invalid From
> > > > > addresses ARE
> > > > > allowed, and since the message comes via a NNTP injection
> > > > > source relay,
> > > > > non-verifiable. This make the job a LOT harder.
> > > > It makes essentially no difference at all.
> > > It sure does. Have you every actually TRIED to run a moderated
> > > Usenet
> > > group, or know anyone who has, especially a somewhat busy group?
> > 
> > As I already mentioned, I am a moderator of a Usenet group.
> > 
> > > I am presuming that the current gateway isn't bringing all the
> > > messages
> > > from Usenet into the mailing list. This is obvious as we don't
> > > see the
> > > noise here. The Cabal that runs the 'Big-8' doesn't really care
> > > what
> > > sort of filters are added at such a gateway.
> > > 
> > > To setup a moderated group that defines similar filters in place
> > > for
> > > messages getting to Usenet, particularly for a group intended to
> > > replace
> > > a 'reasonably' working unmoderated group, is likely not going to
> > > be
> > > viewed well.
> > 
> > Have you every actually TRIED to run a moderated Usenet group, or
> > know
> > anyone who has, especially a somewhat busy group? Of *course*
> > moderated
> > groups put filters on what they receive, what do you think group
> > moderation is *for* if not to block things?
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> > 

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2021-05-06, Stestagg  wrote:
> Where's this discussion going?
>
> Let's not get too caught up on definitions or the sizes of everyone's
> respective .. newsgroups.
>
> Which of the practically possible options are best for this list <->
> newsgroup setup?

As before I'd suggest that changing the group to be moderated,
or switching to a parallel moderated group, is at the very least
worth trying. There's no obvious downside and it requires very
little work from anyone (indeed no work at all after the initial
setup). None of the objections raised so far have any basis
whatsoever in reality. And it appears even the suggestion that
Mailman 3 cannot be used while a gateway is involved is untrue:
https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/docs/nntp.html
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Stestagg]

Where's this discussion going?

Let's not get too caught up on definitions or the sizes of everyone's
respective .. newsgroups.

Which of the practically possible options are best for this list <->
newsgroup setup?

Thanks

Steve

On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 6:47 PM Jon Ribbens via Python-list <
python-list@python.org> wrote:

> On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon  wrote:
> > On 5/6/21 9:44 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> >> Sounds like nearly all moderated lists/forums then.
> >
> > Then perhaps you have never been on a real Moderated mailing list or
> > Forum.
>
> Ah, the "no true scotsforum" argument ;-)
>
> >>> While you could setup a robo-moderator to do a similar thing, Usenet
> >>> posters will not have 'pre-subscribed' before posting, and the From
> >>> address is no where near as relaible as invalid From addresses ARE
> >>> allowed, and since the message comes via a NNTP injection source relay,
> >>> non-verifiable. This make the job a LOT harder.
> >> It makes essentially no difference at all.
> > It sure does. Have you every actually TRIED to run a moderated Usenet
> > group, or know anyone who has, especially a somewhat busy group?
>
> As I already mentioned, I am a moderator of a Usenet group.
>
> > I am presuming that the current gateway isn't bringing all the messages
> > from Usenet into the mailing list. This is obvious as we don't see the
> > noise here. The Cabal that runs the 'Big-8' doesn't really care what
> > sort of filters are added at such a gateway.
> >
> > To setup a moderated group that defines similar filters in place for
> > messages getting to Usenet, particularly for a group intended to replace
> > a 'reasonably' working unmoderated group, is likely not going to be
> > viewed well.
>
> Have you every actually TRIED to run a moderated Usenet group, or know
> anyone who has, especially a somewhat busy group? Of *course* moderated
> groups put filters on what they receive, what do you think group
> moderation is *for* if not to block things?
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon  wrote:
> On 5/6/21 9:44 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>> Sounds like nearly all moderated lists/forums then.
>
> Then perhaps you have never been on a real Moderated mailing list or
> Forum.

Ah, the "no true scotsforum" argument ;-)

>>> While you could setup a robo-moderator to do a similar thing, Usenet
>>> posters will not have 'pre-subscribed' before posting, and the From
>>> address is no where near as relaible as invalid From addresses ARE
>>> allowed, and since the message comes via a NNTP injection source relay,
>>> non-verifiable. This make the job a LOT harder.
>> It makes essentially no difference at all.
> It sure does. Have you every actually TRIED to run a moderated Usenet
> group, or know anyone who has, especially a somewhat busy group?

As I already mentioned, I am a moderator of a Usenet group.

> I am presuming that the current gateway isn't bringing all the messages
> from Usenet into the mailing list. This is obvious as we don't see the
> noise here. The Cabal that runs the 'Big-8' doesn't really care what
> sort of filters are added at such a gateway.
>
> To setup a moderated group that defines similar filters in place for
> messages getting to Usenet, particularly for a group intended to replace
> a 'reasonably' working unmoderated group, is likely not going to be
> viewed well.

