Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQ/E boot sequence

[Norman Dunbar]

On 17/03/16 11:11, Marcel Kilgus wrote:


Actually I can tell a lot about programmers through the way they
structure and indent their code. Except the missing spaces in the for
loop in line 428 this is as spotless as I've ever seen it ;)


Are you sure you were looking at my code? ;-) (But thanks!)
I'll get 428 sorted next time I have a change to make.

Someone once said the same about my SupeBasic code too, I think it was 
my QSAVE'd file decoder, but I might be wrong. I think it's on Dilwyn's 
site somewhere.




Can't
even scold you for the use of strncpy as you've properly documented
it!


It's a well known feature/bug! strcpy() terminates, strncpy() might 
terminate! There's nothing like consistency.




Of course if C is the right language for parsing and emitting
text is another discussion ;)


In this case the utility was for an AIX Unix system with a pretty much 
brain dead C compiler and nothing else, so it had to be C.


Normally for parsing, I'd use ANTRL4, build a grammar and have it 
generate a lexer and parser then inherit the parser and build by 
"compiler" or whatever from that, in Java. Which I absolutely hate! I'm 
waiting for the C/C++ lexer/parser versions to come out, at the moment 
it's Java, Javascript or Python only.


See https://github.com/NormanDunbar/Tnsnames_checker for an even less 
interesting example!


I'm definitely not learning Perl, no way, not now, not ever! :-)


Cheers,
Norm.

--
Norman Dunbar
Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd

Registered address:
27a Lidget Hill
Pudsey
West Yorkshire
United Kingdom
LS28 7LG

Company Number: 05132767
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Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQ/E boot sequence

[pgraf]

On 17 Mar 2016 at 11:33, Marcel Kilgus wrote:

> pg...@q40.de wrote:
> > Thanks for the nice essay. A few remarks:
> >
> > The "LOWRAM" mode of the Q40/Q60, where read access at $0 to $17FFF 
> > is mapped to shadow RAM, was mostly used for ROM emulation in the 
> > early days. The Q60 had to use two 16 bit EPROMs, because the design 
> > rule was strictly without SMD components. No space saving solution 
> > with Flash was possible at the time, since the 68060 needs memory 
> > always 32 bit wide physically, unlike a 68020. The ROM emulation 
> > saved me from having to UV-erase the EPROMs too often.
> 
> I thought it was a handy tool and could maybe utilized more to
> write-protect critical OS code, but so far it isn't and I'm not sure
> why. Perhaps for debugging reasons, although I'm pretty sure QMON
> actually makes use of sms_wbase to be able to write to low RAM.
> 
> I guess there is no speed difference between this part of RAM and
> the rest?

Yes, there's no difference. Only video RAM and non-volatile RAM 
differ in speed.

By the way, on the Q68, FPGA-internal RAM is faster than SDRAM. So 
if SMSQ/E has a fixed area where speed matters, I could try to map 
internal RAM there.

Peter

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Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQ/E boot sequence

[Marcel Kilgus]

pg...@q40.de wrote:
> Thanks for the nice essay. A few remarks:
>
> The "LOWRAM" mode of the Q40/Q60, where read access at $0 to $17FFF 
> is mapped to shadow RAM, was mostly used for ROM emulation in the 
> early days. The Q60 had to use two 16 bit EPROMs, because the design 
> rule was strictly without SMD components. No space saving solution 
> with Flash was possible at the time, since the 68060 needs memory 
> always 32 bit wide physically, unlike a 68020. The ROM emulation 
> saved me from having to UV-erase the EPROMs too often.

I thought it was a handy tool and could maybe utilized more to
write-protect critical OS code, but so far it isn't and I'm not sure
why. Perhaps for debugging reasons, although I'm pretty sure QMON
actually makes use of sms_wbase to be able to write to low RAM.

I guess there is no speed difference between this part of RAM and
the rest?

> On a hardware level, write operations in this mode do not actually 
> fail, and the mainboard does not generate a bus error exception. 
> They take place, but are ignored.

