Re: [ql-users] Toolkit II
- Original Message - From: Daniele Terdina [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 11:28 PM Subject: [ql-users] Toolkit II I don't think there is potential for selling copies of TK2 anymore, nor that a freely available TK2 would hurt SMSQ/E, as SMSQ/E is so much more advanced and caters to a different type of users. A public statement about TK2 being free for non-commercial use would benefit users of emulators that are interested in running early QL programs requiring TK2 extensions, and at the same time preserve copies of the TK2 for its historical and educational value. Thank you Daniele for raising the subject - it is for sure on behalf of people such as me who came much later into contact with the QL, want to learn something about how it works or just play around with it for a while. If I look back at my very first steps into QL world then the most valuable ressources from the beginning on were probably QLAY and the website with QL documentation by Dilwyn Jones (because my first real QL, purchased through ebay, came without a manual). I still appreciate Qlay very much as a good starting point - it would have been an incredible starting point for newcomers if it was packaged with a TK2 rom and a documentation for both the bare QL plus TK2 commands as PDF document! That raises another question: are the copyrights for QL manual and for TK2 manual in the hands of the same persons as those for the QDOS / TK2 software itself? Kind Regards, Michael ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.quanta.org.uk/mailing.htm
Re: [ql-users] Toolkit II
On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:34:38 +0200, Michael Berger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Daniele Terdina [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 11:28 PM Subject: [ql-users] Toolkit II I don't think there is potential for selling copies of TK2 anymore, nor that a freely available TK2 would hurt SMSQ/E, as SMSQ/E is so much more advanced and caters to a different type of users. A public statement about TK2 being free for non-commercial use would benefit users of emulators that are interested in running early QL programs requiring TK2 extensions, and at the same time preserve copies of the TK2 for its historical and educational value. Thank you Daniele for raising the subject - it is for sure on behalf of people such as me who came much later into contact with the QL, want to learn something about how it works or just play around with it for a while. If I look back at my very first steps into QL world then the most valuable ressources from the beginning on were probably QLAY and the website with QL documentation by Dilwyn Jones (because my first real QL, purchased through ebay, came without a manual). I still appreciate Qlay very much as a good starting point - it would have been an incredible starting point for newcomers if it was packaged with a TK2 rom and a documentation for both the bare QL plus TK2 commands as PDF document! That raises another question: are the copyrights for QL manual and for TK2 manual in the hands of the same persons as those for the QDOS / TK2 software itself? Kind Regards, Michael Look here: URL:http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/std/faq/copyright/protect_expiry.htm here: URL:http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/std/faq/copyright/what.htm and here: URL:http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/std/faq/copyright/exceptions.htm Of course regarding the manuals, theoretically they are still copyrighted at least until 2008 however due to permission given by Amstrad plc. they can be distributed (like the ROMs) provided Amstrad's copyright is mentioned. In any case they would be distributable as they would fall under fair use (Educational and referential mainly - since they are not available anyway and they weren't for sale to begin with). TK2 copyright will not expire until at least 2010 (I believe that it was made available in 1985) however IIRC TK2 has been released to the public by TT... Of course I may be wrong on the latter. (TT?) QDOS and TK2 are copyrighted by different entities AFAIK... As QDOS belongs to Amstrad plc (Sinclair that is but all rights were sold to them therefore it's Amstrad) and TT was acting as their agent (of course that's subject to his individual agreement with Sinclair Research so only he can actually tell us :-) ) regardless of what percentage of QDOS was written by him (ie SuperBasic is the work of Jan Jones) it falls under a different category of intellectual property law. The general rule on that is: If you're contracted/working for a company unless specified otherwise, the work produced while working for the company belongs to the company and not you... ie. the laurels of creation belong to you but it's purely academic and has not bearing in determination of financial ownership... On the other hand SMSQ/e, TK2, the PE etc belong to TT (and any other persons that contributed to that work which were independent of Sinclair Research at the time - of course always subject to individual agreements within QJump's confines which again only TT would know- so for all purposes TK2, PE, SMSQ/e etc are (c) Tony Tebby ) ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.quanta.org.uk/mailing.htm
Re: [ql-users] Toolkit II
TK2 copyright will not expire until at least 2010 (I believe that it was made available in 1985) however IIRC TK2 has been released to the public by TT... Of course I may be wrong on the latter. (TT?) IIRC the TK2 version that is on Dylwin's emulators CDROM is OK to use with emulators. I had asked this TT and Jochen, but Dylwin should know better. Arnould ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.quanta.org.uk/mailing.htm
Re: [ql-users] Toolkit II