Have you every actually TRIED to run a moderated Usenet group, or know
anyone who has, especially a somewhat busy group? Of *course* moderated
groups put filters on what they receive, what do you think group
moderation is *for* if not to block things?
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Chris Green]

Grant Edwards  wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Chris Green  wrote:
> > Grant Edwards  wrote:
> >
> >> Pointing a newsreader at news.gmane.io allows one to participate in
> >> the mailing list just fine without using Usenet.
> >> 
> > ???  Surely that *is* using Usenet, at least you're using NNTP which
> > is the Usenet protocol.  What's "not Usenet" about it?
> 
> Usenet was a distributed network of computers that transferred
> articles amongst themselves using various protocols, and provided
> access to readers in various ways (NNTP being one of them).
> 
Usenet *is* still this


> Gmane was not and is not part of that network. It is a single,
> stand-alone machine operating as an email list archiver/gateway that
> provides access to read/post via NTTP.
> 
It is effectively part of Usenet because the mailing lists it hosts
and gateways to its newserver are peered with Usenet.  

I read several gmane 'lists' via usenet, I most certainly don't get
them directly from gmane, I get them from other usenet servers.

-- 
Chris Green
·
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Richard Damon]

On 5/6/21 9:44 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon  wrote:
>> On 5/6/21 6:12 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>>> I think you're fundamentally missing the point that the newsgroup is
>>> *already gatewayed to the mailing list*. Marking the group moderated
>>> will not result in any more work for the moderators. In fact what you
>>> say above is the opposite of the truth, as it will result in the link
>>> between the poster and the moderators becoming more direct, not less
>>> direct.
>> It will.
> How? How would switching from a bi-directional gateway to a moderated
> group make any more work for anyone than the existing bi-directional
> gateway to an unmoderated group?
>
>> First, python-list@python.org is NOT a "Moderated" mailing list by the
>> standard definition of such. Maybe you could call it Moderatable, but
>> most messages make it to the list without any intervention by a
>> moderator.
> Sounds like nearly all moderated lists/forums then.

Then perhaps you have never been on a real Moderated mailing list or
Forum. Lists/Forum when described as moderated normally means that a
human eyeball looks at EVERY (or almost every) message before it goes
public.

>> The Mailman software that runs the list allows the administrators of
>> the list to put select filters on posts, or to make certain posters
>> moderated and need their posts reviewed, but most posts go through
>> automatically and immediately. This works because the SMTP Email
>> system have a must better presumption of the From address in the
>> message actually being who the sender is then under NNTP rules.
> The SMTP mail system makes no such assumption whatsoever.

Maybe not be the absolute letter of the rules, but it does in practice.
Especially if a person intends for their messages to be able to be
delivered to most mail servers. At the very least, the email envelope
will have an apparently valid email address, or most email systems will
refuse it. Protocols like SPF will verify that the message does come
from who it says, or at least there is a responsible party that will
deal with things, or that whole domain get put into block lists. Email
from 'known senders' tends to be reliably marked, and you need to
subscribe to the list and become a 'known sender'. Once you have gone
through the NNTP gateway, you lose all of that.

>> Forging it is detectable in many cases and generally a violation of
>> the TOS for most providers (and the ones that don't can easily be
>> blocked).
> Sounds a lot like Usenet then.
Many Usenet providers do NOT require users to use valid email address as
their From (You can't subscribe such an address to the mailing list to
be able to post from it). They might prohibit explicitly forging someone
else's email address, but Nym Shifiting is common and accepted on Usenet
(SOME providers might limit it, but not all)
>> While you could setup a robo-moderator to do a similar thing, Usenet
>> posters will not have 'pre-subscribed' before posting, and the From
>> address is no where near as relaible as invalid From addresses ARE
>> allowed, and since the message comes via a NNTP injection source relay,
>> non-verifiable. This make the job a LOT harder.
> It makes essentially no difference at all.
It sure does. Have you every actually TRIED to run a moderated Usenet
group, or know anyone who has, especially a somewhat busy group?
>> The current setup does put rules at the gateway that controls what gets
>> onto the mailing list, and because it IS a gateway, there are easier
>> grounds to establish that some posts just won't be gated over from
>> usenet to the mailing list. Putting those same limits onto the moderated
>> group itself would be against Usenet norms. This would mean that the
>> Usenet moderation queue WILL require significant additional work over
>> what is currently being done for the mailing list.
> Could you explain what on earth you are on about here please?

I am presuming that the current gateway isn't bringing all the messages
from Usenet into the mailing list. This is obvious as we don't see the
noise here. The Cabal that runs the 'Big-8' doesn't really care what
sort of filters are added at such a gateway.