Ah ok, I'll update that to be more precise.

> The CPU does not get its initial instruction pointer from address 
> $8, as mentioned in the blog, but from $4. (The vector at $8 is 
> assigned to the bus error exception.)

Of course, right. It's just that I've done so much 64-bit development
the last week that the second entry for me was naturally at offset 8
:-) Damn.

> Funny that an LRESPRed Q40/Q60 SMSQ/E copies itself to $28480, and 
> not to the more rounded $3 like QPC. And I did not yet know,
> that Q40/Q60 SMSQ/E copies itself twice, not just once.

In this case it has to as the host OS might have loaded the file at a
location where it would be overwritten by the main SMSQ loader (near
RAMTOP).

> I think I can guess the reason why SMSQ/E cleared the first 256 
> bytes of legacy screen RAM at $0002: Debugging!

Yes, I think so, too. But no reason was given in the code :-) But
you're right, it's probably s posh version of "make the LED blink so I
know something is running" I usually have to do when programming by
Atmels ;-)

> After reading the essay, I will add a little new feature to the Q68 
> bootloader. It will not just load "ROM" binaries at $0 (used for 
> QDOS and Minerva), but also "RAM" binaries to $3. This shall 
> save SMSQ/E one self-copy ;)

I think that makes sense, yes. Thinking about it, it might also make
sense to start execution at offset $30004 in this case so LRESPR and
"ROM boot" could easily be distinguished. QPC doesn't have this
feature and actually crashes if you try LRESPR SMSQ/E, but as this is
a new thing anyway...

Cheers, Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQ/E boot sequence

[Dilwyn Jones]

Someone once said the same about my SupeBasic code too, I think it was my 
QSAVE'd file decoder, but I might be wrong. I think it's on Dilwyn's site 
somewhere.
It's at http://www.dilwyn.me.uk/docs/formats/index.html under 'SAV file 
format' but it's not Norman's original. It was slightly hacked by me to add 
one or two SBASIC extras such as binary and hex constants, so it might not 
be up to Norman's usual standards (I can't remember exactly how many changes 
I made...)   8-|


Note: anyone who tries to use the listing in the article, it uses some 
DJToolkit extensions.


Dilwyn




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Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQ/E boot sequence

[pgraf]

Marcel Kilgus wrote:

> For anybody interested: I've just written a short essay about the low
> level boot process of SMSQ/E for anybody daring enough to try to
> understand it:
> 
> http://www.kilgus.net/2016/03/17/smsqe-boot-sequence/
> 
> Cheers, Marcel

Thanks for the nice essay. A few remarks:

The "LOWRAM" mode of the Q40/Q60, where read access at $0 to $17FFF 
is mapped to shadow RAM, was mostly used for ROM emulation in the 
early days. The Q60 had to use two 16 bit EPROMs, because the design 
rule was strictly without SMD components. No space saving solution 
with Flash was possible at the time, since the 68060 needs memory 
always 32 bit wide physically, unlike a 68020. The ROM emulation 
saved me from having to UV-erase the EPROMs too often. 

On a hardware level, write operations in this mode do not actually 
fail, and the mainboard does not generate a bus error exception. 
They take place, but are ignored.

The CPU does not get its initial instruction pointer from address 
$8, as mentioned in the blog, but from $4. (The vector at $8 is 
assigned to the bus error exception.)

Funny that an LRESPRed Q40/Q60 SMSQ/E copies itself to $28480, and 
not to the more rounded $3 like QPC. And I did not yet know, 
that Q40/Q60 SMSQ/E copies itself twice, not just once.

I think I can guess the reason why SMSQ/E cleared the first 256 
bytes of legacy screen RAM at $0002: Debugging! At very early 
stage of firmware development, one usually has no working serial 
driver, nor character output on the screen. The easiest thing to 
generate some debug output is to "poke" to the screen, when the code 
reaches certain locations. At least that's how I worked myself ;-)
Of course one needs to clear that area first, because reset or 
power-off does not reset video memory contents.

