Re: Python - Web Display Technology
Edward Elliott wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Flash also behaves consistently cross-browser, cross/platform -- and features cannot be disabled by the user. ^^ And that's a good thing? Maybe for Macromedia, not for us. This smells like astroturf. Flash can load and play external MP3 audio. Flash can render text... Flash can load/parse/serialize/send XML. Flash can access you webcam, allowing you to create your own video chat/IM app. Flash can programatically-build vector shapes, gradients, and fills. It dices! It splices! Flash can heat your coffee, walk your dog, and change your baby! It's the stupendous, miraculous, fantabulous app you can't live without! Flash can #animate# stuff!!! Flash is like a 2 MB download that works in almost *every* browser out there. ...it's pretty phenomenal that all those features could have been crammed into it.(like: a built-in interpreter for a late-version-EcmaScript-compliant scripting language -- that, in many ways, is far more capable than what is available w/ JavaScript in most browsers!) *** This feature can be used for a web-based CMS! It would blow-away anything (non-Java) now available for managing and uploading assets. - Show quoted text - Ugh, definitely astroturf. The most telling thing of all is that most of the web sites with a Flash intro find it necessary to provide a bypass intro button. People quickly tire of this stuff. It's just, well, flashy :-) Unfortunately it's difficult to get someone who's in love with a proprietary technology to admit that open standards are preferable. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com Love me, love my blog http://holdenweb.blogspot.com Recent Ramblings http://del.icio.us/steve.holden -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
We don't need any proprietary junk to make a nice-look website: http://www.csszengarden.com You can navigate in this site with any kind of browser, even graphical or text-based, like lynx. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
Ben Finney wrote:
SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I keep trying to understand why people like HTML/JS, I don't think I
am gonna understand.
It's fairly simple: HTML, CSS and JavaScript have all been
standardised independent of any single corporation, and are freely
implementable, resulting in competing free software
implementations. We can choose or improve upon the implementation we
like, or make our own, and share the result with others.
Also: HTML is an easy to parse text format. I can programatically grab
infos from HTML pages. Search engines can do it to.
I guess for better or worse, Flash is a very different mindset and
approach to the web.
One that shares none of the above qualities.
indeed.
--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])
--
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Re: Python - Web Display Technology
I would. Most people would, once they realize that shiny/flashy is information too. High production values affect value-determining centers of the brain, bypassing the linguistic and logical centers. They make you understand that the thing you're being presented is worth something. Most of the time, it's only worth a fat cash profit to the person doing the presenting, who is giving you a piece of junk at an inflated price. But your brain doesn't care. It's got a shortcut to your wallet, and the information on the screen is accessing that. --Blair This was the most useful comment for me. I never fully considered that Flash was aiming at a different part of the brain. HTML is resonant with the mindset of Python, Flash is not. Perceptual match vs perceptual mismatch. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But your brain doesn't care. It's got a shortcut to your wallet, and the information on the screen is accessing that. This was the most useful comment for me. I never fully considered that Flash was aiming at a different part of the brain. HTML is resonant with the mindset of Python, Flash is not. Perceptual match vs perceptual mismatch. I'm reminded of a passage in Cryptonomicon, about a guy trying to gather info about how to organize a scuba dive to investigate a 150-meter-deep shipwreck. He gets hold of a bunch of diving books and finds that the tables in them only go down to 1/3rd of that depth and are useless: Randy closes up all of the books and looks at them peevishly for a while. They are all nice new books with color photographs on the covers. He picked them off the shelf because (getting introspective here) he is a computer guy, and in the computer world any book printed more than two months ago is a campy nostalgia item. Investigating a little more, he finds that all three of these shiny new books have been personally autographed by the authors, with long personal inscriptions: two addressed to Doug, and one to Amy. The one to Amy has obviously been written by a man who is desperately in love with her. Reading it is like moisturizing with Tabasco. He concludes that these are all consumer-grade diving books written for rum-drenched tourists, and furthermore that the publishers probably had teams of lawyers go over them one word at a time to make sure there would not be liability trouble. That the contents of these books, therefore, probably represent about one percent of everything that the authors actually know about diving, but that the lawyers have made sure that the authors don't even -mention- that. Randy does a sorting procedure on the diving books now: he ignores anything that has color photographs, or that appears to have been published within the last twenty years, or that has any quotes on the back cover containing the words stunning, superb, user-friendly,or, worst of all, easy-to-understand. He looks for old, thick books with worn-out bindings and block-lettered titles like DIVE MANUAL. Anything with angry marginal notes written by Doug Shaftoe gets extra points. The Python mindset? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SamFeltus wrote: Here is a visual argument, http://samfeltus.com/swf/contact_globes.swf Here's a text-based argument. If I search Golge for gardener, Athens, GA then Google's spiders won't have recorded your contact page. So I don't find you as a local gardener, so I don't hire you for my mansion in Athens. Your contact page is arguably pretty, but pretty just isn't selling for that particular sort of page. That's why Flash often comes with a heapin' helpin' o' metadata. --Blair -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