To setup a moderated group that defines similar filters in place for
messages getting to Usenet, particularly for a group intended to replace
a 'reasonably' working unmoderated group, is likely not going to be
viewed well. In the old days of actual voting for new groups, just
saying you intended to do such got you a lot of negative votes. Not
sayng you are going to do it, and then doing it, might get the Big-8

>
>> If the idea is just to provide a NNTP accessible version of the mailing
>> list, than perhaps rather than a comp.* group, putting it on gmane would
>> be a viable option, that avoids some of the Usenet issues.
> How would that make any difference?

gmane is not Usenet. If you just want NNTP access, but not the problems
of general Usenet, it is an 

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Grant Edwards]

On 2021-05-06, Chris Green  wrote:
> Grant Edwards  wrote:
>
>> Pointing a newsreader at news.gmane.io allows one to participate in
>> the mailing list just fine without using Usenet.
>> 
> ???  Surely that *is* using Usenet, at least you're using NNTP which
> is the Usenet protocol.  What's "not Usenet" about it?

Usenet was a distributed network of computers that transferred
articles amongst themselves using various protocols, and provided
access to readers in various ways (NNTP being one of them).

Gmane was not and is not part of that network. It is a single,
stand-alone machine operating as an email list archiver/gateway that
provides access to read/post via NTTP.

--
Grant

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Skip Montanaro]

> > Not that I support shutting down the Usenet/email gateway -- the
> > signal/noise ration seems fine to me.
> >
> On that I quite agree.  :-)

I remind people that the existing Usenet<->Mail gateway keeps the
mailing list software on mail.python.org from migrating to Mailman 3.
I'm sure Mark Sapiro and other Mailman maintainers would like to keep
moving away from Mailman 2. If the gateway (easier anonymity) and
Mailman 3 (maybe better list archives) are of interest to you, you
might check in with the Mailman dev list and see what would be
involved in porting the gateway code to MM3.

Skip
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Grant Edwards]

On 2021-05-06, Dennis Lee Bieber  wrote:

> Granted, I did move from pure comp.lang.python to
> gmane.comp.python.general when the spam became too much to keep
> track of.  (Now if I could only figure out why the beaglebone group
> stopped accepting replies via gmane -- I keep having to remember to
> reply by email in that forum).

Years ago one of the lists I read on gmane required actual e-mailed
posts and I configured slrn to do that without me having to remember
it. I don't remember exactly how...

--
Grant

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Paul Bryan]

I will also add that it can get confusing when someone replies to a
newsgroup posting that was originally suppressed to the mailing list.
This has happened as recently as today.

On Thu, 2021-05-06 at 14:36 +, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> > On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 10:43 AM Avi Gross via Python-list
> >  wrote:
> > > 
> > > Chris,
> > > 
> > > Given some notice, what stops anyone from joining the mailing
> > > list before
> > > there is a divorce between the forums?
> > 
> > Nothing! Nothing at all. That is, if you're talking about *people*.
> > People are absolutely welcome to join. The reason the S/N would
> > improve is all the non-people who post to the newsgroup.
> > 
> > But there are some people who simply don't want to use the mailing
> > list, and that's currently a fully-welcomed option. I won't name
> > names, but there definitely are people who would prefer a
> > newsreader,
> 
> Pointing a newsreader at news.gmane.io allows one to participate in
> the mailing list just fine without using Usenet.
> 
> Not that I support shutting down the Usenet/email gateway -- the
> signal/noise ration seems fine to me.
> 
> --
> Grant
> 
> 

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Chris Green]

Grant Edwards  wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> > On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 10:43 AM Avi Gross via Python-list
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Chris,
> >>
> >> Given some notice, what stops anyone from joining the mailing list before
> >> there is a divorce between the forums?
> >
> > Nothing! Nothing at all. That is, if you're talking about *people*.
> > People are absolutely welcome to join. The reason the S/N would
> > improve is all the non-people who post to the newsgroup.
> >
> > But there are some people who simply don't want to use the mailing
> > list, and that's currently a fully-welcomed option. I won't name
> > names, but there definitely are people who would prefer a newsreader,
> 
> Pointing a newsreader at news.gmane.io allows one to participate in
> the mailing list just fine without using Usenet.
> 
???  Surely that *is* using Usenet, at least you're using NNTP which
is the Usenet protocol.  What's "not Usenet" about it?

> Not that I support shutting down the Usenet/email gateway -- the
> signal/noise ration seems fine to me.
> 
On that I quite agree.  :-)

-- 
Chris Green
·
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Mats Wichmann]

On 5/5/21 10:33 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:


I, for one, wish more mailing lists did have newsgroup access (I also
wish for the demise of Google Groups, but short of a large explosive in
Mountain View, doubt that will come to pass). Instead everything is being
splintered into smaller and smaller forums which many won't keep following.
And if it web-based, that is even worse -- having to refresh pages for each
message read, limited to their editors which tend not to preserve
formatting, etc.
Splintering is a real problem that a lot of projects face.  Of course 
you want to have a presence on forums that are comfortable for people, 
but these days it's typical to have, like Python does, mailing lists, 
newsgroup, forum software (discuss.python.org), chat channels, bug 
trackers, github, change proposals on a website (PEPs), and so on, as 
well as busy "external" sites like the Python DIscord server.