I don't think there is potential for selling copies of TK2 anymore, nor that a freely available TK2 would hurt SMSQ/E, as SMSQ/E is so much more advanced and caters to a different type of users. A public statement about TK2 being free for non-commercial use would benefit users of emulators that are interested in running early QL programs requiring TK2 extensions, and at the same time preserve copies of the TK2 for its historical and educational value. Thank you Daniele for raising the subject - it is for sure on behalf of people such as me who came much later into contact with the QL, want to learn something about how it works or just play around with it for a while. If I look back at my very first steps into QL world then the most valuable ressources from the beginning on were probably QLAY and the website with QL documentation by Dilwyn Jones (because my first real QL, purchased through ebay, came without a manual). I still appreciate Qlay very much as a good starting point - it would have been an incredible starting point for newcomers if it was packaged with a TK2 rom and a documentation for both the bare QL plus TK2 commands as PDF document! That raises another question: are the copyrights for QL manual and for TK2 manual in the hands of the same persons as those for the QDOS / TK2 software itself? Of course regarding the manuals, theoretically they are still copyrighted at least until 2008 however due to permission given by Amstrad plc. they can be distributed (like the ROMs) provided Amstrad's copyright is mentioned. In any case they would be distributable as they would fall under fair use (Educational and referential mainly - since they are not available anyway and they weren't for sale to begin with). TK2 copyright will not expire until at least 2010 (I believe that it was made available in 1985) however IIRC TK2 has been released to the public by TT... Of course I may be wrong on the latter. (TT?) I was givena very limited permission to include an older, cut down TK2 on the QL Emulators CD. As far as I know, it only ever extended to the CD, which is why I never put TK2 on my website or any other CD or PD library. Also, please remember that the distribution permission given for the QL ROMs and manuals by Amstrad were only theirs to grant for the area they handled them, i.e. Europe. For USA/Canada for example, rights ro the QL ROMs and manuals are held by Paul Holmgren and Frank Davies who should be approached for permission to include or distribute the manuals or ROMs. There are examples of when people have correctly and reasonably asked for permission that the permission has been granted by these rights holders. When it comes to older manuals, copyright holders are sometimes only too glad to allow them to be put on websites etc as it saves them having to produce copies of older manuals for users who request them. Generally, many people will allow a limited distribution as long as they retain copyright to the material in question, that they are credited, that you do not make a profit from it and that you are considerate enough to ask them nicely! That said, if you just assume that because it's old, they won't mind, you are likely to find yourself at wrong end of a solicitor's letter I suppose. Rights to TK2 are held by different people to the QL ROM and manuals, i.e. Sinclair/Amstrad for QL ROM/manual and Tony Tebby for TK2. -- Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.quanta.org.uk/mailing.htm
Re: [ql-users] Toolkit II
TK2 copyright will not expire until at least 2010 (I believe that it was made available in 1985) however IIRC TK2 has been released to the public by TT... Of course I may be wrong on the latter. (TT?) IIRC the TK2 version that is on Dylwin's emulators CDROM is OK to use with emulators. I had asked this TT and Jochen, but Dylwin should know better. Arnould IIRC, it was only ever permission for inclusion on the QL Emulators CD for use with the emulators on it. I don't think it would allow me to supply it in any other way (e.g. PD library or website) or that it would allow Daniele Terdina, Richard Zidlicky and other emulator authors to include it either witht heir emulators or from their website. Some time has passed since then, of course it might have changed by now... Since the QL Emulators CD is itself freeware (i.e. it can be copied freely) it does seem a difficult situation. I'm not sure if the emulator authors could technically say if you want TK2, get a copy of the Emulators CD, but I suppose the copyright holder could then say that as the TK2 isn't being used with an emulator which didn't come off the CD (e.g. a full registered version or a later version than on the CD) the situation might be less than clear cut. Over to the legal team for advice! -- Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.quanta.org.uk/mailing.htm
Re: [ql-users] Toolkit II software on a real QL
- Original Message - From: Wolfgang Lenerz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 6:46 AM Subject: Re: [ql-users] Toolkit II software on a real QL IIRC, TK2s loaded as files didn't need any value placed in the register on startup. Thanks for your hints, Wolfgang - what means IIRC ? In the meantime tried to dig a bit deeper into the problem: as I found out any ROM to plug into QDOS begins with the long word 4AFB0001 at its (relative) zero address - Guess that is just a random pattern with low probability to be there accidentally? Or is it 'I_HATE_WINDOWS_XP' coded in an unusual number base? (just kidding) The software TK2 that I have got begins with some prefix code before the official rom start. I guess 'software TK2' was hacked software, or was TK2 officially sold on disk as software version? Here is the boring part: I managed to find an old monitor program on one of my QL disks (QL monitor 3.5 by digital precision, 1984). Nice program. The only feature that i miss is a search string (or byte sequence) function. Guess later versions did have