I guess for better or worse, Flash is a very different mindset and approach to the web. I do find it interesting that Flash folks readily will acknowledge that Flash has shortcomings, yet anti-Flash folks seem to have great difficulty acknowledging Flash's positive features over HTML. Such situations always make me suspicious Ludditism is at work. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I do find it interesting that Flash folks readily will acknowledge that Flash has shortcomings, yet anti-Flash folks seem to have great difficulty acknowledging Flash's positive features over HTML. Such situations always make me suspicious Ludditism is at work. Nobody doubts that Flash has positive features. The question is whether the positives are worth the negatives. For many of us, the answer is no. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus enlightened us with: I do find it interesting that Flash folks readily will acknowledge that Flash has shortcomings yet anti-Flash folks seem to have great difficulty acknowledging Flash's positive features over HTML. I must say I've never seen a pro-Flash person acknowledging that 99.9% of the Flash usage is done badly. Google Video is a nice example of more or less good Flash usage, although it's a shame they say Download for Windows/Mac instead of Download as AVI - but that's got nothing to do with Flash ;-) Such situations always make me suspicious Ludditism is at work. If you suspect that, you didn't understand a single thing about the usability drawbacks I told you about. Not being able to use a scrollwheel, loss of the backbutton-functionality, and fonts that don't scale along with the browser's font, are all too common practice with Flash websites. I love new technology, as long as it's good technology. I've had my mouse with tiltwheel for a short time, and I'm completely hooked to the new functionality. Sybren -- The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? Frank Zappa -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
I don't agree with 99.9%, but the majority of Flash sites are done poorly. Mine is certainly sub-optimal, :) 1. Loss of back button Isn't this really a myth? A page with a time dimension, be it Flash, HTML/JS or whatever, breaks the back button. A page without a time dimension doesn't break the back button. Should we now and forever more give up the time dimension to avoid breaking the back button. Perhaps for non-text sites, the back button is an anachronism? Fonts are problematic in Flash, this is a weakness of Flash. Scaling Fonts is even more problematic, but, fonts are an issue in any precise design on the web. I wouldn't argue Flash is better for text sites at the moment, due to Search Engine shortcomings. As for the blind issue,that makes no sense to me. Is the suggestion that we should give up using images in web sites since some people can't see them. Might as well throw out the use of the img tag while we are at it? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
Perhaps the my question should be this, and don't get me wrong, I REALLY like Python. Perhaps Python is not a great language to focus on for someone with a strong interest in Flash and little interest in HTML? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As for the blind issue,that makes no sense to me. Is the suggestion that we should give up using images in web sites since some people can't see them. Might as well throw out the use of the img tag while we are at it? Img tags should always have alt text describing the image, for those unable or unwilling to view the image (unwilling might be because of the download time). That bypasses the need to view the image. A heck of a lot of flash sites have no way to bypass the flash. Perhaps Python is not a great language to focus on for someone with a strong interest in Flash and little interest in HTML? Shrug, I don't see much relation, except that Python programmers tend to be tasteful and not care about Flash much. Maybe if you stick around here, you'll see the light ;-). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
Sybren Stuvel wrote: Heiko Wundram enlightened us with: And: the web is a platform to offer _information_. Not to offer shiny graphics/sound [...] Many would disagree... Not me, but I know a lot of people that would. I would. Most people would, once they realize that shiny/flashy is information too. High production values affect value-determining centers of the brain, bypassing the linguistic and logical centers. They make you understand that the thing you're being presented is worth something. Most of the time, it's only worth a fat cash profit to the person doing the presenting, who is giving you a piece of junk at an inflated price. But your brain doesn't care. It's got a shortcut to your wallet, and the information on the screen is accessing that. --Blair -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus wrote: Here is a visual argument, http://samfeltus.com/swf/contact_globes.swf Here's a text-based argument. If I search Golge for gardener, Athens, GA then Google's spiders won't have recorded your contact page. So I don't find you as a local gardener, so I don't hire you for my mansion in Athens. Your contact page is arguably pretty, but pretty just isn't selling for that particular sort of page. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus wrote: 1. Loss of back button Isn't this really a myth? A page with a time dimension, be it Flash, HTML/JS or whatever, breaks the back button. A page without a time dimension doesn't break the back button. Should we now and forever more give up the time dimension to avoid breaking the back button. Perhaps for non-text sites, the back button is an anachronism? A time-based push model of content delivery, that would be television. One of the web's defining features is it lets you retrieve information in your own order at your own pace. Pages with an unalterable 'time dimension' are nothing more than interactive tv at best. Flash is a fine technology, just not a good one for the web. It's appropriate for games and video clips embedded in a page and that's about it. Other content has no business being in Flash. Usability problems aren't just an artifact of the implementation, they're part of Flash's design. -- Edward Elliott UC Berkeley School of Law (Boalt Hall) complangpython at eddeye dot net -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