I'm struggling with that for a much smaller project, ain't easy to keep 
collective knowledge like this organized and findable without asking 
everybody to participate in everything, which (a) is impossible and (b) 
the reason for multiple approaches in the first place - some won't do 
mailing lists, some won't do forums, etc.

--
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Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

It was high time  a proposal like that came up
We have seen from time to time some comp lang
interruptions ~
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Grant Edwards]

On 2021-05-06, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 10:43 AM Avi Gross via Python-list
> wrote:
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>> Given some notice, what stops anyone from joining the mailing list before
>> there is a divorce between the forums?
>
> Nothing! Nothing at all. That is, if you're talking about *people*.
> People are absolutely welcome to join. The reason the S/N would
> improve is all the non-people who post to the newsgroup.
>
> But there are some people who simply don't want to use the mailing
> list, and that's currently a fully-welcomed option. I won't name
> names, but there definitely are people who would prefer a newsreader,

Pointing a newsreader at news.gmane.io allows one to participate in
the mailing list just fine without using Usenet.

Not that I support shutting down the Usenet/email gateway -- the
signal/noise ration seems fine to me.

--
Grant


-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Grant Edwards]

On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon  wrote:

> If the idea is just to provide a NNTP accessible version of the mailing
> list, than perhaps rather than a comp.* group, putting it on gmane would
> be a viable option, that avoids some of the Usenet issues.

The list _is_ on gmane and has been since forever.

It's gmane.comp.python.general.

--
Grant



-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon  wrote:
> On 5/6/21 9:12 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>> Are you saying that the messages that appear occasionally from people
>> such as Ethan Furman claiming to be moderators and alleging that
>> particular people have been banned or suspended are lies? And that the
>> message I received once saying that my comp.lang.python post had been
>> rejected from the list was also a lie?
>
> No, as I mentioned in my other post. a "Moderated Mailing List" is
> generally described as one which EVERY message is hand reviewed by a
> person, and alloweed onto the list. python-list is NOT such a list.

It's a list. It has people who describe themselves as "moderators",
who moderate it. If you want to say that a list with moderators who
moderate it is not a moderated list then feel free to go right ahead,
it's a free planet.

> One advantage of mediums like mailing lists, is that it is quite easy to
> setup methods where all the mail goes through a gatekeeper, and it
> automatically approves most messages, but a limited number of messages
> get held to be reviewed. This is generally NOT described as a Moderated
> List.
>
> Usenet being a distributed system, doesn't support this model.

You are mistaken, that is exactly how a moderated newsgroup works.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2021-05-06, Skip Montanaro  wrote:
>> Are you saying that the messages that appear occasionally from people
>> such as Ethan Furman claiming to be moderators and alleging that
>> particular people have been banned or suspended are lies? And that the
>> message I received once saying that my comp.lang.python post had been
>> rejected from the list was also a lie?
>
> I'm sorry, but I don't recall accusing you of lying,

Neither do I. Nor do I remember accusing you of accusing me of lying.
Try reading the quoted paragraph above again, since you apparently
misread it the first time.

> My issue was that we seem to disagree with the definition of
> "moderation." Earlier in this thread it was suggested that
> comp.lang.python.moderated be created and that some as-yet-unnamed
> moderators would vet every single message to that group.

I am not aware that anyone has suggested anything remotely like that.

> Yes, Ethan is one of three listed admins of the list. I wouldn't have
> mentioned him by name, but you did. (I suppose his role common
> knowledge anyway.)

Well, yes, if he wanted it to be secret he presumably would not have
made formal announcements describing himself as a moderator in public
on the list.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon  wrote:
> On 5/6/21 6:12 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>> I think you're fundamentally missing the point that the newsgroup is
>> *already gatewayed to the mailing list*. Marking the group moderated
>> will not result in any more work for the moderators. In fact what you
>> say above is the opposite of the truth, as it will result in the link
>> between the poster and the moderators becoming more direct, not less
>> direct.
>
> It will.

How? How would switching from a bi-directional gateway to a moderated
group make any more work for anyone than the existing bi-directional
gateway to an unmoderated group?

> First, python-list@python.org is NOT a "Moderated" mailing list by the
> standard definition of such. Maybe you could call it Moderatable, but
> most messages make it to the list without any intervention by a
> moderator.

Sounds like nearly all moderated lists/forums then.

> The Mailman software that runs the list allows the administrators of
> the list to put select filters on posts, or to make certain posters
> moderated and need their posts reviewed, but most posts go through
> automatically and immediately. This works because the SMTP Email
> system have a must better presumption of the From address in the
> message actually being who the sender is then under NNTP rules.

The SMTP mail system makes no such assumption whatsoever.

> Forging it is detectable in many cases and generally a violation of
> the TOS for most providers (and the ones that don't can easily be
> blocked).

Sounds a lot like Usenet then.