After reading the essay, I will add a little new feature to the Q68 
bootloader. It will not just load "ROM" binaries at $0 (used for 
QDOS and Minerva), but also "RAM" binaries to $3. This shall 
save SMSQ/E one self-copy ;)

Peter

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Marcel Kilgus]

Bob Spelten wrote:
> Yesterday I had a similar freeze/crash but I put that down to a fault in
> the program I am updating.
> No QPAC2 File access at that moment.
> So today's QPC2 session started OK but at the time of the crash I was
> using Files (?).

There are about a billion ways to crash SMSQ/E, so I wouldn't count on
your problems being the same. Personally I never had Files crash on me
and even then it's more likely that the device driver is at fault, but
if somebody can reproduce it I can have a look.

Cheers, Marcel



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Re: [Ql-Users] Sqlite C library

[derek]

Hi,

The amalgamated file is too large for C68 in QL environment, you need to cross 
compile in Linux or Windows.

But there  preprocessed file with all the C files in separated. This is more 
suited to QL C68, just need to write the makefile. I am looking at this, Sqlite 
is supposed to be ANSI C so should no problem for C68.

Would the Dbas extensions to Superbasic not do the  same thing. Like write SQL 
statement using Superbasic.


Regards

Derek


 Original message 
From: Norman Dunbar  
Date: 19/03/2016  18:15  (GMT+00:00) 
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com, Massimino Boccardi  
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Sqlite C library 

Hi Massimino,

I looked at this some time back and found that the "all in one" file was far 
too big for C68 to compile so it needed to be split back into its separate 
parts sign and a make file created for it. And that's before looking in the 
code to find out if there's anything that might need some assembly conversions 
etc.

Also, sqlite itself is in two parts, the sqlite utility which allows you to 
create and interrogate databases fom a command line, and the main library which 
allows you to do the same, but from inside your own application. 

I haven't looked at it for a while I'm afraid. 

Have fun.


Cheers,
Norm.

On 18 March 2016 16:26:00 GMT+00:00, Massimino Boccardi 
 wrote:
>Hi.
>Is it possible to recompile the Sqlite 3 library on the QL !?
>
>www.sqlite.org 
>
>Regards,
>Massimino
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Re: [Ql-Users] Sqlite C library

[Norman Dunbar]

Now that I didn't try! :-)


Cheers,
Norm.

On 19 March 2016 18:22:16 GMT+00:00, Giorgio Garabello  
wrote:
>and using the gcc cross compiler?
>
>2016-03-19 19:15 GMT+01:00 Norman Dunbar :
>
>> Hi Massimino,
>>
>> I looked at this some time back and found that the "all in one" file
>was
>> far too big for C68 to compile so it needed to be split back into its
>> separate parts sign and a make file created for it. And that's before
>> looking in the code to find out if there's anything that might need
>some
>> assembly conversions etc.
>>
>> Also, sqlite itself is in two parts, the sqlite utility which allows
>you
>> to create and interrogate databases fom a command line, and the main
>> library which allows you to do the same, but from inside your own
>> application.
>>
>> I haven't looked at it for a while I'm afraid.
>>
>> Have fun.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Norm.
>>
>> On 18 March 2016 16:26:00 GMT+00:00, Massimino Boccardi <
>> massimi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >Hi.
>> >Is it possible to recompile the Sqlite 3 library on the QL !?
>> >
>> >www.sqlite.org
>> >
>> >Regards,
>> >Massimino
>> >___
>> >QL-Users Mailing List
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>> ___
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>>
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Re: [Ql-Users] Sqlite C library

[Giorgio Garabello]

and using the gcc cross compiler?