This has all been very helpful. I've been struggling for awhile on which direction to go with computer programming. I realize the problem with HTML and the P language family is that although it makes sense to me, it doesn't really resonate with my perspective. Flash definitely does. I finally realize what it is that bothers me about HTML/JS/Python/Perl/PHP... I am uncomfortable with the seperating of the code from the visual/time element, as well as the lack of emphasis on the visual/time element. Perhaps that is related to years of being a gardener? Anyways, this question no longer vexates me. HTML is for one ecosystem, Flash is for another. There is room for both. Next question...:) I am not a big Perl/PHP fan, I find Python with SimpleJSON, SQLObject and the included Python batteries pretty well does all I want to do server side. Is it correct to think that is gonna be a solid, simple solution for a Flash coder to use server side? Or, is there something better and easier? (In advance, I find XML irritating compared to JSON) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus enlightened us with: 1. Loss of back button Isn't this really a myth? No, it isn't a myth. Pressing the back button is the action second most performed in a browser, clicking a link being the first. People want to go back from where they came. A page with a time dimension, be it Flash, HTML/JS or whatever, breaks the back button. No it doesn't. If something is interactive and lets the user go somewhere by performing an action, they expect to be able to go back using the back button. People want to be in control over their computer, their time, and their attention. If they aren't, they go away. Fonts are problematic in Flash, this is a weakness of Flash. Scaling Fonts is even more problematic, but, fonts are an issue in any precise design on the web. Websites shouldn't be designed to be pixel-perfect. They should be designed to scale and stretch, and to accommodate a user's wishes. If you want something exactly like you envision it, go direct a movie. I wouldn't argue Flash is better for text sites at the moment, due to Search Engine shortcomings. And due to being incompatible with the browser's own search functionality. As for the blind issue,that makes no sense to me. Is the suggestion that we should give up using images in web sites since some people can't see them. Might as well throw out the use of the img tag while we are at it? Go and read some usability studies, and get acquainted with the HTML standards, before commenting on them. The 'alt' attribute is mandatory, and should describe the image for those who can only interpret text. Sybren -- The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? Frank Zappa -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am uncomfortable with the seperating of the code from the visual/time element, as well as the lack of emphasis on the visual/time element. Maybe you should buy a camcorder and make movies, instead of doing web sites. I am not a big Perl/PHP fan, I find Python with SimpleJSON, SQLObject and the included Python batteries pretty well does all I want to do server side. Is it correct to think that is gonna be a solid, simple solution for a Flash coder to use server side? Or, is there something better and easier? (In advance, I find XML irritating compared to JSON) Well, you won't find many Perl/PHP fans here, though PHP is (for now) probably simpler than Python to get started and do basic dynamic Web sites with. Python beats PHP once the backend logic gets complex enough that PHP's language deficiencies outweigh its ease of installation. I don't know if that applies to what you're doing. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
Nah, the world needs more Flashy WebSites, :) But I do renounce my uglier criticisms of HTML. I realize now it is just a completely different mindset, not a bad technology. Python is far easier than PHP IMO. Especially if there is minimal HTML, I mostly just want to get at a database and manipulate symbols. I know Python pretty well, PHP (or Ruby) would take some study. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
Sybren Stuvel schreef: SamFeltus enlightened us with: 1. Loss of back button Isn't this really a myth? No, it isn't a myth. Pressing the back button is the action second most performed in a browser, clicking a link being the first. People want to go back from where they came. I don't even use the back button very much: if there's any chance that I'm going to want to return to the current page, I open new links in new tabs. That way I can be sure that I can return to the page exactly as it is now. With Flash, that approach fails too. One more minus for Flash on the web. -- If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants. -- Isaac Newton Roel Schroeven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
Don't worry, you won't have to look if it makes you feel dirty... :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I do find it interesting that Flash folks readily will acknowledge that Flash has shortcomings, yet anti-Flash folks seem to have great difficulty acknowledging Flash's positive features over HTML. Such situations always make me suspicious Ludditism is at work. I find it tiresome that Flash apologists believe technical advantages can overcome a need for open, community-driven, vendor-independent standards. -- \ If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting | `\ them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good | _o__) reason. -- Jack Handey | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
I find it tiresome that Flash apologists believe technical advantages can overcome a need for open, community-driven, vendor-independent standards. :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