> While you could setup a robo-moderator to do a similar thing, Usenet
> posters will not have 'pre-subscribed' before posting, and the From
> address is no where near as relaible as invalid From addresses ARE
> allowed, and since the message comes via a NNTP injection source relay,
> non-verifiable. This make the job a LOT harder.

It makes essentially no difference at all.

> The current setup does put rules at the gateway that controls what gets
> onto the mailing list, and because it IS a gateway, there are easier
> grounds to establish that some posts just won't be gated over from
> usenet to the mailing list. Putting those same limits onto the moderated
> group itself would be against Usenet norms. This would mean that the
> Usenet moderation queue WILL require significant additional work over
> what is currently being done for the mailing list.

Could you explain what on earth you are on about here please?

> If the idea is just to provide a NNTP accessible version of the mailing
> list, than perhaps rather than a comp.* group, putting it on gmane would
> be a viable option, that avoids some of the Usenet issues.

How would that make any difference?
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Skip Montanaro]

> Are you saying that the messages that appear occasionally from people
> such as Ethan Furman claiming to be moderators and alleging that
> particular people have been banned or suspended are lies? And that the
> message I received once saying that my comp.lang.python post had been
> rejected from the list was also a lie?

I'm sorry, but I don't recall accusing you of lying, neither in my
words nor in my thoughts. If you think I was doing that, you must be
reading everything with a very jaundiced eye.

My issue was that we seem to disagree with the definition of
"moderation." Earlier in this thread it was suggested that
comp.lang.python.moderated be created and that some as-yet-unnamed
moderators would vet every single message to that group. I think of
moderation as things which humans do, not tool chains. I suppose the
python.org postmasters could disable all elements of that tool chain
and let the admins/moderators do it all manually. Still, I don't think
of the mailing list as moderated. Yes, Ethan is one of three listed
admins of the list. I wouldn't have mentioned him by name, but you
did. (I suppose his role common knowledge anyway.)

I see three held messages in the queue right now with received times
between 00:33 to 08:15 today (timezone isn't mentioned). I seriously
doubt Ethan or the other admins approved all the other messages which
have reached the list in that interval. Despite the existing tool
chain, a number of messages which shouldn't probably leak through
without being vetted by Ethan or the other admins.

I will offer one other bit of information. As I understand it, the
only reason python-list@python.org can't be migrated to Mailman 3 is
because it doesn't support the gateway between Usenet and mail. It's
worth considering for people thinking about whether or not to
disconnect the two. (I have no opinion on that subject. Clearly others
do.)

Skip
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Richard Damon]

On 5/6/21 9:12 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Skip Montanaro  wrote:
>>> Are you unaware that the group is already gatewayed to a moderated
>>> mailing list for which all of that work is already done?
>> What is this moderation of which you speak? I'm one of the Python
>> postmasters (I maintain the SpamBayes setup) and am aware of a
>> multi-part tool chain (black hole lists, SpamBayes, greylisting, etc),
>> but not of human moderation on a grand scale, just of the relatively
>> few posts which are held for the admins/moderators by SpamBayes. My
>> definition of "moderation" is that a human vets every post.
> That's not a definition that anyone else would use, I think,
> and I say that as a moderator of a Usenet group..
>
>> That's certainly not the case for python-list@python.org. Posts gated
>> from comp.lang.python to the mailing list only get passed through
>> SpamBayes. All other elements of the tool chain occur ahead of the
>> gateway.
>>
>> If we are using two different definitions of "moderation" I think it
>> is important to be clear what we mean.
> Are you saying that the messages that appear occasionally from people
> such as Ethan Furman claiming to be moderators and alleging that
> particular people have been banned or suspended are lies? And that the
> message I received once saying that my comp.lang.python post had been
> rejected from the list was also a lie?

No, as I mentioned in my other post. a "Moderated Mailing List" is
generally described as one which EVERY message is hand reviewed by a
person, and alloweed onto the list. python-list is NOT such a list.

One advantage of mediums like mailing lists, is that it is quite easy to
setup methods where all the mail goes through a gatekeeper, and it
automatically approves most messages, but a limited number of messages
get held to be reviewed. This is generally NOT described as a Moderated
List.

Usenet being a distributed system, doesn't support this model. Either
anybody can inject a message from wherever they are, no all messages are
sent to be reviewed, the unmoderated and moderated is a VERY sharp line.

In Usenet terms, lists like this would be described as loosely
robo-moderated. And it works a lot better for mailing lists than for
Usenet groups due to different rules about From: identification of messages.