that, 1984 is quite early for QL software. The software version is different from the rom version by the following prefix code: * prefix code of the software TK2 entrymove.ld1,a3 parameter #2 passed from SuperBasic call instruction, points to rom_start cmpi.l#4afb0001,(a3) see if rom start sequence is as expected bneexit nope, there is something REALLY going wrong!!! ( will this ever happen?) move.w 4(a3),d0 ? beqmark1obviously this makes the code panic... (why are 68008s so shy...) lea 0(a3,d0.l),a1 ? move.w 110,a2 110 is call code for jsr (a2) the vectored utility routine BP.INIT - link addl. stuff into SuperBasic mark1 suba.l a0,a0 clear address register #0 - no idea why - is this a return code??? move.w 6(a3),d0 beq exit ? jsr 0(a3,d0.l) exitrts here ends the prefix code and starts the TK2 rom code rom_startfrom here on starts the original TK2 rom code, at an offset of 40 (decimal) bytes from 'entry' dc.l4afb0001 official pattern for start of a rom image (?) Sorry for being boring, but would be thankful for any comments on the parts that I do not understand (marked with one or many ?) Kind regards Michael ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.quanta.org.uk/mailing.htm
Re: [ql-users] Toolkit II software on a real QL
- Original Message - From: Wolfgang Lenerz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 6:46 AM Subject: Re: [ql-users] Toolkit II software on a real QL IIRC, TK2s loaded as files didn't need any value placed in the register on startup. Thanks for your hints, Wolfgang - what means IIRC ? sorry - guess IIRC probably means If I remember Correctly realised that only after I already had pressed the send button. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.quanta.org.uk/mailing.htm
Re: [ql-users] Toolkit II software on a real QL
On 20 Jul 2004 at 23:08, Michael Berger wrote: (...) Thanks for your hints, Wolfgang - what means IIRC ? (You answered that one yourself) In the meantime tried to dig a bit deeper into the problem: as I found out any ROM to plug into QDOS begins with the long word 4AFB0001 at its (relative) zero address - Guess that is just a random pattern with low probability to be there accidentally? It is also an invalid MC instruction , so should never happen if there is some real code there. The software TK2 that I have got begins with some prefix code before the official rom start. I guess 'software TK2' was hacked software, or was TK2 officially sold on disk as software version? Yes it was. I suspect, though, that your version is some kind of hacked (stolen) version, probably extracted from a disk interface. The software version is different from the rom version by the following prefix code: This is what makes me suspect this is a hacked version, the prefix code behaves more or less like the Ql's ROM initilisation code Perhaps more becomes clearer if you know the structure of an expansion ROM: offset typeinfo 0 long word marker : $4afb0001 4 wordpointer to basic procedures that must be initialized 6 wordpointer to MC routine to be called upon initilisation of the ROM 8 wordlength of ROM name 10 bytes name * prefix code of the software TK2 entrymove.ld1,a3 parameter #2 passed from SuperBasic call instruction, points to rom_start cmpi.l#4afb0001,(a3) see if rom start sequence is as expected bneexit nope, there is something REALLY going wrong!!! ( will this ever happen?) move.w 4(a3),d0 any new basic keywords to link in? beqmark1 no basic procs lea 0(a3,d0.l),a1 ? there are basic procs, point to them now move.w 110,a2 110 is call code for jsr (a2) the vectored utility and link them in mark1 suba.l a0,a0 clear address register #0 - no This isn't strictly necessary - but in the QL's ROM init code, you'd also find here the instructions to print out the name fo the ROM, which are generally printed to channel #0, and zeroing A0 means that this is the channel ID of channel 0 idea why - is this a return code??? move.w 6(a3),d0 any code to be called ? beq exit ? no jsr 0(a3,d0.l) yes, do it exitrts here ends the prefix Kind regards Wolfgang -- W. H. Lenerz www.scp-paulet-lenerz.com -- ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.quanta.org.uk/mailing.htm
Re: [ql-users] Toolkit II software on a real QL
On 19 Jul 2004 at 22:44, Michael Berger wrote: (...) 1) Is it possible to PEEK the TK2 software out of the rom of the sandy interface and save it to disk (in order to use with the PCML interface attached)? It might be possible, if you know the length of the file the starting point. I don't know either. 2) On one of the disks I have found such a file, however that is only V2.05 - from what version number on can TK2 be considered a mature (stable) software? I think 2.05 was already pretty good! 3) The disk based file I have (V2.05 mentioned above) gets loaded with a command sequence c=respr(16896) lbytes flp1_tk2_bin,c call c,c+40 Two questions regarding that sequence: a) how can i determine the valid equivalent for the first number, in case i peek the newer TK2 out of the sandy interface (16K would be 16384, which is the size for the QL's rom extention port - probably the additional bytes are for a purpose?) They certainly are. They just correspond to the length of the file which, obviously, is longer than 16 K. You would have to know the equivalent length in your Sandy board to peek it out... b) what does the second parameter in the call statement do - and can I rely that the offset of 40 is also valid for newer TK2 versions? Not necessarily. The second arameter is the value that goes into D1: CALL can accept up to 13 long word parameters which will be placed into the 68008 data and address registers (D1 to D7, A0 to A5) in sequence. For parameters omitted, 0 will be assumed. IIRC, TK2s loaded as files didn't need any value placed in the register on startup. Wolfgang ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.quanta.org.uk/mailing.htm