None of you seem to know what you are talking about. Flash should be used where one needs to use Flash, and HTML/JS/CSS (+XML+XSLT) likewise. Flash can play video. That is not possible w/ HTML/CSS/JS. Flash also behaves consistently cross-browser, cross/platform -- and most features cannot be disabled by the user. (compare that to a user being able to turn off JS, or Java -- something often mandated in a corporate environment.) It's either all on or all off. Flash has such a large install base, that it could be argued it is the most widely available platform for delivering media-rich applications over the web. (And code does not involve anywhere near the same level of attention to kludges and workarounds that one would have to use to replicate similar feature -- where possible -- in different browsers and browser *versions.*) -- Not to sound like I work for MM/Adobe, but, here's what the Flash Player can do at *run time*: Flash can load and play external MP3 audio. Flash can render text -- w/ custom-defined and packaged fonts. (not possible in a browser!) It can apply a limited set of CSS to the rendered text, BTW. Flash can load/parse/serialize/send XML. Flash can POST and GET a variety of data (true, it may access browser controls to manage this.) Flash can access you webcam, allowing you to create your own video chat/IM app. Flash can programatically-build vector shapes, gradients, and fills. Flash can load and render jpegs, gifs(v8), and pngs(v8) -- and in version 8, composite all that w/ vector graphics (+video?) -- *and,* sample the resulting display pixel by pixel. (passing that data back to a server would allow dynamic creation of a jpeg or gif.) Flash 8 has a new file upload ability that goes beyond what a browser is capable of: You can *multi-select* files, filter files by type or size, and have programatic access to the state of the upload. It accesses an Operating System GUI control to do this -- and I have tested that these features work in MSIE, Moz FF, and Safari on OSX. *** Flash can #animate# stuff!!! Flash is like a 2 MB download that works in almost *every* browser out there. ...it's pretty phenomenal that all those features could have been crammed into it.(like: a built-in interpreter for a late-version-EcmaScript-compliant scripting language -- that, in many ways, is far more capable than what is available w/ JavaScript in most browsers!) *** This feature can be used for a web-based CMS! It would blow-away anything (non-Java) now available for managing and uploading assets. - Show quoted text - -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Flash is like a 2 MB download that works in almost *every* browser out there. Except all the browsers on platforms Macromedia have not chosen to support. And no-one else can implement it on those platforms, except by guessing about the closed implementation specification that Macromedia have an interest in keeping a secret. Whereas HTML, CSS and any other technologies standardised by standards bodies have open specifications and multiple independent compatible implementations, and anyone who finds their platform under-supported can follow the open specifications and get a full working implementation. -- \ From the moment I picked your book up until I laid it down I | `\was convulsed with laughter. Someday I intend reading it. -- | _o__) Groucho Marx | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
I am in agreement that open standards are better. I also wish the open standards bodies would work more creatively, to bring us the most advanced standards, and not some echo of yesterdays technology. But, too me, saying No Flash is saying No Source if not Open Source. But, for me, it is better Closed Source over No Source. Here is a visual argument, I would love to see a list of AJAX and SVG sites that display excellent graphics. http://bacardimojito.com/main.swf http://tokyoplastic.com/LF.swf http://coolbreathpower.com/ http://www.peterjoel.com/flash8previews/candleFlame.html http://shiroganeya.co.jp/main_en.html http://samfeltus.com/swf/contact_globes.swf http://justforthefofit.com/ http://mochiland.com/ http://obleek.com/iraq/index.html http://www.flashbum.com/v4/ http://spaceinvaders.de/ (example of antiquated graphics simply handled by Flash) It is my opinion, certainly not fact, that Python is an extraordinary language, that tends to be very ordinary when it comes to web display technology, and that it shouldn't be this way. http://samfeltus.com/swf/stamplicker.swf -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
[EMAIL PROTECTED] enlightened us with: None of you seem to know what you are talking about. That's not a way to make friends. I very well know what I'm talking about. None of the issues I've raised are negated by what you say, so every single one still stands. Flash also behaves consistently cross-browser, cross/platform That's where you are wrong. Flash on Mac/MSIE behaves differently than other platform/browser combinations. There are also many browsers and platforms that can't use Flash. Even though Flash is available for Linux, it isn't available for my Zaurus, for instance. -- and most features cannot be disabled by the user. (compare that to a user being able to turn off JS, or Java -- something often mandated in a corporate environment.) It's either all on or all off. And in many corporate environments, it's off. Flash has such a large install base, that it could be argued it is the most widely available platform for delivering media-rich applications over the web. True, but 99.9% of all Flash usage is more an annoyance than truely useful and rich. (And code does not involve anywhere near the same level of attention to kludges and workarounds that one would have to use to replicate similar feature -- where possible -- in different browsers and browser *versions.