-- 
Richard Damon

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Richard Damon]

On 5/6/21 6:12 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon  wrote:
>> On 5/5/21 10:44 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>>> On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon  wrote:
 As someone with a long usenet background, converting the existing group
 to moderated would be practically impossible. It just isn't done. It
 would need to be a new group created with the .moderated tag. The
 problem is that some servers won't change and getting things mixed like
 that just creates propagation problems, so it just isn't done.
>>> As someone with a longer usenet background, it can be done, and there
>>> isn't any great reason not to do so in this case. But I did already
>>> suggest creating a new moderated group instead if people feel that's
>>> better.
>> Not so sure you are longer than me, I started on usenet is the late 80s
>> with dial up.
> Yes, me too ;-)
>
>>> Are you unaware that the group is already gatewayed to a moderated
>>> mailing list for which all of that work is already done? The only
>>> difference is that currently that good work is then wasted and thrown
>>> away from the point of view of the group participants.
>> The big difference is that the mailing list directly gets its email from
>> the senders, and that was totally over SMTP so some From: verification
>> is possible, thus it make sense to let email addresses be validated for
>> whitelisting. Submissions from the moderated group have lost all
>> traceability to the original sender when it get forwarded via the NNTP
>> transportation link, so such a white list might not be as viable, and on
>> usenet many people intentionally post without valid From addresses, so a
>> LOT more messages will end up in the moderation queue, so more work for
>> the moderators.
> I think you're fundamentally missing the point that the newsgroup is
> *already gatewayed to the mailing list*. Marking the group moderated
> will not result in any more work for the moderators. In fact what you
> say above is the opposite of the truth, as it will result in the link
> between the poster and the moderators becoming more direct, not less
> direct.

It will. First, python-list@python.org is NOT a "Moderated" mailing list
by the standard definition of such. Maybe you could call it Moderatable,
but most messages make it to the list without any intervention by a
moderator. The Mailman software that runs the list allows the
administrators of the list to put select filters on posts, or to make
certain posters moderated and need their posts reviewed, but most posts
go through automatically and immediately. This works because the SMTP
Email system have a must better presumption of the From address in the
message actually being who the sender is then under NNTP rules. Forging
it is detectable in many cases and generally a violation of the TOS for
most providers (and the ones that don't can easily be blocked).

While you could setup a robo-moderator to do a similar thing, Usenet
posters will not have 'pre-subscribed' before posting, and the From
address is no where near as relaible as invalid From addresses ARE
allowed, and since the message comes via a NNTP injection source relay,
non-verifiable. This make the job a LOT harder.

The current setup does put rules at the gateway that controls what gets
onto the mailing list, and because it IS a gateway, there are easier
grounds to establish that some posts just won't be gated over from
usenet to the mailing list. Putting those same limits onto the moderated
group itself would be against Usenet norms. This would mean that the
Usenet moderation queue WILL require significant additional work over
what is currently being done for the mailing list.

If the idea is just to provide a NNTP accessible version of the mailing
list, than perhaps rather than a comp.* group, putting it on gmane would
be a viable option, that avoids some of the Usenet issues.

-- 
Richard Damon

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2021-05-06, Skip Montanaro  wrote:
>> Are you unaware that the group is already gatewayed to a moderated
>> mailing list for which all of that work is already done?
>
> What is this moderation of which you speak? I'm one of the Python
> postmasters (I maintain the SpamBayes setup) and am aware of a
> multi-part tool chain (black hole lists, SpamBayes, greylisting, etc),
> but not of human moderation on a grand scale, just of the relatively
> few posts which are held for the admins/moderators by SpamBayes. My
> definition of "moderation" is that a human vets every post.

That's not a definition that anyone else would use, I think,
and I say that as a moderator of a Usenet group..

> That's certainly not the case for python-list@python.org. Posts gated
> from comp.lang.python to the mailing list only get passed through
> SpamBayes. All other elements of the tool chain occur ahead of the
> gateway.
>
> If we are using two different definitions of "moderation" I think it
> is important to be clear what we mean.

Are you saying that the messages that appear occasionally from people
such as Ethan Furman claiming to be moderators and alleging that
particular people have been banned or suspended are lies? And that the
message I received once saying that my comp.lang.python post had been
rejected from the list was also a lie?
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Skip Montanaro]

> Are you unaware that the group is already gatewayed to a moderated
> mailing list for which all of that work is already done?

What is this moderation of which you speak? I'm one of the Python
postmasters (I maintain the SpamBayes setup) and am aware of a
multi-part tool chain (black hole lists, SpamBayes, greylisting, etc),
but not of human moderation on a grand scale, just of the relatively
few posts which are held for the admins/moderators by SpamBayes. My
definition of "moderation" is that a human vets every post. That's
certainly not the case for python-list@python.org. Posts gated from
comp.lang.python to the mailing list only get passed through
SpamBayes. All other elements of the tool chain occur ahead of the
gateway.

If we are using two different definitions of "moderation" I think it
is important to be clear what we mean.

Skip
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon  wrote:
> On 5/5/21 10:44 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>> On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon  wrote:
>>> As someone with a long usenet background, converting the existing group
>>> to moderated would be practically impossible. It just isn't done. It
>>> would need to be a new group created with the .moderated tag. The
>>> problem is that some servers won't change and getting things mixed like
>>> that just creates propagation problems, so it just isn't done.
>> As someone with a longer usenet background, it can be done, and there
>> isn't any great reason not to do so in this case. But I did already
>> suggest creating a new moderated group instead if people feel that's
>> better.
>
> Not so sure you are longer than me, I started on usenet is the late 80s
> with dial up.