2016-03-19 19:15 GMT+01:00 Norman Dunbar :

> Hi Massimino,
>
> I looked at this some time back and found that the "all in one" file was
> far too big for C68 to compile so it needed to be split back into its
> separate parts sign and a make file created for it. And that's before
> looking in the code to find out if there's anything that might need some
> assembly conversions etc.
>
> Also, sqlite itself is in two parts, the sqlite utility which allows you
> to create and interrogate databases fom a command line, and the main
> library which allows you to do the same, but from inside your own
> application.
>
> I haven't looked at it for a while I'm afraid.
>
> Have fun.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Norm.
>
> On 18 March 2016 16:26:00 GMT+00:00, Massimino Boccardi <
> massimi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Hi.
> >Is it possible to recompile the Sqlite 3 library on the QL !?
> >
> >www.sqlite.org
> >
> >Regards,
> >Massimino
> >___
> >QL-Users Mailing List
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> ___
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>
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Re: [Ql-Users] Sqlite C library

[Norman Dunbar]

Hi Massimino,

I looked at this some time back and found that the "all in one" file was far 
too big for C68 to compile so it needed to be split back into its separate 
parts sign and a make file created for it. And that's before looking in the 
code to find out if there's anything that might need some assembly conversions 
etc.

Also, sqlite itself is in two parts, the sqlite utility which allows you to 
create and interrogate databases fom a command line, and the main library which 
allows you to do the same, but from inside your own application. 

I haven't looked at it for a while I'm afraid. 

Have fun.


Cheers,
Norm.

On 18 March 2016 16:26:00 GMT+00:00, Massimino Boccardi 
 wrote:
>Hi.
>Is it possible to recompile the Sqlite 3 library on the QL !?
>
>www.sqlite.org 
>
>Regards,
>Massimino
>___
>QL-Users Mailing List

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Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQ/E boot sequence

[Dilwyn Jones]

I won't pretend I understood all of it by any means, but interesting to read 
all the same.


And congratulations on the new look website - very nice.

Dilwyn

-Original Message- 
From: Marcel Kilgus

Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 12:00 AM
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com
Subject: [Ql-Users] SMSQ/E boot sequence

For anybody interested: I've just written a short essay about the low
level boot process of SMSQ/E for anybody daring enough to try to
understand it:

http://www.kilgus.net/2016/03/17/smsqe-boot-sequence/

Cheers, Marcel

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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7497 / Virus Database: 4542/11825 - Release Date: 03/16/16 




-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7497 / Virus Database: 4542/11825 - Release Date: 03/16/16

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Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQ/E boot sequence

[Norman Dunbar]

On 17/03/16 12:09, Dilwyn Jones wrote:


It was slightly hacked by me to
add one or two SBASIC extras such as binary and hex constants, so it
might not be up to Norman's usual standards (I can't remember exactly
how many changes I made...)   8-|


I think, if I remember, that you fixed it for SBASIC's new hexadecimal 
and binary floating point values.



Cheers,
Norm.

--
Norman Dunbar
Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd

Registered address:
27a Lidget Hill
Pudsey
West Yorkshire
United Kingdom
LS28 7LG

Company Number: 05132767
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[Ql-Users] SMSQ/E boot sequence

[Marcel Kilgus]

For anybody interested: I've just written a short essay about the low
level boot process of SMSQ/E for anybody daring enough to try to
understand it:

http://www.kilgus.net/2016/03/17/smsqe-boot-sequence/

Cheers, Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQ/E boot sequence

[Ralf Reköndt]

What I miss in TT's rewritten QSAVE/QLOAD things is the message "xxx xxx xxx 
Extensions missing" as it was with the original QSAVE/QLOAD, if extensions 
used in the _sav were not pre-loaded.


This was always very helpful.

Cheers...Ralf

- Original Message - 
From: "Norman Dunbar"



On 17/03/16 12:09, Dilwyn Jones wrote:


It was slightly hacked by me to
add one or two SBASIC extras such as binary and hex constants, so it
might not be up to Norman's usual standards (I can't remember exactly
how many changes I made...)   8-|


I think, if I remember, that you fixed it for SBASIC's new hexadecimal and 
binary floating point values.