*) -- ActionScript is a horrible klidge it itself. Don't try to portrait it as something else. Not to sound like I work for MM/Adobe, but, here's what the Flash Player can do at *run time*: When should it do that if not at run time? At compile time? Flash can render text -- w/ custom-defined and packaged fonts. (not possible in a browser!) It can apply a limited set of CSS to the rendered text, BTW. But when using my scrollwheel to scroll the page it is used on, my browser stops scrolling when the mouse is over such a flash file. Very annoying! Flash can load/parse/serialize/send XML. So can JavaScript. Flash can POST and GET a variety of data (true, it may access browser controls to manage this.) So can HTML. Flash can access you webcam, allowing you to create your own video chat/IM app. So can NetMeeting and many others. Flash can load and render jpegs, gifs(v8), and pngs(v8) -- and in version 8, composite all that w/ vector graphics (+video?) -- *and,* sample the resulting display pixel by pixel. (passing that data back to a server would allow dynamic creation of a jpeg or gif.) But version 8 is not even available for Linux. Flash 8 has a new file upload ability that goes beyond what a browser is capable of: You can *multi-select* files, filter files by type or size, and have programatic access to the state of the upload. It accesses an Operating System GUI control to do this -- and I have tested that these features work in MSIE, Moz FF, and Safari on OSX. *** But version 8 is not even available for Linux. Flash can #animate# stuff!!! So can GIF and MNG. Flash is like a 2 MB download that works in almost *every* browser out there. Not on Linux/x86, nor Liinux/ARM, nor Linux/MIPS, (like: a built-in interpreter for a late-version-EcmaScript-compliant scripting language -- that, in many ways, is far more capable than what is available w/ JavaScript in most browsers!) But it is horrible to work with. I can know, I've had to develop quite a few advanced Flash websites for my work. My work even went to the high folks at Disney. I don't need to brag, but apparently I do need to show you I *do* know what I'm talking about. *** This feature can be used for a web-based CMS! It would blow-away anything (non-Java) now available for managing and uploading assets. LOL I can write an application that runs circles around Flash. And it would have the advantage it isn't web-based either - yes, I see that as an advantage. Web-based is overrated. I ask of you to take a look at the serious issues many people have with Flash. It's not just geeks and nerds that are annoyed by non-functioning scrollwheels, badly designed GUIs, and badly searchable websites. People that are less familiar with the web are even more annoyed, but are less capable of expressing that in a structured and well-defined way, because they simply lack the jargon. Sybren -- The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? Frank Zappa -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus schreef: Here is a visual argument, I would love to see a list of AJAX and SVG sites that display excellent graphics. http://bacardimojito.com/main.swf http://tokyoplastic.com/LF.swf http://coolbreathpower.com/ http://www.peterjoel.com/flash8previews/candleFlame.html http://shiroganeya.co.jp/main_en.html http://samfeltus.com/swf/contact_globes.swf http://justforthefofit.com/ http://mochiland.com/ http://obleek.com/iraq/index.html http://www.flashbum.com/v4/ http://spaceinvaders.de/ (example of antiquated graphics simply handled by Flash) In my humble opinion, those sites are an argument _against_ the use of Flash on websites. They may look pretty (I don't think they do, but I can imagine there are people out there who like the looks of those sites), but they fail as websites: long load times and especially such horrible navigation is a big no-no. I guess there is a place for Flash, but it's certainly not appropriate as an alternative for websites. I admit that they _can_ be useful as objects on a pages, for example the games on the last site you mention. But please don't use Flash to design the website itself. -- If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants. -- Isaac Newton Roel Schroeven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Flash also behaves consistently cross-browser, cross/platform -- and features cannot be disabled by the user. ^^ And that's a good thing? Maybe for Macromedia, not for us. This smells like astroturf. Flash can load and play external MP3 audio. Flash can render text... Flash can load/parse/serialize/send XML. Flash can access you webcam, allowing you to create your own video chat/IM app. Flash can programatically-build vector shapes, gradients, and fills. It dices! It splices! Flash can heat your coffee, walk your dog, and change your baby! It's the stupendous, miraculous, fantabulous app you can't live without! Flash can #animate# stuff!!! Flash is like a 2 MB download that works in almost *every* browser out there. ...it's pretty phenomenal that all those features could have been crammed into it.(like: a built-in interpreter for a late-version-EcmaScript-compliant scripting language -- that, in many ways, is far more capable than what is available w/ JavaScript in most browsers!) *** This feature can be used for a web-based CMS! It would blow-away anything (non-Java) now available for managing and uploading assets. - Show quoted text - Ugh, definitely astroturf. -- Edward Elliott UC Berkeley School of Law (Boalt Hall) complangpython at eddeye dot net -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
Roel Schroeven wrote: SamFeltus schreef: Here is a visual argument, I would love to see a list of AJAX and SVG sites that display excellent graphics. [snip] In my humble opinion, those sites are an argument _against_ the use of Flash on websites. They may look pretty (I don't think they do, but I can imagine there are people out there who like the looks of those sites), but they fail as websites: long load times and especially such horrible navigation is a big no-no. A quote regarding web usability comes to mind: If you're website starts winning design awards, be afraid. Be very afraid. Unfortunately I can't locate proper attribution. It may have been Jakob Nielsen. -- Edward Elliott UC Berkeley School of Law (Boalt Hall) complangpython at eddeye dot net -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
Hmmm... It is interesting how something is terrible to one person, and great to another, and vice versa. I keep trying to understand why people like HTML/JS, I don't think I am gonna understand. I guess for better or worse, Flash is a very different mindset and approach to the web. Oh well, I love the simplicity of Python on the server. I just won't hold my breath waiting for anything cool and Flash-content related to arise in the Python world. :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