Yes, me too ;-)

>> Are you unaware that the group is already gatewayed to a moderated
>> mailing list for which all of that work is already done? The only
>> difference is that currently that good work is then wasted and thrown
>> away from the point of view of the group participants.
>
> The big difference is that the mailing list directly gets its email from
> the senders, and that was totally over SMTP so some From: verification
> is possible, thus it make sense to let email addresses be validated for
> whitelisting. Submissions from the moderated group have lost all
> traceability to the original sender when it get forwarded via the NNTP
> transportation link, so such a white list might not be as viable, and on
> usenet many people intentionally post without valid From addresses, so a
> LOT more messages will end up in the moderation queue, so more work for
> the moderators.

I think you're fundamentally missing the point that the newsgroup is
*already gatewayed to the mailing list*. Marking the group moderated
will not result in any more work for the moderators. In fact what you
say above is the opposite of the truth, as it will result in the link
between the poster and the moderators becoming more direct, not less
direct.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Chris Green]

Paul Rubin  wrote:
> "Avi Gross"  writes:
> > Given some notice, what stops anyone from joining the mailing list before
> > there is a divorce between the forums?
> 
> Some of us don't want to be on mailing lists, and prefer using news
> client software.

I am in agreement here, if a list/group is available both on Usenet
and as a mailing list then I will always use the Usenet/NNTP access as
it is simply better for discussion groups like this.

I do have a 'proper' threaded mail reader (mutt) that I use for
reading lists but a 'proper' newreader that uses that extra facilities
of NNTP is always going to be better.

So my vote is to keep comp.lang.python as it is in terms of content,
whether that means changing it to a moderated group or something else
I don't mind.

The current level of 'noise' is IMHO acceptable, if the people who
deal with it now are OK to continue then let's not change anything.

-- 
Chris Green
·
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Richard Damon]

On 5/5/21 10:44 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon  wrote:
>> On 5/5/21 9:40 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>>> On 2021-05-06, Paul Bryan  wrote:
 What's involved in moderating c.l.p? Would there be volunteers willing
 to do so?
>>> Nothing at all is involved, apart from changing the status of the group.
>>> The moderation would be done by the same people, in the same way, as the
>>> moderation of the list is done now. They wouldn't need to do any work
>>> they don't already do.
>> As someone with a long usenet background, converting the existing group
>> to moderated would be practically impossible. It just isn't done. It
>> would need to be a new group created with the .moderated tag. The
>> problem is that some servers won't change and getting things mixed like
>> that just creates propagation problems, so it just isn't done.
> As someone with a longer usenet background, it can be done, and there
> isn't any great reason not to do so in this case. But I did already
> suggest creating a new moderated group instead if people feel that's
> better.

Not so sure you are longer than me, I started on usenet is the late 80s
with dial up.

Yes, there have been a few successful conversions, but it is a lot of
work, and there may be too many servers that don't really care that
might get it wrong (google groups is one that could easily not care if
they break things, they have already broken comp.lang.c++

>
>> Basically, some machine would need to be designated to get all the
>> submissions to the group, emailed to it, and people would need to log
>> into the email account on that computer to approve all the posts, or a
>> robot could perhaps be setup to auto-approve most based on some rules.
> Are you unaware that the group is already gatewayed to a moderated
> mailing list for which all of that work is already done? The only
> difference is that currently that good work is then wasted and thrown
> away from the point of view of the group participants.

The big difference is that the mailing list directly gets its email from
the senders, and that was totally over SMTP so some From: verification
is possible, thus it make sense to let email addresses be validated for
whitelisting. Submissions from the moderated group have lost all
traceability to the original sender when it get forwarded via the NNTP
transportation link, so such a white list might not be as viable, and on
usenet many people intentionally post without valid From addresses, so a
LOT more messages will end up in the moderation queue, so more work for
the moderators.

-- 
Richard Damon

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2021-05-06, Richard Damon  wrote:
> On 5/5/21 9:40 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
>> On 2021-05-06, Paul Bryan  wrote:
>>> What's involved in moderating c.l.p? Would there be volunteers willing
>>> to do so?
>> Nothing at all is involved, apart from changing the status of the group.
>> The moderation would be done by the same people, in the same way, as the
>> moderation of the list is done now. They wouldn't need to do any work
>> they don't already do.
>
> As someone with a long usenet background, converting the existing group
> to moderated would be practically impossible. It just isn't done. It
> would need to be a new group created with the .moderated tag. The
> problem is that some servers won't change and getting things mixed like
> that just creates propagation problems, so it just isn't done.

As someone with a longer usenet background, it can be done, and there
isn't any great reason not to do so in this case. But I did already
suggest creating a new moderated group instead if people feel that's
better.