Cheers,
Norm. 


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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Bob Spelten]

Op Fri, 18 Mar 2016 21:17:33 +0100 schreef pjwitte :

Sorry Urs, Bob, I cannot confirm this. To my mind the Qpac2 "apps" are  
some of the most stable programs written for QDOS and SMSQ/E ;)  
Sometimes stuff just happens, but if it happens a lot Id look elsewhere..


Per


Two crashes in two days is uncommon.
As I said, the first could be my own programming error but has not been  
investigated further.
For the second it may have been a coincidence that QPAC2 was involved and  
I only mentioned this because of Urs's suggestion.

I just hope it's not the start of a pattern.

Bob

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Bob Spelten]

Op Fri, 18 Mar 2016 16:29:03 +0100 schreef ql :

Just days ago I experienced the same. In my case QPC2 was still in the  
Windows Task Manager. I killed it there and then a fresh start opened  
the QXL.win and properly booted up.


In my case I got the same problem day by day. After investigating it  
looks like there's a bug in QPAC2 Files which causes SMSQ/E to freeze.


Urs


Thanks all for the quick response.

There were no zombies found in Task Manager.
With Total Commander I could copy the .WIN without errors.

Restarting W$7 did restore my .WIN to normal and QPC2 booted as before.
Also the _dbs was accessible again.
Lucky me.

Yesterday I had a similar freeze/crash but I put that down to a fault in  
the program I am updating.

No QPAC2 File access at that moment.
So today's QPC2 session started OK but at the time of the crash I was  
using Files (?).


Bob

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Wolfgang Lenerz]

On 03/18/2016 04:12 PM, Bob Spelten wrote:Hi,

the first thing to do with windowsin these cases is to reboot windows

It sounds as if the file was still marked as opened by another program.

Try copying it to another directory.

HTH

Wolfgang



Hi All,

Today, while working in QPC2 on my W$7 system, SMSQ/E suddenly froze.
No mouse movement, no keys and Sysmon had stopped.
I could kill the QPC2 task with the [x] button but it would not restart
my boot.
QPC2 & SMSQ/E do start but WIN1_ cannot be mounted anymore ("not found").

I then checked this with another QPC2 but the QXL.WIN could not be
mounted with WIN_DRIVE there too. SMSQmulator however, where it's
normally mounted as WIN7_, reports it as "read only" but I can list the
files and view their contents.

In W$7 I can View the .WIN file (Total Commander /View) but when
mounting that directory with DOS_DRIVE in QPC2, viewing the .WIN file
from QPAC2/Files gave an "in use" error.
My other .WIN drives there are OK.

Does anyone know what happened here and how I can fix this?
There was a channel to a BDAS file open on WIN1_ at the time but this
has never been a problem when SuQcess2 crashed in the past. Never lost a
_dbs that way.

Bob


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Re: [Ql-Users] SMSQ/E boot sequence

[Norman Dunbar]

On 17/03/16 10:47, Marcel Kilgus wrote:


Not sure how much I'll really use the blog, but it might come handy
now and then, like it has now.


I use mine to make up for a deficiency in remembering stuff. I keep 
trying to learn new stuff, so the older stuff "ages out of the cache"!


I had to do some C programming recently, and I was completely unable to 
get started after "int main(int argc, char *argv[]) {" - I simply 
couldn't remember! I got there in the end - 
https://github.com/NormanDunbar/TraceMiner - but the C quality is 
probably dubious!


The link about will be of interest to even less people here than your 
SMSQ/E Boot Sequence post!


It's handy for me to have a blog as I can (usually) access it from 
whichever contract I'm working on at the time, so I have my notes with 
me. As ever though, you end up using it for many things other than work.


Enjoy.


Cheers,
Norm.

--
Norman Dunbar
Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd

Registered address:
27a Lidget Hill
Pudsey
West Yorkshire
United Kingdom
LS28 7LG

Company Number: 05132767
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