IMHO, there's nothing more annoying that a website showing me a progression bar, indicating how much time it will get to provide the information I'm looking for... And when the progression bar ends, I have to wait until the flashy graphics and stupid presentation shows me the go to html site... I use the web for working. I work in international trade and I'm all the time looking for new products, searching for information, technical specifications, etc, etc... Flash, when using sparingly, could give an elegant touch to a web site. But when abussed, it is very annoying. It makes me waist my time and my patience And finding a website that uses Flash apropiately, is very unusual. Most of the times, they are loaded with heavy animations (most of them boring). The more I see it, the more I like the old fashioned html style... And now with Vista, Avalon, and all those new buzzwords coming soon, I don't know where we are going...all I know is that we will need 1 GB of ram just to keep on seeing the same stupid animations that get on my way when I'm working... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I keep trying to understand why people like HTML/JS, I don't think I am gonna understand. It's fairly simple: HTML, CSS and JavaScript have all been standardised independent of any single corporation, and are freely implementable, resulting in competing free software implementations. We can choose or improve upon the implementation we like, or make our own, and share the result with others. I guess for better or worse, Flash is a very different mindset and approach to the web. One that shares none of the above qualities. -- \ If you ever teach a yodeling class, probably the hardest thing | `\ is to keep the students from just trying to yodel right off. | _o__) You see, we build to that. -- Jack Handey | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
As a final thought, seperate from the whole open source/search issue, which has obvious merit, it does seem Flash has many excellent ideas as a language/tool for creating/expressing non written ideas that are lacking in the HTML world. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
bruno at modulix [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SamFeltus wrote: I am trying to figure out why so little web development in Python uses Flash as a display technology. It seems most Python applications choose HTML/CSS/JS as the display technology, yet Flash is a far more powerful and elegant display technology. On the other hand, HTML/JS seems clunky and antiquated. I am a gardener, and not a coder by trade, but Flash seems to integrate just fine with Python. Anyways, what are the technical reasons for this? - Flash is a proprietary technology requiring a proprietary plugin. There seem to be at least two free implementations: Package: libswfdec0.3 Description: SWF (Macromedia Flash) decoder library A decoder library for Macromedia Flash animations, which are often found on web sites. This is the run-time portion of the library. Package: libflash0c2 Description: GPL Flash (SWF) Library - shared library The GPL Flash library is a set of functions that can be used by applications to play Flash movies. The core of the library is a portable graphic renderer that can be used to add SWF support to an application. . This package contains shared libraries needed to run programs that have been build against the library. - There aint actually no working Flash plugin for Mozilla on a 64bit processor - I just *can't* read Flash anims on my computer There are plugins based on the above libs. Maybe they work on 64 bit platforms. - Flash is meant to display animations, not web content - Flash content is not indexed by search engines - Flash content cannot be manipulated by normal text/HTML/XML tools - In Flash you can't set bookmarks - In Flash you can't use your browser's navigation functions - You can't print animations (x)html/css/js is neither 'clunky' nor 'antiquated' http://www.csszengarden.com/ is a nice example what you can do with pure HTML and CSS Florian -- http://www.florian-diesch.de/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
Florian Diesch enlightened us with: - Flash is a proprietary technology requiring a proprietary plugin. There seem to be at least two free implementations: But the website of OP together with the websites of many other people are incompatible with those, since they require the latest and greatest Macromedia Flash plugin; that's version 8, while the latest version for Linux is version 7. I doubt that the Free implementations are up to par with a version that hasn't even been released by Macromedia. Sybren -- The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? Frank Zappa -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Python - Web Display Technology
I am trying to figure out why so little web development in Python uses Flash as a display technology. It seems most Python applications choose HTML/CSS/JS as the display technology, yet Flash is a far more powerful and elegant display technology. On the other hand, HTML/JS seems clunky and antiquated. I am a gardener, and not a coder by trade, but Flash seems to integrate just fine with Python. Anyways, what are the technical reasons for this? http://SamFeltus.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
Am Donnerstag 18 Mai 2006 08:51 schrieb SamFeltus: I am trying to figure out why so little web development in Python uses Flash as a display technology. It seems most Python applications choose HTML/CSS/JS as the display technology, yet Flash is a far more powerful and elegant display technology. On the other hand, HTML/JS seems clunky and antiquated. I am a gardener, and not a coder by trade, but Flash seems to integrate just fine with Python. Anyways, what are the technical reasons for this? There no Python specific reason, but I refrain from using Flash because it requires more than just the usual browser (which is available everywhere). Using HTML/CSS/JS, I can make it so that the information I want to give to the user displays right on pretty much every computer that's available out there (think PS3), when I resort to techniques such as Flash or Java, I limit the number of people I can reach. Take me for example: I'm running Linux on AMD64, and there's no proper Flash implementation yet which I can plug into my Firefox. So, I'm out on any Flash page. If you want to exclude me from viewing the information you want to present, fine, use Flash. If you don't, don't use it. And: the web is a platform to offer _information_. Not to offer shiny graphics/sound, which is the only benefit Flash has to offer. To sum it up: Flash/Java considered evil here. But that's just my 5 cents. --- Heiko. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