> Basically, some machine would need to be designated to get all the
> submissions to the group, emailed to it, and people would need to log
> into the email account on that computer to approve all the posts, or a
> robot could perhaps be setup to auto-approve most based on some rules.

Are you unaware that the group is already gatewayed to a moderated
mailing list for which all of that work is already done? The only
difference is that currently that good work is then wasted and thrown
away from the point of view of the group participants.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Richard Damon]

On 5/5/21 9:40 PM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Paul Bryan  wrote:
>> What's involved in moderating c.l.p? Would there be volunteers willing
>> to do so?
> Nothing at all is involved, apart from changing the status of the group.
> The moderation would be done by the same people, in the same way, as the
> moderation of the list is done now. They wouldn't need to do any work
> they don't already do.

As someone with a long usenet background, converting the existing group
to moderated would be practically impossible. It just isn't done. It
would need to be a new group created with the .moderated tag. The
problem is that some servers won't change and getting things mixed like
that just creates propagation problems, so it just isn't done.

Basically, some machine would need to be designated to get all the
submissions to the group, emailed to it, and people would need to log
into the email account on that computer to approve all the posts, or a
robot could perhaps be setup to auto-approve most based on some rules.

-- 
Richard Damon

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2021-05-06, Paul Bryan  wrote:
> What's involved in moderating c.l.p? Would there be volunteers willing
> to do so?

Nothing at all is involved, apart from changing the status of the group.
The moderation would be done by the same people, in the same way, as the
moderation of the list is done now. They wouldn't need to do any work
they don't already do.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Paul Bryan]

What's involved in moderating c.l.p? Would there be volunteers willing
to do so?

On Thu, 2021-05-06 at 00:43 +, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> > On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 10:32 AM Paul Bryan  wrote:
> > > 
> > > Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity
> > > for use
> > > in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
> > > staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect
> > > comp.lang.python from
> > > the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate
> > > independently.
> > > 
> > 
> > As someone who exclusively follows the mailing list, I selfishly
> > want
> > to support this, as it would notably improve the signal-to-noise
> > ratio. But I'm aware that there are a number of good people who
> > currently use the newsgroup, and those people would then be
> > abandoned
> > in the cess-pool.
> 
> Counter-proposal that I have suggested several times before that
> would
> solve both these problems: make the newsgroup moderated.
> 
> (Or, I suppose, create comp.lang.python.moderated and gateway it
> to the mailing list, and disconnect comp.lang.python from the list.)

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 10:43 AM Avi Gross via Python-list
 wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> Given some notice, what stops anyone from joining the mailing list before
> there is a divorce between the forums?

Nothing! Nothing at all. That is, if you're talking about *people*.
People are absolutely welcome to join. The reason the S/N would
improve is all the non-people who post to the newsgroup.

But there are some people who simply don't want to use the mailing
list, and that's currently a fully-welcomed option. I won't name
names, but there definitely are people who would prefer a newsreader,
so the gateway is serving them very well.

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2021-05-06, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 10:32 AM Paul Bryan  wrote:
>>
>> Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for use
>> in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
>> staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python from
>> the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.
>>
>
> As someone who exclusively follows the mailing list, I selfishly want
> to support this, as it would notably improve the signal-to-noise
> ratio. But I'm aware that there are a number of good people who
> currently use the newsgroup, and those people would then be abandoned
> in the cess-pool.

Counter-proposal that I have suggested several times before that would
solve both these problems: make the newsgroup moderated.

(Or, I suppose, create comp.lang.python.moderated and gateway it
to the mailing list, and disconnect comp.lang.python from the list.)
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

RE: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Avi Gross via Python-list]

Chris,

Given some notice, what stops anyone from joining the mailing list before
there is a divorce between the forums?

Everybody has trivial access to an email account these days and many mailers
allow incoming messages that fit a pattern to be placed in some names folder
to be read as a group if one wishes.

The difference would include less spoofing but also the ability to remove
and that are causing annoyance here.

Avi

-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of Chris Angelico
Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2021 8:37 PM
To: Python 
Subject: Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 10:32 AM Paul Bryan  wrote:
>
> Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for 
> use in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for 
> staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python 
> from the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.
>

As someone who exclusively follows the mailing list, I selfishly want to
support this, as it would notably improve the signal-to-noise ratio. But I'm
aware that there are a number of good people who currently use the
newsgroup, and those people would then be abandoned in the cess-pool.

ChrisA
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 10:32 AM Paul Bryan  wrote:
>
> Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for use
> in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
> staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python from
> the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.
>

As someone who exclusively follows the mailing list, I selfishly want
to support this, as it would notably improve the signal-to-noise
ratio. But I'm aware that there are a number of good people who
currently use the newsgroup, and those people would then be abandoned
in the cess-pool.

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Proposal: Disconnect comp.lang.python from python-list

[Paul Bryan]

Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for use
in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python from
the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.

Paul

-- 
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