Heiko Wundram enlightened us with: And: the web is a platform to offer _information_. Not to offer shiny graphics/sound [...] Many would disagree... Not me, but I know a lot of people that would. Sybren -- The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? Frank Zappa -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus enlightened us with: I am trying to figure out why so little web development in Python uses Flash as a display technology. There are a couple of reasons: - Flash is bad for websites that are 100% done inside the Flash movie. In such a case the back-button doesn't work anymore, which is a major usability issue. - In the above case, bookmarking a page doesn't work either. - You need an extra plugin. Even though it's available for the major OSses and hardware systems, it's not available for every platform that can run a browser. - The plugin is closed-source. - The format that is the source for the SWF files is a closed, proprietary format. - Many user-interface widgets are generally badly implemented in Flash. For instance, on many scrolling thingies, the scrollwheel doesn't work. Or, the regular scrollwheel works, but for scrolling horizontally the tilt wheel isn't supported. Another example: sometimes it's only clear what a link points to when you hover over it (revealing a text behind an image, for instance), which is impossible on some devices (think handhelds with a touch-screen). - Search engines don't understand Flash movies. They are also unable to link directly to relevant pages. - Many more reasons... It seems most Python applications choose HTML/CSS/JS as the display technology, yet Flash is a far more powerful and elegant display technology. Flash is indeed more powerful, but not elegant at all. On the other hand, HTML/JS seems clunky and antiquated. It's getting a lot better. Try using XHTML 1.1 and only up to date, platform/browser-independent JavaScript, it'll be much better. I am a gardener, and not a coder by trade, but Flash seems to integrate just fine with Python. It's absolute crap when it comes to coding. ActionScript stands almost perpendicular to Python when it comes to the Python way of thinking. In ActionScript there are many ways of doing the same thing, none of which are obvious. Another thing is that when you call a function that doesn't exist, that call is silently ignored. The same holds for getting the value of a non-existing variable. This makes debugging very difficult. http://SamFeltus.com Your site looks quite unstyled without flash... And I don't have Flash player 8... Sybren -- The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? Frank Zappa -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus wrote:
I am trying to figure out why so little web development in Python uses
Flash as a display technology. It seems most Python applications
choose HTML/CSS/JS as the display technology, yet Flash is a far more
powerful and elegant display technology. On the other hand, HTML/JS
seems clunky and antiquated. I am a gardener, and not a coder by
trade, but Flash seems to integrate just fine with Python. Anyways,
what are the technical reasons for this?
- Flash is a proprietary technology requiring a proprietary plugin.
- There aint actually no working Flash plugin for Mozilla on a 64bit
processor - I just *can't* read Flash anims on my computer
- Flash is meant to display animations, not web content
- Flash content is not indexed by search engines
- Flash content cannot be manipulated by normal text/HTML/XML tools
(x)html/css/js is neither 'clunky' nor 'antiquated' (and FWIW, Flash is
based on ActionScript, which is mostly javascript...).
--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It seems most Python applications choose HTML/CSS/JS as the display technology, These are open, freely-implementable, non-proprietary standards controlled by standards bodies. yet Flash is a far more powerful and elegant display technology. This is a proprietary, closed format controlled by a single corporation. -- \ He who allows oppression, shares the crime. -- Erasmus | `\ Darwin, grandfather of Charles Darwin | _o__) | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
I guess there isn't much to understand. If you are satisfied with a text based, static image web, that is light on artistic possabilities, all that HTML stuff is acceptable. Perhaps the HTML/JS group will even get off their rear ends and bring some decent cross platform graphics capabilities to the web one decade? Perhaps even bring some 90's style graphics to the browser one decade? WC3 at Work - Beware Falling Luddites -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
I guess there isn't much to understand. If you are satisfied with a text based, static image web, that is light on artistic possabilities, all that HTML stuff is acceptable. Perhaps the HTML/JS group will even get off their rear ends and bring some decent cross platform graphics capabilities to the web one decade? Perhaps even bring some 90's style graphics to the browser one decade? WC3 at Work - Beware Falling Luddites -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus wrote:
I guess there isn't much to understand. If you are satisfied with a
text based, static image web, that is light on artistic possabilities,
all that HTML stuff is acceptable.
1. artistic != animated.
2. the web has mostly been designed for text-based content.
Perhaps the HTML/JS group will even
get off their rear ends and bring some decent cross platform graphics
capabilities to the web one decade? Perhaps even bring some 90's style
graphics to the browser one decade?
Ever heard of SVG ?
FWIW, your site is maybe very artistic, but it's content doesn't show up
much in google :
http://www.google.com/search?q=site:samfeltus.com
Compare with:
http://www.google.com/search?q=site:python.org
--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus enlightened us with: I guess there isn't much to understand. If you are satisfied with a text based, static image web, that is light on artistic possabilities, all that HTML stuff is acceptable. You don't need Flash to be artistic. Perhaps the HTML/JS group will even get off their rear ends and bring some decent cross platform graphics capabilities to the web one decade? Perhaps you can get Mickeysoft to get SVG support in their browser. WC3 at Work - Beware Falling Luddites MSIE doesn't even properly support PNG files (at least last time I looked), so you should start blaming the people that actually don't implement all the goodies that are already there. Sybren -- The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? Frank Zappa -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus wrote: I guess there isn't much to understand. If you are satisfied with a text based, static image web, that is light on artistic possabilities, all that HTML stuff is acceptable. Personally, I always heave a big sigh of resignation when I'm on a site that uses Flash, because I just feel so locked in to that technology when it's running. It makes me feel very out of control when navigating the site. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I guess there isn't much to understand. If you are satisfied with a text based, static image web, that is light on artistic possabilities, all that HTML stuff is acceptable. Perhaps the HTML/JS group will even get off their rear ends and bring some decent cross platform graphics capabilities to the web one decade? Perhaps even bring some 90's style graphics to the browser one decade? If I want to watch movies, I'll go out and buy a TV set. For web sites, stick with HTML. I don't have (and refuse to install) the Flash plugin in my browser and it's a pain in the neck that many business sites are impossible to even navigate, because there's no way past the Flash entry screen. The sensible ones have a skip intro link, but a lot of them don't. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
Am Donnerstag 18 Mai 2006 16:09 schrieb SamFeltus: I guess there isn't much to understand. Sure, there's a lot to understand here. What I guess you can't come to terms with is the fact that the web (hell, the whole Internet) isn't designed for Windows personal computers only, but for a whole range of computer systems which need to interoperate. For that, you need standards. And: Flash isn't one, and will never become one. Simply, because it's full of bad design decisions, and because the company that has the power over Flash doesn't want to make it an open standard. At least I don't see that happen any time soon. If you are satisfied with a text based, static image web, that is light on artistic possabilities, all that HTML stuff is acceptable. Are you actually familiar with what you can do with JavaScript and HTML/CSS? CSS is pretty powerful. Hell, it's very powerful, even. And: why do I need animated graphics to convey _information_ to a user? I don't surf the web to have the feeling of walking through an art gallery, but rather surf the web to gather information I need for my daily life. And: HTML is designed for that explicitly. CSS too (as in proper presentation of the content you're trying to convey to the user). And even JavaScript is designed to deal with _content_, not with pretty but meaningless graphical imagery. I'm not saying that graphics can't convey meaning. But: the tools to deal with images are sufficiently advanced in HTML and CSS that I can display any kind of graphic imagery I need to convey the information to the user. Perhaps the HTML/JS group will even get off their rear ends and bring some decent cross platform graphics capabilities to the web one decade? Perhaps even bring some 90's style graphics to the browser one decade? Same as before: do you actually know what the HTML group (well, the W3C) is doing? They are a very active group, have designed an open format for vector graphics (SVG, which has been referenced here before), and actually have the guts to stand up to MickeySoft and their lackeys to keep the format open, and to keep development of further extensions open. This is technological advancement at work. Not some company like Macromedia trying to design a proprietary, insufficiently engineered format, that's just there so that people who think they need to burry the information they are trying to convey to the user in graphic imagery so that noone will notice that there's no actual content in what they are trying to tell you. --- Heiko. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python - Web Display Technology
SamFeltus wrote: I guess there isn't much to understand. If you are satisfied with a text based, static image web, that is light on artistic possabilities, all that HTML stuff is acceptable. Perhaps the HTML/JS group will even get off their rear ends and bring some decent cross platform graphics capabilities to the web one decade? Perhaps even bring some 90's style graphics to the browser one decade? Well, various browsers do support SVG to differing extents, and some of the best graphical systems of the 1990s were highly oriented around vector graphics. Not that SVG is necessarily ready or suitable for every kind of application, but it's probably the best hope for a display technology that fits in with the general Web conceptual model, unlike the messing around having canvas elements just so one can program applet-like stuff in JavaScript, ultimately leading up to the day when someone writes a Web browser to run in a canvas element. But as for Flash: even if one suppresses the legitimate sentiment that Flash is a dirty, proprietary technology originating from a mindset that can best be described as we don't get this Web thing - let's just dump some multimedia gadget into a Web page, there's almost nothing as annoying on the Web as going to a site laden with Flash adverts, having the browser stop in its tracks (like Michael Schumacher turning the corner to find the track drenched in treacle), in order to fire up the dancing, audio-infused animations of meaninglessness, sometimes bringing the browser itself down with a misfiring interaction through an interface designed for Netscape Communicator. I haven't set up Flash on my computer - not even the open source, reverse-engineered implementations of the technology - despite the increased obsession with various services that want you to run Flash to show movie clips instead of just providing standard video format files, for example. If I visit a site that just has an empty page, because the user experience is just one big Flash applet (usually giving textual information anyway), then as far as I'm concerned, they might as well have a big sign saying we don't get the Web. WC3 at Work - Beware Falling Luddites I'm not saying that the W3C have moved swiftly and decisively to roll out wonderful new technologies on a timely basis - perhaps because the corporate posturing that forms part of any such standardisation initiatives (possibly involving the beloved creators of Flash, whoever owns them now) makes it fairly difficult to do so - but you should at least read up a bit more before coming out with such nonsense. Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
